October 15, 2023 • 32 mins
This week David and Laura are flying solo for a "Faculty Lounge" episode. Our topic: ChatGPT and Us. How do we respond to ChatGPT as academic workers with a radical critique of higher ed? Using recent think pieces by Corey Robin and Steven Salaita as jumping-off points, we reflect on the lack of a collective labor politics in most writing on ChatGPT; the positionality of our working-class students and their alienation from the learning experience; ChatGPT as an extension of the neoliberalization of higher ed; and why we identify with "cheaters."
Please note: we are including two groups of links below: one on ChatGPT and one providing links to educational resources on Gaza and Palestine.
Links on ChatGPT:
Steven Salaita, "Yet Another Think-Piece on ChatGPT"
Corey Robin, "How ChatGPT Changed My Plans For the Fall"
JILL R. EHNENN AND CAROLYN BETENSKY, "ChatGPT and Academic Labor"
Resources for Teaching on Gaza During an Attempted Genocide:
https://teachpalestine.org/- a project of the Middle East Children's Alliance. Many useful links for educators such as:
https://teachpalestine.org/resources/videos/- docs and films useful for the classroom
https://teachpalestine.org/resources/books-for-educators/ - books for educators
https://palestinett.org/ - "The Palestine Teaching Trunk" - teaching materials designed for high school, but could be used in higher ed as well
visualizingpalestine.org/ -interactive posters that use statistics and other data to illustrate aspects of Palestinian life under Israeli rule.
Listeners: Please share your thoughts on ChatGPT with us! You can find us on Instagram @officehourshighered or on Twitter @officehoursed.
Fellow Educators: If you have more resources on teaching Palestine, the history of colonialism in the Middle East, and the history of anti-colonial movements - let us know and we will gladly share them.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:21):
Welcome to office hours,
a podcast about campus organizing.
In the end times,
we are your hosts,
David and Laura.
So this season,
we've decided to do something a little different.
A second episode each month um in our faculty lounge style where David and I just get together and discuss recent news or a topic that's pressing in our workplaces.
(00:43):
Um But before we,
we,
we begin today's episode,
I wanted to read a brief statement in light of uh current events.
We at office hours stand with the Palestinian people.
As we record this,
the Israeli government continues its genocidal attack on Gaza while we mourn all loss of life.
Over the past week,
we know that the root cause of violence in Israel,
(01:06):
Palestine is colonization and we call on the government of Israel to end the occupation as educators.
It is our responsibility to provide the historical context that is so lacking in mainstream media coverage of this topic.
We call on our fellow educators to help our students understand the nature of colonial violence and resistance and the role of the US government in supporting Israel.
(01:31):
We also call on our listeners to demand an end to the siege on Gaza and to the occupation and to demand the US government and its military aid to Israel.
We'll be providing links in our show notes to educational resources.
(02:00):
Today we're gonna be discussing A I and CHAT GP T.
Well,
we both began uh preparations for this by reading essays which we'll link to in the show notes as well.
One of those essays was by Corey Robin,
the other by Steven Salaita.
And these two pieces are really just the jumping off point for our discussion and I'm just going to begin Laura with my hot take.
(02:24):
Um I know it's not,
I know it's probably not that hot of a take,
but my lukewarm,
it's a lukewarm.
It's an easy take for us here at office hours.
We're all,
we're all about academic labor politics among other things.
And I think my basic feeling being in a community college and reading these essays is why aren't we talking about this much more as a labor issue?
(02:48):
Why aren't we talking about this much more as um something that we need to approach with a collective politics and one that as,
as I always like to say,
um a little bit more,
not a little bit more but a lot more militant.
Like why aren't we being a little bit more working together with our peers either if we have a union in our union.
If you don't have a union in your,
(03:09):
you know,
your little chat,
uh,
you know,
your,
your chat group,
whatever it is to try to push back on this and let me just expand on what I mean,
this has fully upended our workplace.
