April 16, 2024 • 35 mins
In this latest episode of the Dream Log Cabin Podcast, our host Lindsay Sutherland is joined by special guest and co-owner of Idaho Geothermal, Jason Fuller. Together, they discuss the incredible potential of geothermal energy, focusing in particular on geothermal heat pumps and their role as a highly efficient alternative energy solution. While the installation costs might be high, the long-term energy savings and increased self-reliance make these systems a worthwhile investment.
Lindsay and Jason unpack the science behind air source and water source heat pumps, revealing how they successfully harness heat energy from our environment and achieve impressive energy efficiency levels up to 500%. They further elaborate on the benefits of water source heat pumps, including their independence from outdoor temperatures and ability to zone heating and cooling for multilevel properties.
Transitioning to a practical lens, the discussion turns to the realities of installing these cutting-edge systems. The conversation covers everything from construction impact to financial considerations and guidance to navigate incentives offered by the government and utility companies. Geothermal systems come with longer lifespan, less maintenance, and overall cost-effectiveness despite the higher initial cost, making them a sound investment for your dream log cabin.
Looking towards the future, the podcast explores the role of geothermal energy in promoting sustainable living and energy efficiency in our homes. Get a clearer perspective on this incredible renewable energy source and discover why a geothermal heat pump might be the heating and cooling solution you've been seeking.
Connect with Caribou Creek Log Homes Here: https://www.cariboucreek.com
Connect with Idaho Geo Thermal Here: https://www.idahogeothermal.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:05):
Podcast. I'm so excited to have you here with me. I'm your host,
Lindsay Sutherland, and this podcast is brought to you by Caribou Creek Handcrafted Log Homes.
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to my Dream Log Cabin Podcast.
I'm your host, Lindsay Sutherland. So excited to have you here with us.
Today, I have a special guest. I want to introduce you to his name is Jason
Fuller. He's the co-owner of Idaho Geothermal.
(00:28):
He's a mechanical engineer coming to us from about middle of Idaho.
Is it Meridian, if I recall correctly?
Yes, Meridian, Idaho. Excellent. Thanks so much for joining us.
I'm excited to have you with us.
Would you mind sharing a little bit about Idaho Geothermal and the company,
how you guys got started?
Sure. We started in around 2003. I had another job at Micron Technology here
(00:52):
locally in Boise. I quit that in 2004.
So I've been full time in the heating and air since 2004.
And we started specializing in geothermal heat pumps or water source heat pumps in probably 2007.
And that's when we changed our name to Idaho Geothermal and really started focusing
on water source heat pumps. helps.
(01:15):
Excellent. Okay, well, this is a hot topic for sure. No pun intended.
I really didn't mean to do that. But that was kind of funny.
Anyway, so it is a hot topic, though, because I know that people are looking
for alternative sources, and just in general, wanting to learn about this specific type of source.
And it's heating and cooling solution, isn't it? Isn't that right?
(01:37):
Yes, it is. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about what people can expect when
they go into this. What are some of the pros and cons of a geothermal unit?
Well, a geothermal unit really, in my mind, only has one con,
and that is the initial install cost.
And I think most people familiar with it know that it just costs more money to install up front.
(01:59):
And there's tax incentives the government's instilled to try and combat that
problem and encourage more people to go that way.
But really, that is the number one drawback with a geothermal heat pump is if
you compare it to a conventional style system, whether it be an air source heat
pump or gas furnace, the initial install cost is going to be higher.
Go ahead. I was just going to encourage you to continue, but you're continuing
(02:25):
without my encouragement, so that's perfect.
Well, the benefits of, and I'm going to say water source heat,
because when we use the word geothermal, especially here in Boise,
that geothermal essentially means removing heat from the earth.
And when we say geothermal down here, there's lots of confusion around that,
(02:46):
meaning some people think that's radiant floor heat, but most people,
when they hear geothermal, they think of the downtown hotspot geothermal that we have,
the Warm Springs Geothermal District and the Boise City Geothermal District. district.
There's Boise State has a lot of, they have some facilities down there that are heated by this.
And this is what I call a hotspot because they have a geothermal well that's
(03:09):
extremely deep and they're pumping water right out of the ground and delivering
hot water to these houses.
So a water source heat pump is not hotspot geothermal.
It is a heat pump that is like an air source heat, sits outside,
looks just like an air conditioner, and it will pull heat
out of the air and move that into the house to to
heat your house in the winter a water source heat pump uses water and you'll
(03:34):
also hear called ground source heat pump because we put brown loops into the
ground circulate water through them and then the heat pump essentially removes
heat from the earth and uses it to heat your house so the benefits to this system is the efficiency,
these systems are up to 500 percent efficient and that concept is is a little
(03:54):
strange as well Because if you purchase one watt of power from Idaho Power,
these systems can put up to five watts of heat energy into your home.
So that's a 5x factor or 500% efficient.
And the premise is, is you're getting the one watt that you bought from Idaho
Power, and the system is moving an additional four watts of energy from the earth into the house.
(04:18):
That makes sense. So the big pro is the efficiency and the long-term benefits
as far as energy reduction over time.
Yeah, because I was going to ask you, and you mentioned that it pulls heat from
the air. I'm like, well, something has to be. I mean, in winter, the air isn't hot.
So I don't quite get how that works. Like, how does it pull?
(04:40):
How does it make the air hot? So it is using some sort of the power grid,
but then just giving you a 5x return on the purchasing power, I guess you could say.
Exactly. Exactly. So air source
heat pumps in this area, and you're in northern Idaho, correct? Yes.
Yeah. So I'm sure that you have homestead cabins up there that are heated by air source heat pumps.
(05:03):
And in the summertime, that's an air condition. And what they're doing in the
summertime is it's pulling the heat out of the cabin and rejecting that heat to the outside.
Well, it's just that refrigeration system can just reverse in the wintertime,
and it can pull the heat out of the air and put it inside the heat cabin.
But it gets hard to do that when it gets, say, 20 degrees outside,
(05:24):
when it gets 10 degrees outside.
But the refrigeration cycle inside that heat pump is still able to do it.
You can still pull heat out of 10 degree air and put heat inside your cabin.
The efficiencies just drop off and the capacities drop off when it gets cold outside.
Interesting. Does it work like a car's radiator? I mean, I'm just trying to
pick. I know it's kind of a, I'm a layman's over here.
(05:47):
So like, does it work like a car's radiator where it's pulling the cold air
and it's like pushing the air over something that's heating it up?
I mean, how does it, how is there already hot air in cold air?
Well, you would have to get involved with the refrigeration cycle to understand that.
And I always tell people the magic's inside the box type thing.
(06:08):
But if you want to cure some people from insomnia, you can start talking about
the refrigeration cycle and
how these heat pumps are able to transfer heat from one spot to another.
But in, let's call it just 20 degree air, there's still energy in that.
And refrigeration, when it goes through there, it condenses on one side and
it evaporates on the other.
(06:29):
And on one side, it absorbs energy. The other side, it discharges it.
So it still can pull energy from there. That's so fascinating. Fascinating.
It is. It is. And the water source heat pumps utilize water.
And it's about 30 times easier to transfer heat with water as it is with air.
Okay. So you get a bump in efficiency.
Like if you think of a blacksmith with a hot piece of steel,
(06:52):
the way they quench that is dipping it in water, you know, not putting it in front of a fan.
