December 16, 2024 • 46 mins
In this episode of the Living Out Loud Discussion Series, I sit down with Cristina Padilla to chat about the underrepresented Latiné experience in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) work. We explore complex themes like humility, conflict resolution, and the impact of cultural nuances on leadership. We get into why the Latiné voice is often missing in DEI spaces and Cristina provides insights into broader challenges. Join our conversation!
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Cristina Padilla is a Latina leadership scholar, consultant, and leadership coach. Her research agenda encompasses assessing the impact of culturally relevant leadership development programs and coaching for Latinx populations, Latina leader identity development and the creation of a game-based leadership development workshop “El Rio de Dichos.” She has several first-authored, peer reviewed publications in academic journals.
To get in touch with Cristina, you can contact her here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cristinaapadilla/
EPISODE CHAPTERS
00:00 Settling In
02:13 Meet Cristina Padilla
03:12 The Latiné Voice in DEI Work
06:21 Cultural Barriers and Conflict Resolution
08:48 The Impact of Underrepresentation
14:16 Navigating Identity and Authenticity
27:04 Leadership Responsibility and Accountability
38:53 The Complexity of Latino Identity Terms
44:56 Final Thoughts and Contact Information
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
(00:01):
Loud Discussion Series.
Today we are talking aboutwhere is the Latiné experience
in DEI work, and I'll bechatting with Cristina Padilla.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come upin professional settings.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
(00:22):
layers and the nuances in ourinteractions so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, thoughts, views,opinions, the things that are
shared in today's discussion,those are my own and not
as a representative of anyof the agencies that I work
for or am contracted by.
(00:54):
With me I have Cristina Padilla.
Thank you so much forchatting with me today.
Thank you for havingme, Charmaine.
It's great to be here.
I'm really glad thatwe stayed in contact.
We used to work the Academytogether and I don't think we
had too long of an overlap.
However, I do rememberyou being somebody who I
(01:15):
instantly connected with.
We were on a similarwavelength, yeah, a similar
wavelength and had, I justfelt like we were observant
and saw similar things and
you were someone that Icould trust and open up to.
I actually reallyappreciated that about you.
You made me feel, as anew employee, you made me
feel like, Okay, I can,I could be safe here.
(01:38):
There's people I could trust.
And I, I justvalued that so much.
And you areincredibly brilliant.
Always have been,always will be.
But I just remember thinking,like, you didn't say a lot.
But when you didit was so powerful.
Yeah.
You're a powerful person.
Oh, thank you.
(01:59):
Well, you're the formercompliment that you felt, that
I was a safe space is moreimportant to hear than that
I'm brilliant, which I Yeah,
but that's me beingLatina, being humble,
Yeah.
would you mind sharinganything you would like about
yourself as your own intro?
Sure.
So I consider myself aLatina leadership scholar,
(02:23):
consultant, and coach.
And so I have a PhDin leadership studies.
And in that, doctoral program,all of my research and,
my scholarly work was onLatinas and leadership and,
culturally relevant leadershipdevelopment programs, Latina
leader identity development.
I also had the opportunityto create a Latina
leadership board game.
(02:43):
I'm a consultant.
So I work with organizationsfrom time to time on ERG
workshops around Latino identityand Latinos and leadership.
And then I'm a coach.
So I'm ICF, InternationalCoach Federation, trained
and certified coach.
And so I have about ahundred and over 150 hours of
(03:05):
coaching exclusively Latinas.
Just that's my jam,Latinas in leadership.
Yes.
So one of the reasons I'mvery excited about this topic
is because I've been, I'vehad wonderings about this
community's voice in DEIwork, and then to because
you are so like, versed andimmersed in the experience.
(03:29):
I just, I'm reallylooking forward to that.
But I do want to explainwhat I mean a little bit too,
in that I've been finding,just in reflection, in my
conversations and with peopleor in organizations, it's
really interesting that there'snot as much of the Latiné
(03:52):
experience voiced or heardwhen we talk about DEI work.
It's really interesting,and it's I don't know why.
I don't want to name why.
I think it's part ofwhy I'm here today too,
to chat and explore.
And I'm certain that otherpeople see and feel that too.
In the small pockets where Ihave had conversations, there's
(04:14):
a combination of people whodo identify as individuals
in this community who havechosen to not maybe say as
much or say anything or maybeput efforts in another place.
And then other people who arenot part of the community.
They have their own reasons andfocus areas, and the focus tends
(04:35):
to be in very important places.
It's just, I'm wondering,like, what, what is it?
It's probably a lot of things.
I'm not expecting it's gonna beone answer, but my hope would
be to shine a light, open it up.
I am super curious about a lotof things that I don't know.
I only know what peoplehave shared with me.
(04:56):
I could read things,but you know what?
I'm like, down for thecause to learn a lot today.
So I, that's my frame for theconvo, and I'd really love to
know what your thoughts arein general about that, and
maybe what contributes to it,and we'll just go from there.
(05:17):
Sure.
And I have my theoriesand, and my opinions.
And I will say that,while I do speak out of my
experience and my opinion,it is informed, right?
I've done, research.
So I have, like I mentionedbefore, over 150 hours
of coaching Latinas.
I've done extensive interviews.
I have over 75, probablyclose to a hundred hours
(05:38):
of, in also interviewingLatinas and Latinos for,
different research projects.
And I've done a lot of researchfor my dissertation and such.
And so I'm familiar withthe literature, but even
with that, I can't speakfor all Latino voices.
And often when I do, people willsay, that's not my experience.
And, Dr.
David Hayes Batista, he's fromthe Latino Policy Institute.
(06:01):
I think that's whatit's called out of UCLA.
And he said something likethere are 62 million latinos
in the United States.
And there's 62 milliondifferent ways of being Latino.
And so I don't speakfor everybody, but it
is an informed opinion.
And all that to say is thatwhen you ask, like, where is the
Latino voice in the DEI space?
We do seem to have avery, black and white, DEI
(06:24):
space, pun intended, right?
And I think the samecan be said of like,
where's the Asian voice?
Where's, the NativeAmerican voice and all the
marginalized identities?
With Latinos though, I thinkto me, and again, it's my
musings, there's two thingsthat come to mind for me.
It's humility and thenconflict resolution.
In our experienceand relationship with
(06:45):
those two concepts.
We, Again, not all Latinosare humble, but there is
the sense of humility and sonot wanting to brag or not
wanting to cause a commotion.
And in the conflictresolution, we often see, DEI
is a charged space, right?
And it can be in differentprofessional settings.
And so for many Latinos,they might be averse
(07:05):
to speaking up, andto leading the charge.
So those are two musingsthat I'll leave you with.
That makes me think, actually,I don't even want to get
into that part yet, becausemy mind just went somewhere
and I want to table that.
Because it's super important.
So I, one, I heard you say,I don't speak for everybody,
(07:28):
and the quote that youshared from, was it Batista?
I absolutely loved that.
Hey, it's Batista.
I absolutely loved that.
There's 62 milliondifferent experiences,
that really resonates ina lot of different ways.
So thank you for sharing that.
I was thinking about, Iknow you cannot speak for
(07:51):
everybody, but I am wonderingwhat if you are aware of any
of people's thoughts when inthose spaces is because we
can make a lot of assumptions.
And I actually think peopledo make a lot of assumptions
about why people do notengage or maybe don't even
enter into the spaces.
(08:13):
Is there like a desire to,or do you have any idea of
what's happening internally?
Or I just wonder if you canjust shine a little bit more
light on that from what youhave learned from people.
Or is it because peopleshow up, it appears as if
there's a desire to engageor maybe the choice to
engage is the presence.
But there's the voice thatisn't saying something.
(08:37):
So I'm like, what'shappening there?
Not anyone, not that anyonehas to do anything different.
That is their choice.
But I'm like, what is happening?
I don't know.
So again, I think that it couldbe that, first of all, you know,
Latinos are underrepresentedin positions of leadership.
(08:59):
And so it makes it difficultto say, I'm going to, I'm
going to take this cause on.
When it can jeopardize a careertrajectory, when it can be
seen as confrontational, right?
So there's that.
There's also, like I said,the conflict averse portion
of the Latino culture.
have you seen the movie Encanto?
The Disney movie
Encanto by
(09:20):
sure I have.
Okay, so you know the song, WeDon't Talk About Bruno in it?
Bruno, the Encanto is afamily and one of the, the
siblings at a wedding, hecreates a commotion and so
he's banned from the family.
And so there's a song that LinManuel Miranda created called
We Don't Talk About Bruno.
And so they don'taddress whatever happened
(09:41):
with Bruno, he's justshunned from the family.
