October 15, 2024 • 51 mins
In this episode of the Living Out Loud Discussion Series, I chat with Jared Zachary about the intricacies of navigating relationships and needs assessments within organizations. We highlight the various methods of conducting needs assessments, such as surveys and focus groups, noting their strengths and limitations. We also name the importance of addressing emotions, fears, and resistance that arise during organizational change initiatives. Personal anecdotes and professional insights illustrate the delicate balance between strategic tasks and emotional intelligence essential for meaningful and sustainable improvements.
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EPISODE CHAPTERS
00:00 Setting the Stage
01:30 Jared Zachary
04:16 Needs Assessments
07:25 Methods
14:38 Challenges
16:59 Phases
26:43 Clinical Aspects
28:58 Push Back with Validating Qualitative Data
31:10 Emotional Impact on Staff and Leaders
35:03 Implementing Actionable Change
47:52 Addressing White Supremacy in Research
50:42 Final Thoughts and Resources
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I've been in that positionin many organizations where
(00:02):
coming back into day to daywork after we had a focus
group, I felt like I hada scarlet letter on me.
I thought I had a targeton my back and that's
not a good feeling.
And I would have appreciatedmaybe more of acknowledging
that like any relationship, thisis a relationship, a working
relationship, and we willtake necessary precautions to
(00:22):
get through this versus not.
Uncomfortablefeelings are shared.
I can tell you don't likeme particularly right now,
but we're going back tojust business as usual.
That's not howrelationships work.
We're in another episodeof the Living Out Loud
Discussion Series, and todaywe are talking about what
happens when an organizationdoes a needs assessment.
(00:43):
I'm your host, Charmaine Utz,a Relational DEI expert, and
we are unpacking real lifescenarios and issues that come
up in professional settings orin spaces where we feel like
we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every single episodeis to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our interactionswith each other so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
(01:04):
As always, the things that Isay, share, my viewpoints in
this episode, they are my ownand not as representative of
any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
(01:30):
Today I have with me JaredZachary in the space.
I am super excitedto have you here.
I feel like I've been waitingto have you here and just
first, let me thank you forsharing space with me today.
Hello, Charmaine.
I'm so happy to be here.
(01:51):
Oh goodness.
Yeah.
So we met several years ago.
I'm not even trying to count.
And I feel like when weworked at an organization
together, we probably saweach other in passing and
then by fate were pairedin a mentor/mentee program.
And from there,it just took off.
I felt you know what, if anyonewere to be matched with me,
(02:12):
I was so glad it was you.
You are a special human being.
You walk around with so muchawareness and vulnerability, and
you pick things up so quickly.
I just, I just feel luckyand blessed to have been
paired with you that dayand that our relationship
continued and here we are.
(02:33):
And I can't wait totalk about stuff.
I'm super excited.
I think about that day a lot.
And at first I was like,yeah, because at first I
remember being like, ofcourse they paired the
black people together.
But then later I waslike, oh, this was like
a match made in heaven.
And so I'm reallyappreciative of the
journey that we've been on.
So I'm happy to be here.
(02:54):
Yeah.
I remember we took that picture.
It's like a super oldpicture, but I still have it.
It's up somewhereand I don't know.
I don't even take a lotof pictures like that,
but it Oh my gosh, we didsomething cool and we are
impacting each other's lives.
I am very...
I could be skepticalabout a lot of things.
So I thought, okay, a mentorprogram, let me volunteer and
(03:15):
let's just see how it goes.
You might've felt similarly,but it really felt like
that was a success for me.
It was really different andit helped me open my mind.
Not everything needs tobe something you have
to be skeptical of.
And it's been really cool to,like I said, watch our journey
over the course of time.
I feel the same way.
(03:35):
I love that.
My heart.
Jared, would you mindintroducing yourself,
share whatever it is thatyou want to our listeners.
Hello everyone.
I'm Jared Zachary.
I am an avocadolover, a coffee lover.
I work in research.
I'm a registered yoga teacherin a full time Beyonce stand,
(03:56):
and I'm happy to be here.
Okay.
I, first of all, I did notknow about the yoga thing.
This is new to me.
And how cool is that?
Things I did quietlyduring the pandemic.
That makes sense.
I could totally see that in you.
When you say researcher,could you share a little
bit more about that?
Especially cause today's lensis about needs assessments.
(04:20):
Yeah, so I will say, so Iwork for an organization that
does research and evaluationfor other, I would say,
public facing organizations.
I didn't know this wasa job until I think
the work that we did.
But I feel like a lot oforganizations want to get
a third party to know whattheir data says, get an
unbiased opinion aboutwhat their data is speaking
(04:42):
to, for contract reasons.
Have a third party to be able tovalidate what their data says.
And so we help a lotof organizations know
what their impact is.
And so I do researchthrough that way.
Okay.
And as you said that, I justrealized too, I need to make
a statement about myself.
I feel like I have been involvedin data and research and
(05:05):
evaluation stuff for years,and I am still the person who-
the words, like the words,in that space, I'm always
like, I just use my own wordssometimes or casual language.
And then when I speak to someonewho is way more involved in that
industry, like you are, you'regoing to say terms and I'm going
(05:28):
to know what they are, but Iwon't speak them the same way.
It'll be like, yeah, youknow, when you get all the
people in the same room andyou talk about things like
that's how I say stuff.
So give me some grace there.
And I also think that'sfair, because I do feel
like I mentioned, I didn'tknow this was a job until
I think our paths crossed.
And I didn't think this was ajob that I could get because
(05:52):
maybe imposter syndrome, itseemed, outside of myself.
I was like, there's wordsI don't know, there's
tactics I don't know.
And being in the field, Ithink it's a lot of things
that we are intuitive to,and so I don't think...
yeah, at that same time, I wantto dispel that I think research
seems like this very high levelthing that I think a lot of us
do in our every day to day life.
(06:13):
Yes.
I thank you for that.
I think about yesterday Iwas in a conversation with
someone and I was describingall the things in the future
and what I would like to dowith data and I was really
describing what I imagined.
And then she goes,Oh, so correlation.
I was like, girl,yeah, yes, that is it.
But also all thethings I said, okay.
I don't want to loseall the things I said.
(06:33):
So I'm actually glad that youstarted with that because.
I do feel like when peopletalk about data, research,
numbers, or even stories andit just feels like a thing
over here that people whohave the brain for it can do.
And if you don't have thatbrain, then it's something
that you can't comprehend.
And there's a lotof distance from it.
(06:55):
So I actually appreciatewhat you just said.
And I would really like tokeep that something that we're
grounded in when we talk.
Thank you for that.
Of course, of course.
Okay.
I always like to start witha baseline of what we are
talking about because peoplecan think a lot of things.
I think it's a goodplace to start with what
(07:16):
are needs assessments?
What are the various types?
Are there any common ones?
Why are they common?
And we'll just go from there.
So I feel like needs assessmentsare pretty standard, but I
think maybe people really don'tunderstand what their, what
their use is, what they're for.
But I feel like needsassessments is when you
basically do a survey,an assessment, in a very
(07:39):
inquisitive sense, are trying toassess like where organization
is at, what is resources,what are its benefits and
maybe where are spaces foropportunity to get to the point
that you really want to get to.
It's a way to survey,where are you at point A
and like where, what isneeded to get to point B?
So a lot of times, it'll bean organization that wants to
(08:03):
improve in X, Y, and Z, andwe're talking to staff, talking
to participants, surveyingits inputs to see what are
the strengths and like whereare room for opportunity.
Okay, and there's allkinds of different ways
to do needs assessments.
One I'm actually thinking aboutof course, organizationally,
(08:25):
but then people could doneeds assessments in smaller
senses and pockets ofteams and stuff like that.
But it could be helpfulto talk about the various
types of needs assessments.
Because I know there'ssurveys and then there's
also focus groups and thenthere's mixed methods.
I don't know if you haveanything to add to what I just
said, but if there's a way toshine a light on the various
(08:45):
ways that organizations doneeds assessments and which
ones are the ones that youfind most common because I know
there's some in my mind I'mcurious about what you think.
Yeah, and so I will say Ithink in these assessments is
a broad term, but I feel likethere's different methods to
get closer to what you want.
I've seen organizationthese assessments where
(09:06):
A broader organization isjust trying to see where
they're at in the field.
I think as you described,I think there's been teams
where they're trying toevaluate where, what the
skills are on their teams.
For bigger organizations, Ithink I've seen surveys be
used, which I think is a reallyeasy, maybe lower risk way
to get a feel of how folks arefeeling about any given topic.
(09:29):
I've seen focus groupsin interviews used, and I
think that is maybe moreseen as labor intensive.
And I think in the researchworld, qualitative data
gets a bad rap comparedto quantitative data.
Interviews and focus groupswhere you're talking to folks
one on one, where you're gettingfolks direct words about how
(09:50):
they feel about somethingis a way more rich way to
understand and experienceor understand how folks are
feeling about any given topic inorganization to then take that
to come up with a game plan.
And so I do think a lot ofresearch folk see surveys and
quant as the gold standard, butI think, a lot of organizations
(10:13):
that are in like communityresearch really appreciate focus
groups and interviews becauseI think qualitative is where
stories can back up numbers.
Yes, yeah, I really paintsa picture and I think
he used the word rich.
You had also use another wordearlier about low risk and
(10:33):
that really sat with me Ifeel like people love surveys.
There's, and I don'tthink there's anything
wrong with a survey.
I think surveys canhelp tell something.
And then there's lots ofother ways of knowing.
Like you said, there'sinterviews and focus groups.
We've even done like largertown halls and we do it in
such a way where there's also away to share stuff anonymously
(10:55):
or directly to facilitatorsand things like that.
I have just always found thatthere's too much learned and
revealed in the qualitativespaces when they're open for
people to share that you cannot,it just is not captured in
regular quantitative surveys.
And there's almost, maybelike an expectation and
(11:18):
hopefully it's reducing.
I feel like it's reducing.
But people feel like justbecause there's a box on
a survey, people can typein your feelings here.
Not all things canbe communicated by
typing it into a box.
It's not, it doesn'talways happen that way.
Some people need to say it outloud and some people, and I
cannot tell you how many times,as a result of having the space
(11:41):
via focus groups or a town hall,because this is where multiple
people are sharing, that is thespace where people realize what
they're thinking and feeling.
