February 20, 2024 • 61 mins
In this episode of the Living Out Loud Discussion Series, I got to sit with Dr. Wendy Ashley for a convo about the challenges and common experiences of white executives who are engaging in DEI work. We touch on the nuances of interactions within professional settings- Dr. Ashley brilliantly uses an analogy of leaders as quarterbacks, emphasizing that they can't avoid their roles and need to acknowledge they hold in order to effectively share it.
We also detail the importance of self regulation, understanding your responses and behaviors, the importance of accountability partners, and the value of grounding yourself in the mission and values of the work. The overarching theme: the need for leaders, regardless of their intentions, to be aware of their impact and to strive to lead responsibly.
Our Guest
Wendy Ashley, Psy.D., LCSW is a Professor and the Department Chair of the California State University at Northridge’s Master of Social Work (MSW) program. Dr. Ashley holds a doctorate in Clinical Psychology (Psy.D.), a MSW, is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and has over twenty-five years of social work practice experience. She maintains certification in Diversity and Inclusion Practices (from Cornell University) and in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (from EMDR International Association). Dr. Ashley is the author of multiple publications, speaks at conferences nationwide and internationally, maintains a private practice and provides training for multiple community agencies. She is passionate about promoting social justice, and infuses an intersectionality lens in her teaching, practice, training and research.
Share this episode with people so they can learn with you- use it as a discussion tool with groups, teams, supervisors, and your network. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and follow us across our platforms!
To get in touch with Wendy Ashley, you can contact her here:
- Website: DrWendyAshley.com
-
IG: @DrWendyAshley
Episode Chapters
00:00 Setting the Stage 01:12 Guest Intro Dr. Wendy Ashley 02:07 Clinical Aspect of DEI 06:57 'Shape Shifting' in Multiracial Experiences 13:07 Challenges of Leadership and Power Dynamics 27:34 Acknowledging and Unpacking Whiteness 33:50 Dangers of Cancel Culture and Performative Activism 34:56 Multiple Truths 35:47 Self-Regulation and Understanding Your Actions 36:44 The Nervous System in Our Reactions 39:11 Self-Regulation and Understanding Your Defaults 41:29 Accountability in Leadership 44:07 Understanding the Impact of Your Actions 45:43 Role of the Leader in Navigating Difficult Conversations 52:42 Accountability Partners in Leadership 55:47 Grounding Yourself in Your Mission and Values 56:32 Conclusion: Using Your Power Responsibly
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Everybody cannotbe the quarterback.
(00:02):
said
No.
No.
We can do a play where I passit to you and you then go, but I
am still the quarterback, right?
Like we can't allbe the quarterback.
And that is not DEI.
Hey, we are in anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
And today we are talkingabout white executives
leading from a distance.
(00:23):
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, Relational DEI expert.
And if you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come up in ourinteractions with each other
in professional settings orin areas where we feel like
we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the layers
and the nuances in all of ourinteractions so that we can
(00:44):
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts, views,opinions that are shared in
today's discussion, they are myown and not as a representative
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
(01:12):
Okay, thank you so muchfor being here, Dr.
Wendy Ashley.
It is an absolute pleasure.
I already know that thisis going to be quite an
engaging and I imaginehilarious discussion.
I met you very briefly,honestly, at Dominguez Hills,
you were the chair there, youdid some really cool work.
And while it was a shortinteraction between us, I
(01:35):
felt like you have an energy,you have a lot of knowledge,
the way that you connectwith people was really cool.
And then in our network, Iheard a lot about you and
the work that you were doing.
So when we connected totalk about this episode,
then I really was thinkingto myself- okay, this is
a person that I can learnfrom, that I want to talk to.
(01:57):
So thank you for beinghere in this space.
I really appreciate you.
Aw, thank you so much.
I'm super excited to be here.
Yes.
Now, would you mind just sharingany parts of who you are?
Just, I don't know, expertise,anything you want to share.
Ha!
that, that could be long,but, but I'll be brief.
I am a professor.
(02:19):
I'm also the departmentchair now at CSUN.
I've been at CSUN, I took alittle leave when I was at
Dominguez for a year, but I'vebeen at CSUN for 16 years.
I also have a private practice,which, the focus of which is
anti-racist, trauma-informed,intersectionally-
focused, therapy.
and the other sort of superpowerthat I have is that I do
(02:40):
justice, equity, anti racist,diversity, and inclusion
organizational trainings.
So I do that sort of ona multi layered approach.
I do that with firststaff trainings.
I do that forleadership training.
and I do that fororganizational climate change.
And that is something that partis relatively new on my, on my
list of things, but I've beena social worker for 27 years?
(03:03):
I'm old school.
I've been in thefield for a minute.
You definitely have beenin all of the places and
just when you do share.
When you share your experience,you can tell that you've
been in a lot of differentareas because your lens
extends to different places.
So to be in like higher ed,to be in leadership spaces,
(03:25):
to be in the clinical space,that clinical space is so
helpful in those areas.
I think more helpful than hasbeen publicly acknowledged.
Yet, to me, I feel like,DEI work, this type of
justice-oriented, anti-racistwork hasn't quite made the
(03:46):
space for the importanceof the clinical aspects.
I can hear in wheneveryou're talking that
piece shine through.
I love you so much right now.
So it's, it's funnybecause academically
there has never been awelcome mat for me, right?
Like I am in academia,I'm a unicorn.
Most people who come to academiacome through, they directly
(04:08):
go to school and then theygo, then they start teaching.
and so their teaching doesn'tinclude practice experience.
And in social work, that's anot, that's a nightmare because
a big part of what we do hasto do with practice experience.
But, but so you're right.
The clinical piece,especially in 2023, right?
When we're talking aboutDEI stuff and a big part of
(04:30):
how you teach that has todo with how you model it.
And so what is interestingabout this conversation and in
my experience as well, is thatin my role as department chairs
and in my role in DEI, what Ihave realized is that my ability
to conceptualize what's goingon, my ability to assess and
identify what it is, often hasto do with things that are less
(04:52):
tangible, like psychologicalsafety or trauma reactivity.
And those are things that Iwould never know if I took
a traditional leadershipperspective, or I took a route
that was just DEI focused,or I was strictly academic.
So you're right, the clinicalmakes me a different kind
of leader, and a differentkind of practitioner, and a
different kind of social worker.
And I think I appreciate yousaying that, because there
(05:14):
isn't a lot of acknowledgementfor that particular skill set.
Yes, yes.
And I say it becauseI am a unicorn, too.
I've been referred to as that.
I don't know how I felt about itat first, but it's a good thing.
It's a good thing.
I feel like the clinicalaspect of what I do is on
top of everything else.
(05:35):
It is what I lead with and theways that we can see what's
happening, lean into, supportpeople through stuff is heavily
clinical and when approached
from the head place all thetime, it's just really hard
to help people through things.
It really
is.
I will say this though.
It's taken me, I'm a little,little older and it's taken me
(05:58):
the last couple decades to learnhow to identify my role before
I start using the skills, right?
So if I'm, if I'm, teaching,or if I'm, in my role as a
professor or an administrator,I'm a social work educator,
and so that means that theclinical informs my decision
making, but it can't guide,like it can't necessarily
(06:19):
guide my intervention.
You know what I'm saying?
Or if I am doing a DEIorganizational training, the
clinical informs how I respond,but it doesn't guide it.
I can't do clinicalinterventions when I'm
not being a clinician.
And so that has takenme a really long time to
learn my lane about that.
Because I was burning myselfout, which I think is a
hugely important element.
(06:40):
We could do a wholepodcast on that.
Because burnout is a big,is a big piece that we
have to be cautious about.
Yes, that could be its ownepisode and maybe it will, cause
I already have my own thoughts.
I'm like, and thenthis, but I'll stop.
Like it's fine.
We said a lot on it.
That's okay.
I do though, think, andwe didn't talk about this.
So you tell me if, if youdon't even want to do this.
(07:02):
One of the things that youand I talked about as well
that impacts and informshow we show up, especially
in this leadership spaceis the fact that we are
white and black and how
I don't know how we grew upthis way, but also maybe our
understanding of what peopleare experiencing and speaking
(07:23):
to in a particular way, theprivilege that comes with having
this skin tone and being ableto get further into places.
I wonder if there's any room forthat as context setting for how
we're seeing this conversation.
A hundred percent.
I think that to be somebodywho has biracial heritage
(07:43):
inherently puts you in aliminal position, right?
And liminal positions in and ofthemselves are uncomfortable.
They're between.
So we don't have amonoracial experience.
We don't know what it'slike to just be White.
We don't know what it'slike to just be Black.
And I think thatthat's a benefit.
There is something about thenuances of understanding,
just all of the, theuncomfortable, gray, liminal
(08:06):
areas that, that I think this,this is what DEI is about.
This is how we unpackand make sense of it.
I, Listen, one of the thingsI know as a clinician is
that when people are afraidand they're uncomfortable,
they start polarizing, right?
Everything is all or nothing.
It's, it's, it's yes, no,it's black, white, it's
all the things and, andthat's a common reaction.
But, but to be someone whounderstands from a lived
(08:29):
experience what it's like toalways be in a liminal space,
that makes it easier for me tobe able to step in and unpack.
I speak, am Icompletely anything?
No, but, but do I code switch?
Absolutely.
Can, can I, can I hangout with a group of Black
people and feel comfortable?
Absolutely.
Can I hang out with abunch of white Women
(08:49):
and feel comfortable?
For the most part.
But, but I have that capacityto shape shift in a way that
isn't just code switching,it's shape shifting, and I
Hmm.
Ooh.
Oh.
All right, True Blood.
All right,
Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness, I havenot heard that, but I
(09:09):
felt it when you said it.
I felt it.
Wow.
Okay, I don't even know ifI can unpack that right now.
I
Nah, you can't have it.
It's deep though, right?
I spent hours on this.
Yes, yes, yes.
Okay.
All right, another episode.
That will be.
(09:30):
I can just see myselfliterally going into places
just doing what you said.
And then
also,
You felt it, didn't
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,yes, yes, yes, yes.
It's to me, what youjust described is
this thing that I do.
And the only thing that Ido that is that I'm aware of
that's attached to that isI have to pay so much to my.
(09:54):
internalized oppression,the things that I do to be
in spaces, to help people,to grow my, I just have
to pay attention to it.
So when you said shapeshift, it was almost like
my shape was shifting.
And then my, what I am awareof is this internalized
oppression that I haveto, what are you doing?
Why are you doing it?
(10:15):
And it's a lot to do ina moment, especially when
you're serving other people.
Cause you have to be awareof self and then others.
So you just gave meanother thing to sit with.
And consider, and I willdo that soon, or we will
do this in another episode.
So we don't have to tablenow two things to come
back on and talk about.
Fair.
(10:35):
I will say this aboutthe shapeshift too.
I think that, and then wecan be done, I promise.
The thing about theshapeshift is that when you
are shifting shapes, right?
You got to be thoughtful about,are you, is your accommodation
to the other or is youraccommodation to self, right?
So if I were to shapeshiftinto a wolf, Am I, am I about
(10:59):
what it means to be a wolf?
And obviously this is anexaggeration or am I, or
am I, but not really, oram I, or am I accommodating
to what, what my prey is?
Am I trying to kill you?
You see what I'm saying?
So like, how am I acclimating?
Am I acclimating based onwhat's externally motivating?
Cause that's a big deal.
Or is it about, and I thinkit takes a really long time
(11:20):
for people of multiracialheritage to be able to learn
how to ground that accordingto who I am, and not what's
externally motivated, whichis, again, in and of itself,
a whole conversation.
Yes.
Yes.
And, and just for my lens,even for setting up in this
conversation, when I trainor coach people, I openly
acknowledge the way that I wasraised and, I don't think that
(11:44):
the people who raised me wouldagree with this, so just keep
this in mind, but it is myexperience that I was raised to
be racist, and homophobic, andageist, and many other isms.
I really was.
And I had to, I got to apoint, and this happened in
the Dominguez Hills program.
(12:06):
Because of CRT, I got to thepoint where I had to look
at things and unpack them.
And there's a lot aboutthe white experience in
having to address selfthat I had to actually do.
I had to do that.
I was doing thingsto other people.
I was doing things to myself.
So I actually understand thework that I'm asking people to
do because I had to do it and itdoesn't feel good, but I get it.
(12:30):
So at times.
I speak to it from, Ireally, really get that.
I know it so well.
Here's what you're likelyexperiencing and here's
some ways through it insteadof you need to do it.
So I will, in the nameof helping people, if I
decide and have the timeand energy, enter into that
space of, I'm that too.
(12:52):
I've done that too.
I still have to pay attention.
I still do.
Yeah,
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, let's, I think thatthat was still on topic.
I think it was a nice intro.
it's a lovely segue.
Okay, so when we say whiteexecutives are leading
from a distance, whatare we actually saying?
(13:13):
Yeah.
is the quarterback.
And, and I said this to youbefore, but I, the way I define
this is that I call this typeof leadership quarterbacks who
don't want to be quarterbacks.
I mean that because I don'tknow if how many of people
who are seeing this are, watchfootball or understand football.
(13:36):
But, but football, thequarterback is the, is
the, is the star, right?
The quarterback is theleader of the offense.