So the water source heat pumps, they're not affected by outdoor temperatures
because the ground loop is underground. ground.
And so when it gets extremely cold, their efficiencies or their capacities don't
drop off like air source heaters do.
Okay. So just to kind of make sure we're explaining this.
(07:13):
So there's air source heat pumps that look just like an AC unit.
They just pull air from the outside.
And then do they duct like a regular HVAC system or how does that get transferred into the cabin?
Yes. Most of the systems that we do are what we call forced air heating and cooling.
You've got duct work and you've got air registers, whether it be on the floor or in the ceiling.
(07:38):
And you're just pumping warm air, you know, you're pulling air from the cabin,
heating it up and putting it back in. So you've got warm air coming out of the registers.
So it is just like a forced air system. Yeah. Okay. That's great.
I just, I kind of figured it was, but I'm like, but I could be wrong. So I better ask.
Cause I know the floor system. I mean, that makes sense. It's using water.
(07:58):
It's got the pipes underneath into the concrete and that's heating.
And it was really interesting.
You and I were talking about this a little bit when we were getting
to know each other to schedule this interview you mentioned also that
the floor system can do heating and cooling as
well which i don't think a lot of people realize yeah that
that's true so they they make water source heat pumps forced air just like we
(08:19):
talked that heat and cool the air and they make the exact same water source
heat pump that that can heat and chill water so almost half the systems that
we do our hydronic systems or radiant floor heat systems.
So we're able to do radiant floor heating with the geothermal heat pump.
And the beauty of that is it is a heat pump, so it's reversible.
(08:42):
So in the summertime, instead of heating that tank of water and heating the
house with it, we can reverse it and we can chill that tank and we can actually chill the floor.
And in a lot of cases, that can handle all of the cooling that the cabin would need.
Interesting, especially considering that, you know, cold air typically falls, but it sounds like,
(09:04):
Sounds like it could be warming the air as the air hits the surface,
maybe. I'm not sure, but that just sounds really fascinating that it can.
What about in like a two-story cabin or a cabin with a loft?
Like, do you typically recommend a split system or some other type of thing?
Or did you find that it's efficient to do the whole setup?
We try to condition as much space as we can with one unit.
(09:24):
And if you're talking about a four-story unit, we can zone them so that you
can have a thermostat upstairs and a thermostat downstairs and maintain two
different temperatures or two different control systems.
And we do a lot of projects in central Idaho with, again, radiant floor heat.
And that's on multiple levels, basement main and upper level with radiant tubing.
(09:46):
So yeah, we zone things with controls to get the right temperature and the right
comfort at different levels.
Okay. So now thinking through like building a new home, is this something that
that say a consumer wants to put a system like this or explore a system like this.
Is this something that they would need to talk to their contractor about?
(10:07):
And what might be some questions that they should ask?
Yeah, it's something they're going to definitely need to talk to their contractor
about just to keep them in the loop and also to manage the upfront costs and
manage the expectations of what that may be.
But they shouldn't be concerned that it's going to extend the construction time
of their home because it really takes no longer to install one of these systems
(10:29):
than any other type of heating system.
And so we typically have a rough-in stage and trim-out stage in new construction.
And so it doesn't affect the construction schedule at all.
The main thing is the initial upfront costs and that you consider factoring
in tax credits and other utility.
(10:50):
Like Idaho Power has an incentive.
And I know there's other co-op power companies that have even greater incentives
to install water source heat pumps. So if you plan up front and take advantage
of all those things, a lot of times it makes a lot of sense.
Interesting. Now, is that something that your company would help them to navigate
getting that? Or is that something they would need to do on their own?
(11:13):
No, we can absolutely help do that. In fact, I think most of our new construction
jobs, they start with the owner.
Because the owner kind of knows what they want. They know what geothermal is and how it's utilized.
And they come to us, ask questions, and then bring the builder with them rather
than having us say work for a builder and do all the builder's homes.
(11:37):
We have all kinds of homeowners coming to us asking about the system and bringing
their own builder. So we help them through all of those processes.
Fantastic. Yeah, I could see that happening for sure. So what are some of the misnomers?
Like, are there just some general myths that people have preconceived notions
about these types of systems or maybe an archaic system that somebody heard
(11:58):
once that just kind of left this preliminary thought?
Maybe it sounds like the technology has increased quite a bit.
It has. It's come a long way. There are some awesome products out there.
The number one thing I would say in answer to that question is if you Google
this and you spend some time on the internet researching things,
(12:18):
you will hear some horror stories. And...
The a wall source heat pump or geothermal heating
system is significantly more technical than
a regular conventional heating system and therefore it's much easier to make
mistakes make errors or have something installed inappropriately and when that
(12:38):
happens you know it's not good at all and you will read horror stories online
about ground loops being too small or ductwork systems system's not being adequate,
system's never working properly, and it causes all kinds of issues in the system.
And so the most important thing I would say to someone who's considering a system
(12:59):
like this is to make sure their heating contractor has done it before and they're
confident with the technology,
they're confident with the process, and essentially they know what they're doing.
Well, that brings up a good point. I mean, how would they know that?
What are are some good questions or a good way to like, you know,
(13:19):
is there looking for reviews?
Is there some key questions that they could ask? Like some, so for example,
with cabins, you know, we've given them tools of like how to,
what kind of questions to ask to vet a contractor, to vet a subcontractor or builder.
Is there some key things that a geothermal expert should know that they can
ask to kind of give them a semblance of their expertise?
(13:41):
Yeah, there's, there's a few questions you could ask. And, you know,
I remember one time talking to a builder, a home builder here in the Valley,
and it was years ago, but one of their comments was that they were the,
I don't remember the number, let's call it the fifth largest builder in the state of Ohio.
And I remember thinking that if I was going to build a house.
How many homes that they build may not be important to me because if someone's building 10,000 homes,
(14:06):
I may think, well, they may not have the amount of time to spend with me personally
if they have all these, you know, they're stretched too thin,
they have all these projects going on.
Well, when you think about a water source heat pump or a geothermal installer,
I think it's exactly the opposite.
Because I do want to pick a contractor who's done this before,
(14:28):
who's done this many times, and I would get references on them.
And I would ask to see some systems they've installed.
And that might be going a little far. Not everyone has time to drive around
and see someone else's heating system. But at least call and talk to some homeowners
who have the geothermal system that they've installed in the past.
Because one of the biggest myths and the way that I think homeowners can get
(14:53):
themselves in trouble is just think that a heater is a heater.
And maybe this one's $30,000 and this one's only $20,000 and I'm going to pick
the least expensive one. But, you know, it's always it's not always apples to apples.
So I would I would look for someone who's done it or someone who can talk intelligently about it.
(15:14):
So I'm going to bet you can ask, you know, some questions like I wrote a paper
about this once and I'm trying to remember it.
But you could ask him, you know, what does heat of extraction mean and how should
a ground be piped and what size pipe is it and what kind of pipe is it?
And what is a typical flow rate through through a system?
And I think some red flags to look for is if a contractor tries to talk you
(15:38):
out of a closed-loop system and want you to put an open-loop system in or tries
to talk you out of geothermal to put something else in, that's kind of a red flag that scares them.
They may not be confident enough to do it.
And, you know, something to avoid because, again, the initial install cost is
higher on these systems.
(15:59):
And if problems happen and when problems happen, it's not a good thing.
I mean, homeowners are spending good money for a system like this.
And you want to avoid someone who isn't confident putting them in.
