Art and the Imagination

What is art? Today with Dr. Josh Stout we discuss cave art, and the development of art as a social and individual practice through the present moment where we see art uncoupled from time and medium.

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
Today
is
Friday,
November
3rd.
And
here
again
with
Josh.
How
are
you
doing? 16 00:00:12,953 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Josh
I
am
doing
well.
I
just
wanted
to
start
off
with
a
couple
of
little
things
from
previous
episodes.
There
was
an
episode
where
I
was
talking
about
the
relationship
between
our
giant
brains
and
how
much
energy
they
need
from
their
mothers,

(00:28):
and
I
vastly
overexaggerated
the
amount
of
fat
in
human
milk.
I
the
way
I
tend
to
think
about
facts
and
figures
is
I
remember
them
in
relationships.
And
so
I
knew
that
human
milk
fat
was
twice
that
of
cows,
which
is
important.
Right.
And
basically
was
the
thing
I
was
trying
to
talk
about
was
how
much
how
much
energy
we
give
to
our
babies.
But
I

(00:49):
overestimated
the
cows
and
then
overestimated
humans.
So
anyway,
I
just
I
just
wanted
to
correct
that
I
human
milk
fat
comes
in
around
6%
or
so.
Six
or
7%,
not
18,
as
I
said. 165 00:01:02,333 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Very
good.
Thank
you
for
correcting. 172 00:01:04,163 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
And
then
the
other
thing
was
last
last
evening
I
did
a
show
on
Serpent
and

(01:09):
is
Asian,
and
I
just
wanted
to
point
out
that
was
I
did
an
experiment
using
my
using
my
phone,
sitting
there
with
a
cat
on
my
lap.
And
I
definitely
went
far
afield
from
my
normal
areas
of
expertise.
So
if
any
of
the
chemistry
turns
out
to
be
wrong,
I
will
try
and
check
it
out
and
get
corrections
LED
later.
Time

(01:29):
and
follow
up
on
that
and
I'll
probably
be
coming
back
to
Serpent
Analyzation
at
some
point.
There's
there's
vastly
more
to
the
topic. 277 00:01:34,553 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
And
I
and
I
do
hope
that
that
as
you
have
more
ideas
that
you
you
need
to
get
off
your
chest
when
you're
not
with
me
that
you
will
continue
to
do
recordings
on
your
own
because
we'll
will
put
those
up
that. 322 00:01:47,153 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
That
that
is
the
goal.
And
just
just
for
those

(01:49):
who
don't
know
what
I'm
talking
about,
Serpent
ionization
makes
hydrogen
that
comes
directly
out
of
the
ground
and
we
can
run
our
entire
economy
on
it
perfectly
cleanly
and
produce
zero
pollution. 366 00:01:58,403 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Are
we
not
doing
that?
I
guess
because
we've. 376 00:02:00,083 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Just
found
it
and
that's
what
we
that
would
be
the
next
kind
of
thing
we
talk
about
moving
on
to
today.
All
right.
Moving
on
to
today's
discussion
discussion.
There's
been
a
couple
of
articles
recently

(02:09):
in
The
New
York
Times
on
art
and
on
sort
of
our
relationship
in
the
modern
world
to
art.
And
I
found
them
interesting.
And
so
I
wanted
to
do
a
basically
an
art
history
talk,
but
from
the
point
of
view
of
human
evolution.
So
starting
with
the
beginning
of
human
art
and
then
just
bringing
us
right
through
to
what
we're

(02:29):
talking
about
today,
I. 481 00:02:31,073 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Can't
wait
to
hear
how
you
define
the
beginning
of
human
art. 494 00:02:35,063 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Well,
that's
super
easy.
It's
sort
of
a
hashtag
it.
So
yeah,
so
what
I
was
what
I
was
reading
about
was
that
the
art
we
have
in
the
modern
world
has
become
outside

(02:50):
of
time.
It's
a
temporal
that
we
no
longer
have
a
firm
standing
in
any
particular
era,
and
that
this
has
happened
really
across
the
board.
I
can
see
it
in
my
own
music.
So
I,
I
look
at
the
music
I
listen
to
and
it's
from
the
1930s
up
until
yesterday,
and
it's
this
whole
range.
And
what
is
that
range?
That's
modernity,
right?
So

(03:10):
between
the
wars,
right
after
World
War
One,
basically
visual
arts,
all
change
and
music
starts
to
change.
And
this
is
when
the
birth
of
modernity,
we
no
longer
have
the
classical
image
of
the
guy
on
a
horse
with
a
sword,
right?
That
that,
that
that
goes
away.
We
lose
classical
music,
we

(03:30):
lose
classical
poetry.
And
then
these
were
replaced
by
new
forms.
And
these
new
forms
are
changing
all
the
time.
And
so
we
go
through
these
upheavals
over
and
over
again
as,
as,
as
visual
arts
change,
as
music
changes.
And
it
happens
more
and
more
rapidly.
And
then
in
the
last
real
literally
decade,
w
gone
outside
of
time
itself.
We
are
now
in
a
region

(03:50):
where
everything
is
a
giant
jumble
and
happening
at
the
same
time.
And
so
the
thesis
that
was
in
the
Times
was
that
this
means
that
our
art
itself
has
become
confused
and
will
not
leave
anything
for
future
generations
that
will
make
any
sense
because
it's
from
all
different
times
and
that
we
as
a
time

(04:10):
may
not
be
remembered
because
of
this,
because
we
are
now
essentially
a
historical
left. 788 00:04:16,133 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
We
have
no
way
to
define
ourselves. 796 00:04:18,293 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
We
are
not
a
time.
Okay,
So
in
some
ways
I
agree
with
this,
but
I
think
that
is
actually
a
definition.
This
is
this
is
a
moment
unlike
others.
And
so
therefore,
this
is
a
moment

(04:31):
and
this
kind
of
contradiction
is
is
it's
constant
in
the
art
world.
As
soon
as
you
destroy
something,
you've
basically
created
the
thing
that
you
just
destroyed.
Right.
And
it
is. 866 00:04:42,263 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Destruction
itself
is
a
thing. 872 00:04:43,913 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Is
a
thing
and
becomes,
you
know,
the
next
the
next
thing,
the
next
thing.
So
yeah,
so
so
the
thing
we're
in
right
now
is
this
this,
this
a
temporal
moment.

(04:52):
And
so
I
wanted
to
think
about
what
time
is
in
relation
to
art
and,
you
know,
go
back
to
the
beginning
of
art
time.
And
then
for
art
again
and
see
sort
of
how
we
got
to. 943 00:05:03,803 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Some
of
this
was,
was
this
the
thesis
of
the
article
that
you
were
reading,
that
our
art
right
now
is
outside
of
time?
Yes.
Not
definable
and
won't
be
remembered.
Yes. 976 00:05:11,333 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Yes,
exactly.
Yeah,

(05:12):
that
was
the
thesis
and
I
agreed
with
it.
I
think
it's
true.
And
then
I
think
the
opposite
of
it.
Because
it's
true.
This
is
our
time.
Thi
is
the
moment.
Right?
And
so
this
this
is
this
is
the
sort
of
the
nature
of
defining
things
within
art
is
as
soon
as
you
define
something,
you've
moved
to
another
step.
Essentially.

