March 19, 2024 • 55 mins
In this episode of the Living Out Loud Discussion Series, I chat with Gina Amato, a long-time friend, social justice attorney and the directing attorney of the Immigrant Rights Project at Public Council, and we get into the concept of context appropriateness when addressing white supremacy culture in professional settings. We explore the nuances of real-life scenarios and interactions in workplaces, emphasizing the importance of understanding and unpacking the layers of in our identities and being curious of others. Our convo highlights the need for self-awareness and reflection in recognizing and challenging the norms of white supremacy culture, calling attention to the significance of relational approaches and creating spaces for authentic self-expression to invite a safer, more inclusive environment.
Our Guest
Gina Amato Lough is the Directing Attorney of Public Counsel’s Immigrants’ Rights Project. She leads a 30-member team of attorneys, paralegals, administrative staff, and social workers who serve asylum seekers, immigrants in detention, survivors of violent crime, unaccompanied children, and victims of notario fraud. Her team works toward a world where all (im)migrants live with dignity, power, and opportunity.
Gina has been a public interest attorney and community leader for over twenty years. She joined Public Counsel in 2008, and for 14 years, she led the Immigrants’ Rights Project’s Survivor Team. The Survivor Team provides holistic services to immigrant survivors from a trauma-informed, client-centered perspective. In addition, Gina has engaged in widespread policy advocacy to protect the rights of immigrant survivors, and has worked in partnership with governmental and non-profit organizations to launch a campaign to combat notario fraud – a type of legal services fraud that is devastating to immigrant communities.
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To get in touch with Gina Amato, you can contact her here:
- Email: chickawapinc (AT) yahoo.com
Episode Chapters
00:00 Setting the Stage 01:32 Reminiscing Past Experiences and Connections 02:50 Gina's Professional Journey and Personal Background 06:34 Context Appropriateness in Addressing White Supremacy Culture 08:05 Exploring the Concept of White Supremacy Culture 11:47 The Impact of White Supremacy Culture in the Workplace 13:28 Authenticity and Professionalism in the Workplace 25:15 Intersection of Race and Gender in Workplace Norms 28:01 Facing Consequences for Expressing Anger 30:26 The Human Element in Leadership 31:42 The Misconception of White Supremacy Culture 34:25 The Danger of Weaponizing White Supremacy Characteristics 36:49 Intersectionality of White Supremacy Culture 38:39 Personal Experience with White Supremacy Culture 50:51 The Importance of Authenticity in the Workplace 54:10 Wrapping Up: Contact Information and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
They came from a norm thatwe unwittingly adopted that
is from the dominant culture.
When we show up differently,like for me, I, I'm
Latina, I'm Sicilian.
I'm very fiery.
Sometimes I can communicatein a way that's a little.
Um, you know, fiery.
(00:24):
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
And today we were talkingabout context appropriateness
when addressing whitesupremacy culture.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a Relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come up inprofessional settings or in
(00:44):
settings where we feel likewe need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
layers and the nuances.
in those interactions sothat we can learn about
them as a community thatcares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the things thatI say today, any of my
viewpoints, those are my ownand not as a representative
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
(01:21):
All right, and withme, I have Gina Amato.
thanks so much forbeing here today.
I already know it's aboutto be a convo and I am
looking forward to it.
So thank you.
All right, I'm thinkingabout how I've met you
and I can't even count howmany years ago this was.
I know we were working at anon profit together in South
(01:41):
LA and we were working witha similar population doing
very, very different things.
And I just remember youwere always yourself and
you were always a badass.
Like it didn't, like whereveryou went, you just walked in
with this force and you werealso so insightful and caring.
(02:02):
So even though we were in officedoing really hard work, I recall
you being a person that I couldgo to, to talk to you about
anything and you held space.
You are very mucha space holder.
And you did a lot of modelingof living life and being
okay with whatever it was.
(02:22):
And I think that made it okayfor other people to do that too.
And I've never said that to you,but I'm saying it to you now.
I remember that.
Like, you're always goingto be that person that was
strong and also okay with nothaving the strongest moments.
So thank you for thatas I'm recalling it.
And thank you for being here.
(02:43):
Charmaine, thank you so much.
It is an absolute pleasureto be here with you.
I really appreciateyou reaching out to me.
My name is Gina Amato.
My pronouns are she, her, hers.
I am a social justiceattorney who's been
practicing for over 20 years.
I am the directing attorneyof the Immigrants Rights
(03:04):
Project at Public Council,where I've been for almost
16 years, and have spent over20 years in the immigrants
rights movement, uplifting andprotecting immigrants rights.
I think the passion that Ihave for my work comes from
my own personal background.
I am a first generationChicana, born and raised
here in the LA area.
(03:25):
My mom is from Northern Mexico.
My dad was Sicilian American.
And let's see.
I just, So yeah, wemet many years ago.
I don't even know either,maybe I would say maybe 13
years ago, more or less, or10, between 10 and 13 years,
I would say, when I set upa clinic at the organization
(03:46):
you were working at, with theintention of building closer
connections with that, withthe South LA community and
being able to more effectivelyserve that community's needs
by working with you all, socialservice providers and other
leaders in the community.
I remember the firsttime I met you.
I was at a DCFSmeeting in South LA.
(04:08):
You were a young woman andI remember you standing
up and presenting.
I don't remember whaton in particular, but
presenting on behalf of theorganization you worked for.
And I was immediatelyimpressed on just how
intelligent you were, how,what a command you had over
what you were speaking about.
And so when I met youlater on site at the
(04:31):
organization, I think it wasjust a really natural fit.
And I always saw youas an anchor for me and
as somebody who reallysupported me in that role.
And, and made me feel welcomeand at home and, I'm a little
surprised about what yousaid that, that I'm somebody
who modeled, like living,
I don't know what you said,but basically being okay with
(04:52):
things and modeling, humanityor, or I guess what I take it
as like authenticity, just beingauthentic in the workspace.
And you are definitely somebodythat I view as modeling
authenticity and reallyjust modeling, living life
unapologetically, like the nameof your podcast, and pursuing
your dreams, despite what thosearound you might think or say.
(05:16):
Not that people are thinkingnegatively of you, but
I've seen you make reallybig, important decisions,
and then pivot soon after,based on your own internal
compass, your own life dreams.
your own vision for your life.
And that has always lefta huge impression on me.
(05:39):
And I'm, I'm just reallyimpressed by that.
I think that it takes a lotto really follow your gut and
your instinct and to pursuewhat you know is right for you.
So yeah, it's a pleasureto be here with you.
Oh my gosh.
I just need a moment to letthat, I want to receive it.
(05:59):
Yes.
As you said that I was justimagining all of those times
back in the day in likethe lunchroom where each
other's offices, some likevery difficult moments.
Yeah,
Oh my gosh.
It's so true.
Thank you for that.
That meant so, so much,especially on the things I got
going on in my life right now.
Like that really, itjust filled my heart.
(06:22):
So thank you.
That's wonderful.
You're
welcome.
Yes.
Yes.
Well, I'm not a transition tothe topic other than to say,
let's talk about the topic.
And I, I've been using the termcontext appropriateness for
a lot of things, so I'm happyto talk about what it means
(06:42):
in general, but I think it'simportant that we start there
with people so they understandwhat we're talking about when we
say context appropriateness whenwe are talking about addressing
white supremacy culture.
And I know for me, when I saycontext appropriateness, I
mean that there are people thatare learning a lot of things.
And I, I put a lot of stuffunder a DEI umbrella and
(07:07):
that there's so much workthat goes under it and
I'm not saying something'sbetter than the other.
I'm just saying when I say DEI,I know it means a lot of things.
It can mean whitesupremacy culture, it
can mean other things.
What people are learningis information and then it,
they kind of like categorizeit as like good or bad and
then if it's bad you justare never supposed to do it
(07:28):
again or you're supposed todo something all the time.
And what's missing is thecontext appropriateness
which is understanding whatyou're learning so well
that you know how to use it,
when to use it, what parts makesense in these situations, what
parts make sense in others.
That's, that'smissing right now.
So when I think about contextappropriateness for white
(07:50):
supremacy culture, I feellike it's the same thing.
People are learning a lotof stuff and it feels like
it's either this or that.
And I, that's my thought on it.
And I'm curious to knowwhat it means for you.
Yeah.
So I think, just to start off,like when we're talking about
white supremacy culture, Ithink maybe we should spend a
(08:11):
moment on that before we getinto context appropriateness.
So what we're talking about isbasically when, the attitudes,
beliefs, actions, and behaviorsof white people are basically
codified into a culture.
And we see that inside, ourorganizations and workplaces.
(08:31):
So, it can be as large asthe number of hours you're
expected to work, and thisfive day work week, 40 hour
plus week, down to even thedetails of what you wear to
work, what, the tone in whichyou speak, the words you use,
(08:52):
how you respond to something.
It really permeates sortof every aspect, I think,
of our work culture.
So when we're talking aboutwhite supremacy culture and,
and, and really, trying todeconstruct it, we're trying
to look at the ways in whichwe have just sort of adopted,
unwittingly, the customs andculture of of white America,
(09:16):
into our everyday lives.
And, so yeah, I, I think thisis something that has come more
into our consciousness or intomainstream consciousness in the
last few years, largely driven,I think, by that very impactful
article by Tema Okun and allthe work on dismantling racism.
And I find them to betremendously helpful tools in
(09:37):
identifying things at work or
within the work structurethat can be very oppressive,
and can help and can tendto replicate the very
same oppressive structuresthat we're trying to fight
outside of our organization.
So it can be very, very helpful.
But what I think we'refinding is sometimes
(09:59):
there's rigidity in, in theapplication of the principles.
They're new and we're learningit and we're talking about it.
And and I'm not also holdingmyself out as an expert on this
either, but this is somethingthat I've studied over the past
several years and, and I've beenvery interested in becoming more
aware of so that I can try todeconstruct it within my own
(10:22):
practice, within my own teamand, and the work environment
that I'm creating around me.
So, so that's whatwe're talking about.
I'm even a little taken aback,to be honest, by the word
appropriateness, because tome that's one of those words.
Like, well, where is the,what is appropriate, right?
And who's, who's, measureor, you know, uh, opinion
(10:45):
are we using to describewhat's appropriate and
what's not appropriate.
You can fall intothe same trap here.
But something that you andI have talked about is that
one of the characteristicsof white supremacy culture
in the workplace can be,what is it being wed to
the, to the written word.
So basically thisis what it says.
(11:05):
This is the policy.