The quarterback calls plays.
The quarterback, handlesthe ball more than anybody.
And the quarterback isreally responsible for
forward movement, whichleads towards scoring.
Okay.
That's what thequarterback does.
(13:56):
And so, when we're talkingabout white leadership that,
or folks that who, that don'twant a quarterback, this
is, or distance related,this is somebody who's in
the game, on the field, andrefusing to touch the ball.
Okay?
And, and, and, we wantto contextualize, right?
Because these are not people whoare, who are uninterested, or
(14:18):
who are, who are not committed.
These, these are the folks thatRobin DiAngelo talked about
in her book, White Fragility.
These are folks who arelibera and conscious and
well intentioned and whocare about justice, equity,
diversity, inclusion.
But, but these are people whowhen they get uncomfortable
and when they get activated,they disappear and disconnect.
(14:40):
And so everyone's like,where's the quarterback?
What, what are we doing?
And there's a, there's afeeling of, for a lot of folks
who are, who are on the fieldas well, they feel betrayed.
They feel, abandoned.
They feel, alone.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
When you shared thatanalogy, it cracked me up.
It was so funny.
(15:03):
It's a really coolway to think about it.
And it's a very realthing I see too.
And I just frame it asthere's just, there's
this avoidance of power.
Yes.
Just really, for somereason, I get it.
Power could not beused for good things.
It's really not in a lotof places and that's its
own, series, if you will.
But power doesn't have tobe this thing that people
(15:25):
are afraid of or don'tneed to be associated with.
People could use powerresponsibly, but right now
there's just this avoidance.
I want to share power.
Sharing power is great, but,but also you can't disregard
the power that you hold too.
So there's also this well,with the power I have, I want
(15:45):
to share it to other people.
So all of us are quarterbacks.
And I think that there, I don'tknow all the football analogies,
so I'm not going to even.
Try it?
be the quarterback.
Everybody cannotbe the quarterback.
said
no,
no.
We can do a play where I passit to you and you then go, but I
(16:06):
am still the quarterback, right?
Like we can't allbe the quarterback.
And that is not DEI.
That is not DEI to make, let'sall play, let's all, that's like
saying, let me see, don't letme get started because I'm gonna
start talking about everybodygetting trophies and everybody
don't need to get a trophy.
I, I, let me not go into that.
But, but everybody canbe the quarterback.
But, but to your point,a piece of it is avoiding
(16:26):
power, but I actually thinkof it as immobilization.
These are folks that when theyget uncomfortable, they, there,
there is avoidance, right?
There is conflict avoidance.
There is, thereis immobilization.
And typically theimmobilization, this often
happens around decision making.
So I need to make a decision.
Something has happened.
I feel reactive.
(16:47):
Other people feel reactive.
I don't want to upset them.
I don't want to saythe wrong thing.
I don't want to make it worse.
And so that, that,feeling that fear, that
discomfort, causes a level ofimmobilization and avoidance.
And so what peopledo is they retreat.
Mhm.
And, and it often lookslike them letting other
(17:09):
people make decisions.
It looks like, like, whyaren't they responding?
What are they doing?
And, and the, especially thepeople of color around are
like, what are you doing?
What are you doing?
Why, where are you going?
We need you right now.
And, and it's, it's, it's,it's a very clear absence.
(17:29):
Yes, yes.
I, I know we're talking,we're talking as behaviorally
specific, I think, as we can,but I have found that being
specific about the behaviorshelps people pinpoint.
Cause sometimes we'll say, we'llsay avoidance of power and we'll
say you're not quarterbacking.
And that makes a lot of sense.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
I feel like I know exactlywhat you're talking about.
(17:51):
And then there arepeople who don't grasp
that nuanced-ness of it.
So I'm wondering if evenif there are some like very
tangible things for peoplewho are wondering, I'm a well
intentioned white executive.
And we probably will get intothis because these aren't
just behaviors of whiteexecutives, but these are
(18:12):
like very strong in them.
But what are these behaviorsthat we see that are exhibited
that can help somebody tune in?
Like, all right, even thoughI have good intentions,
I be doing those things.
This comes up, and again, itcan come up in a number of
ways, but, but the behaviors arefrequently where, a leader will
(18:34):
get extremely activated, right?
Whether it's a holiday,a culturally specific
heritage holiday.
Or right now is a reallygreat time because folks are
super activated by what'shappening on the other side
of the world right now, right?
And so do we as anorganization make a statement?
How do we navigate?
We, we as an organization have,have made this statement, but,
(18:57):
but three managers have saidthis, or certain people in
the company are not wantingto go to supervision because
it's, they're protesting.
Like, how do we handle this?
What happens is instead,and listen, I am a fan
of, of a leader pausing.
I am a fan of a leader saying,I'm not going to respond
(19:17):
right now because I need aminute, but, but that, that
communication doesn't happen.
And so there's an absence.
So if people who are watchingthe leader don't see anything.
They don't see a response.
They don't see communication.
They don't see acknowledgement.
They don't see anything.
That is the absence, right?
(19:38):
And it happens frequently.
It happens frequently.
Where, where there justisn't communication.
Sometimes this willstart from an email.
Somebody says, somebody sendsan inflammatory email to
everybody on the listserv.
And nothing, there'ssilence, right?
There's silence.
As a leader, leaders haveto be really cautious about
(20:02):
how they use their silence.
It is okay to be silent, butrecognize that in the absence
of that, all these narrativesare going to be formed.
And you can't stop that, butwhat you can do is is you can
shape them and you can support,the direction in which they go.
(20:23):
And so it, it, do you wantmore specific examples
or is that helpful?
No, no, I'm not even lookingfor one particular thing.
It's more of, because we're alsomodeling what it looks like to
have an open conversation andjust to see what's in there.
When you were talking, Iwas thinking about, this
is why it's important.
In order to do what you'resaying, by the way, I agree,
(20:43):
you have to have an abilityto be able to pause in self
and understand what you'reexperiencing and what you need
to then say it in a moment.
If you need to pause.
Then you would have to know,you'd have to have the ability
to self regulate and see,Oh, I actually need to pause.
And then I got to bringit back out to share with
(21:05):
people because there's
this
you need that, right?
Yes.
that this is evenan issue, right?
And I, I think it's funny.
So two things, right?
One is that people of colordeal with this all the time.
This idea that and it'snot even an idea, but
this lived experience thatsomething is happening.
Do I need, is there a threat?
Do I, is this going to be like,am I going to be in danger?
(21:27):
Like that, like that issomething that people with
white presentations and whitebodies don't live the same way.
They don't experiencethat the same way.
So that always, that hypervigilance of always being
on alert and having toregulate your nervous system.
Cause if I show that at myjob, I'm not going to have a
job because they're alreadyafraid of me because I'm black.
You see what I'm saying?
(21:47):
So that dynamic of the maskingand the code switching and the
self self regulation, it doesn'thappen for them the same way.
So when they feel it, they are
immobilized.
So you're right, that pieceof this becomes important,
oh, that's what that is.
I need to be aware of whenI'm activated and I need to
know what the steps are forhow to, how to deal with that
(22:07):
in my role as leader or a,also known as quarterback.
I think the other thing isthat it's so interesting
as a, as a Black woman inleadership, I am shocked.
And there is something, there issomething about anti Blackness
that is built into that, right?
We want someonethat looks like us.
We want representation.
But when we get somebody, wedon't talk to you any kind
(22:27):
of way because yeah, you're,you're Black and it's okay.
And there's that internalizedstuff that you talked about that
comes out towards Black leaders.
What is interesting tome, and that we could
go on for seven hours
Yes, girl, you just, youjust ignited something in me.
Go ahead.
It's a real thing.
But what I was, what I wasgoing to say was that for
white leaders, because thereis there is, and people
(22:49):
think, Black women are strong.
They can handle everything.
I can say whatever I want.
It's not going tohurt your feelings.
I don't need to rescue you.
Like all that bulls***.
But, but for white leaders,people are afraid of fragility.
They, they do watchthe immobilization.
They watch theconflict avoidance.
And so they don'ttell each other.
And that's a big thing.
(23:09):
So so what you'll find withthese leaders is that they have
pods, they have cadres of folksaround them who are like, Oh,
like they see it happening,but they don't say anything.
And some of that isbecause they don't think
the person can handle it.
But the other is oftenbecause they benefit from the
proximity and they benefitfrom the relationship.
(23:30):
So they don't wantto upset the person.
They don't want to, to,to change the balance.
They are enjoying the benefits.
There's some unconscious,rewards, as Dr.
Shirley Better talked about,an unconscious reward,
psychological reward thatallows them to, to stay, afloat.
Yeah, yes, completelyagree, and I even want to
(23:50):
add to that list of things.
I just, facilitated aconference workshop, and
it wasn't a presentation.
It was a facilitatedexperiential situation
where I basically hadpeople in their feelings.
And in that, there were abunch of leaders, they all
have their own experiences,but it was starting to be
(24:11):
named, I don't want peopleto know that I don't know.
And I don't want, I don'twant to know that you know
that I don't know, thisis what people are saying.
And then I'm, and thenmy, response to the group
is, did you know thatmost people don't know?
Most people have no idea.
It's very normal, but if wedon't say anything, there's no
other experiences to then learn.
(24:31):
It's okay to not know.
There's this fear of being, one,I don't like actually feeling
like I don't know, and then two,other people know I don't know.
I'm a leader, I'm supposedto know everything.
Leaders aren't supposed toknow everything . And in
this category, it is, to me,an expectation that leaders
do not know everything.
(24:53):
The request is to try stuffto learn, not to know it all.
And I feel like that, thatfear of not wanting to be seen
that way, and now that I'mtalking, there's one more part
of this where I've seen somuch that leaders are afraid of
If leaders are to hold peopleaccountable for, for some of the
(25:16):
behaviors that the organizationis wanting to do differently.
If the leader, a white leader,is the one that's expected to
do that, there's this fear thatif I do it as a white leader,
then I am doing something wrong.
Because it couldbe seen as racist.
And so they don't lean intoholding any boundaries, holding
(25:38):
expectations that the wholeorganization is trying to set.
It's that fear of, I'm goingto be racist if I do it.
Not all things aregoing to be racist.
So recognize that welive in a cancel culture.
And if I say anything thatmakes anybody feel bad, then,
then I will be canceled.
And, and so there is some,there are some very, and
(25:59):
listen, there's a fine linebetween, there's a huge gap
between, between racist andand the fact, and your point
earlier, which is that weall say and do racist sh**.
It's real.
Yes.
yes.
Yeah.
There's, there's, you'reright, there's room.
Here's what I find interesting,is that what people don't
remember in this, and by theway, people of color who are
(26:22):
leaders absolutely strugglewith perfectionism, right?
Because this idea is that wehave been told we have to be
better, we have to go harder,we have to do all the things.
But, but white folks are, arevery afraid to make a mistake,
to make, to perpetuate racism.
I don't want to do,and you're right.
So there's a lack of boundaries.
There's a lack of clarity.
There's a lack ofall the things.
(26:42):
And, and What wasI going to say?
There was somethingimportant about that.
Oh, one of the things thatpromotes psychological
safety is a leader's abilityto model fallibility.
Okay, so leaders have to beable to say, I don't know this.
I made a mistake.
Does anybody else have ideas?
(27:04):
If you don't do that, youdon't create psychological
safety in your team.
So you can be a perfectionistall day long and you
can avoid conflict.
That is never going to createpsychological safety, which will
ultimately change the culture.
Mm.
Yes.
I find myself having to temperjust the 8, 000 directions
(27:26):
I want to go, Well, I'mgoing to stay right here.
Okay.
So we had also talked aboutthe, the good intentions.
You spoke about that earlier.
I just want to lean alittle bit more into it and
just talk about the factthat this is what we see.
This is what's happening,regardless of how much you
care about people, how,how progressive you are,
(27:49):
how much change you want.
That is not the indicatorof good behavior.
Those are great things thatyou want in your heart.
And while that's in yourheart, there are behaviors
to pay attention to.
Can we talk aboutthat and why that is?
Yes, yes.
I think that there, there'sa few things that speak
to me almost immediately.
(28:11):
One is, Hmm.
How do I want tostart with this one?
Okay.
So one is that, that, andI want people who are white
leaders to think about all ofthese things, building them
into their, to their work.
One of the things thatwhite leaders are really
good at learning how todo, and it relates to your
earlier point about am Isaying the wrong thing?
Or did I, I don't wantto upset anybody, or I
(28:32):
don't want to be racist.
If you have learned tounpack diversity, if you have
learned how to, engage aroundintersectionality, first, do it.
Make sure that you buildit into your work, right?
And at the same time, whileyou are, so there should never
be a meeting where you don'tsay, let's talk about, let's,
(28:54):
let's just talk about the piecesthat we, let's talk about the
intersectional pieces of this.
Let's make sure wetalk about that.
That needs to be built in.
And a big part ofintersectionality is
unpacking whiteness.
If you have not spokenthe words, let's talk
about unpacking whiteness.
That is a huge piece of this.
Because that is thething nobody talks about.
Ever.
mm
(29:14):
Ever.
And that means payingattention to the influence
of white supremacy.
It means talking about theamount of white privilege.
It means talkingabout white fragility.
Like, all those pieces.
