Abstract Thought and the Birth of the Imagination

Today Dr. Josh Stout discusses the growth of the brain and how that related to our change in diet from mostly carbohydrate based high fiber roots to a more meat rich diet.

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
Friday,
September
29th.
And
it
is
raining.
This
is
episode
three. 13 00:00:18,921 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
All
right.
This
is
Dr.
Stout
picking
up
where
we
left
off
last
week.
We
are
talking
about
the
growth
of
the
brain,
how
that
related
to
change
in
diet
from
mostly

(00:30):
carbohydrate
based
high
fiber
roots
to
a
more
meat
rich
diet.
Still
a
lot
of
digging
for
roots,
but
now
it's
changing
to
sort
of
softer
and
higher
calorie
content
meat
and
that
this
was
enabling
a
huge
expansion
of
brain

(00:50):
growth.
And
so
there
was
the
coevolution
of
our
tools
and
our
brains.
So
we
got
tools
that
could
get
through
hydes
and
get
into
bone
marrow
and
supply
the
fat
that
our
developing
brains
would
have
needed
as
infants
and
and
toddlers
as
they're
as
they're

(01:10):
expanding
really
rapidly.
So
in
evolution,
there
are
often
major
changes
and
then
things
sort
of
coast
along
for
a
while
and
then
there's
more
major
changes
in
human
evolution.
Interestingly,
the
brain
continued
to
get
larger
over
a
long
period
of
time,
so
there
was
probably
a
continuous
improvement

(01:31):
in
the
diet.
So
we
would
have
gone
from
being
confrontational
scavengers
running
out
to
a
piece
of
meat
and
scaring
the
hyenas
away
to
actual
hunters.
And
so
our
pre
adaptations
for
being
bipeds,
for
being
able
to
run
long
distances
would
have
allowed
us
to
do
things
like
confrontational
scavenging,
not
sorry,
not
confrontational,
scavenging,

(01:51):
persistence,
hunting.
So
we
would
have
been
able
to
just
run
at
an
animal
until
it
collapsed
from
exhaustion.
So
we
are
much
like
we
have
extra
large
brains,
which
are
what
we
notice
all
the
time.
We
are
also
unusually
efficient
at
long
distance
movement
in
a
way
that
at
noon

(02:11):
in
the
middle
of
the
day,
if
we
chase
a
large
gazelle,
we
can
run
it
to
death
and
we
would
actually
target
the
mature
males
because
they're
heavier.
It's
harder
for
them
to
run.
And
we
do
it
right
in
the
middle
of
the
day
when
it's
hottest
for
them
because
we're
the
only
things
that
sweat. 351 00:02:25,311 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
How
long
how
long
did
this
did
this
transition
take
from. 363 00:02:28,551 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
So
this
is
probably
the
next
million
and
a
half

(02:31):
years.
Things
are
going
almost
logarithmic
faster.
So
it's
4
million
years,
then
it's
2
million
years.
And
the
next
thing
we're
going
to
be
looking
at
is
200,000
years.
So
it
was,
you
know,
first
is
doubling
and
then
it's
powers
of
ten.
Things
are
going
much,
much
faster.
So
the
brain
is
getting
bigger,
we're
having
more
capabilities
and

(02:51):
then
we
discover
fire
and
so
fire
becomes
one
of
our
other
tools
that
we
co-evolved
with.
And
between
that
and
the
the
stone
tools
are
our
ability
to
digest
food
starts
to
improve.
We're
able
to
get
food
digested
essentially
outside
of
our
bodies.
We
mash
it
up,
we
cook
it
up
until
fire.
Everything
had
been
raw.

(03:12):
And
so
now
what
fire
does
for
you
is
it
breaks
apart.
The
food
makes
it
much
easier
to
absorb. 514 00:03:17,451 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Even
the
meat
had
been
raw. 521 00:03:18,801 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Even
the
meat
had
been
raw,
and
we
might
have
cut
it
and
pounded
it
a
little
bit
to
to
soften
it
up.
But,
you
know,
we
have
that
saying
sit
around
and
chew
the
fat.
Everything
was
really,
really
tough.
And
certainly
anything
you
pulled
off
of
a
dried
carcass
on
the
Serengeti
that
the
hyenas
hadn't
taken
yet

(03:32):
was
going
to
be
kind
of
dry
and
tough.
And
so
we
were
really
good
at
chewing.
We
had
the
extra
thick
teeth.
But
now,
interestingly,
our
teeth
start
to
get
smaller
again.
And
so
I
we
don't
have
the
same
teeth
as
the
Australopithecines
have,
but
they're
still
thicker
than
and
larger
than
a
chimp
would
have
to
flatter
for
grinding.

(03:54):
So
our
diets
have
changed,
but
it's
still
really
tough.
And
and
we
we
have
a
lot
of
exercise
in
our
mouth.
Our
our
jaws
are
thick
and
strong
and
our
facial
muscles
are
are,
you
know,
designed
for
being
able
to
bite
through
a
bow
in
order
to
rip
meat
off
using
our
teeth
from
something
that's
already
partially
dried.