And so it's part of ournature to, in order to create
this false sense of harmony,to not talk about things.
And I think that mightbe at play there.
I think that there's an aversionto create conflict and it's
for virtuous reasons to getalong, to be seen as someone
(10:02):
who doesn't create waves andcreates ripples, but it, there's
a harmful, it's harmful whenyou don't have productive
ways of managing conflict.
And I think that wealso equate, DEI issues
with conflict at times.
For sure.
You said earlier aboutit being charged.
(10:23):
It can be charged.
And that's because weall have experiences.
And we're in a space.
It often feels like thisfeels really interesting to
be saying this at this pointin time in this country, but
when we are in DEI spaces thatare safe and you're allowed
to have these conversations,then it is highly charged
(10:45):
because we are so different.
We have varying perspectivesabout things and impacts
and historical stuff.
It's, there's a lot thereand it can be charged if it's
not a safe space and it'sperformative and people are
there to just check boxes.
And so it doesn't reallyfeel like there's ever a time
where DEI is like, Oh yeah,it's just another meeting.
(11:07):
Let's plan this task or project.
It's definitely not like that.
I can understand that for sure.
And I think that what's I'maware that my conversation
too can come off of foranybody listening or even
for you, Cristina, it cancome off as what's happening?
Like, why don't you, itcan come off like that.
But it's coming from thisplace of having an awareness of
(11:31):
people's perception of eithersilence or not participating
in the spaces at all.
And the perception is notbased on knowing very much.
And I'm going to just speakfrom, I think something I
hear so much and I see, andit just hurts my heart when
(11:51):
I think about it, especiallywhen I go into organizations,
I can visibly see it.
It's really interestingbecause there is, there are
a lot of black people, blackvoices in the experience
that are like really, drivinga lot of change or driving
conversations and organizations.
And I'm finding that there is afrustration that is experienced
(12:17):
between Black and Brown peoplein this space, because, I mean,
it is different for everyone.
So I can't even say becausethis or that it's not that,
but there is some, there'spoints of contention and
frustration between the twogroups where there isn't maybe
this shared way of seeingthe space or how to use it.
(12:41):
A difference of opinion ofvaluing the conversations
because of what they bring.
And that just adds anotherlayer to the work to be
done in the organization.
It becomes very complex.
And have you seen that?
Because it's sad, but it's real.
(13:02):
Yeah, I think I'lladd another sort of
cultural dimension to it.
The other piece, and again,I'm not speaking for all
Latinos, but this is verywell informed, especially
from children of immigrants,first-generation Latinos.
We come from a very,Hard work ethic.
We see it during the pandemicwhen there's migrant farm
workers working throughpandemics, fires, drought, all
(13:26):
of the conditions were there.
We see it recently inthe Baltimore bridge that
fell and the five Latinoimmigrant construction workers
that fell to their death.
And so we're, to work veryhard, to be grateful for
the work that we have.
And again, it comes froma very virtuous, cultural
(13:47):
characteristic to be humble,to be hardworking and to not
make waves, to, we're toldwork hard, echale ganas and,
so that, that's part of that,that the hard work paired
with the humility, I think,are two characteristics that
I often coach Latinas about.
(14:08):
And they're in contrastwith the individualist
spirit of, the culturehere in the United States.
So there's that.
And in my research with Latinasfor my dissertation, I found
that as Latinas climbed theyie,leadership journey or the the
corporate ladder, when theyfinally had agency of of their
(14:30):
voice, right when they wereable to really speak their mind,
that really is the proxy forleader identity for Latinas.
And so there's this notion ofbeing able to use your voice.
But over time, it requiresfinancial stability.
It requires that expertiseto know that if I get
fired from this job, I caneasily go to another job.
(14:53):
And, and so there is thisdefinitely something around
voice that is really important,that it takes a moment
because of that, scarcity thatwe're often the only Latinos
in the room and having torepresent the entire group
and having to use your voicefor that can be threatening,
(15:15):
and so there's that piece.
That's very helpful to hear.
And you had said somethingearlier and it's connected to
this a piece of what you'retalking about right now is you
said there are, there, it'svirtuous, there's virtue in
that, and you had noted thatthere's impact of that too.
(15:35):
And I'm wondering what haveyou seen that impact be in one,
maybe individuals not using ownvoice and/or not being space for
their voice, their experiences.
What is the impact thatyou've seen or heard?
In terms of the individualexperience or the collective or
(16:01):
Oh, that's interesting.
Well, I said individual,however, I think my, I'm attuned
to how much you're saying youcannot speak for everyone.
So I'm going in and outof, you have very real
information that individualshave shared with you.
(16:22):
So I think I'm leaning into thatbased on what you know for sure.
However, while you cannotspeak for every person in
a community, there are somevery real cultural communal
things that you can share too.
So I don't think it needsto be one or the other.
I think it could be, whathave you seen on any level?
(16:47):
Yeah, I think that there's ageneral sense of frustration
with, Latinas, Latinos about,what they're experiencing and
how they're experiencing andtheir inability, to voice that.
There, there is the missingindividual voice, but as
you mentioned, there's themissing collective voice.
And it's difficult to harnesswhen you're one voice, right?
(17:08):
And when there's no collective.
And so I think that there isfrustration that's not named.
And, what is the best, what'sthe best way to, to harness
that voice, either forindividuals or for a community?
It's not to say thatit's not there, right?
(17:30):
And in San Diego, where we'reat, or where I'm at, there is
a huge Latino community, andthere's a huge Latino presence.
So it's not to say that it'snot there, but we would love
to amplify it even further.
What have you seen as likethe individual impact of
not sharing the experienceor having space for their
(17:51):
experience, internally?
Part of it is the abilityto bring your authentic
self to work, right?
The ability to showup as you truly are.
And we talk about authenticleadership and how authentic
leaders are the most effective.
There's a study back in2016 or 17 by CoQual.
(18:14):
And I quote this a lot, but itsays that 76 percent of Latinos
don't feel like they can bringtheir whole selves to work.
So they hide who they are.
They, dress, speak, doeverything different
in order to fit in.
And they feel that is a way forthem to be more successful and
to blend in with work settings.
(18:36):
Again, it speaks to, A, you'renot yourself, and so when
you're not yourself, you're notyou know, forget your voice.
You're just not able to show upin a way that serves yourself,
your team, the organization.
And so there's thispiece around identity.
And I think that the otherpiece with identity, you're in a
(18:56):
professional setting, you're notyourself, you go home and you're
in a Latino family, and thenyou're also then, especially
for first generation Latinos.
You're then too, you're tooAmerican for your Latino family,
and you're too Latino for theAmerican professional setting.
So there's this, alwaysthis sense of not belonging.
(19:18):
There's always a senseof being othered.
And I think thatweighs heavily, right?
We, we talk about codeswitching and the energy
that it takes, the time thatit takes to recover from
not being yourself is alsoan impact on individuals.
This is really interesting.
(19:38):
You just have me thinking aboutseveral interactions, various
places, different people.
Just points in time wherethe conversation of white
supremacy culture comes up andthe various ways that people,
because everybody contributesto it, so there's that.
And in this work, when youget to the place where people
(20:00):
are like, Okay, everybodycontributes to it, and it's
not this highly charged thing,you can see, everyone has their
own experience with learningit and learning their part.
But when you are just sharingwhat you are sharing, it
does bring a different,like a lens to seeing
(20:21):
people's experiences and thedifficulty with seeing self
there because it's almost likeI'm making assumptions, and this
isn't for any one particularperson, but when you are
talking about, you're alreadynot authentic self, you're not
really accepted in any place,then you're like, hey, did you
know this thing you're doingis reinforcing a harmful thing?
(20:42):
It's, you're not really tryingto do that, but you're also
engaging in something from thisplace of not even being self.
It's probably just verywhat am I supposed to do
with this information?
I just see the responses alittle differently right now.
It's fascinating.
And I'm glad youmentioned white supremacy.
Because I think that'sanother aspect, right?
(21:05):
In what ways do Latinoscollude with white supremacy?
I like to say that we'recolonized three times, right?
The Spanish crown.
The Catholic church and thenthe United States, then,
the neighbor to the North.
And so there is there,we're very colonized and
you don't unlearn it.
(21:25):
It takes generations and itdoes take an intentional shift
in, in a cultural paradigm.
And so I think thatthere, that's another
piece that is probablycontroversial, but very true.
Yeah.
I will just namewhat I'm actually
personally experiencing.
It's, I can usually find aconnection point and when people
(21:47):
are saying something, but I'mlike, I actually don't, I don't
have, I have been colonized too.