You know,
I've got,
um,
a friend who,
uh,
teaches political science who,
you know,
just in the middle of a quarter flipped to doing,
(03:31):
um,
doing,
you know,
kind of oral exams,
you know,
hadn't,
hadn't intended to do that.
Right.
Hadn't intended to do that because you had like a British boarding school instructor or something.
Right.
And,
yeah,
and like,
so it just kind of goes without speaking of like,
(03:51):
not only did it take time for that individual to change up their whole curriculum,
not only did it take time to set up it at all,
but we have our pre-existing talents and our pre-existing techniques and to go from one technique to another is not simply to turn a light on and off.
It's not simply to just be like,
boom,
I'm now good at doing oral exams.
I mean,
there's a whole part of this.
(04:12):
It's like you gotta,
you gotta write up how you're gonna grade them.
You,
you got,
you gotta change who you are in certain ways.
And I just feel so strongly that there's this whole thing,
right?
In forms of caring labor,
especially in education,
especially in K through 12,
but also in higher ed.
Where is the basic thing is just when there's a whole bunch more to do.
(04:34):
We'll just do it in our own time.
We'll just,
you know,
find the cracks where we can do this and it's just not right.
And our administrators are very good at weaponizing our care for our students and using that to get us to,
um,
do work that is,
(04:56):
you know,
above and beyond what we really are able to do.
Absolutely.
And I,
and I wanna give,
you know,
I the these essays that we read had very specific goals that were not,
that are,
are a little bit different than what I'm saying.
And I get it.
But I feel like the discourse and now here's the big hot take on the discourse.
I feel like the discourse is crowding out of a labor claim.
(05:23):
And um I also want to make it clear that it's an intersectional labor claim.
Like we've got so many differences in who we are like,
where,
where are the adjuncts who are,
you know,
hopping in their car?
No office,
driving to the next um job.
Where are they gonna have the time and space to do this unpaid?
Um Those of us who are on the tenure line or tenured,
(05:45):
maybe we have a little bit more space.
So these things need to be negotiated through saying,
how much time do we need to prep this?
What do we need to know?
And I just keep getting messages from my own um administration this is individual,
this is up to you all,
you all need to be monitoring this.
You all need to be putting your prompts into chat GP T and I get it,
(06:07):
but the response needs to be,
give me the time,
give me the course releases because of course,
then they'll know the admin will know that there's an actual cost to this.
And I think that's the part that I'm,
I'm really angry about,
not that we can't figure it out,
but it's just we're figuring it out on the fly with no compensation,
right?
And how are our unions doing so far at recognizing this as something to be fought over collectively?
(06:35):
Um,
I,
so far my union has not really,
um taken on chat GP T I,
I think it's something that faculty are gonna need to really fight for.
Yeah,
I think the other part of it.
Sorry,
David.
Are you?
Are you?
No,
I was just gonna say what I wanted to hear some of the things that you're thinking about it.
(06:58):
Well,
I totally agree with everything you're saying and,
and I think that is a really important antidote to,
you know,
everything that I've been reading,
which is really in the vein of like,
how should an individual teacher address this in their classroom?
Um And both the Steven Selena and Corey Robin pieces are kind of in that vein,
(07:19):
which is,
I mean,
which is fine because it,
it also is like a practical issue that we have to deal with.
Um And I'm seeing a big difference in my classes this quarter actually.
Uh And I'm wondering what to do,
but I think the other piece of it that I want to talk about is also just from the students perspective,
what,
you know,
because I,
because that's another thing that I feel like I'm not hearing a lot about.
(07:43):
Um,
and I think we've always had this liberal model around cheating.
Um,
that I,
I tend to hear a lot of my colleagues talk about which really focuses on um this idea of academic integrity and catching the cheater,
you know,
and the cheater is sort of an affront to this,
(08:06):
you know,
model of education in which learning is this kind of sacred thing.