(04:14):
But
with
fire,
we're
able
to
soften
everything
and
start
cooking.
And
so
it
probably
was
first
roasting,
maybe
some
boiling
later,
putting,
you
know,
a
tuber
under
a
fire
to
to
let
it
soften.
And
this
is
also
detoxifying.
A
lot
of
plants
a
lot
of
plants
have
anti
nutritional
factors
that
will
actually

(04:35):
you
could
if
you
were
eating
nothing
but
soybeans
raw,
you
would
starve
to
death.
They
would
actually
block
their
own
absorption
of
food.
They
have
things
that
destroy
proteins
and
prevent
themselves
from
getting
eaten.
So
raw
foods
were
certainly
our
history,
but
it's
not
what
we
ended
up
evolving
for.
We
evolved
to
eat,
partially
digested
foods,
the
stuff
that

(04:55):
have
pounded
with
our
with
our
our
tools
and
had
it
been
softened
and
cooked.
So
our
brains
are
getting
larger
and
as
at
the
same
time
as
our
stomach
is
getting
smaller
and
so
we're
able
to
digest
the
food
as
efficiently. 865 00:05:13,401 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Why
is
our
stomach
getting
smaller? 872 00:05:15,171 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Our
stomach

(05:15):
is
getting
smaller
because
we're
able
to
give
it
pre
processed
food.
It
doesn't
have
to
do
as
much
work.
And
so
we
don't
end
up
needing
any
more
calories
just
to
sit
and
exist
than
we
did
before.
Even
though
our
brain
is
now
taking
almost
a
fifth
of
our
total
calories,
we
have
turned
our
brain
into
this
freakish
organ

(05:35):
that
is
absorbing
all
of
our
energy.
And
what
we've
done
is
we've
reduced
our
stomach
size.
And
so
the
overall
cost
of
existence
has
switched
from
being
associated
with
digestion
to
being
associated
with,
you
know,
supplying
the
brain
with
glucose
and
oxygen 981 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:05:54,111 . So 982 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01
that's
our
main
metabolic
cost.

(05:58):
So
our
brains
have
been
growing,
our
our
tools
have
been
improving
and
you're
seeing
a
continuous
improvement
in
what
would
be
the
language
areas.
So
the
left
hand
side
of
the
brain,
the
lowering
of
the
larynx,
so
that
we're
able
to
form
words
more
clearly.
But
our
tools
of
them
remain
roughly
the
same
for

(06:18):
the
last
2
million
years.
They're
they're
basically
hand
axes,
their
hand
axes
and
choppers
and
varieties
of
those
hand
axes. 1066 00:06:25,641 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Meaning
meaning
just
carved
pieces
of
stone. 1074 00:06:29,161 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
A
large
stone
about
the
size
of
a
cell
phone
that's
sharp
all
the
way
around.
And
that,
I
speculate,
was
used
for
throwing
mostly
against
members

(06:38):
of
our
own
species.
They
were
our
anti-personnel
weapons. 1111 00:06:41,601 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
It's
not
it's
not
something
on
a
stick
like
an
axe,
not. 1124 00:06:43,881 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Something
on
a
stick.
And
then
starting
around
300,000
years
ago,
200,000
years
ago,
depending
where
and
when
I
we
start
to
develop
spears.
And
so
there's
another
transition.
And
this
is
the
transition
to
the
middle
stone
age.
This
is
when

(06:58):
Neanderthals
are
developing,
when
Denisovans
are
developing,
and
it's
when
we're
starting
to
see
the
the
first
evidence
of
spears
in
in
Africa. 1190 00:07:07,221 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
we
just
jumped
a
bunch
of
time. 1199 00:07:09,891 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Yeah.
So
we
went
from
2
million
years
ago,
we
suddenly
get
brains
maybe
a
million
years
ago,
we're
getting
fire.
And
then
around
300,000

(07:19):
years
ago,
we're
starting
to
get
spears.
And
this
this
is
another
big
change.
So
now
we
have
the
ability
to
have,
you
know,
keep
someone
in
far
away
from
us
with
our
spear.
And
this
is
probably
also
related
to
changes
in
in
stature.
So
male
Australia,
the
scenes
are
twice
the
size
of
females.
Homo

(07:39):
erectus
is,
you
know,
15,
20%
larger
than
the
female.
So
we're
getting
closer
to
the
modern
differences.
And
assuming
that
we
didn't
stop
competing
for
females,
why
would
the
males
have
become
more
equal
in
size
to
the
females?
We
didn't,
I
don't
think,
switched
to
a
monogamous
relationship
where
there's
no
male
male
competition.

(08:00):
I
think
what
happened
is
we
switched
the
competition
to
something
done
with
spears.
And
so
like
what
we'd
seen
in
the
transition
to
hand
axes,
we're
using
our
tools
as
a
way
of
fighting
each
other
and
display.
So
you
wave
the
spear
in
the
air
and
someone
backs
up.
But
again,
you
can
have
war.
Bunch
of
guys
with
spears
are
so
much
more
effective
than
a
bunch
of
people
with
just
hand
axes.