Yeah, that actually kind of was my next question was about maintenance.
And once the system is in place, is there a certain maintenance the homeowner
(16:20):
has to do to these systems? systems and what are the, it's not really a warranty,
but like what is the life cycle, so to speak?
Is it something that's going to have to be replaced in five to 10 years?
You know, what are those things that they can expect long-term?
Sure. The government agency, the AHRI,
(16:41):
estimates the average lifespan of a geothermal heat pump to be 24 years.
The same organization estimates the average lifespan of a gas furnace and split
AC system to be around 13 years, I think.
So a lot of people will say the water source heat pump is going to last twice as long.
So by the time it's at end of life, you will already have replaced your gas furnace two times.
(17:07):
So since that only has half of the lifespan. span. So the systems definitely do last longer.
And I apologize, I'm forgetting the exact question that you asked me.
That's okay. I know I do that. Sometimes I double up on my questions.
So what I was wondering was about maintenance.
But before you go on to maintenance, actually, I have a question that follows
(17:30):
up with the one you just answered.
So you said that it lasts 24 years, but
does when they have to replace the system
let's talk about the floor system does that
mean also that when they would have to tear up the floor and redo all
the pipes are the pipes pretty much for life and it's just the pump
that needs to be you know redone so
(17:51):
to speak yeah the radiant tubing that's in
the concrete that's that's what we call the distribution system
that should be good for forever it
should be good for a very long time so you only have
to replace the water source heat pump the main box that's
providing the heating and cooling for that board okay the
tubing in the floor will be fine okay that's reassuring i
(18:13):
was like yeah but still the same with the forced air system you don't have to
replace duct work or anything like that we just have to replace the the heat
pump in in the garage or wherever it may be installed okay so you then let's
talk about maintenance so what kind of maintenance is involved in either of these systems.
(18:33):
We like to see the system's price a year. And when we see the system price a
year, we take an amp reading or an amp draw on all motor bearing components.
We look at the overall health of the system.
And you talked about asking contractor questions about trying to determine their
knowledge based on geothermal.
You can take water flow rates and temperature readings, and you can tell exactly
(18:57):
how much energy the heat pump is removing from the water, exactly how much energy
it's adding to the air. and there's specifications for all these,
and we document that twice a year.
And if we start to see that the coax coil isn't extracting as much heat,
if that's going down, that's an indication that maybe we need to flush the inside of the coax coil.
(19:18):
With an ice machine cleaner, maybe it's got some iron buildup or something like that.
So we track that data twice a year. That's our standard service and maintenance
agreement. But in general, a general answer to your question is going to be
that there's less maintenance, to be honest, because there is no outdoor unit.
The water source heat pump is a single packaged unit that sits indoors.
(19:40):
So you do not have a noisy air conditioner sitting outside.
So since you don't have that outdoor piece of equipment that gets clogged up
with dirt and leaves and insects and spider webs and debris and gets rained
and snowed on, you only have maintenance on one piece of equipment that's indoors. Right.
Okay. Now, now I know where I live, the water is very calcium rich.
(20:01):
We have a major problem with, with calcified pipes, you know,
how does that affect, you know, would that be like where somebody might need
to have a soft water system or is there a way to, I don't know, solve that?
Do you guys test for that before you put in, like, those are all questions I
would ask if I was putting one in my home.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so essentially there's two types of sources to feed a water source.
(20:28):
We call one open loop and one closed.
So if we think about an open loop system, essentially you're just pumping well
water through this heat pump, and then we're going to discharge that well water
out into a discharge well or a surface pond or a discharge fit that's underground.
So in that scenario, you would be pumping your well water directly through the heat pump.
(20:50):
It will pull energy from it and use it to heat your house. And if you had a
lot of calcium in your water or a lot of iron or iron bacteria, it is an issue.
And WaterFurnace has a specification for that.
We do water quality testing through analytical laboratories.
I've probably only done 20 or 25 water quality
tests in the 15 years or so that
(21:12):
we've been doing doing this the water quality down here
in the Treasure Valley is pretty good but you do need to consider
it and the what you need to add a water filter
to make sure that you're filtering out any sand and you
know there's five different plumbing components we put on those but the
other type of system is a closed system a piping system in the ground and that
(21:34):
system doesn't use any well it uses the same water forever it just pumps it
in a circle so it pumps it through the ground and collects the heat and then
it comes back into the house and it pulls the heat out and uses that to heat the house.
So water quality is not a concern with the closed loop system.
Interesting. Okay. Okay. And then you mentioned in some cases having to flush the system.
(21:58):
I wasn't sure if that was an open or closed system or both, but is that something
that's like a, you know, once every five years or, you know, what's there?
Like we recommend restaining logs about every, you know, five years,
depending on what type of stain you have, that kind of thing.
What, what are some of those types of things they might look at?
Yeah. As far as flushing the coax coil, I have not done that very much at all either.
(22:19):
Again, because we have pretty good water in the Treasure Valley where we're at.
And the open loop systems are becoming less and less.
I think we're installing more closed loop systems now.
So I haven't flushed too many coils. And honestly, I really wouldn't consider
that to be a concern. term.
So really, you're just talking about a, I guess, kind of a maintenance checkup
(22:43):
every six months to verify that everything's going okay.
That, you know, the filters are being changed every three months,
the blower motor is not getting too dirty, and the system is overall pretty happy.
That's pretty cool. So even though they're a little more pricey in the beginning,
you know, in the end, you're not replacing like an AC unit every 10 years,
(23:03):
you know, you get but two years or double the life, I should say it.
Plus or minus a little bit and that, you know, so that's an advantage.
You're not, and I know like even with the traditional AC heating system,
you do end up having to get the coil serviced and get those flushes and all
the same stuff like you would with the refrigerant, you know?
So that's always, and of course, whatever other issues they could come up with, you know, that can go.
(23:28):
So yeah, I'm from Arizona. So originally from Arizona, so that AC issues are
definitely a a theme there. Of course, it gets super odd.
But yeah. So, I mean, that sounds actually like a really good deal if you look
at the longevity of it overall, plus the savings you're getting on the power.
I mean, altogether, it's probably a win for geothermal, I would say.
(23:51):
Yes. Yeah, it really is. And being from Arizona, you can probably relate.
When we have customers that are, you know, their heat's out,
the number one emotion is concern,
term or we're scared we got to get the heat on this is a problem
it gets 115 in your zone and
when the ac goes out the number one emotion is
anger everyone's mad because being hot just
(24:12):
makes you mad yeah it's but yeah
the system do make a lot of sense they're going
to save you money it's the turtle that wins the race and it
you know it's going to save you every month it's going to save you money
you know i you know the question i get all the time
which should have a really simple direct answer
but it's it's a complicated question because there's a
(24:33):
thousand factors is what's the payoff i'm going to spend more money for this
heat pump when's it ever going to pay back yeah well i can show you scenarios
where it pays it's already paid off the day you walk into your and i can show
you other scenarios that indicates it pays off around three or four years.
So it really all depends. I mean, if you're building a house,
(24:57):
new construction, well, you have to buy something in the heat and cool your home. Yep.
So if you buy a conventional system, you subtract the cost of that.
And then you apply tax credits and state incentives, state tax deductions,
Idaho power incentives. And you take all that.
And then if you're in an area that doesn't have natural gas or another efficient
(25:21):
fuel source, and you're up against propane or something else,
you could potentially be saving $300 a month on your heating bill. Right.
