Dopamine - The Reason We Do Things

Dr. Stout's thoughts on dopamine and his research into dopamine: the reason we do things.

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
Friday,
October
six,
Episode
four.
How
are
you
doing? 11 00:00:11,778 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Good,
good.
Hi,
this
is
Dr.
Stout.
Continuing
where
we
left
off,
but
I'm
taking
a
bit
of
a
tangent,
so
we
were
talking
about
the
growth
of
the
brain
and
imagination
and
abstract
thought
and
language
and
art
and
all
of
that
sort
of
interconnected

(00:27):
aspects
of
human
evolution.
And
I
wanted
to
go
into
a
little
bit
of
my
own
research,
which
is
on
dopamine,
and
I
thought
this
would
be
interesting
because
dopamine
is
sort
of
the
reason
we
do
things.
It
it's
the
goal
in
our
life.
It's
it's
the
it's
the
reward
for
what
we
do.
And
I
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
my

(00:47):
own
theories
on
dopamine,
which
are
different
from
what
a
lot
of
the
established
work
on
dopamine
would
claim.
So
I
have
I
have
some
different
different
thoughts
on
on
the
subject.
So
I
was
interested

(01:07):
in
looking
at
dopamine,
mostly
because
I
have
very
little
funding
and
I
wanted
to
have
something
that
I
could
just
try
out.
And
dopamine
is
relatively
inexpensive
and
I
had
a
bunch
of
crayfish
in
my
lab,
so
I
wanted
to
see
what
would
happen
if
I
gave
dopamine
to
crayfish.
This
isn't
something
that
I
was
a,
you
know,
major,
major
grant
or
anything.
It
was
just
sort
of
a

(01:27):
fishing
expedition
in
that
I
was
just
trying
something
out
to
see
what
would
happen.
And
all
the
literature
agreed.
It
all
said
the
same
thing,
that
dopamine
is
a
stimulant.
Dopamine
is
the
sort
of
active
ingredient
in
things
like
cocaine
or
nicotine
or
caffeine
or
basically
all
methamphetamine.
All
all
the
stimulants
are,
in
everyone's
opinion,

(01:47):
dopamine.
And
so
they
are
dopamine.
Well,
so
here's
the
thing.
Dopamine
cannot
be
given
directly
to
a
mammal
because
we
have
a
brain
blood
barrier.
If
you
take
dopamine,
it
doesn't
get
to
your
brain.
And
so
what
we
do
to
get
that
good
feeling
from
dopamine,
the
reward
is
we
take
dopaminergic

(02:08):
drugs,
drugs
that
generate
dopamine
in
the
brain.
And
so
it's
already
in
the
brain
when
it's
generating
the
dopamine.
And
that
makes
us
feel
good.
And
those
that's
what
makes
us
addicted
to
these
drugs.
So
all. 380 00:02:18,948 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Of
those
drugs
that
you
mentioned
caused
us
to
to
generate
the
dopamine. 394 00:02:24,948 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
In
some
way 398 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:02:25,998 . In 399 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01
some
way.
They
sometimes
they
do
it
in
different
ways.
But
yes,

(02:28):
we
we
end
up
with
more
dopamine
in
the
brain
and
we
feel
great.
An
so
I
thought
that
I
would
be
giving
dopamine
to
my
crayfish.
And
it'll
be
interesting
because
as
far
as
I
could
tell,
no
one
had
ever
done
this.
They
done
it
with
rats,
they
done
with
a
bunch
of
different
things,
but
they
hadn't
tried
crayfish.
And
so
it
was
just
sort
of
a
fishing
expedition,
you
know,
low
level
science.
Let's
try
something.
And
so
I
gave
the
dopamine

(02:48):
to
the
crayfish,
and
the
crayfish
slowed
down
everything,
said
they
should
speed
up,
but
the
crayfish
slowed
down.
So
I
said,
okay,
let's
try
that
again.
Clearly,
I'm
not
doing
this
right.
And
I
tried
it
again
and
I
tried
it
again.
I
tried
a
different
species
of
crayfish,
and
still,
every
time
I