(05:32):
And
so
that
step
we're
in
right
now
is
a
moment.
So
we're
outside
of
time,
but
happening
within
time
are
time
is
a
temporal. 1068 00:05:41,153 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
To
actually
be
outside
of
time. 1075 00:05:43,103 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
But
yes,
right.
You
know,
so
you
can
access
things
from
any
time
at
any
moment,
anywhere.
Right.
This
is
the
nature
of
the
modern
information
world.
So

(05:52):
going
back
to
the
beginning,
we've
just
become
humans.
Our
brain
is
expanding.
Are
the
regions
of
our
brains
that
govern
both
tools
and
language
have
expanded.
So
the
left
hemisphere
is
much
larger
than
the
right.
We
become
right
handed.
We
become
skilled
with
tools,
we're
making
new
tools,
and
we
see
this
explosion

(06:13):
in
in
New
technologies,
which
I've
already
talked
about,
things
like
fishhooks
and
needles
that
require
imagination.
At
this
moment
we
find
in
South
Africa
an
80,000
year
old
cave
with,
as
I
said,
a
hash
tag.
Someone
made
a
sort
of
scratch
in
a
piece
of
ochre.
They
were
probably
using
it
to
make
body
paint
and
they
happened

(06:33):
to
make
a
pattern
out
of
it
While
they
did
it
right.
So
they
didn't
just
scratch
it,
they
did
it
in
both
directions. 1243 00:06:39,143 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
it
wasn't
just
random. 1249 00:06:40,433 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
It
wasn't
just
random.
Now,
we
clearly
had
an
aesthetic
sense
even
before
that.
As
soon
as
I'm
sorry. 1269 00:06:47,033 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
I
have
a
question,
which
is
that
you
don't
think
that
pattern
was
you
don't
think
that
that
pattern
was
actually

(06:53):
the
purpose
of
the
art,
The
it
was
a
byproduct
and
that
they
were
trying
to
get
a
pigment
for
body
paint. 1313 00:07:00,413 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Probably
because
what,
what
what
is
found
next
to
this
piece
of
ochre,
which
is
a
stone
and
that
you
can
scratch
the
stone
to
get
pigment
from
it.
What
it
found
next
to
it
is
a
abalone
shell
with,
with
pigment
in
it.
Right.
So
someone
was
collecting

(07:13):
this
pigment
and
then
putting
it
basically
in
a
palette.
There's
no
paint
on
the
walls.
So
the
idea
is
that
what
were
they
painting?
They
were
probably
painting
themselves
very
interesting.
And
it's
fun
to
do.
I
mean,
I
did
this
as
as
a
child.
I
would
go
down
to
the
beach,
I
would
take
red
stone,
scratch
the
ochre
off
of
it,
and
paint
myself
with
it.
All
the
kids
did.
Yeah.
Because

(07:34):
if
you
live
near
those
rocks,
that's
what
you
do.
But
I
didn't
tend
to
make
patterns
with
it.
And
if
I
had
made
a
pattern
while
I
was
doing
it,
that
would
have
been
art.
It's
not
high
art.
It
could
have
been,
you
know,
very
beginning
kind
of
thing,
but
it's
something
that
would
leave
a
mark,
right?
You
scratch
into
a
rock.
It's
there
for
a
really
long
time.
I
this
case,
80,000
years
just
sitting
there.
No
one
touches
it.
There
it
is.
You
pick
it
up

(07:54):
80,000
years
later.
So
this
is
what
I
wanted
to
get
at
is
sort
of
the
sense
of
deep
time
in
the
beginning
of
art.
Even
before
that,
when
we
were
making
hand
axes,
there
would
have
been
some
sort
of
art
concept
involved.
So
if
art
is
anything,
it's
a
modification
of
some
sort

(08:14):
of
substance
or
the
modification
or,
you
know,
production
of
say,
a
song
or
sounds
right,
it's
doing
something
that
wasn't
there
before
and
then
with
some
sort
of
way
of
conveying
information
to
someone
else
so
that
before
this
hashtag,
that
hashtag
would
just
say,
look,
here
I

(08:34):
am
doing
this
thing
right.
It's
a
pattern.
And
so
we
generally
think
of
this
as
associated
with
these
advanced
technologies.
fishHooks,
probably
the
development
of
language.
Before
this,
what
we
had
was
hand
axes.
And
with
four
hand
axe,
this
is
this
is
a
stone
tool
about
the
size
of
a
cell
phone
for
the
same
reason
you
hold
them
in
your
hand.
And
we

(08:54):
probably
would
have
been
able
to
do
a
hand
axe
without
too
much
advanced
language.
You
can
just
sit
next
to
someone
and
learn
how
to
make
something
like
that.
So
communication
could
have
happened
direct
sort
of
body
to
body
communication,
just
following
the
patterns
and
when
the
hand
axes
were
made,
they
had
a
certain
aesthetic
value
to
them.
They
might
have
stripes
in
them.
Sometimes
there
would
be
a
fossil

(09:14):
that
was
put
directly
in
the
centre
of
the
hand
axe
so
that
you
could
see
it.
So
it
wasn't
that
we
were
outside
of
aesthetics,
but
we
were
not
making
these
things
for
an
aesthetic
aesthetic
reason.
So
they're
not
considered
art
and
they
don't
have
the
same
kind
of
meaning
that
a
symbol
or
a
pattern
put
on
a
wall
or
put
on
a
stone
purposely
does,
right?
So
that
piece
of
ochre
was

(09:34):
not
a
tool.
It
was
not
for
anything
else,
it
was
just
scratched.
Now
it
might
have
been
used
to
make
the
pigment,
but
when
they
did
it,
they
were
making
a
pattern.
And
so
that's
sort
of
the
very,
very
beginning.
And
coupled
with
this
with
the
abalone
shell,
with
the
pigment
in
it
gives
the
idea
that
we
were
painting
ourselves,
we
were
doing
something
with
this
pigment.

(09:54):
So
it's
not
just
a
hashtag. 1924 00:09:56,303 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
We
weren't
just
scratching
away,
we
were
collecting. 1933 00:09:58,643 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Yeah.
So
the
whole
the
whole. 1940 00:10:00,833 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Sort
of
thing
was
part
of
a
multistep
process. 1950 00:10:02,843 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
And
are
pieces
of
evidence
showing
that
this
was
art.
And
so
this
was
a
real
transition
from
we
might
have
been
able
to
appreciate
pretty
things
before
this,
but
now
we're
making

(10:14):
things
that
have
a
meaning,
that
have
some
way
of
conveying
something.
Now,
it
might
just
be
I
have
red
on
my
face.
So,
you
know,
this
is
a
special
moment,
right?
I
made
red
on
my
face.
I
look
cool
now,
right?
There
could
be
all
sorts
of
reasons
you
might
want
to
paint
yourself.
It
could
be
rituals,
or
it
could
just
be,
you
know,
the
early
makeup,
right?
I

(10:34):
have
my,
my,
my,
my,
my
children
played
around
with
this.
If
they
wanted
to
put
rouge
on
their
cheeks,
they
would
actually
scratch
some
ochre
and
put
some
rouge
on
their
cheeks.
You
know,
these
these
these
these
are
things
humans
have
done
for
a
long
time.
And
they
have
to
do
with,
you
know,
our
relationship
to
each
other
and
putting
marks
on
ourselves.
But
again,
it
has
to
do
with
with

(10:55):
both
a
combination
of
beauty
and
and
communication. 2138 00:10:59,423 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
And
maybe
a
little
bit
of
controlling
our
world. 2148 00:11:02,003 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Controlling
the
world.
Yes.
So
that's
that's
that's
sort
of
the
thing
that
comes
later.
As
soon
as
you
have
a
symbology 2171 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:11:08,123 , you 2172 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01
can
you
can
record
your
world.
You
can
control
your
world. 2184 00:11:11,373 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
The
act
of
marking
yourself. 2190 00:11:12,893 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Absolutely. 2192 00:11:13,593 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Yeah.
In
a
way
that
never
was
possible

