June 4, 2024 • 54 mins
In this episode of the Living Out Loud Discussion Series, I chat with Arlene Limas, a lifelong martial artist, Olympic gold medalist, and violence prevention expert. There was so much to learn when we unpacked the spectrum of violence in professional settings. Topics like the concept of 'human safety skills,' barriers to addressing violence in at work, the critical role of bystander intervention, and the challenges faced by middle management in implementing these changes we the highlights for me. I believe there is helpful, practical takeaways for people responsible for and contributing to creating safe and healthy cultures.
Our Guest
Deemed one of the greatest Taekwondo athletes of the 20th century, Arlene Limas made history on September 17, 1988, when she became the first American, the first female to win a Gold Medal at the 24th Olympic Games in Seoul, Korea, in the sport of Tae Kwon Do. In May of 1993, Arlene opened her own school, Power Kix Martial Arts, located in Stafford, breaking the glass ceiling for other women. After several expansions, her current 12,500 sq ft facility has been kicking, literally, for 30 years.
Arlene Limas seeks to advocate for personal safety and empower entire corporations in her role as the CEO of PAVE Prevention. Her vision is to connect high-level programming with corporations and organizations, addressing counterproductive work behaviors that may lead to low productivity, tardiness, absenteeism, and high turnover. PAVE’s evidence-based, trauma-informed programming will empower employees and members with the tools for better performance, stronger engagement, and healthier work culture.
Share this episode with people so they can learn with you- use it as a discussion tool with groups, teams, supervisors, and your network. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and follow us across our platforms!
To get in touch with Arlene Limas, you can contact her here:
- Website: www.paveprevention.com
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arlene-limas-oly-414a657b/
Episode Chapters:
00:00 Setting the Stage
01:24 Introducing Arlene Limas
04:18 Human Safety Skills
05:21 Violence Prevention in DEI Work
09:07 Real-Life Scenarios and Training
11:53 Creating Safe and Supportive Work Environments
28:42 Workplace Struggles and Mental Health
30:43 Building Trust and Accountability in Teams
31:48 Leadership and Accountability
39:36 Middle Management Challenges
42:26 Practical Steps for Violence Prevention
50:00 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Arlene, you keep sayingmicroaggressions and you
(00:02):
keep saying microaggressions,but when you're going
through that, that feelslike a micro disaster.
When you're the one who'sgetting bullied day in and day
out, the term microaggressionseems almost minimalized,
minimizing it, when theperson is going through it.
It truly is death by 10, 000paper cuts and it's brutal.
(00:22):
Hey, welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
Today, we are talking aboutviolence prevention as part
of DEI work in professionalsettings, and we'll be
talking with Arlene Limas.
I'll introduce her in a moment.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a Relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
(00:42):
and issues that come up invarious professional settings
or in those places where we feellike we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
layers and the nuances in thoseinteractions so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts, views,the things that I share in
today's discussion, those are myown and not as a representative
(01:05):
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
All right.
With me, I have Arlene Limas.
(01:27):
Thank you so, so muchfor being here today.
having me.
I'm excited aboutthis conversation.
Me too.
Me too.
I met you not that long ago.
We were at a networkingevent and I actually
met you prior to that.
We were on a panel togetherand you and I connected
one on one prior to that.
And as soon as you startedtelling me your story and
(01:50):
your journey, even though Idid not know you, I felt, I
just felt like I knew you.
You are very, engagingand honest and authentic.
And I remember being soexcited to meet you in person.
And then when I did, Ijust, you have a presence.
You have an honest andauthentic presence.
(02:12):
And I feel like I learn from youwhenever I share space with you.
I've never told you that,but I want you to know that
it's, I'm not making that up.
That is so real.
So I am already knowingwe're going to have
a good convo today.
Yeah, our conversationsare always great.
And likewise, I feel like wehave a real connection, even
(02:33):
over Zoom when we first met.
But then when we did have theopportunity to share some space
on that panel, it was fantastic.
And you did a fantasticjob moderating that
panel, by the way.
But yeah, that was agreat, a great event
for us to connect that.
And then this continuedrelationship that we have, it's
been
great.
Yes.
Thank you for the compliments.
(02:54):
All right.
Would you mind introducingyourself, share anything that
you would like before we begin?
Sure, my name is Arlene Limas.
I, I always start off myintroduction with I'm a
lifelong martial artist.
I don't know lifewithout martial arts.
I started when I was five.
So I have really not much memoryof not kicking and punching, or
being in a martial arts school,or learning about martial arts.
(03:18):
And it's really shaped me.
It shaped me in my philosophy,but it's also shaped me
in my fitness as martialarts then evolved for a
sport, to a sport for me.
And I competed all aroundthe world, winning a gold
medal in the Olympics in 1988for the sport of Taekwondo.
And then led me to coaching.
(03:38):
I was one of the nationalcoaches for several years,
teaching and coaching.
And all that time,
as a young martial artist,as a young athlete, I started
to notice things like coachespulling me aside and saying,
hey, you need to stay away fromthat person, or identifying
inappropriate relationships.
(03:58):
So I began selfadvocating first.
And then advocating fora team that I may have
been on or my athletes.
And really just trying tocreate safer spaces and
safer relationships sothat people could thrive.
In that realm, it was tobe a good martial artist
or a great athlete orachieve your goals in sport.
And now the realm that I'musing is to create safer spaces
(04:21):
in the workplace with whatwe call human safety skills.
So learning how to set aboundary, learning how to use
your voice, learning how tohave the communication skills
to be a good bystander orupstander, those type of things.
And just really it's inits simplest form, really
understanding that you bringyourself into every event and
(04:46):
the good and the bad, right?
You bring all yourexperiences into that.
And if you could justunderstand when you're a little
adrenalized, when you're feelinga little tense or sweaty, that
that's influencing how you'reinteracting in that event.
And that does a lot.
Hmm.
You I want to actuallyremember this term.
You just said it, you referredto it as safety somethings.
(05:09):
Safety something.
Human safety skills.
Yeah, that's what we call it.
Yeah.
Human safety skills.
I'm going to haveto remember that.
I remember even in preparingfor this conversation,
we were talking aboutviolence prevention.
There was a light bulb thatwent off for me that a lot of
DEI work is about the concepts-
(05:29):
it's, it's aboutviolence prevention.
It's just not atop, not a topic.
It's not a term I used.
And I started thinking abouthow we refer to trust and safety
building in the workplace andsome of the aspects of learning
self and your own responses and,and all of that other stuff.
And I think a really cool placeto start or a good place to
(05:51):
start is talking about that,like violence prevention.
Like, what is it?
Why aren't we talking about itthat explicitly in workplaces?
Might be able todemystify some of that.
So if you have anything to shareon it, that would be so helpful.
Well, first of all, I think theword violence is really strange.
It just creates so muchpushback for people to
(06:14):
have to acknowledge thatviolence is happening.
If it's happening in theirhome, if it's happening in
their workplace, if it'shappening in their neighborhood,
everybody has so much pushback.
And I think that's whatperpetuates it so strongly that
we don't just acknowledge it.
Violence is happening every day.
And remember, OSHA describesviolence, the definition of
(06:35):
violence, is everything frommicroaggression to full blown
physical or psychological event.
It doesn't have to be anactive shooter situation
in the workplace to beconsidered violence.
It can be a form of bullying.
It can be gaslighting.
It can be mistreatmentby omission.
If someone is being omittedfrom meetings or activities.
(06:57):
All those things fall underthe definition of violence.
And I would argue it's thoseThings on this side of the
spectrum, like microaggressions,bullying, gaslighting, that
lead up to those physical eventsor lead up to a person just
leaving or not being present.
They're there, butthey're not present.
(07:18):
So all those things influencethe workplace, its productivity,
and your experience there.
Violence is occurring every day.
We need to stop pushing backon it, shed some light on
it, have discussions aboutit, and really, that's where
the change is going to come.
That's, in my humble opinion...
Yes.
No, I get that.
I, there are certain things thatI feel this is true and I don't
(07:42):
care what people think about it.
And then I recognizeit's, it's my opinion,
Yeah.
Yeah.
But also, there's so muchtruth to what you're saying.
Like saying violence feelsso, like, almost charged.
I liken it to when people say orexperience someone saying white
supremacy culture, it comeswith like, it's, it's too much.
(08:05):
It's too serious.
But violence is super serious.
It's just not the termthat I hear a lot.
And even though I don't hearit, that doesn't mean it's
not actually what's happening.
And those, I don't know,there's some people in my
circles or places that I teach.
(08:26):
There's some people thatare very clear and confident
in using that language.
And I can see and feel in groupsthat there's this feeling of
why, like, why is it so serious?
I get that that's not agood thing, but why are
we saying violence if,because people associate.
Like you said, thosebigger types of incidents.
(08:46):
So I appreciate even thatspectrum of it could be
the things that we thinkare very small, all the
way to these larger things.
And often those smallerthings build up to
something more significant.
And it's death by, to me,it's death, death by 10,
000 paper cuts, right?
That's, that's how itfeels when you're in it.
(09:07):
And I had a, we havean incredible advisor,
advisory team for PAVE.
And one of the gentlemen, Dr.
Pete Marghella, he'sdone a lot of disaster
preparedness, through several,White House, changeovers.
So he's worked withseveral administrations.
And he's well aware ofwhat it feels like to be
a survivor of violence.
And, he shared at one point,Arlene, you keep saying
(09:28):
microaggressions and youkeep saying microaggressions,
but when you're goingthrough that, that feels
like a micro disaster.
When you're the one who'sgetting bullied day in and day
out, the term microaggressionseems almost minimalized,
minimizing it, when theperson is going through it.
It truly is death by 10, 000paper cuts and it's brutal.
(09:50):
And if you're looking, look atthe healthcare sector, right?
Nurses, let's just, let'sjust use nurses because
it's prevalent throughoutevery position within
the healthcare sector.
They're, they're dealing withharassment from coworkers.
They're dealing with violencewith a family member that has
at their wits end because aloved one is sick or hurt.
(10:12):
They're dealing with patientsthat may not have all their
faculties and they're violent.
And
we're not supporting them.
We're not, we're, we're, we'renot helping them with those,
those violent events thatthey're dealing with every
day.
Mmm.
Mmm.
I know we probablywill get into this.
I was just havingmy own thought.
Like just this weekI was in a situation.
(10:34):
No, not this week, last week.
I was in a meeting,something happened.
And I had this response.
This response wasn'tabout that moment.
It wasn't, it was alot of things that
contributed to the moment.
And I, I just had this responseand then I had to talk my way
through it with this groupof people and I realized, you
(10:56):
know what, because of thesethings and then other stuff
that had nothing to do withthe people in the setting,
I was just so activated.
I was like, I didn'twant to hear one more
thing about that topic.
That's enough.
Like, it just was so much.
Yeah.
we bring ourselves, we bringourselves to every event.
(11:17):
And you brought yourself.
The good thing is, is thatyou realized it, you realized
it and you were able to havea conversation about it.