(03:08):
gave
it
to
them,
they,
they,
they
moved
more
slowly.
So
I
was
just
I
was
just
looking
at
them
walking
over
a
grid
after
I'd
done
some
things
to
get
them
to
walk
over
a
grade.
It's
really
actually
hard
to
get
crayfish
to
walk
around.
They
either
want
to
hide
or
they
want
to
run
the
whole
time
with
no,
no
differences.
So
I
had
to
get
them
calm,
but
not
too
calm.
But
anyway,
I
figured
out
how
to
do
all
that.
Then
I
gave
them
the
dopamine
and
they
slowed
down
and
I
could
compare

(03:29):
it
without
the
dopamine.
They
were
faster
and
so,
you
know,
the
first
stuff
I
started
doing
was,
you
know
what?
What
make
them
move
around
faster.
So
I
just
tried
some
very
simple
things.
I
know
crayfish
like
food.
So
I
took
the
water
that
filtered
through
some
food
and
I
gave
it
to
the
crayfish,
and
that
definitely
made
them
move
around
faster.
But
again,
even
in
the
present
when
I
added
dopamine,

(03:49):
even
the
present
presence
of
food
filtrate,
they'd
slow
down
again.
So
then
I
wanted
a
lot
more
data
on
the
crayfish.
I
just
couldn't
get
enough
crayfish
to
get
really
good
statistics.
So
I
started
working
with
much
smaller
shrimp
that
breed
much
faster
called
cherry
shrimp,
and
I
was
able
to
get
a
ton
of
data.
Same
results
every
time
I
gave

(04:09):
it
to
them,
they
slowed
down.
So
why
would
this
be?
I
had
to
come
up
with
a
sort
of
new
hypothesis.
I
thought
I
was
dealing
with
a
stimulant
and
I
was
clearly
not
dealing
with
a
stimulant.
It's
possible
that
crayfish
are
just
unlike
all
other
organisms,
but
that
didn't
seem
true.
Or
all
crustaceans
are
unlike
all
other

(04:29):
organisms
that
didn't
seem
likely.
So
I
wanted
to
just
sort
of
think
about
this
for
a
little
bit.
And
I
realized
that
because
there
was
no
brain
blood
barrier,
all
of
these
stimulants
were
being
given
to
organisms
as
a
collection
of
different
I

(04:50):
different
drugs
essentially
that
could
have
different
effects.
And
one
of
the
things
that
all
of
these
stimulants
also
have
in
common
is
epinephrine.
S
basically
adrenaline.
And
I
do
not
claim
that
adrenaline
is
not
a
stimulant.
It's
something
I'm
going
to
be
working
with
soon.
So
that's
sort
of
a
direction
I'm
going.
But
I
had
to
figure
out
what
was
happening.
Why
would
people
think
of

(05:10):
something
as
a
stimulant
that
was
really
not
a
stimulant?
Was
was
the
opposite
of
that
was
is
in
some
way
inhibitory.
And
I
realized
that
what
people
had
done
is
they
had
mistook
the
nature
of
a
reward
and
we
think
of
a
reward
as
a
stimulant.
A
reward
is
what
makes
you
want
to
do
something.
But
if
you
think
about
the
donkey
chasing
a
carrot
tied

(05:30):
to
a
stick,
if
you
actually
give
the
carrot
to
the
donkey
that
the
donkey
stops
chasing
that
carrot,
it's
sort
of
I
told
my
students,
it's
like
a
grade.
You're
trying
for
the
grade.
The
A
is
your
reward.
But
if
I
give
you
the
A
at
the
beginning
of
the
class,
you
all
slow
down.
And
so
people
have
been
thinking
about
rewards
in
the
wrong
way.

(05:50):
They've
been
thinking
about
rewards
as
something
that
causes
you
to
do
something.
And
then
a
lot
of
the
research
out
there,
I'm
not
saying
any
of
the
researchers
had
done
anything
wrong.
All
of
their
research
was
correct,
but
I
think
they've
been
misinterpreting
it.
So
the
classic
stuff
that's
done
on,
on
on
rats,
they
would
give

(06:10):
dopaminergic
drugs.
They
would
see
them
become
stimulated
and
then
they
would
block
that.
They
would
use
Haloperidol,
Haldol,
the
antipsychotic
drug.
It
blocks
all
dopamine
receptors
and
they
would
watch
the
rats
become
catatonic
and
the
rats
would
just
lie
there
flat.
And
so
in
my
model,
this
was
because
they
no
longer

