The Barbie Movie and Primate Mating Systems

Today Dr. Josh Stout talks about male and female stereotypes without biological sex in the Barbie Movie and resource based mating patterns in the Great Apes.

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
today
is
also
Friday,
January
19th.
We're
doing
a
double
record
here
because
we
took
such
a
long,
long
hiatus.
And
this
is.
This
is
episode
three
of
season
two.
Hi,
Josh.
Hi,
Eric.
Careful
in
the
minefield. 40 00:00:19,546 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Yeah,
indeed.
So
today
I'd
like
to
talk
about
gender
and
the

(00:27):
Barbie
movie
and
primate
mating
systems.
Originally,
I'd
been
thinking
about
talking
about
how
the
mating
systems
of
the
great
apes
influence
modern
gendered
society.
And
then
I
saw
the
Barbie
movie
and
said,
Oh,
well,

(00:47):
as
a
society,
we're
talking
about
this.
And
it
was
it
was
it
was
much
more
fun
than
I
thought.
I
had
expected
something
very
lightweight
and
and
just
sort
of
a
girly
lightweight,
kind
of
whatever
it
is.
And
that
is
not
what
it
was. 135 00:01:02,146 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
No,
no,
Greta
Gerwig
is
not. 142 00:01:04,066 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
And
it
was
it
was
much
more
interesting
than
I'd
expected.
It
didn't
it
didn't
really

(01:08):
extend
the
conversation,
particularly
in
most
ways.
I
think
it
was
mostly
covering
well-trodden
ground. 174 00:01:16,366 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Enabled
the
converse,
but. 179 00:01:17,506 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
It
definitely
enabled
conversations.
And
what
it
really
did
was
focus
on
gender
stereotypes,
which
is
a
little
bit
different
from
what
I
was
thinking
about
with
the
primate
mating
systems,
which
was
sort

(01:28):
of
gendered
society,
gender,
social
relationships
and
the
Barbie
movie
was
more
focused
on
personal
gender
stereotypes,
like
how
you
are
as
a
person,
as
a
person
with
a
gender.
And
it's
a
little
bit
different,
but
I
thought
it
would
go
well
together
since
it
was,
you
know,
they're
both
roughly
plus

(01:49):
at
the
same
time. 271 00:01:49,986 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
At
the
end,
she
actually
becomes
physically
gendered,
but. 281 00:01:54,946 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Well,
she
eventually
has
a
vagina.
Is
that
the
same
as
gender?
And
that's
sort
of
what's
being
explored
the
entire
time. 304 00:02:03,456 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Yes.
That
is
the
issue,
isn't
it? 312 00:02:04,756 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Yes.
And
this
this
this
is
sort
of

(02:09):
where
things
become
problematic
and
there's
an
entire
minefield.
And
it's
difficult
to
talk
about
something
that
is
linguistically
a
binary.
And
we
now
no
longer
live
in
a
society
that
is
defining
gender
in
a
binary
terms,
necessarily.
Yes,
the
larger
society
certainly
still
does.

(02:29):
But
those
of
us
who
are
progressively
minded
are
realizing
that
that
is
a
limiting
way
to
look
at
the
world.
And
it
is
what
I
would
call
overly
determined
that
things
are
too
much
one
thing
or
another,
and
the
world
isn't
really
like
that,
and
that
a
less

(02:49):
determined
set
of
genders
in
the
world,
I
think
actually
reflects
reality
better
than
a
purely
binary
one.
And
this
is
coming
as
a
biologist.
So,
you
know,
as
as
as
a
biologist,
I
understand
that
there
are
that
there
are
males
and
females,
right?
So
we
have
this,
you
know,
perfect
binary
situation,

(03:09):
but
it
is
in
no
way
really
that
right.
These
are
sets
of
behaviours
and
their
sets
of
physiology. 490 00:03:16,336 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
I
mean,
well
I
mean
there's,
there's
an
egg
and
there's
a
sperm.
Exactly.
And
that's. 507 00:03:20,416 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
All
right.
And
that's
that,
that,
that,
that,
that's
like
hard
fact.
Physiology
binary.
Male,
female.
But
you
know
there
is,
there
is,
there's
many
sort
of
intersex

(03:29):
kind
of
things.
These
are
rare.
You
can
be
sex.
Why,
why,
why. 549 00:03:34,126 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
We
are
not
eggs. 554 00:03:35,566 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Right.
Right.
All
right,
people.
So
we
have
we.
So
there's
there's
there's
chromosomal
differences.
But
but
it's
it's.
It's
well,
well
beyond
that.
So,
for
example,
my
female
dog
acts
like
a
female
dog.
I
mean,
that's
a

(03:50):
misnomer.
Female
dog
is
like
dog
means
male.
But
whatever
my
bitch
is,
is
is
a
female
and
she
acts
like
a
female
dog
because
that's
how
they
do.
They,
they,
they,
they
squat
to
pee
and
they,
you
know,
I
will
will,
you
know,
lower
their
hind
end
submissively.

(04:11):
That's,
that's
a
female
behaviour.
But
if
I
lie
on
the
ground
suddenly
she
acts
in
a
much
more
masculine
way
and
starts
trying
to
jump
my
head.
You
know,
this
is
a
male
activity.
Female
dogs
will
sometimes
raise
their
leg
in
a
male
activity,
so
the
actual
behaviours
for
animals
are
much
less
fixed
than
we
normally

(04:31):
think
of
them
and
that
they're
somewhat
dependent
and
society
influenced.
So
for
example,
hyenas,
the. 719 00:04:41,536 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Way
we
interpret
them,
are
society. 726 00:04:43,006 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
No,
no,
no,
no,
no,
no.
These
I,
you
know,
you
know
the,
the,
the,
the,
the,
the
actual
like