(08:20):
So
this
is
a
technology
that
spreads,
spreads
pretty
rapidly
and
you
see
it
reinvented
in
several
different
places.
So
it's
happening
in
Europe
with
the
Neanderthals,
it's
happening
in
Asia. 1445 00:08:30,171 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
it's
being
passed
along
and
also
being
invented
sponges,
right?
As
as
the
same
time. 1462 00:08:35,661 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
As
our
brains
get
bigger,
we
figure
out
that
a
sharp
stone
on
a
stick
is
a
huge
reach
advantage. 1483 00:08:40,521 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So

(08:40):
can
I
ask
you,
you
just
you
discussed
why,
you
know,
and
how
our
jaws
became
what
they
are
in
our
facial
structure.
Why
did
we
start
devoting
so
much
of
our
so
a
large
quantity
of
our
calories
to
our
brains?
Why
did
the
brains
develop
the
way
that
they
did?
Was
it?
Well. 1540 00:08:57,651 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
A
large
brain
was
the
new
adaptation.
It's
like
a

(09:00):
birds
wing.
So
we
have
a
new
a
large
brain
because
it
allows
us
to
get
more
resources,
but
we
need
those
resources
to
feed
the
large
brain. 1579 00:09:08,901 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
thinking
was
more
important
now
in
getting
food. 1589 00:09:13,641 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Absolutely
was
the
only
way
we
could
make
the
tools
that
we
were
making.
We
had
to
pass
these
ideas
along
to
each
other.
We
had
to
have
concepts.

(09:21):
We
had
to
have
some
way
of
of
explaining
things. 1629 00:09:24,501 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
A
better
brain
actually
was
led
to
greater
survival,
right? 1640 00:09:30,651 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
And
now
most
predators
tend
to
be
smarter
than
most
prey
animals,
just
sort
of
as
a
general
rule,
you
know,
a
killer
whale
is
going
to
be
smarter

(09:41):
than
a
blue
whale.
And,
you
know,
a
coyote
is
going
to
be
smarter
than
a
deer.
But
we
push
that
to
a
much
higher
level
where
we
were
becoming
social
predators
that
required
social
interactions.
And
our
hunting
became
our
main
way
of
getting
calories.
A

(10:03):
hunter
gatherer
on
her
own
could
support
her
offspring,
maybe
barely.
Right.
So
you
need
about
1500
calories
a
day.
That's
about
what
you
can
gather
in
a
day.
If
you're
working
hard,
particularly
with
a
toddler
in
tow,
it
might
be
only
about
a
thousand.
So
you
would
slowly
starve
to
death
if
you
were
trying
to
gather
your
own
food.
So
you
need
someone

(10:23):
who
can
bring
meat.
Now
that
might
be
the
male
and
the
female
working
together
to
get
get
meat.
It
could
be
just
the
male
on
their
own.
Up
until
recently,
we
tended
to
think
of
it
as
just
the
male
on
their
own.
But
it
turns
out
that
females
working,
as,
you
know,
part
of
the
group
pushing
animals
towards
the
hunters
would
have
been
a
typical
way
that

(10:43):
a
whole
tribe
together
would
have
been
gathering
resources.
So
again,
it's
it's
social
interaction
combined
with
hunting
ability,
combined
with
language,
combined
with
tools.
So
all
the
advantages
we've
already
seen
with
brains
are
now
coming
together
with
fire
AMD
and
our
stones
to
give
us
new
advantage
is
forgetting

(11:03):
calories,
which
allows
us
to
get
bigger
brains.
So
this
is
a
continuous
push
towards
larger
and
larger
brains.
It's,
you
know,
something
that
was
going
on
with
very
heavy
selection.
Whoever
was
smartest
had
more
babies.
And
so
that
was,
you
know,
the
definition
of
Darwinian
fitness.
And
then
somewhere,
somewhere
around
150,

(11:24):
maybe
200,000
years
ago,
well
into
the
middle
Paleolithic,
after
we'd
had
spears
already,
things
started
to
change
again.
And
we
don't
know
exactly
what
was
happening.
For
a
while
there
was
this
sort
of
wonderful
theory
that
there
was
a
point
mutation
in
the
language
gene
and
that
this
had
given
us
the
ability
to
have
abstract
thought.
But
it
now
it's

(11:44):
looking
like
there
was
probably
several
mutations
over
a
longer
period
of
time,
which
probably
is
more
real
if
you
if
you
think
about
how
things
happen,
it's
usually
not
a
bolt
from
the
blue
that
makes
everything
happen
all
at
once. 2063 00:11:56,631 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
What
caused
these
several
mutations
over
time? 2071 00:11:59,841 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Well,
what
causes
mutations
is,
is,
is
random
chance
Cosmic

(12:04):
rays
hit
your
DNA
and
something
changes.
Most
of
the
time
it's
bad.
But
these
were
what
are
known
as
missense
mutations.
So
they
didn't
change
it
to
something
that
didn't
work.
It
changed
it
to
a
different
kind
of
amino
acid.
So
from
one
amino
acid
to
another,
and
now
you've
got
to
got
to
know
an
enzyme
that's
doing
something
else
entirely.
So
the
FOXP2
region
of
the
gene,
a
region
of
the

(12:24):
genome,
is
a
collection
of
regulatory
genes.
It's
not
just
a
sort
of
single
speech
gene
that
gives
you
imagination,
but
it's
rather
a
a
region
that
controls
brain
development
in
general.
And
so
any
mutations
in
the
in
these
in
these
brain
development

(12:45):
regions
of
the
genome
tend
to
be
really
bad.
And
that's
how
we
found
the
FOXP2
gene.
There
was
some
mutations
in
it
and
people
couldn't
speak
correctly,
but
their
nonspeech
intelligence
hadn't
gone
down.
It
was
just
regarding
speech.
So
we
realized
that
there
is
an
actual
separation
between
speech
and
intelligence
in
terms
of
what
you
can
measure.

