November 7, 2023 • 60 mins
In this episode of the Living Out Loud podcast, I sit down with Bryce Ezrre to explore messages and behaviors she’s personally experiences in the social work industry. It was an honest discussion where she openly shares her responses to real situations, which includes internal narratives that didn’t serve her well. Our hope is that we normalize how real, hard, and necessary it is to do deeper work, especially as it relates to unpacking privilege for the purpose of improving relationships with others. Check it out!
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To get in touch with Bryce Ezrre, you can contact her here:
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Email: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryce-ezrre-6761b2109/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It doesn't matter how muchinformation that I get
(00:04):
about power and privilege.
I am always going to be awhite social worker, right?
Like I'm alwaysgoing to be white.
I'm not, I cannot getrid of my privilege by
understanding it enough.
We are in another episodeof the Living Out Loud
Discussion Series.
Today we are going to beexploring messages and
behaviors of a white socialworker who's going to let
(00:24):
us unpack her experience.
My name is Charmaine Utz,Relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areopenly unpacking real life
scenarios and issues that comeup in professional settings.
In every single episode, we havea goal to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our interactionswith each other so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
(00:45):
equity, and inclusion.
Now, as always, the thoughts,views, and opinions that
are shared in today'sconversation, they are my own
and not as representative ofany of the agencies that I
work for or I'm employed by.
(01:13):
Thank you Bryce fordoing this with me.
I am really looking forward toour conversation and I don't
even know what the best titlefor this is other than exploring
the messages and behaviorsof a white social worker.
Even though you are new to yourMSW, that doesn't mean that
you are new to social work.
(01:34):
So I met you student in myclass this past semester
and we had some reallyinteresting interactions.
And I remember and I told youthis - that your process of
introspection and then abilityto share out with people was
(01:54):
done in such a way that Ihadn't necessarily seen before.
And I felt like it could be veryhelpful for people to hear it.
Not that you know all thethings it's just your process
is really interesting andthe way you communicate
it is interesting too.
But before we get into that,I just want to give you an
opportunity to take somespace, share who you are,
(02:15):
what you're doing and whateveryou feel is important to you.
Yeah, I'm also reallyexcited to be recording this.
Mostly because I think that it'simportant for people to talk
about their experiences walkingthrough some of these things.
And I'm glad that Ican share about it and
hopefully it's helpful.
I just graduated with my MSW, asyou know, from Dominguez Hills.
(02:37):
And our program is reallyspecial in a way that it's
centered around criticalrace theory, which I found
so incredibly importantin my experience as a
white social worker.
And I've been doing social work.
My gosh, like how do wecategorize social work, right?
Human services.
It's like such a breadthof work, but for quite
(02:59):
a number of years.
And I worked initially withadults on the on different
spectrums of neurodivergencethat needed support in
vocational training.
And I started working withfolks and I started seeing the
impact of systems, folks thatwere plugged into like regional
centers and having caseworkersand the families trying to
(03:22):
work within the system withoutknowing all of the information.
And I just became reallycurious and really
frustrated at the same time.
And there was this part of methat has always been really
frustrated with why thingsare made so difficult for
folks that need more support.
And I started to developthis curiosity of, what
(03:42):
can I do in those spaces?
And, I was a returncollege student.
I think that's also important toshare for folks who maybe don't
know yet what they want to do,where they're moving, or they're
recently coming into socialwork from a different angle
or a different point in life.
And I went back to collegeafter dropping out horribly.
(04:04):
And I spent a lot of timein school, working and
being in school and kindof taking things slowly.
And during that time, Iworked at a shelter with folks
experiencing homelessness, folksthat were unhoused, and I got to
see, so many different facets of
the human experience of beingunhoused and why folks are
in that space of needingmore support the things
(04:27):
that folks bring in withthem in that space and how
little support there was.
During that time, I was workingas a housing coordinator
and I would have these folkscome in and we worked under
a housing 1st model, whichI really like, which is- if
you are able to help somebodyfind stable housing, they're
more likely to be able toget support for other things,
(04:49):
substance use disorder, mentalhealth, these different areas.
But again, like finding myselffeeling really frustrated of why
can't we find ways to connectfolks to these resources sooner
and then folks, their ownindividual barriers of getting
connected and like wanting more.
So when I ended upgetting my MSW, it's...
It's a big, so many thingssocial workers can do, right?
(05:13):
And it was like this spaceof I'm just somebody that
really loves connectingwith people, but also feels
like that's not enough.
I think that's not enough.
And, so I know that's like areally long way of explaining
who I am, but I think socialwork has become so deeply
embedded in the things that Ido in the spaces that I enter.
I'm also theselike other things.
(05:34):
I'm a mentor to women.
That's a really bigpart of my life.
And I'm a fitness coach, whichis like a weird thing I never
really expected to become, butit's like this area where I'm
like, I just really love likeconnection and helping folks
realize their power and kind of
breaking down these ideas ofwhat it means to be healthy
and well and finding andhave your own path to just
(05:56):
moving in your body becauseour bodies carry so much.
And all of these things puttogether, create this space
of just like exploration.
And I really, if I wasto define myself as
something, it's an explorer.
That's a really longexplanation, but it's
a little bit about me.
Thank you so much forsharing all of that.
(06:18):
I am really looking forwardto getting into our convo.
And I think a good place tostart is our first encounter
because I think it likehighlights this interaction
that we've been talking about.
And I, from my perspective,remember, I don't know if
it was the first or secondday, it might've been the
(06:39):
first, but one of the firstdays of class you came up to
me to ask me some questions.
And I remember, Oh my gosh,what was the question?
You wanted to know one about theamount of time that you talk.
Are you talking too much?
Or too little, are youtaking up too much space as a
white person in a classroom?
(07:01):
And that filtered intoquestions about what you
were not doing with a client.
And I was just, I justremember thinking, oh
goodness, that on the firstor second day of class,
this is really interesting.
And you were justso receptive to it.
I wanted to start thereand just ask like from your
perspective, what was happeningand let's just see that.
(07:25):
Yeah, I am giggling to myself,remembering the energy with
which I, it was like a bull.
Like I was like, I need help.
And I don't know what it wasspecifically about the way,
it was our first day of class.
It was the firsttime I had met you.
It was the first timethat I'd had a one on one
conversation with you.
(07:46):
But there wassomething about the way
you moved through the roomthat I felt this is a person I
can ask these questions with.
And I also think I wasready to be receptive.
And I think there was likea journey before that,
which I will probably end uptalking about as well as we
(08:07):
unpack some of this stuff.
But by the time I got toyour classroom, I was in my
second year of the socialwork program, entirely based
on critical race theory.
And what I love about DominguezHills is they really focus
on integrating that into thecurriculum at all levels,
which I got continued exposure.
Like the tenets of criticalrace theory, what that
(08:29):
looks like in my life.
But I also was one of very fewwhite students in the program.
So I was getting allof this information
and I was experiencingfragility, which I didn't know
that's what it was at the time.
I think what I didn't talk aboutin my intro as much because
it's more about my life andthe places that I've lived, but
(08:50):
I hadn't, I didn't grow up ina lot of spaces where we were
talking about privilege, right?
Or I was talking aboutwhat it was to be a
white person in America.
And I lived in New York andI lived in areas that were
diverse in their nature.
And I thought all ofthese things of, I'm a
social justice person.
That's something that Ibelieve in, but I had never
(09:12):
taken a look at, my owninternalized stuff or the
way I grew up or the way that
my whiteness affected others.
And so I'm getting all ofthis information, and I don't
know this discomfort andthis feeling like this yucky.
That's what it felt like.
It felt like I am just agarbage person, which I wish
I had different language, butthat's really how it felt.
(09:33):
And I felt so ignorant, likeI had never felt before.
And I was sitting in thisspace and unpacking all of
this stuff, but alone, becauseI didn't feel, for whatever
reason, I didn't feel likeI could just like openly, I
don't know if it was like,put that on my classmates or
that I was, I think there'salso this part of me that was
(09:55):
scared to let others know howignorant I realized I was.
But when I came into your class,you made this space up and
you had said something, and Idon't even know if it was that
first day, but about, yes, wehave privilege, but like, how
are you going to use it to it
be a social justice individual,to be a social worker.
(10:16):
And it, hit me that Iwas like, I know nothing.
And this person knows somethingand maybe I can ask her.
And we had thisconversation about taking
space and making space.
And we'd been havingthat conversation
in classrooms a lot.
And I was like, I don'tknow how to do that.
Because even in my makingspace, it was about me.
(10:39):
It was about like, Oh, I wantto like, step back and make
space because I don't want themto think that I'm taking space.
I don't want them to think thatI'm being that person, right?
Like, they're
It's
not for them.
It's still about, I don'twant to be that person.
And I was like,so stuck in that.
And I remember I asked theclass, can you support me
(11:00):
in not taking so much space.
And I didn't know, I didn'teven have the language to
know what I was asking for.
And so I came to youand I was like, I don't
know what I'm doing.
I'm experiencing these things.
I know that they're important.
What do I do with them?
And it opened up thisconversation where I wanted to
(11:20):
talk about how I was practicingcritical race or how I was
applying critical race theoryas a white social worker with
my clients that were fromdifferent backgrounds and
had different experiences.
And what I shared with you wasthat I wasn't broaching the
topic of race with my clients.
(11:43):
For some reason thatfelt so scary to me.
And I remember what I saidto you is I'm scared that
as soon as I say, I'm awhite social worker, they're
going to go, I knew it.
They're going to be like,I don't want anything like,
and you were so gracious andjust like honest and strong
with me about the fact that.
They know, right?
(12:03):
Like it's already a thing.
And that I, not only being inthe position of, at that time
I was practicing therapy at apredominantly white institution.
So my, my, students thatwere coming in that were not
identifying as white werealready in a space where they
were feeling minoritized.
(12:24):
And my cat's sneezing eight
I'm going to just kindof interject then from
what you were saying.
There's two things coming upfor me as you're sharing that.
One is what my perspectivewas in what it continues to
be when I'm a person of color,a black woman teaching other
people, especially white people.
(12:45):
And then the other issomething that we probably
should have talked about atthe beginning was how do we
have this conversation in away that honors your process,
but doesn't feel like, Oh,look at this wonderful white
person who, and I don't evenhave the right words, but
you know what I'm saying?
(13:05):
How do we do it in a waythat doesn't feel like praise
for a necessary struggle?
Although I want to honor thefact that you're doing the work.
So I don't even know how tophrase it other than that.
I'm sure there are betterwords, but you know
what I'm talking about?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's this idea andI look at it as a really broad
(13:30):
thing of like possessiveness.
And that there are folks maybewho can identify with this
feeling that I was reflectingon, there's something to own
and, like, I did it and I'veaccomplished this thing or, it's
not this thing of look at thisperson who's, accomplished this.
Because that's not youdon't accomplish it.
(13:50):
I'm never I am nevergoing to be done.
Right?
So it's not even a lookat this person who did it.
Because I don't feel that way.
It's actually the work is-Hey, do you realize that
you don't know and youwill never stop learning.
And so I don't know how, likeyou said, like you don't know
what the words are to makesure that people know this
(14:12):
isn't Oh, Hey, look, I did it.
Like I know what it is orI know the perfect way to
be a white social worker.
That's not a thing.
It's going to bedifferent for everyone.
And it continues.
I will never.
I will never understand theexperience of another person
who doesn't have the privilegethat I do when I enter a room.
(14:35):
Everybody's is goingto be different.
And if I'm not, if Ialready think oh, I got it.
I know how to be thewhite social worker.
So I know how to enterthis space with humility.
That's actually not givingthe other person the
experience to let me knowwhat it means for them.
Right?
There's like, so I think thebig thing, is it's not like, oh,
praise for an accomplishment.