(06:30):
had
anything
to
strive
for,
right?
Ther
was
nothing
in
their
life
worth
doing,
anything
not
even
standing
up
because
they
no
longer
had
the
option
of
getting
an
A
right.
So
you
tell
the
kids,
none
of
you
are
going
to
pass
this
class
no
matter
what
you
do.
They're
also
not
going
to
do
any
work
right.
So
what
happens
if
I
then
give
them
a
little
bit
of
that
thing?
They
want
just
a

(06:50):
tiny,
tiny
bit.
The
rat's
going
to
get
up
or
at
least
do
something.
So
what
these
researchers
did
back
in
the
late
eighties
was
they
put
a
little
bit
of
cocaine
in
some
water
or
a
little
bit
of
sugar
in
some
water,
put
it
directly
into
the
rat's
mouth
and
watched
the
rat
bother
to
suck
it
down.
So
there
was
a
tiny,
tiny
bit
of
a
reward.
And
they
said
this

(07:10):
means
that
the
reward
is
not
the
same
as
the
thing
that
makes
them
want
to
suck.
The
reward
is
actually
a
stimulus,
and
it's
a
measure
of
so
the
dopamine
is
a
stimulus
and
it's
what
they
call
a
salience
measure.
It's
a
measure
of
the
value
of
the
thing
you're
going
to
get
at
some

(07:31):
later
date.
And
so
dopamine
is
is
the
thing
that
tells
you
you
have
a
carrot
in
front
of
you,
but
is
not
itself
the
carrot.
And
to
me,
this
seemed
a
rather
magical.
Yeah
it's
it
reminded
me
of
of
sort
of
the
Ptolemaic
universe
where
they
start
adding
epicycles
to
things
and
they're
coming
up
with,
you
know,
William
of
Ockham,
Occam's
Razor.
He

(07:51):
said
that
you
shouldn't
multiply
entities.
What
he
was
talking
about
was
angels.
How
many
angels
do
you
need
between
you
and
God?
You
need
to
keep
multiplying
angels
so
you
can
talk
to
God.
Probably
not.
So
we
shouldn't
multiply
entities.
This
seemed
like
they
were
multiplying
entities
that
they
were
going
against
Occam's
Razor.
Now
sometimes
outcomes
are
wrong.
Sometimes
the
complex
explanation
is
true,
especially
in
things
like,

(08:11):
you
know,
neuroscience,
where
things
are
very,
very
complicated.
Already
the
brain
has
many,
many
feedback
loops
all
acting
on
each
other.
It's
very
difficult
to
tease
apart
cause
and
effect.
One
reason
I
really
like
working
with
crustaceans,
crayfish,
everything
is
very
direct,
no
brain
blood
barrier.
I
can
put
the
dopamine
in
and
they
respond
to
it
instantly.

(08:32):
So
the
the
the
model
out
there
was
that
dopamine
was
a
measure
of
salience.
It
was
stimulatory.
The
more
salience
something
had,
the
more
you
would
want
it.
So
the
more
dopamine
you
encountered
in
relation
to
it,
the
more
you
would
want
that
thing.
But
the
thing. 1671 00:08:47,838 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Was
always
going
to
be
a
future
thing.
It
was
not. 1683 00:08:51,408 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Or
it
was
something

(08:52):
else.
It
wasn't
dopamine,
and
I
haven't
quite
figured
out
what
they're
trying
to
say.
It
was.
It
was
the
cocaine
or
the
sugar
or
the
thing
they
put
in
the
mouth
that
made
the
rat
happy.
But
it
wasn't
the
dopamine
itself,
because
their
reasoning
was
if
you
blocked
all
dopamine
with
Haloperidol
and
the
rat
is
lying
there
flat
on
the
ground,
it
wouldn't
look
happy
when
you
put
cocaine

(09:12):
in
its
mouth.
I'm
reasoning
that
it
would
look
happy
when
it
put
cocaine.
It's
not
because
suddenly
it's
getting
a
little
bit
of
that
dopamine
it
wanted.
And
under
those
circumstances,
dopamine
will
be
slightly
stimulatory
in
that
you're
finally
getting
that
thing
you
thought
you
couldn't
get
before.
Similar
experiment
in
fruit
flies.
So
something
that
actually
doesn't
have
a
brain
blood
barrier
is

(09:32):
a
an
invertebrate,
you
know,
not
exactly
a
crustacean,
but
very
closely
another
arthropod,
something
with
a
jointed
exoskeleton.
And
what
they
did
is
they
made
fruit
flies
that
didn't
express
dopamine.
Now,
if
you
remove
all
dopamine,
the
thing's
dead.
So
it
had
a
tiny
bit,
but
it
was
a
what
they
called
a
dopamine
knockout
fruit
fly.
So
it
wasn't
expressing
any
dopamine.