(13:05):
And
so
that
was
why
people
started
looking
into
this
region
and
found
out
that
there
were
unique
adaptations
that
made
us
different
from
the
chimpanzees
in
the
FOXP2
region
and
that
they
were
highly
selected
for
if
they
changed
in
any
way.
You
did
not
pass
on
those
genes.
And
some
of
the
original
studies,
the
problem
was
they
only
looked
at
Europeans

(13:25):
and
it
turns
out
that
Europeans
had
gone
through
a
population
bottleneck.
So
it
looked
like
that
these
genes
had
been
selected
for
much
more
recently
rather
than
reality,
which
they
were.
They
were
older
genes.
Now
it
does
appear
that
there
is
another
portion
of
FOXP2,
not
the
ones
that
originally
found
that
it
seems
to
have
some
overall
regulatory
function,

(13:45):
which
is
also
seeming
to
be
relatively
recent.
But
the
authors
were
not
going
to
speculate
about
exactly
where
or
when
it
had
happened,
like
the
people
had
with
the
earlier
gene.
They
decided
not
to
not
to
go
that
far,
but
it
seems
as
though
there
is
a
continuous
series
of
of
mutations
in
the
language
region
of
our
genome
and
that
some

(14:05):
of
these
were
happening
probably
during
the
Middle
Paleolithic.
Some
of
the
genes
you
find
in
Neanderthals,
which
were
outside
of
Africa
as
well
as
the
African
populations.
So
it
means
it
had
to
have
been
before
the
split.
But
then
when
we
actually
left
Africa,
we
when
we
interbred
with
Neanderthals,

(14:25):
we
did
not
take
their
language
genes.
All
of
the
language
genes
that
modern
humans
have
stayed
from,
the
genes
that
we
developed
in
Africa,
we
did
not
cross
out
any
of
those
genes.
So
we
have
several
skin
hair
immune
system
genes
that
come
from
Neanderthals
and,
you
know,
populations
that

(14:45):
are
not
from
sub-Sahara.
So
the
people
left
Africa,
they
crossbred
with
Neanderthals,
got
a
whole
set
of
new
genes,
but
not
the
language
gene.
So
whatever
it
is
that
we
have
Neanderthals
didn't
have
is
highly
conserved.
Region
did
not
crossbreed
with
Neanderthals.
Anytime
it
did,
those
people
got
selected
out.
We
maintained

(15:06):
our
language
gene
intact
with
with
no
modifications.
So
that's
an
important
indication
that
it's
vital
to
who
we
are.
And
so
what
do
you
see
happening
culturally
that
coincides
with
this
change
in
the
FOXP2
region?
You
start
to
see
things
that
indicate
a
higher
level
of
conception,

(15:26):
abstract
thought.
So
this
is
when
we
get
the
first
art.
So
art
starts
about
80,000
years
ago,
and
it's
very
simple.
It
looks
like
a
hash
tag
made
of
some
scratches
on
a
piece
of
red
stone.
But
we
think
that
we
were
probably
painting
each
other
at
this
time.
And
the
technology
that
you
start
to
see. 2717 00:15:45,674 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Painting
each
other
really
mean. 2723 00:15:46,484 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Painting,

(15:46):
body
painting.
Yeah.
So
so
we
find
these
palettes
with
red
ochre,
which
is
a
great
paint,
but
we
don't
find
it
painted
on
the
walls
yet.
So
we
were
purposely
collecting
paint
and
then
putting
it
into
a
little
shell
to
hold
the
paint.
And
we
were
scratching
patterns
in
the
stone
you
got
the
paint
from,
but

(16:07):
there's
no
paint
on
the
walls
yet.
So
we
assume
that
we
are
painting
each
other
or
maybe
stone
artifacts
or
sorry,
sorry,
you
know,
or
maybe
wooden
things,
but
something,
something
that
was
not
the
cave
walls
yet.
So
we
don't
have
evidence
of
that.
B
the
art
is
there.
And
with
the
art
you
see
advanced
technologies
like
fishhooks
and
needles
and
both. 2849 00:16:26,294 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Of
these
all
of
this
happens

(16:27):
at
the
same. 2859 00:16:27,744 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Time.
All
of
this
happens
at
the
same
time.
So
this
is,
again,
sort
of
the
coevolution
of
our
technology
and
our
imagination
and
our
diet. 2886 00:16:35,414 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
with
this
this
this
development
in
in
imagination
and
essentially
theoretical
thought
that's
transformed
into
the
things
that
exist,

(16:47):
this
didn't
happen.
This
isn't
one
thing. 2914 00:16:50,174 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
It
wasn't
one
thing.
It
was
it
was
a
progression.
But
once
it
had
all
come
together,
then
it
stayed
the
same.
Then
it
was
heavily
selected
for
whatever
series
of
genes
we
got
were
really
important.
So
for
example,
there
seems
to
be
a
protein
that
is
not
expressed
in
humans,
that
is

(17:07):
expressed
in
chimpanzees
that
was
selected
for
at
this
particular
time.
That
seems
to
be
really
important.
It's
a
regulatory
gene.
We
don't
know
exactly
what
it
does
and
it's
next
to
FOXP2.
And
so
it
seems
to
be
involved
with
all
of
FOXP2.
So
it's
the
way
the
genes
get
expressed
and. 3022 00:17:23,954 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
We
know
it's
involved,
but
we
just
don't. 3031 00:17:26,324 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Know.
Not
yet.
There's
well,

(17:27):
there's
too
many
things
because
regulatory
genes
can
have
other
regulatory
genes
that
regulate
them
and,
and
then
they
regulate
other
things,
which
might
be
genes
that
regulate
everyone. 3066 00:17:37,274 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Answers
to
some
one. 3071 00:17:38,264 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Yeah,
exactly.
So
it's
it's
a
whole
bunch
of,
you
know,
feedback
loops.
And
there
was
a
bunch
of
mutations
and
then
they
stayed
fixed
essentially.