(14:56):
Oh, I was a decent, Iwas a decent human being.
I have some humility.
Yes.
Okay.
I like that.
That feels good.
We'll use that as the framingbecause I, the other part
too is I am somebody, I ama person of color, a woman
of color who, is in a lotof spaces of teaching and
(15:17):
growing and developing people.
And a lot of thosepeople are white people.
And it's interesting becauseit also comes with this
experience of, well, I don'talways want to do that.
I don't for lots ofdifferent reasons.
So I try to pick and choosewhen I do go into spaces,
(15:39):
knowing that everybody's I tolearn something, hopefully.
And if someone's coming tome, I have already positioned
myself as someone who'sthere to help people learn.
So be it in a classroom likewe were or an organization
or anything like that.
I frequently have to weigh, doI want to do this today or not?
(15:59):
And, I am a person- there'spart of my privilege
and power in this spacethat is here to teach.
So I have to do that a lot.
Now, I remember that day andI was completely fine, but it
is a thing, like how much ofthis is mine to teach a person.
So when you come up tome as a white student
and you're like, help me.
(16:19):
I don't know all thethings, like what do I do?
Like my first frame is, doyou want to do this today?
Yeah.
Do you want to do it?
Do you have thecapacity to do it?
What can you tell this person sothat you're not giving all the
answers, but you're walking themthrough to sort out whatever it
is they're experiencing, whichis a lot of work on my part.
(16:41):
So I'm constantlybouncing if I want to.
And then what's myresponsibility as the
person who's chosen to bethe teacher in this space.
So that's something that wasreal when we were meeting,
and I was completely fineto be there with you.
And your response to me,it wasn't like I was just
pulling it out of you.
(17:01):
I have found that sometimespeople, from that space that
you were talking about- I don'tknow anything this person does,
wants to go to the person thatdoes, and tell me everything
I need to know so that Ican do it right over there.
It wasn't like that.
So I think that's, to me,a really good indicator of
someone wanting to grow.
(17:23):
Going for help, asking for allthe answers to do different
versus going for help, knowingthat you'll be taken through
your own, you figure itout what's happening here.
So you decide what to do isa very different process.
And I remember wegot to do that and I
appreciated that about you.
You did that a lot.
So I just wanted toacknowledge that.
(17:44):
Thank you.
And it had me thinkingtoo, it's really important
to say it is not folks ofcolor's responsibility to
teach white people how towalk through this process.
And because when I hearyou saying that, it's true,
I, I couldn't go to peopleand say, help me with
(18:05):
this thing that is like myresponsibility to confront.
And yes, asking questions,but yeah, not putting it on
you of you need to give methe answers to fix, right?
Or finish or do it right.
I think that all ofthat is built into the
experience of privilege.
Wanting to own it, wantingto fix it, wanting to,
it's, and it's not fair toput that on somebody else.
(18:26):
But that's a hard space becauseit's also like really lonely.
I think I shared with you,I'd asked somebody for help
and they were like, or I hadthis idea in my head that the
response they gave me was like,read White Fragility, right?
I was like, okay, like Ican read this book and I
can learn these things.
And maybe at the time they gaveme more, but I wasn't receptive.
I can't remember.
I like looked it up andall I found was this book.
(18:46):
But I just rememberfeeling like.
This is all I have.
And it's not true.
There's a lot of resources outthere of where folks can go and
talk and using those resources.
And I think also what yousaid to me too, or what you're
saying right now has me thinkingI could have also asked.
Hey, do you have the capacityto talk to me about some of
(19:07):
these things that are coming up?
And I think that's when Ireflect back on what I maybe was
still learning then is to ask.
Hey, this stuff isbringing up stuff for me.
Are you the person Ican ask about this?
Do you have the space for that?
If not, do you haveany suggestions for me?
No, that's cool.
Not your responsibility.
(19:28):
I would have like, thatI would love not just
thinking back on that onescenario, being asked that.
That's a question I think,my friends and I, we do with
each other just in general.
When we hit eachother up for stuff.
Do you have the capacityto hear or for me to,
because we understandbandwidth and capacity.
(19:49):
So when you just said that,I thought to myself, just
all of the scenarios flashedbefore my eyes of people
coming to me for stuff.
And I thought, well, howwonderful would that be
if people asked me if Ihave the capacity first.
It's just when you're aperson, when you're DEI
lady, and I happen to be thatlady, no matter where I'm at.
(20:11):
So when you're that person,people are just drawn.
Let me go to this personto get the answers
that I've been seeking.
I don't have all the answers,but that's just how it feels.
So I was just, I just had awhole visceral response when
you said, what if I asked?
I thought, wow,that'd be amazing.
(20:32):
That would be so great!
Yes.
Yes.
Oh my goodness.
And then, see, nowyou got me thinking.
It also, because of thishistorically, and then my
experience, so historicallyfor Black women in professional
settings, which is also mylived experience, this idea of
(20:53):
having to work really hard anddo all the things and be super
knowledgeable in order to beseen as equal, I don't know if
better is a thing, but equal asother people doing less work.
When anyone comes to you,another thing that I will do is-
well, let me do this so Ican do a good job even if I
don't have the capacity to,I also make a decision to
(21:16):
serve too much from a placeof internalized oppression.
I have to pay a lotof attention to that.
So there's a lot going on insomeone like you to come to me
and then there's so much goingon with me having to respond,
deciding to respond and how.
So it's just interestingto have this dialogue that
I just literally talkingout loud realizing stuff.
(21:38):
Yeah,
Yes.
has me thinking too.
It's I just, it has likemy juices flowing, right?
Yeah.
No.
I don't know if folks frompositions of power and
privilege and whiteness takethat into consideration.
Not very much.
No.
Because it'suncomfortable, and...
(21:59):
There's that ownership thatI was sharing about of like,
it's about how I feel thatI'm uncomfortable, fix it.
Not taking into considerationwhat anybody else is
feeling, the space thatthey're coming from.
Am I putting this person in aposition where they're going
to feel obligated or basedon their experience, it's
going to bring something up inthem that isn't serving them.
(22:21):
Maybe, am I even asking?
Am I even considering?
Or is it about me?
Right.
Cause that's a, it's always,it's always, well, I want,
I need, I deserve, why?
Yeah.
And it's so hard forme to look at why.
Oh, that's my privilege.
I wanted to cuss, butIt's there it is again.
And I think when we lookat like continuing the work
(22:44):
is, it's really easy tojust not look at that stuff.
It is really easy tojust, whatever, I'm going
to keep moving throughthe world in this way.
But it's a really selfish thingto do to just continue to move
through the world in that way.
So that's what it hadme thinking about.
(23:05):
You had said something earlierthat I just want to know if
you can expand on a little bitand you it was like a window
into what you were being taughtas a white social worker.
It's not even necessarilya social worker.
But you were talking aboutthe white fragility book and
I remember you were tellingme a story before that the
sense of- And I know todayyou said something a little
(23:26):
different than before soit's okay, but i'm like it's
the book of white fragility.
I remember you saying allI really got was this book.
And people said, do thisand you're good to go.
And you were like, what?
this is it.
So I, if you can just givea little bit more window
into what that's like.
What are you taught?
(23:46):
Are there, is there supportfor growth in this area as
a white social worker sothat it isn't necessarily
something that you are lookingfor people of color for?
I'm just so curious about that.
Yeah, so I want to saytoo, there probably are
(24:08):
resources out there thatI don't know about yet.
So if you're a white socialworker, if you're wanting to
explore some of this stuff andI don't mention a resource that
you found really valuable andthere are things out there, I'm
not saying they don't exist.
I just didn't look for them orI didn't find them at the time.
But yeah, I felt like I justhad this book written by
this white lady about thesefeelings that I was gonna have.
(24:32):
And then I had read up on thebook and there was like some
conversations about that bookessentially wasn't enough.
And I didn't know, I,I just was so lost.
It's really the best way thatI know how to describe it.
And I had heard aboutdifferent spaces and programs
(24:52):
where there's, like whitepeople for Black lives.
There are differentorganizations of folks having
these conversations aboutwhat it is to be white and
to support folks of color.
I still didn't feel like Ihad enough understanding of
my own privilege and whitenessand I didn't feel like I had
looked at enough in myselfto even enter those spaces.
(25:13):
And I also felt like I didn'twant to go into, I don't know
really how to describe it,but it was like, I didn't
want to go talk to other whitepeople about being white.
And I know that kind of soundsstrange, but that was just
what I was experiencing.
I was like, I think I'vetalked a lot about that.
(25:36):
What would it be likeif I just listened?
What would it be like if Istopped trying to like I said
before, like complete something?
Like all of that was driven in,if I know more, I'll be better.
Instead of, I don'tknow anything.
And so I got White Fragility.
I got this book, WhiteSupremacy and Me, and
(25:56):
it had these differentwriting activities in it.
And I started to look atthis stuff and these feelings
that I was experiencing.
And I started to look atmy experience in classrooms
that were predominantly folksof color, where I started
to feel like I had to mask.
And I didn't want to sayanything cause I didn't
want people to know that Ididn't know anything, but
(26:17):
I also knew I didn't knowanything and I wanted them
to think I knew something.
And so I just startedlike masking and
retreating into self.
And it was really, yeah.
And in terms of like resourcesas I had to start being
okay with that experienceof not knowing, like I had
to start being okay withthis is not something that
(26:38):
I'm going to accomplishreading a book, right?
This is my entire life, Ihave been in a position of
privilege and I have neverturned around and looked
at what that is, right?
I have never been in aspace where I was asked
to look at my whiteness.
And I'm not just goingto read a book and know
(26:59):
everything about what that is.
I have to bewilling to not know.
And I started coming into spaceswith that perspective of I don't
know, what is this feeling?
Where is that coming from?
What am I assuming about whatpeople are thinking about me?
And oh my God, Ihave no tolerance for
being uncomfortable.
Oh my gosh, I have notolerance for being a minority
(27:22):
in a quantitative way.
Of being like, I was like,oh, this is, wow, this is what
folks experience really often.
The mi the most minor fractionof that and I can't stand it.
And I wanna hide.
And I had to start writingwhat was coming up for me and
Wait, hold on.
(27:42):
I will pause right there.
I am so curious.
from your place of knowing, theretreating, and the not knowing,
and I'm curious about how thistranslates to your behavior.
And I really wish I remembered.
You just said the word.
I cannot believe.
I can't remember it.
(28:03):
I had no tolerance.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay.
So the no tolerance spaces.
Do you have a sense of, doyou have a sense of what
that looks like behaviorallywith other people?
And if you do, Yes.
Do you or not?
Do
Yeah.
Okay.
(28:23):
Then share what thatis, but also share how
you knew what it was.
Yeah.
So, and I will say this is,this is hard to share because
I wish it wasn't true thatmy behavior, I guess my
feelings, I don't know howmuch it translated into my
behavior, but I felt defensive.
(28:43):
I felt angry.
I think the way thattranslated into my behavior
is I was so closed off.
So I stopped reachingout to my peers.
And so I became very lonelyin a program that I didn't
need to feel lonely in.
My cohort mates would gohave lunch together and they
would, like, it actually-I feel like I missed out
(29:04):
on a lot of opportunitiesof connection because I
was, I totally retreated.
And my behavior was like,I didn't want to engage in
conversations because I didn'tknow how to take space, not take
space, talk about these things,and I didn't know how to be
helpful, harmful, contribute.
And so I just stopped engaging.
And when I would be inclassrooms, I would come in
(29:27):
early, I would sit by myself.
I wouldn't talk to folks,I wouldn't raise my hand as
often, which, if anybody knowsme, and maybe are getting a
sense here, I'm pretty, like,lively, and unhinged, and
weird, and wooey, and it'svery obvious when I'm not.