And right, and modeling thatit's okay to talk about that.
So that's one piece of this.
And I think that wellintentioned folk don't build
that in to their deals.
(29:36):
That's one thatstands out to me.
A second one is that we knowwhat we know and we know
what we don't know, right?
That that's that'swhat people go into it.
There's a third category.
We don't know what we don't know
yeah,
Okay, so we know what we know.
(29:57):
We know what we don't know.
We don't know whatwe don't know.
There is a huge categoryof sh** that we're not
even checking for because wedon't even know it exists.
And so White leaders shouldbe recognizing that the
thing, there is another wholecategory of things that you
are not even aware of becauseyour privilege obscures them.
(30:20):
Do you know that for years, I amhave, my relatives are Jewish.
They're atheist Jews.
So we don't like celebrate,any, I didn't get bat
mitzvah or anything.
But I didn't even, Inever, I celebrate all
the Christian holidays.
It never even occurredto me that other people,
I work in a school.
And I never even considered thatlike certain people wouldn't
be happy with the holidays thatwe were celebrating because
(30:42):
they didn't celebrate them.
Why?
Because I don't knowwhat I don't know.
Yes,
You know what I mean?
That's a real thing.
yes,
And that has nothing todo with intention, right?
One of the, I really need to getlike a tattoo right on my neck.
That intention doesn'tequal impact, right?
What you intend has nothingto do with how you, how
(31:02):
you, how people receive you.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, you're also modeling, partof, your own accountability.
You don't, and you just mademe think just yesterday,
just yesterday I was talkingto one of my friends.
Yeah.
Colleagues who I graduatedfrom the MSW program with,
and she was just talking aboutfirst gen and we got all into
the convo and I'm sittingthere thinking, she's talking
(31:24):
about intersectionality, andI said, nowhere in my mind
had I ever considered firstgen people, their experience,
inclusive language around that.
I was, then I was like,hold on, inclusive language,
the way that, the worldis talking about it right
now, doesn't even includeany of that, like at all.
So I just said, oh my goodness.
I said, I care, butobviously not that much.
(31:45):
It's just not on my radar.
It's not my lived experience.
It's not something, Isaid, and I'm working with
students who are first gen.
They're writing about in theirassignments, and I'm, I'm asking
them, what does this mean?
You're not sayinganything about it.
But without me knowing or havingit in me to care, I don't want
to say care, but I'm sayingcare because there's something
about me that's not risento the level of let me take
(32:08):
action that I have to own too.
So there's that.
but anyhoo,
And and and, and, but thealso, there's an awareness
that like, you can't do it all.
In a, in a faculty meeting, acouple a month ago, my faculty
were, were, on me because I didnot acknowledge appropriately
a, a heritage month.
And, and so I, I, Isaid I was gonna start
(32:29):
to keep track of them.
When I, when I tookstock for what, November,
there's 12 things toacknowledge this month.
There's TransgenderRemembrance Day.
There's Indigenous Peoples Day.
There's like allof these things.
There's, NationalHome Health Day.
And, and what I decided isthat I'm not doing this.
I'm not doing it.
I'm not going to be the culturalconcierge for all, that's not,
(32:51):
that's not the way in whichI'm going to take action.
And so to your point, it,It's not all or nothing.
Like I don't have to doeverything or do nothing.
Like I get to choose howand how I want to honor
and acknowledge things.
And I'm not participating in theoppression olympics where if I
do, if I include this person,it means I excluded this person.
(33:12):
Or if I supportthis group, right?
And and white leaders need tounderstand that, that taking a
stance of collaboration, takinga stance of acknowledgement
doesn't mean doing it alland doing it all perfectly.
It means figuring out how to doit as best as you can in a way
that fits who you are, right?
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
And when you, when you get theseextra pieces of a puzzle that
(33:34):
you have and you don't evenhave all the pieces, it's so
that's, that's what it is to me.
It's a, it's like, Oh crap.
Didn't think about that.
Let me put it in with the restof the things and it'll, it's
gonna do what it needs to do.
And I completely agree aboutthe oppression olympics.
I am thinking a lot about that.
In addition to cancel culture,there's this expectation of
this, I don't know, prove tous with statements while also,
(33:59):
I have to keep in mind thatwe have also said that making
statements is performative.
So I personally don't wantthe way in which I take
action to be my proof topeople by saying words.
I've been thinking a lot aboutdifferent issues that exist.
Researching, where I can takeaction as it makes sense.
(34:20):
And those things aren't thingsthat I'm going to be proving
to people that I'm doing.
It's just, it's just not.
Otherwise that will be my job.
My job will be to be lookingat what people care about
and making the statements.
So I don't you
shape
know,
right?
Shape shifting according toexternal stimuli and need.
Not, not, not, that, that's,that's exactly it, right?
(34:41):
That's exactly
it.
yes,
to, as opposed to grounding androoting to what you're about
and who you're about, right?
Yeah.
So I want to, okay.
We're talking about a
Oh, wait, there was one more.
There was one more thing.
There was one more about the,about the well intentioned.
The other one was thewas, is one of my favorite
things, which is the, is theconcept of multiple truths.
(35:02):
And I think that that'ssomething for, for white leaders
and for those working with whiteleaders to be aware of, is that
we got to be careful of our own
natural inclination to polarizepeople into good and bad.
And then they becomeidealized or devalued and
that just goes nowhere good.
And the reality is, is thatbad people do good things and
(35:22):
good people do bad things.
And lots of reallygood people say and do
incredibly racist things.
And we just gotta, we just gottaknow that it's in all of us.
And, and, and that there's gotto be room for acknowledgement
of that, because otherwise we'reso busy defending our honor
that we miss an opportunity forconnection and inclusion only
(35:43):
exists where there's connection.
Yes.
Yes.
I have a coach.
Her name's Amy Cipolla-Sticklesand she always talks about, when
people hear things that becomeso personalized, but what people
are sharing, it's, it's notit's not about your character.
It's not, your essence.
We're not talking about that.
We're talking about this thing.
You did this, this behavior.
(36:04):
You did.
You're still the person you are.
And you did this thing.
It's not a characterassassination, right?
You said something,you did something.
Those are the thingsthat we can change.
Those are the thingswe can work on.
And I think that'simportant for, for white
leadership as well, right?
Because you can be as wellintentioned, you can still say
things and you can still dothings that impact people in a
(36:26):
way that's harmful or hurtful.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
I want to, all of thesethings come to, to me in
my mind, a very importantplace in the body because we
can talk about this stuff.
But what we're talkingabout is the information
that we're learning and howpeople are dealing with it
and having this awareness.
And you had had some framingaround like the nervous system.
(36:47):
And I want to know if wecan talk a little bit about
that because It's a thingthat everyone has, and it's
a part of why people arestruggling to staying and
stuff to do something with it.
So you speak more onthat nervous system part.
So, the nervous systemis incredibly, I like to
think of the nervous systemlike a car alarm, right?
(37:09):
And the nervous system'sjob is to tell you when
there's an intruder.
But the problem is, just likea car alarm, the random cat
that gets on your car, right?
Sets it off, and it'slike at 3am and your
car alarm is going off.
Or like somebody brushes upagainst it and it goes off.
Depending on your livedexperiences, depending on
your history, your nervoussystem could be more or less.
(37:29):
But the truth is thatthe point of the nervous
system is to tell you whenthere is a threat, right?
And so when somethinghappens, whether it's racially
motivated, whether it's conflictmotivated, again, the level of
sensitivity is based on whereyou come from, the nervous
system sends out a warning.
And typically the warningis to the sympathetic
(37:50):
nervous system, right?
The sympathetic nervoussystem, which, which responds.
And, and for us,that can look like.
Fight, that can look likeflight, that can look
like freeze, that canlook like fawn, right?
It can look a number of ways.
And fawning is one wedon't talk about as much.
And many peoplelearn how to fawn.
We take care of other people.
(38:10):
You're so smart.
You're so good.
I understand you werewell intentioned.
We do all of that.
At the expense of ourselves,and recognize that these are
survival skills to get thatbrontosaurus from eating us.
Whether we gotta run,freeze like a tree, pet
its little back, like we doall the things to protect
ourselves from the threat.
(38:31):
Yes.
What is interesting aboutthis is that it is not limited
to people of color, right?
Everybody's nervous systemreacts when there's a threat.
And, and the key is to recognizethat the worldview narrows.
And so you are not, you don'teven have access to your
rational brain when yournervous system is activated
(38:53):
because your nervous systemis like warning, warning,
warning, warning, warning,warning, warning, warning.
You don't haveaccess to your brain.
So your, to our, ourconversation earlier that,
that we have to recognizewhen we are activated, because
there is nothing that's goingto come out of that, that
is not survival oriented.
We have a responsibilityto soothe ourselves and
(39:15):
self regulate so that wecan continue to have access
to our thinking brains sothat we can make decisions.
And this is where the valueof the pause comes in.
Yes, yes.
Okay, I love this.
That was a lot.
Sorry.
It's important because the, whenI describe the importance of
(39:37):
self regulating, I don't takethe extra step to do all of
what you're actually describingand what you're describing to
me makes me want to be able tolearn it so well that I can use
my own words like you just did.
But that is why selfregulating is important.
Once you self regulate, then youget to do a little different.
So when you're using that,I don't know, you said
(39:58):
brontosaurus, a dinosaur.
I'm just going to go withthat because what happens
is without self regulating,we associate things with,
that's the dinosaur.
But,
but more often than not,when people, because I've
had to help a lot of peopleself regulate to practice, to
hear what's happening.
It's well, did you knowthat when you slow down,
all you felt was the groundshake and that's because
(40:20):
someone threw a ball to you.
It's not the dinosaur.
But you felt the groundshake, you think dinosaur,
and then you're now respondingto a dinosaur when someone
threw a ball to you to play.
And in our interactions,I see it so much where
people are having, they'reengaging with each other.
There's activation.
(40:40):
And because it feels likesomething, immediately, we're
associating that person onthe situation with a thing.
And it's not always thatthing, but we justify what
you want to say something.
Yes, Yes,
Go ahead.
Yes.
Let me, let me add tothat because fair, fair,
a lot of times it isn'ta real dinosaur, right?
(41:02):
It isn't and it isbut sometimes it is
Yes.
Yes.
and, because I think theother side of this is that
right now, no one is okay.
No one is okay.
And, and, but here'swhat I'll say.
Cause let, let's just pretendthat you and I have an
exchange and interaction.
And I say to you, I want totalk about your paperwork or
(41:23):
I want to talk about, I'm yourboss and I want to talk about,
and you're like, and you'relike, like you, you, you,
you become larger than life.
You're like a monster.
And I'm like, what the hell?
Like I just askedabout your paperwork.
This happens all the time and99 percent of the time, your
reaction has nothing to do with,or very little to do with me.
(41:44):
Everybody is not okay already.
And so there is something aboutbeing a leader in this time,
recognizing part of the workand you self soothing means,
did I initiate, first of all,was this a monster at all?
And if it was, how muchof that has to do with me?
And I just wanted to putthat in there because I
think that's a piece of it.
Go ahead.
Sorry.
Yes, no, absolutely.
It is the importance of knowingwhat it is and what it isn't.
(42:06):
Because if you slow down and itis a dinosaur, okay, then you
know what you can do with it.
If it isn't a dinosaur,then you are better able
to do something with it.
My suggestion is selfregulate to know what it is.
So we're not defaultingto the same thing for
every single situation.
That's keeping us out ofunderstanding our needs.
(42:27):
Meeting our needs,communicating with other people.
And then the leadershipcomponent is what
you just described.
I now need to understandwhat I got going on.
Cause I also work with otherpeople and they may need their
own support, or I might needto, in order to be responsive
and help and support, figureout, wait, what's going on here?
Oh, they must thinkit's a dinosaur.
(42:49):
I'm regulated.
Let me help- whateverthe situation is.
But it can, it canabsolutely be, there's
lots of stuff going on inorganizations is the reason
why I care about DEI work.
There are a lot of thingsgoing on that aren't
great and not safe.
And as a result of me helpingpeople unpack, there's a
lot of things that peopleimmediately associate with
(43:10):
safety, lack of safety.
And someone harmed me thathasn't been unpacked because
when they do, it actually isn'tbecause someone did something.
You just have, it's in you.
Yes.
Yes.
And I think that the conceptof like mutuality is important.
(43:30):
Mutual accountability to,for the relationship, for
what's happening in yourself.
So much that you can notthrow up on people all the
time or blame all the time.
Right.
Well, and, and what is,I love what you're saying
because there's so manynuances to it, right?
So if, if we've had an exchange.
(43:52):
And I, and very likefearful and activated.
It would be, I'm your boss.
I could write a reallysh*** email to you.
I could copy my, the HRand my boss and, and, and
I could, I could, thiscould be in your file.
But, but, but we are strivingto be responsive, not reactive.
That's part of leadershipis to be responsive.
(44:14):
so maybe I say, In the moment.
Maybe I say, it looks likeyou're having a really
strong reaction to this.
And I want to takea minute because I'm
reacting to your reaction.
Let's take a minute.
Let's, let's come back.
Let's talk about this.
Let's let's let I need to,I need a minute to cool off.
I'm not going tosay you look upset.
You're not okay.
Like I'm not okay.