Like I get that.
Like I get it but notin this, I don't have
that like association.
So it's I hear youand I don't feel it.
I don't need to feel it.
But I'm like, Oh my goodness.
Okay.
And I'm thinkingabout the work I do.
(22:10):
And it's just helping meconsider what I may want to
try and do differently orhow I would speak to stuff.
Cause part of mywork actually is-
I've been having to findvarious ways to explain various,
they seem simple to me, butthey're complex topics, highly
(22:32):
nuanced, so layered that whenI explain them to people, my
everyday conversations are sojust out here in this complex
land, I have to break itdown to be able to teach it.
And my work has been how doyou break this down So that
people get all the layers inwhat you are helping me do
(22:57):
is just expand the way thatI might do that some more.
Like how would I speak to stuffand what are other ways to
consider various perspectives?
So I, there's nothingthat I can do with that in
this moment other than tosay thank you because you
have me thinking for sure.
So I'm thinking about peoplewho are Latino, people in the
(23:17):
community, and they might behearing or seeing themselves
in what we're talking about.
And you have a lot ofexperience working with
people in this area.
I, are there any, othercommon things they experience.
And I actually want to know ifthere's any maybe like work to
(23:39):
put on their radar, things thatcan be helpful if they are in
a place where what's happeningisn't working for them.
Yeah.
I mean, tons of themes, right?
I work a lot around boundariesand especially with Latinos
and you know, we learned,actually, there's no
boundaries at home, right?
With Latino families, like we'reall in each other's business.
(24:01):
And so some of these traitsshow up in the workplace for us.
And so establishing clearboundaries for yourself.
putting those professionalboundaries around your
work life, around yourresponsibilities, etc.
So I do a lot of workaround boundaries.
I do a lot of work, Imentioned before, with conflict
resolution, how to have thosecourageous conversations, how to
(24:23):
have a productive conversation.
with microaggressions, right?
And I also do a lot ofwork with validating
their lived experiences.
Microaggressions,macroaggressions, discriminate,
it's all very real andsometimes just having your
experiences validated andhow to work through them in
a way that is restorativeto the people, to the person
(24:48):
experiencing them, but alsothat they can navigate the
organization that they're in.
The other piece with Latinos isthat, it's called personalismo.
We love to be agreeable and toget along and to be harmonious.
I was coaching a Latinaleader recently and
(25:08):
she said, relationshipsare very important.
I prefer, instead of using theword personalismo, which refers
to agreeableness, relationshipsare very important.
And so instead of having thatformal friendliness, which
personalismo refers to, islike really leveraging that
ability to connect with peopleand to establish rapport with
people, which is very keyto the warmth of Latinos.
(25:31):
And so leveraging that as astrength and not as a liability.
Respect.
I would say for Latinos,
relationships andrespect are key.
And so making sure thatthe boundaries are there so
that you have relationshipsthat are respectful.
And then the humility piece,aNd the hard work, it's great to
(25:54):
be humble and it's a beautiful.
It's a beautiful trait,but it doesn't necessarily
serve us in the workplace.
And so how to use yourvoice to brand yourself, to
advocate for yourself, workingsmarter, not harder, and not
taking on all the work, butrather advocating for those
leadership positions, et cetera.
(26:15):
And so pushing through someof those cultural aspects
that can be misconstruedas liabilities, but using
them as leverages instead.
That's helpful.
It really is.
And I am thinking aboutthe, there's a layer
of responsibility whenpeople are in leadership.
(26:39):
So we're actually talkingvery much about the like
individualized experience.
But there is like a layer ofaccountability that leaders
have that may not always beleveraged because of some of the
stuff that you're talking about.
Which could then have impactconsequences for people
(27:01):
that are being led, peoplethat they're supervising.
So if there are issues thatneed to be addressed, if there
are cultural things going on,anything under the like DEI
umbrella, I'm wondering, I don'teven know if this is a question.
I'm just wondering, at whatpoint does the responsibility
factor, the power privilegeof having a leadership
(27:24):
role, come into play?
It's just another layer,it's maybe it could be a
point of contention, maybeit could be a catalyst, it
could be a lot of things.
But I'm just realizing,I don't want to miss
that leadership part.
There is responsibilityand accountability
there to take action.
Because there's consequences,especially if you're
(27:46):
supervising people, andthere's that support needed.
I'm particularly thinkingabout people of color that
are being supervised, otherpeople who have parts of their
identities that are historicallytargeted for oppression.
And I don't even know if,how that's come up, does that
come up in your conversations,and is it attached to
(28:10):
accountability, responsibility?
What is that like?
are you referring toLatino leaders who have
that accountability?
Like, yeah.
that?
Yeah.
in general, I'm of the beliefthat leadership, leaders have a
responsibility to engage in thiswork because of what's happening
(28:30):
in organizations with employees,there's a role they play.
And I was realizing in ourconversation that while we're
talking about the Latinoexperience, that we haven't
necessarily talked about theresponsibility, accountability
for engaging in the space.
So I don't even know whatthe question is, but I'm
(28:52):
like, that's a thing.
Have you seen that thing?
Yeah.
I think that for Latinos,community is huge, right?
Relationships and community,whether it's your home
community or your neighborhood.
And so once a Latino is ina position of leadership,
we're underrepresentedacross the board.
(29:15):
And so it is a hugeresponsibility.
And as with any othermarginalized identity, the
accountability is that you'rerepresenting a community.
A huge swath of numbersthat are not there.
And so you have thatrepresented, that responsibility
to be perfect, first andforemost, so that you can
open the doors, right?
The accountability andthe responsibility is
(29:36):
that your being thereis an act of rebellion.
Because we're in spaces whenwe get to leadership roles
that were not traditionallymeant for that were meant
to be excluded out of.
And so that is a hugeresponsibility because you're
representing a population, andit weighs on you to represent
(29:58):
yourself in a way that willopen the doors for others.
And that ability to makewaves, that ability to advocate
has to be used judiciously.
And I think that is thecautionary tale that
we're holding on to, islike, when do we speak up?
When is it right for myselfand or the community?
(30:20):
So it's not an easy it'san easy question, right?
Where's the Latino voice, butwhen we're so underrepresented,
it's difficult.
Yes, I can.
I can grasp.
I can grasp that.
You just have me in a wholeI'm having a whole internal
experience right now.
(30:42):
I just really am.
I'm like, I get that.
I get that because I am oftena Black leader in spaces where
I'm the only Black leader.
I am.
And I just think that maybethe way that I have come to
be in the world, I'm like,if I don't say something, I'm
(31:04):
just like, I have to do that.
And you're making me, there'slots of times I don't for lots
of reasons, for the reasonsthat you're talking about.
So I, there's nothing tosay other than you just
have me in my own lifethinking about stuff.
And when, think about thetropes that exist about
Latinas and Latinos, right?
(31:26):
And we're underrepresented,not just in leadership,
in the media.
And so when Latinasare represented in the
media, what are theimages that come to mind?
Maids, sex pots.
When Latinos are represented,they're gang members,
cartels, or landscapers,.
And so that also plays into it.
(31:48):
If you enter Latina intoChatGPT, it'll come up with
like fiery, passionate, andso that's also the inability
to use the voice in a waythat could be misconstrued as
passionate, as fiery, we, sothere's, it's nuanced, right?
It's nuanced.
Yeah.
Yes, it always is.
(32:10):
It always is.
Okay.
I'm also thinking aboutpeople who are listening and
maybe they're just like, noteven part of this community.
I believe that learningabout other people is part
of our responsibility.
Listening to something likethis obviously is not the only
thing that people should bedoing, but hopefully people
(32:31):
are listening and having
some different information,swirl around for them.
And I'm just thinking about, ifpeople are hearing this, they're
not part of the community,what does that mean for them?
What are some things theyshould be thinking about?
I'm just gonna start withmyself, and I'm gonna wonder if
you have anything to add to it.
(32:51):
Because I do believe thatmodeling is important.
This, just this shortconversation has me thinking
about when I am interactingwith either colleagues, or
even if I'm doing consultationwith people, this awareness
is one, I'm already gonnabe, the assumptions I
(33:12):
make should be reduced.
The lens that I usewhen I am seeing people
is gonna give mea bigger picture.
I feel like the questions thatI would ask might be different.
The space, like theframing of words, and the
invitation to do the work.
(33:34):
It just wouldchange a little bit.
That's just for me.
That's for me.
And I'm wondering what yourthoughts are about that,
and What you might say toother people who you're
in a professional setting,you don't belong to this
community, but what does thisconversation mean for them too?
I honestly, I don't think I've,I've given that much thought.