(09:53):
And
these
these
fruit
flies
weren't
flying
around
doing
nothing
like
the
rats
were.
They
put
a
tiny
bit
of
sugar
water
with
some
dopamine
under
the
fruit
flies
and
the
fruit
flies
started
drinking
the
sugar
water
with
the
dopamine
in
it.
And
so
they
said
this
confirmed
what
they'd
seen
in
the
rats
that
they
were
the
fruit
flies
were
acting
exactly
as
the
rats

(10:13):
were.
Dopamine
was
not
a
reward.
Dopamine
was
something
that
measured.
The
reason
you
would
bother
sucking
was
because
you
were
now
getting
some
dopamine.
And
so
dopamine
was
a
stimulant
and
it
was
all
just
a
measure
of
reward.
I
find
all
of
this
confusing
and
too
much.
Okay.
A
reward
is
the
measure
of
reward.
If
I
want
to
know
how
much
money
I'm

(10:33):
going
to
get,
it's
the
pile
of
money,
right?
The
A
is
the
measure
of
the
reward,
but
it
is
not
separate
from
the
thing
you're
trying
for.
The
actual
grade
is
the
thing
you're
trying
to
get.
Dopamine
is
the
actual
reward.
You
measure
the
reward
by
how
much
dopamine
you
get.
Now,
there's
some
interesting
things.
You
can
get
more
dopamine
when

(10:54):
you
get
an
unexpected
thing
that's
happening
to
you.
So
if
you
meet
someone
beautiful
who
you
really,
really
like
for
the
first
time,
your
brain
is
going
to
release
a
bunch
of
dopamine.
You
meet
them
a
second
time,
your
brain's
going
to
release
a
slightly
less
dopamine,
but
you're
going
to
want
to
meet
them
that
second
time
because
of
that
first
time
when
you
got
that
reward.
So
dopamine
tells
you
what

(11:14):
to
do.
It
gives
you
a
little
bit
of
an
extra
sort
of
extra
credit
if
you
get
something
unexpected
happening 2184 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:11:19,908 . But 2185 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01
it's
the
measure
of
the
things
you
want
to
do
and
our
brain
can't
tell
the
difference.
So
it'll
give
us
dopamine
for
almost
anything.
Our
primate
ancestors
would
have
seen
fruit
ripening
on
a
tree.
That
fruit
would
have
turned
orange
or
red
signaling.

(11:34):
Let's
go
get
that
fruit
that
those
are
those
are
colors
that
will
stimulate
some
dopamine.
So
we're
often
stimulated
by
flashing
lights
and
bright
colors.
This
is
what
all
the
video
games
do
to
give
us
rewards
and
make
us
want
to
come
back
and
do
it.
This
is
why
we
do
things
that
are
addictive.
Give
us
dopamine.
And
part
of
the
reason
why
many
things
online
can
be
addictive
is
the
the

(11:54):
fast
editing,
the
flashing
lights,
the
bright
colors.
All
of
these
things
stimulate
our
brain,
give
us
rewards
and
make
us
want
to
come
back.
I'm
not
arguing
with
any
part
of
that
particular
model.
I'm
just
saying
that
I
think
they're
thinking
about
these
things
wrong,
that
dopamine
is
exactly
what
we've
always
thought
it
was.
It's
a
reward

(12:14):
and
you
give
something
the
reward,
they
slow
down,
but
you
prevent
all
rewards
and
they
also
slow
down
and
you
give
a
little
bit
of
a
reward
back
again
and
things
might
start
moving
again
because
now
they
have
an
incentive.
They
know
what
they're
going
to
try
for.
So
again,
it's
the
carrot
on
the
end
of
the
stick.
You
give
them
the
carrot,
they
don't

(12:34):
they
don't
chase
it
anymore.
But
if
there's
no
carrot
there,
they
also
don't
chase
it.
Right.
So
dopamine
is
the
the
actual
physical
goal.
And
all
of
my
research
seemed
to
to
to
to
go
with
that
really
well,
I
was
able
to
isolate
at
least
one
of
the
causes
for
stimulation
and
crayfish.