Those are the type of cultureswe're trying to create.
And I know you're trying tocreate those cultures as well.
I mean, no one is perfect.
We, again, we have anotherperson in our network and I
love this saying, we need tonormalize mistakes and have
conversations around intent.
We
(11:37):
I
love that
Yes, I do too.
When she shared that, whenshe shared that statement,
how nice would it be, ifwe could just like really,
truly feel comfortablegoing, man, I made a mistake.
A lot of places youdon't have that luxury.
So, but we do, we do, andthis is a big conversation
that we have and we try toinstill in our trainings
(11:59):
is- why am I feeling theway I feel right now?
What are my expectations?
Especially when we'reworking, I'll use the example.
We've done some trainingwith the Oakland Community
Responder Program called MACRO.
We gave them a checkin process, like how to
check into every event.
Like, before you go intothat event, have these series
(12:22):
of questions for yourself.
So you're ready, right?
You're like, whatis my best outcome?
What am I looking for?
I've just got a call foran unhoused person who's
not wearing much clothingand what is the outcome
you're looking for?
And then going through likeseveral of the people who
went through the traininghad been unhoused at
(12:43):
some point in their life.
So they're bringingthat to that process.
They're bringing thatto that call right then.
So have that littlechecklist with yourself
before you enter the event.
What do I want out of this?
How am I feelingreally about it?
So that then you can go insafely to that event, not
sidetracked, not adrenalized ina way that could hurt your own
(13:07):
safety while you're responding.
It seems simple, but it's,what's going on here?
What's going on here?
What's going on?
That's the question we tellpeople to ask all the time.
What's going on here?
Is it, is it me?
Is it, how am I enteringinto this situation?
Oh my gosh.
I love everythingthat you're saying.
(13:27):
And I remember when wewere talking about what
will we talk about todayand how do you frame it?
You had told me we're doinga lot of similar things.
Right.
You said that.
And I knew it was true, but Ididn't know all of the nuances.
And even what you're sayingright now, I love it.
The support to help peopleexperience themselves and
(13:52):
know what's happening inthemselves and then to prepare
before going into something,like how significant that is.
And that impacts then how weinteract with other people,
the people that we're serving,people that we work with.
Oh my gosh, justthank you for that.
I'm also thinking, okay,so there's the aspect of
(14:13):
addressing this in variousprofessional settings,
workplaces that is really great.
And then you also shined alittle light on that it's
not the easiest thing to do.
So I'm also wondering like,what has been your experience
of normalizing violenceprevention, human safety
(14:34):
oh gosh, I forgotour human safety...
safety
skills.
Yeah.
just be like, here's theinformation, everyone go do it.
That's gotta come with greatthings and difficult things.
So what has thatprocess been like?
Well, during ourtraining, we have really
difficult conversations.
We're having thehard conversations.
I remember very clearlya heated situation in
(14:58):
our first macro training,because we had a Caucasian.
One of our trainerswere, was Caucasian.
And one of our train, oneof the macro responders was
really struggling with beingactivated as a paramedic who
has shown up for people ofcolor and shown up for people
(15:22):
who are not of color, andthose people not received her.
And so she was having really,really activation taking
information from this trainer.
It was difficult.
And it just boom, which wasexactly what we wanted it
to do so we could have realconversations around it.
And, by the end of the training,there was this mutual respect.
There was this, I learnedsomething from you, you
(15:43):
learned something from me.
We had the difficultconversations.
And that's what has to happen.
That's what has to happenas people move forward.
One, because it is anacknowledgement that I see
you, I hear you, I get it.
I might not even getit, let me say that.
I might not get it.
But I'm giving you myattention, my respect,
I'm, I'm hearing you.
(16:05):
And that's what a lot,what has to happen.
And then you moveforward from there.
And some of those moves maybe- We ain't going to be here
anymore, but at least there'sa mutual respect that we hear
each other and see each other.
It's important.
Another way that I thinkis really important in our
training is we're deeplyscenario based and we work...
(16:27):
It is our goal in atrauma-informed way
to adrenalize peopleduring these scenarios.
Because, one, we're able to havemore meaningful conversation
post scenario, but two, thelesson lands on our brain
and into our DNA differentlywhen we're adrenalized, and
we retain it much quicker.
(16:49):
So, that's our goalwith our trainings.
And it, it is, we doprobably equal amount of
training as we do grounding.
Because it's that important thatwe do get ourself adrenalized,
but then we're able toground, breathe, refocus, and
really have some meaningfulconversations from them.
But I think that's thesecret sauce for what we do.
(17:10):
In addition to our assessments,all the work we do beforehand
to set the training in avery customizable way, it's
that, it's not a modulethat you're doing on your
computer that's supposedto better very good, yeah.
Oh my gosh, Arlene, youdon't even know how much
you're speaking my language.
(17:30):
Oh my gosh.
Now, I mean, I think thatthis needs to be hit.
This is not a oneanswer and done.
PAVE needs to come in in there.
You need to come in there.
There's, there needs tobe, more team building.
There needs to bemore leadership.
This is, this is truly takinga village approach to how
we create safer culture.
(17:50):
And we haven't even touchedupon the trauma and the pain
of that doesn't happen atwork, but we bring it to
work.
Mm.
Mm
I mean, we haven't even talked
about
that.
Mm hmm.
I actually kind ofwant to do that.
I, oh gosh, I have two thoughts.
I'm like, which one to pick?
(18:11):
Can I just really quicklybranch off and ask you a
question and then I would loveto make sure that we do our
due diligence and talk aboutthe trauma outside of, because
that's absolutely part of it.
When you're talking, I referto what you were describing
as the experiences in thescenario based learning as
experiential learning, andthat that's a thing that is
(18:34):
not as common when teachingpeople this type, this layered
level, this activating type oflife that we all experience.
You can't, you can't just, likeyou said, you can't just get
it in a "watch that video."
There's, you have tofeel it and experience.
(18:55):
So I, I love that conceptof we're creating safety
so that we can createthese experiences where you
feel them in the moment.
Because this is how we'regoing to help you know what
you're experiencing, what itmeans, and how to do something
in a moment and with people.
And my question is, Ithink, what's my question?
(19:17):
I'm going to frame it as astatement than a question.
I haven't seen that that skillset to facilitate that is
very, very common, but I knowthat you and your facilitators
have that skill set developed.
And like, how did you developthe skill set to provide
that type of experienceand learning for people?
(19:38):
Wow.
Well, I'm going to, I'm goingto back us up then and share
with you that this idea ofhuman safety skills and PAVE
prevention and taking thistype of training into the
workplace all came underthe idea that we do most of
our adult learning at work.
So if we can impart theseskills at work and it
(20:00):
does a corporation or abusiness good, fantastic.
But what we really are tryingto do is to create individuals
that have this skill set.
So if it gives you morecohesion at your company, super
duper,
Yeah.
right?
It really was about empoweringthe individual who will then
(20:21):
use these skills everywhere.
So that was the firstthought on PAVE.
How can we get to more people?
Because before PAVE and forthe last 40 or 50 years, there
have been a group of peopledoing empowerment self defense.
And empowerment selfdefense is the skill set,
but really targeted towardsgender-based violence.
(20:42):
And so the community aboutsix or seven years ago created
an incubator where we coulddiscuss how can we get these
skills to other people.
We know we're doinggood with these skills.
We know it's working inthis gender, through this
gender-based violence community.
How can we get itto more people?
Okay.
We're going to, some peopleare going to do this way.
(21:03):
We're going to do trainthe trainer programs.
We're going to do this and we'regoing to take this skill set.
We're going topackage it in a way.
that corporations andinstitutions will listen to us.
And that's how PAVE was born.
And instead of calling itempowerment, self defense, or
instead of calling it somethingthat may push people back, we
created a whole new languagearound it, human safety skills.
(21:27):
Those are the things and that's,that's how PAVE came about.
But it is through yearsand years of people
teaching trauma-informedtraining, adrenalized
training, experience...
what did you call it?
Experiential, Yes.
They have been doing this,our community, the Empowerment
Self Defense community hasbeen taking this style training
for 40 or 50 years now and,and honing their skills,
(21:50):
through suited attackers,through non suited attackers.
So physical contact andnon physical contact.
And, learning the lessonsaccordingly, and that's
where PAVE grew out of.
Wow.
Thank you for sharing that.
And it also makesme think about,
(22:10):
I don't even know how tosay this in a way that
I'm just going to say it.
There's the reality that we haveto learn through the moments
that we're actually trying notto experience, because it's
really hard to learn what to do.
So there's, it also comeswith people desire to not
experience harm or violence,and that makes so much sense.
Who wants to do that?
(22:31):
We're working to notexperience, but in hearing
your journey and even knowingexperiential learning and
what it's meant to do.
We're not going to,how can I say that?
I don't know if we're going toever get to a place where no one
ever does anything, but you weretalking about that co-learning
process and that there'sgoing to be things that we
(22:52):
experience and it's like goingthrough it and learning how to,
how to go through it andhow to keep relationships
intact and if there isharm, how to address it.
So I think what I'm tryingto do is normalize if the
goal is to never experienceanything, it's going to
be really hard to learn.
And it's going to be hard togo through life and hear people
(23:16):
and understand the impact.
And you might not, likeyou said, you might not
know everything that'shappening with someone.
And you might not know thedepth of the impact because
you're not that person.
But could I be here with them?
Could I, could I just bein that moment and learn
from this experience anddo differently later?
And I hope I'm making sense.
No, you are.
(23:37):
Okay.
Okay.
So.
You are.
And I just want to, I'vegot my coach's hat on now.
I've got my athleteand coach hat on.
We try so hard as coaches tocreate a real, competition like
feel in our training, right?
I mean, we'll never beable to do it, but we try
(23:57):
as much as we possibly canso that our athletes are
ready for every scenario.
They feel the pressure.
We, we bring spectatorsinto the workout.
We, we do all these differentthings to try to make it feel
like a real competition day.
And that's really what we'redoing when we're doing our
training is we're tryingto make it as real but safe
(24:18):
as coach, that's what Idid for my athletes, right?
I can't let them fightfull contact every day
and be injured, right?
So I gotta still make it safe.
I've gotta make itsafe for them to train.
Try to internalize someof these skills, but be
a little uncomfortable.
If we're not a littleuncomfortable, we're not gonna
grow.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Okay.
I'm going to have to use thatin various settings, but I
(24:40):
will credit you where thatanalogy came from because
it makes a lot of sense.
Okay.
I want to be responsibleand go back to that other
point that you brought up.
Especially like relating itto when addressing violence
prevention, human safety skillsin an organization, there's
(25:00):
the part that we talked about,and then there's the part that
we hadn't talked about yetthat you lifted up, which is,
and then people have traumaoutside of the workplace,
and that comes with them too.
Could you just share whatthat has been like as a
result of doing that work?
I think one, it's justliterally creating a community
first in your workplace,creating a workplace where
(25:22):
you can have conversations.