(11:15):
before. 2202 00:11:15,533 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Yeah.
So
the
first
thing
we
start
to
see
on
cave
walls
is
handprints.
So
we
take
we
take
that
mark
on
ourself
and
then
we
put
it
onto
the
cave
wall.
And
so
this
is,
this
is
our
signature,
essentially.
And
so
I
ask
my
students,
you
as
a
human,
why
would
you
put
your
handprint
somewhere?
And
I
show
them
pictures
of
of
modern
graffiti,
of
handprints
on
things.
And
they're
saying,
well,
just

(11:35):
essentially
I
was
here,
I
think,
yeah,
yeah,
I
agree
with
that.
But
sometimes
there's
weird
ones,
right?
You
might
be
part
of
a
of
a
cult
or
a
group.
So
people
would
make
the
equivalent
of
gang
symbols,
you
know,
different
weird
finger
combinations
and
put
those
on
a
wall.
And
so
that's
a
particular
signature.
There's
one
place
in
North
Africa
where
they
have
human
handprints,
and
then

(11:55):
the
handprint
of
a
very
large
lizard
put
directly
over
the
human
handprint.
You
can't
say
why,
but
that
was
a
group
that
had
a
particular
thing
going
on. 2378 00:12:04,103 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Didn't
say
why,
but
it
certainly
says
something. 2387 00:12:06,323 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Says
something.
Yes,
there's
something.
I
am
the
Lizard
King.
Yeah,
yeah.
No. 2401 00:12:10,583 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
I
had
this
lizard
in
my
hand. 2409 00:12:12,623 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Yeah,
a
very
big
lizard.
And
they're
not
all
the
same

(12:15):
lizard.
And
a
lot
of
people
are
doing
this
at
different
times.
So
they
were
the
lizard
people,
right?
So
there
is
this
this
becomes,
you
know,
one
of
the
first
aspects
of
art
is
marking
that
you
were
here
when
we
start
to
see
what
we
call
a
true
cave
art,
parietal
art,
the
art
that
is
painted
on
a
wall,
So

(12:35):
once
once
that
begins
and
we
start
to
actually
paint
animals
and
things
like
that,
we've
we've,
we've,
we've
truly
entered
the
world
of
abstraction.
And
until
relatively
recently
we
had
understood
this
is
happening
in
Europe.
It
was
probably
for
some
perhaps
slightly
ever
so
slightly
racist
reasons.

(12:55):
Any
time
you
look
back
in
our
anthropology
and
archaeology,
as
soon
as
you
get
back
into
the
fifties
and
forties,
the
stuff
you
see
is
unbelievably
racist.
Even
if
they
have
a
reasonable
theory
on
something,
they'll
just
throw
in
a
couple
of
racist
words
just
for
fun
and
you're
like,
Why
did
you
even
do
that?
Right?
So,
you
know,
for
example,
someone
found
hand
axes

(13:16):
all
the
way
to
India
and
then
none
in
China.
And
so
they
could
have
just
said
that,
but
they're
like,
well,
maybe
the
people
in
China
weren't
smart
enough.
Just
just
throw
that
out
there.
And
they're
not
even
talking
about
humans 2644 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:13:25,039 . Right 2645 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01 .
We're
talking
about,
you
know,
Homo
erectus
in
different
regions
and
and
and
they
just
just
throw
it
out
there
for
a,
you
know,
basically
racist
reasons.
So
we're
finding
all
this
art
in
Europe.
We
also

(13:36):
find
art
in
other
parts
of
the
world,
but
we
assume
it's
not
as
old
because
it's
not
in
Europe
and
was
a
somewhat
of
a
of
a
sort
of.
Yeah,
exactly.
And
so
there
was
this
this
this,
this
self-fulfilling
prophecy.
Now,
it
wasn't
entirely
for
racist
reasons.
If
you
think
about
the
European
art,
what
you
see
on
the
walls,
you
see
woolly
mammoths,
you
see
woolly
rhinos,
you
see

(13:56):
things
that
don't
exist
anymore.
So,
you
know,
they
must
have
been
real.
So
as
soon
as
we
saw
it,
we
didn't
have
to
be,
you
know,
experts
in
dating,
you
see
a
mammoth
painted
on
the
wall
say,
you
know,
it's
1850
or
something,
and
you're
like,
oh,
that's
old.
We
don't
have
those
anymore.
That's
incredible.
That's
like
an
elephant
with
fur
on
it.
And

(14:16):
so
we
knew
that
these
were
incredibly
old.
When
you
go
see
the
ones
that
were
done
in
Indonesia
and
Malaysia
that
are
actually
potentially
older,
but
we've
only
recently
realised
this.
They're
the
same
animals
that
are
there
today,
so
you
can't
just
look
at
them
and
realise
they're
old.
So
it
wasn't
entirely
racism.
It's
not
always
racism,
but
there's
always
just
a
sprinkling
of
it,
particular
in
the
earlier
stuff,

(14:36):
and
that
we
hadn't
been
really
thinking
about
it
that
way.
We
just
made
these
assumptions.
It
wasn't
in
Europe
must
not
be
old.
So
what
happened
was
they
started,
they
started
peeling
off
layers
of
the
calcium
carbonate
that
comes
from
the
caves.
They
were
able
to
separate
those
layers
and
find
the
bottom
layer.
So
microscopic
stuff
and
then
get
the

(14:56):
uranium
byproducts
out
of
that
bottom
layer.
That
would
give
you
an
accurate
date.
And
they
discovered
that
these
things
in
Sulawesi,
in
Malaysia
were
40,000
years
old
or
older. 2988 00:15:05,869 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
You're
talking
about
the
bottom
layer
of
pigment
on
the
stone. 3000 00:15:09,049 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
No,
the
the
bottom
layer
of
stone
all
over
the
pigment.
So
as
a
cave
is
forming,
the
water
is
dripping

(15:16):
down
and
evaporating.
Lee
Leaving
calcium
carbonate.
Now,
if
there
was
a
lot
of
it,
you
wouldn't
see
the
painting
anymore.
It
would
be
covered.
So
we're
talking
very
microscopic,
transparent
layers.
When
you
put
those
under
a
microscope,
you
can
see
individual
layers
of
this
stuff
like,
like,
like
paint
layers,
like,
you
know,
someone
would
paint
it
and
then
they
paint
again.
The
people
pry
these
things
apart.