(12:54):
Right.
I
started
off
with
looking
at
food,
filtrate.
I
then
found
out
it's
the
amino
acid
I
glutamate
that
really
makes
them
run
around.
And
I
this
is
glutamate.
It's
interesting.
It's
almost
the
only
thing
that
does
go
through
a
brain
blood
barrier
is
the
number
one
stimulatory
neurotransmitter

(13:15):
in
the
brain.
And
it's
definitely
the
signal
for
food
in
in
crayfish.
And
it's
also
the
signal
for
protein
in
our
in
our
in
our
tastes.
Right.
So
we
only
have
a
few
tastes,
you
know,
salty,
savory. 2579 00:13:28,638 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
It
passes
through
the
blood. 2585 00:13:31,188 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Brain
blood
barrier.
Yeah.
So,
so
if
you
eat
glutamate,
it
will
go
into
your
brain
and

(13:35):
is
having
an
effect
as
a
neurotransmitter.
I
had
not
really
realized
this
until
I
started
doing
this
research.
And
so
glutamate
for
free
for
the
crayfish
or
the
shrimp
is
a
signal
that
they
there's
there's
food
somewhere
in
the
water.
And
so
they
run
around.
I
give
them
dopamine,
they
slow
down
again.
I
block
that
dopamine
with
haloperidol,
they
speed
back

(13:55):
up
again.
I
suspect
if
I
tried
longer
term
studies,
if
I
gave
them
Haloperidol
for
an
entire
day,
they
wouldn't
speed
back
up
again,
right?
They
would
just
stay
slowed
down
because
now
they
have
no
reward.
I
think
that
part
of
what
I'm
doing
is
I'm
working
with
undergraduates.
No
one
has
any
patients.
We
have
no
funding.
So
I
do
20
minute

(14:15):
experiments.
And
so
in
those
20
minutes,
if
I
blocked
dopamine,
all
the
shrimp
don't
realize
they've
lost
the
carrot.
They
just
think
that
the
carrot
is
hidden
somewhere.
So
they
have
to
keep
running
around
looking
for
it.
I
think
if
I
did
it
for
24
hours,
they
would
they
would
run
out
of
energy
over
time,
you
know?
And
so
these
are
some
directions
I
want
to
go
with
my
future

(14:36):
research.
I
particularly
want
to
look
at
caffeine.
Caffeine
is
a
nice
legal
drug
that
I
can
work
with.
And
I've
actually
found
research
out
there
that
says
caffeine
is
a
stimulant
in
shrimp.
And
I'm
like,
aha!
And
they
said,
it's
a
stimulant
in
shrimp
because
of
dopamine.
I
said,
You're
wrong.
So
I
can
I
can
I
can
demonstrate
this
because

(14:56):
I
can
block
I
can
block
epinephrine,
I
can
I
can
use
beta
blockers
and
alpha
blockers
to
block
all
the
receptors
for
the
adrenaline
related
drugs,
the
neuro
epinephrine,
all
of
these
things.
I
can
block
dopamine
and
I
can
give
both
these
things.
So
I
can
give
caffeine
on
its
own.
I
can
give
caffeine

(15:16):
with
dopamine
blocked.
I
can
give
caffeine
with
epinephrine
blocked,
and
I
can
give
these
things
separately
so
I
can
show
that
dopamine
is
not
a
stimulant
on
its
own.
Epinephrine
is
a
stimulant
on
its
own.
And
then
I
can
show
caffeine
working
with
and
without
these
things.
So
that's
sort
of
my
future
direction.
I'm
planning
that
next
semester.
I'm
very
confident
in
what

(15:36):
I
will
find,
because
I
did,
you
know,
a
couple
hundred
shrimp
and
many,
many
crayfish
looking
at
them
with
dopamine
and
haloperidol.
An
definitely
it
is
it
is
inhibitory.
And
I
also
have
some
other
hints
on
the
model
using
dopamine
as
a
measure
of,
as
they
say,
salience.