And um people are,
a lot of my colleagues are really fixated on um kind of almost viewing the students as their,
um they're trying to catch them out and,
(08:28):
and what can they get away with?
You know,
and there's not a lot of in interest in trying to understand like,
why,
um how we may have gotten to this point where students um feel so alienated and disconnected from their education that just having a robot generate your writing is a reasonable thing to do.
(08:54):
And I think this really gets to,
you know,
one of the other key,
you know,
points of analysis that we focus on in our show,
which is really the neo liberalization of higher education um which is an ongoing process,
you know,
and in a way,
chat GP T is just really accelerating that.
And I say this as someone who is now teaching fully online asynchronous.
(09:17):
So I have no points of contact with my student,
other students,
other than online assessments,
the only ways that I am able to see them and interact with them unless they decide to schedule a,
a Zoom meeting with me are through these,
you know,
te text boxes that are potentially all generated through chat DPT.
(09:40):
So these these articles by faculty who are like,
well,
there's all that,
you know,
I can give in class exams or we can have these seminar discussions still and all this,
I,
I,
you know,
for many of us and I think particularly going to the intersectionality of it,
people who are teaching at community colleges,
people who are teaching at large state schools,
adjuncts who are teaching online mostly are,
(10:02):
are disproportionately having to deal with this.
Um But there's such a disconnected relationship already between the teacher and the student.
Um And I think that we do have to push back on this um bourgeois notion of what our education system is.
(10:22):
You know,
I think that you and I david both kind of probably subscribe to the kind of social factory model of,
of education where,
you know,
while we recognize the liber Liberator potential,
we've talked about that a lot on this podcast,
we also recognize that in a capitalist society,
(10:44):
the core function of our education institutions is to reproduce class society.
And I think that,
you know,
for those of us particularly who are teaching working class students,
they know that what's being reproduced is their dispossession.
They know that the point of their education is to train them to be able to sell their labor power,
(11:05):
you know,
and on some level,
they um are not gonna be very excited by the classes that they have to take no matter how much we might want them to be like,
you know,
incredibly into a literature class or a politics class and,
and,
and,
and sometimes they are and that's wonderful.
I'm not trying to be cynical about that,
(11:26):
you know,
obviously I teach history and I believe that it's useful and meaningful.
But I also don't,
I try to have a political analysis where I don't begrudge my students for not caring because I don't think it's their personal failing or their apathy.
I mean,
it might be different if you teach,
I think if you teach at an elite university where you literally are reproducing the ruling class,
(11:51):
it's,
it's different.
But for people like those of us teaching at community colleges,
I don't think this means that we,
you know,
don't care about chat GP T but we have to relate to our students and their use of it,
you know,
in a different way that's not,
um,
blaming them,
(12:11):
but that's looking at what's gone so wrong about in our education system and really more deeply than that,
you know,
our,
our society that,
um,
education is,
is producing this,
this problem.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
I,
I'm so glad that you brought that up because actually I think there's some,
(12:34):
there's some really good points that you make pri,
primarily around.
Yeah.
Like we're,
we're not really,
we come,
I think you and I sort of share a generational um like we were from a sort of similar era of left politics and we're also from a similar era of like you kind of approach the alienation of capitalists and neo liberal life through diy through small communities through independent,
(12:57):
like these things that lead you to towards like stronger connection and more genuine authenticity this whole era.
And I think that that is something that leads people sometimes into a knee jerk sense of like,
but in this classroom,
just as you said,
in this classroom,
we're really gonna do the,
this wonderful thing that expands minds and so forth.
(13:20):
And that is cool.
It's fine and I want that to happen in my classrooms.
But it's just,
it's not,
it's not,
is that undoing the alienation that people experience?
And I think you're 100% correct that a lot of students see education for what it is.
(13:41):
And to me this gets to a kind of compulsory element to education.
So one and again,
speaking to differences,
my classrooms are essentially 11th and 12th graders who,
while they're quote unquote,
choosing to come to my classroom,
they're actually not,
they are doing their compulsory education,
(14:02):
but at a community college.