And all of a sudden Iwas becoming so isolated.
(29:48):
And the way that I, you askedthis question of like, how did I
start to identify that behavior?
Is that what you asked?
Yeah.
Like how do you know?
How did you come to knowthat's what you were doing?
I think I knew that theanger and the defensiveness
wasn't actually prompted byanything that was happening
(30:11):
on the outside world.
Like nobody was actuallydoing anything to me.
And
Hmm.
I remember that I was,yeah, it was just all this
perception that I was having.
I'm getting like warm thinkingabout it because it was,
I think about so many folkswho maybe get stuck in that
(30:31):
space of angry and defensiveand then it turns into this
flipping over of privilege isn'treal, or I earned my keep, or
how dare you challenge thesethings in me, or I have a right
to have these conversations.
(30:51):
And I found myself looking forother ways where I'm not in
positions of privilege to- Oh,I know what it's like, right?
Like I was raised by queermoms or like I identify as a
queer person or, I'm a womanand those things are true.
And those things are validand those are positions
where I'm not entirelyholding power and privilege.
However, those are entirelydifferent from my identity
(31:14):
as a white social worker.
You know what I mean?
I just didn't wantto look at it.
And so I think I get alittle bit like a little
emotional thinking.
If you are stuck there,I hope you can start to
notice if you're, like,hearing these things of,
I'm also experiencing it.
Not you specifically,of course, listeners.
I'm experiencing thisfeeling of, defensiveness
and aggression.
There was somethingthere for me.
(31:36):
And what ended up happeningis I was in a group project.
I'll share this kind of briefly.
And it was, interactive and,it was talked very openly about
me being a white social worker.
And it was really calledout the way that I affected
others by not lookingat how I'm taking space.
(31:59):
And I left feeling so angryand betrayed and defensive
because I had never hadit, openly called out.
I'd been doing thiswork internally.
I'd been having these thoughtsof maybe I'm ignorant, maybe
I don't know these things.
And then I had folks going,do you know that that is
also you, perpetuating?
Do you know that that is alsoyou being in that position?
And these folks thatare just calling it out.
(32:21):
And I am like, how dare theymake me so uncomfortable.
And so I was like, this is not,this is not resonating with me.
And I ended up doingsome writing about the
fear that I was having.
Why is this?
Why am I so angry and defensive?
What am I so scared of?
(32:43):
And I was really scared thatbecause I was a white social
worker, I was never going tobe able to actually help folks
that were from different spaces.
That that my power andprivilege separated me
in a way that wasn't, Iwasn't able to be helpful.
But it was like that angerand that defensiveness that
I had to sit with and togo, that's not my nature.
(33:07):
That's not who I am.
These people are lovely.
I really want to befriends with them.
I really want to connect.
And I had to sit in thatand go, what is that?
Because it's not them.
It's not these conversations.
It's in me.
Yeah,
Yes, yes.
You have said multiplethings that have me
(33:30):
thinking lots of things.
This happens a lot.
So I'm like, whichdirection to go?
A little while back you weretalking about the places
that you went, behaviorally.
So it was the defensiveness,the anger, and then even the
interesting, like associatingwith a piece of oppression
(33:52):
here so that you look, I knowwhat it's like too, to get
away from this introspectionthat you're talking about, the
avoidance of the introspection.
And that process, thatfeeling in that process and
being able to go through thatcontinuously, because it's a
(34:14):
continuous thing, being able togo through that is important,
or you do get stuck there.
People get stuck there.
And when you're stuck there, youget stuck in the ration- there's
so many good rationalizationthingies going on.
It can make all the sense.
I say this from, you had said,not you, but why, I'm like, I
(34:36):
have done, still do, I have tobe very aware of me doing the
same thing, for lots of reasons.
So I...
know this process as well.
I have had to dealwith it and still do.
So I don't want toseparate myself like,
yeah, y'all over there.
It's me too.
I think it's a littledifferent, a lot different
(34:57):
between you and I, butthere are some similarities
that I can understand thestuckness and the struggle.
But I felt when you werelike, don't get stuck.
Don't get stuck there.
Like I felt that and I'veseen people so stuck.
I've seen people really strugglethrough it and come out on
the other end of knowing thatthat's just part of it and I
(35:18):
can build the capacity for it.
And then I've seenpeople justified
in the rationalization thatthey came up with or the
multiple ones that they cameup with to stay distanced from
really understanding themselvesand the things that they do.
So that was likereally interesting.
And, when you were talking aboutseparateness, I'm like, there's
(35:42):
always, there's a separatenessin general from maybe not
understanding or having thesame life experiences, but
there's a separateness frompeople, a disconnection from
relationships and communitywhen you're literally cutting
off that part of yourself andnot doing the introspection.
Because what you're describing,the defensiveness and the anger
and the moving away from istruly disconnection from what's
(36:06):
happening in the self, thereforeunable to connect with others.
Which is why like in the workthat I do or the work that
me and the consultants doat Living Unapologetically
is really trying to helppeople be right here in this.
What is all of this going on?
How can we help you be here andsort this out so that you can be
(36:29):
with others and understand them?
And what I'm hearing you say isone, I don't know everything.
I don't got thisshit figured out.
But I have figured out, Idefinitely have had internal
stuff I have rationalized my wayaway from, and that didn't help.
So now, did you ever get toa point where, was there any
(36:52):
catalyst moment or any thingswhere you realized, okay,
this isn't working for me?
This anger, this distancy stuff,this blame, defensiveness,
did you ever get outof that and if so, how?
What happened?
Yeah, so I lost an AirPod.
Please
That's...
Go...
Hahaha!
(37:13):
I'm back.
Hahaha!
Oh, gosh.
So I
Alrighty, there were justthings that you said that
inspired so much in me.
So I'm trying to,
You can reply to thosetoo, there's no rules here.
yeah, I was thinking about,gosh, first of all, how
(37:35):
uncomfortable that angerand that discomfort is
and how real it feels.
It feels so real andthose rationales can
feel so believable.
And I just want toacknowledge that for folks.
And I think it was importantfor me to remind myself like
why I was doing the work.
And I think that shiftingpoint for me of where
it wasn't working was Idid that group project.
(38:00):
Ugh, it was the hardest day.
It was the hardest day.
I left after getting thatfeedback and I went into the
bathroom and I cried and Iwas like, I'm, I don't want
to be in this program anymore.
I don't think I canbe a social worker.
That's how littletolerance I had.
I mean, it's just it's sointeresting once I'm on
(38:21):
the other side to be like,that was like my tolerance
of, I am so unwilling tobe uncomfortable with this.
I'm going to give upthis thing I love, right?
Because I don't thinkI'm doing it right.
And I have to do it perfectly.
And there was something yousaid that made me think, oh,
it was- it doesn't matter howmuch information that I get
(38:43):
about power and privilege.
I am always going to be awhite social worker, right?
Like I'm alwaysgoing to be white.
I'm not, I cannot getrid of my privilege by
understanding it enough.
And I think that was likethe thing I was like trying.
I think that was like theanger and the frustration is
I just wanted to be rid of it.
I just wanted tobe somebody else.
I just wanted it to be gonebecause I just didn't want to
(39:04):
have to take responsibilityfor what that was.
Because it felt too hard andI didn't want to have to be
that person who was havingto do the work because I
don't want to do hard things.
Such a baby and that's okay Itwas like a spirit like I was
spiritually and emotionally justvery immature in that way of I
(39:25):
don't want it I don't it's hard.
But I can't not be white, right?
Mm
hmm.
And so I went to the bathroomand I like cried about that
because I had that breakingpoint of realizing that I
either am going to step awayfrom people I really care
about, people that reallyinspire me, something that
(39:47):
is so important to me, orI'm going to look at it.
And, because I had that momentwhere I did that, I did this
writing and I looked at, I hadmy, I went to my mentor and he
was really straight up with me.
And he was like, Oh, are youhaving a hard time feeling
like you're, a little differentbecause of the way you look.
(40:07):
Is that hard for you?
This is like everybody else'sexperience, and you're just
going to run away from it and Iwas like, shoot, you're right.
And he had me write outall of the fear that was
coming up because he sawthe fear behind the anger.
And I think it was reallyhelpful for me to have somebody
that I could trust that Icould be so transparent with.
And that was when I sawthat underneath it all,
it was like, I don't thinkthat I have the capacity.
(40:30):
What if I don't have thecapacity to be a social
worker because I'm white?
And also what if I don't havea capacity to do this work and
to like, be in these spacesand not take up space and
not be harmful and to lookat these things regularly?
Mm
And that was that shiftingpoint of, so what, are
you going to not do it?
(40:51):
And I had to be like,no, I can't just not do
it because it's hard.
Yeah.
Yes.
That is, your story is makingme think about why we approach
the work the way that we do withthis, it's clinical in nature.
(41:12):
I'm sure that you've, theway that I facilitated
the classroom is the whatI do anywhere else I go.
So it's very experiential.
It's very, Hey everyone,let's sink into the moment.
And see what's going on here.
To do that, it's the,I believe the missing
piece in any DEI work.
(41:33):
DEI being this hugeumbrella, which includes
this work that you're doing.
This individual work thatyou're doing to undo,
redo, unlearn, relearn allof that other good stuff.
But the, it feels very clinical.
So not that it's our job tobe therapists for people.
But I do feel as people thatare facilitating spaces and
(41:56):
learning, it is our job to beable to hold moments and see
what's happening and get peopleto be in their own moments.
Going later and doing thejournaling and using your
own support therapist and allof that is very important.
And that is, I think,required for many people.
I would highly encourage that.
(42:17):
It's just the way that spacesare facilitated needs to hold
some of it so that it can existand people can learn in the
moments, learn what's happeningand then go figure out what
to do later on their own.
So I just, I appreciate whatyou're saying because it's
just really shining a lighton, I think when people
(42:39):
think of this type of work,especially in the context of
professional settings, whichcan include classrooms, it can
include workplaces or anythingelse that's related to that.
I think we over associateit with like work
professional tasks.
When I'm here, I do this thing.
I'm going to learn this stuffso I can do this at work or
do this in the classroom.
(42:59):
But it's not, like that.
It is not a separate thing thatyou come and do in that space
because it is so personalized.
It touches on the deepestparts of us, all of us.
It cannot be separate from, itcan't be a work tasky thingy.
It can't be thisintellectualized cognitive piece
(43:22):
of information that we learn.
And you were talkingabout that earlier.
It is so much more emotional.
And relational withself and others.
I just, I'm going tosay that until forever.
Like I just, it's just missedso much and it's coming
out of what you're saying.
(43:42):
Yeah, that resonates a lot.
I think we want to doa weekend workshop.
We got it, right?
I got my certificate.
Like for what?
I don't know if that'sgoing to help you do.
And that's not to say exactlywhat you're saying, which is...
Yes, go to those places,learn those things, be in
(44:04):
those spaces, but remember,it's not an, it's not a,
an end, an ends to a means,you don't, I didn't just,
oh, there, I got it, right?
I have to continue to beopen to the fact that, I
said this before and I'llsay it over and over again.
I will never fully comprehendanother person's experience and
(44:26):
I will never fully comprehendmy privilege because I was
never asked to look at it.
And I will, I hope that Icontinue to ask myself those
questions of, okay, whydo I think I deserve that?
Why do I think thisspace needs to be mine?
Why do I think thatI'm entitled to that?
How am I affectingthe folks around me?
(44:48):
Yep.
Yep.
I'm just thinking aboutlike a hundred different
directions to go and I thinkit'd probably be good to
wrap up with some modeling.
Everybody's journeyis different.
If anything, I hope peopleare walking away with this
exists, it always will.
(45:09):
The re like understandingself and not just the things
you like and don't like.