They literally are seeing itand they're like, Oh my gosh,
I didn't know that was a thing.
Okay.
This is my whole thing.
And it's, it becomes morethan an information gathering.
It's also facilitating aprocess and people's discovery
(12:03):
and things that come up forpeople because so much happens
in those spaces and you cannotcapture that in a survey.
Yeah.
No, exactly.
And even, I think you like,you get a survey, you see
the number of responses,you put in a chart, cool.
But even in focus groups,interviews, I feel like
(12:23):
I remember my firstbehavioral health class and
it was Oh, all behavior isjust needs communicated.
And even I did a focus groupa couple of weeks ago, and
the simple fact that, peopleknew it was being recorded
and numerous people said,I don't feel comfortable to
answer the next question.
That is that's data.
Even in what's communicatedand what's not communicated
(12:46):
is telling a story.
And that was something wewere able to bring back, Oh, a
lot of your staff didn't feelcomfortable to answer number
three and we don't have ananswer for that, but that is
and it's not the answer thatpeople didn't feel safe.
And that's just so muchthat you don't get captured
when people are clickingthrough a 12 question survey.
(13:11):
After a while, I'm like, Ican't just, I just, I care
that you have the information,but also I don't have it
in me to do it this way.
So I try to take surveys whenI'm really able to sit down, but
that's neither here nor there.
I was thinking about theimportance of mixed methods,
and I feel like a lotof organizations are not
sitting on a pile of moneyto spend on a lot of things.
(13:34):
So then decisions haveto be made about how
they gather information.
Cause the more spaces thatare held, the more information
you gather, the longerit takes to do something
and analyze the data andall the stuff after that.
But I love a goodcombination of things.
Like there's, I still thinka survey is cool, but if I
(13:55):
were to let one go, I tendto see if that one could be
let go first because I knowit won't capture everything
that you can capture in eitherfocus groups or larger town
halls or even individual ones.
My favorite are when you cando a combo of all of them.
And when we have the focusgroups or it's larger town halls
(14:15):
and then there's space peopleknow, if you don't feel safe
to do this here, then there'sindividual time you can schedule
here so that you can share.
And it's not infront of everybody.
That leaves more room tocapture as much as possible.
And.
I want to go back to that term,low risk with the surveys.
(14:38):
I think in addition tomoney, many leaders and
organizations can worry aboutwhat will happen when you
start to talk to their staff.
And I think that's importantinformation as well.
It's so do you want toknow, or do you want to just
hear something specific?
I don't like that very much.
(14:59):
And I try tonormalize that fear.
I get the initial fear.
That's okay causehumans are humans.
It's oh my gosh, whatare we about to hear?
You're gonna hear something.
And if you are so afraid orwhatever other feelings to the
point where you would choosenot to go beyond a regular
(15:21):
quantitative survey, becauseof your fear, that's different.
That's very different.
And I saw you weregoing to say something.
So I'm going to stop talking.
You talk now.
No, you just brought likea lot of thoughts because
I think, in the term, needsassessment, we are trying to
survey what the needs are.
And I think a lot of folks,a lot of leaders, a lot
of organizations go intoa needs assessment hoping
(15:45):
that their idea of what isthe norm will be validated.
And so when you do a needsassessment and then you realize
that there is a differentstory or a different experience
that you're not used to,people get really scared.
And I think it's easier tomitigate that in a survey when
it's four choices per questionand maybe one question at
(16:07):
the end that is a text box.
Versus in interviews wherepeople go on tangents and you,
we have probing questions andit brings back a memory and
which is at the end of the day,if you love your organization,
that's what you want to knowall the varying experiences
so that a change can be made.
But when those changes arebrought up to you and it's maybe
(16:29):
different than your perceptionof what's been happening,
that's hard to sit with.
And I just don't think a lotof folks, one, anticipate that
being a part of the process,and two, are ready to hear that.
And which makes sense, I thinkit's a human reaction to,
have a bodily reaction whenyour sense of reality doesn't
(16:50):
meet others, and especiallywhen it's more positive.
But yeah, I think, yeah,just as you brought that up,
it's like, I've seen thatbe an obstacle with so many.
As you're talking about whatyou're talking about right
now, I am remembering when youand I were preparing for what
would this look like, what ourconversation today looked like.
And we were talking aboutthe different phases of this
(17:11):
process and you're talkingabout some of it right now.
And we thought it's threephases, if you will.
What's at the beginningand the preparation and the
excitement that people feelto do something different.
That's real.
I believe many organizationswant to hear to do different,
but don't understand whatit all comes with very much.
(17:32):
So that initial,yeah, I support it.
I'm down.
I'm excited.
Let's, create change together.
And then there'slike a middle part.
A middle part is hearing theinformation and deciding whether
or not to do something with it.
And phase three for me is ifyou get past phase two, then
(17:56):
three is you can actuallydo something with it.
But we had talked aboutphase two is a place where
people get really stuck.
I want to pause and actuallyask you, is that how you
conceptualize the phases?
And what do you, letme just ask that.
Let me ask that only.
Yes.
I feel like, yes, I feel likephase one, people either want
(18:21):
to validate their findings,want to reassure that their idea
of where they stand is true.
Or are very open to gettinginformation, bringing
in a contractor, they'relike knowing, wanting to
know what they don't know.
And I think that's wecall it a lot of times
like discovery phase.
And I think that's veryexciting to a lot of
organizations, a lot of people.
(18:42):
Even just like anindividual person.
I think we want to know more.
A lot of times, the processwill be done, like research
will be done, interviews,focus groups, whatever.
And I think phase two is wherefolks get stuck a lot, where new
information is brought to them.
A lot of times it'snot congruent with
what our beliefs are.
Phase three will be wheremaybe some recommendations are
(19:05):
given and there's opportunityto be, to create changes.
And it seems like people getstuck like right before there.
As you were talking, Ifeel like a term I used in
college, I talk a lot ofsexual health and we would
always talk about aftercare.
And I feel like after phasetwo, there needs to be some
(19:25):
aftercare that a lot of folksmaybe just aren't ready to do or
don't know how to do of we heardsome uncomfortable information.
How do we sit through that?
How do we sift through that?
How do we sit through that?
How do we get everyone onthe same page again after we
realize that we are all thinkingabout things differently.
And I feel like thatis really hard to do.
(19:45):
And it's easy to, I thinka lot of folks, yeah,
the momentum stops there.
Yes.
Task groups dissipate.
And then a couple yearslater, everything starts
again at phase one.
Right, right.
Okay.
You said a couple things and oneis, I love the idea of aftercare
(20:08):
and I like the idea of prevent.
Is it a preventative?
I can never say that word.
At Living Unapologetically,we try so hard to prepare.
But I feel like it doesn'tquite, it's there's not been
enough ability to preparewhat you will experience.
It's almost like you said.
(20:29):
It's a desire or an expectationto hear something that will
validate or not expectingsomething too far away from
the reality that people, thatleaders are experiencing.
So there's that.
But at least up front,it's also helpful to start
building the capacity to hearhard things and not just,
(20:49):
discount it or whatever it is.
To me, phase two iswhere leaders are faced
with a lot of emotions.
A lot.
I have seen an absoluterejection of the
information, like it's false.
I have seen anger,defensiveness, confusion,
(21:10):
guilt, sadness and, shame,which is that shame and guilt.
So many things that contributeto that stuck point that doesn't
get people to that phase three.
There's so much stuck there.
And I find too, that it's veryhelpful if whoever is doing
(21:30):
the research has the skillset,like a clinical skillset
too, to help through that.
Because it's not, peoplearen't just dealing with
reading information.
They're dealing with what'shappening inside of them.
And this is what's contributingto the stuck point.
I, you're, you'reso, expressive.
Just tell me whatyou're thinking.
Cause I want to know.
No, and that resonates, becauseI think, even in the role I'm
(21:52):
in now, and I feel like I hada lot of imposter syndrome,
I was like, I'm not good atquant, I don't, statistics not
my thing, but a leader at myjob was like, okay, but you've
worked in social services.
And you know what it's likewhen that is your identity.
And a lot of times we areproviding information that
(22:12):
goes against how folksfeel about their identity.
And she was and that's aconversation you can't just
throw someone who's neverbeen, in the trenches.
She was like, a lot of ourstaff hasn't been on the
street arguing with one oftheir youth about a bus pass.
or been working in a shelterand arguing with ladies about
(22:33):
why they can't bring in soap.
And so she's like, when you,a lot of times we, when,
especially I think it's hardbecause a lot of the needs
assessments we do, which I thinkit's a shame that in this field,
it's like more contractuallya norm to be assessed.
But like in helping fields, Ithink we're doing education,
(22:54):
social work, public health,and a lot of these helping
fields where people reallylatch onto that as an identity.
I am a social worker, I ama teacher, I am a public
health worker, and that'sa noble identity to have on
that most of society acceptsas just naturally good.
And so when you provideinformation, That still
(23:17):
acknowledges all the good thatis attached with that, but
shows room for improvement.
That hurts.
When you're in the grocerystore and you say I'm a social
worker, people are like, Oh mygosh, like you were so strong.
I couldn't do that.
Like when you say I'm ateacher, you are so strong.
I couldn't do that.
And so when you provideinformation that just
challenges, like what youthought about your identity,
that is really hard to sit with.
(23:39):
Mm
In my work, I think wetry to acknowledge that.
We, a lot of times, providereally hard information, but
because of how much you careabout your field, you want it to
be better, or how much you careabout your organization, you
want it to naturally improve.
And, trying to carry thathumanity in with what are
(24:00):
the next steps, which I thinksometimes can easily get lost,
or it's natural to not feelthat on the receiving side.
Yeah.
Yes.
You're almost making mewonder too, the way that
information is shared, I don'tthere's no, I haven't seen
any real standard for how todo that part of the process.
(24:21):
Because I'm almost thinkingabout what it would be like to
really prepare people for takingin the information beyond, hey,
heads up, blah, blah, blah.
It's something veryintentional to at least
ground in the moment andreassurance and acknowledging
of emotions and knowingthat there's space for it.
(24:43):
But the intention to do thatis so you can hear this.
And then, move through it.
Because a lot of, I can'tspeak for everybody.