I'm going to apply thispolicy in every circumstance
without any regard for,as I think you're saying,
context or specifics, right?
The situation.
And so we can, we're seeingthat in this realm of people
taking these characteristicsof white supremacy
(11:25):
culture and applying them.
And sometimes in situationswhere I don't think
they should be applied.
So sometimes we're seeing peopletake those principles of white
supremacy culture and justweaponize them against the same
people that they're supposed tobe, trying to not necessarily
(11:45):
protect, but shine a light on.
So like weaponizing theseDEI tools against communities
of color or people of color.
And also just applying theseprinciples without regard for
the context or the specificssurrounding the situation.
So I know we're talking ingeneral terms, but I just
sort of wanted to set thatcontext for our conversation.
(12:06):
Yeah.
I mean, well you did 10 thingsin a short amount of time
and I'm like, that's veryimportant context to even set
for this to go back and wannabe like, okay, well let's
talk about white supremacyculture is, that's important.
One of my things that I do is.
I think I do stuff sooften it doesn't even flag
for me to be like, that'swhat I'm talking about.
I try to do that and stillI don't always do that.
(12:30):
So I appreciate you sayinglet's go back and describe that.
And even what I would want tojust add as a layer to that
is- To me it's so normal.
It's okay to just saythe words out loud.
It's white supremacy culture.
Some people feel souncomfortable just saying that
and I'm like, it's a thing.
It's fine.
(12:50):
It's not fine.
But it's a thing and it's normaland a lot of people participate
it because it's so normal.
It's not a highly chargedword like that for me.
And I know it's not for you.
And my hope would be thatthat is what happens for other
people over the course of time.
And then you also justhave me thinking about
(13:11):
the word appropriateness.
I don't even know whatthe right word is.
I don't know.
But in that moment, it was like,huh, let me think about that.
And let me see if it makessense to use another word,
or if it is the word, howwould I describe this word?
So it makes sense forwhat I'm trying to say.
And it's not generic andcan be taken a certain way.
(13:31):
So I just wanted tonote those two things.
That's what my responsewas when you said it.
And then you're also inviting.
a conversation around like what?
What is the work thatTema Okun has been doing?
What is that workmeant to, meant to do?
Versus, how it's been used.
(13:51):
You talked a little bit abouthow it's been weaponized.
I think it could be helpfulto talk about what a healthy,
responsible way to use itis beyond, I'm reading a
document and I know this now.
It's, it's meantto do something.
And I'm super curious to knowwhat you think about that.
Mhm.
(14:12):
Mhm.
It has really been likea reflection piece for
us in my workplace.
In the past, maybe likearound five years ago, we
had a, an equity audit done.
We hired a really impressiveconsultant or consultant agency.
They did an audit.
And they uncovered the thingsthat we already knew, which was
(14:33):
that there were a lot of, therewas a lot of structural inequity
happening at our organization.
And as a social justiceorganization, that can be very
much in contrast with the waythat we view ourselves, right?
Because we are here to serveunderserved communities,
to empower people of color,as well as those from lower
socioeconomic backgrounds.
(14:54):
So there can be a blind spotsometimes in social justice
organizations and sort of anunwillingness to look at how
are we replicating the sameoppressive structures outside,
inside the organizationthat we're fighting outside.
So the organizationdid that audit.
And that's where, I don'teven remember which colleague
introduced the article, andwe did some exercises around
(15:17):
it that were so helpful.
And we basically read thearticle, we talked about it,
we unpacked it, and then wedid some exercises where we,
had different sort of stationsaround the room and invited
people to fill out on a stickynote, like an example of that
white supremacy characteristic
(15:38):
at our workplace.
A tangible example that sortof personified whatever white
supremacy characteristicwe were discussing.
And it was absolutelyilluminating to view the, you
know, our sort of everydayfrustrations through that lens.
So for example, we'rea law firm, we're a
(16:00):
nonprofit law firm.
So it's very high stress.
It can be very high volume.
And one frustration consistentlywas that it just felt
like we were always underpressure to make decisions.
And, that time pressurewas always used as sort
of a pre, not a pretext,but like to explain why we
(16:23):
didn't include people inthe decision making process.
Right.
So that's one example oflike, well, we have to
decide this right away.
We don't have time to sort ofcanvas everybody here, so we
just need to make this decision.
And that's something thatwe experienced over and
over and over again, evenfor things that were annual
events or annual occurrences.
(16:45):
So we knew it was coming,but there was still this time
pressure that then precludedlike transparency and inclusion.
And even though we experiencedit, there was no kind of
words for, or language aroundlike what that was, what
we were experiencing untilwe studied that article.
And then it was like, oh.
(17:05):
And I, I wish I had itright in front of me.
I don't, like thattime pre is that, that
perception of having to make
decisions under pressure, thelack of inclusion based on
that, that same time pressure.
It's all in there andit really helped us
view our work experiencemore through that lens.
(17:25):
And think through what'salso so wonderful about
that body of work is thatit does include antidotes.
Like, this is how you canbegin to walk back these
phenomena that's goingon in your workplace.
And that really provideda lot of substance for us
to discuss and to look at.
I do think we, there's alot more work to be done.
(17:48):
I am not in any waysuggesting like, we read the
article and now we're done.
And now we have a wholeother, generation of
advocates who are with us.
So we need to, it'scontinuous, this work.
And, and even we who reallyunpacked the article,
we need to do it again.
And we need to continuethese discussions.
So that's how I think it'suseful is to really be able
(18:10):
to study your work cultureand, and the way that you
operate too, as a manager, asa supervisor from that lens
to ensure that, that you'renot falling into those traps.
But the other thing I wantedto comment on was what you said
about the sensitivity around theterm, white supremacy culture.
(18:32):
And what I see is thatsome people, I think,
confuse the term withracism or overt racism.
And, and we'll become defensiveand not own this, this whole
thing because they're like,I'm not racist, or, I don't
see anything racist here.
This is just a decision beingmade, you know, without, and
(18:55):
so I, I think it's importantto note that while related to
racism and systemic racism,we're not talking about racism.
We're talking about the dominantculture being basically accepted
as the norm, as the right wayto do things, and oftentimes
(19:18):
as the only way to do things.
And othering, other ways ofdoing things, other modes
of communicating, other waysof being in the workplace.
And, even when you thinkabout our shared definition
of professionalism, whatwe think of when it means
to be a professional or,or to act professionally.
(19:41):
These are all conceptsthat we didn't create.
They came from a norm thatwe unwittingly adopted that
is from the dominant culture.
When we show up differently,like for me, I, I'm
Latina, I'm Sicilian.
I'm very fiery.
Sometimes I can communicatein a way that's a little.
(20:02):
Um, you know, fiery,
spicy, you know, and, and so,but it can be very uncomfortable
for people who really expect meto communicate in a very calm
and measured way at all times,because that is the expectation.
(20:23):
So, so I just thinkit's important to
be clear about that.
That when we're talking aboutwhite supremacy, yes, there
is an element of implicitbias and systemic racism,
but that's not exactlywhat we're talking about.
Yes, yes.
I love the fiery spicy thing.
I'm thinking about, when youwere talking about like where
(20:45):
it came from and what we are andwhat we aren't talking about.
When I do trainings for people,I usually start with, Hey,
where did you learn abouthow to be a good leader?
Like, where did that come from?
And some people will comewith ideas like a mentor
or a person they know.
And I say like, where did theylearn how to become a leader?
Like, where did they learn-what was good leadership?
(21:07):
And people can't usually gothat far back, but part of the
history lesson is, hey, didyou know that this is actually
how leadership term developed?
And this is how professionalstandards were developed.
And literally going back tothe historical point in time
when a certain group of peoplesaid, this today, Here forth
(21:31):
is what professional means andthis is what leadership means.
And you can literally track overthe course of time especially
as it relates to leadershipwho created leadership models,
who they were, what theirviewpoint was, what data
or lack of data they used-it was usually because they
felt, they felt like it or usedata to their, to bend it to
(21:55):
what they thought, and thenpresent it and publish it,
and it becomes the new thing.
And that occurred overthe course of time.
And these are also the, thelenses and the models that
people gravitate towards anduse to then do an organizations.
So when I ask, Hey, do youknow where it came from?
Most people don't.
(22:16):
And then when I askquestions, well, what missing
information is there in theseapproaches that you're using?
It's usually, honestly, alot of silence and reflection
around well, I just, Ihaven't thought about it.
And there probably is alot of missing information.
And then from there, it'slike, okay, this is actually
what we're talking about.
You're using stuff thatwas made by people a long
(22:39):
time ago that was meant
to specifically not be for thepeople you're trying to serve.
And this is the problem.
And doing that, Ifound, is helpful too.
Because some people you cansay, Hey, we're all operating
off of a white culture.
(23:00):
Saying that to peoplestill doesn't register,
but taking them back tothe history, it shakes them
up a bit because there'snothing else to really say.
This is part of historyand this is what we're
actually talking about.
I appreciate what you're saying.
It isn't racism.
It is attached to it.
But when we are saying whitesupremacy culture, I just
want to double down on that.
(23:20):
Like we aren't talking about,Hey, you racist person.
We're saying, Hey, y'all, we'veall adopted a thing and we are
all using that thing still.
And so pay attention.
When you were talkingabout how it's used.
I liked the part aroundthe, it's like the shared
language, a lot of thingsthat people are experiencing.
Now there's words forindividuals to understand
(23:43):
and for groups to understand.
And I was also thinkingabout, ways that it's not
necessarily helpful for people.
But one of the things thatcame to my mind was, when I
see people go into a documentlike that or into a process
like that, there's this desireto go straight to anecdotes.
(24:04):
I just, I want to seewhat to do different.
And I believe that one of theintentions of this work is not
to go straight to the anecdote.
It's you reallyneed to understand.
What you are doing and whereit comes from, how some
things can help in certainsituations and how some things
have an impact on others.
(24:25):
When people jump straightto let me solve the problem,
you don't understand what theproblem is in you very well.
You just think let me not tryto do anything and that's not
very insightful and doesn'thelp with self awareness to
stop actions in a moment.
I just noticed that a lot.
(24:46):
So even when we try tocoach people, we usually
pause on anecdotes.
Let's spend time here soyou understand what you're
doing and what your team isdoing and what you all are
modeling for the organization.
And then we can talkabout how you pivot.
I, so I just had to say that.
I just be noticing that.
Do you like, whatare you seeing?
in terms of how organizationsor how individuals might
(25:10):
not be using it in theway it was intended.