I mean, truly understandingwhat you're experiencing,
why you're experiencingit, where it comes from.
Yeah.
What are your go to's?
How do you get outof your go to's?
How do you process thethings you need to process?
(45:32):
All of that stuff is part of it.
And I think, when people sayself awareness a lot, it's
not just self awareness.
It is, it is thisdeep self work.
I need to have a better wordfor it, but I'm really hoping
people understand that.
And I think it could be helpfulto do some modeling real
time, if that's okay with you.
I'm just gonna ask maybelike one or two questions
(45:53):
and we'll see what happens.
Yeah, okay.
Then, is there anything, whatare you currently doing or not
doing that you, yeah, what areyou not doing that you know you
should be looking at right now?
And like, why areyou avoiding that?
What a greatvulnerable question.
(46:16):
I think what was coming to mindthat I touched on earlier when
I was talking about resourcesand that there were groups of
white social workers and whitefolks having these conversations
and I want to be really clearthat my point that I didn't
utilize them or that they didn'tresonate with me at the time was
not because they're not usefuland helpful and important.
(46:36):
I was just experiencing myown fear of being ignorant.
And I think that the reasonthat your question sparked that
is what we also talked aboutputting the responsibility
of learning about privilegeand what that means on
folks of color is also...
not necessarilythe right answer.
So when I look at what I'm notdoing that I should be doing
(46:58):
and that I do in little waysmore interpersonally that I
need to do more professionallyis having these conversations
with folks about their privilegeand what is their experience
looking at it and what myexperience is looking at it,
because I think that there isthis opportunity to have this
conversation where when peopleget angry and defensive, right?
(47:23):
I don't have to take thatpersonally because I understand
that experience, that itmight be their own stuff.
And am I doing the workto share the importance of
looking at these things.
So I think that was like thefirst thing that came to mind
that I'm not doing, that Iwant to be doing more is having
these conversations with otherwhite social workers about,
(47:43):
Hey, are we continuing tolook at this professionally,
interpersonally in life?
What am I doing tocontinue to learn?
And then I haven't been working.
Like I'm startingmy job on Monday.
I'm a little nervous, but.
I think what I should be doingtoo, is taking the time to
(48:03):
look at, okay, I'm enteringthis new space, And I looking
at, I like this practice thatwe did in school of, we looked
at the critical race theorytenants, and we looked at
actions associated with beingmore social justice focused.
And so I have this sheet thatis direct things that I can
do when I'm entering a space,responding to microaggressions.
(48:27):
Feeling safe doing so becauseI come from a different
place of privilege, right?
Entering a space and askinghow I can be helpful there, or
can I just be a listener there?
Really looking at these aresimple actions that I can take
that align with me looking moreopenly at my own positionality.
(48:50):
And then I think alsoreinforcing this idea of,
it's okay to not know, right?
It's okay to nothave it figured out.
I don't have to come inwith all of the answers.
I think that, ties back to mywanting to, own things, right?
It's okay for me to comeinto a space and ask those
questions of, Is theresomething that would be
helpful for me to share here,
(49:11):
Yeah.
That's what had me thinking.
I want to go back to thefirst thing that you said,
because there was a part of thequestion that you didn't answer.
And it's fine.
It's fine.
yeah.
You were talking aboutnot having conversations
about whiteness withpeople that you knew or
things under that umbrella.
(49:31):
And the other part of thequestion is, why would you, why
are you avoiding doing that?
Oh, that's a good question.
Maybe there's still partof me that doesn't feel
(49:52):
like I know enough andalso that it's hard, right?
I think there's partof me too that doesn't
like being uncomfortableand those are really
uncomfortable conversations.
And I think if I was honestlyto look at it, that, and there's
like a lot of, there's a lotof defensiveness and anger
(50:16):
that arises in people whenyou're like, hey, do you know
that you have this coming up?
And maybe there's part ofme that's oh, that might be
uncomfortable or they mightperceive me a certain way
if I bring that up in them.
Mm hmm.
I think there's this otherjustifying part of my brain
(50:36):
that's you haven't reallyhad the opportunity, like
you haven't really andI'm like, okay, please.
You haven't had the opportunityto, go out in the world and
invite these conversations in?
And I think the reality is,when I have taken the time
to have those conversations,they are uncomfortable.
People don't, they don't want tolook at it, and they don't want
to have that, but- Am I stillscared to be uncomfortable?
(50:59):
What's the worst thingthat's going to happen?
They're going to tell me, Idon't want to look at that.
And I'm going to say,if you don't, it's
actually really hurtful.
Do you want to talk about it?
And they might say no.
Okay, right?
so I think there's probablypart of me that still doesn't
want to be uncomfortable.
Oh, that feels so yucky to shareand look at, but it is true.
(51:21):
it's true and it is very common.
It's, if there was a wordthat's more than common, I
want to say all the time,but it can't be all the time.
It's a lot.
And I know it doesn't feelgood and I appreciate you
being honest about it.
Honest, not with me, butjust honest with yourself.
And I would hope that,translates to you leaning more
(51:44):
into that and taking action.
When you said that, the thingthat came up for me, I thought
this is a great example ofwhat, people of color are
talking about when we have tobe the ones to say something.
(52:04):
You know, cause Becauseif we don't, then things
can keep happening.
And the burden continues tofall on us to say or not say.
So I just imagine otherpeople hearing this,
just like I heard it now.
I'm like, this is likethe, this is an example
of what we're saying.
When we say, you getto be in the space and
say, Oh, it's hard.
(52:27):
They're going to getangry and defensive.
I was like, they definitely,like they're gonna, yeah,
Mm-hmm.
That, that feeling.
The anticipation of somethingthat's so frequent for people
who say something is that's thething that we're talking about.
This is a, it'd be great ifwe can get to a place in the
(52:47):
world where it's shared, Youdon't have to be a person
who identifies as whateverto then speak on a matter.
We can all...
do that together.
And as it stands now, it'slived for the most part as
a thing we know we shoulddo, but the practice part is
what you're talking about.
People do avoid it.
(53:08):
And then again, it comes tous to have to say something.
So that's just whatcame up for me.
And I'm certain when people hearthis, it'll be like, yeah, of
course you don't want to do it.
We already know all about it.
Join the club.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's like another, right?
When we look at like, how are,how am I still doing the work?
(53:30):
And what my privilege oh,I'm just not going to, Oh, I
can just like turn, is thatwhat you're gonna do, Bryce?
I have to ask myself that.
Oh, you're going to put that onsomebody else because it's hard.
And I haven't, and I'm reallyhappy we're talking about this.
Cause I haven't had likedirect experiences yet where
(53:51):
I've seen something and I'vebeen like, Oh, Hey, like
maybe we should address that.
But I know when that comesand I experienced that little,
Oh, this is going to belike, I will think about this
conversation of okay, Bryce
if not you, then who?
And is that right?
Is that where that should fall?
Because there's also like a,when I think about me being like
a job space, like having that,there's a protectiveness, right?
(54:14):
Of I'm gonna, I'm gonna havesomebody else feel unsafe,
when I might be able to addressthis with my own experience
of hey, you might be entirelyunaware because you've never
had to look at this, thatwhat you're, what you just
said is really problematic.
Right.
Yes, and you had saidsomething too about, one
(54:37):
of your rat-, it's the, oneof your rationalizations to
yourself, do I know enoughor I don't know enough?
And I'm like, you kindof also admitted to that.
People don't know.
Like most people do not know.
And no one knows everything,but you know what you know.
You do know what you doknow, and that is shareable.
(55:00):
And there's also a humblenessin helping others from a place
of not knowing everything.
Because the goal isn't togo and just tell everybody
all the things to do.
There is an invitation tosomeone's own exploration
and thinking differently.
That is always going to beon the table for you to do.
People don't have to knoweverything to support people
(55:22):
in their growth, to challengea bit, to learn with people.
There's a co learningprocess that can occur
through helping others.
And I say this not to just toyou, it's to anybody in this
type of situation, anybodywho's wondering if to say or
not say something and whatevertheir internal process is.
(55:43):
Yeah, there's justso much to this.
I don't want toopen another door.
I feel like we can walkthrough that and it'll
be a whole other thing.
But I will just ask isthere anything else that
you want to share on thistopic before we wrap up?
I think just quickly,tying in what you just
said to everything, is,
(56:08):
is that there are going tobe things that will continue
to arise for folks as theylook at these, at this stuff.
And for me, maybe I know thatfor me that little part of
me that doesn't like to feelignorant, or that I don't know,
or they don't have it figuredout, that's probably going
to be the identifier for me.
And if I'm gonna apply tomy practice, to my life,
(56:32):
that it's okay to not know.
Like you said.
I can embody that evenwhen sharing my experience.
And that it's really helpfulthat we start to look for and
identify what are the thingsthat come up for you when
you start to feel like maybethere's something you need
(56:52):
to look at a little deeper.
And it might be differentfor different people.
Some people might have adifferent experience where
they lean all the way in.
Where I like pushed away,but they might lean all the
way in and they might wantto buy all the books and know
all the information and goto all the seminars, but like
looking really behind thatof what is coming up for you?
You shared what you do in theclassroom in a professional
(57:13):
space of what's happeningright here right now for me.
Where is this coming fromand knowing it's okay.
If it's weird andgross and feels.
Yeah, I did not.
I do not like lookingat those things.
But I know that they'rejust, it's essential, right?
It's so importanty'all look at it.
Look at it hard.
Look at it weird.
You know what I mean?
(57:34):
Look at it becauseit's there, right?
It's not going to goaway just because you
don't want to look at it.
And if you're not looking atit, you're living with it.
So just knowing it's okay whenthat weird stuff comes up.
It's okay to be vulnerable.
It's even right now sharingthat Oh yeah, that's so obvious
nobody would want to have thatconversation because people
(57:55):
get angry and uncomfortable.
Oh, that made me feelso yeah, Bryce, come on.
You know what I mean?
That makes me feel sovulnerable and yeah, come on.
Why aren't you need tobe doing those things?
But yeah, I have to feelthat stuff if I'm going
to be able to move throughthe world differently.
So just knowing that folkslike it's okay if it's weird
and hard and feels grossfind the spaces that you can
(58:17):
talk about it write about it.
Look at it, you know Itdoesn't have to define the
way that you continue to live.
It can redefine the way thatyou use that and work with
that to be more helpful.
Yes, I love that.
That is a perfect wrap up.
I'm not even going to addanything on top of that.
I really do appreciate youletting us peek inside and
(58:41):
sharing what you sharedand your vulnerability.
And I know there were acouple of points where
it was like, okay, I'mgonna say this out loud.
Like I saw it.
I appreciate you so much.
That's part of why that'sprobably one of the most
significant reasons why I wantedto bring you on for an episode
because you'll take the deepbreath and you'll, you'll do it.
(59:03):
You'll do it for thesake of modeling, for
people to understand.
If people want to get intouch with you, Bryce, what's
the best way to do that?
Yeah, if we can leave myemail in the description,
I'll put that in my bio.
Please reach out to me.
That's probably the bestform of communication.
And I would love any sortof conversations about this.
(59:26):
We can set up zoomcalls, phone calls.
I'm really open to talking tofolks about their experience.
Perfect.
Perfect.
And I'm also open tosuggestions, resources,
send them my way.
I got to keep learning, got keep
growing.
A lot of things.
Good.
I need them.
Oh goodness.
Thank you so much for watching.
(59:47):
If this was interesting toyou, please like, share,
comment, talk about thiswith people in your network.
Get into dialogue,always reach out.
Visit me atlivingunapologetically.
com.
All my social mediahandles on there.
You can email.
There's free tools and resourcesfor you to deepen your practice.