(04:51):
when
a
dog
grips
your
leg
and
starts
humping
your
leg,
that
is
an
absolutely
male
activity
that
is
not
interpreted.
That
is
a
biologically
determined.
Okay.
It
is
what
you
do
if
you
have
a
penis.
Right.
And
you
want
to
put
it
in
a
vagina.
Right.
Okay.
That
is
an
only
male,
you
know,
purely
binary
kind
of
situation
that
my
female
dog

(05:11):
does.
She's
I
wouldn't
say
that's
a
trans
behaviour.
It's
just
she's
doing
what
dogs
do.
And
there's,
there's
a
variety
of
behaviours
that
dogs
can
have.
Yeah.
And
we
generally
put
them
into
this
binary
system,
but
it's
not
nearly
that
cut
and
dry. 857 00:05:27,786 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
That's
what
I
meant.
The
way
we
interpret. 866 00:05:29,236 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
It,
the
way
we
interpret
it,
and
that
this
is

(05:31):
normal,
that
that
these
kind
of
non-binary
behaviours
are
normal
in
the
animal
world,
In
the
animal
world,
which
is
fundamentally
binary,
it's
sort
of
a
chromosomal
level,
but
not
even
necessarily
that
I
for
example,

(05:52):
when
there
are
dyes,
I
got
a
twins
and
one
is
male
and
one
is
female.
Not
only
are
there
hormonal
influences
each
twin
on
each
other
in
the
uterus,
but
they
have
found
y
chromosomes
in
the
brain
of
the
mother.
So
some

(06:13):
of
the
fetal
tissue
is
not
only
getting
through
the
placenta,
which
it's
not
supposed
to
do,
but
then
getting
all
the
way
to
the
brain,
which
it's
really
not
supposed
to
do,
mother
of
the
mother. 994 00:06:23,296 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So
and
crossed
two
barriers
that
it's
not
supposed. 1004 00:06:26,926 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
That
it's
not
supposed
to.
And
she
becomes
a
chimera.
So
these
are
things
that
have
only
being
able
to
be
done
with
with
the
way
modern
genetics

(06:33):
works.
If
you
want
to
look
for
something,
you
put
in
a
primer
for
it
and
it
makes
you
know,
it's
it
makes,
you
know,
billions
of
copies
of
whatever
that
thing
you're
looking
for.
And
so
even
very
small
amounts
can
be
amplified
to
the
point
where
you
can
find
it.
And
so
if
you
put
a
Y
chromosome
in,
no
one
would
ever
do
this
for
a
female.
But
they

(06:53):
started
trying
and
they
found
y
chromosomes
in
the
brains
of
mothers
who
had
had
male
children.
Wow.
And
they
found
it
was
partially
protective
against
Alzheimer's.
So
it's
not
just
that
this
exists,
but
there's
an
actual
physical
like
benefit
to
it

(07:14):
to
having
this
Y
chromosome
and
your
brain
starts
to
change
the
way
proteins
are
encoded
in
the
brain.
So
this
this
even
even
at
a
at
a
very,
very
basic
cellular
chromosomal
level,
things
are
not
perfectly
cut
and
dried.
And
when
you
get
to
where
you're
looking
at
actual
mating
behaviour.
So
for
example,
if

(07:34):
you
know
the
interesting
situations
where
due
to
some
pollution,
some
endocrine
receptors,
all
the
males
were
no
longer
interested
in
the
females
and
you
know,
a
group
of
gulls
in
New
Jersey.
So
the
females
started
cohabitating
and
laying
all
their
eggs
in
the
same
nest.
The
researchers
were
counting
gull
eggs
and
they
discovered
that
suddenly
they
doubled

(07:54):
the
number
of
gull
eggs
and
had
zero
chicks.
And
they
were
going,
What
the
heck's
going
on?
And
they
realised
what
had
happened
is
the
females
had
just
adjusted
their
behaviour
because
they
needed
a
partner
to
nest
with.
Right.
It
didn't
work
out
biologically
for
them,
but
it
but
it
satisfied
their
behavioural
needs
now
they
had
a
partner

(08:15):
to
nest
with.
So
there's
a
ton
of
flexibility
at
essentially
every
level
within
the
biological
world.
And
gender
is
both
biologically
and
societally
determined
and
evolutionarily
determined,
but
it's
not
fixed.
It
tends
to
be
binary,
but
there

(08:35):
is
a
lot
of
grey
areas
and
movement
within
it.
So
for
example,
hyenas,
the
female
hyena
is
the
dominant
member
of
her
group
of
hyenas,
her
her
pack,
I
would
guess
I
would
call
it,
I
don't
know,
really.
Goat
cats
have
prides
wolves
have
packs.
Hyenas
are
sort
of
halfway
between
the
two
quarter

(08:55):
pack.
Okay,
I
think
it's
a
pack
of
hyenas.
All
right?
I
mean,
she
not
only
has
stereotypical
male
behaviours,
but
actually
develops
what
it's
called
a
pseudo
penis.
It
looks
like
a
penis
and
looks
like
a
scrotum
just
from,
you
know,
her
own
anatomy
is
now
formed.

(09:15):
This
thing
that
looks
like
one.
So
when
she
goes
and
dominates
the
other
hyenas,
she's
going
to
mount
them
and
press
against
them
with
her
pseudo
penis
and
act
like
a
male.
And
so
this
is
part
of
her
whole
dominance
display.
It's
part
of
her
dominance
behaviour.
So
sex
and
gender
is
not
always
about
reproduction.
It's
also

(09:36):
about
dominance
relationships.
It's
about
position
in
a
hierarchy
and
relationships.
And
so
concept
of
biological
gender
can
include
hierarchical
relationships
and
is
also
fluid
where
where,
you
know,
it's
often
accusation

(09:56):
about
a
dominant
woman
appears
masculine
because
we
associate
dominance
with
masculinity.
And
this
is
this
is
something
that's
part
of
biology.
And
these
associations
are,
you
know,
absolutely
part
of
the
way.
Certainly
vertebrates,
higher

(10:16):
vertebrates
work
within
a,
you
know,
biological
duality
that
there
is
there
is
much
more
fluidity.
So
anyway,
let's
get
to
the
Barbie
movie.
I
want
to
talk
about
what
gender
stereotypes
are
for
me
as
a
biologist.
The
interesting
thing
was
that
you
have
these
extreme
gender
stereotypes
without
any
sexuality,

(10:37):
so
they
have
no
genitals.
And
that
that's
that's
important
for
Barbie.
But
it
was
really
important
for
Ken,
and
it
became
sort
of
part
of
the
analysis
of
their
relationship
was,
you
know,
he
could
only
have
a
good
day
if
she
looked
at
him.