And if you have an end loan on the house, the upgraded cost to geothermal may
only increase your house payment by $20 a month.
But if you're saving $300 a month in propane bills, I would argue the system's
(25:45):
already paid for itself the day you move in.
In fact, the Department of Energy, they have an Excel spreadsheet that you can
actually download from their website.
It's called the Heating Fuel Comparison. comparison. I think it's called the
Heating Fuel Comparison Calculator.
But anyway, it compares all heating fuels that someone could use to heat their house.
(26:07):
I mean, it includes coal, kerosene, corn, wood pellets, wood,
propane, natural gas, and fuel oil.
And the spreadsheet allows you to enter your utility rates if you're paying
maybe 11 cents a kilowatt hour for power or 10.
And then if you're paying $200 per quart of wood, and it'll calculate kind of
(26:28):
a cost per million BTUs of energy.
And ever since I've been doing this, the water source heat pump has always been
the most efficient system as far as cost per million BTUs.
It ranges anywhere from $6 to $8 per million BTUs.
And straight electric systems are in the $20 per million BTUs.
So So, yeah, the efficiency of these things is well known.
(26:52):
That's incredible savings. I just, going back to what we were saying earlier, it's such...
It seems to me like it's just not heard of enough.
And that's probably why it seems like the underdog, so to speak.
But it really just has so much going for it. I can't imagine why anybody wouldn't
want to consider this for their home.
(27:13):
Yes, I agree. Yes. Well, and I think the same is the case with like solar.
I mean, people looking at solar or alternative energy sources,
it's the same thing. You're going to have an expense up front.
I mean, solar panels are not cheap. but if
you look at the longevity and that seems to be
it's interesting to me because of course this is again coming
(27:35):
from arizona solar panels are very common there so yes
you know you spend a lot of money to get solar panels our neighbors did it right
before we moved i think they invested i mean fifteen thousand dollars in solar
panels and they were totally fine waiting like the five or seven years it was
going to take to get all that return back on there it was like just okay Okay.
So I think it's just a mindset thing.
(27:57):
People are thinking about that. It's not as common knowledge with the geothermal
because it's a little bit of a different market.
It's not as common maybe as traditional things.
But if you really think about it, if you're really looking to be energy efficient
and you want to incur savings over the long haul and it works for your environment,
(28:17):
I mean, do these systems work in pretty much anywhere in the country or Or is
there certain areas they have to stick to?
No. These systems work everywhere.
They've cut holes in the ice and buried geothermal loops in the ocean. Wow.
I mean, these systems work everywhere. Okay. And I forget where that installation was.
(28:39):
I have pictures of it on my computer, but all over, all over.
And the crazy thing when you compare this technology to wind or solar, as far as renewables go,
is it's really cool to see a bunch of solar panels or windmill because it's
a visual, you know, that they're creating energy and it's really cool.
(29:00):
But the best heating system you've ever had in your house, you don't see it
and you don't hear it, right?
No one wants to see or hear their heating system. They just want to be comfortable. Yes.
But the geothermal heat pumps, you know, and we can provide that. They work all the time.
They work when the sun isn't shining. shining and solar panels don't.
(29:21):
And they work when the wind isn't blowing.
So every day the sun comes up, it heats the Earth's crust every single day.
And these heat pumps just remove a little bit of that energy that is put into the Earth's crust.
And it gets replenished the next day when the sun comes up. And we can use that
overnight, you know, any time of day. So it is pretty cool.
It is. Well, and I'm going to guess, I don't know, this is totally on a limb.
(29:45):
I don't know how far down you go into the earth.
But I know that after a certain depth, there's a pretty standard core temperature,
like a standard temperature that the earth maintains at a certain depth.
How deep do you, wait a second. I'm getting off track here because I'm picturing
like a well pulling up the water and so on.
(30:06):
That would only apply in the open loop system, I guess then.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah, no, it is a very valid question. And there is all kinds of ground loops.
I call them ground loops, earth loops.
We install the most affordable system that we install here in Treasure Valley
residentially is a horizontal ground. And we're digging a pit that's eight feet
(30:30):
deep is the depth that we target. Okay. Okay.
And you're absolutely right about the deep earth temperature.
So here in the Treasure Valley, the average deep earth temperature at a depth
of, I can't remember, it's less than 20 feet or something, maybe 10 feet deep is 53 degrees.
And up where you are, it's probably, I would guess, 48 degrees.
(30:54):
Idaho Falls is estimated 46 degrees. I mean, this is data that people have collected.
So if we get down to eight feet, we have basically a 53 degree heat sink here
in town that we're shooting for.
But back to the wells that you mentioned, there was a job at Gowan Field Air Force Base.
(31:15):
They built a new enlisted barracks facility.
And when commercial jobs get that magnitude, they do bring in vertical drillers.
And we brought a driller in from Colorado, I believe.
And they drilled 40 boreholes. And instead of installing a horizontal ground
that had been eight feet deep,
there was 40 circuits that went down 350 feet into the well and then back up.
(31:37):
So that's still a closed loop system, but they're drilling down into the ground,
installing a single circuit that goes down and back up and then routing that back closed.
So they do drill. Interesting. Oh my gosh, it's so detailed.
I feel like we could just keep going down the bunny trail.
(31:58):
Yeah, it's a lot of information, I know. Well, it's just so fascinating to me.
I get so intrigued by just human minds and the creativity of people to come
up with things like this that totally reinvent the systems that we had before.
But it's not even fully a full reinvention. I'm sure these were probably based
(32:19):
on premises that our ancestors used when they buried their meat outside or something.
Thing you know what i mean like there is pretty some standard stuff but still
to to engineer this to a place where we can now have this like luxurious comfort
where we don't have to think about our system really too much what a cool thing
i just i'm really intrigued i think it's neat so.
(32:40):
It is it is pretty neat and yeah i i've said for years that i believe idaho
is 10 years behind the rest of the nation back east i mean the units we installed
or that we install are built in way in Indiana.
And anywhere back east, everyone knows about it. They know what it is.
They just want to know how much it costs.
But here in Idaho, it is less popular.
(33:03):
And a lot of people don't understand the technology or don't know about it, really.
Interesting. Speaking of, that actually brought up a good point.
How far of a radius do you guys service personally?
I know you're in southern middle Idaho, but do you have a distance that you've gone to do jobs?
Well, in the past, we've gone a little farther than I guess we should.
(33:24):
We've traveled quite a bit to put these systems in.
I told you over the phone, we did a house in Preston, Idaho,
that's off grid. And that's like five and a half hours from here in Boise. Wow.
But, you know, we've pulled that in a little bit because as we've grown,
it becomes more difficult to travel out like that with only having one office.
So right now we have a lot of jobs in Valley County and McCall specifically.
(33:47):
So I would say we go as far north as McCall, essentially.
And then for people who might be listening to this and other parts,
we'll just stick to the U.S.
Like, is there a geothermal association or something that they might be able
to use as a reference to find an installer in their area?
That you know of? There is. It's called IXPA, and it stands for International
(34:10):
Ground Source Heat Pump Association.
So that's I-G-S-H-P-A. Okay. And there's information on there.
I would recommend them to the brand that we use is Water Furnace,
and I'm passionate about that brand.
But you can go to waterfurnace.com and, you know, make an inquiry there and
(34:33):
get directed to all kinds of contractors that may, you know,
that might be in the area to help.