I'm just speaking from myown personal experience.
I'm just saying, because theseare typically done not terribly
clinically, it feels a lot ofhard information is shared.
(25:06):
It's abrupt and there isn'tvery much support to struggle
through it to do different.
That's an onus on a, like acontractor, service provider.
And then there's a majoronus on leaders who are
going through the work.
There's, I'm hoping peopleare understanding this
expectation of, you can havethe most best intentions.
(25:27):
You can be a wonderful human.
You can, I don't even knowwhat else to say about that.
I think there's a lot of wellintentioned, well meaning
people who want to do work.
And those are also peoplewho experience these things.
And to have realisticexpectations for self
and leadership teams thatyou're not going to like it.
I have not met any groupof people who loved hearing
(25:50):
things weren't going well.
Yes.
Can that be okay?
Can we accept, I'm going tohear something I don't like.
Yeah.
think more cliniciansshould go into research.
Whoever's listening,y'all are needed.
But as you said that, I had aglimpse where I'm like, I don't
(26:11):
mind sharing, me and my partnerwe're in couples therapy.
And I think the way that, Ourtherapist would ask us questions
and be, prepare us emotionallythat I might not hear something
I like from my partner.
And how scary thatfelt initially.
But having someone with clinicalbackground walk us through
that process and it became moreregular and it became easier
(26:32):
to hear and it, and at theend of the day, it felt like
us united against a problem,not us against each other.
That same process needs to bewrapped in to needs assessments.
And if you don't have that, evenbehavioral health background,
but clinical background,that's not always wrapped,
(26:52):
intrinsic to the process.
Yeah.
It's not, I think I don't wantto veer too far from the topic,
but I believe that is a thing inmany DEI related types of work.
It's not seen as clinical yet.
(27:13):
It's not, It's like anadministrative position and
that I'm not saying peoplein administrative positions
that don't have a clinicalbackground aren't doing well.
I'm just saying that there's aclinical aspect to the work that
hasn't quite been embedded ina way that I think is needed.
It's, we are dealing with humansthat are having these responses.
(27:33):
And these humans, these leaders,are responsible for this change.
And there's so much strugglein all of these moments.
So I, I don't want to gettoo far, it would be really
interesting to do that.
And people in organizationsdoing needs assessments.
Let's arrive at this place wherethere's realistic expectations.
(27:53):
There's going to be a part ofthis journey that you're really
excited about in discovery.
There's going to be a partthat's really not fun.
to hear that people don't enjoyeverything about the workplace.
And then there is a chancefor you to be engaged
enough to change it.
So you don't keepthat from happening.
(28:14):
Cause if leaders choose toabandon or leave and just
don't even go to phasethree and not trying to do
anything, you really arechoosing your own self.
You don't like how you feel,so you stop the process
and you actually now knowwhat people are saying.
Or you just heard whatpeople are saying.
And sometimes the defensemechanism is to discount, deny
(28:38):
the validity of the information.
That's a whole other thing.
It's a whole other thing.
It's fascinating to me howpeople can say that's not true.
What happened?
And I'm like, prettysure it happened.
Yes, it is.
Have you had that?
Sounds like you have.
Yeah.
(28:58):
and I really, I appreciate it,my, my organizations, I think.
We are trying to put ina lot of practices that
I think challenge the wayfolks think about research.
Even which big organizationslove to hear things
that are gold standard,like rigorous research.
That means a surveyof 100 plus people who
(29:19):
answered this way, and it'sstatistically significant,
blah, blah, blah, whatever.
And we know that that is aspecific method that was come
up by specific people and that'snot, while it's valid, there are
other ways to bring validity.
When you bring othermethods and it highlights
different experiences, it'sreally easy to discount.
(29:40):
think Folks really do notlike qualitative data.
And for some reason that'sreally easy to discount.
That was anecdotal.
That was oneperson's experience.
Even if you talk to 10 peopleacross 10 different teams that
had different experiences.
I think even just dependingon, what you look like and
how you are presenting data.
(30:00):
As much as organizations, aretrying hard to make research
more accessible and use termsthat people are familiar with.
I know sometimes as like a Blackperson myself and I try to make
sure that everyone's on thesame level and I bring a air of
comfort, to make sure everyoneunderstands what I'm saying,
(30:21):
which I think is a strength.
At the same time, if that'snot something someone wants
to hear, it's really easy topeg that as oh, that wasn't
real, and it seems like Jared'sinterpreting slang, and as
much as people validate thesedifferent methods because it
brings different perspectives,because it's different than
the norms, when it's notwhat folks want to hear, it's
(30:43):
really easy to peg almostthe downfall on those things.
Yes.
I think there's a lot of wayspeople can discount, invalidate
very real things, especiallyif there's stake in it.
If I can avoid doing something,I can see the problems.
(31:07):
I can see them.
I can see them.
But I just, I think that'swhat makes it hard to be in
this particular industry.
There were a coupleof situations when we
first started out LivingUnapologetically, a couple of
situations that went not well.
But went not well becauseof people's responses to
(31:29):
very real information.
And I was feeling like,okay, first of all, I don't
this is activating for me.
I've already been in asituation where people told me
that what I said wasn't real.
This is not cool at all.
And then two is Oh my gosh, amI participating in this problem?
I would remember being a staffmember and someone would come
in and there's a whole hooplaand nothing would happen.
(31:51):
And then I started seeing,are we doing that thing?
Are we coming into organizationstrying to help them?
And then they just disregard it.
So I really started,it wasn't just me.
Me and a couple other people.
We were thinking about howcould we also interview
organizations before westart working with them?
At least have they at leastarrived at certain places?
(32:13):
Have they acknowledged whitesupremacy culture is real and
they all participate in it?
If they're there, okay, we're alittle further along than places
who are still like, well, Idon't know, we could maybe, or
it's not as concrete for them.
So we have this, we haddeveloped something for us
that we knew it would bea healthier relationship.
Doesn't mean it would be easy.
(32:33):
It was just healthier.
But when you said that I juststarted thinking about the
various ways that people willdistance from the information.
And I think it's also helpfulfor us to talk about what
else do we see in leadersor even staff in this place?
It could either be phasetwo where they're struggling
through it and decidingwhether or not to do it.
Or phase three, which ismaybe start to do something
(32:56):
and stop or just choose notto do phase three at all.
And you're like on alot of good points.
In my organization, we have avetting process and that sounds
fancier than it is, but it'sreally not only logistically,
but when we look at a client,are they at a point where we
will be able to do the workthat they're contracting us to?
(33:18):
Especially, I think folkslook at the website, look at
the mission note we're about.
But based off what weheard, does this seem
like it will be a fruitfulrelationship for both of us?
As in, yeah, are you ina space to maybe hear
uncomfortable information?
I think that's a thing wetalk about a lot of times.
Phase two, and especiallythat aftercare, and I think
I've seen a lot of reallydifficult conversations
(33:42):
happen well, is that...
which I think maybepeople really just don't
expect with like needsassessment or research is
like that people aspect.
A lot of time when we presentdata, it's not a one and done.
It is an ongoing dialogue thatmaybe happens over the span of
time of when you saw this, whatwere your initial reactions?
What do you feel likethis data is saying?
(34:03):
What did it, and alsodifferent questions, what did
it feel like it was saying?
What might itactually be saying?
Yes.
Because, you know, you mightsee something about participant
satisfaction and it felt like,Oh, I'm not good at my job.
And that's maybe noteven what it said.
It might've just saidthat people need more
support in X, Y, and Z.
(34:25):
But we have developed like aset of questions to really talk
through that process of that,the end of phase two is one,
remembering your organization'smission and why we started
this in the first place.
I think also an element ofseparating ego from data,
that data is storytelling andit's storytelling about your
organization, about processes,about experiences, and it,
(34:48):
that doesn't necessarily meanit's attached to Jared the case
manager or Jared the researcher.
Remembering that, aftermaybe sitting through a
lot of those hard emotions
and really digging into whatis this data telling us?
It's telling us that employeesneed to feel a greater
(35:09):
sense of belonging or likeparticipants need to feel they
have more resources, then wecan move to phase three of
creating actionable change.
And not only these overarchingfindings, but more I used to
work at a hospital where we hadto do yearly needs assessments,
we call it improvement plans,based off of the data in three
(35:31):
years, what is our improvementplan for this next cycle?
And tangible steps.
And I think that is reallyneeded, because I think a lot
of times change gets lost.
Because of the uncomfortablenessin phase two, but creating like
a tangible play by play of whatthe next phase will be, what
are incremental changes thatcould happen is imperative.
(35:54):
But because of that emotionalness and because it's heart I
don't think we always get there.
I don't even think everybodygets to the place where they
acknowledge it's heart work.
I see that there's a lot ofstrategy and task stuff very
(36:17):
much associated with it withoutthe acknowledgement of the
individual, the individualizedpersonal experiences that are
part of the strategic task work.
And people really want toseparate that, which is,
white supremacy culture thing.
Like people want to, Idon't like these feelings
when I get through itso I can do the tasks.
(36:39):
You actually have tobring that with you.
The only way that's successfulis if this is with you and
this gets worked on too.
So when you said that, I'mlike, I'm just, I'm pretty
sure a lot of people don't dothat because there's so much
effort to just separate itbecause it's really hard and
they want to just do a good job.
(37:00):
And then I'm thinking about,I just think a lot about
staff experiences in allof this stuff and what that
emotional rollercoaster islike, because it is one.
And if they're not on anemotional rollercoaster,
that means because they'vehad enough and they're just
sitting outside till they'reready to go somewhere else.
They're just not on it.
(37:20):
I already know howthat ride goes.
I've been on it.
No thanks.
The rollercoaster is theseexpressions of caring and
we're going to do different.
It seems like, okay, we'regetting on the ride, everybody.
And then, there's this pointwhere everybody can see,
everybody knows what's happeningin an organization when needs
assessments occur, and it's,the staff understand, they
(37:43):
might not be in the rooms, butthey know we've seen it, okay?
They know the informationcomes, and then there's
this waiting period ofwhat's happening from here.
Now that the informationhas been shared, What's
it going to look like?
I know plenty of staff knowthat when information is
shared, there's actuallya lot of uncomfortability.