And you can say, you knowwhat yesterday was the one
year anniversary of my unclewho was lost to gun violence.
And we had a ceremony yesterday.
I'm probably at about70 percent today.
(25:42):
Create a workplace thatyou're allowed to say that.
My 100 percent today is70 percent and that's what
you're going to get from me.
I promise I'm going toget to 70 percent today.
And again, this comes frommy wearing my sporting
hat, my coaching hat.
Being able to give my athleteswhen they stepped into workout,
every workout, even if wetrained three times that day.
(26:03):
One to ten, how are you feeling?
I'm an eight coach.
Awesome.
Okay.
I'm a six.
I think I did something to myhamstring in the last workout.
I'm a five coach.
I was up all nightwriting two term papers.
So now I know, I knowI'm going to get a five.
And I trust that an athleteis going to give me to five.
(26:24):
Cause that's a hundredpercent for them today.
But it's creating thisculture where you're
allowed to say that, whereyou're allowed to say that.
And then if I were in a teamsetting or a work setting,
I, who am at a 10 today,would pick you up who's a 5.
And tomorrow I might be a 5 andyou might have to pick me up.
But that's the kind ofrelationships and teamwork
(26:47):
we're trying to create.
And we don't have enough, whereno one is allowed to come in
and have that conversation andsay like, man, I'm dragging
today because I'm just hit.
I didn't think it wasgoing to be a big deal.
Yeah.
Just going to the cemetery and,dropping some flowers down.
I thought it would beokay, but I'm not okay.
(27:07):
It's hitting memore than I thought.
I even surprised myself.
I lost my home to afire when I was 14.
And, I remember the dayclearly, but it really hadn't
come on my mind in years.
I was 14 when this happened.
And about six months ago,I'm driving home, see
(27:29):
the big smoke in the air.
And I'm like, wow, there'sa big fire over there.
Drive.
As I get closer, I see thatthe smoke is still on my trail.
It's still on mypath to get home.
I started feeling all thesesame anxious feelings that
I felt like when I was like,driving to, to my home,
(27:50):
knowing that it was on fire.
And it was a blockfrom my mom's home.
So it really createda lot of angst for me.
But I would have neverthought that I would have that
physical change in my body.
Tightening, anxiousness,stress, head pounding.
I had all these real,real changes in my body.
(28:11):
That I hadn't thoughtabout in forever.
I hadn't thought aboutbeing activated by something
like that in forever.
And just like that, Iwas taken right back with
all those same anxietiesand stresses and worry.
So, we, it happens.
I had no idea that I wouldreact to that, like that,
but it happens and peopledo have those struggles.
(28:39):
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, that felt impactful.
And you're also making methink about, you're making
me think about the last fewmonths at, I have a few jobs,
but I, at one of my jobs, I,I just, I've been struggling
so much like personally overthe last few months, it got
to the point where in atwork, I had to say that.
(28:59):
And we are creating the typeof workspace where these
things are okay, but I stillhad my own experience of
having to come to the pointwhere I had to say something.
And oh my gosh, itwas so interesting.
I am certain, I am certainthat most people, if they knew
all the things that I had beendealing with, they'd be very
confused about how I was at workand they would be very confused.
(29:23):
But when I started saying thingslike, I'm not doing well today,
like I could barely be here.
Or this is my way of takingmy mind off of stuff that
I just need a break from.
I started feeling.
Gosh, there's the part ofneeding the space and then
there's a part of using thespace that I think I'm talking
(29:44):
about right now that's,that's also part of the work.
Like, because places cancreate the opportunity in
the room to say these thingsthat we're talking about.
And then because it hasn'tbeen historically something
that workplaces are doing, italso comes with that internal
experience of taking that spacefor yourself and saying it out
(30:05):
loud and what that means becausethat also feels like a risk.
The created space is one part,but using the space and seeing
how it goes is the other part.
And I thankfully had agood experience and it
helped me keep going.
But I'm just thinking,you know what?
People do have a lot ofstuff going on and it
(30:26):
helps to say it out loud.
It helps to be in community.
It helps to be able to belike, I'm not doing well.
I'm not a one, but I'm here.
Is this okay?
Yep.
It's okay.
When we don't hear from you, weknow you're here, but not here.
Great.
Thanks.
I'll check in soon.
Right.
That's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It took a while.
I mean, the example that I gaveof my team, it took a while for
(30:47):
them to get, for my athletesto go- Coach isn't going to
be mad if I say I'm a six.
Or coach isn't going to bemad if I, I mean, you know,
or she's, but really it gavethem, it, I don't know how
to explain it, but, they wereconstantly thinking that when
they were at a five, I wasthinking they were dogging it.
(31:11):
Right.
And by able to say, I'm ata five and then me trusting
that their five was all theycould give me today and being
okay with that as their coach,it just changed everything.
It changed their confidence.
It changed their trust with me.
And when, when you have arelationship of really strong
trust between you and yourathlete, that's when you're able
(31:31):
to go to the next level, right?
And the same thinghappens in the workplace.
That's when you're readyto go to the next level and
achieve things that you didn'tthink you could achieve.
So we've got tocreate those spaces.
The potential
Mm
incredible.
hmm.
Okay.
Look, there's, there's thisquestion I want to ask that
I feel like everywhere I go,leaders have this question.
(31:54):
And I have my own responsesbased on a moment, but I think
you are the person to ask.
Okay.
Workplaces and leaders thatare making room for the human
experience, people coming inwith trauma and that's okay.
There's room there to support.
(32:16):
There's like this, point whereaccountability to work comes up.
It's like, how much can Isupport without it going so
far that there's an employeewho's not able to be here
to contribute to anything.
Like it's people reallystruggle with that.
(32:37):
And I feel like
no, I
understand what you're
no, you go ahead.
we don't want, we don't want, tohurt the rest of our culture, if
people are feeling like they'redoing more, they're carrying
a bigger load, or this personwho is not carrying their load
is not being held accountable.
It's funny, we had, wehave a mutual friend, Dr.
(32:57):
Alonzo Kelly, who, whowas with us at our event.
He has this great ideathat we don't give
accountability rewards.
We just use accountabilityas negatives, like, Oh,
you're not, you're goingto be held accountable.
But when someone doesconsistently be, when they're
accountable for all theiractivities and they're hitting
(33:18):
their goals, we don't give themlike an accountability reward.
Right.
So there is a little bitaround accountability and
leadership that I feelin agreement with Dr.
Kelly, which is we needto acknowledge it more.
We need to say like, man,you're doing a great job.
Right.
And when someone comesin and says, Hey, I
didn't do a good job.
I didn't hit thison all cylinders.
(33:40):
And I get it.
We got to go.
Okay.
Thank you.
That's it.
That's it.
You held yourself accountable.
So I think that'sreally important.
And, it's all thoselittle things, that we
need to acknowledge.
In my sport, it's fastand furious kicking and
punching and spinning.
But really one of the keyfactors is being able to block.
(34:05):
Super key factor, right?
Cause you could haveall those moves.
If you can't block andyou're getting hit a
lot and you're gettingscored on, you're losing.
But blocking is not fun.
So people don't highlight it.
They don't bring it out.
It's not in the stats.
It's not in, as soon as I,as a coach started going,
great block, awesome block.
(34:26):
Everybody's like.
Okay.
Yes, yes.
So, it's acknowledgingall those things.
Even if acknowledging that, youjust held yourself accountable.
Awesome.
There's an accountabilityaward, so yeah, it's, it's,
it's, it's a tough one though.
Again, I believe, if you reallyhave that trust and you believe
(34:49):
in your team, I don't thinkanybody wants to be a slacker.
That's just me.
It's probably adifferent reason.
It's not that theydon't want to work.
It's probably they're inthe wrong place, right?
It's not your passion.
They haven't found their why.
I think if you engage people andthey have found what they want
to do, they will work for you.
If you are, if you areleading them in a way that
(35:10):
you should, or in a positiveway, they'll work for you.
They'll go to bat for you.
My team, my athletes, myfamily, my coworkers, they
go to bat for me, man.
I know it.
I know it.
So, and it's not alwaysabout financial rewards
or, it's, it's about theybelieve in the mission.
(35:30):
They believe in,they're passionate.
We're passionateabout the same things.
Yes, it's so nuanced.
It's person to person, butI like what you're saying.
I also feel like it's importantto say, sometimes when, when
we do something at work,some people sometimes feel
like it negates other things.
(35:51):
So even when you saidwhat you said, praising or
acknowledging accountability.
I feel like that could also comewith people feeling, well, I
wasn't able to do this today.
It doesn't negate other things.
It's in addition to...
I'm just imagining, I justknow, I've seen enough to
know when you lift up onething and you say something's
(36:11):
good than that, how somehowmeans other things are bad.
It doesn't mean that.
It means this is great.
That's what that means.
That's okay.
Exactly.
It's funny, we're workingwith a library system
in Alameda County.
We're doing training withthem and in one of our first
meetings with leadership,they said, we, we really
(36:33):
celebrate mistakes becauseit's a learning opportunity.
And, and the leadershipsaid, we literally go like,
yay, I made a mistake.
We can learn from this.
I was like, that's awesome.
That's incredible.
Like, man, wouldn't, wouldn'tthat be nice if we were
able to do that, right?
That'd be great.
That'd be awesome.
(36:54):
It's just like normalizinghuman experience.
It's all okay.
Like
I appreciate that.
Okay, you, could you share,when we were talking about this
topic, you were saying thatthere's a group of people or
certain people that hold thebrunt of their responsibility
when starting to do this workor when integrating more of that
(37:14):
like violence prevention lens.
Who holds the brunt of theresponsibility to create
this type of change inprofessional settings?
Hmm.
Wow.
I would love to see HR takea leadership, more of a
leadership role, or at least,an interesting role in what,
what this type of change means.
(37:35):
I think that, I think youand I have talked about this
already, that HR initially wasthere to protect the employee.
That's what theywere brought in for.
And then it's morphed a littlebit to now they're almost
there to protect the company.
So if we could find this kindof middle ground for HR again, I
(37:58):
think it could be very powerful.
So one, I think thesequestions about creating
violence preventionprograms or trainings,
or, taking assessment, ofthings like dehumanizing
behavior in your workplace.
I think that needs to come.
It would be very powerful ifit came, if it came from HR.
That's, that's a one, but Ithink I wouldn't even discredit
(38:20):
or discount the, the individualwho says, I'm going to lobby
for a two hour session duringInternational Women's Day.
I think it can come fromevery aspect or every
stakeholder in the company.
But to have really, trulymeaningful change, I think
it needs to be comprehensive.
(38:40):
It needs to be topdown, bottom up.
And it needs to have impact inits policies and procedures.
It's, it's not going to be easy.
this isn't going to beeasy, but we need it.
we're losing so much and we'vehad, we've talked about it.
We're losing so much everyday because people aren't
allowed to deal with violence.
They're not allowedto talk about it.
(39:01):
They're not allowed tohave skills to prevent it.