(15:38):
You
then
have
minuscule,
minuscule
samples,
but
you're
looking
for
radioactive
isotopes
again.
So
less
than
one
part
per
million
of
this
tiny
thing
you
just
did
is
going
to
be
the
isotope
you're
looking
at.
You're
measuring
picograms
15
grams. 3133 00:15:52,609 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
And
then
once
you
find
that
you've,
you
know,
dated
it. 3145 00:15:55,699 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
You
absolutely
dated.
It
must
be
older

(15:58):
than
this
thing,
right?
Because
the
layers
of
stone
were
over
it.
And
it's
very
easy
to
get
younger
dates,
but
you
can't
get
older
dates
because
it
was
under
a
layer
of
stone.
So
you're
all
your
errors
are
going
to
be
towards
the
younger
end.
And
so
it's
a
really
like
firm
way
to
say
it
must
be
older
than
a
particular
date.
And
so
these
dates

(16:18):
are
40,000
years,
45,000
years,
predating
some
of
the
European
art.
Really
most
of
the
European
art.
So
it
turns
out
but
we've
only
known
this
about
28,
2010.
So
this
is
this
is
brand
new
stuff
that
we've
been
finding
out
and
it's
changing
our
concept.
So
any
any
any
racist
idea
that
art
began
in
Europe
is
totally

(16:38):
false.
While
we
were
leaving
Africa,
we
were
painting
everything.
We
also
we
also
don't
find
a
lot
of
we
were. 3303 00:16:45,469 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Killing
and
painting
everywhere
we. 3309 00:16:47,389 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Went.
Exactly.
And
so
we
don't
find
a
lot
of
this
stuff
in
Africa,
mostly
because
there
weren't
caves
of
the
right
type.
Now,
it
may
turn
out
that
some
of
these
African
paintings
that
we
thought
were
young

(16:58):
for
the
same
reasons,
rig,
we
just
assumed
may
well
be
very
old
and
there
may
be
going
back
much
further
in
time.
The
ones
that
we
found
from
80,000
years
ago
in
South
Africa
are
almost
the
only
evidence
of
very
early
cave
art
in
Africa.
I
bet
you
could
find
things
from
80,000
years
and
70
and
60
and
50
because

(17:19):
then
we
have
it
at
40
in
Indonesia,
right?
And
so
it's
out
there
somewhere.
We
just
haven't
found
it
yet.
And
so
we
have
to
just
sort
of
leave
behind
the
idea
that
Europe
is
where
art
happened,
right?
It's
just
that
there
were
a
lot
of
really
great
caves
in
the
limestone
of
of
of
of
where
sort
of
Spain
France
and
Italy
all
come
together. 3480 00:17:38,359 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
People
to
be

(17:39):
in
but
for
art
to
be
preserved. 3491 00:17:40,849 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
For
art
to
be
preserved.
Right.
If
you're
if
you're
just
on
the
if
you're
painting
on
a
wall
even
with
a
little
ledge
over
it,
that's
not
going
to
survive.
It's
got
to
be
down.
It's
got
to
be
in
deep
within
the
caves.
And
it's
and
it's
got
to
be
in
some
way
protected
from
bats.
Apparently,
bats
getting
into
a
cave
tends
to
degrade
it.
Now,
a
lot
of
the
early
theories
are,
why
did
we
only
paint
really

(17:59):
deep
in
the
caves?
I'm
beginning
to
think
that
we
painted
everywhere
and
only
the
stuff
really
deep
in
the
caves
survived.
And
so
there
was
a
lot
of
talk
about
these
ritual
spaces.
I
agree
they
were
ritual
spaces.
They
were
really
hard
to
get
deep
in
the
caves
to
paint
these
things.
And
how
did
you
get
to
paint
on
the
ceiling
and
all
these
kinds
of
things?
All
of
these
things
took
a
lot
of
work.
You
had
to
do
it
by
torchlight.
They
were
very,
very

(18:19):
deep
in
caves,
interesting
ritual
spaces
that
I
will
definitely
be
talking
about.
But
I
think
the
stuff
in
the
front
of
the
caves
was
there,
too,
and
the
bats
got
there
and
just
destroyed
it.
So
I
think
there's
sampling
bias
and
a
lot
of
what
we
do,
you
know,
it
can
only
occur
in
certain
kinds
of
caves. 3724 00:18:36,319 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
If
you've
ever
been
to
Pompeii,
you
see
that
every
wall

(18:39):
that
exists,
every
surface
was
colored,
everything. 3743 00:18:42,229 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Right?
Right.
So
this
is
this
is
this
is
an
instinct.
It
gives
us
joy
to
make
art.
Right.
And
that
is
that
is
something
that
I
have
accentuated
in
or
I've
tried
to
have
the
theme
when
I
talk
about
things,
things
that
evolution
likes
to
select
for,
give
us
joy,

(18:59):
right?
Running
around
and
throwing
stuff
gives
us
joy.
Painting
gives
us
joy.
Talking
to
people
gives
us
joy,
right?
These
are
things
that
that
is
selected
for.
Obviously,
you
know,
a
relationship
with
a
member
of
the
opposite
sex
you're
attracted
to
gives
us
joy
because
evolution
really
likes
to
select
for
that.
But
these
are
all
things
that
are
that
are,

(19:19):
that
are
naturally
occurring,
things
that
give
us
joy.
Now,
not
everything
that
gives
us
joy
is
good
for
us,
right?
Evolution
wants
us
to
eat
lots
of
sugar
and
fat
also
brings
us
joy,
right 3895 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:19:29,539 ? Literally 3896 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01 ,
our
dopamine
and
serotonin
levels
go
up
when
we
eat
sugar
and
fat.
Not
necessarily
good
for
us.
Luckily,
art
is
somewhat
good
for
us
because
we'd
be
doing
it
anyway,
right?
You
tell
the
kids
in
your
class
not
to
draw

(19:40):
on
the
desk
and
they're
all
scraping
with
their
knives
every
time
the
teacher's
back
is,
you
know,
put
their
initials
on
saying,
I'm
sorry,
I'm
thinking
high
school,
you
know,
like
carve
it
on
the
bottom
of
a
desk.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
My,
my.
Seriously,
my
students,
none
of
them
have
Nice.
Yeah,
I
meant
I
mentioned
games
that
involve
throwing
knives
to

(20:00):
my
students,
and
none
of
them
had
ever
heard
of
anything
remotely
like
that.
Yeah,
Yeah,
Some
of
it's
a
different
era,
You
know,
I
was.
I
was.
I
was
taught
by
people
who
had,
like,
grown
up
in
the
forties
and
fifties
that
throwing
knives
was
a
perfectly
normal
game.
It
was. 4057 00:20:12,889 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
A
thing
called
lawn. 4062 00:20:13,729 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Darts
and
mumbly
Peg.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
Anyway,
these
things
are
passed.
We
live
in
a
different
era
now,
but,

(20:21):
you
know,
th
stuff
is
still
fun.
Yeah.
Anyway,
back
to
art.
So
what
we
understand
as
the
history
of
art
is
basically
defined
by
European
periods,
but
that's
only
because
we've
only
recently
started
to
understand
that
it's
not
the
rest
of
the
world.
That
means
that
art
is
in
the
rest

(20:41):
of
the
world
and
that
there
are
overlaps
between
these
regions
and
periods
and
productions.
But
I'm
going
to
give
you
the
sort
of
general,
let's
say,
y
2000
version
of
how
we
would
have
understood
art,
art
to
be
produced.
You
know,
I
think
things
are
changing
because
of
these
new
dating
systems.
We
know
it
was
everywhere,
but
the

(21:01):
earliest
kinds
of
art
you
see
in
Europe
are
from
about
40,000
years
ago,
and
they
are
what
are
known
as
the
Venus
figures.
There's
some
discussions
whether
you
should
call
them
that,
but
there
are
certainly
these
AI
apparently
ritualistic
figures.
They
tend
to
be
voluptuous,
voluptuous
women,
often
without
heads
or
with
that
or
with
their
head
features,

(21:21):
somewhat
de-emphasized
large
hips,
large
breasts
looking
like
some
sort
of
fertility
symbol.
We
get
our
ideas
of
what
a
fertility
symbol
is
from
some
of
these
images. 4285 00:21:32,779 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
These
particular
images
are
from
about
40,000
years
ago. 4295 00:21:35,509 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
The
very
earliest
ones.
Yeah.
Yeah,
40,000,
30,000,
very,
very
early
periods.
And