They don't know what it's goingto be like going into team
(38:03):
meetings and supervisions,because as much as leaders want
to not act different, they gointo meetings and supervisions
just a little extra, sauciness.
And it doesn't have to be, it'snot always the data, but I even
think it's important to knowthat there's stuff happening
in your organization with yourstaff when this is happening.
(38:26):
If you're having a bad daybecause of something personal,
you might even want to just beaware that this is the climate
right now for your team.
If this is sauciness becauseof something else, just
let people know there'ssomething else going on.
It's not that.
And then be aware that peoplego into these things with
sauciness because of the data.
And that is what it is.
And don't act like it isn'ta normal human response.
(38:50):
I
can say as someone thathears things and someone
that like, I care very muchabout hearing stuff, but
still really hard to hear it.
I don't like hearing Ididn't do a good job.
I will hear it because I needto, but it doesn't feel good.
It doesn't feel good.
It doesn't.
And I feel like that's apart of the aftercare too,
it's okay to acknowledge
(39:12):
Yes.
the feelings thatcome after that.
I know, and especiallyas, as simple as you're a
supervisor and you had abad day, maybe we don't need
to have this one on one.
Or we're sitting in likea cultural shift and
someone was very outspoken.
And I know I've been in thatposition in many organizations
where coming back into dayto day work after we had a
focus group, I felt like Ihad a scarlet letter on me.
(39:33):
I thought I had a targeton my back and that's
not a good feeling.
And I would have appreciatedmaybe more of acknowledging
that like any relationship, thisis a relationship, a working
relationship, and we willtake necessary precautions to
get through this versus not.
Uncomfortablefeelings are shared.
(39:54):
I can tell you don't likeme particularly right now,
but we're going back tojust business as usual.
That's not howrelationships work.
Yes.
And again, that's that's whyit's heart work because it's
people and it's relationships.
And you said something in thereand I don't remember your exact
words, but to me, what I washearing is this invitation to
like, if you're having your ownpersonal experience, that's fine
(40:17):
as human, but take care of that.
Don't just bring it with you.
And then whatever thatlooks like, I do this.
Cause I usually saythrow up on people.
It feels like that, but youjust, you don't like it.
And you want people toknow you don't like it.
And it's so harmful, damaging.
It can be passiveaggressive or aggressive.
(40:37):
There's some direct commentsthat I've been made aware of.
There have been situationswhere I've had someone
come in after a situationoccurred, people shared things.
We'll go into a meeting andbe like, well, we're going to
do this since I heard peopledon't like blah, blah, blah.
And it's
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
common.
You would think, Hey,don't do these things,
(40:59):
but what will happen isI'm not in all the spaces.
So I'm not saying that everybodydoes this, but I'm saying y'all
I've been in enough spaces andI've been doing this long enough
to know this be happening.
Leaders will conveneand be on the same page,
but how to do stuff.
And, we're going to do better.
And then those individualleaders go into spaces where
(41:19):
no one, no other leader cansee, or no one was really
going to hold them accountable.
And then they go into spacesand they continue harm.
And then that harm thatcontinues is the very thing
that staff are saying thatthere's no accountability for.
And it's so difficult becausestaff are the ones that already
(41:40):
said, Hey, this is happening.
Okay.
We'll fix it.
Leader go back in.
It's still happening.
Well, then where else am Isupposed to go to say something?
Because this leader justcame up in here and basically
said, Hey, now that yousaid something, I'm going to
have this attitude with you.
And we're going todo it different and
do it begrudgingly.
And that doesn't helpany culture shift at all.
And is indicative oflook, leaders, it'd be
(42:05):
a struggle to do it.
It's okay.
It doesn't feel good.
I think that leadershipteams could do themselves
a justice and besupportive to allow space.
Can we just vent and say,we don't like it, but
let's do this for thepurpose of getting it out.
And then we don'twalk away after that.
We stay here and figureout what do we need to
get from this place?
Because this actually matters.
(42:26):
How can we support each other?
How can we supportstaff, but don't.
Dismiss that normalhuman response.
You can acknowledge it.
Just do something withit and take care of it.
So you can take care ofother people, the people
that you're responsible for.
You know, that justresonates a lot.
I think Yeah, there isa human element that
(42:50):
people just want to dismissand by dismissing it, it
makes the process harder.
I was on a project yesterdaywith a client that was very
hard and it meant a lot that asenior person than me was like,
oh, here's a word doc that wecan vent out our hard feelings
about why this project isdifficult and we can formulate
(43:10):
that in a more professionalway later about our evaluation.
But knowing that's hard, webring that into every meeting,
and that's not going away.
So, like, how canwe work with that?
I just think that shouldbe more normalized in
working in difficult times,hearing hard information.
So much of that, people wantto go unspoken, but by avoiding
(43:32):
it, it is making things worse.
That is really cool.
By the way.
I like that.
I was shocked, I was like, I
felt
Okay.
It's like F this blah, blah.
I felt very affirmed.
I was like, wow, thatis that meant a lot.
(43:54):
Especially like from some, whichI think is half of the aspect
too, that whether we talkedabout mentoring or someone
senior to role model, oh,I've been having a hard time.
I can only imagine whatpeople in a less leadership
position have been feeling.
I'm going to create thisopportunity for people to
vent about how they've beenfeeling about this project.
That meant a lot to me assomeone that was junior to her.
(44:16):
And so I think that is likealso a part of the process.
Yes.
Modeling creates, can createsafety and establish trust.
I think that's super important.
I do.
All right.
I feel like we can goin a lot of directions.
But I think it could be helpfulto just wrap up, like summarize.
I think we've beentalking about some things.
(44:37):
If someone's in phase two,about to go to phase three,
what are recommendations fororganizations, leaders and
organizations to get throughphase two to phase three
and to have it be solid,not abandoned phase three,
as soon as you start a workgroup and you don't like it.
(44:59):
I would say One recommendationis that hard information
doesn't mean you'renot doing a good job.
And so be willing to hearthings that change your
perception of reality.
You, need to go inwith an open mind.
And yeah, so justbe open to that.
That's the biggest thing.
And I also think turningfeedback into actionable change.
For most feedback, there is areal easy way that a statement
(45:22):
of participants don't feela sense of belonging that
can be turned into a, animprovement plan of the next
quarter of by the end of theyear, we will do X, Y, and Z.
That's where thingsget lost, too.
People don't know how to start.
Turning that feedback into bitesize, incremental goals for
(45:44):
the next quarter, I think, iswhere people lose the momentum.
If you go with open heartand look at feedback as your
blueprint of what's next, thatis, my highest recommendations.
Wholeheartedly,
for something, because from aneeds assessment, like you said,
(46:06):
there's so much work to be done.
And the work to be doneis likely over the course
of years and years.
So you're not going to be ableto do all of those things.
So understanding thatstarting point is helpful.
And if you don't know thestarting point, having the type
of support, coaching, mentorshipresources to identify what
makes sense and to do somethingthat builds upon each other.
(46:28):
That's for me, likewhen you said that.
Sometimes people, leadersmight pick the ones that they
really want to do, and thatmight not be the best route to
build things upon each other.
There might be, you might betrying to change something
over there when something priorto that has to shift first.
(46:49):
So think about pacing, but alsothinking about a build upon that
strengthens that other thing youwant to do out in the distance.
That feels so important.
And we were already talkingabout this, but I just
want to name it again.
And it's the building, theinternal, like the personal and
(47:09):
leadership team capacity to feelthings and feel through them to
stay connected to the processand stay connected to each other
and stay connected to staff.
If you're already inphase two, like you'd
start building it now.
If you're someone who's about todo one or do one again, really
think about what your capacitybuilding process is like.
(47:34):
It's not separate from, it'spart of it, it's part of it.
I just believe in that so much.
Wholeheartedly.
And you had said something too.
You were talking aboutrigor, abandoned rigor.
You were sayingsomething about that.
Can you tell, canyou speak on that?
Cause I forgot what it was.
Just to say it frankly,like there is not anything
(47:54):
on this earth whitesupremacy hasn't touched,
and that includes research.
And our idea of whatrigorous research is rooted
in who we've studied, whowe've modeled it after.
One person said that a hundredis statistically significant,
and surveys are built this way.
And there are all these typesof ways that the way that we
consider rigorous research doesnot resonate with everyone.
(48:16):
And so there are otherways to have rigor.
There is rigorous waysto have qualitative data.
I think a lot of these othermethods that people like to
frown upon that highlightpeople and humans way more
than a 10 question survey.
And so I think people need tobe open to abandon our sense of
(48:38):
what rigorous, like what rigoris, what gold standard is to
bring in folks who have not beenable to have their voices heard.
I just want to say thisone thing to what you said.
And it's I can't help,but notice that the people
who desire to move forwardwith quantitative stuff
(49:00):
in surveys are also thepeople that need more than a
quantitative type of response.
There's, and I don't knowanother way to say it, but
it's like a preference toproceed with only opening
a small door for staffto share information and
then, but then also havean individual need as a
(49:21):
leader for more than that.
More space to share, because Ithink an equivalent to offering
staff a survey is, here's yourinformation, deal with it.
And so there's a little bitof that's like incongruent.
It's a bit hypocritical.
A leader's response todata, to me, only reinforces
(49:43):
that this isn't somethingthat's just quantitative.
It's very human,story, person-oriented.
I don't know ifthat makes sense.
It makes sense in my mind.
No, that made a hundredpercent sense to me.
Ah.
You are a leader and youcare, you should want to
(50:03):
hear people's experiences.
And by narrowing that fromthe jump, I think is telling.
And I'm a qualitative person.
I love qual data, but likethey both, quant backs up,
we can have stories and thequant will tell us that, your
organization is 50 percentthis, that backs it up.
But there should be an element,especially with dealing with
needs assessments that aretalking to experiences that,
(50:26):
you should want to, youshould want to hear people's
voices, even if that's hard.
And by narrowing that fromthe jump, I think, is telling
to what you want to hear.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
I think it's a goodplace to wrap up here.
And Jared, thank you somuch for this whole convo.
(50:48):
I really enjoyed it.
And it really got me thinkingabout some things and how we
might do this differently.
Or how we mightwant to frame it.
You've just got me thinking.
So And I'm sure peoplefound this helpful.