(44:35):
Let's take a minute.
We can come backand talk about it.
Because the truth is, is that.
It would be very easy forme, if I don't immediately
react, I could alsothen create a narrative.
Charmaine, you know,Charmaine is crazy.
She's she, you tell her anythingand she's- She's the monster.
It is so easy to createnarratives about people.
And the work is to thengo back and say, what
(44:57):
happened yesterday?
Yeah.
Yes.
Because I don't, I don'tknow where it went wrong.
And you get to then say, forthe last six months, I've
been asking you about thisand you didn't say anything.
And then you come at melike I did something wrong.
And then, then there's, and thenI get to say to you, the way
in which you came at me made itimpossible for me to hear you.
(45:18):
Yeah.
Now there's room for notonly, and let's talk about the
dynamics, let's talk about ourracial backgrounds, let's talk
about our, our differencesand intersectionality.
And, and there's room fornot only acknowledgement of
these issues, but there'sroom for accountability.
But without, without selfregulation, without self
soothing, we are both liable tobe fighting in the parking lot.
(45:39):
And neither one of usgot a job on Monday.
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
I literally just thispast week, I was in a
situation that I created.
I was trying to do something.
I don't know what I wastrying to do, I guess
at the end of the day.
And I was having an impact.
I couldn't acknowledge it.
(46:00):
And at some point I realized,Oh, wait, this is your problem.
But I couldn't understandwhat it was yet.
I just, I knew it was mine.
So I said that, I said,I'm gonna, I need to figure
out what's happening.
Can I come back?
Like I got, we got to come back.
And I did that,I had to do that.
I got some coaching and thenwhen I came back, I said, yo.
(46:21):
Ok look, when this happenedmonths ago, there was this
experience that we had,but I didn't say anything.
And I sat on it for months.
And then otherthings piled onto it.
I said, so when we came tothis moment, which was somewhat
related, I decided that thismeant this, this, and that.
I said, but itwas really because
accountability.
I did not.
(46:42):
Understand my needs.
I didn't express them.
Then I held you accountableto them just unknowingly.
And then they surfaced andI blamed you for something.
That's my bad.
I was like, I'm so sorry.
That was not yours to hold.
It wasn't.
Cause if I told you what myneeds were, I'm willing to bet
we would have figured it out.
That's the kindof person you are.
(47:02):
I can't hold you responsiblefor something that I did.
And that happens.
That happens to me.
It happens to other people,but this was delayed.
You know, like it wasa delayed realization.
So I can
But that, but that's,that's realistic.
It is not, I think that's partof the perfectionist trap.
(47:23):
That we think I should have beenable to do it when it happened.
No!
That's not human,that's not humanity.
Real life is that you don'trealize stuff until it happens.
Three months later, or you'rein the shower on a random
Tuesday and you're like,Oh sh**, that was all me.
And listen, there is no statuteof limitations on, I'm having
a conversation with one of myreally good friends right now
(47:45):
about some behaviors that sheengaged in three years ago.
Three years ago,three years ago.
And I never told her becauseshe couldn't tolerate it
and I couldn't tolerateher not tolerating it.
And so I, I, I, and now,now she's checking for it.
But, but so thereisn't a statute of
limitations on this stuff.
It is okay.
(48:06):
And it is actually, I thinka real expectation to know
that you're not alwaysgoing to know in the moment.
It's great when you do.
But it is, that's not howit, that's not how it works.
It's great.
Yes.
No, mine was a comboof all the things.
It was delayed.
It was in the moment I neededto say, I don't know, but
something I'll be back.
And then coming back.
(48:27):
It, the coming back tome is the important part.
That's everything!
That's everything and don'tsay let's come back and talk
about this and three yearsfrom now the person is like
how can we never wait Becausethat's been where the, the,
the person is, it fills in, youtalk about childhood stuff, you
talk about attachment stuff.
People fill in that withabandonment and rejection
and like all of that stuffgets, gets projected and then
(48:50):
you're like, why are theycrying in staff meetings?
That's why.
And it's not someone's job tonavigate their childhood stuff.
But to recognize that as aleader, going back full circle,
as a leader, you can navigatesome of this by simply self
regulating and, and on thefront end, if you need time,
saying you need time, and thenmaking sure that you circle
(49:12):
back on the back end so that youare responsive, not reactive.
Yes, yes.
Let's keep actually going withthis because I was thinking
a good place to wrap up ison the tangible things that
people can be doing, thatwhite leaders can be doing,
and honestly, if you're nota white leader, and this is
you, you could do this too,which is that regulating part.
I've been really encouragingpeople, once you regulate,
(49:35):
also explore the placesthat you're going to.
I've been helping people,like, where are you going and
what are you responding from?
Because if you can address thatorigin point, you won't have to
keep getting in the same place.
Your responses willstart to reduce.
I don't think that the originsmay go anywhere, but our
(49:59):
reactivity to them can changeif we know what they are.
The, the language, the languagethat, sorry to interrupt you,
no, you go ahead.
The the language that mywork partner and I talk
about all the time is tobe aware of your defaults.
And, and all of usdefault somewhere, right?
Some people default to,like I, I default to humor.
(50:23):
I make jokes inappropriately,like all the time.
Some people default to theyget mad and they challenge.
Some people default tosilence and disconnection.
Like everybodydefaults somewhere.
And listen, this is a big deal.
Figure out like you're toyour point, figure out where
you default, because when youdefault, you are no longer
present and you can't do
(50:44):
any of this work, ifyou are not present.
If your default is avoidance, ifyour default is disconnection,
if your default is getting onyour phone, everybody has one.
And to your point, if you don'tknow that, then you are going
to miss when you check out.
And that, and that adds tothe, to the, to the comp, to
the problem, cause it createsjust more, room for narrative
(51:05):
and, and hurt feelings.
Yeah.
Yes.
I think there could beanother layer to that too.
And that feels likethe therapist y part.
And I don't by any means dotherapy with people, but I am
asking people to be curiousabout like, so your default
is this behavior, but what isit actually activating in you?
So for me, very tangibly,I'll have these responses,
(51:27):
but if I have an experienceand it just funnels down to
that like childhood experienceof you're not important,
I don't like that feeling.
And then it makes medo these behaviors.
But just because thataction happened doesn't
mean I'm not important.
So then I got to speakto little Charmaine.
Girl, you're important.
It's fine.
You regulate.
And then you're present here.
(51:47):
It's, that takes a while.
And so I won't, I won't sithere and do therapy with people,
but I ask them to be curiousabout there's something else in
What's driving that?
What's, what's thefunction of that,
Yes.
Yes.
Some people know what it is.
And it's great.
We can actually work with thatbecause that's what's, that's
who's showing up over here andthat's who you can speak to so
(52:08):
that you can stay connected.
And if you don'tknow, That's okay too.
You could still regulate, becurious about these behaviors.
There's levels to theunderstanding, I think
is what I'm saying.
So tangibly, yes, thenervous system stuff, the
regulating, the defaults.
And if you really wantto go deep, go in there
(52:28):
with those narratives.
What are the things thatyou're saying to yourself?
And what do you need to sayto yourself in that moment
so you can be present ortake care of yourself?
Are there any other thingsthat we would tangibly
say to white leaders?
Mm.
I would say make sure thatyour team, that your team has,
people that you've identifiedas accountability partners.
(52:51):
And so if you have a crewof people that you feel safe
with, that's fine, but, butif they've been your crew
for five years, and, and thishas not ever come up, then
you need to pick some peoplewho can, a person, who can be
your accountability partner.
An accountability partneris someone who you decide
together, you agree to be, andit can't be one way, right?
(53:14):
This is a reciprocalrelationship.
So where you decidetogether to be honest and
transparent with each otherabout all these things.
And it doesn't have to be forproblems, but you can go to your
accountability partner and say,this exchange happened and, and
I want to send an email saying,F you and I hate all of you.
And what do I do?
(53:34):
And the accountabilitypartner is going to be
like, you need to pause.
You need to pause, right?
Or the accountability partnerwill say, what, what are
you doing to self regulate?
My accountability partner, Idon't even have to text him.
I text him all the time.
And he'll be like, youneed to not move, right?
You need to stop.
Don't, no emails, no email.
And I will frequentlybe like, how about now?
And he's no.
(53:55):
How about
now?
And
minutes.
No.
When you stop asking, maybe,But, but, but what we have
learned in our relationshipis that he only needs a day.
I need three days,because it takes me that
long to self regulate.
But, but I've learned from this.
And accountability partnerswill say, you're, you're, no,
you're missing some things.
The accountability partner,I want to be very clear, it's
(54:18):
not their job to educate.
They're not going to be like,let me, because we can Google.
You can find everythingyou need on Google.
I don't need to tellyou about the, the
transatlantic slave trade.
I don't need to tell you about,the history of Palestine.
I don't need to do any of that.
But, but, but what I do needto do is tell you what you're
not seeing about yourself.
So accountabilitypartnerships are important.
I think the other is thatwhite leaderships often
(54:40):
have, leadership oftenhas tons of resources
that they refuse to use.
Right.
And so like, right.
So you, you, you got, yougot your board, you got your
people, you got your, andmaybe you don't want to go
to people that like, are,you don't want them to see
that, you're making mistakes.
But like you got this personand you got a therapist and you
(55:02):
got a coach and you got, whyaren't you using the resources?
So I think it's worthtaking stock of who your
resources are and using them.
yeah, yes, yep,
I think the other thing I wouldsay is that a big part of
(55:23):
quarterbacking is, is reallybeing clear, first of all,
that you are the quarterback.
yeah,
You gotta own it.
You're, you're nota wide receiver.
You're not, you're not,you're not a defensive end.
You, I don't evenknow what that is.
You are the quarterback,the last one, I know what
that
You extended beyondyour acknowledgement
(55:44):
of,
I was like, let mejust pull it back.
I know what a wide receiver is.
Stop talking, Wendy.
Accept that you are thequarterback and, and that you
have, that you have to touchthe ball and that you are, that
you have impact and influence.
And, and so what that meansis that if you don't have
certain skills, you need tolearn them, then you have
responsibility to learn them.
But what it also means is thatwhen you don't know what else
to do, it is your job to groundyourself and the people around
(56:08):
you in the mission and thevalues of the work you're doing.
That will be incredibly helpfulin figuring out how to do this.
You don't have to haveall the answers, but you
can ground yourself andwhat are we doing here?
What is our job?
What is our value system?
What do our, whatis our mission?
That will at least give yousome room to pause and get
(56:29):
yourself regulated until then.
Yes, yes, yep, I feel likeThe term coming to mind is
using that power responsibly,quarterbacking responsibly.
There's a way to do that.
Sometimes people like that typeof terminology, like if you
want to feel good about it.
You are the quarterback,no matter what.
(56:49):
There's nothing you'regoing to do to change that.
Unless you quit, then you won'tbe a quarterback and then,
okay, another one will come.
The only way you're not aquarterback is if you quit.
So you can use that responsibly.
There are ways to do that.
yeah, I,
You know what, it's funny.
I don't love football,but I have to watch it
because my husband likes it.
(57:11):
And my favorite positionin football is the kicker.
It's my favorite position.
And I have always said that if Iplayed football, which obviously
I do not, I would be the kicker.
Because it seems likethe best position, right?
Like you sit on the bench untilsomeone needs you to kick and
then you go out there and youkick and then you sit back down.
That's it.
And sometimes people like,we'll rush the kicker or
whatever, but rarely, like it'ssuch a, but, but the kicker
(57:33):
has such a responsibility.
Like
know, that soundsa little intense.
it's so cool.
It's clutch.
But, but, but the kicker isthe oftentimes when, when the
quarterback can't get, can't getto the end, they can't score, it
will be the kicker that does it.
But that is the exceptionrather than the rule.
really, the quarterback isthe one, despite my love for
the kicker, the quarterbackis the one who does most
(57:56):
of the handling and gets,and scoring, it gets, it
gets, throws to the score.
If you're gonna do that,you really do have to own
it, and you have to figureout what your philosophy
around quarterbacking is.
and you have to really, to yourpoint earlier, Really shine a
light, illuminate the thingsthat you are struggling with,
(58:17):
because just like anything,you got to work on you.
That is accountability.
yes.
Oh my goodness.
Yes.
All right.
Well, I think this isa good place to stop.
I, we talked aboutso many things.
I am,
many things.
I'm looking forwardto watching it again.
And because there'ssome stuff in there that
I know I just pinned.
(58:38):
I thank you for a reallygreat conversation.
Things that were, reallygreat gems for leaders, white
leaders, things that they'rethinking and feeling and doing.
And lots of ways to mitigateor unpack and move into
action, understand self better.
(59:00):
There's so much in thereand I thank you for that.
More of this is needed.
If
It's awesome.
I think it's hardfor people to hear.
And I, and I, I don't know thatuntil this, this time period,
people were even willing tohave these conversations.
So I'm super excited thatyou, not only you invited
me, but that you areinterested and open in, in
(59:22):
navigating this discourse.
Yes, absolutely.
If people want to get intouch with you, what's
the best way to do that?
They can, they, well, if theywant to see what I'm doing,
if they want to read any of myarticles, if they're interested
in me, they can go to mywebsite, which is drwendyashley.
com or wendyashley.
com, because I just addedthat fun domain name.