(33:55):
And I think that is partof the problem, in that
we carry this as a burden,as our own burden, right?
That this is something thatwe have to push through.
That somehow we have to solvethe under representation,
that we have to use our voice,And so just that, right?
(34:15):
That if you're not part of theLatino community, but you're
in a position to amplify theirvoice, to advocate, then use
it and seek to understand.
Be curious about our experience,celebrate who we are.
We're very, as you,you called it nuanced.
We're very complex.
Complex.
(34:38):
Yeah.
So I would just say that isthat suspend judgment, be
curious, amplify and advocate.
I, so I have this thought.
We did talk about this soyou can feel free to be
like, Nope, not doing that.
But I'm only just now realizingwe've been having this whole
conversation but we haven'treally leaned into your personal
(35:00):
experiences of leadership andwhatever that has been for you.
And I'm kind of wonderingwhat yours has been?
Like what have you experienced?
Are you experiencing thesesame things that we're
naming for other people?
What has been the impact on you?
(35:21):
And if you don't likethat question, you
don't have to answer it.
But I am very curious
Yeah, I will definitely answerthat question, Charmaine.
The reason I ended up pursuinga PhD in leadership studies is
obviously because I was in a waymotivated by my own inability
to, to to find a position ofleadership to, you know, that
(35:44):
leadership is always, it's sortof elusive for me in my career.
And so that inspiredme to study it.
As I was interviewing, Latinas,the Latina leaders from my
dissertation, I found myexperiences mirrored and that
over time with experience,with, with confidence, you're
(36:08):
able to use your voice.
And so that I thinkis really important is
that it's not overnight.
Is that there aresystemic barriers.
There are, there are internalcultural barriers that we face.
And so that is why itdoesn't happen overnight.
I would say that
(36:30):
a lot of I, what I study in alot of what I do is inspired
by my own journey, of course.
Yeah, you're, You arehighlighting the very real fact
that our professional selvesare very hard to be separate
from who we actually are.
(36:50):
But when we say that we'renot authentic at work,
I believe like we don'tleave ourselves somewhere.
We suppress ourselves andwhatever we push down in
order for something elseto come out and be present.
And when you were talking,I'm like, okay, so this is
just, this is further proofthat there's a lot in us
(37:15):
that actually is at workand in professional places.
We're just suppressing it.
This is why it's hard toseparate the importance of
this harder individualized,introspective work.
People are always like,not always, It's very
common for people tosay, this isn't the work.
This isn't necessary.
That is not a work thing.
(37:36):
but this is allhappening at work.
We're actually at work doingthis stuff to ourselves.
Yes.
You look like youwant to say something.
Yeah, no, I would sayit's fine tuning it.
Because I'm not, so I'malso very irreverent
and I'm very direct.
And I've paid theconsequences for that.
And so you have tofine tune it, right?
(37:57):
It's like a dial, you don'tjust come out and all of a
sudden you're the voice forall the Latinos and you're.
And so you have to be diplomaticand you have to be effective.
my favorite professorfrom my PhD program, Dr.
Zachary Gabriel Green once said,the effective can get in the way
of you being effective, right?
So you want to harness youremotions and your passion in a
(38:20):
way that renders you effective.
And so, just something tothink about is how to use
that voice with power andwith impact in a way that it
lands and that people can hearit, which is so difficult.
It really is.
That is.
That's probably a wholeother topic itself.
(38:43):
Oh, that's so true.
I have a bunch of thoughts,so I'm just trying to pick
a path and probably findus a way to wrap up here.
I
never talked aboutLatino identity and
the different terms.
Let's talk about it.
I was trying to find a place andI felt like I was forcing it.
But you're right.
We have not.
And I think that would be agood thing to do because people,
(39:08):
I don't know, you're probablygoing to say a bunch of stuff
about what I'm about to say.
So I'm not even going to dothat, but let's talk about it.
If you don't mind,that'd be great.
Yeah.
There's Latina, Latino,Hispanic, Mexican,
American, Chicana,there's, Latineé, Latinx.
And so I just say that I don'treally care what you call us.
I mentioned to you in adifferent conversation that
(39:30):
I feel like we have termfatigue, identification fatigue.
And I don't think that's thehill that I want to die on.
I want to, I'd ratherfocus on, gender wage gap.
Latinas have the largestwage gap in the country,
leadership representation.
But having said that, that'sthe difficulty with Latinos is
that we don't even have a termthat really we can all agree on.
(39:54):
And so each term has evolvedover time and no one even
knows what to call us.
And we don't even knowwhat to call ourselves
for the experience thatLatinos are having in the
United States specifically.
And I have, I often havecolleagues calling me and
they'll say, am I allowedto use the word Latina?
I mightn't.
it's so that even what we'recalled is charged so that you
(40:18):
can imagine the confusion.
And I think it's adistraction, right?
It's a distraction to theconditions that we're facing.
Well, let's just, you know,you have politicians and
all kinds of people talkingabout, should we use Latinx?
Should we use this?
Who cares?
Who cares what we're called?
That's interesting.
Like to your point,you don't care.
(40:42):
Other people do.
Terms mean, we're actuallynot talking about just terms,
but like a lot of these words,they're significant parts of
identity to people, and itjust means different things.
That I have seen.
And there's the wholehistorical aspect around
(41:02):
how terms came to be.
Census stuff.
I'm even thinking likepresent day and maybe you
and I talked about that.
I feel like I've talked aboutthis in a few places but
present day with new termscoming out and us maybe not
always using the lens of whocame up with the term and why.
(41:23):
This is somethingwe signed up for.
I feel like that happensa lot and it's not
just in this category.
I try to stay current, but I'mlike, well, what's current?
I remember when youand I were talking.
I'm like, I feel like it'sLatineé, and you're like,
you said what you just said.
You don't personally care, andit means different things for
(41:45):
different people, and at thispoint, I believe that we are at
a point with many identities,many parts of our identities
where everyone is choosingsomething for themselves.
And so there is no blanketstatement, blanket identity
for anyone, which is why therelationships are so important.
(42:06):
We actually need tounderstand what people
identify as and use that.
That's just, it'snot just one thing.
And, and I, and I should, Iwould be remiss if I didn't say
that it's not, I said, it's notimportant, but it, you know.
the terms Latineé and Latinxare used to address the gendered
(42:27):
nature of the Spanish language.
And so that is important.
And so I think that is,it is important to have
terms, but I think that thisgeneral discussion about
what to call us isn't asimportant as the conditions
under which we are, um thatwe're facing professionally.
(42:47):
Yeah, that, yeah, that'sa, that's helpful.
And I think that many peoplewould agree with you and I think
that many people would have aresponse to what you had said.
But that's because everybody'sdifferent and everybody does
care about different things.
And there, honestly, thatone comment you just made
too, I'm like, there'swork everywhere to be done.
(43:08):
Sometimes it just feelslike there's so much to do.
There really is so much to do.
I just I find myselfthinking that sometimes.
There's nothing to doabout that comment either.
I
just had that realization.
The other piece is that Latinos.
The majority of Latinos,over 50 percent of them,
want to be, addressed bytheir country of origin.
(43:31):
So Mexican American, Mexican,Argentinian, Salvadorian.
And so it is about honoringthe individuality, but
also the collective, right?
And so I think that's themoment that we're facing too,
is are we a collective orare we more individual groups
and that's still a questionand an unanswered question.
(43:54):
We're both andwe're both and yeah.
Oh my gosh, that's a wholeother I don't think I can
go down there down that.
I just want to makea comment about it.
Because
I feel like as a society,we've been able to say,
people of color experience athing, experience things, and
(44:15):
that's, that's understood.
And then, and you get intothe various cultures, then you
find more and more differenceswithin those cultures that
sometimes feels very similar tothis societal thing that we're
experiencing, and sometimesit's, Are we for each other?
Are we against each other?
Are we a collective?
Are we?
It, it gets like thatacross the various cultures.
(44:41):
Some of this is by design,if not all of it, but it's
just, it's a whole thing.
Oh my gosh, Cristina, this wholeconversation, you just had me
trying to just stay focusedon what we're talking about.
My mind.
Okay.
I think it would be helpfulto just ask, is there
anything else to say?
Do you think there'sanything else that would
(45:02):
be helpful to add to thisconversation before we wrap up?
I can't think of anythingthat would be helpful.
And there might not be.
Sometimes there isn't,but I like to ask.
Hurtful, but not helpful.
I'm just kidding.
I don't,
LEt's not do that.
Let's not end it onthat note, at least.
We would need time tocome back up from the
place that we would go.