(01:00:08):
And of course, you willhave access to my book,
Bias Conscious Leadership: A Framework for Leading with (01:00:10):
undefined
Action and Accountability.
Thank you again for watching.
I hope you have a wonderfulrest of your day and
hope to connect soon.
Until next time.
Bye.
It doesn't matter how muchinformation that I get
(00:04):
about power and privilege.
I am always going to be awhite social worker, right?
Like I'm alwaysgoing to be white.
I'm not, I cannot getrid of my privilege by
understanding it enough.
We are in another episodeof the Living Out Loud
Discussion Series.
Today we are going to beexploring messages and
behaviors of a white socialworker who's going to let
(00:24):
us unpack her experience.
My name is Charmaine Utz,Relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areopenly unpacking real life
scenarios and issues that comeup in professional settings.
In every single episode, we havea goal to reveal the layers and
the nuances in our interactionswith each other so that we can
learn about them as a communitythat cares about diversity,
(00:45):
equity, and inclusion.
Now, as always, the thoughts,views, and opinions that
are shared in today'sconversation, they are my own
and not as representative ofany of the agencies that I
work for or I'm employed by.
(01:13):
Thank you Bryce fordoing this with me.
I am really looking forward toour conversation and I don't
even know what the best titlefor this is other than exploring
the messages and behaviorsof a white social worker.
Even though you are new to yourMSW, that doesn't mean that
you are new to social work.
(01:34):
So I met you student in myclass this past semester
and we had some reallyinteresting interactions.
And I remember and I told youthis - that your process of
introspection and then abilityto share out with people was
(01:54):
done in such a way that Ihadn't necessarily seen before.
And I felt like it could be veryhelpful for people to hear it.
Not that you know all thethings it's just your process
is really interesting andthe way you communicate
it is interesting too.
But before we get into that,I just want to give you an
opportunity to take somespace, share who you are,
(02:15):
what you're doing and whateveryou feel is important to you.
Yeah, I'm also reallyexcited to be recording this.
Mostly because I think that it'simportant for people to talk
about their experiences walkingthrough some of these things.
And I'm glad that Ican share about it and
hopefully it's helpful.
I just graduated with my MSW, asyou know, from Dominguez Hills.
(02:37):
And our program is reallyspecial in a way that it's
centered around criticalrace theory, which I found
so incredibly importantin my experience as a
white social worker.
And I've been doing social work.
My gosh, like how do wecategorize social work, right?
Human services.
It's like such a breadthof work, but for quite
(02:59):
a number of years.
And I worked initially withadults on the on different
spectrums of neurodivergencethat needed support in
vocational training.
And I started working withfolks and I started seeing the
impact of systems, folks thatwere plugged into like regional
centers and having caseworkersand the families trying to
(03:22):
work within the system withoutknowing all of the information.
And I just became reallycurious and really
frustrated at the same time.
And there was this part of methat has always been really
frustrated with why thingsare made so difficult for
folks that need more support.
And I started to developthis curiosity of, what
(03:42):
can I do in those spaces?
And, I was a returncollege student.
I think that's also important toshare for folks who maybe don't
know yet what they want to do,where they're moving, or they're
recently coming into socialwork from a different angle
or a different point in life.
And I went back to collegeafter dropping out horribly.
(04:04):
And I spent a lot of timein school, working and
being in school and kindof taking things slowly.
And during that time, Iworked at a shelter with folks
experiencing homelessness, folksthat were unhoused, and I got to
see, so many different facets of
the human experience of beingunhoused and why folks are
in that space of needingmore support the things
(04:27):
that folks bring in withthem in that space and how
little support there was.
During that time, I was workingas a housing coordinator
and I would have these folkscome in and we worked under
a housing 1st model, whichI really like, which is- if
you are able to help somebodyfind stable housing, they're
more likely to be able toget support for other things,
(04:49):
substance use disorder, mentalhealth, these different areas.
But again, like finding myselffeeling really frustrated of why
can't we find ways to connectfolks to these resources sooner
and then folks, their ownindividual barriers of getting
connected and like wanting more.
So when I ended upgetting my MSW, it's...
It's a big, so many thingssocial workers can do, right?
(05:13):
And it was like this spaceof I'm just somebody that
really loves connectingwith people, but also feels
like that's not enough.
I think that's not enough.
And, so I know that's like areally long way of explaining
who I am, but I think socialwork has become so deeply
embedded in the things that Ido in the spaces that I enter.
I'm also theselike other things.
(05:34):
I'm a mentor to women.
That's a really bigpart of my life.
And I'm a fitness coach, whichis like a weird thing I never
really expected to become, butit's like this area where I'm
like, I just really love likeconnection and helping folks
realize their power and kind of
breaking down these ideas ofwhat it means to be healthy
and well and finding andhave your own path to just
(05:56):
moving in your body becauseour bodies carry so much.
And all of these things puttogether, create this space
of just like exploration.
And I really, if I wasto define myself as
something, it's an explorer.
That's a really longexplanation, but it's
a little bit about me.
Thank you so much forsharing all of that.
(06:18):
I am really looking forwardto getting into our convo.
And I think a good place tostart is our first encounter
because I think it likehighlights this interaction
that we've been talking about.
And I, from my perspective,remember, I don't know if
it was the first or secondday, it might've been the
(06:39):
first, but one of the firstdays of class you came up to
me to ask me some questions.
And I remember, Oh my gosh,what was the question?
You wanted to know one about theamount of time that you talk.
Are you talking too much?
Or too little, are youtaking up too much space as a
white person in a classroom?
(07:01):
And that filtered intoquestions about what you
were not doing with a client.
And I was just, I justremember thinking, oh
goodness, that on the firstor second day of class,
this is really interesting.
And you were justso receptive to it.
I wanted to start thereand just ask like from your
perspective, what was happeningand let's just see that.
(07:25):
Yeah, I am giggling to myself,remembering the energy with
which I, it was like a bull.
Like I was like, I need help.
And I don't know what it wasspecifically about the way,
it was our first day of class.
It was the firsttime I had met you.
It was the first timethat I'd had a one on one
conversation with you.
(07:46):
But there wassomething about the way
you moved through the roomthat I felt this is a person I
can ask these questions with.
And I also think I wasready to be receptive.
And I think there was likea journey before that,
which I will probably end uptalking about as well as we
(08:07):
unpack some of this stuff.
But by the time I got toyour classroom, I was in my
second year of the socialwork program, entirely based
on critical race theory.
And what I love about DominguezHills is they really focus
on integrating that into thecurriculum at all levels,
which I got continued exposure.
Like the tenets of criticalrace theory, what that
(08:29):
looks like in my life.
But I also was one of very fewwhite students in the program.
So I was getting allof this information
and I was experiencingfragility, which I didn't know
that's what it was at the time.
I think what I didn't talk aboutin my intro as much because
it's more about my life andthe places that I've lived, but
(08:50):
I hadn't, I didn't grow up ina lot of spaces where we were
talking about privilege, right?
Or I was talking aboutwhat it was to be a
white person in America.
And I lived in New York andI lived in areas that were
diverse in their nature.
And I thought all ofthese things of, I'm a
social justice person.
That's something that Ibelieve in, but I had never
(09:12):
taken a look at, my owninternalized stuff or the
way I grew up or the way that
my whiteness affected others.
And so I'm getting all ofthis information, and I don't
know this discomfort andthis feeling like this yucky.
That's what it felt like.
It felt like I am just agarbage person, which I wish
I had different language, butthat's really how it felt.
(09:33):
And I felt so ignorant, likeI had never felt before.
And I was sitting in thisspace and unpacking all of
this stuff, but alone, becauseI didn't feel, for whatever
reason, I didn't feel likeI could just like openly, I
don't know if it was like,put that on my classmates or
that I was, I think there'salso this part of me that was
(09:55):
scared to let others know howignorant I realized I was.
But when I came into your class,you made this space up and
you had said something, and Idon't even know if it was that
first day, but about, yes, wehave privilege, but like, how
are you going to use it to it
be a social justice individual,to be a social worker.
(10:16):
And it, hit me that Iwas like, I know nothing.
And this person knows somethingand maybe I can ask her.
And we had thisconversation about taking
space and making space.
And we'd been havingthat conversation
in classrooms a lot.
And I was like, I don'tknow how to do that.
Because even in my makingspace, it was about me.
(10:39):
It was about like, Oh, I wantto like, step back and make
space because I don't want themto think that I'm taking space.
I don't want them to think thatI'm being that person, right?
Like, they're
It's
not for them.
It's still about, I don'twant to be that person.
And I was like,so stuck in that.
And I remember I asked theclass, can you support me
(11:00):
in not taking so much space.
And I didn't know, I didn'teven have the language to
know what I was asking for.
And so I came to youand I was like, I don't
know what I'm doing.
I'm experiencing these things.
I know that they're important.
What do I do with them?
And it opened up thisconversation where I wanted to
(11:20):
talk about how I was practicingcritical race or how I was
applying critical race theoryas a white social worker with
my clients that were fromdifferent backgrounds and
had different experiences.
And what I shared with you wasthat I wasn't broaching the
topic of race with my clients.
(11:43):
For some reason thatfelt so scary to me.
And I remember what I saidto you is I'm scared that
as soon as I say, I'm awhite social worker, they're
going to go, I knew it.
They're going to be like,I don't want anything like,
and you were so gracious andjust like honest and strong
with me about the fact that.
They know, right?
(12:03):
Like it's already a thing.
And that I, not only being inthe position of, at that time
I was practicing therapy at apredominantly white institution.
So my, my, students thatwere coming in that were not
identifying as white werealready in a space where they
were feeling minoritized.
(12:24):
And my cat's sneezing eight
I'm going to just kindof interject then from
what you were saying.
There's two things coming upfor me as you're sharing that.
One is what my perspectivewas in what it continues to
be when I'm a person of color,a black woman teaching other
people, especially white people.
(12:45):
And then the other issomething that we probably
should have talked about atthe beginning was how do we
have this conversation in away that honors your process,
but doesn't feel like, Oh,look at this wonderful white
person who, and I don't evenhave the right words, but
you know what I'm saying?
(13:05):
How do we do it in a waythat doesn't feel like praise
for a necessary struggle?
Although I want to honor thefact that you're doing the work.
So I don't even know how tophrase it other than that.
I'm sure there are betterwords, but you know
what I'm talking about?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's this idea andI look at it as a really broad
(13:30):
thing of like possessiveness.
And that there are folks maybewho can identify with this
feeling that I was reflectingon, there's something to own
and, like, I did it and I'veaccomplished this thing or, it's
not this thing of look at thisperson who's, accomplished this.
Because that's not youdon't accomplish it.
(13:50):
I'm never I am nevergoing to be done.
Right?
So it's not even a lookat this person who did it.
Because I don't feel that way.
It's actually the work is-Hey, do you realize that
you don't know and youwill never stop learning.
And so I don't know how, likeyou said, like you don't know
what the words are to makesure that people know this
(14:12):
isn't Oh, Hey, look, I did it.
Like I know what it is orI know the perfect way to
be a white social worker.
That's not a thing.
It's going to bedifferent for everyone.
And it continues.
I will never.
I will never understand theexperience of another person
who doesn't have the privilegethat I do when I enter a room.
(14:35):
Everybody's is goingto be different.
And if I'm not, if Ialready think oh, I got it.
I know how to be thewhite social worker.
So I know how to enterthis space with humility.
That's actually not givingthe other person the
experience to let me knowwhat it means for them.
Right?
There's like, so I think thebig thing, is it's not like, oh,
praise for an accomplishment.
(14:56):
Oh, I was a decent, Iwas a decent human being.
I have some humility.
Yes.
Okay.
I like that.
That feels good.