If you go through our,little pyramid of needs,
safety is that second tier.
After food and water andshelter, safety is it.
So let's create safe spaces.
We can't learn ifwe're not safe.
You know, if our, if ourworkplaces aren't safe,
(39:23):
if our homes aren't safe,we know that, we know it.
But we don't talk about it andwe don't answer that question,
that problem like we should be.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When you had saidtop, down, bottom, up.
I was thinking about just in-What happens is, and you had
shared this with me offlineabout middle management.
And when, when I am thinkingabout middle management,
(39:46):
I'm actually thinking aboutthat in two layers too.
What happens is middlemanagers tend to be two layers.
Or more where there's managersand supervisors who are not
managing a program and thatthere is a lot of responsibility
that falls on both.
But I have noticed that if thereare people who are supervisors,
(40:10):
but not managers, they'reexpected to learn and do a lot
of things without the type ofsupport that even managers get
or access that managers get.
So that's even like atiered part in there.
And I'm wondering, like,what have you seen the impact
on middle managers be whenmaking this type of change?
Because even when there's HRsupport, there's a lot that
(40:34):
comes down to people supervisingand managers to operate
differently, and I'm so curiousabout your thoughts on that.
Hmm.
Well, it's definitely oneof the conversations that
came out of the summit.
So, we try to have theseconversations, to discuss, to
try to de-silo what's going on.
Like, maybe there's somethingwe heard in healthcare violence
(40:57):
prevention in the sector, thehealthcare sector about violence
prevention that can influencethe hospitality sector.
That can influence what'sgoing on in libraries.
And one of the things that keptcoming, no matter what sector
we were talking about, isthis added strain, this added
pressure, this higher levelsof burnout, this disconnect
with middle management.
(41:18):
And the pressure that they'refeeling from the top about
reaching your goals, hittingyour deadlines, and then from
the bottom of, the day to day,day in and out, what's happening
to the, to the employees,coming to middle management.
So it, it has forced us, really,it has propelled us to change
(41:39):
what that working relationshipand our training relationship
is for middle management andcreate something a little
special just for them becauseof this dynamic and this added
pressure they're feeling.
Here I just thought, I've gotto convince my C suite folks
that this is important and tofund it and support it and keep
(41:59):
it in the policies and, andlet me train the individual.
And I we were kind of like,yeah, these guys will get it.
No, they need it more.
They need it more.
They need thede-escalation skills.
They need to make sure thatthey have good grounding
techniques and they needto know that, acknowledge
their own communicationstyle and how they may be
clashing with other people.
So we have refocused a littlebit on middle management there.
(42:22):
mm.
That sounds like a really,really great thing to be doing.
Gives me some thoughts,I'll just put a pin in that
because it's not the pointof right this very second.
I'm thinking about, okay,for people listening, for
people who have a desire todo something different, be it
one person, be it a team, itcould be based on maybe you are
(42:43):
a higher-level person or HR,like what are some practical,
tangible things that peoplecan do, if there is a desire
to, be more violence preventionoriented, human safety skill
oriented, and maybe if it'seven like a recalling back to
some of the things we said,but just tangibly speaking,
(43:05):
like, what can someone do.
I just did this reallyinformal workshop for a
community organizationhere, at their big event.
They have a big gatheringof communities event
here in Chicago.
And we just did a 90 minuteworkshop on putting the
neighbor back in neighborhood.
And it was just talkingabout bystander intervention.
(43:27):
If someone just took thetime to figure out their
bystander skills, I thinkthat would change everything.
I really would.
Because it's a differenttype of confidence.
People don't feelthey can intervene.
People don't feel theycould say something.
So imagine if you heard a veryinappropriate statement at work.
(43:52):
But as a bystander you felt youcould successfully maneuver that
and then support someone who wason the receiving end of that,
it changes everything.
And maybe that person whoeven said it now has to
acknowledge like, oh, thatsounded really, really bad.
To me, bystander interventioncould be huge, could be huge.
(44:12):
If it's just one thingthat we could impart.
I think, I think thatwould be an important one.
And, and, and letting peopleknow that bystander intervention
doesn't mean that you rollup your sleeves and you start
a fistfight with someone.
That's not bystanderintervention.
It could be if you neededit, if you felt strong
enough or comfortable enoughdoing something right,
physical, but it doesn't.
(44:33):
It could be justdocumenting the time of day.
It could be the licenseplate on the car or
what, What's the date?
What they were wearing?
That could be bystanderintervention, documenting.
It's just these littlethings that, that really
could change things.
And I think people think,well, if you say, can you
step up and be a bystander?
Everybody goes, I don't know.
I can't, But itcould be just that.
(44:54):
It could just be comingto you after I heard you
receive that yucky statementand going, Charmaine,
can I get you some water?
Can I refill your coffee?
Do you want to go get lunch?
Okay, my, I hada random thought.
Why am I saying random?
(45:15):
It's not random.
I was thinking about that when
I had not necessarily thoughttoo much about bystander in that
way, because that's not the wayit's taught or referenced, but
this, that makes so much sense.
And then I'm thinking sometimespeople liken that response
(45:38):
when you said, itdoesn't mean that you
have to go in and fight.
Although sometimes that's whatit, that's what it could mean.
I was thinking about, especiallyin professional settings,
people feel like they haveto step up and do this like
public shame-based declaration
to say somethingand that's not even.
(45:59):
The most effectiveway to do it anyway.
So the call to action isn'tnecessarily wait for everyone
to be there and then strike atthe right moment and make sure
everyone knows- it's, unlesssomething's this, something
super egregious, cause there'sa point to what you said.
Sometimes things needto be stopped right
there in the moment.
(46:20):
Sometimes.
But that's not usuallythe call to action.
It's not throwingyourself out there to
shame somebody publicly.
There are so manyother ways to do it.
So when you just said know yourresponse to bias, like that,
Oh my gosh, Iabsolutely love that.
(46:41):
I absolutely love that.
Because how many come homeand they go man tht guy said
something inappropriate and Ijust didn't know what to do.
Or man, that, whatever,and we come home and
then we go, I don't know.
I didn't know.
I wanted to do something.
I should have done something.
When people come to mewith that, I usually
say, there's still time.
When you see that persontoday, just say, Hey, I
(47:03):
saw that happen to you.
I wanted to check in.
Are you okay?
That's it.
That's all you have to do.
It's okay.
Even after, you can stillintervene and give support.
Oh gosh.
Okay.
The other thing that I'mthinking about too is in
organizations there is a desirefor the public acknowledgement
(47:26):
of a lot of things.
And as someone who facilitatesor teaches people how
to be in large spaces oreven in small spaces and
hold a lot of perspectivesand a lot of experiences,
sometimes people saythings and they aren't
things that feel good.
Some things are in themoment to say, but not
(47:47):
if not everything is.
Otherwise we wouldn't really getthrough our moments together.
But there's like this desirefor people to want everything
to be named and some stuffis that conversation that
you were talking about.
But there isn't the trustbuilt that that conversation
will be had offline.
(48:09):
Because that's not the typeof workplace that we have.
And because the same peopleshow up and keep doing
similar things, so people arelooking for, well, obviously,
something's not happening,but it keeps happening here.
And I don't know if there'sany one thing to do about it.
I just want to name thatthat's a real dynamic
that exists for people.
That when there isn't trust thatan organization will address,
(48:31):
then they, we are looking,I say we, cause I have,
I've been that person a lot.
I'm looking for proof thatother people care about
the harm that's happening.
Yeah.
Yeah, we see it insport all the time.
Why athletes don't come forward.
Because they've seen for the tentimes the athletes that did come
(48:52):
forward, or the hundred times,that they weren't supported.
So how can you tell me thatyour policies are one way,
even though I'm watching it andseeing it every day, you know?
Yeah, that's difficult.
That's the truth of someof the settings and some
of the cultures, andthose are difficult.
And those are the oneswho aren't going to give
PAVE a chance to get theirfoot in the door at all.
(49:13):
They know exactlywhat their culture is.
They're happy with thatperson winning a gold medal,
and they're going to put upwith his behavior, or that
coach's behavior, because heproduces gold medalists, till
the last cow comes home, or,they retire, or whatever.
Those guys aren't goingto let us in the door.
(49:34):
Unless they're,unless it's mandated.
But there are a lot of peopleand a lot of companies out
there that really do want to dobetter and want to get better
and care about their employees.
But they just think, okay, I'veordered these three modules
for sexual harassment andI've taken care of my people.
(49:54):
And that's to me whereit's got to change.
Hmm.
You, I'm going to sayone more thing and then
we can start to wrap up.
I, I have just been likerevamping things with
our rebrand this summer.
I've been really clear, tryingto be clearer with the people
that we're working with aboutour own no harm policy and no
(50:20):
secrets policy with the peoplethat we're contracting with.
And that it's, we're inrelationship with them.
And then of course there'sthat relational component,
the workplace culture thatexists and the things that we
are wanting to do and not doso that we don't contribute
to harm or our own harm.
(50:40):
And I'm honestly sayingthat because you had brought
up a very good point.
There's a lot of placesthat this is not the
type of work for them.
This isn't what they want.
If you want the traditionaltraining that says that you did
it so you can, I don't know,say you did that training.
This type of experienceisn't for you because
(51:01):
that's not what it is.
It's for the peopleand organizations that
really want change.
I really appreciate thejourney like that you all
went on and are still on tocreate what you're doing.
I think it's so cool.
(51:22):
I've heard some of theexperiences and successes,
you've shared them withme and it's communal,
which I think I love that.
It's not- Hey, we'rethe expert come higher.
It's very communal.
Let's all, who wants to learn?
You want to learn.
We want to help you learn.
And let's just do this together.
I appreciate that.
(51:43):
And I am certain thatthose that you are working
with and collaboratingwith are growing in that.
So I just, I thank you so much.
Thank you for saying thatbecause I don't think
it's been an accident.
It's not been an accidentthat the people that we've
partnered with early on,because we're new, early on,
(52:04):
they've wanted to grow with us.
Yeah.
I don't thinkthat's by accident.
I think that happened, whateverpower of the universe may be.
But it really is-
we have been very fortunateto partner with people and
do the work with peopleand organizations that were
definitely acknowledging thatwhat's been going on isn't
(52:27):
working, and hey, we'll try it.
Let's go.
And, the proof has been inthe pudding and it's been,
it's been great, but it hasbeen definitely a like minded
community in our partnersthat they, they get it.
They know it's goingto have to be something
different to get a different
outcome.
Oh my gosh.
(52:49):
Thank you, Arlene.
I, I feel like we need to doanother episode about some
stuff like this, this topic,the way that you frame things,
you use so many differentexamples and analogies that even
made it very relatable to me.
I'm already thinking about, Ihave a training in two days,
and I'm already thinking aboutthe way to frame it so that
(53:10):
it's, it's easily understood.
I often struggle with tryingto explain to people stuff.
You gave several examples,so thank you for that.