And so they bring out all of the things that go against the notion of voluntarily choosing your own path,
choosing where you wanna be.
They're not really choosing to be in my class,
they have to be there.
So any disaffection,
any alienation,
any just overall apathy I used to think of as a product of compulsive compulsion rather than voluntary,
(14:30):
you know,
voluntarily joining my class.
But even if you look at the four years and other schools,
I think neoliberalism has created a kind of society wide compulsion around certain types of education.
So a lot of people are saying,
why do I need to take this course?
I just need to get this B A because the society has told me that I cannot have a fulfilling life.
(14:53):
I can't actually have any kind of freedom unless I get this education.
And so just as you said,
we,
we've created these scenarios where you can't,
you're not having this rich classroom space.
I feel on the,
on the question of like cheating,
I feel like I really don't care if people are cheating except when,
(15:19):
except when it reaches the level where it kind of influences the common feeling about the space as a community,
as a community.
Yeah.
So it's actually about,
I always think about it in terms of,
of creating a commons,
people who see others doing something and then feel well,
(15:40):
this educational space isn't great because no one cares or because no one's showing up on time,
whatever it is being late,
not showing up on time,
being apathetic.
All those things are expected and are not fine.
But when they then influence the total ecology of the classroom,
then it becomes a problem.
So it's not about finding and punishing one student.
(16:00):
It's about creating an educational space.
Yeah.
II,
I agree because I,
I,
you know,
I mean,
and in terms of this question of what should an individual teacher do,
which we probably don't really have an answer to that,
that is something that I've mulled over because,
I mean,
yeah,
going back to this thing of cheating,
(16:21):
like,
I,
I don't really care if someone,
you know,
I've always struggled with this,
with plagiarism because it's always been this thing that people get really riled up about.
And I've always been like a little bit like,
well,
I cheated,
I cheated in my school.
My friends cheated in high school.
I couldn't really cheat in college because of what we have to have this kind of content.
(16:42):
People need to hear this.
Yeah.
I mean,
I don't know,
I kind of identify with cheaters a little bit.
I mean,
I didn't cheat in college.
I went to a liberal arts school where you literally did just write essays and we didn't have,
obviously the internet the way we have it now.
There was really,
I mean,
I don't know,
I guess you could have paid someone to write your essays for you.
But,
but,
(17:02):
um,
but it's the same with,
it's a little bit,
reminds me of how I felt about when I,
when I first started teaching in person and people are on their phone.
At first,
I was like,
well,
you know,
it's their choice.
Like,
if they want to zone out,
I don't really feel like going around like this isn't,
you know,
high school,
I don't really feel like going around and telling everyone to put their phone away.
(17:24):
But then I started to feel like,
um I was creating a classroom climate where students were getting the message that they didn't really need to pay attention.
And it was basically really,
like,
as you said,
altering the ecology of the classroom and just creating a,
a vibe that this wasn't really important and you didn't really need to pay attention.
(17:49):
So I did end up feeling that it was kind of in the collective interest for me to be stricter about things like that.
And so I,
I kind of feel that way about chat GP T in theory,
you know,
that,
um this quarter,
for instance,
it's the first time where I've really noticed like a bunch of papers that just seem way,
(18:12):
way too well written and,
and saying things in this,
you know,
it's like,
it's this uncanny Valley kind of,
you know,
makes sense but feels generic like a,
as Steven Sala says in his article,
like,
you don't feel an authorial voice.
Um,
but it's also impossible to prove or,
(18:33):
you know,
you can't,
you know,
so,
I don't know.
I'm never totally sure,
but I,
I it's the first time that I have really kind of like a critical mass of those.
And,
um,
it does make me feel like what's the point of this?
I'm teaching fully online.
Uh,
you know,
I,
I spend most of my time grading.