Well, you said a lot.
I did.
That's it.
You said a lot.
Yeah.
So, before I even get there,I just feel like I'm kind of
stuck on something that yousaid about the history of
(25:30):
where these norms came from.
And I think something that'soccurring to me that I haven't
really thought so much aboutin my own studies, and I,
but it occurred to me as youwere speaking was just also
in addition to race, likewhat gender plays in this.
Because we're not justtalking about, White culture
creating these norms.
(25:51):
We're talking about whitemen who created these norms.
So when we show up asour true authentic selves
in the workplace, wemeaning nonwhite women,
it's almost like a doubledown effect, right?
That there's thisexpectation that you
communicate in a certain way.
(26:14):
But then it's like there'sa whole other level of
expectation that's attachedto the gender that- So it's,
you see what I'm saying?
That something might notbe appropriate for work
and it's definitely notappropriate if you're a woman.
Like a man might be able tocommunicate like that, but
you woman, that's too much.
(26:34):
We are not comfortable.
So, I have to unpack that somemore in my own mind, but that,
that was really occurring tome of yeah, we really are.
Sort of operating within thismold that is nothing like us
not not in culture and not ingender and and I know there's so
(26:54):
many other intersections that wecould tease out of that, right?
So that's one thing how Isee it show up is just I have
experienced- Feeling, I'll justtalk about my own experience
feeling as if those toolshave been weaponized against
(27:19):
me, in certain instances.
And I don't want to gettoo detailed or talk
about necessarily thosespecific instances.
But you know, as I mentioned,I'm a pretty passionate person.
I'm a passionate communicator.
I'm an advocate.
I mean, I've been an advocatefor over two decades, so
that's who I am at my core.
And, and I have a majorintolerance for injustice,
(27:41):
whether that's againstthe communities that I
serve or against myself.
And there have been times atwork when I have communicated in
ways that were not appropriate,gotten angry, gotten defensive.
I've been very open aboutmy displeasure, for example,
or we even raised my voice.
And I have really facedsome pretty intense
(28:04):
consequences for that.
And I haven't done it often,but there have been a couple
instances over the course ofmy 20 plus years practicing
and I, I do feel like I've, Ihave faced some pretty serious
consequences and mainly justthis sort of stereotype of
you're angry, you're an angry.
(28:25):
You know, you're angry,you shouldn't have
responded that way.
Even when I feel likemy indignation is
absolutely justified.
That it's based in somethingthat I feel is absolutely wrong,
and I have every right to beupset and I have every right
to communicate how upset I am.
I feel like I have experiencedassociates, colleagues, sort
(28:51):
of use those things as like
you're, you're reflectingthese values because you got
defensive or you raised yourvoice or whatever it is.
And really feeling andthis is where this context
appropriateness comes, whereit's well, I don't think those,
(29:11):
what should we call them?
The white supremacist,
The characteristics?
characteristics.
Yeah.
I don't think thosecharacteristics apply to all
situations across the board.
I think they're meant to providea framework for reflection, as
you said, to reflect primarilyfor us leaders in, in the
(29:31):
workplace as to how is theway I do business, how is that
impacting, the people I workwith, and is the way that I
lead commensurate with thesewhite supremacy characteristics?
I don't think, but I thinkthat it's really squarely
like in the workplace.
So using defensiveness,which is one characteristic
(29:54):
that is named.
I think they're talking about,in work related things- are
you defensive about if somebodychallenges you on a decision
that you make, or a policythat you enact, or a benefit
that you've denied somebody?
Are you freaking outevery time somebody says,
I don't agree with you?
That's what I think thearticle is talking about.
(30:15):
I don't think the articleis talking about if somebody
comes out of left field andcomes with some outrageousness,
like whether it's an insultor an attack or whatever.
We're human beings, leadersof, you know, we're humans,
we're not mannequins.
We are going to have moments.
We're going to have thosemoments where we're defensive
(30:36):
or where we make a decisionquickly and don't take
other people's input.
Or where we're focusedon perfection because
it's something that'sreally important to us
and has a big consequence.
Or we are focused on,quantity over quality.
I mean, there will be instanceswhere you are replicating the
thing, the white supremacycharacteristics, but I don't
(30:58):
think that that always means
that you are, encapsulatingwhite supremacy culture.
I think sometimes there arecircumstances that, like I
said, we're, we are goingto act outside of those
parameters and, and that's okay.
And I think it's importantfor us to know when, when
(31:20):
that shift takes place.
Yeah,
yeah, I know I'm talkinggenerally, a little bit
vaguely, I don't knowif I'm being clear, but,
You are being clear.
to me, to me, I understandwhat you're saying.
I think what you're sayingis very much experienced by
many people, so there's that.
(31:42):
And you have me thinkingabout a couple of things.
One is I think that inyour story, this is true
based on your story, andI know if other people had
examples, it'd be the same.
I find that people confuseor conflate the knowledge
from reading stuff onthe paper with now an
(32:04):
understanding of what to do.
People are reading theinformation and then not
putting it into practice orunderstanding how to use it
as a tool to change practice.
It has become a thing withwords that people look at and
then determine, you know, like,BOOP, BOOP, is this or that?
That's what I'mhearing in an example.
I know that happens.
(32:24):
And as you were talking, Ireflected on something that
happened to me a while agoand it's not the same topic,
but from that situation, I wasgetting coaching and someone
was trying to address somethingwith me and they wanted
to keep emailing about it.
And I was trying to figureout the right way to email.
And I was just likereally in this situation.
(32:44):
And my coach said you are notgoing to enter into this word
battle with this person anymore.
And I sat there, I said, Oh mygosh, I just didn't realize it.
And she was explaining, shesaid people either, it's not
just white people who do this.
And this personwasn't even white.
But people who like the words,will kind of like make you
(33:10):
enter into that word spaceand you're there with them.
And you're kind of likebattling until for me, someone
took me out because I was inthere like, you're going to
understand what I'm saying,but nicely, but also here.
So when you were talking, Iliterally saw a person, I have
no idea what your experiencewas that you were actually
talking about, but I wasimagining like a person looking
(33:34):
at words and bringing youinto this word place of like,
this is what is happening.
And you're like, but no, butthis is, and you're, you like
get sucked into a, a word battleof what is it and what isn't it.
And that's not evenwhat the tool is for.
But it's so easy to getdrawn into a situation and
then you end up battlingover a written word.
(33:58):
And that's not even whatit's supposed to be about.
And I could not helpbut notice that.
Go ahead.
And even more ironically,that being wed to the written
word is one of the whitesupremacy characteristics.
So then it's yeah, it'sso, it's so circular.
It's so circular.
Cause you're saying, no,that wasn't my experience.
(34:19):
And they're saying,no, but you did this.
And you're like, it's reallydifficult to get out of.
And, yes, by attachingyourself so much, so rigidly
to the characteristics,you can weaponize them.
And I think you made a reallyimportant point about the
person that you're thinkingof being a person of color.
(34:41):
Again, we're not talkingabout overt racism.
We're not even necessarilytalking about white people.
White supremacy culture canexist in organizations that
are all people of color.
It's not about the person.
It's about the culture.
It's about the expectationsand the norms, the un,
mainly unspoken expectations.
(35:03):
And oh, you see people,people, leaders of color
all the time carryingout or replicating white
supremacist structures, because
that's what we were trained in.
That's what we were raised in,in the same way that I'm sure
we replicate patriarchy becausewe were so been marinated,
marinating in it since birth.
(35:25):
It's the same thing.
It's like the onlymodel we know.
So we step into these rolesand in these organizations
and we replicate them becauseit's like, this is what
it means to be a leader.
It means that I'm powerful.
It means that I getto make the decisions.
It means that all thethings, right, that yeah,
that the power lies with me.
(35:45):
I don't need your input.
We don't need to dothings differently.
This is how we'regoing to do it.
And, and, I have some, therehave been times where I've
experienced that even moreat the hands of leaders of
color who are trying to makea name for themselves or, be
squarely in, in their authorityor authoritative position.
And it's really challenging.
(36:07):
It's really challenging tohave those conversations
because usually there'sa blind spot there.
Well, how can I be promotingwhite supremacy culture?
I'm a person of color.
I came from a lowincome background.
I fight for social justice.
What do you mean I'm embodyingwhite supremacy culture?
And, you know, unfortunatelythose things are not
(36:30):
mutually exclusive.
All those things canexist at the same time.
And so the tools are reallyto, to motivate, encourage
us to reflect on how we'releading and, and how we
can do things differently.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I agree.
And, and you had mentionedthis earlier about the
(36:52):
intersectional piece.
Yes, it's, everybody, no one'sexempt from participating
in white supremacy culture.
And then what you werelifting up earlier is that,
like, intersectional piece.
And you had talked about raceand gender, and then there's
other parts of people'sidentities that makes are
interactions even more nuanced.
Which is why looking at adocument and determining
(37:16):
whether or not somethingis or isn't isn't helpful
because there's other thingsthat aren't in the document
Right.
that are like, what?
Yes, Like context.
Mm hmm.
Yes!
There's people here.
There's people with allkinds of parts of them.
Our histories, our experienceswith each other, our identity.
(37:39):
There's so much there to beunderstood that gives the
context for what it then means.
So you, it cannot bebecause it's on a list.
It means a thing.
It's a thing to look outfor, but what does that thing
mean for this interactionwith two people or a
group or an organization?
That part gets missed, andI believe it gets missed
(38:02):
because it's very difficultfor people to be in that space.
It's super complex.
It's got a lot of layers.
And it's people andpeople get activated
by all kinds of things.
And if we aren't even ableto regulate and understand
ourselves, it's really hardto understand other people.
And it really goes from there.
(38:23):
But I just love how yousaid that it's the context.
That is the context thatwe are talking about.
That's the thing.
Oh, it can be so frustrating.
Oh, I had a thoughtand I just lost it.
Oh, go ahead.
Yeah, no, it really can.
And, and I can give you anexample that's safe to share.
Okay.
I love examples.
(38:44):
thinking of your next point.
Yeah, I had a, an instance,several years ago, many years
ago, with a former supervisorwho is no longer at our org.
And she and I, we have still avery, a wonderful relationship,
so that's why I feel comfortabletalking about this here.
I basically lost my mind on herin the meeting a long time ago.
(39:07):
But I was upset about whatI perceived to be consistent
under resourcing of myprogram that I worked really,
really hard to, to resource.
And so my boss at that timemade an announcement that
the resources that I wasseeking, that she had secured
similar resources, basicallysocial work support for our
(39:28):
clients for another team.