(10:57):
And
that
was
really,
really
clear.
And
so
what
that
what
that
made
me
think
of
was
was
incels
who
are,
you
know,
basically
miserable
people
because
a
woman
won't
have
sex
with
them
and
that
he
lives
in
a
world
of
of
of
essentially
pure
desire
with
no
gratification.

(11:18):
And
he's
always,
always
wanting
that
gratification
from
Barbie,
but
it's
never
going
to
last
beyond.
She
looked
at
him
that
day
and
there's
no
further
to
it.
And
the
other
interesting
thing
is,
after
removing
the
sort
of

(11:38):
I
am
sexual
male
female
relationship
aspects,
he
started
looking
really
gay
in
a
way
that
friends
of
mine,
when
they
saw
the
movie
before
me,
said,
Look,

(11:59):
as
a
gay
man,
this
is
really
interesting
to
me.
And
that
the
people
were
talking
about
the
the
they
feminism
aspects
of
the
Barbie
movie,
but
there
was
a
whole
nother
level
which
wasn't
being
talked
about
and
that
so
so
my
neighbour
was
saying
you
should
watch
this
and
look

(12:19):
for
this
when
you
see
it.
And
I
found
it
really
interesting
so
that
when
they
go
into
the,
into
the
real
world,
Ken
and
Barbie
are
both
having
people
look
at
them.
It
makes
Ken
happy
and
it
makes
Barbie
uncomfortable.
And
Ken
mentions,
yes,
it's
men
and

(12:39):
it's
it's
men
who
do
this,
this
gazing
the
male
gaze
at
men
and
at
women
and
made
it
was
making
Ken
comfortable
and
happy
and
it
was
making
Barbie
less
comfortable
and
less
happy.
So
it
was
really
interesting
to
see
almost
like
a

(12:59):
Greek
take
on
homosexuality
as
a
relation,
a
manly
relationship
between
men
in
a
manly
way,
that
this
was
an
ultimate,
manly,
dominant
kind
of
way,
so
that
suddenly
the
pinks
and
the
fuchsias
in
his
costume
were
were
were
bright
and
assertive
and
not
how
we
normally

(13:21):
think
of.
I
know
homosexuality
is
as,
as
being
feminine,
you
know,
male
homosexual
is
seen
as
being
somehow
lesser
because
they're
more
feminine
and
this
is
seen
as
lesser.
And
he
was
saying,
no,
I
am
the
ultimate
man.
And
so
when
they
went
back
to
Barbie
land
and
he
took
over,
he
took
over
as

(13:41):
relationships
between
men
didn't
need
women
anymore,
entirely
left
them
out,
it
seemed
very
much
like
the
way,
you
know,
the
marshal
spirit
of
Greece
would
have
taken
these
things.
Fascinating.
Women
just
lower
your
manliness.
And
so
we
don't
need
them.
And
so
what
are
we
going
to
do?
We're
going
to
have
a
giant
non-lethal

(14:02):
fight
with
each
other
where
we
wrestle
around
on
the
ground.
And
this
is
great.
And
and
it
seemed
like
paradise.
They
seemed
really
happy
doing
that.
And,
you
know,
you
can
you
can
you
can
see
the
sort
of
incel
paradise
in
some
ways
of,
you
know,
long
No,
you
don't
need
sex.
You
just
need

(14:22):
men.
And
there's
everything
you
need
is
there?
And
it
was
just
a
very
interesting
take
on
how
genders
are
derived,
the
way
we
think
about
gender.
I
don't
really
have
a
larger
point
to
that.
It
was
just
something
I
was
observing
that
the
movie
was
covering
that
hasn't
been
discussed
much.

(14:43):
And
the
the,
you
know,
the
aspects
of
of
the
difficulties
with
are
you,
you
know,
trying
too
hard
to
be
pretty
Are
you
pretty?
Are
you
not
pretty?
All
of
these
things
that
women
deal
with
on
a
daily
basis
was
covered,
I
think,
very
well.
And,
you
know,
shown
by
the
Barbie
movie.
What
was
happening
to
Ken?
I
don't
think
his
is
as
has
been

(15:03):
as
well
described.
There
are
some
people
who
describe
the
entire
movie
as
too
binary.
But
I
start
to
wonder
about
that
because
by
removing
sex
and
just
dealing
with
gender
stereotypes,
you
start
being
able
to
have
stereotypes
not
be
attached
to
sex.
And
so
you
could

(15:23):
you
can
move
stereotypes
around.
Yeah.
And
as
costumes
that
dolls
can
wear
essentially.
And
so
so
it
actually
undercuts
the
binary
system
in
a
certain
way. 2374 00:15:35,006 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
It's
fascinating.
And
they
moved
through
every
single. 2383 00:15:38,026 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Costume,
every
single 2387 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01 .

Eric: Cop 2389 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01 (15:39):
undefined
showed
every
everyone. 2393 00:15:40,606 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah 2397 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:15:41,476 , yeah 2398 00:00:00,-01 --> 00:00:00,-01 ,
yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
Magic
earring
Can.
It
was
delightful.
Yeah,
I
think
so.
Yeah.
So
I
found
it
interesting
in
both
defining
and
undermining
gender
stereotypes
and
a
discussion
of,
as
I
was
saying,
personal
stereotypes.