Am I just grading things that a robot wrote and like,
(18:56):
why not just give everyone a then just let's just cut out all of this waste of time.
Um And that just,
that feels,
I mean,
as a worker,
it feels really demoralizing,
but it also makes me sad in terms of,
um just what I do feel like students are losing from,
(19:17):
from the educational process.
And I guess that's the part where it's like,
you know,
I do believe in something that is po it's possible for something to happen in the classroom that is,
is,
is positive and is generative for students.
And I do believe that learning how to write,
how to make an argument,
you know,
and,
and how to think through complex ideas is a really valuable skill and,
(19:40):
you know,
I teach history.
I,
I believe in the con the content that I'm teaching and I want young people to um be able to put the world in context and understand it.
So,
you know,
if I can do things to make it harder for them to avoid kind of having to grapple with those things that might be hard and their lives are very busy.
(20:06):
So if there's an easy out,
they're gonna go to it.
But,
you know,
if I can make it harder for them,
I,
I would do that.
I mean,
that's part of the reason why I,
I do a lot of assessments that and,
you know,
ideally I wouldn't like to do any type of,
you know,
great grades.
But with chat G BT,
I truly don't know how,
(20:29):
I mean,
I think if there was a way that I could try to prevent it,
I would do that more.
I,
I truly don't know what it is and I haven't received any guidance on that.
I don't think administrators really know either.
They just keep telling us to start incorporating it into our teaching,
um,
which,
and just teaching students how to use it ethically and non ethically,
(20:53):
which,
I mean,
makes no sense to me because they obviously know when they're cheating.
Like,
I don't,
I mean,
maybe there's some people that don't but I think,
you know,
that's not really the issue anyway.
Yeah.
What are,
what are your thoughts?
I think like this makes me just this thing.
It,
it makes me think of this idea about like whether or not radical pedagogy is this individual thing that we do and are committed to like the things that you mentioned,
(21:20):
right?
Like I'm,
I'm committed to the content.
I'm,
I'm very committed to the fact that I get to choose it.
Right?
So I'm,
I'm happy that I have the the freedom to choose my content because I'd be very concerned in a society like ours that like you couldn't do the things in my classroom.
But then this type of moment really shows the limits of what's been going on all around our classrooms and that our,
(21:44):
our individual techniques around radical radical teaching are insufficient in themselves to deal with the stuff that's happening around,
which makes sense,
right?
It's just,
it's not,
there isn't really a theory of change.
Like how does my teaching something radical plus my technique and how I make it more learner centric.
(22:05):
How does any of that change the circumstances that are all outside of the classroom?
And then,
but it,
but it brings up the question then is how does doing something else collectively change the circumstances of our society?
And that,
and that's where it gets to like building a,
you know,
building strong collective movements that include students and faculty and staff and figuring out what kind of institution we want to have,
(22:35):
but then that feels so big that it feels,
you know,
you're so,
you're so high in the sky at that,
that at that point and those are just challenges that we,
you know,
we all face in different kinds of organizing.
Um,
but I think I just,
the thing I really picked up from what you were saying though is the students.
(22:55):
We,
there's a real lack of the students as well.
I mean,
I,
I would add that in maybe to our big,
you know,
big conclusion here.
There's real lack of the student voice bringing them in.
Yeah,
let's see.
Our students,
why do they go,
why do you use chat G BT?
Like let's have a non judgmental conversation about it.
Let's hear from them.
What are they experiencing?
(23:16):
What,
how did they feel when they use it when others use it?
What's the classroom ecology feel like for them in these,
you know,
in these times with phones with et cetera,
et cetera,
chat GP T as well.
It's just added on to that.
What can we build with them?
And then of course,
we'll probably kind of come to the conclusion,
man,
we've,
we've spent so long not building strong connections with students.
(23:38):
I feel this way personally,
you know,
I'm not,
I'm not doing a good job with that right now.
Um So,
yeah,
I don't know.