And which meant that allthe other teams within my
like work group had thatsupport except for mine.
And, and I had beenfighting for it for, oh my
goodness, years and years.
So I really took it hard.
And, I kind of smoldered in themeeting, but then I went to her
(39:51):
office and I raised my voice.
I lost my temper.
I was really upset and, I hadbeen there for a long time.
So we had a personalrelationship and, and
I raised my voice and Ilost, I lost my temper.
So in no way am I justifyingthat as like, Oh, it's okay.
(40:12):
You should be able toyell when you want to.
I'm not, I'm notadvocating for that.
But, but I am saying thatthere was a very real
reason for why I was upset.
It was a persistentsituation, um, you know,
over the course of manyyears that led to that point.
(40:32):
I made a mistake by, by showingup in that way, but it, to
me, it felt justified in thesense that it was a systemic
issue that I was upset about.
And, well, long storyshort, that made it into
my evaluation that talkedabout my anger, there were,
there were some pretty steepconsequences for that behavior.
(40:56):
And, and it really, and I feltlike I absolutely was deemed
the angry Latina, and, andI paid a consequence for it.
Ultimately she and I,we got a mediator and we
actually were able to hashout some long history that
kind of led to that moment.
And it really, I can honestlyand genuinely say it cleared
(41:20):
the deck and, and allowed us tohave a wonderful relationship.
And get back to where we were.
So that was really helpful.
But I thought that was a goodexample of how, yes, I could
have handled that differently.
But there was a verylegitimate reason.
It's not like I justfreaked out over something.
(41:41):
But it had very, very steepconsequences for me and,
and absolutely resultedin me, I felt, being
labeled as the angry one.
And, and it kept coming up,not only in my evaluation, but
like in other areas as well.
So I think that's a good exampleof how when people of color,
(42:01):
when women, when we respondto things sometimes, even if
it's justified, if we don'trespond in a way that is the
norm, or I should say, if werespond in a way that makes
people feel uncomfortable,oftentimes we're labeled
(42:23):
as angry or as the problem.
And I think it's a way in whichto ignore the underlying issue.
You know, is to focus on thetone and not the message, which
is one of the white supremacycharacteristics, right?
Focusing on the delivery withoutactually getting underneath, and
(42:44):
understand why are you so upset?
Where is this coming from?
How can I better supportyou and get you the
resources that you need?
The focus is just becomecentered on the response
to the injustice, notthe injustice itself.
There's a few layers in that.
(43:05):
I'm not even sure I'm gonna beable to capture all of those.
I was thinking like, firstof all, that really sucks.
It sucks that thatwas your experience.
It sucks that that'smany people's experience.
There's, part of whatyou're talking about is
like, uh, abusive behavior.
Where someone does something toyou, and then they don't like
(43:27):
what you do to them in response.
And what they do to youin response is this like
systematic way of suppressingyou and making sure you
do not do that again.
And it's very gaslight-y too.
And this happens a lot.
In your example,that's what happened.
(43:47):
Something happened fora long time and then
you have a responseafter this long of time.
And then because peoplefeel like they have a right
to comfort, people feellike they don't really
like emotions or they'reafraid or whatever it is.
And to make sure you don'tdo that again, Gina, we're
(44:09):
going to make sure that youknow, here's your parameters.
You're going to be in this box.
You need to keep it down herebecause I don't like that.
And not necessarily reflectiveof, well, maybe I shouldn't
do this historical thingand do this to this person.
I didn't hear that in the story.
I wasn't in there.
But I didn't hearthat in the story.
I feel like you would havesaid it if it was part of it.
(44:29):
Like, that got missed.
It was, we need to address yourresponse immediately and make
sure it never happens again.
And that's I don't know, it justmakes me really bothered because
I know it happens all the time.
But that's a really tangiblething that many people do,
many leaders do, and I willalso say many white leaders do.
(44:50):
I can't say all whiteleaders do, I can't say no
people of color do, but it'sfor me, heightened, and I
think that's okay to say.
And as I was hearing you, Ifeel like if you are talking
to someone who understandsyour culture or understands
emotion differently and knowhow it's expressed and why.
(45:10):
There's a curiosity thatcomes with it before an
immediate, you need to stop.
Like you need to stop.
I remember at the place thatwe used to work together.
I mean, anything couldhappen on any day.
We were a center whereanyone could walk in.
And I just remember sooften people will walk
through the front door.
And if they were elevated,someone had to come get me.
(45:31):
And it's fine and I would goand they're yelling and I'm
just trying to hear what it isthat they're like caring about.
I they're yelling at me, butI know they're not yelling.
At me, you know, like, now youmight've been yelling at that
person, but my point is someonewho understands emotions and
people who have different waysof expressing themselves may
(45:54):
for a moment before they say,shh, might just be curious
about what is happening and whyit's happening because there's
something else there, not justa problem employee who needs
to chill out and come to me,calm, cool, and collected.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just had to say that.
Get that off my chest.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, and you know,better than I, that this happens
(46:16):
to Black women all the time,that black women are very often
stereotyped for being angry byjust responding to outrageous
things that are lobbed at y'allall day, every day, you know?
And I think that's sucha stark example of this.
It's yes.
You can expect me as a leaderto do my best to not be
(46:39):
defensive, to be inclusive,to be all these things.
But if you come at me with somecraziness, chances are I'm gonna
respond because I'm a human.
And, and, while I will do mybest to be calm, cool, and
collected, I am who I am.
(46:59):
I come from the backgroundthat I come from.
My, I did not grow upin an environment where
people communicate calm,cool, and collected.
I'm sorry.
My mom is Mexican.
My dad was Sicilian.
That's just not, wedon't do that, you know.
so I just think that it'sreally important, to recognize
(47:22):
the injustice of that.
That if you're just goingwith my previous example, it's
yeah, if you are a target ofexplicit and implicit racism
and bias every day and yourespond it's like boom now
you're you're not only gettingmistreated but now we're
(47:42):
gonna stereotype you as angry.
Without looking at howjustified that anger is.
That anger is so justified.
Of course, of coursewomen are angry.
Of course Black women are angry.
You know, it's like, of course.
But, not to say that allBlack women are angry.
out.
(48:02):
understand what you're saying.
And I don't thinkthere's anything wrong
with what you said.
Okay, but I'm just saying,like, when you face an
injustice, you can't beexpected to respond in a
textbook way is what I'm saying.
And there should be more roomfor the humanity that we are,
(48:24):
that is at play and, and thefeelings that we experience
when we're in these situations.
And so, getting back to ouroriginal point, the white
supremacy characteristics,we need to be discerning when
it comes to the applicationof those principles.
And as you said, there arelots of things that should be
(48:45):
taken into consideration whenlooking at whether or not white
supremacy culture is at playin any one given situation.
Yep.
Yep.
You're very good at,bringing stuff back.
You, you, I don't know.
You do that well.
I appreciate what you're saying.
And I also feel like, whatelse would I add to that?
If somebody's listening, andthey think to themselves,
(49:08):
all right, well, maybe I'llentertain you know, doing
something differently.
Like if that's you, Ilike what you were talking
about, the discernmentthat feels so important.
And I, I don't even knowwhat else I would add
other than like the, thetool is, is information.
You know, it's, it's reallyhelpful information to
(49:30):
understand what's happeningin you, understand what's
happening with the peoplethat you're interacting in
the spaces that you're in.
It's not your checklist todetermine if it is or isn't.
If someone's using it as achecklist, like if you're
listening and you are usingit as a checklist, that's not
(49:52):
the intention of the tool.
So be mindful of that.
And, I don't know, you justreally got me thinking on the,
the whole example you just gave,just people who are responsive,
there's these like initialinteractions that people have.
And if I were to pointout anything, it's
please pay attention toyour initial responses.
(50:14):
If you were going tochecklist anything, look
at your initial response.
What is that?
And why is it?
Because if people couldstop there before just
doing something, theymay discover something.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Is there anything else youwould add to what people
could do before we wrap up?
(50:35):
Yeah.
So what I'm thinking about isnot necessarily the antidotes.
I, I agree with you thatit's really important to
reflect and, and to reallylike, honestly reflect,
how am I perpetuating this?
What am I doingthat could shift?
One of the things that Ithink we can do is, is to
(50:56):
try to create more space atwork for people to show up as
their true authentic selves.
Because how can you givesomebody the benefit of
the doubt if you don't evenknow who they are or where
they come from, right?
And so one of the things thatwe started doing in these
more recent years, almost as adirect result of these studies,
(51:18):
is- So we do, with my team,we have weekly meetings, and
the facilitator always hasthe option to do what we call
a true colors presentation.
Which is a presentationon whatever they want.
Most people talkabout their families.
I talked about last weekwas actually my turn and
(51:39):
I talked about my adoptionstory, adopting my daughter.
And I walked them throughsome really personal things
about myself and my history,but things that I think
the vast majority of theteam didn't know about me.
And I feel like by knowingour colleagues, like really
knowing them, who theyare, what's important to
(52:01):
them, what motivates them,it helps in these types
of situations to give themthe benefit of the doubt.
Like, okay, you're not justtotally acting out of turn.
There's something going on withyou or, or yeah, I don't know.
There's so many differentways, but it just gives
you more context as tothat person's behavior.
And I think can helpyou give that person the
(52:23):
benefit of the doubt.
Oh, she's this fiery person.
So, you know, this is just theway she talks or communicates
versus whoa, why is she yelling?
Or why is her voice still out?
Or why is she, herhands moving all around?
I just think it, it gives usanother level of understanding,
which can open us more toempathy and and, and help us
(52:48):
get underneath the tone tothe message and, and really
get to the heart of the issue.
So that's one small thing Iwould say that we can do to,
to promote a more inclusiveenvironment that can help
start to dismantle thiswhite supremacy structure
within our workplace.
(53:10):
And to model it.
I wear these big ol hoops.
I've been wearingthese for years.
I wear really, reallytall boots to work.
Things that wouldn't benecessarily considered
work appropriate.
I try to create little pocketswhere I can be myself and I
can show up as myself and I canmodel that to the people that I
(53:30):
manage and supervise that, thatnot only is it okay, but it's
actually your different-ness,it's your uniqueness
that adds to this environment.
It makes it moreinteresting, you bring a
new perspective, new energy.
And in that way, I think thatwe can begin to create our own
(53:50):
culture that is more inclusiveof everybody that's in it.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I don't think there'sanything to add to that.