(15:59):
What
I've
been
doing,
looking
at
evolutionary
history,
like
deep
evolutionary
history,
is
how
gendered
societies
form.
So
I
know
in
the
great
apes
there
are
different
ways
that

(16:20):
groups
of
great
apes
can
form,
an
they
involve
males
and
females
and
they
usually
have
a
dominant
male
and
then
some
sort
of
groups
of
females.
But
there's
one
group
of
great
apes
that
has
monogamy.
They
do
not
have
a
dominant
male.
They
have
a
male
and
female
who
are
just
together.
These
are

(16:40):
these
are
the
givens.
The
male
is
not
larger
than
the
female.
They're
the
same
size.
And
it
has
to
do
with
the
resource.
So
their
resources
are
distributed
all
throughout
the
forest.
There's
no
way
to
defend
them
because
they're
not
located
in
a
particular
place.
And
there's
a
small
amount
of
fruit
in
each
tree.
So
when
you
get
to
the
tree,
you
just
eat,
you
eat
the
fruit.

(17:00):
If
there's
another
gibbon
in
the
tree,
you
don't
worry
about
it.
And
then
you
move
on
to
the
next
tree
that
that
resource
is
going
to
be
depleted
before
it's
worth
defending.
And
so
they
they
don't
need
large
groups.
T
have
relatively
small
families.
So
it's
basically
a
nuclear
family,
male
and
a
female,
and
then
a
few
juveniles
moving
with
them
in
a
group.
And
that's
it.
Interestingly,

(17:21):
when
I
was
in
in
Java,
when
we
went
to
Penang
and
Darwin
went
to
this
forest
there
where
they
had
the
sea
among
which
are
a
kind
of
gibbon,
and
this
man
had
access
to
the
garbage
dump.
Again,
just
like
the. 2705 00:17:40,216 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Garbage
dump
here,
we
dump

(17:41):
you.
It's
always
a
garbage. 2716 00:17:42,706 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Well,
it
changes
the
amount
of
resources
in
a
society.
And
so
for
them,
they
weren't
they
weren't
coming
up
with
some
sort
of
gibbon
paradise
because
they
were
already
in
a
relatively
non-hierarchical
society.
What
they
had
now
was
a
defendable
resource.
Right.
And
so
instead
of
just
these
two
gibbons
and
a
couple
of
juveniles,
I
saw
troupes
of
2030
gibbons.

(18:02):
It
would
be
really
interesting
to
see
if
they
are
starting
to
make
hierarchies
in
this
defendable
resource.
How
is
it
working?
I
didn't
see
any
conflict. 2807 00:18:10,696 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Between
them
that
defendable
resource
is
still
there.
Is
that
garbage
dump
still
a
garbage
dump? 2824 00:18:15,406 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Knowing
Indonesia?
Yes,
probably. 2829 00:18:17,356 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
It
might
be
worth
going
back
to
take
a. 2839 00:18:18,706 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Look.
It
would
be
a
place
to
do
a
really
interesting
study
because

(18:22):
it's
it's
there's
the
garbage
cans
that
you
throw
your
garbage
in
right
before
or
right
after
you
leave
the
forest.
And
so
it's
just
the
garbage
cans
right
there.
And
then
a
couple
other
it's
not
a
major
garbage
dump.
It's
just
sort
of
like
garbage.
So
it's
if
there's
any
tourists
going
in
and
out,
this
is
it.
It
tends
to
accumulate
there.
And
they
don't
always
make
it
into
the
cans.

(18:43):
So
there's
a
bunch
of
like
bags
and
things
and
there's
strewn
stuff
and
they
have
access. 2944 00:18:47,536 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
To
a
20
to
30.
Gibbons
You
think. 2953 00:18:50,116 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
That's
what
I
saw?
I
saw
a
troop
that
should
not
have
existed
and
I
couldn't
I
couldn't
make
out
the
hierarchies.
But
I'm
sure
if
you
spent
some
time
there,
it
would
be
a
lovely
place
to
go.
The
great
hotels
right
there
definitely
recommend

(19:03):
it
too.
Where
was
Pong
and
Darren? 3007 00:19:05,146 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
It
was
in
Penang
during.
Yeah.
Okay. 3015 00:19:07,756 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
That's
great.
Yeah.
Love
that
town.
Y
love
that
town
and
great
place
to
do
a
study.
Anyway,
there
is.
There
is
this
there's
this
study
waiting
to
go
on
on
a
on
a
given
society
that
has
never
been
seen
before.
So
anyway,
resources
are
essentially
what
determines

(19:23):
the
kind
of
society
that
then
grows
up.
So
I
was
I
was
giving
the
example
of
the
gibbons
with
monogamy
because
they
they
they
don't
defend
a
particular
set
of
resources.
They
just
sort
of
travel
around
the
forest
as
opposed
to
this,
let's
say,
a
a
a

(19:45):
gorilla.
A
gorilla
has
distributed
resources
of
leaves,
but
they're
actually
going
to
guard
the
females.
So
the
females
become
their
resource.
And
so
the
male
guards,
the
females,
and
they
move
around
the
forest,
they're
not
guarding
any
one
particular
set
of
food

(20:05):
because
it's
all
leaves.
But
the
male
is
going
to
be
guarding
all
the
females.
Now,
the
females
want
to
be
with
the
male
because
any
new
male
is
basically
going
to
rape
them
as
soon
as
he
can.
And
so
as
long
as
they
stay
with
that,
that
male,
they're
safe
and
so
the
male
protects
them
is
the
only
one
who
gets
mating
opportunities.
As
soon
as
they
come
into
estrus,

(20:25):
he
gets
to
meet
with
them.
Boom,
it's
over.
Very
easy
for
them.
Not
a
lot
of
violence.
The
females
happy.
Everything
is
done
with.
He
has
a
very
small
penis
and
very
small
testicles.
No
competition,
not
really
about
anything
other
than
just
quickly
mating
and
you're
done.
And
so
the
females
are
highly
incentivized
to
stay
with