(59:43):
Or they can email me at, andmy, and my email information
is on there, but it'sdrwendyashley at gmail.
com,
Oh, perfect.
Perfect.
Yes,
I'm not taking any clientsright now, but they can
get in touch with me
anyway.
But you can look and see what'sgoing on and you could say hi.
I have an Instagram too.
I met Dr.
Wendy Ashley on, onG, on on Instagram as
Perfect.
(01:00:03):
If I'm not followingyou, I definitely will.
Like today.
Why?
Why?
Why aren't wefollowing each other?
What's that
about
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
I'm just trying to getin this marketing game.
So I'll just, I'll be around.
okay.
If you need to get in touch withme, you can visit our website
at livingunapologetically.
com.
Email handles are all on there.
You have accessto free resources.
(01:00:24):
Shout out to guided meditationsgiven to today's discussion.
My book's on there.
Bias-Conscious Leadership: A Framework for Leading with (01:00:30):
undefined
Action and Accountability.
If this was interesting toyou, please share for sure,
have conversations with people,talk to people in your network,
challenge each other, supporteach other through the content
that we're talking about.
I think that's it.
I hope to hear from you soonand until next time, bye.
Everybody cannotbe the quarterback.
(00:02):
said
No.
No.
We can do a play where I passit to you and you then go, but I
am still the quarterback, right?
Like we can't allbe the quarterback.
And that is not DEI.
Hey, we are in anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
And today we are talkingabout white executives
leading from a distance.
(00:23):
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, Relational DEI expert.
And if you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come up in ourinteractions with each other
in professional settings orin areas where we feel like
we need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the layers
and the nuances in all of ourinteractions so that we can
(00:44):
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the thoughts, views,opinions that are shared in
today's discussion, they are myown and not as a representative
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
(01:12):
Okay, thank you so muchfor being here, Dr.
Wendy Ashley.
It is an absolute pleasure.
I already know that thisis going to be quite an
engaging and I imaginehilarious discussion.
I met you very briefly,honestly, at Dominguez Hills,
you were the chair there, youdid some really cool work.
And while it was a shortinteraction between us, I
(01:35):
felt like you have an energy,you have a lot of knowledge,
the way that you connectwith people was really cool.
And then in our network, Iheard a lot about you and
the work that you were doing.
So when we connected totalk about this episode,
then I really was thinkingto myself- okay, this is
a person that I can learnfrom, that I want to talk to.
(01:57):
So thank you for beinghere in this space.
I really appreciate you.
Aw, thank you so much.
I'm super excited to be here.
Yes.
Now, would you mind just sharingany parts of who you are?
Just, I don't know, expertise,anything you want to share.
Ha!
that, that could be long,but, but I'll be brief.
I am a professor.
(02:19):
I'm also the departmentchair now at CSUN.
I've been at CSUN, I took alittle leave when I was at
Dominguez for a year, but I'vebeen at CSUN for 16 years.
I also have a private practice,which, the focus of which is
anti-racist, trauma-informed,intersectionally-
focused, therapy.
and the other sort of superpowerthat I have is that I do
(02:40):
justice, equity, anti racist,diversity, and inclusion
organizational trainings.
So I do that sort of ona multi layered approach.
I do that with firststaff trainings.
I do that forleadership training.
and I do that fororganizational climate change.
And that is something that partis relatively new on my, on my
list of things, but I've beena social worker for 27 years?
(03:03):
I'm old school.
I've been in thefield for a minute.
You definitely have beenin all of the places and
just when you do share.
When you share your experience,you can tell that you've
been in a lot of differentareas because your lens
extends to different places.
So to be in like higher ed,to be in leadership spaces,
(03:25):
to be in the clinical space,that clinical space is so
helpful in those areas.
I think more helpful than hasbeen publicly acknowledged.
Yet, to me, I feel like,DEI work, this type of
justice-oriented, anti-racistwork hasn't quite made the
(03:46):
space for the importanceof the clinical aspects.
I can hear in wheneveryou're talking that
piece shine through.
I love you so much right now.
So it's, it's funnybecause academically
there has never been awelcome mat for me, right?
Like I am in academia,I'm a unicorn.
Most people who come to academiacome through, they directly
(04:08):
go to school and then theygo, then they start teaching.
and so their teaching doesn'tinclude practice experience.
And in social work, that's anot, that's a nightmare because
a big part of what we do hasto do with practice experience.
But, but so you're right.
The clinical piece,especially in 2023, right?
When we're talking aboutDEI stuff and a big part of
(04:30):
how you teach that has todo with how you model it.
And so what is interestingabout this conversation and in
my experience as well, is thatin my role as department chairs
and in my role in DEI, what Ihave realized is that my ability
to conceptualize what's goingon, my ability to assess and
identify what it is, often hasto do with things that are less
(04:52):
tangible, like psychologicalsafety or trauma reactivity.
And those are things that Iwould never know if I took
a traditional leadershipperspective, or I took a route
that was just DEI focused,or I was strictly academic.
So you're right, the clinicalmakes me a different kind
of leader, and a differentkind of practitioner, and a
different kind of social worker.
And I think I appreciate yousaying that, because there
(05:14):
isn't a lot of acknowledgementfor that particular skill set.
Yes, yes.
And I say it becauseI am a unicorn, too.
I've been referred to as that.
I don't know how I felt about itat first, but it's a good thing.
It's a good thing.
I feel like the clinicalaspect of what I do is on
top of everything else.
(05:35):
It is what I lead with and theways that we can see what's
happening, lean into, supportpeople through stuff is heavily
clinical and when approached
from the head place all thetime, it's just really hard
to help people through things.
It really
is.
I will say this though.
It's taken me, I'm a little,little older and it's taken me
(05:58):
the last couple decades to learnhow to identify my role before
I start using the skills, right?
So if I'm, if I'm, teaching,or if I'm, in my role as a
professor or an administrator,I'm a social work educator,
and so that means that theclinical informs my decision
making, but it can't guide,like it can't necessarily
(06:19):
guide my intervention.
You know what I'm saying?
Or if I am doing a DEIorganizational training, the
clinical informs how I respond,but it doesn't guide it.
I can't do clinicalinterventions when I'm
not being a clinician.
And so that has takenme a really long time to
learn my lane about that.
Because I was burning myselfout, which I think is a
hugely important element.
(06:40):
We could do a wholepodcast on that.
Because burnout is a big,is a big piece that we
have to be cautious about.
Yes, that could be its ownepisode and maybe it will, cause
I already have my own thoughts.
I'm like, and thenthis, but I'll stop.
Like it's fine.
We said a lot on it.
That's okay.
I do though, think, andwe didn't talk about this.
So you tell me if, if youdon't even want to do this.
(07:02):
One of the things that youand I talked about as well
that impacts and informshow we show up, especially
in this leadership spaceis the fact that we are
white and black and how
I don't know how we grew upthis way, but also maybe our
understanding of what peopleare experiencing and speaking
(07:23):
to in a particular way, theprivilege that comes with having
this skin tone and being ableto get further into places.
I wonder if there's any room forthat as context setting for how
we're seeing this conversation.
A hundred percent.
I think that to be somebodywho has biracial heritage
(07:43):
inherently puts you in aliminal position, right?
And liminal positions in and ofthemselves are uncomfortable.
They're between.
So we don't have amonoracial experience.
We don't know what it'slike to just be White.
We don't know what it'slike to just be Black.
And I think thatthat's a benefit.
There is something about thenuances of understanding,
just all of the, theuncomfortable, gray, liminal
(08:06):
areas that, that I think this,this is what DEI is about.
This is how we unpackand make sense of it.
I, Listen, one of the thingsI know as a clinician is
that when people are afraidand they're uncomfortable,
they start polarizing, right?
Everything is all or nothing.
It's, it's, it's yes, no,it's black, white, it's
all the things and, andthat's a common reaction.
But, but to be someone whounderstands from a lived
(08:29):
experience what it's like toalways be in a liminal space,
that makes it easier for me tobe able to step in and unpack.
I speak, am Icompletely anything?
No, but, but do I code switch?
Absolutely.
Can, can I, can I hangout with a group of Black
people and feel comfortable?
Absolutely.
Can I hang out with abunch of white Women
(08:49):
and feel comfortable?
For the most part.
But, but I have that capacityto shape shift in a way that
isn't just code switching,it's shape shifting, and I
Hmm.
Ooh.
Oh.
All right, True Blood.
All right,
Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness, I havenot heard that, but I
(09:09):
felt it when you said it.
I felt it.
Wow.
Okay, I don't even know ifI can unpack that right now.
I
Nah, you can't have it.
It's deep though, right?
I spent hours on this.
Yes, yes, yes.
Okay.
All right, another episode.
That will be.
(09:30):
I can just see myselfliterally going into places
just doing what you said.
And then
also,
You felt it, didn't
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,yes, yes, yes, yes.
It's to me, what youjust described is
this thing that I do.
And the only thing that Ido that is that I'm aware of
that's attached to that isI have to pay so much to my.
(09:54):
internalized oppression,the things that I do to be
in spaces, to help people,to grow my, I just have
to pay attention to it.
So when you said shapeshift, it was almost like
my shape was shifting.
And then my, what I am awareof is this internalized
oppression that I haveto, what are you doing?
Why are you doing it?
(10:15):
And it's a lot to do ina moment, especially when
you're serving other people.
Cause you have to be awareof self and then others.
So you just gave meanother thing to sit with.
And consider, and I willdo that soon, or we will
do this in another episode.
So we don't have to tablenow two things to come
back on and talk about.
Fair.
(10:35):
I will say this aboutthe shapeshift too.
I think that, and then wecan be done, I promise.
The thing about theshapeshift is that when you
are shifting shapes, right?
You got to be thoughtful about,are you, is your accommodation
to the other or is youraccommodation to self, right?
So if I were to shapeshiftinto a wolf, Am I, am I about
(10:59):
what it means to be a wolf?
And obviously this is anexaggeration or am I, or
am I, but not really, oram I, or am I accommodating
to what, what my prey is?
Am I trying to kill you?
You see what I'm saying?
So like, how am I acclimating?
Am I acclimating based onwhat's externally motivating?
Cause that's a big deal.
Or is it about, and I thinkit takes a really long time
(11:20):
for people of multiracialheritage to be able to learn
how to ground that accordingto who I am, and not what's
externally motivated, whichis, again, in and of itself,
a whole conversation.
Yes.
Yes.
And, and just for my lens,even for setting up in this
conversation, when I trainor coach people, I openly
acknowledge the way that I wasraised and, I don't think that
(11:44):
the people who raised me wouldagree with this, so just keep
this in mind, but it is myexperience that I was raised to
be racist, and homophobic, andageist, and many other isms.
I really was.
And I had to, I got to apoint, and this happened in
the Dominguez Hills program.
(12:06):
Because of CRT, I got to thepoint where I had to look
at things and unpack them.
And there's a lot aboutthe white experience in
having to address selfthat I had to actually do.
I had to do that.
I was doing thingsto other people.
I was doing things to myself.
So I actually understand thework that I'm asking people to
do because I had to do it and itdoesn't feel good, but I get it.
(12:30):
So at times.
I speak to it from, Ireally, really get that.
I know it so well.
Here's what you're likelyexperiencing and here's
some ways through it insteadof you need to do it.
So I will, in the nameof helping people, if I
decide and have the timeand energy, enter into that
space of, I'm that too.
(12:52):
I've done that too.
I still have to pay attention.
I still do.
Yeah,
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, let's, I think thatthat was still on topic.
I think it was a nice intro.
it's a lovely segue.
Okay, so when we say whiteexecutives are leading
from a distance, whatare we actually saying?
(13:13):
Yeah.
is the quarterback.
And, and I said this to youbefore, but I, the way I define
this is that I call this typeof leadership quarterbacks who
don't want to be quarterbacks.
I mean that because I don'tknow if how many of people
who are seeing this are, watchfootball or understand football.
(13:36):
But, but football, thequarterback is the, is
the, is the star, right?
The quarterback is theleader of the offense.
The quarterback calls plays.
The quarterback, handlesthe ball more than anybody.
And the quarterback isreally responsible for
forward movement, whichleads towards scoring.
Okay.
That's what thequarterback does.
(13:56):
And so, when we're talkingabout white leadership that,
or folks that who, that don'twant a quarterback, this
is, or distance related,this is somebody who's in
the game, on the field, andrefusing to touch the ball.
Okay?
And, and, and, we wantto contextualize, right?
Because these are not people whoare, who are uninterested, or
(14:18):
who are, who are not committed.
These, these are the folks thatRobin DiAngelo talked about
in her book, White Fragility.
These are folks who arelibera and conscious and
well intentioned and whocare about justice, equity,
diversity, inclusion.
But, but these are people whowhen they get uncomfortable
and when they get activated,they disappear and disconnect.
(14:40):
And so everyone's like,where's the quarterback?
What, what are we doing?
And there's a, there's afeeling of, for a lot of folks
who are, who are on the fieldas well, they feel betrayed.
They feel, abandoned.
They feel, alone.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
When you shared thatanalogy, it cracked me up.
It was so funny.
(15:03):
It's a really coolway to think about it.
And it's a very realthing I see too.