(45:22):
If people are thinking, hey,I want to get in touch with
Cristina, what is the bestway for them to do that?
My LinkedIn page.
I also have a websitelatinaleadershiplab.
com.
Nice, nice.
All right, if you're listening,please share this episode,
engage in conversationswith people in your network.
(45:44):
I feel like this is definitelyan episode to share with outside
of a professional network.
Please, like, share, subscribe.
If you would like to getin touch with me, you
can visit our website atlivingunapologetically.
com.
We have freebies on there.
You'll have access to my book,Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
(46:05):
And I think that's it.
Thank you so much for listening.
And I hope to see you soon.
So until then, bye.
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
(00:01):
Loud Discussion Series.
Today we are talking aboutwhere is the Latiné experience
in DEI work, and I'll bechatting with Cristina Padilla.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come upin professional settings.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
(00:22):
layers and the nuances in ourinteractions so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, thoughts, views,opinions, the things that are
shared in today's discussion,those are my own and not
as a representative of anyof the agencies that I work
for or am contracted by.
(00:54):
With me I have Cristina Padilla.
Thank you so much forchatting with me today.
Thank you for havingme, Charmaine.
It's great to be here.
I'm really glad thatwe stayed in contact.
We used to work the Academytogether and I don't think we
had too long of an overlap.
However, I do rememberyou being somebody who I
(01:15):
instantly connected with.
We were on a similarwavelength, yeah, a similar
wavelength and had, I justfelt like we were observant
and saw similar things and
you were someone that Icould trust and open up to.
I actually reallyappreciated that about you.
You made me feel, as anew employee, you made me
feel like, Okay, I can,I could be safe here.
(01:38):
There's people I could trust.
And I, I justvalued that so much.
And you areincredibly brilliant.
Always have been,always will be.
But I just remember thinking,like, you didn't say a lot.
But when you didit was so powerful.
Yeah.
You're a powerful person.
Oh, thank you.
(01:59):
Well, you're the formercompliment that you felt, that
I was a safe space is moreimportant to hear than that
I'm brilliant, which I Yeah,
but that's me beingLatina, being humble,
Yeah.
would you mind sharinganything you would like about
yourself as your own intro?
Sure.
So I consider myself aLatina leadership scholar,
(02:23):
consultant, and coach.
And so I have a PhDin leadership studies.
And in that, doctoral program,all of my research and,
my scholarly work was onLatinas and leadership and,
culturally relevant leadershipdevelopment programs, Latina
leader identity development.
I also had the opportunityto create a Latina
leadership board game.
(02:43):
I'm a consultant.
So I work with organizationsfrom time to time on ERG
workshops around Latino identityand Latinos and leadership.
And then I'm a coach.
So I'm ICF, InternationalCoach Federation, trained
and certified coach.
And so I have about ahundred and over 150 hours of
(03:05):
coaching exclusively Latinas.
Just that's my jam,Latinas in leadership.
Yes.
So one of the reasons I'mvery excited about this topic
is because I've been, I'vehad wonderings about this
community's voice in DEIwork, and then to because
you are so like, versed andimmersed in the experience.
(03:29):
I just, I'm reallylooking forward to that.
But I do want to explainwhat I mean a little bit too,
in that I've been finding,just in reflection, in my
conversations and with peopleor in organizations, it's
really interesting that there'snot as much of the Latiné
(03:52):
experience voiced or heardwhen we talk about DEI work.
It's really interesting,and it's I don't know why.
I don't want to name why.
I think it's part ofwhy I'm here today too,
to chat and explore.
And I'm certain that otherpeople see and feel that too.
In the small pockets where Ihave had conversations, there's
(04:14):
a combination of people whodo identify as individuals
in this community who havechosen to not maybe say as
much or say anything or maybeput efforts in another place.
And then other people who arenot part of the community.
They have their own reasons andfocus areas, and the focus tends
(04:35):
to be in very important places.
It's just, I'm wondering,like, what, what is it?
It's probably a lot of things.
I'm not expecting it's gonna beone answer, but my hope would
be to shine a light, open it up.
I am super curious about a lotof things that I don't know.
I only know what peoplehave shared with me.
(04:56):
I could read things,but you know what?
I'm like, down for thecause to learn a lot today.
So I, that's my frame for theconvo, and I'd really love to
know what your thoughts arein general about that, and
maybe what contributes to it,and we'll just go from there.
(05:17):
Sure.
And I have my theoriesand, and my opinions.
And I will say that,while I do speak out of my
experience and my opinion,it is informed, right?
I've done, research.
So I have, like I mentionedbefore, over 150 hours
of coaching Latinas.
I've done extensive interviews.
I have over 75, probablyclose to a hundred hours
(05:38):
of, in also interviewingLatinas and Latinos for,
different research projects.
And I've done a lot of researchfor my dissertation and such.
And so I'm familiar withthe literature, but even
with that, I can't speakfor all Latino voices.
And often when I do, people willsay, that's not my experience.
And, Dr.
David Hayes Batista, he's fromthe Latino Policy Institute.
(06:01):
I think that's whatit's called out of UCLA.
And he said something likethere are 62 million latinos
in the United States.
And there's 62 milliondifferent ways of being Latino.
And so I don't speakfor everybody, but it
is an informed opinion.
And all that to say is thatwhen you ask, like, where is the
Latino voice in the DEI space?
We do seem to have avery, black and white, DEI
(06:24):
space, pun intended, right?
And I think the samecan be said of like,
where's the Asian voice?
Where's, the NativeAmerican voice and all the
marginalized identities?
With Latinos though, I thinkto me, and again, it's my
musings, there's two thingsthat come to mind for me.
It's humility and thenconflict resolution.
In our experienceand relationship with
(06:45):
those two concepts.
We, Again, not all Latinosare humble, but there is
the sense of humility and sonot wanting to brag or not
wanting to cause a commotion.
And in the conflictresolution, we often see, DEI
is a charged space, right?
And it can be in differentprofessional settings.
And so for many Latinos,they might be averse
(07:05):
to speaking up, andto leading the charge.
So those are two musingsthat I'll leave you with.
That makes me think, actually,I don't even want to get
into that part yet, becausemy mind just went somewhere
and I want to table that.
Because it's super important.
So I, one, I heard you say,I don't speak for everybody,
(07:28):
and the quote that youshared from, was it Batista?
I absolutely loved that.
Hey, it's Batista.
I absolutely loved that.
There's 62 milliondifferent experiences,
that really resonates ina lot of different ways.
So thank you for sharing that.
I was thinking about, Iknow you cannot speak for
(07:51):
everybody, but I am wonderingwhat if you are aware of any
of people's thoughts when inthose spaces is because we
can make a lot of assumptions.
And I actually think peopledo make a lot of assumptions
about why people do notengage or maybe don't even
enter into the spaces.
(08:13):
Is there like a desire to,or do you have any idea of
what's happening internally?
Or I just wonder if you canjust shine a little bit more
light on that from what youhave learned from people.
Or is it because peopleshow up, it appears as if
there's a desire to engageor maybe the choice to
engage is the presence.
But there's the voice thatisn't saying something.
(08:37):
So I'm like, what'shappening there?
Not anyone, not that anyonehas to do anything different.
That is their choice.
But I'm like, what is happening?
I don't know.
So again, I think that it couldbe that, first of all, you know,
Latinos are underrepresentedin positions of leadership.
(08:59):
And so it makes it difficultto say, I'm going to, I'm
going to take this cause on.
When it can jeopardize a careertrajectory, when it can be
seen as confrontational, right?
So there's that.
There's also, like I said,the conflict averse portion
of the Latino culture.
have you seen the movie Encanto?
The Disney movie
Encanto by
(09:20):
sure I have.
Okay, so you know the song, WeDon't Talk About Bruno in it?
Bruno, the Encanto is afamily and one of the, the
siblings at a wedding, hecreates a commotion and so
he's banned from the family.
And so there's a song that LinManuel Miranda created called
We Don't Talk About Bruno.
And so they don'taddress whatever happened
(09:41):
with Bruno, he's justshunned from the family.
And so it's part of ournature to, in order to create
this false sense of harmony,to not talk about things.
And I think that mightbe at play there.
I think that there's an aversionto create conflict and it's
for virtuous reasons to getalong, to be seen as someone
(10:02):
who doesn't create waves andcreates ripples, but it, there's
a harmful, it's harmful whenyou don't have productive
ways of managing conflict.
And I think that wealso equate, DEI issues
with conflict at times.
For sure.
You said earlier aboutit being charged.
(10:23):
It can be charged.
And that's because weall have experiences.
And we're in a space.