(17:47):
And
there
is
some
variation,
but
they
tend
to
be
in
regions
that
are
not
the
key
regulatory
sites.
So
anyway,
we're
developing
things
like
fishhooks.
And
if
you
think
about
if
you
think
about
what
official
can
do
and
what
it
involves,
this
is
where
you
really
get
the
grasp
of,
of
of
the
development
imagination.

(18:08):
You
have
to
imagine
a
fish
in
the
water
that
you
can't
see.
You
have
to
imagine
what
that
fish
is
going
to
eat,
what
it
wants,
what
it
wants,
exactly
where
it
lives,
what
it
wants.
Because
the
fish
aren't
everywhere.
They're
in
a
particular
spot.
They're
living
next
to
that
rock
over
there
and
you
have
to
find
them
without
seeing
them
and
then
somehow
get
it
to
bite
at
your
fishhook.
So
you
have
to
find
the
food
it

(18:28):
wants
to
eat.
You
then
have
to
make
a
some
sort
of
line
to
connect
that
fishhook
to
some
sort
of
pole
or
way
to
get
that
fishhook
out
there.
All
of
these
things.
It's
a
multistep
process.
Before
you
have
a
fish,
right
to
to
if
you
want
to
get
into
a
carcass,
all
you
need
is
a
sharp
rock.
You
can
see
the
carcass
right
in
front
of
you.
You
know,
you
need
to
cut
it.

(18:48):
You've
got
a
rock
in
your
hand.
You
just
break
that
rock,
you
cut
the
carcass.
Everything
is
very
direct.
But
now
things
are
much
more
abstract.
They're
they're
stepping
back
up
to
another
level.
Same
thing. 3352 00:18:59,444 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Within
200,000
years. 3356 00:19:02,354 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Or
No,
that
took
a
million
and
a
half. 3366 00:19:03,914 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Years
to
get
from. 3371 00:19:04,994 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
From
where?
Wher
we
were
to
where
we
are
now.
Yeah.

(19:08):
So
we're
around
between
500,000
and
200,000
years.
This
is
all
happening.
And
by
200,000
years,
it's.
It's
happened.
Done.
It's
done.
Yeah.
And
so
it
took
about
300,000
years
for
it
all
to
settle,
but
it
took
a
million
and
a
half
years
to
get
there.
But
we
suddenly
see
these
new
technologies.
It
didn't
happen
that
we
got
a
bad

(19:28):
fish
hook
and
then
a
better
fish. 3452 00:19:30,734 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Because. 3454 00:19:31,184 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
None
of
it
works
until
you
can
imagine
the
fish
and
none
of
it
works
until
you're
making
thread
and
you
have
to
thread
is
is
useful,
right?
Ropes
are
always
useful,
but
a
really
small
rope
isn't
useful
unless
you're
thinking
of
tying
something
up.
You
have
to
think
of
another
thing
involved.
Not
is
direct
with
a
thread

(19:49):
and
so
it's
the
same
with
the
needles.
You
know,
you
have
to
prepare
a
hide
in
some
way.
You
have
to
make
a
thread
to
sew
the
hide.
You
have
to
imagine
I'd
really
like
to
not
freeze
when
it
gets
cold.
And
so
I
have
to
make
this
ahead
of
time
and
it
has
to
go
through
several
steps.
You
can't
just
take
the
hide
off
of
something
and
wear
it
directly.
You
have
to
soften
it

(20:09):
mostly
through
chewing,
but
also
through
possibly
boiling
it
in
something.
So
these
new
technologies
are
all
coming
together.
The
control
of
fire,
the
control
of
AI,
making
fine,
fine
tools
that
work
with
other
tools.
And
these
are
all
happening
more
or
less
at
the
same
time.
And
this
sets
the
stage
for
us
to
leave
Africa
with
these

(20:29):
new
technologies,
we're
able
to
leave
now.
Our
ancestor
is
a
million
and
a
half
years
ago,
had
already
left
Africa,
so
the
first
set
of
technologies,
the
hand
axe,
probably
enabled
us
to
travel.
Certainly
the
having
stone
tools,
it
all
enabled
us
to
follow
the
follow
the
herds
out
of
Africa,

(20:49):
to
follow
the
the
the
grassland
animals.
And
so
we
were
a
grassland
predator
following
grassland
animals.
And
so
the
elephants
walked
out
of
Africa
and
we
followed
them.
That
was
a
million
and
a
half
years
ago.
We
probably
tried
a
couple
of
times
after
that,
but
there
were
already
people
there
that.
So
it
was
much
more
difficult
to
leave
Africa.
We
may

(21:10):
have
left
in
two
separate
waves.
The
first
wave
was
about
100,000
years
ago.
Doesn't
seem
to
have
survived.
We
don't
have
any
genes
from
that.
What
we
did
find
with
we
find
human
mitochondria
in
Neanderthals
from
about
100,000
years
ago.
We
don't
find
it
from
before
that,
but

(21:30):
we
find
it
after
that
and
we
find
art
in
Neanderthals
starting
around
then.
So
I
suspect
that
there
was
a
wave
out
of
Africa
around
100,000
years
ago,
didn't
survive
crossbred
with
Neanderthals.
They
got
our
mitochondria
and
our
speech
genes
and
it
enabled
them
to
start
making
some