And I just frame it asthere's just, there's
this avoidance of power.
Yes.
Just really, for somereason, I get it.
Power could not beused for good things.
It's really not in a lotof places and that's its
own, series, if you will.
But power doesn't have tobe this thing that people
(15:25):
are afraid of or don'tneed to be associated with.
People could use powerresponsibly, but right now
there's just this avoidance.
I want to share power.
Sharing power is great, but,but also you can't disregard
the power that you hold too.
So there's also this well,with the power I have, I want
(15:45):
to share it to other people.
So all of us are quarterbacks.
And I think that there, I don'tknow all the football analogies,
so I'm not going to even.
Try it?
be the quarterback.
Everybody cannotbe the quarterback.
said
no,
no.
We can do a play where I passit to you and you then go, but I
(16:06):
am still the quarterback, right?
Like we can't allbe the quarterback.
And that is not DEI.
That is not DEI to make, let'sall play, let's all, that's like
saying, let me see, don't letme get started because I'm gonna
start talking about everybodygetting trophies and everybody
don't need to get a trophy.
I, I, let me not go into that.
But, but everybody canbe the quarterback.
But, but to your point,a piece of it is avoiding
(16:26):
power, but I actually thinkof it as immobilization.
These are folks that when theyget uncomfortable, they, there,
there is avoidance, right?
There is conflict avoidance.
There is, thereis immobilization.
And typically theimmobilization, this often
happens around decision making.
So I need to make a decision.
Something has happened.
I feel reactive.
(16:47):
Other people feel reactive.
I don't want to upset them.
I don't want to saythe wrong thing.
I don't want to make it worse.
And so that, that,feeling that fear, that
discomfort, causes a level ofimmobilization and avoidance.
And so what peopledo is they retreat.
Mhm.
And, and it often lookslike them letting other
(17:09):
people make decisions.
It looks like, like, whyaren't they responding?
What are they doing?
And, and the, especially thepeople of color around are
like, what are you doing?
What are you doing?
Why, where are you going?
We need you right now.
And, and it's, it's, it's,it's a very clear absence.
(17:29):
Yes, yes.
I, I know we're talking,we're talking as behaviorally
specific, I think, as we can,but I have found that being
specific about the behaviorshelps people pinpoint.
Cause sometimes we'll say, we'llsay avoidance of power and we'll
say you're not quarterbacking.
And that makes a lot of sense.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
I feel like I know exactlywhat you're talking about.
(17:51):
And then there arepeople who don't grasp
that nuanced-ness of it.
So I'm wondering if evenif there are some like very
tangible things for peoplewho are wondering, I'm a well
intentioned white executive.
And we probably will get intothis because these aren't
just behaviors of whiteexecutives, but these are
(18:12):
like very strong in them.
But what are these behaviorsthat we see that are exhibited
that can help somebody tune in?
Like, all right, even thoughI have good intentions,
I be doing those things.
This comes up, and again, itcan come up in a number of
ways, but, but the behaviors arefrequently where, a leader will
(18:34):
get extremely activated, right?
Whether it's a holiday,a culturally specific
heritage holiday.
Or right now is a reallygreat time because folks are
super activated by what'shappening on the other side
of the world right now, right?
And so do we as anorganization make a statement?
How do we navigate?
We, we as an organization have,have made this statement, but,
(18:57):
but three managers have saidthis, or certain people in
the company are not wantingto go to supervision because
it's, they're protesting.
Like, how do we handle this?
What happens is instead,and listen, I am a fan
of, of a leader pausing.
I am a fan of a leader saying,I'm not going to respond
(19:17):
right now because I need aminute, but, but that, that
communication doesn't happen.
And so there's an absence.
So if people who are watchingthe leader don't see anything.
They don't see a response.
They don't see communication.
They don't see acknowledgement.
They don't see anything.
That is the absence, right?
(19:38):
And it happens frequently.
It happens frequently.
Where, where there justisn't communication.
Sometimes this willstart from an email.
Somebody says, somebody sendsan inflammatory email to
everybody on the listserv.
And nothing, there'ssilence, right?
There's silence.
As a leader, leaders haveto be really cautious about
(20:02):
how they use their silence.
It is okay to be silent, butrecognize that in the absence
of that, all these narrativesare going to be formed.
And you can't stop that, butwhat you can do is is you can
shape them and you can support,the direction in which they go.
(20:23):
And so it, it, do you wantmore specific examples
or is that helpful?
No, no, I'm not even lookingfor one particular thing.
It's more of, because we're alsomodeling what it looks like to
have an open conversation andjust to see what's in there.
When you were talking, Iwas thinking about, this
is why it's important.
In order to do what you'resaying, by the way, I agree,
(20:43):
you have to have an abilityto be able to pause in self
and understand what you'reexperiencing and what you need
to then say it in a moment.
If you need to pause.
Then you would have to know,you'd have to have the ability
to self regulate and see,Oh, I actually need to pause.
And then I got to bringit back out to share with
(21:05):
people because there's
this
you need that, right?
Yes.
that this is evenan issue, right?
And I, I think it's funny.
So two things, right?
One is that people of colordeal with this all the time.
This idea that and it'snot even an idea, but
this lived experience thatsomething is happening.
Do I need, is there a threat?
Do I, is this going to be like,am I going to be in danger?
(21:27):
Like that, like that issomething that people with
white presentations and whitebodies don't live the same way.
They don't experiencethat the same way.
So that always, that hypervigilance of always being
on alert and having toregulate your nervous system.
Cause if I show that at myjob, I'm not going to have a
job because they're alreadyafraid of me because I'm black.
You see what I'm saying?
(21:47):
So that dynamic of the maskingand the code switching and the
self self regulation, it doesn'thappen for them the same way.
So when they feel it, they are
immobilized.
So you're right, that pieceof this becomes important,
oh, that's what that is.
I need to be aware of whenI'm activated and I need to
know what the steps are forhow to, how to deal with that
(22:07):
in my role as leader or a,also known as quarterback.
I think the other thing isthat it's so interesting
as a, as a Black woman inleadership, I am shocked.
And there is something, there issomething about anti Blackness
that is built into that, right?
We want someonethat looks like us.
We want representation.
But when we get somebody, wedon't talk to you any kind
(22:27):
of way because yeah, you're,you're Black and it's okay.
And there's that internalizedstuff that you talked about that
comes out towards Black leaders.
What is interesting tome, and that we could
go on for seven hours
Yes, girl, you just, youjust ignited something in me.
Go ahead.
It's a real thing.
But what I was, what I wasgoing to say was that for
white leaders, because thereis there is, and people
(22:49):
think, Black women are strong.
They can handle everything.
I can say whatever I want.
It's not going tohurt your feelings.
I don't need to rescue you.
Like all that bulls***.
But, but for white leaders,people are afraid of fragility.
They, they do watchthe immobilization.
They watch theconflict avoidance.
And so they don'ttell each other.
And that's a big thing.
(23:09):
So so what you'll find withthese leaders is that they have
pods, they have cadres of folksaround them who are like, Oh,
like they see it happening,but they don't say anything.
And some of that isbecause they don't think
the person can handle it.
But the other is oftenbecause they benefit from the
proximity and they benefitfrom the relationship.
(23:30):
So they don't wantto upset the person.
They don't want to, to,to change the balance.
They are enjoying the benefits.
There's some unconscious,rewards, as Dr.
Shirley Better talked about,an unconscious reward,
psychological reward thatallows them to, to stay, afloat.
Yeah, yes, completelyagree, and I even want to
(23:50):
add to that list of things.
I just, facilitated aconference workshop, and
it wasn't a presentation.
It was a facilitatedexperiential situation
where I basically hadpeople in their feelings.
And in that, there were abunch of leaders, they all
have their own experiences,but it was starting to be
(24:11):
named, I don't want peopleto know that I don't know.
And I don't want, I don'twant to know that you know
that I don't know, thisis what people are saying.
And then I'm, and thenmy, response to the group
is, did you know thatmost people don't know?
Most people have no idea.
It's very normal, but if wedon't say anything, there's no
other experiences to then learn.
(24:31):
It's okay to not know.
There's this fear of being, one,I don't like actually feeling
like I don't know, and then two,other people know I don't know.
I'm a leader, I'm supposedto know everything.
Leaders aren't supposed toknow everything . And in
this category, it is, to me,an expectation that leaders
do not know everything.
(24:53):
The request is to try stuffto learn, not to know it all.
And I feel like that, thatfear of not wanting to be seen
that way, and now that I'mtalking, there's one more part
of this where I've seen somuch that leaders are afraid of
If leaders are to hold peopleaccountable for, for some of the
(25:16):
behaviors that the organizationis wanting to do differently.
If the leader, a white leader,is the one that's expected to
do that, there's this fear thatif I do it as a white leader,
then I am doing something wrong.
Because it couldbe seen as racist.
And so they don't lean intoholding any boundaries, holding
(25:38):
expectations that the wholeorganization is trying to set.
It's that fear of, I'm goingto be racist if I do it.
Not all things aregoing to be racist.
So recognize that welive in a cancel culture.
And if I say anything thatmakes anybody feel bad, then,
then I will be canceled.
And, and so there is some,there are some very, and
(25:59):
listen, there's a fine linebetween, there's a huge gap
between, between racist andand the fact, and your point
earlier, which is that weall say and do racist sh**.
It's real.
Yes.
yes.
Yeah.
There's, there's, you'reright, there's room.
Here's what I find interesting,is that what people don't
remember in this, and by theway, people of color who are
(26:22):
leaders absolutely strugglewith perfectionism, right?
Because this idea is that wehave been told we have to be
better, we have to go harder,we have to do all the things.
But, but white folks are, arevery afraid to make a mistake,
to make, to perpetuate racism.
I don't want to do,and you're right.
So there's a lack of boundaries.
There's a lack of clarity.
There's a lack ofall the things.
(26:42):
And, and What wasI going to say?
There was somethingimportant about that.
Oh, one of the things thatpromotes psychological
safety is a leader's abilityto model fallibility.
Okay, so leaders have to beable to say, I don't know this.
I made a mistake.
Does anybody else have ideas?
(27:04):
If you don't do that, youdon't create psychological
safety in your team.
So you can be a perfectionistall day long and you
can avoid conflict.
That is never going to createpsychological safety, which will
ultimately change the culture.
Mm.
Yes.
I find myself having to temperjust the 8, 000 directions
(27:26):
I want to go, Well, I'mgoing to stay right here.
Okay.
So we had also talked aboutthe, the good intentions.
You spoke about that earlier.
I just want to lean alittle bit more into it and
just talk about the factthat this is what we see.
This is what's happening,regardless of how much you
care about people, how,how progressive you are,
(27:49):
how much change you want.
That is not the indicatorof good behavior.
Those are great things thatyou want in your heart.
And while that's in yourheart, there are behaviors
to pay attention to.
Can we talk aboutthat and why that is?
Yes, yes.
I think that there, there'sa few things that speak
to me almost immediately.
(28:11):
One is, Hmm.
How do I want tostart with this one?
Okay.
So one is that, that, andI want people who are white
leaders to think about all ofthese things, building them
into their, to their work.
One of the things thatwhite leaders are really
good at learning how todo, and it relates to your
earlier point about am Isaying the wrong thing?
Or did I, I don't wantto upset anybody, or I
(28:32):
don't want to be racist.
If you have learned tounpack diversity, if you have
learned how to, engage aroundintersectionality, first, do it.
Make sure that you buildit into your work, right?
And at the same time, whileyou are, so there should never
be a meeting where you don'tsay, let's talk about, let's,
(28:54):
let's just talk about the piecesthat we, let's talk about the
intersectional pieces of this.
Let's make sure wetalk about that.
That needs to be built in.
And a big part ofintersectionality is
unpacking whiteness.
If you have not spokenthe words, let's talk
about unpacking whiteness.
That is a huge piece of this.
Because that is thething nobody talks about.
Ever.
mm
(29:14):
Ever.
And that means payingattention to the influence
of white supremacy.
It means talking about theamount of white privilege.
It means talkingabout white fragility.
Like, all those pieces.
And right, and modeling thatit's okay to talk about that.
So that's one piece of this.
And I think that wellintentioned folk don't build
that in to their deals.
(29:36):
That's one thatstands out to me.
A second one is that we knowwhat we know and we know
what we don't know, right?
That that's that'swhat people go into it.
There's a third category.
We don't know what we don't know
yeah,
Okay, so we know what we know.
(29:57):
We know what we don't know.
We don't know whatwe don't know.
There is a huge categoryof sh** that we're not
even checking for because wedon't even know it exists.
And so White leaders shouldbe recognizing that the
thing, there is another wholecategory of things that you
are not even aware of becauseyour privilege obscures them.
(30:20):
Do you know that for years, I amhave, my relatives are Jewish.
They're atheist Jews.
So we don't like celebrate,any, I didn't get bat
mitzvah or anything.
But I didn't even, Inever, I celebrate all
the Christian holidays.
It never even occurredto me that other people,
I work in a school.
And I never even considered thatlike certain people wouldn't
be happy with the holidays thatwe were celebrating because
(30:42):
they didn't celebrate them.
Why?
Because I don't knowwhat I don't know.
Yes,
You know what I mean?
That's a real thing.
yes,
And that has nothing todo with intention, right?