(20:45):
the
male.
And
the
male
is
obviously
he
gets
all
the
mating
opportunities.
He's
twice
as
big
as
the
females
because
to
be
that
dominant
silverback
gorilla
is
tremendously
important.
Evolutionarily,
you're
the
only
one
who
gets
the
mating
opportunities.
And
so
he
has
to
be
the
biggest
possible
gorilla
to
to
to
win
and
basically
get
a
heron.
And

(21:05):
so
that
is
one
form
of
of
of
primate
polygamy.
There's
a
very
similar
one
that
orangutans
do,
orangutans
the
male
is
also
twice
the
size
of
the
female.
But
what
the
orangutans
are
doing
is
the
females
are
each
essentially
in
their
own
little
patch
of
forest.
So
they're
living
in,
say,
a
bunch

(21:25):
of
durian
trees
and
they'll
be
a
female
and
she'll
move
around
maybe
ten
trees
in
a
small
area
that
are
producing
a
lot
of
fruit.
And
she's
actually
guarding
her
area.
And
there'll
be
a
bunch
of
different
females
in
these
little
patches
and
they're
each
guarding
their
patch
of
fruit
against
the
other
females
and
then
the
male
is
guarding
all
of
them.
So

(21:45):
like
the
silverback
gorilla,
he
has
maybe
ten
or
20
females
and
a
territory.
But
instead
of
moving
around
through
leaves,
which
are
all
sort
of
the
same
value,
each
one
of
these
females
is
guarding
a
high
value
area
and
he's
guarding
all
of
them.
So
it's
another
form
of
polygamy.
The
male

(22:06):
is
also
twice
the
size
of
a
female,
but
it's
a
slightly
different
arrangement.
And
so
these
are
generally
male
centered
polygamy,
where
the
females
are
coming
in
are
going
to
be
related
to
other
ones
in
this

(22:26):
group.
And
then
the
male
comes
in
from
the
outside.
So
a
group
of
females
that
a
male
is
guarding
tend
to
be
related
to
each
other,
and
then
the
male
is
coming
in
from
the
outside.
So
this
that,
that,
that
sort
of,
you
know,
male
male
centered
polygamy
like
that.
In
chimpanzees
you
have
what
is
called
multi
male

(22:46):
polygamy.
So
chimpanzees
the
the
the
males
are
brothers
and
they're
all
guarding
a
very
large
territory
because
in
this
territory
are
lots
of
fruit
trees
and
other,
you
know,
worthwhile
sources
of
food.
It's
able,
but

(23:06):
it's
pretty
big
and
you
need
help.
So
one
male
can't
guarded
on
his
own.
And
so
he
needs
to
work
with
brothers.
And
the
reason
you
want
to
work
with
your
brothers
is
because
they
have
your
same
genes.
And
so
even
if
you
don't
get
invading
opportunity
by
guarding
this
large,
this
large
area
with
your
brother,
you're
supporting
your
brother's
genes
passing.
So
they
have
multi
male
communities

(23:26):
that
are
much
larger.
So
these
can
be
60,
80
individuals.
So
you'll
have
a
large
number
of
males
guarding
a
large
number
of
females
and
a
large. 3760 00:23:35,356 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
It's
basically
the
mafia. 3765 00:23:37,036 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
It's
something
like
the
mafia. 3771 00:23:38,866 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
The
family
runs
the. 3776 00:23:40,126 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Family
runs
it,
but
it's,
but
it's,
but
it's
the
males
are
all
related
as
opposed
to
say
in
the,
in
the,

(23:46):
the
gorillas
or
the,
or
the
orangutans
where
the
females
are
related
and
a
big
male
comes
in
and
this
the
males
are
there,
females
come
in
from
the
outside
and
so
a
female
comes
in. 3835 00:23:57,256 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Genetically,
don't
you
always
have
to
have
someone
from
there? 3846 00:23:59,806 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Someone
has
to
come
from
the
outside.
But
there's
different
ways
it
can
be
Right. 3862 00:24:01,786 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Right,
right. 3865 00:24:03,076 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
And
so
in
this
case,
the
female
comes
from
another
troop
usually

(24:08):
is
going
to
be
accepted
in
when
she
is
reproductively
ready.
So
she
goes
into
estrus,
she
has
a
giant
pink
sexual
swelling
that
everyone
can
see.
She
is
accepted
in
every
male
has
sex
with
her
in
the
troop,
every
single
male,
every
single
male,
multiple
times.
And
then
she's
accepted
into
the
troop
and
there's
there's
there's
there's,
there's

(24:28):
yeah,
she
has
to
accept
the
females
just
accept
with
males
there's
some,
you
know,
going
back
and
forth.
But
mainly
the
initiation
is
a
gang
bang
to
be
initiated
into
the
group
I
and
this
happens
to
the
junior
females,
the
more
senior
females
form
alliances

(24:48):
with
each
other
and
with
the
males,
and
when
they
start
coming
into
estrus,
they
sneak
into
the
woods
and
we'll
have
a
friend
that
they've
been
helping
up
through
the
hierarchy.
So
they'll,
they'll
back
a
male
to
move
up
through
the
hierarchy,
become
more
powerful.
And
so
that
male
will
be
high
in
the
hierarchy
and
then
they'll
sneak
away
together.

(25:08):
And
so
she
won't
have
to
have
sex
with
every
single
male
in
the
group.
She
will
be
able
to
just
pick
who
she
wants,
and
then
that
person
can
protect
her
because
he's
higher
in
the
hierarchy.
So
this
is
very
much
sort
of
Machiavellian
toing
and
froing
where
you
are.
And
if
you're
at
the
bottom,
you
have
sex
with
everyone
and
the
males
at
the
bottom
also
have
fewer
opportunities.
So
it's
mostly. 4125 00:25:28,986 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:

(25:28):
In
the
fact
that
as
they
get
older,
they
change.
That
means
they
don't
like
that. 4142 00:25:33,076 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
They
don't
like
it.
They
never
liked
it.
Yeah,
exactly.
Yeah.
So
these
are
the
systems
that
we
are
based
on.
We
are
sort
of
amalgams
of
these
things.
When
we
moved
on
to
the
Serengeti
males
were
twice
the
size
of
females.