So I would use waterfurnace.com. I think it's expa.com for International Ground
Source Heat Pump Association.
And then that's how a lot of our customers find us is they just,
they search for geothermal in Idaho. Idaho, our name being Idaho Geothermal,
(34:54):
you know, they end up finding us somehow.
Definitely. Cool. What's your website?
It's IdahoGeothermal.com. Okay. I wondered, but I was like, you never know.
Sometimes it's taken, so you end up with something else.
Yes, exactly. Well, this has been a truly enlightening episode.
I'm really grateful for your time and your willingness to come and share. And thank you so much.
(35:18):
No problem. No problem. Thank you for the invite. and let me know if you have
any other follow-up questions or whatever, I'd be happy to help.
Music.
(00:05):
Podcast. I'm so excited to have you here with me. I'm your host,
Lindsay Sutherland, and this podcast is brought to you by Caribou Creek Handcrafted Log Homes.
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to my Dream Log Cabin Podcast.
I'm your host, Lindsay Sutherland. So excited to have you here with us.
Today, I have a special guest. I want to introduce you to his name is Jason
Fuller. He's the co-owner of Idaho Geothermal.
(00:28):
He's a mechanical engineer coming to us from about middle of Idaho.
Is it Meridian, if I recall correctly?
Yes, Meridian, Idaho. Excellent. Thanks so much for joining us.
I'm excited to have you with us.
Would you mind sharing a little bit about Idaho Geothermal and the company,
how you guys got started?
Sure. We started in around 2003. I had another job at Micron Technology here
(00:52):
locally in Boise. I quit that in 2004.
So I've been full time in the heating and air since 2004.
And we started specializing in geothermal heat pumps or water source heat pumps in probably 2007.
And that's when we changed our name to Idaho Geothermal and really started focusing
on water source heat pumps. helps.
(01:15):
Excellent. Okay, well, this is a hot topic for sure. No pun intended.
I really didn't mean to do that. But that was kind of funny.
Anyway, so it is a hot topic, though, because I know that people are looking
for alternative sources, and just in general, wanting to learn about this specific type of source.
And it's heating and cooling solution, isn't it? Isn't that right?
(01:37):
Yes, it is. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about what people can expect when
they go into this. What are some of the pros and cons of a geothermal unit?
Well, a geothermal unit really, in my mind, only has one con,
and that is the initial install cost.
And I think most people familiar with it know that it just costs more money to install up front.
(01:59):
And there's tax incentives the government's instilled to try and combat that
problem and encourage more people to go that way.
But really, that is the number one drawback with a geothermal heat pump is if
you compare it to a conventional style system, whether it be an air source heat
pump or gas furnace, the initial install cost is going to be higher.
Go ahead. I was just going to encourage you to continue, but you're continuing
(02:25):
without my encouragement, so that's perfect.
Well, the benefits of, and I'm going to say water source heat,
because when we use the word geothermal, especially here in Boise,
that geothermal essentially means removing heat from the earth.
And when we say geothermal down here, there's lots of confusion around that,
(02:46):
meaning some people think that's radiant floor heat, but most people,
when they hear geothermal, they think of the downtown hotspot geothermal that we have,
the Warm Springs Geothermal District and the Boise City Geothermal District. district.
There's Boise State has a lot of, they have some facilities down there that are heated by this.
And this is what I call a hotspot because they have a geothermal well that's
(03:09):
extremely deep and they're pumping water right out of the ground and delivering
hot water to these houses.
So a water source heat pump is not hotspot geothermal.
It is a heat pump that is like an air source heat, sits outside,
looks just like an air conditioner, and it will pull heat
out of the air and move that into the house to to
heat your house in the winter a water source heat pump uses water and you'll
(03:34):
also hear called ground source heat pump because we put brown loops into the
ground circulate water through them and then the heat pump essentially removes
heat from the earth and uses it to heat your house so the benefits to this system is the efficiency,
these systems are up to 500 percent efficient and that concept is is a little
(03:54):
strange as well Because if you purchase one watt of power from Idaho Power,
these systems can put up to five watts of heat energy into your home.
So that's a 5x factor or 500% efficient.
And the premise is, is you're getting the one watt that you bought from Idaho
Power, and the system is moving an additional four watts of energy from the earth into the house.
(04:18):
That makes sense. So the big pro is the efficiency and the long-term benefits
as far as energy reduction over time.
Yeah, because I was going to ask you, and you mentioned that it pulls heat from
the air. I'm like, well, something has to be. I mean, in winter, the air isn't hot.
So I don't quite get how that works. Like, how does it pull?
(04:40):
How does it make the air hot? So it is using some sort of the power grid,
but then just giving you a 5x return on the purchasing power, I guess you could say.
Exactly. Exactly. So air source
heat pumps in this area, and you're in northern Idaho, correct? Yes.
Yeah. So I'm sure that you have homestead cabins up there that are heated by air source heat pumps.
(05:03):
And in the summertime, that's an air condition. And what they're doing in the
summertime is it's pulling the heat out of the cabin and rejecting that heat to the outside.
Well, it's just that refrigeration system can just reverse in the wintertime,
and it can pull the heat out of the air and put it inside the heat cabin.
But it gets hard to do that when it gets, say, 20 degrees outside,
(05:24):
when it gets 10 degrees outside.
But the refrigeration cycle inside that heat pump is still able to do it.
You can still pull heat out of 10 degree air and put heat inside your cabin.
The efficiencies just drop off and the capacities drop off when it gets cold outside.
Interesting. Does it work like a car's radiator? I mean, I'm just trying to
pick. I know it's kind of a, I'm a layman's over here.
(05:47):
So like, does it work like a car's radiator where it's pulling the cold air
and it's like pushing the air over something that's heating it up?
I mean, how does it, how is there already hot air in cold air?
Well, you would have to get involved with the refrigeration cycle to understand that.
And I always tell people the magic's inside the box type thing.
(06:08):
But if you want to cure some people from insomnia, you can start talking about
the refrigeration cycle and
how these heat pumps are able to transfer heat from one spot to another.
But in, let's call it just 20 degree air, there's still energy in that.
And refrigeration, when it goes through there, it condenses on one side and
it evaporates on the other.
(06:29):
And on one side, it absorbs energy. The other side, it discharges it.
So it still can pull energy from there. That's so fascinating. Fascinating.
It is. It is. And the water source heat pumps utilize water.
And it's about 30 times easier to transfer heat with water as it is with air.
Okay. So you get a bump in efficiency.
Like if you think of a blacksmith with a hot piece of steel,
(06:52):
the way they quench that is dipping it in water, you know, not putting it in front of a fan.
So the water source heat pumps, they're not affected by outdoor temperatures
because the ground loop is underground. ground.
And so when it gets extremely cold, their efficiencies or their capacities don't
drop off like air source heaters do.
Okay. So just to kind of make sure we're explaining this.
(07:13):
So there's air source heat pumps that look just like an AC unit.
They just pull air from the outside.
And then do they duct like a regular HVAC system or how does that get transferred into the cabin?
Yes. Most of the systems that we do are what we call forced air heating and cooling.
You've got duct work and you've got air registers, whether it be on the floor or in the ceiling.
(07:38):
And you're just pumping warm air, you know, you're pulling air from the cabin,
heating it up and putting it back in. So you've got warm air coming out of the registers.
So it is just like a forced air system. Yeah. Okay. That's great.