It often feels like thisfeels really interesting to
be saying this at this pointin time in this country, but
when we are in DEI spaces thatare safe and you're allowed
to have these conversations,then it is highly charged
(10:45):
because we are so different.
We have varying perspectivesabout things and impacts
and historical stuff.
It's, there's a lot thereand it can be charged if it's
not a safe space and it'sperformative and people are
there to just check boxes.
And so it doesn't reallyfeel like there's ever a time
where DEI is like, Oh yeah,it's just another meeting.
(11:07):
Let's plan this task or project.
It's definitely not like that.
I can understand that for sure.
And I think that what's I'maware that my conversation
too can come off of foranybody listening or even
for you, Cristina, it cancome off as what's happening?
Like, why don't you, itcan come off like that.
But it's coming from thisplace of having an awareness of
(11:31):
people's perception of eithersilence or not participating
in the spaces at all.
And the perception is notbased on knowing very much.
And I'm going to just speakfrom, I think something I
hear so much and I see, andit just hurts my heart when
(11:51):
I think about it, especiallywhen I go into organizations,
I can visibly see it.
It's really interestingbecause there is, there are
a lot of black people, blackvoices in the experience
that are like really, drivinga lot of change or driving
conversations and organizations.
And I'm finding that there is afrustration that is experienced
(12:17):
between Black and Brown peoplein this space, because, I mean,
it is different for everyone.
So I can't even say becausethis or that it's not that,
but there is some, there'spoints of contention and
frustration between the twogroups where there isn't maybe
this shared way of seeingthe space or how to use it.
(12:41):
A difference of opinion ofvaluing the conversations
because of what they bring.
And that just adds anotherlayer to the work to be
done in the organization.
It becomes very complex.
And have you seen that?
Because it's sad, but it's real.
(13:02):
Yeah, I think I'lladd another sort of
cultural dimension to it.
The other piece, and again,I'm not speaking for all
Latinos, but this is verywell informed, especially
from children of immigrants,first-generation Latinos.
We come from a very,Hard work ethic.
We see it during the pandemicwhen there's migrant farm
workers working throughpandemics, fires, drought, all
(13:26):
of the conditions were there.
We see it recently inthe Baltimore bridge that
fell and the five Latinoimmigrant construction workers
that fell to their death.
And so we're, to work veryhard, to be grateful for
the work that we have.
And again, it comes froma very virtuous, cultural
(13:47):
characteristic to be humble,to be hardworking and to not
make waves, to, we're toldwork hard, echale ganas and,
so that, that's part of that,that the hard work paired
with the humility, I think,are two characteristics that
I often coach Latinas about.
(14:08):
And they're in contrastwith the individualist
spirit of, the culturehere in the United States.
So there's that.
And in my research with Latinasfor my dissertation, I found
that as Latinas climbed theyie,leadership journey or the the
corporate ladder, when theyfinally had agency of of their
(14:30):
voice, right when they wereable to really speak their mind,
that really is the proxy forleader identity for Latinas.
And so there's this notion ofbeing able to use your voice.
But over time, it requiresfinancial stability.
It requires that expertiseto know that if I get
fired from this job, I caneasily go to another job.
(14:53):
And, and so there is thisdefinitely something around
voice that is really important,that it takes a moment
because of that, scarcity thatwe're often the only Latinos
in the room and having torepresent the entire group
and having to use your voicefor that can be threatening,
(15:15):
and so there's that piece.
That's very helpful to hear.
And you had said somethingearlier and it's connected to
this a piece of what you'retalking about right now is you
said there are, there, it'svirtuous, there's virtue in
that, and you had noted thatthere's impact of that too.
(15:35):
And I'm wondering what haveyou seen that impact be in one,
maybe individuals not using ownvoice and/or not being space for
their voice, their experiences.
What is the impact thatyou've seen or heard?
In terms of the individualexperience or the collective or
(16:01):
Oh, that's interesting.
Well, I said individual,however, I think my, I'm attuned
to how much you're saying youcannot speak for everyone.
So I'm going in and outof, you have very real
information that individualshave shared with you.
(16:22):
So I think I'm leaning into thatbased on what you know for sure.
However, while you cannotspeak for every person in
a community, there are somevery real cultural communal
things that you can share too.
So I don't think it needsto be one or the other.
I think it could be, whathave you seen on any level?
(16:47):
Yeah, I think that there's ageneral sense of frustration
with, Latinas, Latinos about,what they're experiencing and
how they're experiencing andtheir inability, to voice that.
There, there is the missingindividual voice, but as
you mentioned, there's themissing collective voice.
And it's difficult to harnesswhen you're one voice, right?
(17:08):
And when there's no collective.
And so I think that there isfrustration that's not named.
And, what is the best, what'sthe best way to, to harness
that voice, either forindividuals or for a community?
It's not to say thatit's not there, right?
(17:30):
And in San Diego, where we'reat, or where I'm at, there is
a huge Latino community, andthere's a huge Latino presence.
So it's not to say that it'snot there, but we would love
to amplify it even further.
What have you seen as likethe individual impact of
not sharing the experienceor having space for their
(17:51):
experience, internally?
Part of it is the abilityto bring your authentic
self to work, right?
The ability to showup as you truly are.
And we talk about authenticleadership and how authentic
leaders are the most effective.
There's a study back in2016 or 17 by CoQual.
(18:14):
And I quote this a lot, but itsays that 76 percent of Latinos
don't feel like they can bringtheir whole selves to work.
So they hide who they are.
They, dress, speak, doeverything different
in order to fit in.
And they feel that is a way forthem to be more successful and
to blend in with work settings.
(18:36):
Again, it speaks to, A, you'renot yourself, and so when
you're not yourself, you're notyou know, forget your voice.
You're just not able to show upin a way that serves yourself,
your team, the organization.
And so there's thispiece around identity.
And I think that the otherpiece with identity, you're in a
(18:56):
professional setting, you're notyourself, you go home and you're
in a Latino family, and thenyou're also then, especially
for first generation Latinos.
You're then too, you're tooAmerican for your Latino family,
and you're too Latino for theAmerican professional setting.
So there's this, alwaysthis sense of not belonging.
(19:18):
There's always a senseof being othered.
And I think thatweighs heavily, right?
We, we talk about codeswitching and the energy
that it takes, the time thatit takes to recover from
not being yourself is alsoan impact on individuals.
This is really interesting.
(19:38):
You just have me thinking aboutseveral interactions, various
places, different people.
Just points in time wherethe conversation of white
supremacy culture comes up andthe various ways that people,
because everybody contributesto it, so there's that.
And in this work, when youget to the place where people
(20:00):
are like, Okay, everybodycontributes to it, and it's
not this highly charged thing,you can see, everyone has their
own experience with learningit and learning their part.
But when you are just sharingwhat you are sharing, it
does bring a different,like a lens to seeing
(20:21):
people's experiences and thedifficulty with seeing self
there because it's almost likeI'm making assumptions, and this
isn't for any one particularperson, but when you are
talking about, you're alreadynot authentic self, you're not
really accepted in any place,then you're like, hey, did you
know this thing you're doingis reinforcing a harmful thing?
(20:42):
It's, you're not really tryingto do that, but you're also
engaging in something from thisplace of not even being self.
It's probably just verywhat am I supposed to do
with this information?
I just see the responses alittle differently right now.
It's fascinating.
And I'm glad youmentioned white supremacy.
Because I think that'sanother aspect, right?
(21:05):
In what ways do Latinoscollude with white supremacy?
I like to say that we'recolonized three times, right?
The Spanish crown.
The Catholic church and thenthe United States, then,
the neighbor to the North.
And so there is there,we're very colonized and
you don't unlearn it.
(21:25):
It takes generations and itdoes take an intentional shift
in, in a cultural paradigm.
And so I think thatthere, that's another
piece that is probablycontroversial, but very true.
Yeah.
I will just namewhat I'm actually
personally experiencing.
It's, I can usually find aconnection point and when people
(21:47):
are saying something, but I'mlike, I actually don't, I don't
have, I have been colonized too.
Like I get that.
Like I get it but notin this, I don't have
that like association.
So it's I hear youand I don't feel it.
I don't need to feel it.
But I'm like, Oh my goodness.
Okay.
And I'm thinkingabout the work I do.
(22:10):
And it's just helping meconsider what I may want to
try and do differently orhow I would speak to stuff.
Cause part of mywork actually is-
I've been having to findvarious ways to explain various,
they seem simple to me, butthey're complex topics, highly
(22:32):
nuanced, so layered that whenI explain them to people, my
everyday conversations are sojust out here in this complex
land, I have to break itdown to be able to teach it.