(25:49):
When
we
became
Homo
erectus
hunters,
males
were
about
20%
bigger
than
the
females,
about
the
same
distance
difference
between
male
chimpanzee
and
a
female
chimpanzee.
So
we
went
from
vegetarians,
essentially,
who
had
to
guard
a
group
of
females
and
the
male
got
all
the
mating.
So
we
went
from
gorillas
to
chimpanzees.
We
started

(26:09):
as
chimpanzees.
We
transition
to
a
more
gorilla
like
lifestyle
and
we
transition
back
to
a
chimp
lifestyle.
So
these
are
all
flexible
ways
of
living
that
we
can
change
in
response
to
our
environment.
We
can
change
evolutionarily,
actually
change
our
size
over
time,
but
also
behaviorally.
And
so
this
is,
again,
what
I'm
talking
about
with
the
sort
of
flexibility

(26:29):
of
of
of
gendered
stereotypes.
But
now
I'm
talking
about
a
more
of
a
societal
level.
And
I
like
to
think
about
it
in
terms
of
the
kinds
of
organizations
we
make
for
ourselves.
So
the
dentist
office
or
the
doctor's
office
classically
is
one
big
silverback
gorilla
doctor
and
a
whole
bunch
of
nurses
and
secretaries

(26:49):
working
under
them.
And
it's
almost
always
that
situation
now,
very
frequently
as
time
goes
on,
that
doctor
retire
often
be
replaced
by
a
female.
But
she
will
now
be
a
female
silverback
gorilla.
The
whole
hierarchy
remains
the
same.
Very
few
males
at
the
lower
end
no
matter
what.
So

(27:10):
that
the
shape
of
the
hierarchy
essentially
remains
the
same.
Whether
you
have
a
male
or
a
female
like
X,
Y,
or
Z,
sex
doesn't
really
matter
because
they're
essentially
filling
that
same
societal
gendered
stereotype.
So
that's
one
form
of,
of,
of
sort
of
way
that
society
can
work.
We
can
have
we
can

(27:30):
have
the
big
silverback
at
the
top
with
a
bunch
of
females
under
them.
And
there
are
many
organizations
that
sort
of
amount
to
that.
My
classroom
is
somewhat
similar
to
that
at
this
point.
I
have
I
have
mostly
female
students.
I'm
the
male
at
the
front.
Now,
obviously
there
are
female
teachers.
I
think
there's
maybe
almost
exactly
the
same
number
as
male
teachers.
I
haven't
done
the
math,
but
we're
not

(27:50):
a
we're
not
a
diverse
department.
But
in
in
in
terms
of
like
a
primate
behavior,
it's
very
much
like
this
one
big
male
at
the
front
and
the
females
all
learning,
even
if
those
females
are
male
and
even
if
that
male
is
a
female.
So,
you
know,
these
these
these
these
are
societal
stereotypes
that
we
work
within
that
have
nothing
to
do
with
our
personal

(28:10):
genders
and
I
think
they
need
to
be
addressed
in
a
similar
way
that
we're
addressing
our
personal
gender.
I
don't
know
how
to
do
that,
but
I
think
that
these
create
artificial
hierarchies.
They
make
us
comfortable,
right?
So
they
make
they
make
us
feel
good
that
we're
protected
by
the
silverback
gorilla.
I
think
this
is
what
a
lot
of
people
are
running
to
Trump
for.
He's

(28:30):
the
silverback
gorilla
and
we
all
want
to
feel
comfortable
and
we
want
him
the
big
daddy,
to
tell
us
what
to
do.
And
he's
literally
a
large
guy
and
he's
going
to
protect
us
from
all
of
these
things,
particularly
weirdness
with
gender
and
all
of
the
things
that
make
us
feel
uncomfortable.
He's
he's
he's
going
to
be
this
really
big
daddy
protecting

(28:51):
us
all.
So
this
is
something
that
we
seek
in
our
lives
for
stability.
What
other
kinds
of
gendered
societal
organizations
do
we
have?
Think
about
all
the
things
that
call
themselves
a
band
of
brothers.
Okay,
This
is
the
chimpanzee
society.
So
armies,
gangs,
football
teams,
all
of
these
things,

(29:11):
they
tend
to
be
really
rapey.
Think
of
frats,
okay?
Frats
literally
means
brothers.
Okay,
so
the
new
female
coming
in
gets
abused
by
the
whole
group.
I
suspect
this
is
why
frats
have
hazing.
The
new
person
coming
in
isn't
literally
a
female.
They're.
They're
the
new
person.
They're
the
pledge
or
whatever.

(29:31):
But
there
is
an
abused
by
the
entire
group
to
make
them
part
of
the
group.
This
is
something
that's
very
deep
in
our
psychology,
is
the
way
we
move
into
these
brother
brother
groups.
Brother
Hoods.
Yeah.
So,
so
for
example,
I
Silicon
Valley
has
tried
to
be

(29:51):
very
un
hierarchical.
They
have
to
have
open
floor
plans.
Everyone's
working
at
the
same,
then
sort
of
in
the
same
open
area.
They
tend
to
be
very
masculine
and
they
tend
to
be
really
abusive
of
women
coming
into
this
situation.
I
suspect
if
a
woman
has
been
there
for
a
while,
then
she
gets
accepted
into
the
group,
she
works
herself
into
the
hierarchy.