If
You can look at MedicinalMelanin on Instagram,
(51:09):
but that's where I'm at.
Awesome.
If you want to get in touch withme, you can visit our website at
livingunapologetically.
com.
On there, you'll see socialmedia handles, email.
You can get in touch withus in any particular way.
If you liked this episode,please share it with
people in your network,have conversations,
(51:31):
like, comment, subscribe.
Oh, I forgot to mention thistoo, on the website, you'll
have access to my book,Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
And I think that's it for now.
And until next time, bye.
I've been in that positionin many organizations where
(00:02):
coming back into day to daywork after we had a focus
group, I felt like I hada scarlet letter on me.
I thought I had a targeton my back and that's
not a good feeling.
And I would have appreciatedmaybe more of acknowledging
that like any relationship, thisis a relationship, a working
relationship, and we willtake necessary precautions to
(00:22):
get through this versus not.
Uncomfortablefeelings are shared.
I can tell you don't likeme particularly right now,
but we're going back tojust business as usual.
That's not howrelationships work.
We're in another episodeof the Living Out Loud
Discussion Series, and todaywe are talking about what
happens when an organizationdoes a needs assessment.
(00:43):
I'm your host, Charmaine Utz,a Relational DEI expert, and
we are unpacking real lifescenarios and issues that come
up in professional settings orin spaces where we feel like
we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every single episodeis to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our interactionswith each other so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
(01:04):
As always, the things that Isay, share, my viewpoints in
this episode, they are my ownand not as representative of
any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
(01:30):
Today I have with me JaredZachary in the space.
I am super excitedto have you here.
I feel like I've been waitingto have you here and just
first, let me thank you forsharing space with me today.
Hello, Charmaine.
I'm so happy to be here.
(01:51):
Oh goodness.
Yeah.
So we met several years ago.
I'm not even trying to count.
And I feel like when weworked at an organization
together, we probably saweach other in passing and
then by fate were pairedin a mentor/mentee program.
And from there,it just took off.
I felt you know what, if anyonewere to be matched with me,
(02:12):
I was so glad it was you.
You are a special human being.
You walk around with so muchawareness and vulnerability, and
you pick things up so quickly.
I just, I just feel luckyand blessed to have been
paired with you that dayand that our relationship
continued and here we are.
(02:33):
And I can't wait totalk about stuff.
I'm super excited.
I think about that day a lot.
And at first I was like,yeah, because at first I
remember being like, ofcourse they paired the
black people together.
But then later I waslike, oh, this was like
a match made in heaven.
And so I'm reallyappreciative of the
journey that we've been on.
So I'm happy to be here.
(02:54):
Yeah.
I remember we took that picture.
It's like a super oldpicture, but I still have it.
It's up somewhereand I don't know.
I don't even take a lotof pictures like that,
but it Oh my gosh, we didsomething cool and we are
impacting each other's lives.
I am very...
I could be skepticalabout a lot of things.
So I thought, okay, a mentorprogram, let me volunteer and
(03:15):
let's just see how it goes.
You might've felt similarly,but it really felt like
that was a success for me.
It was really different andit helped me open my mind.
Not everything needs tobe something you have
to be skeptical of.
And it's been really cool to,like I said, watch our journey
over the course of time.
I feel the same way.
(03:35):
I love that.
My heart.
Jared, would you mindintroducing yourself,
share whatever it is thatyou want to our listeners.
Hello everyone.
I'm Jared Zachary.
I am an avocadolover, a coffee lover.
I work in research.
I'm a registered yoga teacherin a full time Beyonce stand,
(03:56):
and I'm happy to be here.
Okay.
I, first of all, I did notknow about the yoga thing.
This is new to me.
And how cool is that?
Things I did quietlyduring the pandemic.
That makes sense.
I could totally see that in you.
When you say researcher,could you share a little
bit more about that?
Especially cause today's lensis about needs assessments.
(04:20):
Yeah, so I will say, so Iwork for an organization that
does research and evaluationfor other, I would say,
public facing organizations.
I didn't know this wasa job until I think
the work that we did.
But I feel like a lot oforganizations want to get
a third party to know whattheir data says, get an
unbiased opinion aboutwhat their data is speaking
(04:42):
to, for contract reasons.
Have a third party to be able tovalidate what their data says.
And so we help a lotof organizations know
what their impact is.
And so I do researchthrough that way.
Okay.
And as you said that, I justrealized too, I need to make
a statement about myself.
I feel like I have been involvedin data and research and
(05:05):
evaluation stuff for years,and I am still the person who-
the words, like the words,in that space, I'm always
like, I just use my own wordssometimes or casual language.
And then when I speak to someonewho is way more involved in that
industry, like you are, you'regoing to say terms and I'm going
(05:28):
to know what they are, but Iwon't speak them the same way.
It'll be like, yeah, youknow, when you get all the
people in the same room andyou talk about things like
that's how I say stuff.
So give me some grace there.
And I also think that'sfair, because I do feel
like I mentioned, I didn'tknow this was a job until
I think our paths crossed.
And I didn't think this was ajob that I could get because
(05:52):
maybe imposter syndrome, itseemed, outside of myself.
I was like, there's wordsI don't know, there's
tactics I don't know.
And being in the field, Ithink it's a lot of things
that we are intuitive to,and so I don't think...
yeah, at that same time, I wantto dispel that I think research
seems like this very high levelthing that I think a lot of us
do in our every day to day life.
(06:13):
Yes.
I thank you for that.
I think about yesterday Iwas in a conversation with
someone and I was describingall the things in the future
and what I would like to dowith data and I was really
describing what I imagined.
And then she goes,Oh, so correlation.
I was like, girl,yeah, yes, that is it.
But also all thethings I said, okay.
I don't want to loseall the things I said.
(06:33):
So I'm actually glad that youstarted with that because.
I do feel like when peopletalk about data, research,
numbers, or even stories andit just feels like a thing
over here that people whohave the brain for it can do.
And if you don't have thatbrain, then it's something
that you can't comprehend.
And there's a lotof distance from it.
(06:55):
So I actually appreciatewhat you just said.
And I would really like tokeep that something that we're
grounded in when we talk.
Thank you for that.
Of course, of course.
Okay.
I always like to start witha baseline of what we are
talking about because peoplecan think a lot of things.
I think it's a goodplace to start with what
(07:16):
are needs assessments?
What are the various types?
Are there any common ones?
Why are they common?
And we'll just go from there.
So I feel like needs assessmentsare pretty standard, but I
think maybe people really don'tunderstand what their, what
their use is, what they're for.
But I feel like needsassessments is when you
basically do a survey,an assessment, in a very
(07:39):
inquisitive sense, are trying toassess like where organization
is at, what is resources,what are its benefits and
maybe where are spaces foropportunity to get to the point
that you really want to get to.
It's a way to survey,where are you at point A
and like where, what isneeded to get to point B?
So a lot of times, it'll bean organization that wants to
(08:03):
improve in X, Y, and Z, andwe're talking to staff, talking
to participants, surveyingits inputs to see what are
the strengths and like whereare room for opportunity.
Okay, and there's allkinds of different ways
to do needs assessments.
One I'm actually thinking aboutof course, organizationally,
(08:25):
but then people could doneeds assessments in smaller
senses and pockets ofteams and stuff like that.
But it could be helpfulto talk about the various
types of needs assessments.
Because I know there'ssurveys and then there's
also focus groups and thenthere's mixed methods.
I don't know if you haveanything to add to what I just
said, but if there's a way toshine a light on the various
(08:45):
ways that organizations doneeds assessments and which
ones are the ones that youfind most common because I know
there's some in my mind I'mcurious about what you think.
Yeah, and so I will say Ithink in these assessments is
a broad term, but I feel likethere's different methods to
get closer to what you want.
I've seen organizationthese assessments where
(09:06):
A broader organization isjust trying to see where
they're at in the field.
I think as you described,I think there's been teams
where they're trying toevaluate where, what the
skills are on their teams.
For bigger organizations, Ithink I've seen surveys be
used, which I think is a reallyeasy, maybe lower risk way
to get a feel of how folks arefeeling about any given topic.
(09:29):
I've seen focus groupsin interviews used, and I
think that is maybe moreseen as labor intensive.
And I think in the researchworld, qualitative data
gets a bad rap comparedto quantitative data.
Interviews and focus groupswhere you're talking to folks
one on one, where you're gettingfolks direct words about how
(09:50):
they feel about somethingis a way more rich way to
understand and experienceor understand how folks are
feeling about any given topic inorganization to then take that
to come up with a game plan.
And so I do think a lot ofresearch folk see surveys and
quant as the gold standard, butI think, a lot of organizations
(10:13):
that are in like communityresearch really appreciate focus
groups and interviews becauseI think qualitative is where
stories can back up numbers.
Yes, yeah, I really paintsa picture and I think
he used the word rich.
You had also use another wordearlier about low risk and
(10:33):
that really sat with me Ifeel like people love surveys.
There's, and I don'tthink there's anything
wrong with a survey.
I think surveys canhelp tell something.
And then there's lots ofother ways of knowing.
Like you said, there'sinterviews and focus groups.
We've even done like largertown halls and we do it in
such a way where there's also away to share stuff anonymously
(10:55):
or directly to facilitatorsand things like that.
I have just always found thatthere's too much learned and
revealed in the qualitativespaces when they're open for
people to share that you cannot,it just is not captured in
regular quantitative surveys.
And there's almost, maybelike an expectation and
(11:18):
hopefully it's reducing.
I feel like it's reducing.
But people feel like justbecause there's a box on
a survey, people can typein your feelings here.
Not all things canbe communicated by
typing it into a box.
It's not, it doesn'talways happen that way.
Some people need to say it outloud and some people, and I
cannot tell you how many times,as a result of having the space
(11:41):
via focus groups or a town hall,because this is where multiple
people are sharing, that is thespace where people realize what
they're thinking and feeling.
They literally are seeing itand they're like, Oh my gosh,
I didn't know that was a thing.
Okay.
This is my whole thing.
And it's, it becomes morethan an information gathering.
It's also facilitating aprocess and people's discovery
(12:03):
and things that come up forpeople because so much happens
in those spaces and you cannotcapture that in a survey.
Yeah.
No, exactly.
And even, I think you like,you get a survey, you see
the number of responses,you put in a chart, cool.