(21:42):
basically
it
was
thought
that
this
was
predating
art
on
the
walls.
And
so
that
three
dimensional
art
was
seen
as
a
slightly
easier
way
to
approach
the
world
than
to
dimension
art,
because
it
was
less
abstract
that
you
could
carve
something
and
it
didn't
take
as
much
brainpower
as
putting
something

(22:03):
in
two
dimensions.
I
don't
know
if
this
is
true
or. 4373 00:22:05,449 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Not
having
a
hard
time
agreeing
with
that,
but. 4383 00:22:07,579 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Fair
enough
that
that
was
a
zero.
There
were
a
lot
of
weird
theories
about
these
things.
So
we
find
these
these
these
figurines
tending
to
be
earlier
than
the
paintings.
And
so
we
say
this
is
this
is
the
order
things
happened.
It
might
just
be
that
these
figurines
were
really
convenient

(22:23):
to
make.
You
could
carry
them
around. 4444 00:22:24,439 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
And
they're
made
of
stone. 4450 00:22:25,969 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
And
they're
made
of
stone
or. 4457 00:22:27,529 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
they
last. 4461 00:22:28,519 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Or,
you
know,
ivory
or
antler
or
some
of
these
other
things
that
if
you
put
them
in
a
cave,
the
last
of
these
ideas
were
then
sort
of
revamped
when
we
found
some
cave
art
that
was
contemporaneous
to
the
carvings.
And
it
turned
out
that
people

(22:43):
were
indeed. 4512 00:22:43,909 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Frequently. 4514 00:22:44,359 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Older.
Yeah,
well,
no,
not
the
ones,
not
the
ones
in
Indonesia,
but
in
Europe.
We
found
cave
paintings
that
were
the
same
age
of
these.
So
again,
this
whole
theory
went
down.
There
was
all
sorts
of
theories.
Some
people
thought
it
was
all
about
male
and
female
images
and
putting
them
together
for
for
mystical
reasons.
There
was
people
thinking
that
they
were
practice.
You
know,

(23:03):
that
certainly
that
is
something
that
you
can
do
with
your
imagination
if
you're
a
an
athlete
and
you
think
about
putting
a
ball
in
a
basket
before
you
try,
you
will
do
better.
And
so
this
is
something
that
athletes
have
learned
how
to
do.
They
can
they
can
they
can
use
their
imagination
to
practice
going
through
something.
And
they
have
measurable

(23:23):
improvement
because. 4649 00:23:24,589 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Visu
the
activity
absolutely
stimulates
the
areas
of
the
brain
that
you
need
to
actually
do
that
thing. 4668 00:23:31,099 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
So
the
ritual
aspects
of
these
things
may
well
have
been
coupled
with
actual
improvements
in
haenyeo
hunting
skills,
right?
So
one
of
the
questions
I
asked
my
students
is
what
evolutionary
purpose
does
art
serve?

(23:44):
Right?
So
in
addition
to
communication,
it
might
actually
give
you
some
sort
of
advantage
to
be
able
to
picture
an
animal
that
you're
then
going
to
hunt.
You
might
be
communicating
it
to
other
generations.
This
is
the
thing
we
hunt,
but
you
might
also
be
practicing
stabbing
at
it.
And
sometimes
you
actually
find
stab
marks
on
the
on
these
animals

(24:04):
and
you'll
see
place
where
someone
stabbed
it
with
a. 4778 00:24:06,889 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Spear
is
practice. 4782 00:24:08,539 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Other
times,
there
is
no
way
they
could
have
manoeuvred
a
spear
into
that
position,
but
they're
still
stabbed.
So
it
might
be
a
ritual
killing 4809 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:24:16,609 , right 4810 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01 ?
So
someone
might
have
might
have
taken
a
stone
and
jabbed
it
from
close
by,
not
the
way
they
would
actually
be
hunting,
but
just
to
show
that
this
thing

(24:24):
had
in
some
way
been
killed.
The
animals
are
often
shown
fat,
sometimes
they're
shown
pregnant.
These
are
things
that
are
producing
meat
for
the
group.
And
so
that,
you
know,
that
might
be
simply
the
reason
they're
important.
It's
really
interesting
to
think
about
their
connection
with
shamanic
practices.
Now,
obviously,
we're
talking
about
something

(24:45):
30,000
years
ago
and
comparing
it
to
something
where
we
talked
to
19th
century
shamans
and
we
have
an
idea
of
what
they
were
up
to
or
even
modern
shamans.
We
have
some
idea
of
what
a
shamanic
journey
might
be.
Some
of
the
best
information
we
have
is
in
Native
American
peoples,
like
the
Mayans
actually

(25:05):
have
living
shamans
that
can
help
explain
the
hieroglyphics
from
six
700
years
ago.
But
even
that
is
barely
touching
30,000
years.
Even
if
you
go
back
and
you
read
the
Egyptian
stuff
from
5000
years
ago,
that's
barely
a
clue
what
might
have
been
happening.
So
everything
that
we're
talking
about
is

(25:25):
going
to
be
speculation
when
it
comes
to
reasons.
But
we
can
see
that
connected
to
how
we
have
made
art
for
a
very
long
time
is
ideas
of
our
own
spiritual
transformations,
our
own
spiritual
journeys.
You
know,
Egyptian
art
has
lots
of
animal
human
hybrids
where
we're
taking
on
energies
of
certain
animals
and
trying
to
use
them
for
our
own

(25:46):
purposes.
And
so
this
is
likely
to
be
something
that
was
happening
in
these
caves.
I
can't
say
it
for
sure,
but
you
see
similar
activities.
There's
a
there's
a
famous
there's
a
famous
painting
on
the
cave
wall
called
the
the
Hunting
accident.
And
they
thought
that
a
a
bull
had
run

(26:06):
down
a
hunter
and
the
hunter
had
stabbed
the
bull.
And
you
can
see
what
looks
like
loops
of
intestine
coming
out
from
underneath
the
bull
where
the
bull
has
been
stabbed
and
the
hunter
is
lying
on
his
back.
And
it's
called
the
hunting
accident. 5169 00:26:17,429 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
There
is
this
work
of
art. 5176 00:26:18,889 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
There's
this
this
is
this
is
this
is
European.
I
exact
Lascaux.
So
it's,
you
know,
I
don't
know,
16,000
years
old,
something

(26:26):
like
that.
Okay.
In
France
and
I
it's
it's
the
early
versions
of
it,
you
know,
where
we're
emphasizing
you
look,
it's
a
bull.
The
guy
lying
on
his
back
is
basically
a
stick
figure.
Stick
figure.
And
he's
been
run
over.
And
it's
just
sort
of
a
thing
that
might
have
happened.
But
if
you
compare
it
to,
say,
Sean,

(26:48):
that's
a
hunter
gatherer
group
in
in
Africa,
they
do
modern
rock
carvings
and
they'll
often
show
a
bunch
of
animals
with
a
shaman
lying
on
their
back
and
they
can
say
this
is
a
shaman
lying
on
his
back.
So
this
is
direct
with
the
animals
that
he's
dreaming.
And
so
the
shaman
dreams
the
fertility
of
the
animals
and
this

(27:09):
may
be
what
we're
seeing
in
this
art.
So
this
this
guy
lying
on
his
back. 5339 00:27:13,189 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
it's
not
a
hunting
scene
at
all. 5348 00:27:14,809 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
It's
not
a
hunting
scene
at
all. 5356 00:27:16,159 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
He
may
not
be
his
dream
thing. 5364 00:27:19,069 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
The
animals
that
will
be
hunted
and
this
is
being
painted
on
the
on
on
the
wall.
And
it's
a
vision.
And
so
one
of
the
hints
that
he's
not
just
been
run
over
is
he
has
an
erection