(30:11):
She
could
figure
out
a
way
to
no
longer
be
abused
and
have
made
alliances
with
certain
of
the
males
there
so
that
she
can
fit
into
the
entire
group.
I
suspect
that
we
are
playing
out
these
same
gender
societal
stereotypes
over
and
over
and
over
again,
and
we
seek
them
out
because
they
make
us
feel
comfortable,
but
that
these

(30:31):
can
be
addressed
the
same
way
we
do
our
our
personal
stereotypes,
you
know,
not
just
moving
a
female
into
a
male
situation
and
then
just
it's
the
same
situation.
It
just
happens
to
be
a
female.
But
actually
looking
at
these
hierarchical
relationships,
how
are
we
dealing
with
each
others?
Are
there
ways
to
be
closer
to,

(30:51):
say,
the
Gibbons?
Right.
So
Gibbons
really
have
equality
between
males
and
females.
They're
literally
the
same
size.
They
have
the
same
access
to
resources.
They
don't
have
no
one's
raping
anyone.
They
make
an
alliance
and
they're
the
same
size
because
you
can't
physically
dominate
the
other.
And
while
we
still
have
sizes
between
the
sexes

(31:12):
and
this
is
definitely
historically
been
something
males
do,
right?
We
dominate
females
by
raping
them.
We
dominate
societies
by
raping
the
other
society.
It
is
absolutely
sexual
violence
is
part
of
dominance
and
it
is
part
of
something
that
is
done
on
purpose.
And
we
have
been
doing
this
for
a
long
time. 5194 00:31:30,391 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Defini
on
purpose. 5198 00:31:31,411 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Yes,
we
need

(31:32):
to
think
about
this
in
a
more
egalitarian
sort
of
sexual
stereotype
role
in
terms
of
the
way
the
Gibbons
are,
where
we
have
equal
access
to
these
resources
and
we
become
comfortable
as
essentially
monogamous
units.
I
would
really
like
to
see
what
these
Gibbons
are
doing.
And
Pam
and
Darren,
are
they
now
comfortable

(31:53):
with
each
other
in
a
larger
group?
Can
pairs
of
gibbons
as
long
as
they
don't
have
to
fight
for
the
same
resources,
have
this
non-hierarchical
relationship
in
a
larger
organization?
I
don't
know
what
be
really
interesting
to
find
out.
Yeah,
I
think
it's
something
as
humans
that
we
could
work
on.
I
think
we
can
be,
you
know,
dyads
seem
to
work
very
well
with
humans.

(32:13):
Multiple
dyads
start
to
get
complicated,
you
know,
five,
six
people
in
a
group.
Yeah,
I
think
things
things,
things
can
things
can
get
weird,
but
I
think
it
is
possible
to
have
groups
without
a
leader
who
is
either
a
silverback
or
a
bunch
of
male
rapists.
You
know,

(32:33):
those
are
basically
are
two
models
right
now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
the
other
other
model
that
we
have
in
our
lineage
is,
is
monogamy
with
equality
between
the
sexes.
And
it's
right
there.
We
just
don't
know
how
to
make
that
into
a
larger
organization
with
more
resources. 5424 00:32:49,351 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Especially
while
fighting
an
entire
culture
and
civilization
that

(32:54):
is
against
it. 5437 00:32:55,771 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Well,
the
males
are
still
larger
than
females,
and
polygamy
is
one
of
the
most
common
human
mating
systems.
It's
not
the
one
that
most
people
are
doing,
but
it
is
one
that
if
you
just
count
the
number
of
societies
monogamy
versus
polygamy,
there
are
more
polygamous
societies
than
there
are
monogamous
males.
Just
in
terms

(33:14):
of
numbers
of
societies,
not
numbers
of
people
in
them,
because
many,
many
traditional
societies
are
polygamous
and
there's
lots
of
traditional
societies.
However,
there
is
there
from
a
sort
of
economic
standpoint,
there
are
destabilizing
and
automatic
inequalities
built
into
polygamy.

(33:35):
So
in
societies
like
Sudan
and
Northern
Sudan,
I
older
males
tend
to
have
multiple
wives.
Mm
hmm.
This
causes
an
automatic
instability
in
the
entire
society.
One,
it
means
that
younger
males
do

(33:55):
not
have
a
wife,
any
wives,
and
they
then
tend
to
go
and
try
and
steal
them
from
South
Sudan.
And
so
we
have
this
constant
battling
between,
you
know,
the
Janjaweed
and
groups
groups
in
southern
Sudan
where
they're
trying
to
essentially
steal
women

(34:15):
from,
partly
created
simply
by
their
particular
polygamous. 5624 00:34:21,811 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
System,
literally
going
to
steal
a
woman
and
hold
her
captive
to
be
your
wife. 5640 00:34:26,221 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Yes.
Yes.
This
this
was
probably
the
first
resource
that
could
be
easily
stolen.
So
once
you
have
farming,
you
know,

(34:35):
you
can
steal
whole
grain
silos.
But
before
farming,
the
main
source
of
conflict
would
have
been
stealing
women.
And
you
see
that
in
pre
farming
societies
still.
And
it's
a
destabilizing
factor.
As
soon
as
you
have
polygamy,
you
have
young
men
who
either
need
to
be
killed

(34:56):
or
find
a
wife.
So
they
might
as
well
go
fight
for
one.
Yeah.
And
and
so
that
that
that's
what
a
lot
of
human
history
has
been.
And
it's
you
could
imagine
groups
of
young
men
working
together
like
brothers
to
go
bring
wives
in.
Or
you
could
imagine
one
really
strong
one
going
and
getting
a
bunch
of
females
is
usually
within
a
group.