I mean,
there was,
um there was a,
there's one other thing that came up where,
where I was thinking,
um,
a lot in the Corey Robin essay,
he's very much talking about like essay building and essay writing as a part of sort of honing your ideas,
(24:02):
you know,
honing your knowledge becoming a stronger thinker.
I think that that makes sense to a point.
But part of why I do a lot of the things that I do is strictly very straightforward.
If you don't come to my classroom,
you will never hear this voice,
you will never hear this idea.
You will never have a chance to hear it and then discuss it.
(24:24):
And so,
like I had an experience teaching in uh intro to globalization fully online where I asked students to read these migrant worker poems from workers like Foxconn and other major,
you know,
manufacturing plants.
And we're learning about global labor and we're learning about the entanglements,
right?
Of long commodity chains.
And I just strictly wanted them to like read these poems and they're not,
(24:47):
it's not a literature class.
I just wanted them to listen,
pick out themes.
What are these,
what are these young people your age saying about life in a Foxconn factory?
And just the assignment was sort of just like it wasn't about becoming stronger writer,
it wasn't about,
it was strictly like,
I want to make sure you did this because I wanted you to listen to these people.
(25:09):
And I received like,
you know,
maybe 67 of them out of 36 ish who um were Chat G BT and Chat GP T invented quotes and passages from the poems that were analyzed.
And it just made me so angry in part because I was like,
actually just,
I,
I just thought of this curriculum as strictly,
(25:31):
can we hear from others?
Can we learn from others?
And then can we consider who we are?
Vis a vis others?
And I just sometimes think a lot of education is that certainly not all of it,
but some of it is that,
and it made me really angry because I wanted them to listen to those poems and they didn't.
(25:53):
So that was hard.
That was hard.
Um When you say that you felt angry,
do you feel in a way like,
um because I feel that sometimes too,
do you feel in a way that this like that you're angry at the students?
There's something that they're um neglecting to do there and maybe this also has something to do with kind of like who your students are and you teach a the community college.
(26:24):
But as you said,
your students tend to be,
they're high school students and they tend to be from pretty privileged backgrounds,
right?
Because you teach in Bellevue,
which if people don't know is like a,
a tech hub.
I'm,
I'm wondering if some of that also has to do with just feeling like they're um using the technology as a way to avoid having to do the work of empathizing with other people or,
(26:52):
you know,
things like something like that.
Yeah,
I think,
I mean,
that,
I think is a part of that is a part of my anger and I hadn't thought about it even in that way,
but I'm,
I,
I more thought about it in the way of just like we're here in this region,
you know,
fabulously wealthy overall in aggregate.
Right.
Not,
uh not everybody but in aggregate and have access to these,
(27:15):
you know,
these iphones,
these ipads and imacs that are being made.
But you're absolutely right.
Yes.
Even at the micro level,
I teach in an area where the dominant,
you know,
many people work live and thrive through tech itself,
not just overall American wealth.
(27:35):
But yeah,
and I mean,
it,
it's just hard a little bit where it's like,
that is a hard moment for me to be like,
no,
no,
no,
take a step back.
Like,
just don't,
right.
Like,
don't,
don't express that anger outwardly because that harms the classroom ecology as well.
But,
but just,
(27:56):
I was also just thinking about it in terms of like,
look,
I'm not even,
I,
I,
I'm not even talking here about chat GP T in terms of building arguments,
talking about like the classroom where we just,
we are together in which we listen or learn something together.
That has to be,
it's like,
but that,
that's also you,
(28:20):
I don't know it seems like you would want the classroom to be structured in a different way where you could actually all sit together and listen to two stories,
you know,
but you probably don't have the time or ability to do it.
There was a fully online class,
obviously you can't.
Yeah.
And I think this hints at just a larger issue which is that fully online classes and all the other tech fixes the tech reforms,
(28:47):
you know,
massive online education,
fully online using canvas zoom,
all this stuff you add chat GP t into the mix.