(27:29):
and
so
on
a
stick
figure.
You
know,
it's
not
a
lot
of
details,
but
you
can
definitely
see
that
he's
not
just
lying
there
imagining
this
thing.
And
so
one
of
one
of
the
ideas
that
may
be
happening
is
either
through
chanting
or
drumming
or
some
other
I

(27:49):
rhythmic
trance
induced
state
or
even
use
of
some
sort
of
hallucinogen.
Many
of
these
images
have
relationships
to
these
these
hallucinatory
trances.
So
the
Sean
art
showing
the
shaman
lying
down,
he's
got
one
knee
up,
so
you
can't
tell.
But
he
he
may
well
also
have
an
erection.
And

(28:10):
this
is
something
that's
common
with
a
number
of
hallucinogens
in
the
trance
state
is
is
is
also
sexual.
So
for
example,
if
you
look
at
Latino
art
from
the
Caribbean,
they'll
often
be
a
shamanic
figure
who
has
taken
some
sort
of
hallucinogen.
And
you
see
him
with
his
head
back

(28:30):
as
as
the
muscles
in
his
neck
are
tightening
up
from
from
from
that
state
of
being.
He's
got
the
smile,
the
rectus
as
he's
brining
his
teeth
and
he's
got
a
big
erection.
And
so
this
is
a
classic
look
of
of
of
the
shaman
in
a
in
a
in
a
trance.
And
what
these
animals
may
white
may
well
be
is
objects
of
this
trance.
And
so

(28:51):
you
see
many
of
them
are
just
dots.
And
so
one
of
the
ideas
of,
say,
a
shaman
in
in
Siberia
might
see
is
they
might
see
dots
swirling
in
their
mind
and
that
these
dots
then
coalesce
into
animals.
And
so
often
on
the
cave
walls,
you'll
see
lots
of
dots.
Sometimes
you'll
see
animals
made
of
dots,

(29:11):
and
then
you'll
see
an
animal
made
of
dots
with
an
outline
around. 5698 00:29:14,269 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
It
is
the
idea
that
the
shaman
is
is
trying
to
call
into
being
a
good
hunt
is
that. 5718 00:29:21,649 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Was
something
like
that,
but
also
communicating
with
it.
Right.
So
this
is
this
is
this
is
the
dream
time.
This
is
the
world
of
of
the
ancestors.
This
is
the
world
of
the
animals.
So

(29:31):
this
is
you,
right? 5759 00:29:33,149 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
These
so
even
in
the
time
that
these
works
of
art
were
being
made,
they
were
depicting
something
ancient
from
their
mythology,
perhaps. 5783 00:29:41,779 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Again,
I
am
in
full
speculation
mode.
Yeah.
Okay.
So,
you
know,
I'm
trying
to
say
that
this
is
what
shamans
do,
right?
They
visit
the
world
where
the
animals
live.
They

(29:51):
bring
the
animals
to
be
hunted,
but
there
is
also
relatives
of
theirs
that
they're
talking
to.
These
are
ancestors,
These
are
relatives,
These
are
these
are
these
are
beings
that
they're
in
communication
with
and
that
this
is
done
through
the
trance.
So
they're
you
know,
sometimes
it's
members
of
the
tribe
have
a
totem
that
they're
becoming
that
animal.
Other
times
it's,
you
know,

(30:12):
the
animals
that
they
hunters
as
a
group.
But
this
is
a
common
thing
where
also
the
animals
go
into
the
shaman.
And
so
this
might
be
also
depicted
in
some
of
the
art,
just
like
in
the
Egyptian
art,
they
take
the
powers
of
the
animals
into
themselves.
Very
often
in
cave
paintings
you'll
see
a
human
with
an
animal
head.
And

(30:32):
so
sometimes
these
are
called
sorcerers.
And
then
other
people
say,
Well,
we
have
no
idea.
I
agree,
we
have
no
idea.
But
one
reason
why
you
might
want
to
put
an
animal
on
a
person's
head
is
they've
taken
that
animal
into
themselves.
And
so,
again,
in
this
sort
of
shamanic
trance
version
of
it,
again,
very
speculative.
You
could
imagine
these
things
as
taking
the
powers
of
the
animals

(30:52):
and
then
becoming
one
with
them
as
as
part
of
their
power.
So
inside
of
a
in
this
this
very
early
cave
from,
you
know,
or
Ignatian
period,
maybe
gravity
and
you
see
groups
of
lions
on
the
wall.
And
then
this
is
particularly
interesting
because
these
are
groups

(31:12):
of
what
looked
to
be
female
lionesses.
Who
are
the
hunters
of
the
lions.
Right.
So
these
are
the
hunters.
This
is
female
power
painted
on
the
walls
of
these
caves.
Now,
people
have
pointed
out
you
can't
tell
the
cave
lions
might
not
have
had
manes.
You
can't
tell
if
they're
females.
But
I
will
tell
you,
you
do
not
get
large
groups
of
male
lions
together.
You
only
get

(31:33):
groups
of
female
lions.
You
know,
in
a
in
a
pride,
the
males
will
just
fight.
So
there
might
have
been
one
or
two
males.
You
can't
tell
in
that
picture.
But
when
you
see
a
group
of
lions
painted
on
a
cave
wall,
you
are
looking
at
female
power.
Okay?
And
as
part
of
this
evidence,
right
in
the
center
of
that
same
room,
in
this
very,
very
back
area

(31:53):
where
the
where
the
ritual
is
happening,
you
have
a
Venus
figure
made
out
of
a
stalactite.
So
she
looks
like
a
an
actual
carved
Venus
figure.
Except
she's
not
just
a
carved
Venus
figure.
One
leg
is
a
bull,
a
minotaur,
a
bull's
head
on
a
man's
body.
The
other

(32:13):
leg
goes
up
into
a
lion.
So
if
you
have
a
lioness,
the
female
power
combined
with
the
male
power
as
the
bull
and
they
look
like
they're
having
sex,
basically
the
female
is
slightly
bent
over
and
the
male
is
behind
her
and
they
look
like
a
sex
act
happening
between
a
minotaur

(32:34):
and
a
lioness
person.
And
if
you
get
at
the
right
angle,
you
can
see
it
also
looks
like
a
yin
and
yang.
The
male
is
dark
because
of
the
paintings
of
the
bull,
and
the
lions
are
sort
of
a
lighter
tawny
color.
And
so
you
get
this
kind
of
combination
of
the
light
and
the
dark,
and
then
the
whole
thing
is
forming
this
goddess.
And
so
it's
very
difficult

(32:54):
to
interpret
something
like
that
outside
of
a
ritualistic
kind
of
images
of
this.
Yes.
Yes 6400 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:32:58,999 , there 6401 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01
are.
I
Verner
Herzog
did
a
lovely
piece
on
this
called
Was
It
a
Cave
of
Dreams?
I
have. 6421 00:33:06,259 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
To
find. 6424 00:33:06,739 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Yeah.
You
want
to
see
that?
You
want
to
see
that
movie?
Yeah,
because
there's
not
a
lot
of
people
are
allowed
back
there. 6449 00:33:11,299 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Cave
of
Dream. 6453 00:33:12,199 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Cave
of
Dreams.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not
a
lot
of
people