(21:50):
primitive
art,
you
know,
handprints
on
the
wall,
nothing
like,
you
know,
a
picture
of
a
woolly
mammoth
or
something
like
that.
But
lines
on
walls,
handprints
that
sort
of
thing.
And
then
60,000
years
ago,
another
wave
of
humans
leaves
Africa
and
we're
able
to
survive.
And
we
wipe
out
the
Neanderthals
within
about
20,000
years.
We
wiped
them
out
fairly

(22:10):
quickly.
So
we
are
not
necessarily
nice.
Well,
we
are
very
much
social
animals.
We
are
social
hunters.
We
can't
get
along
without
each
other.
Our
babies
will
starve
without
help.
Our
societies
will
collapse
if
we
don't
work
together.
We're
also
genocidal
murderers.
We,
while
we
wander
into
a
new
area
and
we
eat

(22:30):
everything
we
can
if
we
can
catch
it.
And
so
this
is
sort
of
the
the
the
pattern
of
our
history
after
this,
every
time
we
enter
a
new
area,
whoever
has
the
best
technology
wins.
Whoever
is
the
worst
technology
disappears,
just
dies.
And
it's
usually
their
Y-chromosome
that
disappears.
It's
usually
the
male
chromosome.
So
it
seems
as
though
we're
killing
all
the
males
and
keeping
the
females.

(22:51):
So
the
same
thing
that
they
that
Columbus
did
when
he
got
to
the
the
Taino
in
Hispaniola,
all
of
the
Y
chromosomes
were
gone
within
a
couple
of
generations.
The
Taino
had
done
to
the
same
islands
in
Hispaniola
400
years
previously.
When
they'd
gotten
there,
there
been
people
there
already
and
all
of
the
Y

(23:11):
chromosomes
disappeared.
So
this
is
absolutely
something
that
is
part
of
our
history. 4129 00:23:16,514 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
It's
something
we
do. 4134 00:23:17,864 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
It
is
something
we
do,
but
we
also
interbreed
with
the
people
there.
And
so
the
genes
are
not
lost
entirely.
So
even
though
we
wiped
out
the
Neanderthals,
we
have
Neanderthal
genes.
It's
only
about
2%
of
our
total
genome.
But
we
we
share
that.

(23:32):
So
in
terms
of
sort
of
diet
and
exercise,
what
would
have
been
happening
at
this
time,
again,
transition
to
meat.
But
now
we
have
much
more
a
wider
variety
of
of
our
foods.
So
we're
able
to
eat
marine
sources
of
food,
so
we're
able
to
go
fishing.
We
have
harpoons,
right?
That's
another
thing
that
involves
knowing
where

(23:52):
something
is.
You
have
to
have
a
harpoon
point
with
barbs
tied
on
to
a
stick
with
a
line
that
then
stops
the
thing
not
swimming
away.
You
have
to
be
able
to
understand
how
to
aim
a
harpoon.
You
know,
the
diffraction
means
that
the
target
you're
looking
at
is
is
ten
degrees
over
from
where
you
actually
have
to
aim.
So
our

(24:12):
ability
to
get
new
sources
and
a
greater
variety
of
sources
of
food
has
greatly
expanded.
We're
probably
making
snares,
right?
So
a
string
can
get
you
a
rabbit,
you
chase
the
rabbit
into
the
little
noose
and
suddenly
you
have
a
smaller
animal
fairly
easily.
So
this
is
a
wide
variety
of
foods
is
probably
how
we
outcompeted
the
Neanderthals.
It
wasn't
just
all,
you

(24:32):
know,
going
up
and
killing
them
directly.
SLAUGHTER
but
it
was
just
eating
all
the
foods
that
they
would
normally
eat.
And
so
you
see
us
pushing
out
the
Neanderthals,
and
with
this
comes
a
whole
new
level
of
art.
And
again,
probably
due
to
various
pro-European
biases,
at
first
we
thought
this
was
only
happening
in
Europe,
but
we're
now
finding
out
this
is

(24:52):
happening
everywhere.
We
had
to
Indonesia
and
we
start
painting
on
the
walls
in
Indonesia
40,000
years
ago.
We're
painting
the
animals
we
hunt.
We're
seeing
the
same
thing
in
Malaysia.
We
start
seeing
this
in
Europe.
We're
seeing
woolly
mammoths
on
the
walls.
We're
seeing
the
the
rhinos,
white
rhinos. 4487 00:25:11,054 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Happening
all
around
the
world
at
the
same

(25:12):
time,
because. 4498 00:25:13,604 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
We've
left
Africa
with
these
superior
language
genes
that
allows
this
imagination
and
with
imagination,
with
these
new
technologies,
that
imagination
can
give
us
with
the
new
social
interactions
that
we
have,
we
also
have
the
desire
to
paint
what
we
see. 4541 00:25:28,664 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
these
these
progressions
are
innate
in
us
and
developing

(25:33):
all
at
the
same
time.
Everywhere. 4558 00:25:35,204 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Everywhere.
Yeah.
It's
not
confined
to
any
single
population,
certainly
in
the
earlier,
more
racist
version
of
human
evolution,
there
were
a
lot
of
suppositions
that
there
was
something
special
about
European
populations
or
something
not
special
about
sub-Saharan
African
populations,
but
that
is
not
the
case.
These
are
all
genes

(25:53):
that
evolved
in
Africa.
We
brought
out
of
Africa
was. 4620 00:25:56,174 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Being
human
happening. 4624 00:25:57,674 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Being
human
happening.
And
it
came
from
an
African
population.
Interestingly,
Europeans
probably
had
dark
skin
till
about
4000,
5000
years
ago.
And
it
was
a
it
was
a
middle
Eastern
farming
population
that
displaced
the
hunter
gatherers.