I really I really appreciatethe relational aspect of
what you're talking about,so thank you for that.
I think that's agood place to stop.
If people are tellingthemselves, okay, I've gotta
(54:13):
get in touch with Gina, whatis the best way to do that?
Holler, holler at your girl.
Holler at her.
So, let's see, youprobably email me at my,
personal email address.
Should I give outmy personal email
I you, that is a youcall, not a me call.
Yeah.
I would say, yeah, goahead and email me at my
(54:36):
personal email address.
It is chika wap inc@yahoo.com.
I will spell that for you.
It's Chika, C-H-I-C-A-W-A-P-I-Nc@yahoo.com.
Nice.
Nice.
thank you so much, Gina.
If you want to get in touchwith me, you can visit our
(54:58):
site at livingunapologetically.
com.
On there, you'll have socialmedia handles, emails, you'll
have access to my book,Bias Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
If you enjoyed today's episodeand felt like it could be
helpful, please share withpeople on your network,
have conversations, have aconversation with yourself.
share, subscribe, and Ithink that's it for now.
(55:22):
So until next time, bye!
Bye.
They came from a norm thatwe unwittingly adopted that
is from the dominant culture.
When we show up differently,like for me, I, I'm
Latina, I'm Sicilian.
I'm very fiery.
Sometimes I can communicatein a way that's a little.
Um, you know, fiery.
(00:24):
Welcome to anotherepisode of the Living Out
Loud Discussion Series.
And today we were talkingabout context appropriateness
when addressing whitesupremacy culture.
I am your host, CharmaineUtz, a Relational DEI expert.
If you are new here, we areunpacking real life scenarios
and issues that come up inprofessional settings or in
(00:44):
settings where we feel likewe need to be buttoned up.
The goal of every singleepisode is to reveal the
layers and the nuances.
in those interactions sothat we can learn about
them as a community thatcares about diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
As always, the things thatI say today, any of my
viewpoints, those are my ownand not as a representative
of any of the agencies that Iwork for or am contracted by.
(01:21):
All right, and withme, I have Gina Amato.
thanks so much forbeing here today.
I already know it's aboutto be a convo and I am
looking forward to it.
So thank you.
All right, I'm thinkingabout how I've met you
and I can't even count howmany years ago this was.
I know we were working at anon profit together in South
(01:41):
LA and we were working witha similar population doing
very, very different things.
And I just remember youwere always yourself and
you were always a badass.
Like it didn't, like whereveryou went, you just walked in
with this force and you werealso so insightful and caring.
(02:02):
So even though we were in officedoing really hard work, I recall
you being a person that I couldgo to, to talk to you about
anything and you held space.
You are very mucha space holder.
And you did a lot of modelingof living life and being
okay with whatever it was.
(02:22):
And I think that made it okayfor other people to do that too.
And I've never said that to you,but I'm saying it to you now.
I remember that.
Like, you're always goingto be that person that was
strong and also okay with nothaving the strongest moments.
So thank you for thatas I'm recalling it.
And thank you for being here.
(02:43):
Charmaine, thank you so much.
It is an absolute pleasureto be here with you.
I really appreciateyou reaching out to me.
My name is Gina Amato.
My pronouns are she, her, hers.
I am a social justiceattorney who's been
practicing for over 20 years.
I am the directing attorneyof the Immigrants Rights
(03:04):
Project at Public Council,where I've been for almost
16 years, and have spent over20 years in the immigrants
rights movement, uplifting andprotecting immigrants rights.
I think the passion that Ihave for my work comes from
my own personal background.
I am a first generationChicana, born and raised
here in the LA area.
(03:25):
My mom is from Northern Mexico.
My dad was Sicilian American.
And let's see.
I just, So yeah, wemet many years ago.
I don't even know either,maybe I would say maybe 13
years ago, more or less, or10, between 10 and 13 years,
I would say, when I set upa clinic at the organization
(03:46):
you were working at, with theintention of building closer
connections with that, withthe South LA community and
being able to more effectivelyserve that community's needs
by working with you all, socialservice providers and other
leaders in the community.
I remember the firsttime I met you.
I was at a DCFSmeeting in South LA.
(04:08):
You were a young woman andI remember you standing
up and presenting.
I don't remember whaton in particular, but
presenting on behalf of theorganization you worked for.
And I was immediatelyimpressed on just how
intelligent you were, how,what a command you had over
what you were speaking about.
And so when I met youlater on site at the
(04:31):
organization, I think it wasjust a really natural fit.
And I always saw youas an anchor for me and
as somebody who reallysupported me in that role.
And, and made me feel welcomeand at home and, I'm a little
surprised about what yousaid that, that I'm somebody
who modeled, like living,
I don't know what you said,but basically being okay with
(04:52):
things and modeling, humanityor, or I guess what I take it
as like authenticity, just beingauthentic in the workspace.
And you are definitely somebodythat I view as modeling
authenticity and reallyjust modeling, living life
unapologetically, like the nameof your podcast, and pursuing
your dreams, despite what thosearound you might think or say.
(05:16):
Not that people are thinkingnegatively of you, but
I've seen you make reallybig, important decisions,
and then pivot soon after,based on your own internal
compass, your own life dreams.
your own vision for your life.
And that has always lefta huge impression on me.
(05:39):
And I'm, I'm just reallyimpressed by that.
I think that it takes a lotto really follow your gut and
your instinct and to pursuewhat you know is right for you.
So yeah, it's a pleasureto be here with you.
Oh my gosh.
I just need a moment to letthat, I want to receive it.
(05:59):
Yes.
As you said that I was justimagining all of those times
back in the day in likethe lunchroom where each
other's offices, some likevery difficult moments.
Yeah,
Oh my gosh.
It's so true.
Thank you for that.
That meant so, so much,especially on the things I got
going on in my life right now.
Like that really, itjust filled my heart.
(06:22):
So thank you.
That's wonderful.
You're
welcome.
Yes.
Yes.
Well, I'm not a transition tothe topic other than to say,
let's talk about the topic.
And I, I've been using the termcontext appropriateness for
a lot of things, so I'm happyto talk about what it means
(06:42):
in general, but I think it'simportant that we start there
with people so they understandwhat we're talking about when we
say context appropriateness whenwe are talking about addressing
white supremacy culture.
And I know for me, when I saycontext appropriateness, I
mean that there are people thatare learning a lot of things.
And I, I put a lot of stuffunder a DEI umbrella and
(07:07):
that there's so much workthat goes under it and
I'm not saying something'sbetter than the other.
I'm just saying when I say DEI,I know it means a lot of things.
It can mean whitesupremacy culture, it
can mean other things.
What people are learningis information and then it,
they kind of like categorizeit as like good or bad and
then if it's bad you justare never supposed to do it
(07:28):
again or you're supposed todo something all the time.
And what's missing is thecontext appropriateness
which is understanding whatyou're learning so well
that you know how to use it,
when to use it, what parts makesense in these situations, what
parts make sense in others.
That's, that'smissing right now.
So when I think about contextappropriateness for white
(07:50):
supremacy culture, I feellike it's the same thing.
People are learning a lotof stuff and it feels like
it's either this or that.
And I, that's my thought on it.
And I'm curious to knowwhat it means for you.
Yeah.
So I think, just to start off,like when we're talking about
white supremacy culture, Ithink maybe we should spend a
(08:11):
moment on that before we getinto context appropriateness.
So what we're talking about isbasically when, the attitudes,
beliefs, actions, and behaviorsof white people are basically
codified into a culture.
And we see that inside, ourorganizations and workplaces.
(08:31):
So, it can be as large asthe number of hours you're
expected to work, and thisfive day work week, 40 hour
plus week, down to even thedetails of what you wear to
work, what, the tone in whichyou speak, the words you use,
(08:52):
how you respond to something.
It really permeates sortof every aspect, I think,
of our work culture.
So when we're talking aboutwhite supremacy culture and,
and, and really, trying todeconstruct it, we're trying
to look at the ways in whichwe have just sort of adopted,
unwittingly, the customs andculture of of white America,
(09:16):
into our everyday lives.
And, so yeah, I, I think thisis something that has come more
into our consciousness or intomainstream consciousness in the
last few years, largely driven,I think, by that very impactful
article by Tema Okun and allthe work on dismantling racism.
And I find them to betremendously helpful tools in
(09:37):
identifying things at work or
within the work structurethat can be very oppressive,
and can help and can tendto replicate the very
same oppressive structuresthat we're trying to fight
outside of our organization.
So it can be very, very helpful.
But what I think we'refinding is sometimes
(09:59):
there's rigidity in, in theapplication of the principles.
They're new and we're learningit and we're talking about it.
And and I'm not also holdingmyself out as an expert on this
either, but this is somethingthat I've studied over the past
several years and, and I've beenvery interested in becoming more
aware of so that I can try todeconstruct it within my own
(10:22):
practice, within my own teamand, and the work environment
that I'm creating around me.
So, so that's whatwe're talking about.
I'm even a little taken aback,to be honest, by the word
appropriateness, because tome that's one of those words.
Like, well, where is the,what is appropriate, right?
And who's, who's, measureor, you know, uh, opinion
(10:45):
are we using to describewhat's appropriate and
what's not appropriate.
You can fall intothe same trap here.
But something that you andI have talked about is that
one of the characteristicsof white supremacy culture
in the workplace can be,what is it being wed to
the, to the written word.
So basically thisis what it says.
(11:05):
This is the policy.
I'm going to apply thispolicy in every circumstance
without any regard for,as I think you're saying,
context or specifics, right?
The situation.
And so we can, we're seeingthat in this realm of people
taking these characteristicsof white supremacy
(11:25):
culture and applying them.
And sometimes in situationswhere I don't think
they should be applied.
So sometimes we're seeing peopletake those principles of white
supremacy culture and justweaponize them against the same
people that they're supposed tobe, trying to not necessarily
(11:45):
protect, but shine a light on.
So like weaponizing theseDEI tools against communities
of color or people of color.
And also just applying theseprinciples without regard for
the context or the specificssurrounding the situation.
So I know we're talking ingeneral terms, but I just
sort of wanted to set thatcontext for our conversation.
(12:06):
Yeah.
I mean, well you did 10 thingsin a short amount of time
and I'm like, that's veryimportant context to even set
for this to go back and wannabe like, okay, well let's
talk about white supremacyculture is, that's important.
One of my things that I do is.
I think I do stuff sooften it doesn't even flag
for me to be like, that'swhat I'm talking about.
I try to do that and stillI don't always do that.