(33:14):
are
allowed
back
there,
but
it's
a
it's
an
amazing,
amazing
site.
I
have
not
been
back
there,
obviously.
I've
just
seen
the
pictures.
All
right.
So
anyway,
but
these
are
these
are
these
are
clearly
ritualistic
things.
And
you
can
see
this
development
happening
within
European
art.
It's
probably
happening
other
places
as
well.
And
you
see
it
become
more
and
more
ritualized
as

(33:34):
time
goes
on,
as
you
go
from
the
orientation
to
the
solution
to
the
Magdalena
and
you
get
to
later
portions
of
of
cave
art
and
you
see
more
and
more
of
these
rituals,
you
get
ritualized
burials.
You
you
start
to
see
more
characteristics
of
the
animals.
You
see
more
life
in
the
animals.
So
the
animals
start
to
have
expressions
and
feelings.
And
there's
this
general
idea
of

(33:54):
development.
We
probably
had
it
at
other
places,
at
other
times
for
a
long
time.
So
this
this
idea
of
development
is
definitely
imposed
on
what
we're
seeing.
But
there's
still
a
progression.
You
know,
even
if
a
lot
of
this
is
being
imposed,
the
later
stuff
does
tend
be
better.
So
culture
is
developing
over
time,
even
if

(34:14):
it's
a
very
long
time.
These
there's
roughly,
you
know,
10,000
years
within
each
period.
So
these
things
are
widespread.
You
see
similar
symbols
in
several
caves
over
a
very
wide
from
Spain
to
France.
So
this
is
an
identifiable
culture
with
developments
over
time.
And
this
leads
directly
into,
you
know,
the
Neolithic

(34:34):
and
moving
out
of
the
caves
and
putting
these
images
on
pottery.
I
personally
love
the
Bronze
Age
because
to
me,
these
things
look
like
sophisticated
cave
paintings
put
on
to
pots
that
I
go
see
at
the
Met.
Right.
So
they
they're
they're
they're
they're,
they're
well
thought
out
but
they're
a
kind
of
art
that
personally
I
can
understand
I
can
I
can
relate
to

(34:55):
these
kind
of
symbology
by
the
time
you
get
to
classical
art,
I
have
a
harder
time
one
I
would
have
a
more
difficult
time
doing
it.
But
it's
been
so
formalized
that
you
you
lack
the
freedom
that
you
see
in
these
earlier
periods.
And
so
this
is
what
I
see
modernity
have
going
back.
The
modern
artists
talked
a
lot
about
primitive
art.
I
don't
like
that
as
a
term,

(35:15):
but
they
were
going
back
to
these
these
these
symbols
that
are
older
than
what
is
seen
in
classical
periods.
So,
you
know,
sculptures
were
going
back
to
pre-Columbian
Arts.
They
were
going
back
to
even
before
the
the
Mycenaean
somewhat
some
of
the
the
early
the

(35:36):
early
idols
like
the
the
stargazers
these
are
pre
Bronze
Age
idols
found
in
Greece.
I
carved
one
of
those
that's
the
one
with
the
with
the
Opals
in
its
eyes.
So
these
are
images
way
before
the
development
of
of
of
classical
art
and
I
think
this
is
kind
of
what
we're
doing
right
now.
We've,
we
started

(35:56):
by
going
back
to
the
very
earliest
art
or
earlier
art
with
modernity.
This
is
what
Picasso
was
doing
this
this
is
this
is
what
Brancusi
was
doing
This
this
this
is
what
the
major
sculptors
of
the
day
were
going
back
to
some
of
the
the
pre-Columbian
work.

(36:17):
And
then
we
tried
to
go
from
there.
And
so
art
became
faster
and
faster,
always
looking
for
something
new.
And
now
we've
arrived
at
this
point
where
we've
lost,
we've
lost
any
connection
to
time,
and
we
started
to
lose
connections
to
things
themselves.
And
so
one
of
the
one
of
the
movements
within
sculpture
right
now
is
that
we
are.

(36:37):
Postmedia
So
you
have
things,
you
know,
in
the
sixties,
you
have,
you
know,
Marshall
McLuhan
saying
things
like,
you
know,
the
medium
is
the
message.
We've
now
transcended
that
to
the
point
where
there
is
no
medium,
there's
just
message.
And
the
message
could
be
just
put
on
in
a
projector
and

(36:57):
projected
on
the
side
of
a
building.
You
don't
need
to
have
actually
anything
made. 7136 00:37:01,459 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
But
that
is
a
medium
in
and
you
can't
not
have
medium
that. 7150 00:37:04,759 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
I
know 7153 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:37:05,869 . It's 7154 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01
a
it's
a
it's
a
crazy
statement.
And
in
some
ways
and
this
was
why
I
wanted
to. 7173 00:37:11,479 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
I
see
where
it's
going.
But
how
do
you
how
do
you
have
a
message
without
a
medium
to
carry
the
message,
you
can't

(37:17):
convey
the
message. 7201 00:37:19,129 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Okay.
So
this
is
why
I
wanted
to
get
to
Marina
Abram.
Can
I
say
her
name?
ABRAMOVIC
Yes.
Abramovic
The
other
article
in
The
Times
was
by
this
woman.
It
was
an
interview
with
her
where
she
was
describing
her
art,
and
she
is
a
conceptual
artist
who
does
performance
art.
And
so
this

(37:37):
is
art
without
a
thing.
This
is
art
that
is
just
a
an
activity.
And
she
described
as
art
as
the
highest
form
of
communication,
doesn't
have
an
object
anymore.
And
so. 7289 00:37:52,759 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
You
know,
art
doesn't
have
an
object
at. 7298 00:37:55,459 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Its
highest
form.
So
just
like

(37:57):
those
people
with
hand
axes
were
able
to
make
a
hand
act
just
looking
at
the
person
next
to
them
without
talking,
we've
returned
to
this
earliest
moment
where
her
idea
of
the
highest
art
is
not
saying
anything
at
all,
changing
what
is
inside
yourself.
And
then
having
an
impact
on
the
person
you
are
looking

(38:18):
at
and
changing
them
and
that
you've
now
lost
all
mediation.
So
it
is
like
the
disciple
going
to
see
the
master
and
sitting
next
to
the
master
meditating
and
learning
directly
from
their
body
what
energy
is
directly
from
their
body,
How
this
flows
in
the. 7409 00:38:34,009 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Art
is
the. 7413 00:38:35,719 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
The
art
has
become
the
spirituality.
And
so

(38:38):
she
has
is
seeing
this
as
as
the
highest
point
in
art.
And
I
do
agree
with
her.
And
I
think,
again,
this
is
at
the
moment
when
art
is
completely
broken,
right?
It's
become
nothing
at
all. 7460 00:38:47,809 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
You
can't
because
you
cannot
transmit
it
except
to
one
person
at
a
time. 7475 00:38:52,279 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Well,
you
could
if
if
you're
if
this
is
a
video.
Right.
Someone
could
see
this
happening.
There's
there's
no
reason
why
there
can't
be. 7501 00:38:58,579 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:

(38:58):
That
transformation,
though.
Doesn't
that
require
personal
interaction
with
the
artist
in
this
case? 7516 00:39:04,819 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Well,
imagine
a
video
of
someone
making
a
hand
acts
right?
Someone
else
could
make
a
hand
act
simply
from
that
video.
Right.
So
there
is
a. 7544 00:39:12,109 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Maybe. 7546 00:39:13,279 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
It
is
possible
there.
It
is
possible
to
record
these
things.
But
yes,

(39:18):
these
are
outside
of
time.
It
could
be
a
performance
on
a
stage
and
the
whole
audience
is
watching
what
this
thing
is.
So
this
this
is
communication
prior
to
language.
This
is
communication
at
its
most
essential.
And
I
agree
with
her
that
that
is
the
highest
art
being
able
to
just
put
something
out
there.
But
I
also
think
this
is
the
end