(26:13):
The
the
supposed
ubermensch
as
of
early
Europe
would
have
had
dark
skin
and
been
the
tall
hunters
that
the
Nazis
really
loved.
They
were
they
were
not
what
they
would
Nazis
would
have
wanted
them
to
look
like
that.
Those
were
those
were
I
Middle
Eastern
farmers
who
came
in
and
displaced
them,
possibly
with
a
Neanderthal
gene,
making
them
unusually
pale

(26:34):
because
Europeans
are
indeed
paler
than
other
other
groups.
But
it
is
it
is
literally
only
skin
deep.
It's
just
it's
just
melanin.
And
they're
there.
It
didn't
even
come
from
Europe.
So
it's
it's
interesting
to
think
of
how
our
are
sort
of
spiritual
life
is
directly

(26:55):
related
to
our
development
of
technology
and
is
directly
related
to
the
things
we
eat
and
how
we
live,
the
ability
to
keep
ourselves
warm
in
a
cave
means
that
we're
able
to
survive
the
Ice
Age
winters,
which
means
that
we
have
a
community
sitting
in
the
cave
and
painting
on
the
walls,
which
means
we
start
to
think
about,
you
know,
the
flickering
lights
and
the
things
we
see
in
our
brains,

(27:15):
and
we
start
putting
our
imagination
onto
the
walls
of
the
cave.
And
this
is
the
beginning
of
a,
well,
some
sort
of
spiritual
development
and
is
accompanying
a
whole
new
set
of
things
that
we
can
eat.
Our
our
teeth
have
continued
to
get
smaller
as
our
diet
has
gotten
higher

(27:36):
quality,
our
brains
continue
to
get
larger.
And
this
is
the
largest
our
brain
gets.
So
in
the
middle
of
the
ice
age,
our
brain
is
up
to
1350
cc's,
same
size
as
in
Neanderthal,
but
a
very
different
shape.
We
have
a
much
rounder
brain.
The
left
side
of
our
brain.
Our
language
brain
is
much
larger
and
it's

(27:56):
a
thousand
keys
larger
than
a
chimpanzee.
So
so
a
chimpanzee's
brain
is
350
cubic
centimeters
and
a
ice
age
hunter
gatherer
is
brain
with
1350
cubic
centimeter.
So
much,
much
larger
modern
human
brains
that
we're
closer
to
1150.
We've
shrunk
again
since
then.
So
this
was
the
apex
of
our

(28:17):
just
in
terms
of
brain
size.
Now
we
don't
again,
have
any
of
the
actual
brains
left
over,
so
we
don't
know
what
they
would
have
looked
like.
We
know
folding
in
a
brain
is
extremely
important
for
the
way
regions
communicate
with
each
other
and
for
the
ability
to
process
information.
So
a
chimp's
brain

(28:37):
is
not
just
smaller,
it's
also
much
less
folded.
So
there's
something
about
the
development
of
the
forebrain
in
humans,
the
development
of
language
regions
that
includes
very,
very
deep
folds
in
the
brain.
And
so
this
could
have
continued
to
happen,
but
probably
was
was
fully
developed
by
50,000
years
ago,
let's
say.

(28:57):
So
this
is
this
is
showing
that
we
can't
just
think
about
how
we
live
in
terms
of
what
foods
we
should
eat
outside
of
our
entire
our
mental
life.
Everything
we're
doing
is
based
on
our
ability
to
imagine
things.
So
we
were
imagining
our

(29:18):
what
we
were
hunting.
We
were
then
painting
it
on
the
walls.
We
were
able
to
display
our
imagination.
We
were
able
to
get
into
the
minds
of
our
actual
the
things
we
were
actually
eating.
And
it's
something
to
think
about
in
the
modern
world,
how
we've
separated
ourselves
from
our
diet
so
that
we
no
longer
imagine
the
animals
that
we're
interacting
with
in
any
way

(29:38):
we
are
now
essentially
separated
from
them.
We've
also
confined
our
diet
in
many
ways.
We
eat
only
a
few
kinds
of
meat.
We
eat
very
few.
I
plants
it
all
right.
We
only
have
a
few
staple
plants
that
we
eat.
We
have
a
few
sort
of
condiment
plants
on
the
side
like
you
know,
here

(29:58):
your
side
dishes.
But
we've
we've
now
confined
our
diet
to
only
a
few
different
kinds
of
foods.
And
this
is
going
to
have
profound
effects
on
our
on
our
health
by
having
particularly
high
fibre
diets
with
a
variety
of
different
sources,
you're
building
structural
diversity
in
your
stomach
as
you
eat.