I just, I kind of figured it was, but I'm like, but I could be wrong. So I better ask.
Cause I know the floor system. I mean, that makes sense. It's using water.
(07:58):
It's got the pipes underneath into the concrete and that's heating.
And it was really interesting.
You and I were talking about this a little bit when we were getting
to know each other to schedule this interview you mentioned also that
the floor system can do heating and cooling as
well which i don't think a lot of people realize yeah that
that's true so they they make water source heat pumps forced air just like we
(08:19):
talked that heat and cool the air and they make the exact same water source
heat pump that that can heat and chill water so almost half the systems that
we do our hydronic systems or radiant floor heat systems.
So we're able to do radiant floor heating with the geothermal heat pump.
And the beauty of that is it is a heat pump, so it's reversible.
(08:42):
So in the summertime, instead of heating that tank of water and heating the
house with it, we can reverse it and we can chill that tank and we can actually chill the floor.
And in a lot of cases, that can handle all of the cooling that the cabin would need.
Interesting, especially considering that, you know, cold air typically falls, but it sounds like,
(09:04):
Sounds like it could be warming the air as the air hits the surface,
maybe. I'm not sure, but that just sounds really fascinating that it can.
What about in like a two-story cabin or a cabin with a loft?
Like, do you typically recommend a split system or some other type of thing?
Or did you find that it's efficient to do the whole setup?
We try to condition as much space as we can with one unit.
(09:24):
And if you're talking about a four-story unit, we can zone them so that you
can have a thermostat upstairs and a thermostat downstairs and maintain two
different temperatures or two different control systems.
And we do a lot of projects in central Idaho with, again, radiant floor heat.
And that's on multiple levels, basement main and upper level with radiant tubing.
(09:46):
So yeah, we zone things with controls to get the right temperature and the right
comfort at different levels.
Okay. So now thinking through like building a new home, is this something that
that say a consumer wants to put a system like this or explore a system like this.
Is this something that they would need to talk to their contractor about?
(10:07):
And what might be some questions that they should ask?
Yeah, it's something they're going to definitely need to talk to their contractor
about just to keep them in the loop and also to manage the upfront costs and
manage the expectations of what that may be.
But they shouldn't be concerned that it's going to extend the construction time
of their home because it really takes no longer to install one of these systems
(10:29):
than any other type of heating system.
And so we typically have a rough-in stage and trim-out stage in new construction.
And so it doesn't affect the construction schedule at all.
The main thing is the initial upfront costs and that you consider factoring
in tax credits and other utility.
(10:50):
Like Idaho Power has an incentive.
And I know there's other co-op power companies that have even greater incentives
to install water source heat pumps. So if you plan up front and take advantage
of all those things, a lot of times it makes a lot of sense.
Interesting. Now, is that something that your company would help them to navigate
getting that? Or is that something they would need to do on their own?
(11:13):
No, we can absolutely help do that. In fact, I think most of our new construction
jobs, they start with the owner.
Because the owner kind of knows what they want. They know what geothermal is and how it's utilized.
And they come to us, ask questions, and then bring the builder with them rather
than having us say work for a builder and do all the builder's homes.
(11:37):
We have all kinds of homeowners coming to us asking about the system and bringing
their own builder. So we help them through all of those processes.
Fantastic. Yeah, I could see that happening for sure. So what are some of the misnomers?
Like, are there just some general myths that people have preconceived notions
about these types of systems or maybe an archaic system that somebody heard
(11:58):
once that just kind of left this preliminary thought?
Maybe it sounds like the technology has increased quite a bit.
It has. It's come a long way. There are some awesome products out there.
The number one thing I would say in answer to that question is if you Google
this and you spend some time on the internet researching things,
(12:18):
you will hear some horror stories. And...
The a wall source heat pump or geothermal heating
system is significantly more technical than
a regular conventional heating system and therefore it's much easier to make
mistakes make errors or have something installed inappropriately and when that
(12:38):
happens you know it's not good at all and you will read horror stories online
about ground loops being too small or ductwork systems system's not being adequate,
system's never working properly, and it causes all kinds of issues in the system.
And so the most important thing I would say to someone who's considering a system
(12:59):
like this is to make sure their heating contractor has done it before and they're
confident with the technology,
they're confident with the process, and essentially they know what they're doing.
Well, that brings up a good point. I mean, how would they know that?
What are are some good questions or a good way to like, you know,
(13:19):
is there looking for reviews?
Is there some key questions that they could ask? Like some, so for example,
with cabins, you know, we've given them tools of like how to,
what kind of questions to ask to vet a contractor, to vet a subcontractor or builder.
Is there some key things that a geothermal expert should know that they can
ask to kind of give them a semblance of their expertise?
(13:41):
Yeah, there's, there's a few questions you could ask. And, you know,
I remember one time talking to a builder, a home builder here in the Valley,
and it was years ago, but one of their comments was that they were the,
I don't remember the number, let's call it the fifth largest builder in the state of Ohio.
And I remember thinking that if I was going to build a house.
How many homes that they build may not be important to me because if someone's building 10,000 homes,
(14:06):
I may think, well, they may not have the amount of time to spend with me personally
if they have all these, you know, they're stretched too thin,
they have all these projects going on.
Well, when you think about a water source heat pump or a geothermal installer,
I think it's exactly the opposite.
Because I do want to pick a contractor who's done this before,
(14:28):
who's done this many times, and I would get references on them.
And I would ask to see some systems they've installed.
And that might be going a little far. Not everyone has time to drive around
and see someone else's heating system. But at least call and talk to some homeowners
who have the geothermal system that they've installed in the past.
Because one of the biggest myths and the way that I think homeowners can get
(14:53):
themselves in trouble is just think that a heater is a heater.
And maybe this one's $30,000 and this one's only $20,000 and I'm going to pick
the least expensive one. But, you know, it's always it's not always apples to apples.
So I would I would look for someone who's done it or someone who can talk intelligently about it.
(15:14):
So I'm going to bet you can ask, you know, some questions like I wrote a paper
about this once and I'm trying to remember it.
But you could ask him, you know, what does heat of extraction mean and how should
a ground be piped and what size pipe is it and what kind of pipe is it?
And what is a typical flow rate through through a system?
And I think some red flags to look for is if a contractor tries to talk you
(15:38):
out of a closed-loop system and want you to put an open-loop system in or tries
to talk you out of geothermal to put something else in, that's kind of a red flag that scares them.
They may not be confident enough to do it.
And, you know, something to avoid because, again, the initial install cost is
higher on these systems.
(15:59):
And if problems happen and when problems happen, it's not a good thing.
I mean, homeowners are spending good money for a system like this.
And you want to avoid someone who isn't confident putting them in.
Yeah, that actually kind of was my next question was about maintenance.
And once the system is in place, is there a certain maintenance the homeowner
(16:20):
has to do to these systems? systems and what are the, it's not really a warranty,
but like what is the life cycle, so to speak?
Is it something that's going to have to be replaced in five to 10 years?
You know, what are those things that they can expect long-term?
Sure. The government agency, the AHRI,
(16:41):
estimates the average lifespan of a geothermal heat pump to be 24 years.
The same organization estimates the average lifespan of a gas furnace and split
AC system to be around 13 years, I think.
So a lot of people will say the water source heat pump is going to last twice as long.
So by the time it's at end of life, you will already have replaced your gas furnace two times.