We'll use that as the framingbecause I, the other part
too is I am somebody, I ama person of color, a woman
of color who, is in a lotof spaces of teaching and
(15:17):
growing and developing people.
And a lot of thosepeople are white people.
And it's interesting becauseit also comes with this
experience of, well, I don'talways want to do that.
I don't for lots ofdifferent reasons.
So I try to pick and choosewhen I do go into spaces,
(15:39):
knowing that everybody's I tolearn something, hopefully.
And if someone's coming tome, I have already positioned
myself as someone who'sthere to help people learn.
So be it in a classroom likewe were or an organization
or anything like that.
I frequently have to weigh, doI want to do this today or not?
(15:59):
And, I am a person- there'spart of my privilege
and power in this spacethat is here to teach.
So I have to do that a lot.
Now, I remember that day andI was completely fine, but it
is a thing, like how much ofthis is mine to teach a person.
So when you come up tome as a white student
and you're like, help me.
(16:19):
I don't know all thethings, like what do I do?
Like my first frame is, doyou want to do this today?
Yeah.
Do you want to do it?
Do you have thecapacity to do it?
What can you tell this person sothat you're not giving all the
answers, but you're walking themthrough to sort out whatever it
is they're experiencing, whichis a lot of work on my part.
(16:41):
So I'm constantlybouncing if I want to.
And then what's myresponsibility as the
person who's chosen to bethe teacher in this space.
So that's something that wasreal when we were meeting,
and I was completely fineto be there with you.
And your response to me,it wasn't like I was just
pulling it out of you.
(17:01):
I have found that sometimespeople, from that space that
you were talking about- I don'tknow anything this person does,
wants to go to the person thatdoes, and tell me everything
I need to know so that Ican do it right over there.
It wasn't like that.
So I think that's, to me,a really good indicator of
someone wanting to grow.
(17:23):
Going for help, asking for allthe answers to do different
versus going for help, knowingthat you'll be taken through
your own, you figure itout what's happening here.
So you decide what to do isa very different process.
And I remember wegot to do that and I
appreciated that about you.
You did that a lot.
So I just wanted toacknowledge that.
(17:44):
Thank you.
And it had me thinkingtoo, it's really important
to say it is not folks ofcolor's responsibility to
teach white people how towalk through this process.
And because when I hearyou saying that, it's true,
I, I couldn't go to peopleand say, help me with
(18:05):
this thing that is like myresponsibility to confront.
And yes, asking questions,but yeah, not putting it on
you of you need to give methe answers to fix, right?
Or finish or do it right.
I think that all ofthat is built into the
experience of privilege.
Wanting to own it, wantingto fix it, wanting to,
it's, and it's not fair toput that on somebody else.
(18:26):
But that's a hard space becauseit's also like really lonely.
I think I shared with you,I'd asked somebody for help
and they were like, or I hadthis idea in my head that the
response they gave me was like,read White Fragility, right?
I was like, okay, like Ican read this book and I
can learn these things.
And maybe at the time they gaveme more, but I wasn't receptive.
I can't remember.
I like looked it up andall I found was this book.
(18:46):
But I just rememberfeeling like.
This is all I have.
And it's not true.
There's a lot of resources outthere of where folks can go and
talk and using those resources.
And I think also what yousaid to me too, or what you're
saying right now has me thinkingI could have also asked.
Hey, do you have the capacityto talk to me about some of
(19:07):
these things that are coming up?
And I think that's when Ireflect back on what I maybe was
still learning then is to ask.
Hey, this stuff isbringing up stuff for me.
Are you the person Ican ask about this?
Do you have the space for that?
If not, do you haveany suggestions for me?
No, that's cool.
Not your responsibility.
(19:28):
I would have like, thatI would love not just
thinking back on that onescenario, being asked that.
That's a question I think,my friends and I, we do with
each other just in general.
When we hit eachother up for stuff.
Do you have the capacityto hear or for me to,
because we understandbandwidth and capacity.
(19:49):
So when you just said that,I thought to myself, just
all of the scenarios flashedbefore my eyes of people
coming to me for stuff.
And I thought, well, howwonderful would that be
if people asked me if Ihave the capacity first.
It's just when you're aperson, when you're DEI
lady, and I happen to be thatlady, no matter where I'm at.
(20:11):
So when you're that person,people are just drawn.
Let me go to this personto get the answers
that I've been seeking.
I don't have all the answers,but that's just how it feels.
So I was just, I just had awhole visceral response when
you said, what if I asked?
I thought, wow,that'd be amazing.
(20:32):
That would be so great!
Yes.
Yes.
Oh my goodness.
And then, see, nowyou got me thinking.
It also, because of thishistorically, and then my
experience, so historicallyfor Black women in professional
settings, which is also mylived experience, this idea of
(20:53):
having to work really hard anddo all the things and be super
knowledgeable in order to beseen as equal, I don't know if
better is a thing, but equal asother people doing less work.
When anyone comes to you,another thing that I will do is-
well, let me do this so Ican do a good job even if I
don't have the capacity to,I also make a decision to
(21:16):
serve too much from a placeof internalized oppression.
I have to pay a lotof attention to that.
So there's a lot going on insomeone like you to come to me
and then there's so much goingon with me having to respond,
deciding to respond and how.
So it's just interestingto have this dialogue that
I just literally talkingout loud realizing stuff.
(21:38):
Yeah,
Yes.
has me thinking too.
It's I just, it has likemy juices flowing, right?
Yeah.
No.
I don't know if folks frompositions of power and
privilege and whiteness takethat into consideration.
Not very much.
No.
Because it'suncomfortable, and...
(21:59):
There's that ownership thatI was sharing about of like,
it's about how I feel thatI'm uncomfortable, fix it.
Not taking into considerationwhat anybody else is
feeling, the space thatthey're coming from.
Am I putting this person in aposition where they're going
to feel obligated or basedon their experience, it's
going to bring something up inthem that isn't serving them.
(22:21):
Maybe, am I even asking?
Am I even considering?
Or is it about me?
Right.
Cause that's a, it's always,it's always, well, I want,
I need, I deserve, why?
Yeah.
And it's so hard forme to look at why.
Oh, that's my privilege.
I wanted to cuss, butIt's there it is again.
And I think when we lookat like continuing the work
(22:44):
is, it's really easy tojust not look at that stuff.
It is really easy tojust, whatever, I'm going
to keep moving throughthe world in this way.
But it's a really selfish thingto do to just continue to move
through the world in that way.
So that's what it hadme thinking about.
(23:05):
You had said something earlierthat I just want to know if
you can expand on a little bitand you it was like a window
into what you were being taughtas a white social worker.
It's not even necessarilya social worker.
But you were talking aboutthe white fragility book and
I remember you were tellingme a story before that the
sense of- And I know todayyou said something a little
(23:26):
different than before soit's okay, but i'm like it's
the book of white fragility.
I remember you saying allI really got was this book.
And people said, do thisand you're good to go.
And you were like, what?
this is it.
So I, if you can just givea little bit more window
into what that's like.
What are you taught?
(23:46):
Are there, is there supportfor growth in this area as
a white social worker sothat it isn't necessarily
something that you are lookingfor people of color for?
I'm just so curious about that.
Yeah, so I want to saytoo, there probably are
(24:08):
resources out there thatI don't know about yet.
So if you're a white socialworker, if you're wanting to
explore some of this stuff andI don't mention a resource that
you found really valuable andthere are things out there, I'm
not saying they don't exist.
I just didn't look for them orI didn't find them at the time.
But yeah, I felt like I justhad this book written by
this white lady about thesefeelings that I was gonna have.
(24:32):
And then I had read up on thebook and there was like some
conversations about that bookessentially wasn't enough.
And I didn't know, I,I just was so lost.
It's really the best way thatI know how to describe it.
And I had heard aboutdifferent spaces and programs
(24:52):
where there's, like whitepeople for Black lives.
There are differentorganizations of folks having
these conversations aboutwhat it is to be white and
to support folks of color.
I still didn't feel like Ihad enough understanding of
my own privilege and whitenessand I didn't feel like I had
looked at enough in myselfto even enter those spaces.
(25:13):
And I also felt like I didn'twant to go into, I don't know
really how to describe it,but it was like, I didn't
want to go talk to other whitepeople about being white.
And I know that kind of soundsstrange, but that was just
what I was experiencing.
I was like, I think I'vetalked a lot about that.
(25:36):
What would it be likeif I just listened?
What would it be like if Istopped trying to like I said
before, like complete something?
Like all of that was driven in,if I know more, I'll be better.
Instead of, I don'tknow anything.
And so I got White Fragility.
I got this book, WhiteSupremacy and Me, and
(25:56):
it had these differentwriting activities in it.
And I started to look atthis stuff and these feelings
that I was experiencing.
And I started to look atmy experience in classrooms
that were predominantly folksof color, where I started
to feel like I had to mask.
And I didn't want to sayanything cause I didn't
want people to know that Ididn't know anything, but
(26:17):
I also knew I didn't knowanything and I wanted them
to think I knew something.
And so I just startedlike masking and
retreating into self.
And it was really, yeah.
And in terms of like resourcesas I had to start being
okay with that experienceof not knowing, like I had
to start being okay withthis is not something that
(26:38):
I'm going to accomplishreading a book, right?
This is my entire life, Ihave been in a position of
privilege and I have neverturned around and looked
at what that is, right?
I have never been in aspace where I was asked
to look at my whiteness.
And I'm not just goingto read a book and know
(26:59):
everything about what that is.
I have to bewilling to not know.
And I started coming into spaceswith that perspective of I don't
know, what is this feeling?
Where is that coming from?
What am I assuming about whatpeople are thinking about me?
And oh my God, Ihave no tolerance for
being uncomfortable.
Oh my gosh, I have notolerance for being a minority
(27:22):
in a quantitative way.
Of being like, I was like,oh, this is, wow, this is what
folks experience really often.
The mi the most minor fractionof that and I can't stand it.
And I wanna hide.
And I had to start writingwhat was coming up for me and
Wait, hold on.
(27:42):
I will pause right there.
I am so curious.
from your place of knowing, theretreating, and the not knowing,
and I'm curious about how thistranslates to your behavior.
And I really wish I remembered.
You just said the word.
I cannot believe.
I can't remember it.
(28:03):
I had no tolerance.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay.
So the no tolerance spaces.
Do you have a sense of, doyou have a sense of what
that looks like behaviorallywith other people?
And if you do, Yes.
Do you or not?
Do
Yeah.
Okay.
(28:23):
Then share what thatis, but also share how
you knew what it was.
Yeah.
So, and I will say this is,this is hard to share because
I wish it wasn't true thatmy behavior, I guess my
feelings, I don't know howmuch it translated into my
behavior, but I felt defensive.
(28:43):
I felt angry.
I think the way thattranslated into my behavior
is I was so closed off.
So I stopped reachingout to my peers.
And so I became very lonelyin a program that I didn't
need to feel lonely in.
My cohort mates would gohave lunch together and they
would, like, it actually-I feel like I missed out
(29:04):
on a lot of opportunitiesof connection because I
was, I totally retreated.
And my behavior was like,I didn't want to engage in
conversations because I didn'tknow how to take space, not take
space, talk about these things,and I didn't know how to be
helpful, harmful, contribute.
And so I just stopped engaging.
And when I would be inclassrooms, I would come in
(29:27):
early, I would sit by myself.
I wouldn't talk to folks,I wouldn't raise my hand as
often, which, if anybody knowsme, and maybe are getting a
sense here, I'm pretty, like,lively, and unhinged, and
weird, and wooey, and it'svery obvious when I'm not.
And all of a sudden Iwas becoming so isolated.
(29:48):
And the way that I, you askedthis question of like, how did I
start to identify that behavior?
Is that what you asked?
Yeah.
Like how do you know?