(35:16):
The
strong
one
gets
the
females
from
the
group,
and
it's
usually
a
group
of
young
men
working
together
to
go
to
depose
that,
to
cloak
to
another
group
and
steal
their
women.
Yes.
And
so
those
group
of
that
group
of
young
men
working
together
tends
to
go
with
a
chimp
model.
Mhm.
Tends
to
be
rapey
and
tends
to
be
brothers

(35:36):
and
related. 5842 00:35:37,621 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Right. 5844 00:35:38,041 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
And
the,
the,
the
model
for
within
the
society
tends
to
be
the
king.
Right.
He's
the
silverback
gorilla
and
he's
got
his
hair.
And
so
those
are
sort
of
the
two
ways
we
generally
exist
and
neither
one
of
those
systems
is
egalitarian
or
is
good
for
women,
that's
for
sure.
But,
but
I
don't
think
it's

(35:56):
good
for
men
either.
I
think
an
egalitarian
system
is
is
more
efficient
in
every
way
and
is
less
stressful. 5923 00:36:04,141 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
An
abusive
system
is
not
good
for
the
exact
cause
or
the. 5936 00:36:07,171 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Exactly
exactly
to
be
to
be
one
of
those,
you
know,
young
men
who
has
to
either
get
killed
or
die,
l
go
into
a
battle
and

(36:17):
then
live
with
something
they
acquired
through
rape.
You
know. 5974 00:36:21,781 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
None
of
it
sounds
good.
None
of
it
rape. 5984 00:36:23,671 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Rape
literally
means
to
carry
away.
It's
not
it
it's
actually
not
sexual.
It's
just
that
assumed.
But
the
rape
of
the
savings,
like
literally,
you
see
them
picking
up
the
women
and
running
off
with
them
rapacious.
You
know,

(36:37):
the
idea
of
grabbing
raptor,
the
claws
of
the
raptor,
grabbing
something.
Yeah,
it's
all
the
same
word.
Anyway,
I
just
wanted
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
sort
of
our
deep
history
and
relate
it
to
I
the
personal
sexual
stereotypes
within
Barbie
and
then
talk
about
societal
ones. 6075 00:36:55,531 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
And
you
know,
you
say
that

(36:57):
the
the,
the,
the
possible
seeds
for
change
are
also
in
our
evolutionary
history. 6096 00:37:03,421 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Absolutely
they
are. 6100 00:37:04,401 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
You
you
what
was
the
what
was
the
prior
podcast
where
we
discussed
the
the
the
other
garbage
dump. 6120 00:37:11,581 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Right
right
right
when
we
talked
about
that
was
that
was
just
the
hierarchy
of
the
baboons.
And
we
were
talking
about
it. 6144 00:37:15,961 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Was
a
whole
baboon
civilization. 6150 00:37:17,631 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:

(37:17):
Baboon
civilization
was. 6154 00:37:19,141 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Isolated
right
from
from
the
others
and
lived
completely
differently. 6165 00:37:24,331 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
And
they
and
they,
they
ended
up
with
a
matriarchal
system
where
the
where
the
women
were
deciding
who
got
to
bite,
who
so. 6190 00:37:29,581 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
So,
so
much
of
much
of
what
we
see
as
our
evolutionary,
evolutionarily
defined
behaviors

(37:38):
are
actually
not
just
they're
not
it's
not
immutable.
It's
it's. 6217 00:37:43,441 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Sort
of. 6220 00:37:43,741 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
It's
based
on
environment
combined
with
personality. 6228 00:37:48,271 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Its
resources
and
and
how
the
society
works. 6237 00:37:52,201 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
The
resources
change
the
environment. 6243 00:37:54,221 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Changing
all. 6246 00:37:55,021 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Can
change
behaviors. 6250 00:37:56,461 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Absolutely. 6252 00:37:57,451 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
Even
in
the
animal

(37:58):
world. 6258 00:37:58,891 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Even
in
the
animal
world,
these
are
not
fixed.
None
of
this
stuff
is
fixed.
It
has. 6276 00:38:02,851 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
To
be
possible
to
change
these
things
that
we
see
is
completely. 6289 00:38:06,631 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Out
of
that.
So
I
guess
that's
sort
of
what
I
was
trying
to
get
at
with
with
this
whole
thing
is,
is
how
I
we
we're
now
exploring,
changing
personal
stereotypical
gender
behavior.
We
need
to
do

(38:18):
this
at
a
societal
level
and
understand
how
we're
doing
it. 6339 00:38:22,651 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
But
what
you're
talking
about
is
that
to
be
able
to
to
to
have
a
completely
different
societal
mode
of
behavior,
we
need
to
somehow
change
our
environment
or
change
something
fundamental
in
the
things
that
we're
reacting
to
and
have
to
live
with.
Like,
well,
we. 6387 00:38:35,701 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
Have
changed
our
environment.
You
know,
we
women

(38:38):
started
going
to
work.
They
have
access
to
to
all
the
resources.
We're
not
we're
not
fighting
for
women.
That's
not
you
get
a
woman.
You
don't
need
to
be
bigger
than
the
other
men
anymore.
Being
bigger
than
women
is
not
the
only
way
you
have
sex
with
them.
So
we
really
have
changed
our
environment
and
we
can
change

(38:59):
and
we
and
we
move
more
towards
monogamy.
Right?
So
in
many
ways,
we're
moving
towards
a
more
gibbon
like
society,
but
we
tend
to
do
it
at
the
individual
level
we
form
these
little
dyads,
we
form
nuclear
families.
We
need
to
we
need
to
think
about
this
on
the
larger
societal
levels. 6511 00:39:14,041 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
But
I
love
I
love
the
I
love
the
I
mean,
the
the
message
of
almost
every

(39:19):
episode
that
we've
done
is
that,
you
know,
we
need
to
understand
evolution,
to
understand
why
sometimes
we
do
things
that
are
that
seem
against
our
best
interests,
right?
Because
of
evolution.
But
but
what
you're
saying
here
is
that
evolution
also
will
can
show
us
a
path
to

(39:40):
be
different. 6580 00:39:40,801 --> 00:00:00,-01 Dr. Josh Stout:
These
are
flexible
behaviors.
Absolutely.
And
what
seems
to
be
written
in
stone
is
not
and
never
has
been. 6600 00:39:46,861 --> 00:00:00,-01 Eric:
That's
great.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
That's
a
lovely
message.
Thank
you,
Josh,
Thank
you.
All
right.