And thank you for beinghere and engaging in this
super important dialogue.
If people want to get intouch with you, what is
the best way to do that?
(53:30):
We're PAVE Prevention, andthat's paveprevention.com,
PAVE prevention.com.
I'm atarlene@paveprevention.com.
So yeah, we'd loveto hear from you.
Check out our website.
Connect on LinkedIn.
I love collaboration andI'm just, I know this
is going to sound corny,but I'm proud of you.
(53:51):
Okay.
And keep up the great work.
And it's been an honorto be on the, have this
conversation with you.
You are so just awesome.
Thank you, Arlene.
If this episode was of interestto you, value, maybe it's
value to people that you know,please share this with people
in your network, engage indialogue, reach out to Arlene
(54:13):
and people that PAVE Prevention.
Like, share, subscribe.
If you would like to getin touch with me, you
can visit our website atlivingunapologetically.
com.
You'll have access to socialmedia handles, email on there.
We have freebies.
You'll also have access to mybook Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
(54:35):
I think that is it.
Thanks so much forlistening or watching.
And I hope to hearfrom you soon.
So until next time, bye.
Arlene, you keep sayingmicroaggressions and you
(00:02):
keep saying microaggressions,but when you're going
through that, that feelslike a micro disaster.
When you're the one who'sgetting bullied day in and day
out, the term microaggressionseems almost minimalized,
minimizing it, when theperson is going through it.
It truly is death by 10, 000paper cuts and it's brutal.
(00:22):
Hey, welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
Today, we are talking aboutviolence prevention as part
of DEI work in professionalsettings, and we'll be
talking with Arlene Limas.
I'll introduce her in a moment.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a Relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
(00:42):
and issues that come up invarious professional settings
or in those places where we feellike we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
layers and the nuances in thoseinteractions so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts, views,the things that I share in
today's discussion, those are myown and not as a representative
(01:05):
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
All right.
With me, I have Arlene Limas.
(01:27):
Thank you so, so muchfor being here today.
having me.
I'm excited aboutthis conversation.
Me too.
Me too.
I met you not that long ago.
We were at a networkingevent and I actually
met you prior to that.
We were on a panel togetherand you and I connected
one on one prior to that.
And as soon as you startedtelling me your story and
(01:50):
your journey, even though Idid not know you, I felt, I
just felt like I knew you.
You are very, engagingand honest and authentic.
And I remember being soexcited to meet you in person.
And then when I did, Ijust, you have a presence.
You have an honest andauthentic presence.
(02:12):
And I feel like I learn from youwhenever I share space with you.
I've never told you that,but I want you to know that
it's, I'm not making that up.
That is so real.
So I am already knowingwe're going to have
a good convo today.
Yeah, our conversationsare always great.
And likewise, I feel like wehave a real connection, even
(02:33):
over Zoom when we first met.
But then when we did have theopportunity to share some space
on that panel, it was fantastic.
And you did a fantasticjob moderating that
panel, by the way.
But yeah, that was agreat, a great event
for us to connect that.
And then this continuedrelationship that we have, it's
been
great.
Yes.
Thank you for the compliments.
(02:54):
All right.
Would you mind introducingyourself, share anything that
you would like before we begin?
Sure, my name is Arlene Limas.
I, I always start off myintroduction with I'm a
lifelong martial artist.
I don't know lifewithout martial arts.
I started when I was five.
So I have really not much memoryof not kicking and punching, or
being in a martial arts school,or learning about martial arts.
(03:18):
And it's really shaped me.
It shaped me in my philosophy,but it's also shaped me
in my fitness as martialarts then evolved for a
sport, to a sport for me.
And I competed all aroundthe world, winning a gold
medal in the Olympics in 1988for the sport of Taekwondo.
And then led me to coaching.
(03:38):
I was one of the nationalcoaches for several years,
teaching and coaching.
And all that time,
as a young martial artist,as a young athlete, I started
to notice things like coachespulling me aside and saying,
hey, you need to stay away fromthat person, or identifying
inappropriate relationships.
(03:58):
So I began selfadvocating first.
And then advocating fora team that I may have
been on or my athletes.
And really just trying tocreate safer spaces and
safer relationships sothat people could thrive.
In that realm, it was tobe a good martial artist
or a great athlete orachieve your goals in sport.
And now the realm that I'musing is to create safer spaces
(04:21):
in the workplace with whatwe call human safety skills.
So learning how to set aboundary, learning how to use
your voice, learning how tohave the communication skills
to be a good bystander orupstander, those type of things.
And just really it's inits simplest form, really
understanding that you bringyourself into every event and
(04:46):
the good and the bad, right?
You bring all yourexperiences into that.
And if you could justunderstand when you're a little
adrenalized, when you're feelinga little tense or sweaty, that
that's influencing how you'reinteracting in that event.
And that does a lot.
Hmm.
You I want to actuallyremember this term.
You just said it, you referredto it as safety somethings.
(05:09):
Safety something.
Human safety skills.
Yeah, that's what we call it.
Yeah.
Human safety skills.
I'm going to haveto remember that.
I remember even in preparingfor this conversation,
we were talking aboutviolence prevention.
There was a light bulb thatwent off for me that a lot of
DEI work is about the concepts-
(05:29):
it's, it's aboutviolence prevention.
It's just not atop, not a topic.
It's not a term I used.
And I started thinking abouthow we refer to trust and safety
building in the workplace andsome of the aspects of learning
self and your own responses and,and all of that other stuff.
And I think a really cool placeto start or a good place to
(05:51):
start is talking about that,like violence prevention.
Like, what is it?
Why aren't we talking about itthat explicitly in workplaces?
Might be able todemystify some of that.
So if you have anything to shareon it, that would be so helpful.
Well, first of all, I think theword violence is really strange.
It just creates so muchpushback for people to
(06:14):
have to acknowledge thatviolence is happening.
If it's happening in theirhome, if it's happening in
their workplace, if it'shappening in their neighborhood,
everybody has so much pushback.
And I think that's whatperpetuates it so strongly that
we don't just acknowledge it.
Violence is happening every day.
And remember, OSHA describesviolence, the definition of
(06:35):
violence, is everything frommicroaggression to full blown
physical or psychological event.
It doesn't have to be anactive shooter situation
in the workplace to beconsidered violence.
It can be a form of bullying.
It can be gaslighting.
It can be mistreatmentby omission.
If someone is being omittedfrom meetings or activities.
(06:57):
All those things fall underthe definition of violence.
And I would argue it's thoseThings on this side of the
spectrum, like microaggressions,bullying, gaslighting, that
lead up to those physical eventsor lead up to a person just
leaving or not being present.
They're there, butthey're not present.
(07:18):
So all those things influencethe workplace, its productivity,
and your experience there.
Violence is occurring every day.
We need to stop pushing backon it, shed some light on
it, have discussions aboutit, and really, that's where
the change is going to come.
That's, in my humble opinion...
Yes.
No, I get that.
I, there are certain things thatI feel this is true and I don't
(07:42):
care what people think about it.
And then I recognizeit's, it's my opinion,
Yeah.
Yeah.
But also, there's so muchtruth to what you're saying.
Like saying violence feelsso, like, almost charged.
I liken it to when people say orexperience someone saying white
supremacy culture, it comeswith like, it's, it's too much.
(08:05):
It's too serious.
But violence is super serious.
It's just not the termthat I hear a lot.
And even though I don't hearit, that doesn't mean it's
not actually what's happening.
And those, I don't know,there's some people in my
circles or places that I teach.
(08:26):
There's some people thatare very clear and confident
in using that language.
And I can see and feel in groupsthat there's this feeling of
why, like, why is it so serious?
I get that that's not agood thing, but why are
we saying violence if,because people associate.
Like you said, thosebigger types of incidents.
(08:46):
So I appreciate even thatspectrum of it could be
the things that we thinkare very small, all the
way to these larger things.
And often those smallerthings build up to
something more significant.
And it's death by, to me,it's death, death by 10,
000 paper cuts, right?
That's, that's how itfeels when you're in it.
(09:07):
And I had a, we havean incredible advisor,
advisory team for PAVE.
And one of the gentlemen, Dr.
Pete Marghella, he'sdone a lot of disaster
preparedness, through several,White House, changeovers.
So he's worked withseveral administrations.
And he's well aware ofwhat it feels like to be
a survivor of violence.
And, he shared at one point,Arlene, you keep saying
(09:28):
microaggressions and youkeep saying microaggressions,
but when you're goingthrough that, that feels
like a micro disaster.
When you're the one who'sgetting bullied day in and day
out, the term microaggressionseems almost minimalized,
minimizing it, when theperson is going through it.
It truly is death by 10, 000paper cuts and it's brutal.
(09:50):
And if you're looking, look atthe healthcare sector, right?
Nurses, let's just, let'sjust use nurses because
it's prevalent throughoutevery position within
the healthcare sector.
They're, they're dealing withharassment from coworkers.
They're dealing with violencewith a family member that has
at their wits end because aloved one is sick or hurt.
(10:12):
They're dealing with patientsthat may not have all their
faculties and they're violent.
And
we're not supporting them.
We're not, we're, we're, we'renot helping them with those,
those violent events thatthey're dealing with every
day.
Mmm.
Mmm.
I know we probablywill get into this.
I was just havingmy own thought.
Like just this weekI was in a situation.
(10:34):
No, not this week, last week.
I was in a meeting,something happened.
And I had this response.
This response wasn'tabout that moment.
It wasn't, it was alot of things that
contributed to the moment.
And I, I just had this responseand then I had to talk my way
through it with this groupof people and I realized, you
(10:56):
know what, because of thesethings and then other stuff
that had nothing to do withthe people in the setting,
I was just so activated.
I was like, I didn'twant to hear one more
thing about that topic.
That's enough.
Like, it just was so much.
Yeah.
we bring ourselves, we bringourselves to every event.
(11:17):
And you brought yourself.
The good thing is, is thatyou realized it, you realized
it and you were able to havea conversation about it.
Those are the type of cultureswe're trying to create.
And I know you're trying tocreate those cultures as well.
I mean, no one is perfect.
We, again, we have anotherperson in our network and I
love this saying, we need tonormalize mistakes and have
conversations around intent.
We
(11:37):
I
love that
Yes, I do too.
When she shared that, whenshe shared that statement,
how nice would it be, ifwe could just like really,
truly feel comfortablegoing, man, I made a mistake.
A lot of places youdon't have that luxury.
So, but we do, we do, andthis is a big conversation
that we have and we try toinstill in our trainings
(11:59):
is- why am I feeling theway I feel right now?
What are my expectations?
Especially when we'reworking, I'll use the example.
We've done some trainingwith the Oakland Community
Responder Program called MACRO.
We gave them a checkin process, like how to
check into every event.
Like, before you go intothat event, have these series
(12:22):
of questions for yourself.
So you're ready, right?
You're like, whatis my best outcome?
What am I looking for?
I've just got a call foran unhoused person who's
not wearing much clothingand what is the outcome
you're looking for?