(12:30):
So I appreciate you sayinglet's go back and describe that.
And even what I would want tojust add as a layer to that
is- To me it's so normal.
It's okay to just saythe words out loud.
It's white supremacy culture.
Some people feel souncomfortable just saying that
and I'm like, it's a thing.
It's fine.
(12:50):
It's not fine.
But it's a thing and it's normaland a lot of people participate
it because it's so normal.
It's not a highly chargedword like that for me.
And I know it's not for you.
And my hope would be thatthat is what happens for other
people over the course of time.
And then you also justhave me thinking about
(13:11):
the word appropriateness.
I don't even know whatthe right word is.
I don't know.
But in that moment, it was like,huh, let me think about that.
And let me see if it makessense to use another word,
or if it is the word, howwould I describe this word?
So it makes sense forwhat I'm trying to say.
And it's not generic andcan be taken a certain way.
(13:31):
So I just wanted tonote those two things.
That's what my responsewas when you said it.
And then you're also inviting.
a conversation around like what?
What is the work thatTema Okun has been doing?
What is that workmeant to, meant to do?
Versus, how it's been used.
(13:51):
You talked a little bit abouthow it's been weaponized.
I think it could be helpfulto talk about what a healthy,
responsible way to use itis beyond, I'm reading a
document and I know this now.
It's, it's meantto do something.
And I'm super curious to knowwhat you think about that.
Mhm.
(14:12):
Mhm.
It has really been likea reflection piece for
us in my workplace.
In the past, maybe likearound five years ago, we
had a, an equity audit done.
We hired a really impressiveconsultant or consultant agency.
They did an audit.
And they uncovered the thingsthat we already knew, which was
(14:33):
that there were a lot of, therewas a lot of structural inequity
happening at our organization.
And as a social justiceorganization, that can be very
much in contrast with the waythat we view ourselves, right?
Because we are here to serveunderserved communities,
to empower people of color,as well as those from lower
socioeconomic backgrounds.
(14:54):
So there can be a blind spotsometimes in social justice
organizations and sort of anunwillingness to look at how
are we replicating the sameoppressive structures outside,
inside the organizationthat we're fighting outside.
So the organizationdid that audit.
And that's where, I don'teven remember which colleague
introduced the article, andwe did some exercises around
(15:17):
it that were so helpful.
And we basically read thearticle, we talked about it,
we unpacked it, and then wedid some exercises where we,
had different sort of stationsaround the room and invited
people to fill out on a stickynote, like an example of that
white supremacy characteristic
(15:38):
at our workplace.
A tangible example that sortof personified whatever white
supremacy characteristicwe were discussing.
And it was absolutelyilluminating to view the, you
know, our sort of everydayfrustrations through that lens.
So for example, we'rea law firm, we're a
(16:00):
nonprofit law firm.
So it's very high stress.
It can be very high volume.
And one frustration consistentlywas that it just felt
like we were always underpressure to make decisions.
And, that time pressurewas always used as sort
of a pre, not a pretext,but like to explain why we
(16:23):
didn't include people inthe decision making process.
Right.
So that's one example oflike, well, we have to
decide this right away.
We don't have time to sort ofcanvas everybody here, so we
just need to make this decision.
And that's something thatwe experienced over and
over and over again, evenfor things that were annual
events or annual occurrences.
(16:45):
So we knew it was coming,but there was still this time
pressure that then precludedlike transparency and inclusion.
And even though we experiencedit, there was no kind of
words for, or language aroundlike what that was, what
we were experiencing untilwe studied that article.
And then it was like, oh.
(17:05):
And I, I wish I had itright in front of me.
I don't, like thattime pre is that, that
perception of having to make
decisions under pressure, thelack of inclusion based on
that, that same time pressure.
It's all in there andit really helped us
view our work experiencemore through that lens.
(17:25):
And think through what'salso so wonderful about
that body of work is thatit does include antidotes.
Like, this is how you canbegin to walk back these
phenomena that's goingon in your workplace.
And that really provideda lot of substance for us
to discuss and to look at.
I do think we, there's alot more work to be done.
(17:48):
I am not in any waysuggesting like, we read the
article and now we're done.
And now we have a wholeother, generation of
advocates who are with us.
So we need to, it'scontinuous, this work.
And, and even we who reallyunpacked the article,
we need to do it again.
And we need to continuethese discussions.
So that's how I think it'suseful is to really be able
(18:10):
to study your work cultureand, and the way that you
operate too, as a manager, asa supervisor from that lens
to ensure that, that you'renot falling into those traps.
But the other thing I wantedto comment on was what you said
about the sensitivity around theterm, white supremacy culture.
(18:32):
And what I see is thatsome people, I think,
confuse the term withracism or overt racism.
And, and we'll become defensiveand not own this, this whole
thing because they're like,I'm not racist, or, I don't
see anything racist here.
This is just a decision beingmade, you know, without, and
(18:55):
so I, I think it's importantto note that while related to
racism and systemic racism,we're not talking about racism.
We're talking about the dominantculture being basically accepted
as the norm, as the right wayto do things, and oftentimes
(19:18):
as the only way to do things.
And othering, other ways ofdoing things, other modes
of communicating, other waysof being in the workplace.
And, even when you thinkabout our shared definition
of professionalism, whatwe think of when it means
to be a professional or,or to act professionally.
(19:41):
These are all conceptsthat we didn't create.
They came from a norm thatwe unwittingly adopted that
is from the dominant culture.
When we show up differently,like for me, I, I'm
Latina, I'm Sicilian.
I'm very fiery.
Sometimes I can communicatein a way that's a little.
(20:02):
Um, you know, fiery,
spicy, you know, and, and so,but it can be very uncomfortable
for people who really expect meto communicate in a very calm
and measured way at all times,because that is the expectation.
(20:23):
So, so I just thinkit's important to
be clear about that.
That when we're talking aboutwhite supremacy, yes, there
is an element of implicitbias and systemic racism,
but that's not exactlywhat we're talking about.
Yes, yes.
I love the fiery spicy thing.
I'm thinking about, when youwere talking about like where
(20:45):
it came from and what we are andwhat we aren't talking about.
When I do trainings for people,I usually start with, Hey,
where did you learn abouthow to be a good leader?
Like, where did that come from?
And some people will comewith ideas like a mentor
or a person they know.
And I say like, where did theylearn how to become a leader?
Like, where did they learn-what was good leadership?
(21:07):
And people can't usually gothat far back, but part of the
history lesson is, hey, didyou know that this is actually
how leadership term developed?
And this is how professionalstandards were developed.
And literally going back tothe historical point in time
when a certain group of peoplesaid, this today, Here forth
(21:31):
is what professional means andthis is what leadership means.
And you can literally track overthe course of time especially
as it relates to leadershipwho created leadership models,
who they were, what theirviewpoint was, what data
or lack of data they used-it was usually because they
felt, they felt like it or usedata to their, to bend it to
(21:55):
what they thought, and thenpresent it and publish it,
and it becomes the new thing.
And that occurred overthe course of time.
And these are also the, thelenses and the models that
people gravitate towards anduse to then do an organizations.
So when I ask, Hey, do youknow where it came from?
Most people don't.
(22:16):
And then when I askquestions, well, what missing
information is there in theseapproaches that you're using?
It's usually, honestly, alot of silence and reflection
around well, I just, Ihaven't thought about it.
And there probably is alot of missing information.
And then from there, it'slike, okay, this is actually
what we're talking about.
You're using stuff thatwas made by people a long
(22:39):
time ago that was meant
to specifically not be for thepeople you're trying to serve.
And this is the problem.
And doing that, Ifound, is helpful too.
Because some people you cansay, Hey, we're all operating
off of a white culture.
(23:00):
Saying that to peoplestill doesn't register,
but taking them back tothe history, it shakes them
up a bit because there'snothing else to really say.
This is part of historyand this is what we're
actually talking about.
I appreciate what you're saying.
It isn't racism.
It is attached to it.
But when we are saying whitesupremacy culture, I just
want to double down on that.
(23:20):
Like we aren't talking about,Hey, you racist person.
We're saying, Hey, y'all, we'veall adopted a thing and we are
all using that thing still.
And so pay attention.
When you were talkingabout how it's used.
I liked the part aroundthe, it's like the shared
language, a lot of thingsthat people are experiencing.
Now there's words forindividuals to understand
(23:43):
and for groups to understand.
And I was also thinkingabout, ways that it's not
necessarily helpful for people.
But one of the things thatcame to my mind was, when I
see people go into a documentlike that or into a process
like that, there's this desireto go straight to anecdotes.
(24:04):
I just, I want to seewhat to do different.
And I believe that one of theintentions of this work is not
to go straight to the anecdote.
It's you reallyneed to understand.
What you are doing and whereit comes from, how some
things can help in certainsituations and how some things
have an impact on others.
(24:25):
When people jump straightto let me solve the problem,
you don't understand what theproblem is in you very well.
You just think let me not tryto do anything and that's not
very insightful and doesn'thelp with self awareness to
stop actions in a moment.
I just noticed that a lot.
(24:46):
So even when we try tocoach people, we usually
pause on anecdotes.
Let's spend time here soyou understand what you're
doing and what your team isdoing and what you all are
modeling for the organization.
And then we can talkabout how you pivot.
I, so I just had to say that.
I just be noticing that.
Do you like, whatare you seeing?
in terms of how organizationsor how individuals might
(25:10):
not be using it in theway it was intended.
Well, you said a lot.
I did.
That's it.
You said a lot.
Yeah.
So, before I even get there,I just feel like I'm kind of
stuck on something that yousaid about the history of
(25:30):
where these norms came from.
And I think something that'soccurring to me that I haven't
really thought so much aboutin my own studies, and I,
but it occurred to me as youwere speaking was just also
in addition to race, likewhat gender plays in this.
Because we're not justtalking about, White culture
creating these norms.
(25:51):
We're talking about whitemen who created these norms.
So when we show up asour true authentic selves
in the workplace, wemeaning nonwhite women,
it's almost like a doubledown effect, right?
That there's thisexpectation that you
communicate in a certain way.
(26:14):
But then it's like there'sa whole other level of
expectation that's attachedto the gender that- So it's,
you see what I'm saying?
That something might notbe appropriate for work
and it's definitely notappropriate if you're a woman.
Like a man might be able tocommunicate like that, but
you woman, that's too much.
(26:34):
We are not comfortable.
So, I have to unpack that somemore in my own mind, but that,
that was really occurring tome of yeah, we really are.