(15:56):
I
call
it
teen
salience.
Teen
Salience
can't
explain
all
of
the
available
observational
data
out
there.
It
certainly
works
in
their
rat
models
because
of
how
I
described
it.
Right?
You
give
them
Haloperidol
the
flat,
you
put
some
cocaine
in
their
mouth,
I
bother
to
bother
to
suck
it
and
look
happy
about
it.
That's
like

(16:17):
their
whole
model
is
based
on.
If
you
think
about
ADHD,
ADHD
is
classified
as
a
dopamine
deficiency
because
of
my
work
with
glutamate,
I
wonder
if
it's
more
a
glutamate
surfeit,
right?
So
it
might
be
neurotransmitter
is
activating
the
brain
too
much

(16:37):
rather
than
I
not
having
enough
dopamine.
But
the
model
works
for
me,
right?
If
you
have
more
dopamine,
you
are
more
focused
because
you're
not
seeking
something
all
the
time.
You're
not
looking
for
that
carrot.
If
you
have
a
little
bit
of
that
carrot,
you're
going
to
calm
down
a
little
bit.
And
so
that
would
actually
align
with
the
ADHD

(16:57):
model
people
who
have
attention
deficit
to
deficit
disorder
are
always
seeking
rewards.
They
have
a
tendency
to
seek
dopamine
providing
drugs.
They
have
a
tendency
to
do
thrill
seeking.
They
often
make
a
lot
of
bad
decisions
because
they're
always
looking
for
that
next
reward.
And
so
the
model
is
that
they
don't
have
enough
dopamine.

(17:17):
I'm
not
positive
this
this
model
is
entirely
right.
I
think
it
might
be
too
much
glutamate,
but
that's
a
separate
issue.
But
certainly
more
dopamine
would
help,
right?
They
would
they
would
calm
down.
So
how
do
we
treat
ADHD?
We
give
people
essentially
amphetamines.
We
give
amphetamines
to
people
who
are
hyperactive
to
calm
them
down.
How
does
this
make
any
sense?
It
makes
sense
because

(17:38):
the
dopamine
calms
them
down.
If
they
now
had
a
reward,
the
epinephrine
portion
is
still
stimulating.
If
you
are
if
you
have
ADHD
and
you
are
taking
a
an
amphetamine,
you
can
have
a
hard
time
eating
because
that's
what
stimulants
do.
Your
heart
is
going
to
race
quickly
because
that's
what
stimulants
do,
particularly
for
epinephrine.
You're

(17:58):
going
to
have
a
hard
time
sleeping
because
that's
what
stimulants
do.
It's
not
that
the
amphetamine
has
suddenly
magically
for
you
not
being
a
stimulant.
You
as
as
someone
with
ADHD
certainly
are
being
stimuli
aided
by
amphetamines. 3429 00:18:12,618 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
according
to
your
theory,
then
what
would
be
a
better
treatment? 3442 00:18:17,118 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
That
would
be
hard.

(18:20):
Something
that
that
that
that
slows
down
the
amount
of
glutamate
in
the
brain
providing
dopamine
in
some
way
separate
from
the
stimulatory
effects
of
amphetamines
would
be
another
possibility.
You
know,
amphetamines
are
not
the
only
way
to
get
I
don't
mean
to
the
brain,
it's
just
that
in
general,
dopamine
is,
you
know,

(18:41):
found
in
stimulants.
But
there
are
a
few
other
things.
Marijuana,
for
example,
is
slightly
less
stimulatory
but
does
provide
dopamine.
It
just
has
its
own
issues,
memory,
etc.
But
too
much
dopamine
actually
does
have
problems.
Okay.
So
this
is
why,
for
example,
methamphetamine
use
is
often

(19:01):
associated
with
various
kinds
of
psychosis.
Dopamine
leads
to
schizophrenia.
Schizophrenics
have
way
too
much
dopamine
in
their
brain.
And
so
you
treat
schizophrenics
with
something
like
Haldol,
haloperidol,
classic,
you
know,
One
Flew
Over
the
Cuckoo's
Nest.
People
don't
stand
there,
don't
say
anything,
don't
move,
because
they've
been
given
this
dopamine