But even in focus groups,interviews, I feel like
(12:23):
I remember my firstbehavioral health class and
it was Oh, all behavior isjust needs communicated.
And even I did a focus groupa couple of weeks ago, and
the simple fact that, peopleknew it was being recorded
and numerous people said,I don't feel comfortable to
answer the next question.
That is that's data.
Even in what's communicatedand what's not communicated
(12:46):
is telling a story.
And that was something wewere able to bring back, Oh, a
lot of your staff didn't feelcomfortable to answer number
three and we don't have ananswer for that, but that is
and it's not the answer thatpeople didn't feel safe.
And that's just so muchthat you don't get captured
when people are clickingthrough a 12 question survey.
(13:11):
After a while, I'm like, Ican't just, I just, I care
that you have the information,but also I don't have it
in me to do it this way.
So I try to take surveys whenI'm really able to sit down, but
that's neither here nor there.
I was thinking about theimportance of mixed methods,
and I feel like a lotof organizations are not
sitting on a pile of moneyto spend on a lot of things.
(13:34):
So then decisions haveto be made about how
they gather information.
Cause the more spaces thatare held, the more information
you gather, the longerit takes to do something
and analyze the data andall the stuff after that.
But I love a goodcombination of things.
Like there's, I still thinka survey is cool, but if I
(13:55):
were to let one go, I tendto see if that one could be
let go first because I knowit won't capture everything
that you can capture in eitherfocus groups or larger town
halls or even individual ones.
My favorite are when you cando a combo of all of them.
And when we have the focusgroups or it's larger town halls
(14:15):
and then there's space peopleknow, if you don't feel safe
to do this here, then there'sindividual time you can schedule
here so that you can share.
And it's not infront of everybody.
That leaves more room tocapture as much as possible.
And.
I want to go back to that term,low risk with the surveys.
(14:38):
I think in addition tomoney, many leaders and
organizations can worry aboutwhat will happen when you
start to talk to their staff.
And I think that's importantinformation as well.
It's so do you want toknow, or do you want to just
hear something specific?
I don't like that very much.
(14:59):
And I try tonormalize that fear.
I get the initial fear.
That's okay causehumans are humans.
It's oh my gosh, whatare we about to hear?
You're gonna hear something.
And if you are so afraid orwhatever other feelings to the
point where you would choosenot to go beyond a regular
(15:21):
quantitative survey, becauseof your fear, that's different.
That's very different.
And I saw you weregoing to say something.
So I'm going to stop talking.
You talk now.
No, you just brought likea lot of thoughts because
I think, in the term, needsassessment, we are trying to
survey what the needs are.
And I think a lot of folks,a lot of leaders, a lot
of organizations go intoa needs assessment hoping
(15:45):
that their idea of what isthe norm will be validated.
And so when you do a needsassessment and then you realize
that there is a differentstory or a different experience
that you're not used to,people get really scared.
And I think it's easier tomitigate that in a survey when
it's four choices per questionand maybe one question at
(16:07):
the end that is a text box.
Versus in interviews wherepeople go on tangents and you,
we have probing questions andit brings back a memory and
which is at the end of the day,if you love your organization,
that's what you want to knowall the varying experiences
so that a change can be made.
But when those changes arebrought up to you and it's maybe
(16:29):
different than your perceptionof what's been happening,
that's hard to sit with.
And I just don't think a lotof folks, one, anticipate that
being a part of the process,and two, are ready to hear that.
And which makes sense, I thinkit's a human reaction to,
have a bodily reaction whenyour sense of reality doesn't
(16:50):
meet others, and especiallywhen it's more positive.
But yeah, I think, yeah,just as you brought that up,
it's like, I've seen thatbe an obstacle with so many.
As you're talking about whatyou're talking about right
now, I am remembering when youand I were preparing for what
would this look like, what ourconversation today looked like.
And we were talking aboutthe different phases of this
(17:11):
process and you're talkingabout some of it right now.
And we thought it's threephases, if you will.
What's at the beginningand the preparation and the
excitement that people feelto do something different.
That's real.
I believe many organizationswant to hear to do different,
but don't understand whatit all comes with very much.
(17:32):
So that initial,yeah, I support it.
I'm down.
I'm excited.
Let's, create change together.
And then there'slike a middle part.
A middle part is hearing theinformation and deciding whether
or not to do something with it.
And phase three for me is ifyou get past phase two, then
(17:56):
three is you can actuallydo something with it.
But we had talked aboutphase two is a place where
people get really stuck.
I want to pause and actuallyask you, is that how you
conceptualize the phases?
And what do you, letme just ask that.
Let me ask that only.
Yes.
I feel like, yes, I feel likephase one, people either want
(18:21):
to validate their findings,want to reassure that their idea
of where they stand is true.
Or are very open to gettinginformation, bringing
in a contractor, they'relike knowing, wanting to
know what they don't know.
And I think that's wecall it a lot of times
like discovery phase.
And I think that's veryexciting to a lot of
organizations, a lot of people.
(18:42):
Even just like anindividual person.
I think we want to know more.
A lot of times, the processwill be done, like research
will be done, interviews,focus groups, whatever.
And I think phase two is wherefolks get stuck a lot, where new
information is brought to them.
A lot of times it'snot congruent with
what our beliefs are.
Phase three will be wheremaybe some recommendations are
(19:05):
given and there's opportunityto be, to create changes.
And it seems like people getstuck like right before there.
As you were talking, Ifeel like a term I used in
college, I talk a lot ofsexual health and we would
always talk about aftercare.
And I feel like after phasetwo, there needs to be some
(19:25):
aftercare that a lot of folksmaybe just aren't ready to do or
don't know how to do of we heardsome uncomfortable information.
How do we sit through that?
How do we sift through that?
How do we sit through that?
How do we get everyone onthe same page again after we
realize that we are all thinkingabout things differently.
And I feel like thatis really hard to do.
(19:45):
And it's easy to, I thinka lot of folks, yeah,
the momentum stops there.
Yes.
Task groups dissipate.
And then a couple yearslater, everything starts
again at phase one.
Right, right.
Okay.
You said a couple things and oneis, I love the idea of aftercare
(20:08):
and I like the idea of prevent.
Is it a preventative?
I can never say that word.
At Living Unapologetically,we try so hard to prepare.
But I feel like it doesn'tquite, it's there's not been
enough ability to preparewhat you will experience.
It's almost like you said.
(20:29):
It's a desire or an expectationto hear something that will
validate or not expectingsomething too far away from
the reality that people, thatleaders are experiencing.
So there's that.
But at least up front,it's also helpful to start
building the capacity to hearhard things and not just,
(20:49):
discount it or whatever it is.
To me, phase two iswhere leaders are faced
with a lot of emotions.
A lot.
I have seen an absoluterejection of the
information, like it's false.
I have seen anger,defensiveness, confusion,
(21:10):
guilt, sadness and, shame,which is that shame and guilt.
So many things that contributeto that stuck point that doesn't
get people to that phase three.
There's so much stuck there.
And I find too, that it's veryhelpful if whoever is doing
(21:30):
the research has the skillset,like a clinical skillset
too, to help through that.
Because it's not, peoplearen't just dealing with
reading information.
They're dealing with what'shappening inside of them.
And this is what's contributingto the stuck point.
I, you're, you'reso, expressive.
Just tell me whatyou're thinking.
Cause I want to know.
No, and that resonates, becauseI think, even in the role I'm
(21:52):
in now, and I feel like I hada lot of imposter syndrome,
I was like, I'm not good atquant, I don't, statistics not
my thing, but a leader at myjob was like, okay, but you've
worked in social services.
And you know what it's likewhen that is your identity.
And a lot of times we areproviding information that
(22:12):
goes against how folksfeel about their identity.
And she was and that's aconversation you can't just
throw someone who's neverbeen, in the trenches.
She was like, a lot of ourstaff hasn't been on the
street arguing with one oftheir youth about a bus pass.
or been working in a shelterand arguing with ladies about
(22:33):
why they can't bring in soap.
And so she's like, when you,a lot of times we, when,
especially I think it's hardbecause a lot of the needs
assessments we do, which I thinkit's a shame that in this field,
it's like more contractuallya norm to be assessed.
But like in helping fields, Ithink we're doing education,
(22:54):
social work, public health,and a lot of these helping
fields where people reallylatch onto that as an identity.
I am a social worker, I ama teacher, I am a public
health worker, and that'sa noble identity to have on
that most of society acceptsas just naturally good.
And so when you provideinformation, That still
(23:17):
acknowledges all the good thatis attached with that, but
shows room for improvement.
That hurts.
When you're in the grocerystore and you say I'm a social
worker, people are like, Oh mygosh, like you were so strong.
I couldn't do that.
Like when you say I'm ateacher, you are so strong.
I couldn't do that.
And so when you provideinformation that just
challenges, like what youthought about your identity,
that is really hard to sit with.
(23:39):
Mm
In my work, I think wetry to acknowledge that.
We, a lot of times, providereally hard information, but
because of how much you careabout your field, you want it to
be better, or how much you careabout your organization, you
want it to naturally improve.
And, trying to carry thathumanity in with what are
(24:00):
the next steps, which I thinksometimes can easily get lost,
or it's natural to not feelthat on the receiving side.
Yeah.
Yes.
You're almost making mewonder too, the way that
information is shared, I don'tthere's no, I haven't seen
any real standard for how todo that part of the process.
(24:21):
Because I'm almost thinkingabout what it would be like to
really prepare people for takingin the information beyond, hey,
heads up, blah, blah, blah.
It's something veryintentional to at least
ground in the moment andreassurance and acknowledging
of emotions and knowingthat there's space for it.
(24:43):
But the intention to do thatis so you can hear this.
And then, move through it.
Because a lot of, I can'tspeak for everybody.
I'm just speaking from myown personal experience.
I'm just saying, because theseare typically done not terribly
clinically, it feels a lot ofhard information is shared.
(25:06):
It's abrupt and there isn'tvery much support to struggle
through it to do different.
That's an onus on a, like acontractor, service provider.
And then there's a majoronus on leaders who are
going through the work.
There's, I'm hoping peopleare understanding this
expectation of, you can havethe most best intentions.
(25:27):
You can be a wonderful human.