(30:19):
And
this
is
going
to
provide
different
kinds
of
structural
diversity
for
bacteria.
So
when
you're
building
your
your
your
microbiome,
the
the
flora
that
live
with
you,
I,
you
are
actually
limiting
it
by
the
numbers
of
kinds
of
foods
you
eat,
particularly
the
high

(30:39):
the
high
calorie
I
high
carbohydrate
easily
easily
digestible
staple
foods
the
starches.
And
I
think
that's
really
been
our
downfall
since
the
development
of
farming.
That's
probably
why
our
brains
got
smaller
was
the
development
of
farming,
you
know,
periodic
starvation
due
to
drought,
etc.
Only
the
small
farmers
survived.
Farming
communities

(30:59):
tend
in
general
to
be
smaller
than
ones
with
more
meat
in
their
diet.
And
all
of
these
things
are
then
accompanied
by
a
whole
range
of
problems
for
health.
So
we
went
from
being
people
who
would
run
for
a
mile
and
then
take
a
couple
of
days
off
and
then
walk
for
a
couple
of
miles
and
then
dig
something
and
then
chop
something
to
someone

(31:20):
who
had
to
work
really
hard
all
day.
And
so
farming
is
bad
for
your
back
and
it's
bad
for
your
joints,
but
at
least
you're
getting
decent
exercise,
you're
strong,
you're
still
moving.
So
these
are
these
these
are
the
kinds
of
transitions
that
are
that
are
that
are
happening
where
we
go
from
what
we
were
evolved
for,
which
was
definitely
hunter
gatherer
to
something
that
we
were
not

(31:40):
evolved
for,
which
is
living
in
one
place
in
large
groups,
passing
diseases
to
each
other
and
digging
all
day.
You
know,
we
we
went
from
being
runners
and
walkers
to
being
diggers,
essentially,
and
that
was
a
major,
major
change.
And
our
species
got
smaller,
our
brains
got
smaller,
we
became
shorter.

(32:01):
We,
we,
we
generally
I,
even
though
our
populations
went
way
up,
we
became
much
more
numerous.
We
were
we
were
not
as
healthy.
And
so
when
you
want
to
think
about
health,
you
want
to
sort
of
think
about
this,
this
beginning
period,
the
hunter
gatherer
period
where
we're
developing
early
forms

(32:22):
of
a
spiritual
life,
as
also
the
time
when
we're
developing
probably
our
optimal
diet,
our
optimal
exercise
routines.
But
it
was
not
simply
eating
one
kind
of
meat
all
the
time.
It
was
eating
many
different
meats,
eating
much
more
of
the
entire
animal.
It
would
have
been
wide
sources
of
carbohydrates,

(32:42):
probably
a
lot
of
fasting,
right?
You
would
go
for
a
couple
of
days
without
food
before
you'd
find
the
food.
When
you
get
the
meat,
you
need
nothing
but
meat
for
a
whole
day
because
you
can't
preserve
the
meat
very
easily.
And
then
you
would
be
eating,
you
know,
whatever
roots
or
berries
or
whatever
it
is
you
can
gather
most
of
the
time.
So
most
days
people
are
gathering
maybe
a
thousand
calories
a
day
of

(33:03):
purely
carbohydrates,
very
high
fiber.
And
then
every
once
in
a
while,
there's
a
huge
influx
of
high
calorie
meat
that
keeps
everyone
alive.
So
it
wasn't
a
life
of
just
living
on,
you
know,
just
muscle
meat.
It
would
have
been
a
wide
variety
of
foods
with
mostly
carbohydrates
most
of
the
time.
But
then

(33:23):
just
bingeing
on
meat
periodically
and
also
periodic
fasting.
So
if
you
think
about
many
of
the
modern
sort
of
diet
approaches,
they
all
work
for
different
ways.
So
something
like
the
Mediterranean
diet
works
because
it's
really
focusing
on
the
complex
carbohydrates
and
variety.
Some
of
the

(33:43):
what
they
call
paleo
diets
might
work
because
they're
cutting
out
the
sugars
and
they're
cutting
out
those
simple
starches.
So
they
lower
the
the
glycemic
response
and
the
insulin
response.
These
diets
work
for
different
reasons,
but
they
work
because
they're
approximating
what
we
were
evolved
for.
We
were
evolved
for
eating
almost
only
vegetables
most
of
the
time
and
then
having
tremendous
amounts

(34:03):
of
meat
periodically.
We
were
also
evolved
for
large
amounts
of
varied
exercise,
not
just
one
thing,
not
digging
all
day,
but
lots
of
variety
of
exercise.
And
we
evolved
to
have
a
spiritual
life,
to
be
part
of
a
community,
to
work
together
to
to,
to
imagine
things
and
then
put
them
onto
the
wall
to
see

(34:24):
our
inner
life
expressed
in
our
community
with
each
other
and
to
see
how
our
imagination
develops. 6066 00:34:32,954 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
All
right.
Wow.
That
was
thank
you.
It
was
fascinating.
Where
are
we
going
next
time? 6083 00:34:39,734 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
I'm
not
sure.
I
think
I
think
we
will
start
talking
about
specific
aspects
of
the
diet.
So
I'd
like
to

(34:44):
talk
about
role
of
sugar.
I
would
like
to
talk
about
the
role
of
intermittent
fasting.
I
would
like
to
talk
about
things
like
I
various
kinds
of
exercise
that
are
not
just
one
kind.
I
want
to
talk
about
the
details
of,
of
of
of
health
that
we've
talked
about.
And
then
I'd
like
to

(35:04):
talk
about
the
role
of
the
imagination
in
our
lives.
So
I'd
like
to
break
down
some
of
the
themes
I've
been
working
on
and
and
focus
on
those. 6190 00:35:12,434 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Excellent.
All
right.
Well,
thank
you
very
much.
See
you
next
time.