One of the, I really need to getlike a tattoo right on my neck.
That intention doesn'tequal impact, right?
What you intend has nothingto do with how you, how
(31:02):
you, how people receive you.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, you're also modeling, partof, your own accountability.
You don't, and you just mademe think just yesterday,
just yesterday I was talkingto one of my friends.
Yeah.
Colleagues who I graduatedfrom the MSW program with,
and she was just talking aboutfirst gen and we got all into
the convo and I'm sittingthere thinking, she's talking
(31:24):
about intersectionality, andI said, nowhere in my mind
had I ever considered firstgen people, their experience,
inclusive language around that.
I was, then I was like,hold on, inclusive language,
the way that, the worldis talking about it right
now, doesn't even includeany of that, like at all.
So I just said, oh my goodness.
I said, I care, butobviously not that much.
(31:45):
It's just not on my radar.
It's not my lived experience.
It's not something, Isaid, and I'm working with
students who are first gen.
They're writing about in theirassignments, and I'm, I'm asking
them, what does this mean?
You're not sayinganything about it.
But without me knowing or havingit in me to care, I don't want
to say care, but I'm sayingcare because there's something
about me that's not risento the level of let me take
(32:08):
action that I have to own too.
So there's that.
but anyhoo,
And and and, and, but thealso, there's an awareness
that like, you can't do it all.
In a, in a faculty meeting, acouple a month ago, my faculty
were, were, on me because I didnot acknowledge appropriately
a, a heritage month.
And, and so I, I, Isaid I was gonna start
(32:29):
to keep track of them.
When I, when I tookstock for what, November,
there's 12 things toacknowledge this month.
There's TransgenderRemembrance Day.
There's Indigenous Peoples Day.
There's like allof these things.
There's, NationalHome Health Day.
And, and what I decided isthat I'm not doing this.
I'm not doing it.
I'm not going to be the culturalconcierge for all, that's not,
(32:51):
that's not the way in whichI'm going to take action.
And so to your point, it,It's not all or nothing.
Like I don't have to doeverything or do nothing.
Like I get to choose howand how I want to honor
and acknowledge things.
And I'm not participating in theoppression olympics where if I
do, if I include this person,it means I excluded this person.
(33:12):
Or if I supportthis group, right?
And and white leaders need tounderstand that, that taking a
stance of collaboration, takinga stance of acknowledgement
doesn't mean doing it alland doing it all perfectly.
It means figuring out how to doit as best as you can in a way
that fits who you are, right?
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
And when you, when you get theseextra pieces of a puzzle that
(33:34):
you have and you don't evenhave all the pieces, it's so
that's, that's what it is to me.
It's a, it's like, Oh crap.
Didn't think about that.
Let me put it in with the restof the things and it'll, it's
gonna do what it needs to do.
And I completely agree aboutthe oppression olympics.
I am thinking a lot about that.
In addition to cancel culture,there's this expectation of
this, I don't know, prove tous with statements while also,
(33:59):
I have to keep in mind thatwe have also said that making
statements is performative.
So I personally don't wantthe way in which I take
action to be my proof topeople by saying words.
I've been thinking a lot aboutdifferent issues that exist.
Researching, where I can takeaction as it makes sense.
(34:20):
And those things aren't thingsthat I'm going to be proving
to people that I'm doing.
It's just, it's just not.
Otherwise that will be my job.
My job will be to be lookingat what people care about
and making the statements.
So I don't you
shape
know,
right?
Shape shifting according toexternal stimuli and need.
Not, not, not, that, that's,that's exactly it, right?
(34:41):
That's exactly
it.
yes,
to, as opposed to grounding androoting to what you're about
and who you're about, right?
Yeah.
So I want to, okay.
We're talking about a
Oh, wait, there was one more.
There was one more thing.
There was one more about the,about the well intentioned.
The other one was thewas, is one of my favorite
things, which is the, is theconcept of multiple truths.
(35:02):
And I think that that'ssomething for, for white leaders
and for those working with whiteleaders to be aware of, is that
we got to be careful of our own
natural inclination to polarizepeople into good and bad.
And then they becomeidealized or devalued and
that just goes nowhere good.
And the reality is, is thatbad people do good things and
(35:22):
good people do bad things.
And lots of reallygood people say and do
incredibly racist things.
And we just gotta, we just gottaknow that it's in all of us.
And, and, and that there's gotto be room for acknowledgement
of that, because otherwise we'reso busy defending our honor
that we miss an opportunity forconnection and inclusion only
(35:43):
exists where there's connection.
Yes.
Yes.
I have a coach.
Her name's Amy Cipolla-Sticklesand she always talks about, when
people hear things that becomeso personalized, but what people
are sharing, it's, it's notit's not about your character.
It's not, your essence.
We're not talking about that.
We're talking about this thing.
You did this, this behavior.
(36:04):
You did.
You're still the person you are.
And you did this thing.
It's not a characterassassination, right?
You said something,you did something.
Those are the thingsthat we can change.
Those are the thingswe can work on.
And I think that'simportant for, for white
leadership as well, right?
Because you can be as wellintentioned, you can still say
things and you can still dothings that impact people in a
(36:26):
way that's harmful or hurtful.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
I want to, all of thesethings come to, to me in
my mind, a very importantplace in the body because we
can talk about this stuff.
But what we're talkingabout is the information
that we're learning and howpeople are dealing with it
and having this awareness.
And you had had some framingaround like the nervous system.
(36:47):
And I want to know if wecan talk a little bit about
that because It's a thingthat everyone has, and it's
a part of why people arestruggling to staying and
stuff to do something with it.
So you speak more onthat nervous system part.
So, the nervous systemis incredibly, I like to
think of the nervous systemlike a car alarm, right?
(37:09):
And the nervous system'sjob is to tell you when
there's an intruder.
But the problem is, just likea car alarm, the random cat
that gets on your car, right?
Sets it off, and it'slike at 3am and your
car alarm is going off.
Or like somebody brushes upagainst it and it goes off.
Depending on your livedexperiences, depending on
your history, your nervoussystem could be more or less.
(37:29):
But the truth is thatthe point of the nervous
system is to tell you whenthere is a threat, right?
And so when somethinghappens, whether it's racially
motivated, whether it's conflictmotivated, again, the level of
sensitivity is based on whereyou come from, the nervous
system sends out a warning.
And typically the warningis to the sympathetic
(37:50):
nervous system, right?
The sympathetic nervoussystem, which, which responds.
And, and for us,that can look like.
Fight, that can look likeflight, that can look
like freeze, that canlook like fawn, right?
It can look a number of ways.
And fawning is one wedon't talk about as much.
And many peoplelearn how to fawn.
We take care of other people.
(38:10):
You're so smart.
You're so good.
I understand you werewell intentioned.
We do all of that.
At the expense of ourselves,and recognize that these are
survival skills to get thatbrontosaurus from eating us.
Whether we gotta run,freeze like a tree, pet
its little back, like we doall the things to protect
ourselves from the threat.
(38:31):
Yes.
What is interesting aboutthis is that it is not limited
to people of color, right?
Everybody's nervous systemreacts when there's a threat.
And, and the key is to recognizethat the worldview narrows.
And so you are not, you don'teven have access to your
rational brain when yournervous system is activated
(38:53):
because your nervous systemis like warning, warning,
warning, warning, warning,warning, warning, warning.
You don't haveaccess to your brain.
So your, to our, ourconversation earlier that,
that we have to recognizewhen we are activated, because
there is nothing that's goingto come out of that, that
is not survival oriented.
We have a responsibilityto soothe ourselves and
(39:15):
self regulate so that wecan continue to have access
to our thinking brains sothat we can make decisions.
And this is where the valueof the pause comes in.
Yes, yes.
Okay, I love this.
That was a lot.
Sorry.
It's important because the, whenI describe the importance of
(39:37):
self regulating, I don't takethe extra step to do all of
what you're actually describingand what you're describing to
me makes me want to be able tolearn it so well that I can use
my own words like you just did.
But that is why selfregulating is important.
Once you self regulate, then youget to do a little different.
So when you're using that,I don't know, you said
(39:58):
brontosaurus, a dinosaur.
I'm just going to go withthat because what happens
is without self regulating,we associate things with,
that's the dinosaur.
But,
but more often than not,when people, because I've
had to help a lot of peopleself regulate to practice, to
hear what's happening.
It's well, did you knowthat when you slow down,
all you felt was the groundshake and that's because
(40:20):
someone threw a ball to you.
It's not the dinosaur.
But you felt the groundshake, you think dinosaur,
and then you're now respondingto a dinosaur when someone
threw a ball to you to play.
And in our interactions,I see it so much where
people are having, they'reengaging with each other.
There's activation.
(40:40):
And because it feels likesomething, immediately, we're
associating that person onthe situation with a thing.
And it's not always thatthing, but we justify what
you want to say something.
Yes, Yes,
Go ahead.
Yes.
Let me, let me add tothat because fair, fair,
a lot of times it isn'ta real dinosaur, right?
(41:02):
It isn't and it isbut sometimes it is
Yes.
Yes.
and, because I think theother side of this is that
right now, no one is okay.
No one is okay.
And, and, but here'swhat I'll say.
Cause let, let's just pretendthat you and I have an
exchange and interaction.
And I say to you, I want totalk about your paperwork or
(41:23):
I want to talk about, I'm yourboss and I want to talk about,
and you're like, and you'relike, like you, you, you,
you become larger than life.
You're like a monster.
And I'm like, what the hell?
Like I just askedabout your paperwork.
This happens all the time and99 percent of the time, your
reaction has nothing to do with,or very little to do with me.
(41:44):
Everybody is not okay already.
And so there is something aboutbeing a leader in this time,
recognizing part of the workand you self soothing means,
did I initiate, first of all,was this a monster at all?
And if it was, how muchof that has to do with me?
And I just wanted to putthat in there because I
think that's a piece of it.
Go ahead.
Sorry.
Yes, no, absolutely.
It is the importance of knowingwhat it is and what it isn't.
(42:06):
Because if you slow down and itis a dinosaur, okay, then you
know what you can do with it.
If it isn't a dinosaur,then you are better able
to do something with it.
My suggestion is selfregulate to know what it is.
So we're not defaultingto the same thing for
every single situation.
That's keeping us out ofunderstanding our needs.
(42:27):
Meeting our needs,communicating with other people.
And then the leadershipcomponent is what
you just described.
I now need to understandwhat I got going on.
Cause I also work with otherpeople and they may need their
own support, or I might needto, in order to be responsive
and help and support, figureout, wait, what's going on here?
Oh, they must thinkit's a dinosaur.
(42:49):
I'm regulated.
Let me help- whateverthe situation is.
But it can, it canabsolutely be, there's
lots of stuff going on inorganizations is the reason
why I care about DEI work.
There are a lot of thingsgoing on that aren't
great and not safe.
And as a result of me helpingpeople unpack, there's a
lot of things that peopleimmediately associate with
(43:10):
safety, lack of safety.
And someone harmed me thathasn't been unpacked because
when they do, it actually isn'tbecause someone did something.
You just have, it's in you.
Yes.
Yes.
And I think that the conceptof like mutuality is important.
(43:30):
Mutual accountability to,for the relationship, for
what's happening in yourself.
So much that you can notthrow up on people all the
time or blame all the time.
Right.
Well, and, and what is,I love what you're saying
because there's so manynuances to it, right?
So if, if we've had an exchange.
(43:52):
And I, and very likefearful and activated.
It would be, I'm your boss.
I could write a reallysh*** email to you.
I could copy my, the HRand my boss and, and, and
I could, I could, thiscould be in your file.
But, but, but we are strivingto be responsive, not reactive.
That's part of leadershipis to be responsive.
(44:14):
so maybe I say, In the moment.
Maybe I say, it looks likeyou're having a really
strong reaction to this.
And I want to takea minute because I'm
reacting to your reaction.
Let's take a minute.
Let's, let's come back.
Let's talk about this.
Let's let's let I need to,I need a minute to cool off.
I'm not going tosay you look upset.
You're not okay.
Like I'm not okay.
(44:35):
Let's take a minute.
We can come backand talk about it.
Because the truth is, is that.
It would be very easy forme, if I don't immediately
react, I could alsothen create a narrative.
Charmaine, you know,Charmaine is crazy.
She's she, you tell her anythingand she's- She's the monster.
It is so easy to createnarratives about people.
And the work is to thengo back and say, what
(44:57):
happened yesterday?
Yeah.
Yes.
Because I don't, I don'tknow where it went wrong.
And you get to then say, forthe last six months, I've
been asking you about thisand you didn't say anything.
And then you come at melike I did something wrong.
And then, then there's, and thenI get to say to you, the way
in which you came at me made itimpossible for me to hear you.
(45:18):
Yeah.
Now there's room for notonly, and let's talk about the
dynamics, let's talk about ourracial backgrounds, let's talk
about our, our differencesand intersectionality.
And, and there's room fornot only acknowledgement of
these issues, but there'sroom for accountability.
But without, without selfregulation, without self
soothing, we are both liable tobe fighting in the parking lot.
(45:39):
And neither one of usgot a job on Monday.
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
I literally just thispast week, I was in a
situation that I created.
I was trying to do something.