How did you come to knowthat's what you were doing?
I think I knew that theanger and the defensiveness
wasn't actually prompted byanything that was happening
(30:11):
on the outside world.
Like nobody was actuallydoing anything to me.
And
Hmm.
I remember that I was,yeah, it was just all this
perception that I was having.
I'm getting like warm thinkingabout it because it was,
I think about so many folkswho maybe get stuck in that
(30:31):
space of angry and defensiveand then it turns into this
flipping over of privilege isn'treal, or I earned my keep, or
how dare you challenge thesethings in me, or I have a right
to have these conversations.
(30:51):
And I found myself looking forother ways where I'm not in
positions of privilege to- Oh,I know what it's like, right?
Like I was raised by queermoms or like I identify as a
queer person or, I'm a womanand those things are true.
And those things are validand those are positions
where I'm not entirelyholding power and privilege.
However, those are entirelydifferent from my identity
(31:14):
as a white social worker.
You know what I mean?
I just didn't wantto look at it.
And so I think I get alittle bit like a little
emotional thinking.
If you are stuck there,I hope you can start to
notice if you're, like,hearing these things of,
I'm also experiencing it.
Not you specifically,of course, listeners.
I'm experiencing thisfeeling of, defensiveness
and aggression.
There was somethingthere for me.
(31:36):
And what ended up happeningis I was in a group project.
I'll share this kind of briefly.
And it was, interactive and,it was talked very openly about
me being a white social worker.
And it was really calledout the way that I affected
others by not lookingat how I'm taking space.
(31:59):
And I left feeling so angryand betrayed and defensive
because I had never hadit, openly called out.
I'd been doing thiswork internally.
I'd been having these thoughtsof maybe I'm ignorant, maybe
I don't know these things.
And then I had folks going,do you know that that is
also you, perpetuating?
Do you know that that is alsoyou being in that position?
And these folks thatare just calling it out.
(32:21):
And I am like, how dare theymake me so uncomfortable.
And so I was like, this is not,this is not resonating with me.
And I ended up doingsome writing about the
fear that I was having.
Why is this?
Why am I so angry and defensive?
What am I so scared of?
(32:43):
And I was really scared thatbecause I was a white social
worker, I was never going tobe able to actually help folks
that were from different spaces.
That that my power andprivilege separated me
in a way that wasn't, Iwasn't able to be helpful.
But it was like that angerand that defensiveness that
I had to sit with and togo, that's not my nature.
(33:07):
That's not who I am.
These people are lovely.
I really want to befriends with them.
I really want to connect.
And I had to sit in thatand go, what is that?
Because it's not them.
It's not these conversations.
It's in me.
Yeah,
Yes, yes.
You have said multiplethings that have me
(33:30):
thinking lots of things.
This happens a lot.
So I'm like, whichdirection to go?
A little while back you weretalking about the places
that you went, behaviorally.
So it was the defensiveness,the anger, and then even the
interesting, like associatingwith a piece of oppression
(33:52):
here so that you look, I knowwhat it's like too, to get
away from this introspectionthat you're talking about, the
avoidance of the introspection.
And that process, thatfeeling in that process and
being able to go through thatcontinuously, because it's a
(34:14):
continuous thing, being able togo through that is important,
or you do get stuck there.
People get stuck there.
And when you're stuck there, youget stuck in the ration- there's
so many good rationalizationthingies going on.
It can make all the sense.
I say this from, you had said,not you, but why, I'm like, I
(34:36):
have done, still do, I have tobe very aware of me doing the
same thing, for lots of reasons.
So I...
know this process as well.
I have had to dealwith it and still do.
So I don't want toseparate myself like,
yeah, y'all over there.
It's me too.
I think it's a littledifferent, a lot different
(34:57):
between you and I, butthere are some similarities
that I can understand thestuckness and the struggle.
But I felt when you werelike, don't get stuck.
Don't get stuck there.
Like I felt that and I'veseen people so stuck.
I've seen people really strugglethrough it and come out on
the other end of knowing thatthat's just part of it and I
(35:18):
can build the capacity for it.
And then I've seenpeople justified
in the rationalization thatthey came up with or the
multiple ones that they cameup with to stay distanced from
really understanding themselvesand the things that they do.
So that was likereally interesting.
And, when you were talking aboutseparateness, I'm like, there's
(35:42):
always, there's a separatenessin general from maybe not
understanding or having thesame life experiences, but
there's a separateness frompeople, a disconnection from
relationships and communitywhen you're literally cutting
off that part of yourself andnot doing the introspection.
Because what you're describing,the defensiveness and the anger
and the moving away from istruly disconnection from what's
(36:06):
happening in the self, thereforeunable to connect with others.
Which is why like in the workthat I do or the work that
me and the consultants doat Living Unapologetically
is really trying to helppeople be right here in this.
What is all of this going on?
How can we help you be here andsort this out so that you can be
(36:29):
with others and understand them?
And what I'm hearing you say isone, I don't know everything.
I don't got thisshit figured out.
But I have figured out, Idefinitely have had internal
stuff I have rationalized my wayaway from, and that didn't help.
So now, did you ever get toa point where, was there any
(36:52):
catalyst moment or any thingswhere you realized, okay,
this isn't working for me?
This anger, this distancy stuff,this blame, defensiveness,
did you ever get outof that and if so, how?
What happened?
Yeah, so I lost an AirPod.
Please
That's...
Go...
Hahaha!
(37:13):
I'm back.
Hahaha!
Oh, gosh.
So I
Alrighty, there were justthings that you said that
inspired so much in me.
So I'm trying to,
You can reply to thosetoo, there's no rules here.
yeah, I was thinking about,gosh, first of all, how
(37:35):
uncomfortable that angerand that discomfort is
and how real it feels.
It feels so real andthose rationales can
feel so believable.
And I just want toacknowledge that for folks.
And I think it was importantfor me to remind myself like
why I was doing the work.
And I think that shiftingpoint for me of where
it wasn't working was Idid that group project.
(38:00):
Ugh, it was the hardest day.
It was the hardest day.
I left after getting thatfeedback and I went into the
bathroom and I cried and Iwas like, I'm, I don't want
to be in this program anymore.
I don't think I canbe a social worker.
That's how littletolerance I had.
I mean, it's just it's sointeresting once I'm on
(38:21):
the other side to be like,that was like my tolerance
of, I am so unwilling tobe uncomfortable with this.
I'm going to give upthis thing I love, right?
Because I don't thinkI'm doing it right.
And I have to do it perfectly.
And there was something yousaid that made me think, oh,
it was- it doesn't matter howmuch information that I get
(38:43):
about power and privilege.
I am always going to be awhite social worker, right?
Like I'm alwaysgoing to be white.
I'm not, I cannot getrid of my privilege by
understanding it enough.
And I think that was likethe thing I was like trying.
I think that was like theanger and the frustration is
I just wanted to be rid of it.
I just wanted tobe somebody else.
I just wanted it to be gonebecause I just didn't want to
(39:04):
have to take responsibilityfor what that was.
Because it felt too hard andI didn't want to have to be
that person who was havingto do the work because I
don't want to do hard things.
Such a baby and that's okay Itwas like a spirit like I was
spiritually and emotionally justvery immature in that way of I
(39:25):
don't want it I don't it's hard.
But I can't not be white, right?
Mm
hmm.
And so I went to the bathroomand I like cried about that
because I had that breakingpoint of realizing that I
either am going to step awayfrom people I really care
about, people that reallyinspire me, something that
(39:47):
is so important to me, orI'm going to look at it.
And, because I had that momentwhere I did that, I did this
writing and I looked at, I hadmy, I went to my mentor and he
was really straight up with me.
And he was like, Oh, are youhaving a hard time feeling
like you're, a little differentbecause of the way you look.
(40:07):
Is that hard for you?
This is like everybody else'sexperience, and you're just
going to run away from it and Iwas like, shoot, you're right.
And he had me write outall of the fear that was
coming up because he sawthe fear behind the anger.
And I think it was reallyhelpful for me to have somebody
that I could trust that Icould be so transparent with.
And that was when I sawthat underneath it all,
it was like, I don't thinkthat I have the capacity.
(40:30):
What if I don't have thecapacity to be a social
worker because I'm white?
And also what if I don't havea capacity to do this work and
to like, be in these spacesand not take up space and
not be harmful and to lookat these things regularly?
Mm
And that was that shiftingpoint of, so what, are
you going to not do it?
(40:51):
And I had to be like,no, I can't just not do
it because it's hard.
Yeah.
Yes.
That is, your story is makingme think about why we approach
the work the way that we do withthis, it's clinical in nature.
(41:12):
I'm sure that you've, theway that I facilitated
the classroom is the whatI do anywhere else I go.
So it's very experiential.
It's very, Hey everyone,let's sink into the moment.
And see what's going on here.
To do that, it's the,I believe the missing
piece in any DEI work.
(41:33):
DEI being this hugeumbrella, which includes
this work that you're doing.
This individual work thatyou're doing to undo,
redo, unlearn, relearn allof that other good stuff.
But the, it feels very clinical.
So not that it's our job tobe therapists for people.
But I do feel as people thatare facilitating spaces and
(41:56):
learning, it is our job to beable to hold moments and see
what's happening and get peopleto be in their own moments.
Going later and doing thejournaling and using your
own support therapist and allof that is very important.
And that is, I think,required for many people.
I would highly encourage that.
(42:17):
It's just the way that spacesare facilitated needs to hold
some of it so that it can existand people can learn in the
moments, learn what's happeningand then go figure out what
to do later on their own.
So I just, I appreciate whatyou're saying because it's
just really shining a lighton, I think when people
(42:39):
think of this type of work,especially in the context of
professional settings, whichcan include classrooms, it can
include workplaces or anythingelse that's related to that.
I think we over associateit with like work
professional tasks.
When I'm here, I do this thing.
I'm going to learn this stuffso I can do this at work or
do this in the classroom.
(42:59):
But it's not, like that.
It is not a separate thing thatyou come and do in that space
because it is so personalized.
It touches on the deepestparts of us, all of us.
It cannot be separate from, itcan't be a work tasky thingy.
It can't be thisintellectualized cognitive piece
(43:22):
of information that we learn.
And you were talkingabout that earlier.
It is so much more emotional.
And relational withself and others.
I just, I'm going tosay that until forever.
Like I just, it's just missedso much and it's coming
out of what you're saying.
(43:42):
Yeah, that resonates a lot.
I think we want to doa weekend workshop.
We got it, right?
I got my certificate.
Like for what?
I don't know if that'sgoing to help you do.
And that's not to say exactlywhat you're saying, which is...
Yes, go to those places,learn those things, be in
(44:04):
those spaces, but remember,it's not an, it's not a,
an end, an ends to a means,you don't, I didn't just,
oh, there, I got it, right?
I have to continue to beopen to the fact that, I
said this before and I'llsay it over and over again.
I will never fully comprehendanother person's experience and
(44:26):
I will never fully comprehendmy privilege because I was
never asked to look at it.
And I will, I hope that Icontinue to ask myself those
questions of, okay, whydo I think I deserve that?
Why do I think thisspace needs to be mine?
Why do I think thatI'm entitled to that?
How am I affectingthe folks around me?
(44:48):
Yep.
Yep.
I'm just thinking aboutlike a hundred different
directions to go and I thinkit'd probably be good to
wrap up with some modeling.
Everybody's journeyis different.
If anything, I hope peopleare walking away with this
exists, it always will.
(45:09):
The re like understandingself and not just the things
you like and don't like.
I mean, truly understandingwhat you're experiencing,
why you're experiencingit, where it comes from.
Yeah.
What are your go to's?
How do you get outof your go to's?
How do you process thethings you need to process?
(45:32):
All of that stuff is part of it.