(17:07):
So since that only has half of the lifespan. span. So the systems definitely do last longer.
And I apologize, I'm forgetting the exact question that you asked me.
That's okay. I know I do that. Sometimes I double up on my questions.
So what I was wondering was about maintenance.
But before you go on to maintenance, actually, I have a question that follows
(17:30):
up with the one you just answered.
So you said that it lasts 24 years, but
does when they have to replace the system
let's talk about the floor system does that
mean also that when they would have to tear up the floor and redo all
the pipes are the pipes pretty much for life and it's just the pump
that needs to be you know redone so
(17:51):
to speak yeah the radiant tubing that's in
the concrete that's that's what we call the distribution system
that should be good for forever it
should be good for a very long time so you only have
to replace the water source heat pump the main box that's
providing the heating and cooling for that board okay the
tubing in the floor will be fine okay that's reassuring i
(18:13):
was like yeah but still the same with the forced air system you don't have to
replace duct work or anything like that we just have to replace the the heat
pump in in the garage or wherever it may be installed okay so you then let's
talk about maintenance so what kind of maintenance is involved in either of these systems.
(18:33):
We like to see the system's price a year. And when we see the system price a
year, we take an amp reading or an amp draw on all motor bearing components.
We look at the overall health of the system.
And you talked about asking contractor questions about trying to determine their
knowledge based on geothermal.
You can take water flow rates and temperature readings, and you can tell exactly
(18:57):
how much energy the heat pump is removing from the water, exactly how much energy
it's adding to the air. and there's specifications for all these,
and we document that twice a year.
And if we start to see that the coax coil isn't extracting as much heat,
if that's going down, that's an indication that maybe we need to flush the inside of the coax coil.
(19:18):
With an ice machine cleaner, maybe it's got some iron buildup or something like that.
So we track that data twice a year. That's our standard service and maintenance
agreement. But in general, a general answer to your question is going to be
that there's less maintenance, to be honest, because there is no outdoor unit.
The water source heat pump is a single packaged unit that sits indoors.
(19:40):
So you do not have a noisy air conditioner sitting outside.
So since you don't have that outdoor piece of equipment that gets clogged up
with dirt and leaves and insects and spider webs and debris and gets rained
and snowed on, you only have maintenance on one piece of equipment that's indoors. Right.
Okay. Now, now I know where I live, the water is very calcium rich.
(20:01):
We have a major problem with, with calcified pipes, you know,
how does that affect, you know, would that be like where somebody might need
to have a soft water system or is there a way to, I don't know, solve that?
Do you guys test for that before you put in, like, those are all questions I
would ask if I was putting one in my home.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so essentially there's two types of sources to feed a water source.
(20:28):
We call one open loop and one closed.
So if we think about an open loop system, essentially you're just pumping well
water through this heat pump, and then we're going to discharge that well water
out into a discharge well or a surface pond or a discharge fit that's underground.
So in that scenario, you would be pumping your well water directly through the heat pump.
(20:50):
It will pull energy from it and use it to heat your house. And if you had a
lot of calcium in your water or a lot of iron or iron bacteria, it is an issue.
And WaterFurnace has a specification for that.
We do water quality testing through analytical laboratories.
I've probably only done 20 or 25 water quality
tests in the 15 years or so that
(21:12):
we've been doing doing this the water quality down here
in the Treasure Valley is pretty good but you do need to consider
it and the what you need to add a water filter
to make sure that you're filtering out any sand and you
know there's five different plumbing components we put on those but the
other type of system is a closed system a piping system in the ground and that
(21:34):
system doesn't use any well it uses the same water forever it just pumps it
in a circle so it pumps it through the ground and collects the heat and then
it comes back into the house and it pulls the heat out and uses that to heat the house.
So water quality is not a concern with the closed loop system.
Interesting. Okay. Okay. And then you mentioned in some cases having to flush the system.
(21:58):
I wasn't sure if that was an open or closed system or both, but is that something
that's like a, you know, once every five years or, you know, what's there?
Like we recommend restaining logs about every, you know, five years,
depending on what type of stain you have, that kind of thing.
What, what are some of those types of things they might look at?
Yeah. As far as flushing the coax coil, I have not done that very much at all either.
(22:19):
Again, because we have pretty good water in the Treasure Valley where we're at.
And the open loop systems are becoming less and less.
I think we're installing more closed loop systems now.
So I haven't flushed too many coils. And honestly, I really wouldn't consider
that to be a concern. term.
So really, you're just talking about a, I guess, kind of a maintenance checkup
(22:43):
every six months to verify that everything's going okay.
That, you know, the filters are being changed every three months,
the blower motor is not getting too dirty, and the system is overall pretty happy.
That's pretty cool. So even though they're a little more pricey in the beginning,
you know, in the end, you're not replacing like an AC unit every 10 years,
(23:03):
you know, you get but two years or double the life, I should say it.
Plus or minus a little bit and that, you know, so that's an advantage.
You're not, and I know like even with the traditional AC heating system,
you do end up having to get the coil serviced and get those flushes and all
the same stuff like you would with the refrigerant, you know?
So that's always, and of course, whatever other issues they could come up with, you know, that can go.
(23:28):
So yeah, I'm from Arizona. So originally from Arizona, so that AC issues are
definitely a a theme there. Of course, it gets super odd.
But yeah. So, I mean, that sounds actually like a really good deal if you look
at the longevity of it overall, plus the savings you're getting on the power.
I mean, altogether, it's probably a win for geothermal, I would say.
(23:51):
Yes. Yeah, it really is. And being from Arizona, you can probably relate.
When we have customers that are, you know, their heat's out,
the number one emotion is concern,
term or we're scared we got to get the heat on this is a problem
it gets 115 in your zone and
when the ac goes out the number one emotion is
anger everyone's mad because being hot just
(24:12):
makes you mad yeah it's but yeah
the system do make a lot of sense they're going
to save you money it's the turtle that wins the race and it
you know it's going to save you every month it's going to save you money
you know i you know the question i get all the time
which should have a really simple direct answer
but it's it's a complicated question because there's a
(24:33):
thousand factors is what's the payoff i'm going to spend more money for this
heat pump when's it ever going to pay back yeah well i can show you scenarios
where it pays it's already paid off the day you walk into your and i can show
you other scenarios that indicates it pays off around three or four years.
So it really all depends. I mean, if you're building a house,
(24:57):
new construction, well, you have to buy something in the heat and cool your home. Yep.
So if you buy a conventional system, you subtract the cost of that.
And then you apply tax credits and state incentives, state tax deductions,
Idaho power incentives. And you take all that.
And then if you're in an area that doesn't have natural gas or another efficient
(25:21):
fuel source, and you're up against propane or something else,
you could potentially be saving $300 a month on your heating bill. Right.
And if you have an end loan on the house, the upgraded cost to geothermal may
only increase your house payment by $20 a month.
But if you're saving $300 a month in propane bills, I would argue the system's
(25:45):
already paid for itself the day you move in.
In fact, the Department of Energy, they have an Excel spreadsheet that you can
actually download from their website.
It's called the Heating Fuel Comparison. comparison. I think it's called the
Heating Fuel Comparison Calculator.
But anyway, it compares all heating fuels that someone could use to heat their house.
(26:07):
I mean, it includes coal, kerosene, corn, wood pellets, wood,
propane, natural gas, and fuel oil.
And the spreadsheet allows you to enter your utility rates if you're paying
maybe 11 cents a kilowatt hour for power or 10.