And my work has been how doyou break this down So that
people get all the layers inwhat you are helping me do
(22:57):
is just expand the way thatI might do that some more.
Like how would I speak to stuffand what are other ways to
consider various perspectives?
So I, there's nothingthat I can do with that in
this moment other than tosay thank you because you
have me thinking for sure.
So I'm thinking about peoplewho are Latino, people in the
(23:17):
community, and they might behearing or seeing themselves
in what we're talking about.
And you have a lot ofexperience working with
people in this area.
I, are there any, othercommon things they experience.
And I actually want to know ifthere's any maybe like work to
(23:39):
put on their radar, things thatcan be helpful if they are in
a place where what's happeningisn't working for them.
Yeah.
I mean, tons of themes, right?
I work a lot around boundariesand especially with Latinos
and you know, we learned,actually, there's no
boundaries at home, right?
With Latino families, like we'reall in each other's business.
(24:01):
And so some of these traitsshow up in the workplace for us.
And so establishing clearboundaries for yourself.
putting those professionalboundaries around your
work life, around yourresponsibilities, etc.
So I do a lot of workaround boundaries.
I do a lot of work, Imentioned before, with conflict
resolution, how to have thosecourageous conversations, how to
(24:23):
have a productive conversation.
with microaggressions, right?
And I also do a lot ofwork with validating
their lived experiences.
Microaggressions,macroaggressions, discriminate,
it's all very real andsometimes just having your
experiences validated andhow to work through them in
a way that is restorativeto the people, to the person
(24:48):
experiencing them, but alsothat they can navigate the
organization that they're in.
The other piece with Latinos isthat, it's called personalismo.
We love to be agreeable and toget along and to be harmonious.
I was coaching a Latinaleader recently and
(25:08):
she said, relationshipsare very important.
I prefer, instead of using theword personalismo, which refers
to agreeableness, relationshipsare very important.
And so instead of having thatformal friendliness, which
personalismo refers to, islike really leveraging that
ability to connect with peopleand to establish rapport with
people, which is very keyto the warmth of Latinos.
(25:31):
And so leveraging that as astrength and not as a liability.
Respect.
I would say for Latinos,
relationships andrespect are key.
And so making sure thatthe boundaries are there so
that you have relationshipsthat are respectful.
And then the humility piece,aNd the hard work, it's great to
(25:54):
be humble and it's a beautiful.
It's a beautiful trait,but it doesn't necessarily
serve us in the workplace.
And so how to use yourvoice to brand yourself, to
advocate for yourself, workingsmarter, not harder, and not
taking on all the work, butrather advocating for those
leadership positions, et cetera.
(26:15):
And so pushing through someof those cultural aspects
that can be misconstruedas liabilities, but using
them as leverages instead.
That's helpful.
It really is.
And I am thinking aboutthe, there's a layer
of responsibility whenpeople are in leadership.
(26:39):
So we're actually talkingvery much about the like
individualized experience.
But there is like a layer ofaccountability that leaders
have that may not always beleveraged because of some of the
stuff that you're talking about.
Which could then have impactconsequences for people
(27:01):
that are being led, peoplethat they're supervising.
So if there are issues thatneed to be addressed, if there
are cultural things going on,anything under the like DEI
umbrella, I'm wondering, I don'teven know if this is a question.
I'm just wondering, at whatpoint does the responsibility
factor, the power privilegeof having a leadership
(27:24):
role, come into play?
It's just another layer,it's maybe it could be a
point of contention, maybeit could be a catalyst, it
could be a lot of things.
But I'm just realizing,I don't want to miss
that leadership part.
There is responsibilityand accountability
there to take action.
Because there's consequences,especially if you're
(27:46):
supervising people, andthere's that support needed.
I'm particularly thinkingabout people of color that
are being supervised, otherpeople who have parts of their
identities that are historicallytargeted for oppression.
And I don't even know if,how that's come up, does that
come up in your conversations,and is it attached to
(28:10):
accountability, responsibility?
What is that like?
are you referring toLatino leaders who have
that accountability?
Like, yeah.
that?
Yeah.
in general, I'm of the beliefthat leadership, leaders have a
responsibility to engage in thiswork because of what's happening
(28:30):
in organizations with employees,there's a role they play.
And I was realizing in ourconversation that while we're
talking about the Latinoexperience, that we haven't
necessarily talked about theresponsibility, accountability
for engaging in the space.
So I don't even know whatthe question is, but I'm
(28:52):
like, that's a thing.
Have you seen that thing?
Yeah.
I think that for Latinos,community is huge, right?
Relationships and community,whether it's your home
community or your neighborhood.
And so once a Latino is ina position of leadership,
we're underrepresentedacross the board.
(29:15):
And so it is a hugeresponsibility.
And as with any othermarginalized identity, the
accountability is that you'rerepresenting a community.
A huge swath of numbersthat are not there.
And so you have thatrepresented, that responsibility
to be perfect, first andforemost, so that you can
open the doors, right?
The accountability andthe responsibility is
(29:36):
that your being thereis an act of rebellion.
Because we're in spaces whenwe get to leadership roles
that were not traditionallymeant for that were meant
to be excluded out of.
And so that is a hugeresponsibility because you're
representing a population, andit weighs on you to represent
(29:58):
yourself in a way that willopen the doors for others.
And that ability to makewaves, that ability to advocate
has to be used judiciously.
And I think that is thecautionary tale that
we're holding on to, islike, when do we speak up?
When is it right for myselfand or the community?
(30:20):
So it's not an easy it'san easy question, right?
Where's the Latino voice, butwhen we're so underrepresented,
it's difficult.
Yes, I can.
I can grasp.
I can grasp that.
You just have me in a wholeI'm having a whole internal
experience right now.
(30:42):
I just really am.
I'm like, I get that.
I get that because I am oftena Black leader in spaces where
I'm the only Black leader.
I am.
And I just think that maybethe way that I have come to
be in the world, I'm like,if I don't say something, I'm
(31:04):
just like, I have to do that.
And you're making me, there'slots of times I don't for lots
of reasons, for the reasonsthat you're talking about.
So I, there's nothing tosay other than you just
have me in my own lifethinking about stuff.
And when, think about thetropes that exist about
Latinas and Latinos, right?
(31:26):
And we're underrepresented,not just in leadership,
in the media.
And so when Latinasare represented in the
media, what are theimages that come to mind?
Maids, sex pots.
When Latinos are represented,they're gang members,
cartels, or landscapers,.
And so that also plays into it.
(31:48):
If you enter Latina intoChatGPT, it'll come up with
like fiery, passionate, andso that's also the inability
to use the voice in a waythat could be misconstrued as
passionate, as fiery, we, sothere's, it's nuanced, right?
It's nuanced.
Yeah.
Yes, it always is.
(32:10):
It always is.
Okay.
I'm also thinking aboutpeople who are listening and
maybe they're just like, noteven part of this community.
I believe that learningabout other people is part
of our responsibility.
Listening to something likethis obviously is not the only
thing that people should bedoing, but hopefully people
(32:31):
are listening and having
some different information,swirl around for them.
And I'm just thinking about, ifpeople are hearing this, they're
not part of the community,what does that mean for them?
What are some things theyshould be thinking about?
I'm just gonna start withmyself, and I'm gonna wonder if
you have anything to add to it.
(32:51):
Because I do believe thatmodeling is important.
This, just this shortconversation has me thinking
about when I am interactingwith either colleagues, or
even if I'm doing consultationwith people, this awareness
is one, I'm already gonnabe, the assumptions I
(33:12):
make should be reduced.
The lens that I usewhen I am seeing people
is gonna give mea bigger picture.
I feel like the questions thatI would ask might be different.
The space, like theframing of words, and the
invitation to do the work.
(33:34):
It just wouldchange a little bit.
That's just for me.
That's for me.
And I'm wondering what yourthoughts are about that,
and What you might say toother people who you're
in a professional setting,you don't belong to this
community, but what does thisconversation mean for them too?
I honestly, I don't think I've,I've given that much thought.
(33:55):
And I think that is partof the problem, in that
we carry this as a burden,as our own burden, right?
That this is something thatwe have to push through.
That somehow we have to solvethe under representation,
that we have to use our voice,And so just that, right?
(34:15):
That if you're not part of theLatino community, but you're
in a position to amplify theirvoice, to advocate, then use
it and seek to understand.
Be curious about our experience,celebrate who we are.
We're very, as you,you called it nuanced.
We're very complex.
Complex.
(34:38):
Yeah.
So I would just say that isthat suspend judgment, be
curious, amplify and advocate.
I, so I have this thought.