You can, I don't even knowwhat else to say about that.
I think there's a lot of wellintentioned, well meaning
people who want to do work.
And those are also peoplewho experience these things.
And to have realisticexpectations for self
and leadership teams thatyou're not going to like it.
I have not met any groupof people who loved hearing
(25:50):
things weren't going well.
Yes.
Can that be okay?
Can we accept, I'm going tohear something I don't like.
Yeah.
think more cliniciansshould go into research.
Whoever's listening,y'all are needed.
But as you said that, I had aglimpse where I'm like, I don't
(26:11):
mind sharing, me and my partnerwe're in couples therapy.
And I think the way that, Ourtherapist would ask us questions
and be, prepare us emotionallythat I might not hear something
I like from my partner.
And how scary thatfelt initially.
But having someone with clinicalbackground walk us through
that process and it became moreregular and it became easier
(26:32):
to hear and it, and at theend of the day, it felt like
us united against a problem,not us against each other.
That same process needs to bewrapped in to needs assessments.
And if you don't have that, evenbehavioral health background,
but clinical background,that's not always wrapped,
(26:52):
intrinsic to the process.
Yeah.
It's not, I think I don't wantto veer too far from the topic,
but I believe that is a thing inmany DEI related types of work.
It's not seen as clinical yet.
(27:13):
It's not, It's like anadministrative position and
that I'm not saying peoplein administrative positions
that don't have a clinicalbackground aren't doing well.
I'm just saying that there's aclinical aspect to the work that
hasn't quite been embedded ina way that I think is needed.
It's, we are dealing with humansthat are having these responses.
(27:33):
And these humans, these leaders,are responsible for this change.
And there's so much strugglein all of these moments.
So I, I don't want to gettoo far, it would be really
interesting to do that.
And people in organizationsdoing needs assessments.
Let's arrive at this place wherethere's realistic expectations.
(27:53):
There's going to be a part ofthis journey that you're really
excited about in discovery.
There's going to be a partthat's really not fun.
to hear that people don't enjoyeverything about the workplace.
And then there is a chancefor you to be engaged
enough to change it.
So you don't keepthat from happening.
(28:14):
Cause if leaders choose toabandon or leave and just
don't even go to phasethree and not trying to do
anything, you really arechoosing your own self.
You don't like how you feel,so you stop the process
and you actually now knowwhat people are saying.
Or you just heard whatpeople are saying.
And sometimes the defensemechanism is to discount, deny
(28:38):
the validity of the information.
That's a whole other thing.
It's a whole other thing.
It's fascinating to me howpeople can say that's not true.
What happened?
And I'm like, prettysure it happened.
Yes, it is.
Have you had that?
Sounds like you have.
Yeah.
(28:58):
and I really, I appreciate it,my, my organizations, I think.
We are trying to put ina lot of practices that
I think challenge the wayfolks think about research.
Even which big organizationslove to hear things
that are gold standard,like rigorous research.
That means a surveyof 100 plus people who
(29:19):
answered this way, and it'sstatistically significant,
blah, blah, blah, whatever.
And we know that that is aspecific method that was come
up by specific people and that'snot, while it's valid, there are
other ways to bring validity.
When you bring othermethods and it highlights
different experiences, it'sreally easy to discount.
(29:40):
think Folks really do notlike qualitative data.
And for some reason that'sreally easy to discount.
That was anecdotal.
That was oneperson's experience.
Even if you talk to 10 peopleacross 10 different teams that
had different experiences.
I think even just dependingon, what you look like and
how you are presenting data.
(30:00):
As much as organizations, aretrying hard to make research
more accessible and use termsthat people are familiar with.
I know sometimes as like a Blackperson myself and I try to make
sure that everyone's on thesame level and I bring a air of
comfort, to make sure everyoneunderstands what I'm saying,
(30:21):
which I think is a strength.
At the same time, if that'snot something someone wants
to hear, it's really easy topeg that as oh, that wasn't
real, and it seems like Jared'sinterpreting slang, and as
much as people validate thesedifferent methods because it
brings different perspectives,because it's different than
the norms, when it's notwhat folks want to hear, it's
(30:43):
really easy to peg almostthe downfall on those things.
Yes.
I think there's a lot of wayspeople can discount, invalidate
very real things, especiallyif there's stake in it.
If I can avoid doing something,I can see the problems.
(31:07):
I can see them.
I can see them.
But I just, I think that'swhat makes it hard to be in
this particular industry.
There were a coupleof situations when we
first started out LivingUnapologetically, a couple of
situations that went not well.
But went not well becauseof people's responses to
(31:29):
very real information.
And I was feeling like,okay, first of all, I don't
this is activating for me.
I've already been in asituation where people told me
that what I said wasn't real.
This is not cool at all.
And then two is Oh my gosh, amI participating in this problem?
I would remember being a staffmember and someone would come
in and there's a whole hooplaand nothing would happen.
(31:51):
And then I started seeing,are we doing that thing?
Are we coming into organizationstrying to help them?
And then they just disregard it.
So I really started,it wasn't just me.
Me and a couple other people.
We were thinking about howcould we also interview
organizations before westart working with them?
At least have they at leastarrived at certain places?
(32:13):
Have they acknowledged whitesupremacy culture is real and
they all participate in it?
If they're there, okay, we're alittle further along than places
who are still like, well, Idon't know, we could maybe, or
it's not as concrete for them.
So we have this, we haddeveloped something for us
that we knew it would bea healthier relationship.
Doesn't mean it would be easy.
(32:33):
It was just healthier.
But when you said that I juststarted thinking about the
various ways that people willdistance from the information.
And I think it's also helpfulfor us to talk about what
else do we see in leadersor even staff in this place?
It could either be phasetwo where they're struggling
through it and decidingwhether or not to do it.
Or phase three, which ismaybe start to do something
(32:56):
and stop or just choose notto do phase three at all.
And you're like on alot of good points.
In my organization, we have avetting process and that sounds
fancier than it is, but it'sreally not only logistically,
but when we look at a client,are they at a point where we
will be able to do the workthat they're contracting us to?
(33:18):
Especially, I think folkslook at the website, look at
the mission note we're about.
But based off what weheard, does this seem
like it will be a fruitfulrelationship for both of us?
As in, yeah, are you ina space to maybe hear
uncomfortable information?
I think that's a thing wetalk about a lot of times.
Phase two, and especiallythat aftercare, and I think
I've seen a lot of reallydifficult conversations
(33:42):
happen well, is that...
which I think maybepeople really just don't
expect with like needsassessment or research is
like that people aspect.
A lot of time when we presentdata, it's not a one and done.
It is an ongoing dialogue thatmaybe happens over the span of
time of when you saw this, whatwere your initial reactions?
What do you feel likethis data is saying?
(34:03):
What did it, and alsodifferent questions, what did
it feel like it was saying?
What might itactually be saying?
Yes.
Because, you know, you mightsee something about participant
satisfaction and it felt like,Oh, I'm not good at my job.
And that's maybe noteven what it said.
It might've just saidthat people need more
support in X, Y, and Z.
(34:25):
But we have developed like aset of questions to really talk
through that process of that,the end of phase two is one,
remembering your organization'smission and why we started
this in the first place.
I think also an element ofseparating ego from data,
that data is storytelling andit's storytelling about your
organization, about processes,about experiences, and it,
(34:48):
that doesn't necessarily meanit's attached to Jared the case
manager or Jared the researcher.
Remembering that, aftermaybe sitting through a
lot of those hard emotions
and really digging into whatis this data telling us?
It's telling us that employeesneed to feel a greater
(35:09):
sense of belonging or likeparticipants need to feel they
have more resources, then wecan move to phase three of
creating actionable change.
And not only these overarchingfindings, but more I used to
work at a hospital where we hadto do yearly needs assessments,
we call it improvement plans,based off of the data in three
(35:31):
years, what is our improvementplan for this next cycle?
And tangible steps.
And I think that is reallyneeded, because I think a lot
of times change gets lost.
Because of the uncomfortablenessin phase two, but creating like
a tangible play by play of whatthe next phase will be, what
are incremental changes thatcould happen is imperative.
(35:54):
But because of that emotionalness and because it's heart I
don't think we always get there.
I don't even think everybodygets to the place where they
acknowledge it's heart work.
I see that there's a lot ofstrategy and task stuff very
(36:17):
much associated with it withoutthe acknowledgement of the
individual, the individualizedpersonal experiences that are
part of the strategic task work.
And people really want toseparate that, which is,
white supremacy culture thing.
Like people want to, Idon't like these feelings
when I get through itso I can do the tasks.
(36:39):
You actually have tobring that with you.
The only way that's successfulis if this is with you and
this gets worked on too.
So when you said that, I'mlike, I'm just, I'm pretty
sure a lot of people don't dothat because there's so much
effort to just separate itbecause it's really hard and
they want to just do a good job.
(37:00):
And then I'm thinking about,I just think a lot about
staff experiences in allof this stuff and what that
emotional rollercoaster islike, because it is one.
And if they're not on anemotional rollercoaster,
that means because they'vehad enough and they're just
sitting outside till they'reready to go somewhere else.
They're just not on it.
(37:20):
I already know howthat ride goes.
I've been on it.
No thanks.
The rollercoaster is theseexpressions of caring and
we're going to do different.
It seems like, okay, we'regetting on the ride, everybody.
And then, there's this pointwhere everybody can see,
everybody knows what's happeningin an organization when needs
assessments occur, and it's,the staff understand, they
(37:43):
might not be in the rooms, butthey know we've seen it, okay?
They know the informationcomes, and then there's
this waiting period ofwhat's happening from here.
Now that the informationhas been shared, What's
it going to look like?
I know plenty of staff knowthat when information is
shared, there's actuallya lot of uncomfortability.
They don't know what it's goingto be like going into team
(38:03):
meetings and supervisions,because as much as leaders want
to not act different, they gointo meetings and supervisions
just a little extra, sauciness.
And it doesn't have to be, it'snot always the data, but I even
think it's important to knowthat there's stuff happening
in your organization with yourstaff when this is happening.
(38:26):
If you're having a bad daybecause of something personal,
you might even want to just beaware that this is the climate
right now for your team.
If this is sauciness becauseof something else, just
let people know there'ssomething else going on.