And then if you're paying $200 per quart of wood, and it'll calculate kind of
(26:28):
a cost per million BTUs of energy.
And ever since I've been doing this, the water source heat pump has always been
the most efficient system as far as cost per million BTUs.
It ranges anywhere from $6 to $8 per million BTUs.
And straight electric systems are in the $20 per million BTUs.
So So, yeah, the efficiency of these things is well known.
(26:52):
That's incredible savings. I just, going back to what we were saying earlier, it's such...
It seems to me like it's just not heard of enough.
And that's probably why it seems like the underdog, so to speak.
But it really just has so much going for it. I can't imagine why anybody wouldn't
want to consider this for their home.
(27:13):
Yes, I agree. Yes. Well, and I think the same is the case with like solar.
I mean, people looking at solar or alternative energy sources,
it's the same thing. You're going to have an expense up front.
I mean, solar panels are not cheap. but if
you look at the longevity and that seems to be
it's interesting to me because of course this is again coming
(27:35):
from arizona solar panels are very common there so yes
you know you spend a lot of money to get solar panels our neighbors did it right
before we moved i think they invested i mean fifteen thousand dollars in solar
panels and they were totally fine waiting like the five or seven years it was
going to take to get all that return back on there it was like just okay Okay.
So I think it's just a mindset thing.
(27:57):
People are thinking about that. It's not as common knowledge with the geothermal
because it's a little bit of a different market.
It's not as common maybe as traditional things.
But if you really think about it, if you're really looking to be energy efficient
and you want to incur savings over the long haul and it works for your environment,
(28:17):
I mean, do these systems work in pretty much anywhere in the country or Or is
there certain areas they have to stick to?
No. These systems work everywhere.
They've cut holes in the ice and buried geothermal loops in the ocean. Wow.
I mean, these systems work everywhere. Okay. And I forget where that installation was.
(28:39):
I have pictures of it on my computer, but all over, all over.
And the crazy thing when you compare this technology to wind or solar, as far as renewables go,
is it's really cool to see a bunch of solar panels or windmill because it's
a visual, you know, that they're creating energy and it's really cool.
(29:00):
But the best heating system you've ever had in your house, you don't see it
and you don't hear it, right?
No one wants to see or hear their heating system. They just want to be comfortable. Yes.
But the geothermal heat pumps, you know, and we can provide that. They work all the time.
They work when the sun isn't shining. shining and solar panels don't.
(29:21):
And they work when the wind isn't blowing.
So every day the sun comes up, it heats the Earth's crust every single day.
And these heat pumps just remove a little bit of that energy that is put into the Earth's crust.
And it gets replenished the next day when the sun comes up. And we can use that
overnight, you know, any time of day. So it is pretty cool.
It is. Well, and I'm going to guess, I don't know, this is totally on a limb.
(29:45):
I don't know how far down you go into the earth.
But I know that after a certain depth, there's a pretty standard core temperature,
like a standard temperature that the earth maintains at a certain depth.
How deep do you, wait a second. I'm getting off track here because I'm picturing
like a well pulling up the water and so on.
(30:06):
That would only apply in the open loop system, I guess then.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah, no, it is a very valid question. And there is all kinds of ground loops.
I call them ground loops, earth loops.
We install the most affordable system that we install here in Treasure Valley
residentially is a horizontal ground. And we're digging a pit that's eight feet
(30:30):
deep is the depth that we target. Okay. Okay.
And you're absolutely right about the deep earth temperature.
So here in the Treasure Valley, the average deep earth temperature at a depth
of, I can't remember, it's less than 20 feet or something, maybe 10 feet deep is 53 degrees.
And up where you are, it's probably, I would guess, 48 degrees.
(30:54):
Idaho Falls is estimated 46 degrees. I mean, this is data that people have collected.
So if we get down to eight feet, we have basically a 53 degree heat sink here
in town that we're shooting for.
But back to the wells that you mentioned, there was a job at Gowan Field Air Force Base.
(31:15):
They built a new enlisted barracks facility.
And when commercial jobs get that magnitude, they do bring in vertical drillers.
And we brought a driller in from Colorado, I believe.
And they drilled 40 boreholes. And instead of installing a horizontal ground
that had been eight feet deep,
there was 40 circuits that went down 350 feet into the well and then back up.
(31:37):
So that's still a closed loop system, but they're drilling down into the ground,
installing a single circuit that goes down and back up and then routing that back closed.
So they do drill. Interesting. Oh my gosh, it's so detailed.
I feel like we could just keep going down the bunny trail.
(31:58):
Yeah, it's a lot of information, I know. Well, it's just so fascinating to me.
I get so intrigued by just human minds and the creativity of people to come
up with things like this that totally reinvent the systems that we had before.
But it's not even fully a full reinvention. I'm sure these were probably based
(32:19):
on premises that our ancestors used when they buried their meat outside or something.
Thing you know what i mean like there is pretty some standard stuff but still
to to engineer this to a place where we can now have this like luxurious comfort
where we don't have to think about our system really too much what a cool thing
i just i'm really intrigued i think it's neat so.
(32:40):
It is it is pretty neat and yeah i i've said for years that i believe idaho
is 10 years behind the rest of the nation back east i mean the units we installed
or that we install are built in way in Indiana.
And anywhere back east, everyone knows about it. They know what it is.
They just want to know how much it costs.
But here in Idaho, it is less popular.
(33:03):
And a lot of people don't understand the technology or don't know about it, really.
Interesting. Speaking of, that actually brought up a good point.
How far of a radius do you guys service personally?
I know you're in southern middle Idaho, but do you have a distance that you've gone to do jobs?
Well, in the past, we've gone a little farther than I guess we should.
(33:24):
We've traveled quite a bit to put these systems in.
I told you over the phone, we did a house in Preston, Idaho,
that's off grid. And that's like five and a half hours from here in Boise. Wow.
But, you know, we've pulled that in a little bit because as we've grown,
it becomes more difficult to travel out like that with only having one office.
So right now we have a lot of jobs in Valley County and McCall specifically.
(33:47):
So I would say we go as far north as McCall, essentially.
And then for people who might be listening to this and other parts,
we'll just stick to the U.S.
Like, is there a geothermal association or something that they might be able
to use as a reference to find an installer in their area?
That you know of? There is. It's called IXPA, and it stands for International
(34:10):
Ground Source Heat Pump Association.
So that's I-G-S-H-P-A. Okay. And there's information on there.
I would recommend them to the brand that we use is Water Furnace,
and I'm passionate about that brand.
But you can go to waterfurnace.com and, you know, make an inquiry there and
(34:33):
get directed to all kinds of contractors that may, you know,
that might be in the area to help.
So I would use waterfurnace.com. I think it's expa.com for International Ground
Source Heat Pump Association.
And then that's how a lot of our customers find us is they just,
they search for geothermal in Idaho. Idaho, our name being Idaho Geothermal,
(34:54):
you know, they end up finding us somehow.
Definitely. Cool. What's your website?
It's IdahoGeothermal.com. Okay. I wondered, but I was like, you never know.
Sometimes it's taken, so you end up with something else.
Yes, exactly. Well, this has been a truly enlightening episode.
I'm really grateful for your time and your willingness to come and share. And thank you so much.
(35:18):
No problem. No problem. Thank you for the invite. and let me know if you have
any other follow-up questions or whatever, I'd be happy to help.
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