(19:21):
blocking
thing
and
they
have
no
no
joy
in
their
life.
We've
gotten
a
little
bit
better
with
this.
There
are
a
few
selective
antipsychotics
that
block
some
dopamine
somewhere
in
the
brain,
but
not
other
places.
So
it's
been
a
little
bit
adjusted.
B
these
are
these
are
ways
that
we've
figured
out
to
lower
agitation
in
in
in,

(19:43):
you
know,
patient
patients
who
are
in,
you
know,
mental
distress.
Haloperidol
will
work
that
way
because
it's
often
too
much
dopamine.
So
these
are
what
we
see
often
with
things
like
amphetamines
and
and
with
with
cannabis
as
well.
Typically
the
side
effects
include
paranoia.
This
is
a
side
effect
that
is
caused
by

(20:03):
too
much
dopamine.
So
these
these
drugs
have
what
you
would
expect
in
terms
of,
you
know,
classic
effects,
as
predicted,
They
work
as
rewards.
They
they
they
make
us
want
them
more.
And
and
the
model
fits
for
most
of
it.
Right.
So
that
dopamine
is
in
fact
a
measure
of

(20:23):
a
reward.
But
that
reward
is
the
dopamine.
So
their
model
kind
of
works
for
a
lot
of
situations,
but
I
don't
think
it
explains
ADHD
people.
Right.
It
doesn't
explain
why
it
would
make
you
focus
more
when
you're
given
an
amphetamine.
It
doesn't
it
doesn't
explain
the
entire
model.
Right.
Why
why
would
hyperactivity
be
defined
as
a
dopamine

(20:44):
deficiency?
If
we
think
dopamine
causes
activity?
Right.
Hyperactivity
would
be
more
of
that
thing.
What
happens
when
you
have
too
much
dopamine
is
you
end
up
with
with
with
psychosis,
which
is
something
else
entirely.
So
not
enough
dopamine.
We
run
around
looking
for
things
too
much
dopamine.

(21:04):
We
become
paranoid.
But
if
we
can
nail
it
just
right,
then
we're
happy.
And
so
this
is
this
is
this
is
you
know,
I'm
in
agreement
with
the
original
model
of
dopamine.
The
dopamine
is
a
reward.
It's
the
reason
we
want
to
do
things.
And
our
brain
can't
tell
the
difference
between
one
thing
of
dopamine
and
another.
Ri?
So
if
we
meet
the
person
we
love,
we
get
dopamine.
But
if
we
want

(21:24):
to
invite
someone
on
a
date,
on
a
date,
you
take
them
out
to
dinner.
The
person
can't
tell
the
difference
between
the
dopamine
provided
by
the
dinner
and
the
dopamine
provided
by
the
sparkling
conversation.
Right?
So
our
brain
just
eats
all
this
stuff
up,
right?
We
were
evolved
to
be
attracted
to
bright
colors
and
things
that

(21:44):
would
give
us
food
as
as
primates
and
monkeys
in
the
trees.
So
we
give
each
other
a
bunch
of
flowers
when
we
go
on
a
date.
The
bright
colors
of
the
flowers
provide
dopamine
to
the
brain,
signal
those
things
that
are
attracted
to
these
colors.
And
again,
you
can't
tell
the
difference,
but
so
you
now
like
the
person
who
gave
you
the
flowers
because
the
flowers

(22:05):
gave
you
a
reward.
And
our
brain
can't
tell
the
difference
between
the
person
and
the
flowers.
Same
thing
with
perfume.
So,
you
know,
I
was
just
talking
to
my
students
about
this
flower
is
have
a
scent
to
attract
a
pollinator.
Those
scents
were
originally
derived
from
I
insect

(22:25):
sex
pheromones,
and
the
flowers
didn't
want
to
just
have
those
particular
sex
pheromones,
but
they
wanted
to
attract
males
and
butterflies.
So
they
modified
slightly
moth
and
butterfly
insect
sex
pheromones
and
made
a
perfume
out
of
it
to
attract
the
moth
and
butterflies
to
come
as
pollinators.
We
then
take
that
same
thing
that's
been