It's not that.
And then be aware that peoplego into these things with
sauciness because of the data.
And that is what it is.
And don't act like it isn'ta normal human response.
(38:50):
I
can say as someone thathears things and someone
that like, I care very muchabout hearing stuff, but
still really hard to hear it.
I don't like hearing Ididn't do a good job.
I will hear it because I needto, but it doesn't feel good.
It doesn't feel good.
It doesn't.
And I feel like that's apart of the aftercare too,
it's okay to acknowledge
(39:12):
Yes.
the feelings thatcome after that.
I know, and especiallyas, as simple as you're a
supervisor and you had abad day, maybe we don't need
to have this one on one.
Or we're sitting in likea cultural shift and
someone was very outspoken.
And I know I've been in thatposition in many organizations
where coming back into dayto day work after we had a
focus group, I felt like Ihad a scarlet letter on me.
(39:33):
I thought I had a targeton my back and that's
not a good feeling.
And I would have appreciatedmaybe more of acknowledging
that like any relationship, thisis a relationship, a working
relationship, and we willtake necessary precautions to
get through this versus not.
Uncomfortablefeelings are shared.
(39:54):
I can tell you don't likeme particularly right now,
but we're going back tojust business as usual.
That's not howrelationships work.
Yes.
And again, that's that's whyit's heart work because it's
people and it's relationships.
And you said something in thereand I don't remember your exact
words, but to me, what I washearing is this invitation to
like, if you're having your ownpersonal experience, that's fine
(40:17):
as human, but take care of that.
Don't just bring it with you.
And then whatever thatlooks like, I do this.
Cause I usually saythrow up on people.
It feels like that, but youjust, you don't like it.
And you want people toknow you don't like it.
And it's so harmful, damaging.
It can be passiveaggressive or aggressive.
(40:37):
There's some direct commentsthat I've been made aware of.
There have been situationswhere I've had someone
come in after a situationoccurred, people shared things.
We'll go into a meeting andbe like, well, we're going to
do this since I heard peopledon't like blah, blah, blah.
And it's
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
common.
You would think, Hey,don't do these things,
(40:59):
but what will happen isI'm not in all the spaces.
So I'm not saying that everybodydoes this, but I'm saying y'all
I've been in enough spaces andI've been doing this long enough
to know this be happening.
Leaders will conveneand be on the same page,
but how to do stuff.
And, we're going to do better.
And then those individualleaders go into spaces where
(41:19):
no one, no other leader cansee, or no one was really
going to hold them accountable.
And then they go into spacesand they continue harm.
And then that harm thatcontinues is the very thing
that staff are saying thatthere's no accountability for.
And it's so difficult becausestaff are the ones that already
(41:40):
said, Hey, this is happening.
Okay.
We'll fix it.
Leader go back in.
It's still happening.
Well, then where else am Isupposed to go to say something?
Because this leader justcame up in here and basically
said, Hey, now that yousaid something, I'm going to
have this attitude with you.
And we're going todo it different and
do it begrudgingly.
And that doesn't helpany culture shift at all.
And is indicative oflook, leaders, it'd be
(42:05):
a struggle to do it.
It's okay.
It doesn't feel good.
I think that leadershipteams could do themselves
a justice and besupportive to allow space.
Can we just vent and say,we don't like it, but
let's do this for thepurpose of getting it out.
And then we don'twalk away after that.
We stay here and figureout what do we need to
get from this place?
Because this actually matters.
(42:26):
How can we support each other?
How can we supportstaff, but don't.
Dismiss that normalhuman response.
You can acknowledge it.
Just do something withit and take care of it.
So you can take care ofother people, the people
that you're responsible for.
You know, that justresonates a lot.
I think Yeah, there isa human element that
(42:50):
people just want to dismissand by dismissing it, it
makes the process harder.
I was on a project yesterdaywith a client that was very
hard and it meant a lot that asenior person than me was like,
oh, here's a word doc that wecan vent out our hard feelings
about why this project isdifficult and we can formulate
(43:10):
that in a more professionalway later about our evaluation.
But knowing that's hard, webring that into every meeting,
and that's not going away.
So, like, how canwe work with that?
I just think that shouldbe more normalized in
working in difficult times,hearing hard information.
So much of that, people wantto go unspoken, but by avoiding
(43:32):
it, it is making things worse.
That is really cool.
By the way.
I like that.
I was shocked, I was like, I
felt
Okay.
It's like F this blah, blah.
I felt very affirmed.
I was like, wow, thatis that meant a lot.
(43:54):
Especially like from some, whichI think is half of the aspect
too, that whether we talkedabout mentoring or someone
senior to role model, oh,I've been having a hard time.
I can only imagine whatpeople in a less leadership
position have been feeling.
I'm going to create thisopportunity for people to
vent about how they've beenfeeling about this project.
That meant a lot to me assomeone that was junior to her.
(44:16):
And so I think that is likealso a part of the process.
Yes.
Modeling creates, can createsafety and establish trust.
I think that's super important.
I do.
All right.
I feel like we can goin a lot of directions.
But I think it could be helpfulto just wrap up, like summarize.
I think we've beentalking about some things.
(44:37):
If someone's in phase two,about to go to phase three,
what are recommendations fororganizations, leaders and
organizations to get throughphase two to phase three
and to have it be solid,not abandoned phase three,
as soon as you start a workgroup and you don't like it.
(44:59):
I would say One recommendationis that hard information
doesn't mean you'renot doing a good job.
And so be willing to hearthings that change your
perception of reality.
You, need to go inwith an open mind.
And yeah, so justbe open to that.
That's the biggest thing.
And I also think turningfeedback into actionable change.
For most feedback, there is areal easy way that a statement
(45:22):
of participants don't feela sense of belonging that
can be turned into a, animprovement plan of the next
quarter of by the end of theyear, we will do X, Y, and Z.
That's where thingsget lost, too.
People don't know how to start.
Turning that feedback into bitesize, incremental goals for
(45:44):
the next quarter, I think, iswhere people lose the momentum.
If you go with open heartand look at feedback as your
blueprint of what's next, thatis, my highest recommendations.
Wholeheartedly,
for something, because from aneeds assessment, like you said,
(46:06):
there's so much work to be done.
And the work to be doneis likely over the course
of years and years.
So you're not going to be ableto do all of those things.
So understanding thatstarting point is helpful.
And if you don't know thestarting point, having the type
of support, coaching, mentorshipresources to identify what
makes sense and to do somethingthat builds upon each other.
(46:28):
That's for me, likewhen you said that.
Sometimes people, leadersmight pick the ones that they
really want to do, and thatmight not be the best route to
build things upon each other.
There might be, you might betrying to change something
over there when something priorto that has to shift first.
(46:49):
So think about pacing, but alsothinking about a build upon that
strengthens that other thing youwant to do out in the distance.
That feels so important.
And we were already talkingabout this, but I just
want to name it again.
And it's the building, theinternal, like the personal and
(47:09):
leadership team capacity to feelthings and feel through them to
stay connected to the processand stay connected to each other
and stay connected to staff.
If you're already inphase two, like you'd
start building it now.
If you're someone who's about todo one or do one again, really
think about what your capacitybuilding process is like.
(47:34):
It's not separate from, it'spart of it, it's part of it.
I just believe in that so much.
Wholeheartedly.
And you had said something too.
You were talking aboutrigor, abandoned rigor.
You were sayingsomething about that.
Can you tell, canyou speak on that?
Cause I forgot what it was.
Just to say it frankly,like there is not anything
(47:54):
on this earth whitesupremacy hasn't touched,
and that includes research.
And our idea of whatrigorous research is rooted
in who we've studied, whowe've modeled it after.
One person said that a hundredis statistically significant,
and surveys are built this way.
And there are all these typesof ways that the way that we
consider rigorous research doesnot resonate with everyone.
(48:16):
And so there are otherways to have rigor.
There is rigorous waysto have qualitative data.
I think a lot of these othermethods that people like to
frown upon that highlightpeople and humans way more
than a 10 question survey.
And so I think people need tobe open to abandon our sense of
(48:38):
what rigorous, like what rigoris, what gold standard is to
bring in folks who have not beenable to have their voices heard.
I just want to say thisone thing to what you said.
And it's I can't help,but notice that the people
who desire to move forwardwith quantitative stuff
(49:00):
in surveys are also thepeople that need more than a
quantitative type of response.
There's, and I don't knowanother way to say it, but
it's like a preference toproceed with only opening
a small door for staffto share information and
then, but then also havean individual need as a
(49:21):
leader for more than that.
More space to share, because Ithink an equivalent to offering
staff a survey is, here's yourinformation, deal with it.
And so there's a little bitof that's like incongruent.
It's a bit hypocritical.
A leader's response todata, to me, only reinforces
(49:43):
that this isn't somethingthat's just quantitative.
It's very human,story, person-oriented.
I don't know ifthat makes sense.
It makes sense in my mind.
No, that made a hundredpercent sense to me.
Ah.
You are a leader and youcare, you should want to
(50:03):
hear people's experiences.
And by narrowing that fromthe jump, I think is telling.
And I'm a qualitative person.
I love qual data, but likethey both, quant backs up,
we can have stories and thequant will tell us that, your
organization is 50 percentthis, that backs it up.
But there should be an element,especially with dealing with
needs assessments that aretalking to experiences that,
(50:26):
you should want to, youshould want to hear people's
voices, even if that's hard.
And by narrowing that fromthe jump, I think, is telling
to what you want to hear.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
I think it's a goodplace to wrap up here.
And Jared, thank you somuch for this whole convo.
(50:48):
I really enjoyed it.
And it really got me thinkingabout some things and how we
might do this differently.
Or how we mightwant to frame it.
You've just got me thinking.
So And I'm sure peoplefound this helpful.
If
You can look at MedicinalMelanin on Instagram,
(51:09):
but that's where I'm at.
Awesome.
If you want to get in touch withme, you can visit our website at
livingunapologetically.
com.
On there, you'll see socialmedia handles, email.
You can get in touch withus in any particular way.
If you liked this episode,please share it with
people in your network,have conversations,
(51:31):
like, comment, subscribe.
Oh, I forgot to mention thistoo, on the website, you'll
have access to my book,Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
And I think that's it for now.
And until next time, bye.
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