Sort of operating within thismold that is nothing like us
not not in culture and not ingender and and I know there's so
(26:54):
many other intersections that wecould tease out of that, right?
So that's one thing how Isee it show up is just I have
experienced- Feeling, I'll justtalk about my own experience
feeling as if those toolshave been weaponized against
(27:19):
me, in certain instances.
And I don't want to gettoo detailed or talk
about necessarily thosespecific instances.
But you know, as I mentioned,I'm a pretty passionate person.
I'm a passionate communicator.
I'm an advocate.
I mean, I've been an advocatefor over two decades, so
that's who I am at my core.
And, and I have a majorintolerance for injustice,
(27:41):
whether that's againstthe communities that I
serve or against myself.
And there have been times atwork when I have communicated in
ways that were not appropriate,gotten angry, gotten defensive.
I've been very open aboutmy displeasure, for example,
or we even raised my voice.
And I have really facedsome pretty intense
(28:04):
consequences for that.
And I haven't done it often,but there have been a couple
instances over the course ofmy 20 plus years practicing
and I, I do feel like I've, Ihave faced some pretty serious
consequences and mainly justthis sort of stereotype of
you're angry, you're an angry.
(28:25):
You know, you're angry,you shouldn't have
responded that way.
Even when I feel likemy indignation is
absolutely justified.
That it's based in somethingthat I feel is absolutely wrong,
and I have every right to beupset and I have every right
to communicate how upset I am.
I feel like I have experiencedassociates, colleagues, sort
(28:51):
of use those things as like
you're, you're reflectingthese values because you got
defensive or you raised yourvoice or whatever it is.
And really feeling andthis is where this context
appropriateness comes, whereit's well, I don't think those,
(29:11):
what should we call them?
The white supremacist,
The characteristics?
characteristics.
Yeah.
I don't think thosecharacteristics apply to all
situations across the board.
I think they're meant to providea framework for reflection, as
you said, to reflect primarilyfor us leaders in, in the
(29:31):
workplace as to how is theway I do business, how is that
impacting, the people I workwith, and is the way that I
lead commensurate with thesewhite supremacy characteristics?
I don't think, but I thinkthat it's really squarely
like in the workplace.
So using defensiveness,which is one characteristic
(29:54):
that is named.
I think they're talking about,in work related things- are
you defensive about if somebodychallenges you on a decision
that you make, or a policythat you enact, or a benefit
that you've denied somebody?
Are you freaking outevery time somebody says,
I don't agree with you?
That's what I think thearticle is talking about.
(30:15):
I don't think the articleis talking about if somebody
comes out of left field andcomes with some outrageousness,
like whether it's an insultor an attack or whatever.
We're human beings, leadersof, you know, we're humans,
we're not mannequins.
We are going to have moments.
We're going to have thosemoments where we're defensive
(30:36):
or where we make a decisionquickly and don't take
other people's input.
Or where we're focusedon perfection because
it's something that'sreally important to us
and has a big consequence.
Or we are focused on,quantity over quality.
I mean, there will be instanceswhere you are replicating the
thing, the white supremacycharacteristics, but I don't
(30:58):
think that that always means
that you are, encapsulatingwhite supremacy culture.
I think sometimes there arecircumstances that, like I
said, we're, we are goingto act outside of those
parameters and, and that's okay.
And I think it's importantfor us to know when, when
(31:20):
that shift takes place.
Yeah,
yeah, I know I'm talkinggenerally, a little bit
vaguely, I don't knowif I'm being clear, but,
You are being clear.
to me, to me, I understandwhat you're saying.
I think what you're sayingis very much experienced by
many people, so there's that.
(31:42):
And you have me thinkingabout a couple of things.
One is I think that inyour story, this is true
based on your story, andI know if other people had
examples, it'd be the same.
I find that people confuseor conflate the knowledge
from reading stuff onthe paper with now an
(32:04):
understanding of what to do.
People are reading theinformation and then not
putting it into practice orunderstanding how to use it
as a tool to change practice.
It has become a thing withwords that people look at and
then determine, you know, like,BOOP, BOOP, is this or that?
That's what I'mhearing in an example.
I know that happens.
(32:24):
And as you were talking, Ireflected on something that
happened to me a while agoand it's not the same topic,
but from that situation, I wasgetting coaching and someone
was trying to address somethingwith me and they wanted
to keep emailing about it.
And I was trying to figureout the right way to email.
And I was just likereally in this situation.
(32:44):
And my coach said you are notgoing to enter into this word
battle with this person anymore.
And I sat there, I said, Oh mygosh, I just didn't realize it.
And she was explaining, shesaid people either, it's not
just white people who do this.
And this personwasn't even white.
But people who like the words,will kind of like make you
(33:10):
enter into that word spaceand you're there with them.
And you're kind of likebattling until for me, someone
took me out because I was inthere like, you're going to
understand what I'm saying,but nicely, but also here.
So when you were talking, Iliterally saw a person, I have
no idea what your experiencewas that you were actually
talking about, but I wasimagining like a person looking
(33:34):
at words and bringing youinto this word place of like,
this is what is happening.
And you're like, but no, butthis is, and you're, you like
get sucked into a, a word battleof what is it and what isn't it.
And that's not evenwhat the tool is for.
But it's so easy to getdrawn into a situation and
then you end up battlingover a written word.
(33:58):
And that's not even whatit's supposed to be about.
And I could not helpbut notice that.
Go ahead.
And even more ironically,that being wed to the written
word is one of the whitesupremacy characteristics.
So then it's yeah, it'sso, it's so circular.
It's so circular.
Cause you're saying, no,that wasn't my experience.
(34:19):
And they're saying,no, but you did this.
And you're like, it's reallydifficult to get out of.
And, yes, by attachingyourself so much, so rigidly
to the characteristics,you can weaponize them.
And I think you made a reallyimportant point about the
person that you're thinkingof being a person of color.
(34:41):
Again, we're not talkingabout overt racism.
We're not even necessarilytalking about white people.
White supremacy culture canexist in organizations that
are all people of color.
It's not about the person.
It's about the culture.
It's about the expectationsand the norms, the un,
mainly unspoken expectations.
(35:03):
And oh, you see people,people, leaders of color
all the time carryingout or replicating white
supremacist structures, because
that's what we were trained in.
That's what we were raised in,in the same way that I'm sure
we replicate patriarchy becausewe were so been marinated,
marinating in it since birth.
(35:25):
It's the same thing.
It's like the onlymodel we know.
So we step into these rolesand in these organizations
and we replicate them becauseit's like, this is what
it means to be a leader.
It means that I'm powerful.
It means that I getto make the decisions.
It means that all thethings, right, that yeah,
that the power lies with me.
(35:45):
I don't need your input.
We don't need to dothings differently.
This is how we'regoing to do it.
And, and, I have some, therehave been times where I've
experienced that even moreat the hands of leaders of
color who are trying to makea name for themselves or, be
squarely in, in their authorityor authoritative position.
And it's really challenging.
(36:07):
It's really challenging tohave those conversations
because usually there'sa blind spot there.
Well, how can I be promotingwhite supremacy culture?
I'm a person of color.
I came from a lowincome background.
I fight for social justice.
What do you mean I'm embodyingwhite supremacy culture?
And, you know, unfortunatelythose things are not
(36:30):
mutually exclusive.
All those things canexist at the same time.
And so the tools are reallyto, to motivate, encourage
us to reflect on how we'releading and, and how we
can do things differently.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I agree.
And, and you had mentionedthis earlier about the
(36:52):
intersectional piece.
Yes, it's, everybody, no one'sexempt from participating
in white supremacy culture.
And then what you werelifting up earlier is that,
like, intersectional piece.
And you had talked about raceand gender, and then there's
other parts of people'sidentities that makes are
interactions even more nuanced.
Which is why looking at adocument and determining
(37:16):
whether or not somethingis or isn't isn't helpful
because there's other thingsthat aren't in the document
Right.
that are like, what?
Yes, Like context.
Mm hmm.
Yes!
There's people here.
There's people with allkinds of parts of them.
Our histories, our experienceswith each other, our identity.
(37:39):
There's so much there to beunderstood that gives the
context for what it then means.
So you, it cannot bebecause it's on a list.
It means a thing.
It's a thing to look outfor, but what does that thing
mean for this interactionwith two people or a
group or an organization?
That part gets missed, andI believe it gets missed
(38:02):
because it's very difficultfor people to be in that space.
It's super complex.
It's got a lot of layers.
And it's people andpeople get activated
by all kinds of things.
And if we aren't even ableto regulate and understand
ourselves, it's really hardto understand other people.
And it really goes from there.
(38:23):
But I just love how yousaid that it's the context.
That is the context thatwe are talking about.
That's the thing.
Oh, it can be so frustrating.
Oh, I had a thoughtand I just lost it.
Oh, go ahead.
Yeah, no, it really can.
And, and I can give you anexample that's safe to share.
Okay.
I love examples.
(38:44):
thinking of your next point.
Yeah, I had a, an instance,several years ago, many years
ago, with a former supervisorwho is no longer at our org.
And she and I, we have still avery, a wonderful relationship,
so that's why I feel comfortabletalking about this here.
I basically lost my mind on herin the meeting a long time ago.
(39:07):
But I was upset about whatI perceived to be consistent
under resourcing of myprogram that I worked really,
really hard to, to resource.
And so my boss at that timemade an announcement that
the resources that I wasseeking, that she had secured
similar resources, basicallysocial work support for our
(39:28):
clients for another team.
And which meant that allthe other teams within my
like work group had thatsupport except for mine.
And, and I had beenfighting for it for, oh my
goodness, years and years.
So I really took it hard.
And, I kind of smoldered in themeeting, but then I went to her
(39:51):
office and I raised my voice.
I lost my temper.
I was really upset and, I hadbeen there for a long time.
So we had a personalrelationship and, and
I raised my voice and Ilost, I lost my temper.
So in no way am I justifyingthat as like, Oh, it's okay.
(40:12):
You should be able toyell when you want to.
I'm not, I'm notadvocating for that.
But, but I am saying thatthere was a very real
reason for why I was upset.
It was a persistentsituation, um, you know,
over the course of manyyears that led to that point.
(40:32):
I made a mistake by, by showingup in that way, but it, to
me, it felt justified in thesense that it was a systemic
issue that I was upset about.
And, well, long storyshort, that made it into
my evaluation that talkedabout my anger, there were,
there were some pretty steepconsequences for that behavior.
(40:56):
And, and it really, and I feltlike I absolutely was deemed
the angry Latina, and, andI paid a consequence for it.