And I think, when people sayself awareness a lot, it's
not just self awareness.
It is, it is thisdeep self work.
I need to have a better wordfor it, but I'm really hoping
people understand that.
And I think it could be helpfulto do some modeling real
time, if that's okay with you.
I'm just gonna ask maybelike one or two questions
(45:53):
and we'll see what happens.
Yeah, okay.
Then, is there anything, whatare you currently doing or not
doing that you, yeah, what areyou not doing that you know you
should be looking at right now?
And like, why areyou avoiding that?
What a greatvulnerable question.
(46:16):
I think what was coming to mindthat I touched on earlier when
I was talking about resourcesand that there were groups of
white social workers and whitefolks having these conversations
and I want to be really clearthat my point that I didn't
utilize them or that they didn'tresonate with me at the time was
not because they're not usefuland helpful and important.
(46:36):
I was just experiencing myown fear of being ignorant.
And I think that the reasonthat your question sparked that
is what we also talked aboutputting the responsibility
of learning about privilegeand what that means on
folks of color is also...
not necessarilythe right answer.
So when I look at what I'm notdoing that I should be doing
(46:58):
and that I do in little waysmore interpersonally that I
need to do more professionallyis having these conversations
with folks about their privilegeand what is their experience
looking at it and what myexperience is looking at it,
because I think that there isthis opportunity to have this
conversation where when peopleget angry and defensive, right?
(47:23):
I don't have to take thatpersonally because I understand
that experience, that itmight be their own stuff.
And am I doing the workto share the importance of
looking at these things.
So I think that was like thefirst thing that came to mind
that I'm not doing, that Iwant to be doing more is having
these conversations with otherwhite social workers about,
(47:43):
Hey, are we continuing tolook at this professionally,
interpersonally in life?
What am I doing tocontinue to learn?
And then I haven't been working.
Like I'm startingmy job on Monday.
I'm a little nervous, but.
I think what I should be doingtoo, is taking the time to
(48:03):
look at, okay, I'm enteringthis new space, And I looking
at, I like this practice thatwe did in school of, we looked
at the critical race theorytenants, and we looked at
actions associated with beingmore social justice focused.
And so I have this sheet thatis direct things that I can
do when I'm entering a space,responding to microaggressions.
(48:27):
Feeling safe doing so becauseI come from a different
place of privilege, right?
Entering a space and askinghow I can be helpful there, or
can I just be a listener there?
Really looking at these aresimple actions that I can take
that align with me looking moreopenly at my own positionality.
(48:50):
And then I think alsoreinforcing this idea of,
it's okay to not know, right?
It's okay to nothave it figured out.
I don't have to come inwith all of the answers.
I think that, ties back to mywanting to, own things, right?
It's okay for me to comeinto a space and ask those
questions of, Is theresomething that would be
helpful for me to share here,
(49:11):
Yeah.
That's what had me thinking.
I want to go back to thefirst thing that you said,
because there was a part of thequestion that you didn't answer.
And it's fine.
It's fine.
yeah.
You were talking aboutnot having conversations
about whiteness withpeople that you knew or
things under that umbrella.
(49:31):
And the other part of thequestion is, why would you, why
are you avoiding doing that?
Oh, that's a good question.
Maybe there's still partof me that doesn't feel
(49:52):
like I know enough andalso that it's hard, right?
I think there's partof me too that doesn't
like being uncomfortableand those are really
uncomfortable conversations.
And I think if I was honestlyto look at it, that, and there's
like a lot of, there's a lotof defensiveness and anger
(50:16):
that arises in people whenyou're like, hey, do you know
that you have this coming up?
And maybe there's part ofme that's oh, that might be
uncomfortable or they mightperceive me a certain way
if I bring that up in them.
Mm hmm.
I think there's this otherjustifying part of my brain
(50:36):
that's you haven't reallyhad the opportunity, like
you haven't really andI'm like, okay, please.
You haven't had the opportunityto, go out in the world and
invite these conversations in?
And I think the reality is,when I have taken the time
to have those conversations,they are uncomfortable.
People don't, they don't want tolook at it, and they don't want
to have that, but- Am I stillscared to be uncomfortable?
(50:59):
What's the worst thingthat's going to happen?
They're going to tell me, Idon't want to look at that.
And I'm going to say,if you don't, it's
actually really hurtful.
Do you want to talk about it?
And they might say no.
Okay, right?
so I think there's probablypart of me that still doesn't
want to be uncomfortable.
Oh, that feels so yucky to shareand look at, but it is true.
(51:21):
it's true and it is very common.
It's, if there was a wordthat's more than common, I
want to say all the time,but it can't be all the time.
It's a lot.
And I know it doesn't feelgood and I appreciate you
being honest about it.
Honest, not with me, butjust honest with yourself.
And I would hope that,translates to you leaning more
(51:44):
into that and taking action.
When you said that, the thingthat came up for me, I thought
this is a great example ofwhat, people of color are
talking about when we have tobe the ones to say something.
(52:04):
You know, cause Becauseif we don't, then things
can keep happening.
And the burden continues tofall on us to say or not say.
So I just imagine otherpeople hearing this,
just like I heard it now.
I'm like, this is likethe, this is an example
of what we're saying.
When we say, you getto be in the space and
say, Oh, it's hard.
(52:27):
They're going to getangry and defensive.
I was like, they definitely,like they're gonna, yeah,
Mm-hmm.
That, that feeling.
The anticipation of somethingthat's so frequent for people
who say something is that's thething that we're talking about.
This is a, it'd be great ifwe can get to a place in the
(52:47):
world where it's shared, Youdon't have to be a person
who identifies as whateverto then speak on a matter.
We can all...
do that together.
And as it stands now, it'slived for the most part as
a thing we know we shoulddo, but the practice part is
what you're talking about.
People do avoid it.
(53:08):
And then again, it comes tous to have to say something.
So that's just whatcame up for me.
And I'm certain when people hearthis, it'll be like, yeah, of
course you don't want to do it.
We already know all about it.
Join the club.
Right.
Yeah.
And that's like another, right?
When we look at like, how are,how am I still doing the work?
(53:30):
And what my privilege oh,I'm just not going to, Oh, I
can just like turn, is thatwhat you're gonna do, Bryce?
I have to ask myself that.
Oh, you're going to put that onsomebody else because it's hard.
And I haven't, and I'm reallyhappy we're talking about this.
Cause I haven't had likedirect experiences yet where
(53:51):
I've seen something and I'vebeen like, Oh, Hey, like
maybe we should address that.
But I know when that comesand I experienced that little,
Oh, this is going to belike, I will think about this
conversation of okay, Bryce
if not you, then who?
And is that right?
Is that where that should fall?
Because there's also like a,when I think about me being like
a job space, like having that,there's a protectiveness, right?
(54:14):
Of I'm gonna, I'm gonna havesomebody else feel unsafe,
when I might be able to addressthis with my own experience
of hey, you might be entirelyunaware because you've never
had to look at this, thatwhat you're, what you just
said is really problematic.
Right.
Yes, and you had saidsomething too about, one
(54:37):
of your rat-, it's the, oneof your rationalizations to
yourself, do I know enoughor I don't know enough?
And I'm like, you kindof also admitted to that.
People don't know.
Like most people do not know.
And no one knows everything,but you know what you know.
You do know what you doknow, and that is shareable.
(55:00):
And there's also a humblenessin helping others from a place
of not knowing everything.
Because the goal isn't togo and just tell everybody
all the things to do.
There is an invitation tosomeone's own exploration
and thinking differently.
That is always going to beon the table for you to do.
People don't have to knoweverything to support people
(55:22):
in their growth, to challengea bit, to learn with people.
There's a co learningprocess that can occur
through helping others.
And I say this not to just toyou, it's to anybody in this
type of situation, anybodywho's wondering if to say or
not say something and whatevertheir internal process is.
(55:43):
Yeah, there's justso much to this.
I don't want toopen another door.
I feel like we can walkthrough that and it'll
be a whole other thing.
But I will just ask isthere anything else that
you want to share on thistopic before we wrap up?
I think just quickly,tying in what you just
said to everything, is,
(56:08):
is that there are going tobe things that will continue
to arise for folks as theylook at these, at this stuff.
And for me, maybe I know thatfor me that little part of
me that doesn't like to feelignorant, or that I don't know,
or they don't have it figuredout, that's probably going
to be the identifier for me.
And if I'm gonna apply tomy practice, to my life,
(56:32):
that it's okay to not know.
Like you said.
I can embody that evenwhen sharing my experience.
And that it's really helpfulthat we start to look for and
identify what are the thingsthat come up for you when
you start to feel like maybethere's something you need
(56:52):
to look at a little deeper.
And it might be differentfor different people.
Some people might have adifferent experience where
they lean all the way in.
Where I like pushed away,but they might lean all the
way in and they might wantto buy all the books and know
all the information and goto all the seminars, but like
looking really behind thatof what is coming up for you?
You shared what you do in theclassroom in a professional
(57:13):
space of what's happeningright here right now for me.
Where is this coming fromand knowing it's okay.
If it's weird andgross and feels.
Yeah, I did not.
I do not like lookingat those things.
But I know that they'rejust, it's essential, right?
It's so importanty'all look at it.
Look at it hard.
Look at it weird.
You know what I mean?
(57:34):
Look at it becauseit's there, right?
It's not going to goaway just because you
don't want to look at it.
And if you're not looking atit, you're living with it.
So just knowing it's okay whenthat weird stuff comes up.
It's okay to be vulnerable.
It's even right now sharingthat Oh yeah, that's so obvious
nobody would want to have thatconversation because people
(57:55):
get angry and uncomfortable.
Oh, that made me feelso yeah, Bryce, come on.
You know what I mean?
That makes me feel sovulnerable and yeah, come on.
Why aren't you need tobe doing those things?
But yeah, I have to feelthat stuff if I'm going
to be able to move throughthe world differently.
So just knowing that folkslike it's okay if it's weird
and hard and feels grossfind the spaces that you can
(58:17):
talk about it write about it.
Look at it, you know Itdoesn't have to define the
way that you continue to live.
It can redefine the way thatyou use that and work with
that to be more helpful.
Yes, I love that.
That is a perfect wrap up.
I'm not even going to addanything on top of that.
I really do appreciate youletting us peek inside and
(58:41):
sharing what you sharedand your vulnerability.
And I know there were acouple of points where
it was like, okay, I'mgonna say this out loud.
Like I saw it.
I appreciate you so much.
That's part of why that'sprobably one of the most
significant reasons why I wantedto bring you on for an episode
because you'll take the deepbreath and you'll, you'll do it.
(59:03):
You'll do it for thesake of modeling, for
people to understand.
If people want to get intouch with you, Bryce, what's
the best way to do that?
Yeah, if we can leave myemail in the description,
I'll put that in my bio.
Please reach out to me.
That's probably the bestform of communication.
And I would love any sortof conversations about this.
(59:26):
We can set up zoomcalls, phone calls.
I'm really open to talking tofolks about their experience.
Perfect.
Perfect.
And I'm also open tosuggestions, resources,
send them my way.
I got to keep learning, got keep
growing.
A lot of things.
Good.
I need them.
Oh goodness.
Thank you so much for watching.
(59:47):
If this was interesting toyou, please like, share,
comment, talk about thiswith people in your network.
Get into dialogue,always reach out.
Visit me atlivingunapologetically.
com.
All my social mediahandles on there.
You can email.
There's free tools and resourcesfor you to deepen your practice.
(01:00:08):
And of course, you willhave access to my book,
Bias Conscious Leadership: A Framework for Leading with (01:00:10):
undefined
Action and Accountability.
Thank you again for watching.
I hope you have a wonderfulrest of your day and
hope to connect soon.
Until next time.
Bye.
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