And then going through likeseveral of the people who
went through the traininghad been unhoused at
(12:43):
some point in their life.
So they're bringingthat to that process.
They're bringing thatto that call right then.
So have that littlechecklist with yourself
before you enter the event.
What do I want out of this?
How am I feelingreally about it?
So that then you can go insafely to that event, not
sidetracked, not adrenalized ina way that could hurt your own
(13:07):
safety while you're responding.
It seems simple, but it's,what's going on here?
What's going on here?
What's going on?
That's the question we tellpeople to ask all the time.
What's going on here?
Is it, is it me?
Is it, how am I enteringinto this situation?
Oh my gosh.
I love everythingthat you're saying.
(13:27):
And I remember when wewere talking about what
will we talk about todayand how do you frame it?
You had told me we're doinga lot of similar things.
Right.
You said that.
And I knew it was true, but Ididn't know all of the nuances.
And even what you're sayingright now, I love it.
The support to help peopleexperience themselves and
(13:52):
know what's happening inthemselves and then to prepare
before going into something,like how significant that is.
And that impacts then how weinteract with other people,
the people that we're serving,people that we work with.
Oh my gosh, justthank you for that.
I'm also thinking, okay,so there's the aspect of
(14:13):
addressing this in variousprofessional settings,
workplaces that is really great.
And then you also shined alittle light on that it's
not the easiest thing to do.
So I'm also wondering like,what has been your experience
of normalizing violenceprevention, human safety
(14:34):
oh gosh, I forgotour human safety...
safety
skills.
Yeah.
just be like, here's theinformation, everyone go do it.
That's gotta come with greatthings and difficult things.
So what has thatprocess been like?
Well, during ourtraining, we have really
difficult conversations.
We're having thehard conversations.
I remember very clearlya heated situation in
(14:58):
our first macro training,because we had a Caucasian.
One of our trainerswere, was Caucasian.
And one of our train, oneof the macro responders was
really struggling with beingactivated as a paramedic who
has shown up for people ofcolor and shown up for people
(15:22):
who are not of color, andthose people not received her.
And so she was having really,really activation taking
information from this trainer.
It was difficult.
And it just boom, which wasexactly what we wanted it
to do so we could have realconversations around it.
And, by the end of the training,there was this mutual respect.
There was this, I learnedsomething from you, you
(15:43):
learned something from me.
We had the difficultconversations.
And that's what has to happen.
That's what has to happenas people move forward.
One, because it is anacknowledgement that I see
you, I hear you, I get it.
I might not even getit, let me say that.
I might not get it.
But I'm giving you myattention, my respect,
I'm, I'm hearing you.
(16:05):
And that's what a lot,what has to happen.
And then you moveforward from there.
And some of those moves maybe- We ain't going to be here
anymore, but at least there'sa mutual respect that we hear
each other and see each other.
It's important.
Another way that I thinkis really important in our
training is we're deeplyscenario based and we work...
(16:27):
It is our goal in atrauma-informed way
to adrenalize peopleduring these scenarios.
Because, one, we're able to havemore meaningful conversation
post scenario, but two, thelesson lands on our brain
and into our DNA differentlywhen we're adrenalized, and
we retain it much quicker.
(16:49):
So, that's our goalwith our trainings.
And it, it is, we doprobably equal amount of
training as we do grounding.
Because it's that important thatwe do get ourself adrenalized,
but then we're able toground, breathe, refocus, and
really have some meaningfulconversations from them.
But I think that's thesecret sauce for what we do.
(17:10):
In addition to our assessments,all the work we do beforehand
to set the training in avery customizable way, it's
that, it's not a modulethat you're doing on your
computer that's supposedto better very good, yeah.
Oh my gosh, Arlene, youdon't even know how much
you're speaking my language.
(17:30):
Oh my gosh.
Now, I mean, I think thatthis needs to be hit.
This is not a oneanswer and done.
PAVE needs to come in in there.
You need to come in there.
There's, there needs tobe, more team building.
There needs to bemore leadership.
This is, this is truly takinga village approach to how
we create safer culture.
(17:50):
And we haven't even touchedupon the trauma and the pain
of that doesn't happen atwork, but we bring it to
work.
Mm.
Mm
I mean, we haven't even talked
about
that.
Mm hmm.
I actually kind ofwant to do that.
I, oh gosh, I have two thoughts.
I'm like, which one to pick?
(18:11):
Can I just really quicklybranch off and ask you a
question and then I would loveto make sure that we do our
due diligence and talk aboutthe trauma outside of, because
that's absolutely part of it.
When you're talking, I referto what you were describing
as the experiences in thescenario based learning as
experiential learning, andthat that's a thing that is
(18:34):
not as common when teachingpeople this type, this layered
level, this activating type oflife that we all experience.
You can't, you can't just, likeyou said, you can't just get
it in a "watch that video."
There's, you have tofeel it and experience.
(18:55):
So I, I love that conceptof we're creating safety
so that we can createthese experiences where you
feel them in the moment.
Because this is how we'regoing to help you know what
you're experiencing, what itmeans, and how to do something
in a moment and with people.
And my question is, Ithink, what's my question?
(19:17):
I'm going to frame it as astatement than a question.
I haven't seen that that skillset to facilitate that is
very, very common, but I knowthat you and your facilitators
have that skill set developed.
And like, how did you developthe skill set to provide
that type of experienceand learning for people?
(19:38):
Wow.
Well, I'm going to, I'm goingto back us up then and share
with you that this idea ofhuman safety skills and PAVE
prevention and taking thistype of training into the
workplace all came underthe idea that we do most of
our adult learning at work.
So if we can impart theseskills at work and it
(20:00):
does a corporation or abusiness good, fantastic.
But what we really are tryingto do is to create individuals
that have this skill set.
So if it gives you morecohesion at your company, super
duper,
Yeah.
right?
It really was about empoweringthe individual who will then
(20:21):
use these skills everywhere.
So that was the firstthought on PAVE.
How can we get to more people?
Because before PAVE and forthe last 40 or 50 years, there
have been a group of peopledoing empowerment self defense.
And empowerment selfdefense is the skill set,
but really targeted towardsgender-based violence.
(20:42):
And so the community aboutsix or seven years ago created
an incubator where we coulddiscuss how can we get these
skills to other people.
We know we're doinggood with these skills.
We know it's working inthis gender, through this
gender-based violence community.
How can we get itto more people?
Okay.
We're going to, some peopleare going to do this way.
(21:03):
We're going to do trainthe trainer programs.
We're going to do this and we'regoing to take this skill set.
We're going topackage it in a way.
that corporations andinstitutions will listen to us.
And that's how PAVE was born.
And instead of calling itempowerment, self defense, or
instead of calling it somethingthat may push people back, we
created a whole new languagearound it, human safety skills.
(21:27):
Those are the things and that's,that's how PAVE came about.
But it is through yearsand years of people
teaching trauma-informedtraining, adrenalized
training, experience...
what did you call it?
Experiential, Yes.
They have been doing this,our community, the Empowerment
Self Defense community hasbeen taking this style training
for 40 or 50 years now and,and honing their skills,
(21:50):
through suited attackers,through non suited attackers.
So physical contact andnon physical contact.
And, learning the lessonsaccordingly, and that's
where PAVE grew out of.
Wow.
Thank you for sharing that.
And it also makesme think about,
(22:10):
I don't even know how tosay this in a way that
I'm just going to say it.
There's the reality that we haveto learn through the moments
that we're actually trying notto experience, because it's
really hard to learn what to do.
So there's, it also comeswith people desire to not
experience harm or violence,and that makes so much sense.
Who wants to do that?
(22:31):
We're working to notexperience, but in hearing
your journey and even knowingexperiential learning and
what it's meant to do.
We're not going to,how can I say that?
I don't know if we're going toever get to a place where no one
ever does anything, but you weretalking about that co-learning
process and that there'sgoing to be things that we
(22:52):
experience and it's like goingthrough it and learning how to,
how to go through it andhow to keep relationships
intact and if there isharm, how to address it.
So I think what I'm tryingto do is normalize if the
goal is to never experienceanything, it's going to
be really hard to learn.
And it's going to be hard togo through life and hear people
(23:16):
and understand the impact.
And you might not, likeyou said, you might not
know everything that'shappening with someone.
And you might not know thedepth of the impact because
you're not that person.
But could I be here with them?
Could I, could I just bein that moment and learn
from this experience anddo differently later?
And I hope I'm making sense.
No, you are.
(23:37):
Okay.
Okay.
So.
You are.
And I just want to, I'vegot my coach's hat on now.
I've got my athleteand coach hat on.
We try so hard as coaches tocreate a real, competition like
feel in our training, right?
I mean, we'll never beable to do it, but we try
(23:57):
as much as we possibly canso that our athletes are
ready for every scenario.
They feel the pressure.
We, we bring spectatorsinto the workout.
We, we do all these differentthings to try to make it feel
like a real competition day.
And that's really what we'redoing when we're doing our
training is we're tryingto make it as real but safe
(24:18):
as coach, that's what Idid for my athletes, right?
I can't let them fightfull contact every day
and be injured, right?
So I gotta still make it safe.
I've gotta make itsafe for them to train.
Try to internalize someof these skills, but be
a little uncomfortable.
If we're not a littleuncomfortable, we're not gonna
grow.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Okay.
I'm going to have to use thatin various settings, but I
(24:40):
will credit you where thatanalogy came from because
it makes a lot of sense.
Okay.
I want to be responsibleand go back to that other
point that you brought up.
Especially like relating itto when addressing violence
prevention, human safety skillsin an organization, there's
(25:00):
the part that we talked about,and then there's the part that
we hadn't talked about yetthat you lifted up, which is,
and then people have traumaoutside of the workplace,
and that comes with them too.
Could you just share whatthat has been like as a
result of doing that work?
I think one, it's justliterally creating a community
first in your workplace,creating a workplace where
(25:22):
you can have conversations.
And you can say, you knowwhat yesterday was the one
year anniversary of my unclewho was lost to gun violence.
And we had a ceremony yesterday.
I'm probably at about70 percent today.
(25:42):
Create a workplace thatyou're allowed to say that.
My 100 percent today is70 percent and that's what
you're going to get from me.
I promise I'm going toget to 70 percent today.
And again, this comes frommy wearing my sporting
hat, my coaching hat.
Being able to give my athleteswhen they stepped into workout,
every workout, even if wetrained three times that day.
(26:03):
One to ten, how are you feeling?
I'm an eight coach.
Awesome.
Okay.
I'm a six.
I think I did something to myhamstring in the last workout.
I'm a five coach.
I was up all nightwriting two term papers.
So now I know, I knowI'm going to get a five.
And I trust that an athleteis going to give me to five.
(26:24):
Cause that's a hundredpercent for them today.
But it's creating thisculture where you're
allowed to say that, whereyou're allowed to say that.
And then if I were in a teamsetting or a work setting,
I, who am at a 10 today,would pick you up who's a 5.