I don't know what I wastrying to do, I guess
at the end of the day.
And I was having an impact.
I couldn't acknowledge it.
(46:00):
And at some point I realized,Oh, wait, this is your problem.
But I couldn't understandwhat it was yet.
I just, I knew it was mine.
So I said that, I said,I'm gonna, I need to figure
out what's happening.
Can I come back?
Like I got, we got to come back.
And I did that,I had to do that.
I got some coaching and thenwhen I came back, I said, yo.
(46:21):
Ok look, when this happenedmonths ago, there was this
experience that we had,but I didn't say anything.
And I sat on it for months.
And then otherthings piled onto it.
I said, so when we came tothis moment, which was somewhat
related, I decided that thismeant this, this, and that.
I said, but itwas really because
accountability.
I did not.
(46:42):
Understand my needs.
I didn't express them.
Then I held you accountableto them just unknowingly.
And then they surfaced andI blamed you for something.
That's my bad.
I was like, I'm so sorry.
That was not yours to hold.
It wasn't.
Cause if I told you what myneeds were, I'm willing to bet
we would have figured it out.
That's the kindof person you are.
(47:02):
I can't hold you responsiblefor something that I did.
And that happens.
That happens to me.
It happens to other people,but this was delayed.
You know, like it wasa delayed realization.
So I can
But that, but that's,that's realistic.
It is not, I think that's partof the perfectionist trap.
(47:23):
That we think I should have beenable to do it when it happened.
No!
That's not human,that's not humanity.
Real life is that you don'trealize stuff until it happens.
Three months later, or you'rein the shower on a random
Tuesday and you're like,Oh sh**, that was all me.
And listen, there is no statuteof limitations on, I'm having
a conversation with one of myreally good friends right now
(47:45):
about some behaviors that sheengaged in three years ago.
Three years ago,three years ago.
And I never told her becauseshe couldn't tolerate it
and I couldn't tolerateher not tolerating it.
And so I, I, I, and now,now she's checking for it.
But, but so thereisn't a statute of
limitations on this stuff.
It is okay.
(48:06):
And it is actually, I thinka real expectation to know
that you're not alwaysgoing to know in the moment.
It's great when you do.
But it is, that's not howit, that's not how it works.
It's great.
Yes.
No, mine was a comboof all the things.
It was delayed.
It was in the moment I neededto say, I don't know, but
something I'll be back.
And then coming back.
(48:27):
It, the coming back tome is the important part.
That's everything!
That's everything and don'tsay let's come back and talk
about this and three yearsfrom now the person is like
how can we never wait Becausethat's been where the, the,
the person is, it fills in, youtalk about childhood stuff, you
talk about attachment stuff.
People fill in that withabandonment and rejection
and like all of that stuffgets, gets projected and then
(48:50):
you're like, why are theycrying in staff meetings?
That's why.
And it's not someone's job tonavigate their childhood stuff.
But to recognize that as aleader, going back full circle,
as a leader, you can navigatesome of this by simply self
regulating and, and on thefront end, if you need time,
saying you need time, and thenmaking sure that you circle
(49:12):
back on the back end so that youare responsive, not reactive.
Yes, yes.
Let's keep actually going withthis because I was thinking
a good place to wrap up ison the tangible things that
people can be doing, thatwhite leaders can be doing,
and honestly, if you're nota white leader, and this is
you, you could do this too,which is that regulating part.
I've been really encouragingpeople, once you regulate,
(49:35):
also explore the placesthat you're going to.
I've been helping people,like, where are you going and
what are you responding from?
Because if you can address thatorigin point, you won't have to
keep getting in the same place.
Your responses willstart to reduce.
I don't think that the originsmay go anywhere, but our
(49:59):
reactivity to them can changeif we know what they are.
The, the language, the languagethat, sorry to interrupt you,
no, you go ahead.
The the language that mywork partner and I talk
about all the time is tobe aware of your defaults.
And, and all of usdefault somewhere, right?
Some people default to,like I, I default to humor.
(50:23):
I make jokes inappropriately,like all the time.
Some people default to theyget mad and they challenge.
Some people default tosilence and disconnection.
Like everybodydefaults somewhere.
And listen, this is a big deal.
Figure out like you're toyour point, figure out where
you default, because when youdefault, you are no longer
present and you can't do
(50:44):
any of this work, ifyou are not present.
If your default is avoidance, ifyour default is disconnection,
if your default is getting onyour phone, everybody has one.
And to your point, if you don'tknow that, then you are going
to miss when you check out.
And that, and that adds tothe, to the, to the comp, to
the problem, cause it createsjust more, room for narrative
(51:05):
and, and hurt feelings.
Yeah.
Yes.
I think there could beanother layer to that too.
And that feels likethe therapist y part.
And I don't by any means dotherapy with people, but I am
asking people to be curiousabout like, so your default
is this behavior, but what isit actually activating in you?
So for me, very tangibly,I'll have these responses,
(51:27):
but if I have an experienceand it just funnels down to
that like childhood experienceof you're not important,
I don't like that feeling.
And then it makes medo these behaviors.
But just because thataction happened doesn't
mean I'm not important.
So then I got to speakto little Charmaine.
Girl, you're important.
It's fine.
You regulate.
And then you're present here.
(51:47):
It's, that takes a while.
And so I won't, I won't sithere and do therapy with people,
but I ask them to be curiousabout there's something else in
What's driving that?
What's, what's thefunction of that,
Yes.
Yes.
Some people know what it is.
And it's great.
We can actually work with thatbecause that's what's, that's
who's showing up over here andthat's who you can speak to so
(52:08):
that you can stay connected.
And if you don'tknow, That's okay too.
You could still regulate, becurious about these behaviors.
There's levels to theunderstanding, I think
is what I'm saying.
So tangibly, yes, thenervous system stuff, the
regulating, the defaults.
And if you really wantto go deep, go in there
(52:28):
with those narratives.
What are the things thatyou're saying to yourself?
And what do you need to sayto yourself in that moment
so you can be present ortake care of yourself?
Are there any other thingsthat we would tangibly
say to white leaders?
Mm.
I would say make sure thatyour team, that your team has,
people that you've identifiedas accountability partners.
(52:51):
And so if you have a crewof people that you feel safe
with, that's fine, but, butif they've been your crew
for five years, and, and thishas not ever come up, then
you need to pick some peoplewho can, a person, who can be
your accountability partner.
An accountability partneris someone who you decide
together, you agree to be, andit can't be one way, right?
(53:14):
This is a reciprocalrelationship.
So where you decidetogether to be honest and
transparent with each otherabout all these things.
And it doesn't have to be forproblems, but you can go to your
accountability partner and say,this exchange happened and, and
I want to send an email saying,F you and I hate all of you.
And what do I do?
(53:34):
And the accountabilitypartner is going to be
like, you need to pause.
You need to pause, right?
Or the accountability partnerwill say, what, what are
you doing to self regulate?
My accountability partner, Idon't even have to text him.
I text him all the time.
And he'll be like, youneed to not move, right?
You need to stop.
Don't, no emails, no email.
And I will frequentlybe like, how about now?
And he's no.
(53:55):
How about
now?
And
minutes.
No.
When you stop asking, maybe,But, but, but what we have
learned in our relationshipis that he only needs a day.
I need three days,because it takes me that
long to self regulate.
But, but I've learned from this.
And accountability partnerswill say, you're, you're, no,
you're missing some things.
The accountability partner,I want to be very clear, it's
(54:18):
not their job to educate.
They're not going to be like,let me, because we can Google.
You can find everythingyou need on Google.
I don't need to tellyou about the, the
transatlantic slave trade.
I don't need to tell you about,the history of Palestine.
I don't need to do any of that.
But, but, but what I do needto do is tell you what you're
not seeing about yourself.
So accountabilitypartnerships are important.
I think the other is thatwhite leaderships often
(54:40):
have, leadership oftenhas tons of resources
that they refuse to use.
Right.
And so like, right.
So you, you, you got, yougot your board, you got your
people, you got your, andmaybe you don't want to go
to people that like, are,you don't want them to see
that, you're making mistakes.
But like you got this personand you got a therapist and you
(55:02):
got a coach and you got, whyaren't you using the resources?
So I think it's worthtaking stock of who your
resources are and using them.
yeah, yes, yep,
I think the other thing I wouldsay is that a big part of
(55:23):
quarterbacking is, is reallybeing clear, first of all,
that you are the quarterback.
yeah,
You gotta own it.
You're, you're nota wide receiver.
You're not, you're not,you're not a defensive end.
You, I don't evenknow what that is.
You are the quarterback,the last one, I know what
that
You extended beyondyour acknowledgement
(55:44):
of,
I was like, let mejust pull it back.
I know what a wide receiver is.
Stop talking, Wendy.
Accept that you are thequarterback and, and that you
have, that you have to touchthe ball and that you are, that
you have impact and influence.
And, and so what that meansis that if you don't have
certain skills, you need tolearn them, then you have
responsibility to learn them.
But what it also means is thatwhen you don't know what else
to do, it is your job to groundyourself and the people around
(56:08):
you in the mission and thevalues of the work you're doing.
That will be incredibly helpfulin figuring out how to do this.
You don't have to haveall the answers, but you
can ground yourself andwhat are we doing here?
What is our job?
What is our value system?
What do our, whatis our mission?
That will at least give yousome room to pause and get
(56:29):
yourself regulated until then.
Yes, yes, yep, I feel likeThe term coming to mind is
using that power responsibly,quarterbacking responsibly.
There's a way to do that.
Sometimes people like that typeof terminology, like if you
want to feel good about it.
You are the quarterback,no matter what.
(56:49):
There's nothing you'regoing to do to change that.
Unless you quit, then you won'tbe a quarterback and then,
okay, another one will come.
The only way you're not aquarterback is if you quit.
So you can use that responsibly.
There are ways to do that.
yeah, I,
You know what, it's funny.
I don't love football,but I have to watch it
because my husband likes it.
(57:11):
And my favorite positionin football is the kicker.
It's my favorite position.
And I have always said that if Iplayed football, which obviously
I do not, I would be the kicker.
Because it seems likethe best position, right?
Like you sit on the bench untilsomeone needs you to kick and
then you go out there and youkick and then you sit back down.
That's it.
And sometimes people like,we'll rush the kicker or
whatever, but rarely, like it'ssuch a, but, but the kicker
(57:33):
has such a responsibility.
Like
know, that soundsa little intense.
it's so cool.
It's clutch.
But, but, but the kicker isthe oftentimes when, when the
quarterback can't get, can't getto the end, they can't score, it
will be the kicker that does it.
But that is the exceptionrather than the rule.
really, the quarterback isthe one, despite my love for
the kicker, the quarterbackis the one who does most
(57:56):
of the handling and gets,and scoring, it gets, it
gets, throws to the score.
If you're gonna do that,you really do have to own
it, and you have to figureout what your philosophy
around quarterbacking is.
and you have to really, to yourpoint earlier, Really shine a
light, illuminate the thingsthat you are struggling with,
(58:17):
because just like anything,you got to work on you.
That is accountability.
yes.
Oh my goodness.
Yes.
All right.
Well, I think this isa good place to stop.
I, we talked aboutso many things.
I am,
many things.
I'm looking forwardto watching it again.
And because there'ssome stuff in there that
I know I just pinned.
(58:38):
I thank you for a reallygreat conversation.
Things that were, reallygreat gems for leaders, white
leaders, things that they'rethinking and feeling and doing.
And lots of ways to mitigateor unpack and move into
action, understand self better.
(59:00):
There's so much in thereand I thank you for that.
More of this is needed.
If
It's awesome.
I think it's hardfor people to hear.
And I, and I, I don't know thatuntil this, this time period,
people were even willing tohave these conversations.
So I'm super excited thatyou, not only you invited
me, but that you areinterested and open in, in
(59:22):
navigating this discourse.
Yes, absolutely.
If people want to get intouch with you, what's
the best way to do that?
They can, they, well, if theywant to see what I'm doing,
if they want to read any of myarticles, if they're interested
in me, they can go to mywebsite, which is drwendyashley.
com or wendyashley.
com, because I just addedthat fun domain name.
(59:43):
Or they can email me at, andmy, and my email information
is on there, but it'sdrwendyashley at gmail.
com,
Oh, perfect.
Perfect.
Yes,
I'm not taking any clientsright now, but they can
get in touch with me
anyway.
But you can look and see what'sgoing on and you could say hi.
I have an Instagram too.
I met Dr.
Wendy Ashley on, onG, on on Instagram as
Perfect.
(01:00:03):
If I'm not followingyou, I definitely will.
Like today.
Why?
Why?
Why aren't wefollowing each other?
What's that
about
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
I'm just trying to getin this marketing game.
So I'll just, I'll be around.
okay.
If you need to get in touch withme, you can visit our website
at livingunapologetically.
com.
Email handles are all on there.
You have accessto free resources.
(01:00:24):
Shout out to guided meditationsgiven to today's discussion.
My book's on there.
Bias-Conscious Leadership: A Framework for Leading with (01:00:30):
undefined
Action and Accountability.
If this was interesting toyou, please share for sure,
have conversations with people,talk to people in your network,
challenge each other, supporteach other through the content
that we're talking about.
I think that's it.
I hope to hear from you soonand until next time, bye.
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