(22:46):
evolved
co-evolved
between
animals
and
plants
to
attract
animals.
And
we
put
that
perfume
on
ourselves.
When
someone
comes
and
smells
it,
they
get
a
little
dopamine
reward
and
they
say,
Oh,
I
really
like
you.
And
what
they
really
like
is
the
scent
of
scent
of
something
tasty
or
the
floral
smell
that
is
originally
designed
as
a
as
a

(23:06):
plant
manipulation
to
cause
a
dopamine
response
in
a
in
a
moth.
And
so
all
across
the
the
the
the
the
animal
kingdom,
dopamine
is
is
is
used
as
as
as
incentives,
as
ways
to
make
things
happen.
Plants
are
constantly
manipulating
these
things.
They
found
small
amounts
of
caffeine
in
nectar,

(23:27):
again,
rewarding
things
to
come
back.
Dopamine
is
associated
with
memory.
They
think
that
when
bees
find
a
little
bit
of
caffeine
in
the
nectar,
they'll
remember
that
plant
over
other
plants
because
now
they've
been
given
a
little
bit
more
of
the
reward.
I
think
there
may
well
be
some
interactions
with
glucose,
but
that's
complicated.
So
some
things
are
themselves

(23:47):
attractive.
Like
do
glucose
is
the
number
one
energy
molecule
for
all
cells
in
all
things.
So
I
think
glucose
maybe
is
even
more
primary
to
as,
as,
as,
as
a
as
a
thing
we
want
than
even
dopamine
is.
But
again,
dopamine
would
be
the
measure
of
how
good
that
glucose
was.
Right.

(24:07):
So
if
you
get
a
piece
of
candy
immediately,
your
brain
is
is
is
is
releasing
some
dopamine
and
saying,
do
that
again.
That
was
great.
Right?
And
then
you'll
want
that
even
more
if
the
candy
is
brightly
colored.
Right.
So
all
all
of
these
things
are
related.
We
were
always
seeking
these
these
various
rewards.
We
we're
using
them
in
our
lives

(24:27):
all
the
time.
You
know,
the
fashion
industry
talks
about
dopamine
colors.
They're
talking
about
red
and
yellow
and
orange,
the
things
that
would
signal
a
ripe
fruit
to
a
primate.
There
are
these
these
are
our
co-evolved
heritage
of
rewards
that
plants
have
manipulated
into
our
brains.
If
we
didn't

(24:48):
if
we
had
not
learned
how
to
respond
to
the
bright
colors
of
ripe
fruit,
we
would
have
starved.
So
we
responded
to
those
bright
fruit
fruits
The
plants
wanted
us
to
spread
their
seeds,
right?
They
wanted
us
to
eat
the
orange
and
poop
out
the
orange
seeds
so
the
plants
co-evolved
with
us.
They
made
better
colors
when
we
ate
those
things,
they

(25:08):
got
they
did
better
because
they
spread
their
seeds.
If
we
didn't
see
those
colors
and
we
didn't
get
a
reward
from
it,
we
didn't
eat
the
food.
And
so
we
didn't
didn't
survive.
So
this
was
a
coevolution
of
of
a
system
of
rewards
that
had
already
pre-existed.
And
that's
why
that's
why
I
think
that
it
legitimate
to
be
working
with
crayfish
and
crustaceans
in
general,

(25:28):
because
I
think
that
the
dopamine
is
so
basic
to
the
way
all
life
has
evolved
that
I
looking
at
an
entirely
nother
branch
of
the
animal
kingdom
other
than
other
than
mammals,
I
think
is
useful.
And
I
think
what
I
have
done
is
I've
come
up

(25:48):
with
a
simpler
model
that
explains
how
dopamine
works,
that
is
is
is
better
than
the
existing
ones.
And
it
explains
more
of
of
the
observed,
you
know,
the
universe
around
us.
Fascinating.
Well,
thank
you
so
much.
All
right.
So
that's
my
research.
I
will
talk
again
next
week. 4766 00:26:08,198 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
One

(26:09):
bit
of
your
research. 4772 00:26:10,598 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Yes.
Well,
that's
that's
what
I'm
focusing
on
at
this
particular
moment
in
time. 4787 00:26:14,498 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
All
right.
Very
good.
Well,
thank
you
very
much.
We'll
see
you
next
time. 4802 00:26:18,698 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Stout:
Excellent.
Thank
you.