Ultimately she and I,we got a mediator and we
actually were able to hashout some long history that
kind of led to that moment.
And it really, I can honestlyand genuinely say it cleared
(41:20):
the deck and, and allowed us tohave a wonderful relationship.
And get back to where we were.
So that was really helpful.
But I thought that was a goodexample of how, yes, I could
have handled that differently.
But there was a verylegitimate reason.
It's not like I justfreaked out over something.
(41:41):
But it had very, very steepconsequences for me and,
and absolutely resultedin me, I felt, being
labeled as the angry one.
And, and it kept coming up,not only in my evaluation, but
like in other areas as well.
So I think that's a good exampleof how when people of color,
(42:01):
when women, when we respondto things sometimes, even if
it's justified, if we don'trespond in a way that is the
norm, or I should say, if werespond in a way that makes
people feel uncomfortable,oftentimes we're labeled
(42:23):
as angry or as the problem.
And I think it's a way in whichto ignore the underlying issue.
You know, is to focus on thetone and not the message, which
is one of the white supremacycharacteristics, right?
Focusing on the delivery withoutactually getting underneath, and
(42:44):
understand why are you so upset?
Where is this coming from?
How can I better supportyou and get you the
resources that you need?
The focus is just becomecentered on the response
to the injustice, notthe injustice itself.
There's a few layers in that.
(43:05):
I'm not even sure I'm gonna beable to capture all of those.
I was thinking like, firstof all, that really sucks.
It sucks that thatwas your experience.
It sucks that that'smany people's experience.
There's, part of whatyou're talking about is
like, uh, abusive behavior.
Where someone does something toyou, and then they don't like
(43:27):
what you do to them in response.
And what they do to youin response is this like
systematic way of suppressingyou and making sure you
do not do that again.
And it's very gaslight-y too.
And this happens a lot.
In your example,that's what happened.
(43:47):
Something happened fora long time and then
you have a responseafter this long of time.
And then because peoplefeel like they have a right
to comfort, people feellike they don't really
like emotions or they'reafraid or whatever it is.
And to make sure you don'tdo that again, Gina, we're
(44:09):
going to make sure that youknow, here's your parameters.
You're going to be in this box.
You need to keep it down herebecause I don't like that.
And not necessarily reflectiveof, well, maybe I shouldn't
do this historical thingand do this to this person.
I didn't hear that in the story.
I wasn't in there.
But I didn't hearthat in the story.
I feel like you would havesaid it if it was part of it.
(44:29):
Like, that got missed.
It was, we need to address yourresponse immediately and make
sure it never happens again.
And that's I don't know, it justmakes me really bothered because
I know it happens all the time.
But that's a really tangiblething that many people do,
many leaders do, and I willalso say many white leaders do.
(44:50):
I can't say all whiteleaders do, I can't say no
people of color do, but it'sfor me, heightened, and I
think that's okay to say.
And as I was hearing you, Ifeel like if you are talking
to someone who understandsyour culture or understands
emotion differently and knowhow it's expressed and why.
(45:10):
There's a curiosity thatcomes with it before an
immediate, you need to stop.
Like you need to stop.
I remember at the place thatwe used to work together.
I mean, anything couldhappen on any day.
We were a center whereanyone could walk in.
And I just remember sooften people will walk
through the front door.
And if they were elevated,someone had to come get me.
(45:31):
And it's fine and I would goand they're yelling and I'm
just trying to hear what it isthat they're like caring about.
I they're yelling at me, butI know they're not yelling.
At me, you know, like, now youmight've been yelling at that
person, but my point is someonewho understands emotions and
people who have different waysof expressing themselves may
(45:54):
for a moment before they say,shh, might just be curious
about what is happening and whyit's happening because there's
something else there, not justa problem employee who needs
to chill out and come to me,calm, cool, and collected.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just had to say that.
Get that off my chest.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, and you know,better than I, that this happens
(46:16):
to Black women all the time,that black women are very often
stereotyped for being angry byjust responding to outrageous
things that are lobbed at y'allall day, every day, you know?
And I think that's sucha stark example of this.
It's yes.
You can expect me as a leaderto do my best to not be
(46:39):
defensive, to be inclusive,to be all these things.
But if you come at me with somecraziness, chances are I'm gonna
respond because I'm a human.
And, and, while I will do mybest to be calm, cool, and
collected, I am who I am.
(46:59):
I come from the backgroundthat I come from.
My, I did not grow upin an environment where
people communicate calm,cool, and collected.
I'm sorry.
My mom is Mexican.
My dad was Sicilian.
That's just not, wedon't do that, you know.
so I just think that it'sreally important, to recognize
(47:22):
the injustice of that.
That if you're just goingwith my previous example, it's
yeah, if you are a target ofexplicit and implicit racism
and bias every day and yourespond it's like boom now
you're you're not only gettingmistreated but now we're
(47:42):
gonna stereotype you as angry.
Without looking at howjustified that anger is.
That anger is so justified.
Of course, of coursewomen are angry.
Of course Black women are angry.
You know, it's like, of course.
But, not to say that allBlack women are angry.
out.
(48:02):
understand what you're saying.
And I don't thinkthere's anything wrong
with what you said.
Okay, but I'm just saying,like, when you face an
injustice, you can't beexpected to respond in a
textbook way is what I'm saying.
And there should be more roomfor the humanity that we are,
(48:24):
that is at play and, and thefeelings that we experience
when we're in these situations.
And so, getting back to ouroriginal point, the white
supremacy characteristics,we need to be discerning when
it comes to the applicationof those principles.
And as you said, there arelots of things that should be
(48:45):
taken into consideration whenlooking at whether or not white
supremacy culture is at playin any one given situation.
Yep.
Yep.
You're very good at,bringing stuff back.
You, you, I don't know.
You do that well.
I appreciate what you're saying.
And I also feel like, whatelse would I add to that?
If somebody's listening, andthey think to themselves,
(49:08):
all right, well, maybe I'llentertain you know, doing
something differently.
Like if that's you, Ilike what you were talking
about, the discernmentthat feels so important.
And I, I don't even knowwhat else I would add
other than like the, thetool is, is information.
You know, it's, it's reallyhelpful information to
(49:30):
understand what's happeningin you, understand what's
happening with the peoplethat you're interacting in
the spaces that you're in.
It's not your checklist todetermine if it is or isn't.
If someone's using it as achecklist, like if you're
listening and you are usingit as a checklist, that's not
(49:52):
the intention of the tool.
So be mindful of that.
And, I don't know, you justreally got me thinking on the,
the whole example you just gave,just people who are responsive,
there's these like initialinteractions that people have.
And if I were to pointout anything, it's
please pay attention toyour initial responses.
(50:14):
If you were going tochecklist anything, look
at your initial response.
What is that?
And why is it?
Because if people couldstop there before just
doing something, theymay discover something.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Is there anything else youwould add to what people
could do before we wrap up?
(50:35):
Yeah.
So what I'm thinking about isnot necessarily the antidotes.
I, I agree with you thatit's really important to
reflect and, and to reallylike, honestly reflect,
how am I perpetuating this?
What am I doingthat could shift?
One of the things that Ithink we can do is, is to
(50:56):
try to create more space atwork for people to show up as
their true authentic selves.
Because how can you givesomebody the benefit of
the doubt if you don't evenknow who they are or where
they come from, right?
And so one of the things thatwe started doing in these
more recent years, almost as adirect result of these studies,
(51:18):
is- So we do, with my team,we have weekly meetings, and
the facilitator always hasthe option to do what we call
a true colors presentation.
Which is a presentationon whatever they want.
Most people talkabout their families.
I talked about last weekwas actually my turn and
(51:39):
I talked about my adoptionstory, adopting my daughter.
And I walked them throughsome really personal things
about myself and my history,but things that I think
the vast majority of theteam didn't know about me.
And I feel like by knowingour colleagues, like really
knowing them, who theyare, what's important to
(52:01):
them, what motivates them,it helps in these types
of situations to give themthe benefit of the doubt.
Like, okay, you're not justtotally acting out of turn.
There's something going on withyou or, or yeah, I don't know.
There's so many differentways, but it just gives
you more context as tothat person's behavior.
And I think can helpyou give that person the
(52:23):
benefit of the doubt.
Oh, she's this fiery person.
So, you know, this is just theway she talks or communicates
versus whoa, why is she yelling?
Or why is her voice still out?
Or why is she, herhands moving all around?
I just think it, it gives usanother level of understanding,
which can open us more toempathy and and, and help us
(52:48):
get underneath the tone tothe message and, and really
get to the heart of the issue.
So that's one small thing Iwould say that we can do to,
to promote a more inclusiveenvironment that can help
start to dismantle thiswhite supremacy structure
within our workplace.
(53:10):
And to model it.
I wear these big ol hoops.
I've been wearingthese for years.
I wear really, reallytall boots to work.
Things that wouldn't benecessarily considered
work appropriate.
I try to create little pocketswhere I can be myself and I
can show up as myself and I canmodel that to the people that I
(53:30):
manage and supervise that, thatnot only is it okay, but it's
actually your different-ness,it's your uniqueness
that adds to this environment.
It makes it moreinteresting, you bring a
new perspective, new energy.
And in that way, I think thatwe can begin to create our own
(53:50):
culture that is more inclusiveof everybody that's in it.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I don't think there'sanything to add to that.
I really I really appreciatethe relational aspect of
what you're talking about,so thank you for that.
I think that's agood place to stop.
If people are tellingthemselves, okay, I've gotta
(54:13):
get in touch with Gina, whatis the best way to do that?
Holler, holler at your girl.
Holler at her.
So, let's see, youprobably email me at my,
personal email address.
Should I give outmy personal email
I you, that is a youcall, not a me call.
Yeah.
I would say, yeah, goahead and email me at my
(54:36):
personal email address.
It is chika wap inc@yahoo.com.
I will spell that for you.
It's Chika, C-H-I-C-A-W-A-P-I-Nc@yahoo.com.
Nice.
Nice.
thank you so much, Gina.
If you want to get in touchwith me, you can visit our
(54:58):
site at livingunapologetically.
com.
On there, you'll have socialmedia handles, emails, you'll
have access to my book,Bias Conscious Leadership:
A Framework for Leading withAction and Accountability.
If you enjoyed today's episodeand felt like it could be
helpful, please share withpeople on your network,
have conversations, have aconversation with yourself.
share, subscribe, and Ithink that's it for now.
(55:22):
So until next time, bye!
Bye.
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