(39:38):
of
art
because
there
is
nothing
being
made,
right?
There
is
no
further
thing.
So
this
is
what
I
was
talking
about,
how
things
sort
of
destroy
themselves
and
become
the
next
step.
We
are
now
outside
of
time
and
we're
outside
of
matter.
We
have
left
the
ability
to
have
a
time.
We've
left
the
ability
to
even
even
even
make
things.
And
so
we're
at
a
moment
in
time
where

(39:59):
we
are
a
moment
and
where
artists
are
still
making
things,
but
they
have
sort
of
this
new
meaning.
And
I
sort
of
wanted
to
talk
about
that.
So
in
my
own
art,
the
art
itself
is
about
time
and
I'm
making
it
in
a
medium
that
is
purposely
surviving.
My
wife,
Wendy,
is
doing
similar
things
with
her
cave
art,
so
she
is
taking

(40:20):
pigments,
making
them
herself
that
she
gathers
from
from
from
the
cliffs
and
then
paints
that
in
this
in
the
style
of
cave
art,
because
these
pigments
will
never,
never
fade.
Right?
They
are.
They
are.
They're
iron
oxides.
They
can't
go
anywhere 7805 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:40:35,529 . They 7806 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01
they
will
not
change
over
time.
Same
thing
with
my
Jade.
It

(40:40):
really
is
stable.
It's
not
chemically
active
in
any
way.
It
will
just
sit
there
for
thousands
and
thousands
and
thousands
of
years.
And
so
the
art
itself
is
about
time.
It's
referring
to
earlier
periods
of
time
and
it
is
about
something
that
will
last.
So
we've
gotten
back
to
a
medium.
It's
not
exactly
the
medium
is
the
message.
The

(41:00):
message
is
being
conveyed
within
the
medium,
but
it
can
be
conveyed
to
the
future.
And
so
I'm
trying
to
understand
the
moment
we
are
in
time
and
and
what
has
happened
to
art
as
a
whole.
And
I
think
it
has
I
think
I
think
I
think,
you
know,
my

(41:20):
is
correct
that
we
have
transcended
the
matter
of
art
entirely,
which
is
why
I
think
it's
time
to
start
making
art
out
of
stone
again,
you
know. 7960 00:41:33,289 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
And
and
so
you
are.
Yeah. 7967 00:41:35,029 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
And
so
I
am.
And
so
this,
this
is
something
that,
you
know,
we
had
left
behind,
up,
up,
up
until
really

(41:40):
the
Renaissance
art
was
made
out
of
stone.
It
was
carvings,
it
was
statues.
It
was
right,
right,
right,
right
through
that.
Now,
there
was
obviously
art
up
on
cave
walls,
but
the
but
the
statues
that
people
made,
those
those
Venus
figures
were
always
going
to
be
the
most
precious
possession
you
could
actually
carry.
You
can't
carry
around
a
cave
wall.
And
so
the
idea

(42:01):
of
of
arts
as
things
that
you
would
have
had
always
been
stone
and
it
was
only
really
when
we
get
to
paintings
in
the
Renaissance
where
the
them,
the
ditches
and
such
can
put
their
paintings
up
on
the
wall
and
paintings
are
being
bought,
that
you
get
the
commodification
of
painting
itself. 8111 00:42:16,409 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
You
can't
have. 8115 00:42:17,659 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
It
and
other
people
can't
have
it.
You
know,
later
we
get
we
get

(42:21):
the
museums
where
the
people
now
are
allowed
to
see
these
things.
Napoleon,
you
know,
bring
these
things
into,
into
being
where,
where,
where
a
nation
can
show
off
its
its
loot,
literally,
that
it
has
gathered
from
other
places,
not
necessarily
with
its
permission,
and
then
put
it
into
a
museum
for
everyone
to
see
as
a
display
of
strength.
Right.
So
art
starts
to
form
these
these
these
other
kinds

(42:41):
of
of
abilities,
but
it
had
always
before
that
been
a
way
of
sending
a
message
in
time.
So
Pericles
talks
about
the
highest
form
of
art
isn't
stone.
It's
it's
the
things
we
say
to
each
other.
It's
the
memories
we
pass
on.
But
he
was
saying
that
everyone
knew
that
Stone
was
the
highest
form
of
art.
He
was
trying
to
show
how
we
can
transcend

(43:01):
that,
that,
you
know,
if
you
want
to
be
remembered,
get
yourself
carved
in
a
piece
of
stone.
And
that's
what
the
Greeks
did,
right? 8295 00:43:07,369 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
And
the
only
way
you
get
yourself
carved
on
a
piece
of
stone
is
if
you
tell
a
really
good
story. 8317 00:43:10,399 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Th
tell
a
really
good
story.
So
he
was
trying
to
draw
that
kind
of
connections,
but
it
was
only
after
the
Renaissance
that
paintings
became
important,
ie
carving
has
been
sidetracked,
particularly
hard
stone
carving.
When
we
did
carve,

(43:22):
we
carved
in
marble,
but
these
hard
stones
really
last
better.
They're
just
very
difficult
to
make
big.
And
so
people
liked
big
Art
became
something
that
you
had
to
make
big
had
to
put
on
a
wall
and
wasn't
something
that
was
carved
out
of
jade
that
you
could
put
in
your
pocket.
But
Jade
was
always
seen
as
sort
of
the
epitome
of,
of
of
value
and
lasting
value

(43:42):
and
of
the
art
that
you
could
carry
with
you
in
many,
many
cultures. 8443 00:43:46,269 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
From
Is
the
Chinese
understanding
of
jade
similar
to
that? 8454 00:43:49,639 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
That
is
the
Chinese
understanding,
but
it's
also
the
Mayan
understanding
that
the
jade
artefacts
were
the
highest
thing
that
you
could,
you
could
put
to
an
offering
if
you
broke
it,
which
took
a
lot
of
effort,
a
broken
jade
axe

(44:02):
would
be
a
tremendous
sacrifice
that
you
would
made.
So
these
these
things
were
were
definitely
the
highest
forms
of
art
at
the
time.
So
I'm
trying
to
reference
these
kinds
of
things
in
my
art,
but
I'm
trying
to
then
relate
it
to
a
much
longer
history,
particularly
looking
at
the
transition
from,

(44:23):
say,
Neolithic
to
Bronze
Age
kind
of
works,
which
for
me
have
the
most
lasting
symbols,
right?
These
were
the
sun
symbols
come
from
where
the
Venus
symbols
come
from.
You
know,
a
simply
a
star
looking
like
a
compass.
Rose
was
forever
the
symbol
of
Venus
or
a
or
a
moon.
Right.
These
are
these
are
these
are
symbols
that
we

(44:43):
understood
as
integral
to
who
we
are
as
as
as
humans.
And
we've
carved
and
painted
these
things
forever.
And
so
this
is
the
kind
of
stuff
that
I
think
we
need
to
become
reconnected
with
both
matter
and
time.
And
we
and
I'm
trying
to
do
that
through
my
art,
but
through
an
understanding
of
of
human
evolution
and
our
relationship

(45:03):
to
to
to
our
own
our
own
history
and
and
time. 8686 00:45:08,329 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Fascinating. 8688 00:45:09,349 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Well,
thank
you. 8692 00:45:11,359 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
All
right.
Thank
you
very
much.
We'll
see
you
next
time. 8704 00:45:14,239 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
See
you
next
time.