We did talk about this soyou can feel free to be
like, Nope, not doing that.
But I'm only just now realizingwe've been having this whole
conversation but we haven'treally leaned into your personal
(35:00):
experiences of leadership andwhatever that has been for you.
And I'm kind of wonderingwhat yours has been?
Like what have you experienced?
Are you experiencing thesesame things that we're
naming for other people?
What has been the impact on you?
(35:21):
And if you don't likethat question, you
don't have to answer it.
But I am very curious
Yeah, I will definitely answerthat question, Charmaine.
The reason I ended up pursuinga PhD in leadership studies is
obviously because I was in a waymotivated by my own inability
to, to to find a position ofleadership to, you know, that
(35:44):
leadership is always, it's sortof elusive for me in my career.
And so that inspiredme to study it.
As I was interviewing, Latinas,the Latina leaders from my
dissertation, I found myexperiences mirrored and that
over time with experience,with, with confidence, you're
(36:08):
able to use your voice.
And so that I thinkis really important is
that it's not overnight.
Is that there aresystemic barriers.
There are, there are internalcultural barriers that we face.
And so that is why itdoesn't happen overnight.
I would say that
(36:30):
a lot of I, what I study in alot of what I do is inspired
by my own journey, of course.
Yeah, you're, You arehighlighting the very real fact
that our professional selvesare very hard to be separate
from who we actually are.
(36:50):
But when we say that we'renot authentic at work,
I believe like we don'tleave ourselves somewhere.
We suppress ourselves andwhatever we push down in
order for something elseto come out and be present.
And when you were talking,I'm like, okay, so this is
just, this is further proofthat there's a lot in us
(37:15):
that actually is at workand in professional places.
We're just suppressing it.
This is why it's hard toseparate the importance of
this harder individualized,introspective work.
People are always like,not always, It's very
common for people tosay, this isn't the work.
This isn't necessary.
That is not a work thing.
(37:36):
but this is allhappening at work.
We're actually at work doingthis stuff to ourselves.
Yes.
You look like youwant to say something.
Yeah, no, I would sayit's fine tuning it.
Because I'm not, so I'malso very irreverent
and I'm very direct.
And I've paid theconsequences for that.
And so you have tofine tune it, right?
(37:57):
It's like a dial, you don'tjust come out and all of a
sudden you're the voice forall the Latinos and you're.
And so you have to be diplomaticand you have to be effective.
my favorite professorfrom my PhD program, Dr.
Zachary Gabriel Green once said,the effective can get in the way
of you being effective, right?
So you want to harness youremotions and your passion in a
(38:20):
way that renders you effective.
And so, just something tothink about is how to use
that voice with power andwith impact in a way that it
lands and that people can hearit, which is so difficult.
It really is.
That is.
That's probably a wholeother topic itself.
(38:43):
Oh, that's so true.
I have a bunch of thoughts,so I'm just trying to pick
a path and probably findus a way to wrap up here.
I
never talked aboutLatino identity and
the different terms.
Let's talk about it.
I was trying to find a place andI felt like I was forcing it.
But you're right.
We have not.
And I think that would be agood thing to do because people,
(39:08):
I don't know, you're probablygoing to say a bunch of stuff
about what I'm about to say.
So I'm not even going to dothat, but let's talk about it.
If you don't mind,that'd be great.
Yeah.
There's Latina, Latino,Hispanic, Mexican,
American, Chicana,there's, Latineé, Latinx.
And so I just say that I don'treally care what you call us.
I mentioned to you in adifferent conversation that
(39:30):
I feel like we have termfatigue, identification fatigue.
And I don't think that's thehill that I want to die on.
I want to, I'd ratherfocus on, gender wage gap.
Latinas have the largestwage gap in the country,
leadership representation.
But having said that, that'sthe difficulty with Latinos is
that we don't even have a termthat really we can all agree on.
(39:54):
And so each term has evolvedover time and no one even
knows what to call us.
And we don't even knowwhat to call ourselves
for the experience thatLatinos are having in the
United States specifically.
And I have, I often havecolleagues calling me and
they'll say, am I allowedto use the word Latina?
I mightn't.
it's so that even what we'recalled is charged so that you
(40:18):
can imagine the confusion.
And I think it's adistraction, right?
It's a distraction to theconditions that we're facing.
Well, let's just, you know,you have politicians and
all kinds of people talkingabout, should we use Latinx?
Should we use this?
Who cares?
Who cares what we're called?
That's interesting.
Like to your point,you don't care.
(40:42):
Other people do.
Terms mean, we're actuallynot talking about just terms,
but like a lot of these words,they're significant parts of
identity to people, and itjust means different things.
That I have seen.
And there's the wholehistorical aspect around
(41:02):
how terms came to be.
Census stuff.
I'm even thinking likepresent day and maybe you
and I talked about that.
I feel like I've talked aboutthis in a few places but
present day with new termscoming out and us maybe not
always using the lens of whocame up with the term and why.
(41:23):
This is somethingwe signed up for.
I feel like that happensa lot and it's not
just in this category.
I try to stay current, but I'mlike, well, what's current?
I remember when youand I were talking.
I'm like, I feel like it'sLatineé, and you're like,
you said what you just said.
You don't personally care, andit means different things for
(41:45):
different people, and at thispoint, I believe that we are at
a point with many identities,many parts of our identities
where everyone is choosingsomething for themselves.
And so there is no blanketstatement, blanket identity
for anyone, which is why therelationships are so important.
(42:06):
We actually need tounderstand what people
identify as and use that.
That's just, it'snot just one thing.
And, and I, and I should, Iwould be remiss if I didn't say
that it's not, I said, it's notimportant, but it, you know.
the terms Latineé and Latinxare used to address the gendered
(42:27):
nature of the Spanish language.
And so that is important.
And so I think that is,it is important to have
terms, but I think that thisgeneral discussion about
what to call us isn't asimportant as the conditions
under which we are, um thatwe're facing professionally.
(42:47):
Yeah, that, yeah, that'sa, that's helpful.
And I think that many peoplewould agree with you and I think
that many people would have aresponse to what you had said.
But that's because everybody'sdifferent and everybody does
care about different things.
And there, honestly, thatone comment you just made
too, I'm like, there'swork everywhere to be done.
(43:08):
Sometimes it just feelslike there's so much to do.
There really is so much to do.
I just I find myselfthinking that sometimes.
There's nothing to doabout that comment either.
I
just had that realization.
The other piece is that Latinos.
The majority of Latinos,over 50 percent of them,
want to be, addressed bytheir country of origin.
(43:31):
So Mexican American, Mexican,Argentinian, Salvadorian.
And so it is about honoringthe individuality, but
also the collective, right?
And so I think that's themoment that we're facing too,
is are we a collective orare we more individual groups
and that's still a questionand an unanswered question.
(43:54):
We're both andwe're both and yeah.
Oh my gosh, that's a wholeother I don't think I can
go down there down that.
I just want to makea comment about it.
Because
I feel like as a society,we've been able to say,
people of color experience athing, experience things, and
(44:15):
that's, that's understood.
And then, and you get intothe various cultures, then you
find more and more differenceswithin those cultures that
sometimes feels very similar tothis societal thing that we're
experiencing, and sometimesit's, Are we for each other?
Are we against each other?
Are we a collective?
Are we?
It, it gets like thatacross the various cultures.
(44:41):
Some of this is by design,if not all of it, but it's
just, it's a whole thing.
Oh my gosh, Cristina, this wholeconversation, you just had me
trying to just stay focusedon what we're talking about.
My mind.
Okay.
I think it would be helpfulto just ask, is there
anything else to say?
Do you think there'sanything else that would
(45:02):
be helpful to add to thisconversation before we wrap up?
I can't think of anythingthat would be helpful.
And there might not be.
Sometimes there isn't,but I like to ask.
Hurtful, but not helpful.
I'm just kidding.
I don't,
LEt's not do that.
Let's not end it onthat note, at least.
We would need time tocome back up from the
place that we would go.
(45:22):
If people are thinking, hey,I want to get in touch with
Cristina, what is the bestway for them to do that?
My LinkedIn page.
I also have a websitelatinaleadershiplab.
com.
Nice, nice.
All right, if you're listening,please share this episode,
engage in conversationswith people in your network.
(45:44):
I feel like this is definitelyan episode to share with outside
of a professional network.
Please, like, share, subscribe.
If you would like to getin touch with me, you
can visit our website atlivingunapologetically.
com.
We have freebies on there.
You'll have access to my book,Bias-Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
(46:05):
And I think that's it.
Thank you so much for listening.
And I hope to see you soon.
So until then, bye.
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