And tomorrow I might be a 5 andyou might have to pick me up.
But that's the kind ofrelationships and teamwork
(26:47):
we're trying to create.
And we don't have enough, whereno one is allowed to come in
and have that conversation andsay like, man, I'm dragging
today because I'm just hit.
I didn't think it wasgoing to be a big deal.
Yeah.
Just going to the cemetery and,dropping some flowers down.
I thought it would beokay, but I'm not okay.
(27:07):
It's hitting memore than I thought.
I even surprised myself.
I lost my home to afire when I was 14.
And, I remember the dayclearly, but it really hadn't
come on my mind in years.
I was 14 when this happened.
And about six months ago,I'm driving home, see
(27:29):
the big smoke in the air.
And I'm like, wow, there'sa big fire over there.
Drive.
As I get closer, I see thatthe smoke is still on my trail.
It's still on mypath to get home.
I started feeling all thesesame anxious feelings that
I felt like when I was like,driving to, to my home,
(27:50):
knowing that it was on fire.
And it was a blockfrom my mom's home.
So it really createda lot of angst for me.
But I would have neverthought that I would have that
physical change in my body.
Tightening, anxiousness,stress, head pounding.
I had all these real,real changes in my body.
(28:11):
That I hadn't thoughtabout in forever.
I hadn't thought aboutbeing activated by something
like that in forever.
And just like that, Iwas taken right back with
all those same anxietiesand stresses and worry.
So, we, it happens.
I had no idea that I wouldreact to that, like that,
but it happens and peopledo have those struggles.
(28:39):
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, that felt impactful.
And you're also making methink about, you're making
me think about the last fewmonths at, I have a few jobs,
but I, at one of my jobs, I,I just, I've been struggling
so much like personally overthe last few months, it got
to the point where in atwork, I had to say that.
(28:59):
And we are creating the typeof workspace where these
things are okay, but I stillhad my own experience of
having to come to the pointwhere I had to say something.
And oh my gosh, itwas so interesting.
I am certain, I am certainthat most people, if they knew
all the things that I had beendealing with, they'd be very
confused about how I was at workand they would be very confused.
(29:23):
But when I started saying thingslike, I'm not doing well today,
like I could barely be here.
Or this is my way of takingmy mind off of stuff that
I just need a break from.
I started feeling.
Gosh, there's the part ofneeding the space and then
there's a part of using thespace that I think I'm talking
(29:44):
about right now that's,that's also part of the work.
Like, because places cancreate the opportunity in
the room to say these thingsthat we're talking about.
And then because it hasn'tbeen historically something
that workplaces are doing, italso comes with that internal
experience of taking that spacefor yourself and saying it out
(30:05):
loud and what that means becausethat also feels like a risk.
The created space is one part,but using the space and seeing
how it goes is the other part.
And I thankfully had agood experience and it
helped me keep going.
But I'm just thinking,you know what?
People do have a lot ofstuff going on and it
(30:26):
helps to say it out loud.
It helps to be in community.
It helps to be able to belike, I'm not doing well.
I'm not a one, but I'm here.
Is this okay?
Yep.
It's okay.
When we don't hear from you, weknow you're here, but not here.
Great.
Thanks.
I'll check in soon.
Right.
That's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It took a while.
I mean, the example that I gaveof my team, it took a while for
(30:47):
them to get, for my athletesto go- Coach isn't going to
be mad if I say I'm a six.
Or coach isn't going to bemad if I, I mean, you know,
or she's, but really it gavethem, it, I don't know how
to explain it, but, they wereconstantly thinking that when
they were at a five, I wasthinking they were dogging it.
(31:11):
Right.
And by able to say, I'm ata five and then me trusting
that their five was all theycould give me today and being
okay with that as their coach,it just changed everything.
It changed their confidence.
It changed their trust with me.
And when, when you have arelationship of really strong
trust between you and yourathlete, that's when you're able
(31:31):
to go to the next level, right?
And the same thinghappens in the workplace.
That's when you're readyto go to the next level and
achieve things that you didn'tthink you could achieve.
So we've got tocreate those spaces.
The potential
Mm
incredible.
hmm.
Okay.
Look, there's, there's thisquestion I want to ask that
I feel like everywhere I go,leaders have this question.
(31:54):
And I have my own responsesbased on a moment, but I think
you are the person to ask.
Okay.
Workplaces and leaders thatare making room for the human
experience, people coming inwith trauma and that's okay.
There's room there to support.
(32:16):
There's like this, point whereaccountability to work comes up.
It's like, how much can Isupport without it going so
far that there's an employeewho's not able to be here
to contribute to anything.
Like it's people reallystruggle with that.
(32:37):
And I feel like
no, I
understand what you're
no, you go ahead.
we don't want, we don't want, tohurt the rest of our culture, if
people are feeling like they'redoing more, they're carrying
a bigger load, or this personwho is not carrying their load
is not being held accountable.
It's funny, we had, wehave a mutual friend, Dr.
(32:57):
Alonzo Kelly, who, whowas with us at our event.
He has this great ideathat we don't give
accountability rewards.
We just use accountabilityas negatives, like, Oh,
you're not, you're goingto be held accountable.
But when someone doesconsistently be, when they're
accountable for all theiractivities and they're hitting
(33:18):
their goals, we don't give themlike an accountability reward.
Right.
So there is a little bitaround accountability and
leadership that I feelin agreement with Dr.
Kelly, which is we needto acknowledge it more.
We need to say like, man,you're doing a great job.
Right.
And when someone comesin and says, Hey, I
didn't do a good job.
I didn't hit thison all cylinders.
(33:40):
And I get it.
We got to go.
Okay.
Thank you.
That's it.
That's it.
You held yourself accountable.
So I think that'sreally important.
And, it's all thoselittle things, that we
need to acknowledge.
In my sport, it's fastand furious kicking and
punching and spinning.
But really one of the keyfactors is being able to block.
(34:05):
Super key factor, right?
Cause you could haveall those moves.
If you can't block andyou're getting hit a
lot and you're gettingscored on, you're losing.
But blocking is not fun.
So people don't highlight it.
They don't bring it out.
It's not in the stats.
It's not in, as soon as I,as a coach started going,
great block, awesome block.
(34:26):
Everybody's like.
Okay.
Yes, yes.
So, it's acknowledgingall those things.
Even if acknowledging that, youjust held yourself accountable.
Awesome.
There's an accountabilityaward, so yeah, it's, it's,
it's, it's a tough one though.
Again, I believe, if you reallyhave that trust and you believe
(34:49):
in your team, I don't thinkanybody wants to be a slacker.
That's just me.
It's probably adifferent reason.
It's not that theydon't want to work.
It's probably they're inthe wrong place, right?
It's not your passion.
They haven't found their why.
I think if you engage people andthey have found what they want
to do, they will work for you.
If you are, if you areleading them in a way that
(35:10):
you should, or in a positiveway, they'll work for you.
They'll go to bat for you.
My team, my athletes, myfamily, my coworkers, they
go to bat for me, man.
I know it.
I know it.
So, and it's not alwaysabout financial rewards
or, it's, it's about theybelieve in the mission.
(35:30):
They believe in,they're passionate.
We're passionateabout the same things.
Yes, it's so nuanced.
It's person to person, butI like what you're saying.
I also feel like it's importantto say, sometimes when, when
we do something at work,some people sometimes feel
like it negates other things.
(35:51):
So even when you saidwhat you said, praising or
acknowledging accountability.
I feel like that could also comewith people feeling, well, I
wasn't able to do this today.
It doesn't negate other things.
It's in addition to...
I'm just imagining, I justknow, I've seen enough to
know when you lift up onething and you say something's
(36:11):
good than that, how somehowmeans other things are bad.
It doesn't mean that.
It means this is great.
That's what that means.
That's okay.
Exactly.
It's funny, we're workingwith a library system
in Alameda County.
We're doing training withthem and in one of our first
meetings with leadership,they said, we, we really
(36:33):
celebrate mistakes becauseit's a learning opportunity.
And, and the leadershipsaid, we literally go like,
yay, I made a mistake.
We can learn from this.
I was like, that's awesome.
That's incredible.
Like, man, wouldn't, wouldn'tthat be nice if we were
able to do that, right?
That'd be great.
That'd be awesome.
(36:54):
It's just like normalizinghuman experience.
It's all okay.
Like
I appreciate that.
Okay, you, could you share,when we were talking about this
topic, you were saying thatthere's a group of people or
certain people that hold thebrunt of their responsibility
when starting to do this workor when integrating more of that
(37:14):
like violence prevention lens.
Who holds the brunt of theresponsibility to create
this type of change inprofessional settings?
Hmm.
Wow.
I would love to see HR takea leadership, more of a
leadership role, or at least,an interesting role in what,
what this type of change means.
(37:35):
I think that, I think youand I have talked about this
already, that HR initially wasthere to protect the employee.
That's what theywere brought in for.
And then it's morphed a littlebit to now they're almost
there to protect the company.
So if we could find this kindof middle ground for HR again, I
(37:58):
think it could be very powerful.
So one, I think thesequestions about creating
violence preventionprograms or trainings,
or, taking assessment, ofthings like dehumanizing
behavior in your workplace.
I think that needs to come.
It would be very powerful ifit came, if it came from HR.
That's, that's a one, but Ithink I wouldn't even discredit
(38:20):
or discount the, the individualwho says, I'm going to lobby
for a two hour session duringInternational Women's Day.
I think it can come fromevery aspect or every
stakeholder in the company.
But to have really, trulymeaningful change, I think
it needs to be comprehensive.
(38:40):
It needs to be topdown, bottom up.
And it needs to have impact inits policies and procedures.
It's, it's not going to be easy.
this isn't going to beeasy, but we need it.
we're losing so much and we'vehad, we've talked about it.
We're losing so much everyday because people aren't
allowed to deal with violence.
They're not allowedto talk about it.
(39:01):
They're not allowed tohave skills to prevent it.
If you go through our,little pyramid of needs,
safety is that second tier.
After food and water andshelter, safety is it.
So let's create safe spaces.
We can't learn ifwe're not safe.
You know, if our, if ourworkplaces aren't safe,
(39:23):
if our homes aren't safe,we know that, we know it.
But we don't talk about it andwe don't answer that question,
that problem like we should be.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When you had saidtop, down, bottom, up.
I was thinking about just in-What happens is, and you had
shared this with me offlineabout middle management.
And when, when I am thinkingabout middle management,
(39:46):
I'm actually thinking aboutthat in two layers too.
What happens is middlemanagers tend to be two layers.
Or more where there's managersand supervisors who are not
managing a program and thatthere is a lot of responsibility
that falls on both.
But I have noticed that if thereare people who are supervisors,
(40:10):
but not managers, they'reexpected to learn and do a lot
of things without the type ofsupport that even managers get
or access that managers get.
So that's even like atiered part in there.
And I'm wondering, like,what have you seen the impact
on middle managers be whenmaking this type of change?
Because even when there's HRsupport, there's a lot that
(40:34):
comes down to people supervisingand managers to operate
differently, and I'm so curiousabout your thoughts on that.
Hmm.
Well, it's definitely oneof the conversations that
came out of the summit.
So, we try to have theseconversations, to discuss, to
try to de-silo what's going on.
Like, maybe there's somethingwe heard in healthcare violence
(40:57):
prevention in the sector, thehealthcare sector about violence
prevention that can influencethe hospitality sector.
That can influence what'sgoing on in libraries.
And one of the things that keptcoming, no matter what sector
we were talking about, isthis added strain, this added
pressure, this higher levelsof burnout, this disconnect
with middle management.
(41:18):
And the pressure that they'refeeling from the top about
reaching your goals, hittingyour deadlines, and then from
the bottom of, the day to day,day in and out, what's happening
to the, to the employees,coming to middle management.
So it, it has forced us, really,it has propelled us to change
(41:39):
what that working relationshipand our training relationship
is for middle management andcreate something a little
special just for them becauseof this dynamic and this added
pressure they're feeling.
Here I just thought, I've gotto convince my C suite folks
that this is important and tofund it and support it and keep
(41:59):
it in the policies and, andlet me train the individual.
And I we were kind of like,yeah, these guys will get it.
No, they need it more.
They need it more.
They need thede-escalation skills.
They need to make sure thatthey have good grounding
techniques and they needto know that, acknowledge
their own communicationstyle and how they may be
clashing with other people.
So we have refocused a littlebit on middle management there.
(42:22):
mm.
That sounds like a really,really great thing to be doing.
Gives me some thoughts,I'll just put a pin in that
because it's not the pointof right this very second.
I'm thinking about, okay,for people listening, for
people who have a desire todo something different, be it
one person, be it a team, itcould be based on maybe you are
(42:43):
a higher-level person or HR,like what are some practical,
tangible things that peoplecan do, if there is a desire
to, be more violence preventionoriented, human safety skill
oriented, and maybe if it'seven like a recalling back to
some of the things we said,but just tangibly speaking,
(43:05):
like, what can someone do.
I just did this reallyinformal workshop for a
community organizationhere, at their big event.
They have a big gatheringof communities event
here in Chicago.
And we just did a 90 minuteworkshop on putting the
neighbor back in neighborhood.
And it was just talkingabout bystander intervention.
(43:27):
If someone just took thetime to figure out their
bystander skills, I thinkthat would change everything.
I really would.
Because it's a differenttype of confidence.
People don't feelthey can intervene.
People don't feel theycould say something.
So imagine if you heard a veryinappropriate statement at work.
(43:52):
But as a bystander you felt youcould successfully maneuver that
and then support someone who wason the receiving end of that,
it changes everything.
And maybe that person whoeven said it now has to
acknowledge like, oh, thatsounded really, really bad.
To me, bystander interventioncould be huge, could be huge.
(44:12):
If it's just one thingthat we could impart.
I think, I think thatwould be an important one.
And, and, and letting peopleknow that bystander intervention
doesn't mean that you rollup your sleeves and you start
a fistfight with someone.
That's not bystanderintervention.
It could be if you neededit, if you felt strong
enough or comfortable enoughdoing something right,
physical, but it doesn't.
(44:33):
It could be justdocumenting the time of day.
It could be the licenseplate on the car or
what, What's the date?
What they were wearing?
That could be bystanderintervention, documenting.
It's just these littlethings that, that really
could change things.
And I think people think,well, if you say, can you
step up and be a bystander?
Everybody goes, I don't know.
I can't, But itcould be just that.
(44:54):
It could just be comingto you after I heard you
receive that yucky statementand going, Charmaine,
can I get you some water?
Can I refill your coffee?
Do you want to go get lunch?
Okay, my, I hada random thought.
Why am I saying random?
(45:15):
It's not random.
I was thinking about that when
I had not necessarily thoughttoo much about bystander in that
way, because that's not the wayit's taught or referenced, but
this, that makes so much sense.
And then I'm thinking sometimespeople liken that response
(45:38):
when you said, itdoesn't mean that you
have to go in and fight.
Although sometimes that's whatit, that's what it could mean.
I was thinking about, especiallyin professional settings,
people feel like they haveto step up and do this like
public shame-based declaration
to say somethingand that's not even.
(45:59):
The most effectiveway to do it anyway.
So the call to action isn'tnecessarily wait for everyone
to be there and then strike atthe right moment and make sure
everyone knows- it's, unlesssomething's this, something
super egregious, cause there'sa point to what you said.
Sometimes things needto be stopped right
there in the moment.
(46:20):
Sometimes.
But that's not usuallythe call to action.
It's not throwingyourself out there to
shame somebody publicly.
There are so manyother ways to do it.
So when you just said know yourresponse to bias, like that,
Oh my gosh, Iabsolutely love that.
(46:41):
I absolutely love that.
Because how many come homeand they go man tht guy said
something inappropriate and Ijust didn't know what to do.
Or man, that, whatever,and we come home and
then we go, I don't know.
I didn't know.
I wanted to do something.
I should have done something.
When people come to mewith that, I usually
say, there's still time.
When you see that persontoday, just say, Hey, I
(47:03):
saw that happen to you.
I wanted to check in.
Are you okay?
That's it.
That's all you have to do.
It's okay.
Even after, you can stillintervene and give support.
Oh gosh.
Okay.
The other thing that I'mthinking about too is in
organizations there is a desirefor the public acknowledgement
(47:26):
of a lot of things.
And as someone who facilitatesor teaches people how
to be in large spaces oreven in small spaces and
hold a lot of perspectivesand a lot of experiences,
sometimes people saythings and they aren't
things that feel good.
Some things are in themoment to say, but not
(47:47):
if not everything is.
Otherwise we wouldn't really getthrough our moments together.
But there's like this desirefor people to want everything
to be named and some stuffis that conversation that
you were talking about.
But there isn't the trustbuilt that that conversation
will be had offline.
(48:09):
Because that's not the typeof workplace that we have.
And because the same peopleshow up and keep doing
similar things, so people arelooking for, well, obviously,
something's not happening,but it keeps happening here.
And I don't know if there'sany one thing to do about it.
I just want to name thatthat's a real dynamic
that exists for people.
That when there isn't trust thatan organization will address,
(48:31):
then they, we are looking,I say we, cause I have,
I've been that person a lot.
I'm looking for proof thatother people care about
the harm that's happening.
Yeah.
Yeah, we see it insport all the time.
Why athletes don't come forward.
Because they've seen for the tentimes the athletes that did come
(48:52):
forward, or the hundred times,that they weren't supported.
So how can you tell me thatyour policies are one way,
even though I'm watching it andseeing it every day, you know?
Yeah, that's difficult.
That's the truth of someof the settings and some
of the cultures, andthose are difficult.
And those are the oneswho aren't going to give
PAVE a chance to get theirfoot in the door at all.
(49:13):
They know exactlywhat their culture is.
They're happy with thatperson winning a gold medal,
and they're going to put upwith his behavior, or that
coach's behavior, because heproduces gold medalists, till
the last cow comes home, or,they retire, or whatever.
Those guys aren't goingto let us in the door.
(49:34):
Unless they're,unless it's mandated.
But there are a lot of peopleand a lot of companies out
there that really do want to dobetter and want to get better
and care about their employees.
But they just think, okay, I'veordered these three modules
for sexual harassment andI've taken care of my people.
(49:54):
And that's to me whereit's got to change.
Hmm.
You, I'm going to sayone more thing and then
we can start to wrap up.
I, I have just been likerevamping things with
our rebrand this summer.
I've been really clear, tryingto be clearer with the people
that we're working with aboutour own no harm policy and no
(50:20):
secrets policy with the peoplethat we're contracting with.
And that it's, we're inrelationship with them.
And then of course there'sthat relational component,
the workplace culture thatexists and the things that we
are wanting to do and not doso that we don't contribute
to harm or our own harm.
(50:40):
And I'm honestly sayingthat because you had brought
up a very good point.
There's a lot of placesthat this is not the
type of work for them.
This isn't what they want.
If you want the traditionaltraining that says that you did
it so you can, I don't know,say you did that training.
This type of experienceisn't for you because
(51:01):
that's not what it is.
It's for the peopleand organizations that
really want change.
I really appreciate thejourney like that you all
went on and are still on tocreate what you're doing.
I think it's so cool.
(51:22):
I've heard some of theexperiences and successes,
you've shared them withme and it's communal,
which I think I love that.
It's not- Hey, we'rethe expert come higher.
It's very communal.
Let's all, who wants to learn?
You want to learn.
We want to help you learn.
And let's just do this together.
I appreciate that.
(51:43):
And I am certain thatthose that you are working
with and collaboratingwith are growing in that.
So I just, I thank you so much.
Thank you for saying thatbecause I don't think
it's been an accident.
It's not been an accidentthat the people that we've
partnered with early on,because we're new, early on,
(52:04):
they've wanted to grow with us.
Yeah.
I don't thinkthat's by accident.
I think that happened, whateverpower of the universe may be.
But it really is-
we have been very fortunateto partner with people and
do the work with peopleand organizations that were
definitely acknowledging thatwhat's been going on isn't
(52:27):
working, and hey, we'll try it.
Let's go.
And, the proof has been inthe pudding and it's been,
it's been great, but it hasbeen definitely a like minded
community in our partnersthat they, they get it.
They know it's goingto have to be something
different to get a different
outcome.
Oh my gosh.
(52:49):
Thank you, Arlene.
I, I feel like we need to doanother episode about some
stuff like this, this topic,the way that you frame things,
you use so many differentexamples and analogies that even
made it very relatable to me.
I'm already thinking about, Ihave a training in two days,
and I'm already thinking aboutthe way to frame it so that
(53:10):
it's, it's easily understood.
I often struggle with tryingto explain to people stuff.
You gave several examples,so thank you for that.
And thank you for beinghere and engaging in this
super important dialogue.
If people want to get intouch with you, what is
the best way to do that?
(53:30):
We're PAVE Prevention, andthat's paveprevention.com,
PAVE prevention.com.
I'm atarlene@paveprevention.com.
So yeah, we'd loveto hear from you.
Check out our website.
Connect on LinkedIn.
I love collaboration andI'm just, I know this
is going to sound corny,but I'm proud of you.
(53:51):
Okay.
And keep up the great work.
And it's been an honorto be on the, have this
conversation with you.
You are so just awesome.
Thank you, Arlene.
If this episode was of interestto you, value, maybe it's
value to people that you know,please share this with people
in your network, engage indialogue, reach out to Arlene
(54:13):
and people that PAVE Prevention.
Like, share, subscribe.
If you would like to getin touch with me, you
can visit our website atlivingunapologetically.
com.
You'll have access to socialmedia handles, email on there.
We have freebies.
You'll also have access to mybook Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
(54:35):
I think that is it.
Thanks so much forlistening or watching.
And I hope to hearfrom you soon.
So until next time, bye.
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