It doesn't necessarily equate to very much and um it doesn't equate to these sort of relationship building kinds of things,
but here's the thing and this kind of gets to,
(29:09):
I mean,
we could keep talking and we're,
we're gonna be out of time in a minute,
but we could certainly keep talking about this more,
which is that for administrators,
there's really no problem here,
you know,
um I was in a job interview a while ago where the uh uh last year where the,
um the dean who was interviewing me said,
(29:29):
you know,
I'd asked her about online teaching versus face to face teaching.
And she said that she has,
she feels really good about her,
you know,
online teaching because the six,
she sees that the success rates are,
you know,
just as high.
And,
you know,
to me,
I'm like,
well,
yeah,
of course they are because it's really easy to cheat.
I mean,
(29:49):
I teach the same classes face to face and online and the scores on tests are so different that the ones that they have to take in person versus the ones that they take online.
So,
but for administrators,
higher grades is a good thing.
You know,
everyone gets passed along.
They get an A,
um,
(30:10):
and,
and chat GP T is,
you know,
is not a problem And that's something that um Steven Sala talks about in his essay,
which is really this,
this fact that administrators would really probably like to wipe out a lot of our programs anyway,
that don't meet their vision of productivity.
(30:32):
Um And the more that they can kind of automate them um and just ha have,
you know,
move people through the pipeline quickly,
the better,
you know.
Yeah,
for sure.
Yeah,
it's,
it's,
it's creating so forms of like interest alignment or I don't know what the right phrase would be that are dangerous,
(30:55):
right?
Because they want to see movement through,
they want to see completion happening fast,
they want to see success rates and it's facilitating those things which are not good proxies for actual,
right,
actual valuable things like learning or ensuring that you've connected with somebody and have a relationship with them.
(31:16):
Um I think we should,
yeah,
wrap it up.
Yeah.
Um So we,
we can obviously cut this part.
So do you want me to just sort of say this part of that as we wrap.
Wait,
sorry,
I'm having trouble.
Where is that?
(31:42):
Oh,
yeah.
Sure.
Yeah.
Why don't you go ahead and do it as we wrap up.
We want our listeners to know we've got an exciting upcoming episode which will be coming out in early November.
We'll be speaking with some student and faculty organizers who have been pushing back against uh the,
the Santa and others who are trying to destroy education in Florida.
(32:04):
So our next episode uh after this one will be about uh campus organizing and cross coalition building in Florida against the right wing attack on,
on education.
So I'm excited to,
to have that come up and uh anything else to add?
No,
that sounds great.
(32:24):
David.
We um we would love to hear from our listeners,
I guess is the last thing I would say since probably some of you are educators.
If you have any thoughts on chat GP t either just personal experiences or your takes.
Um So feel free to hit us up on Twitter or Instagram,
we'll have our,
(32:44):
our handles in the show notes.
Our theme music is by Nigel Weiss.
Our artwork is by Arthur Kay.
You can find more of their artwork at RO radio dot tumblr dot com.
We would love it if you subscribe to our podcast and tell your friends about us,
rate and review us on all the major platforms.
(33:07):
Thanks for listening.
Bye.
Welcome to office hours,
a podcast about campus organizing.
In the end times,
we are your hosts,
David and Laura.
So this season,
we've decided to do something a little different.
A second episode each month um in our faculty lounge style where David and I just get together and discuss recent news or a topic that's pressing in our workplaces.
(00:43):
Um But before we,
we,
we begin today's episode,
I wanted to read a brief statement in light of uh current events.
We at office hours stand with the Palestinian people.
As we record this,
the Israeli government continues its genocidal attack on Gaza while we mourn all loss of life.
Over the past week,
we know that the root cause of violence in Israel,
(01:06):
Palestine is colonization and we call on the government of Israel to end the occupation as educators.
It is our responsibility to provide the historical context that is so lacking in mainstream media coverage of this topic.
We call on our fellow educators to help our students understand the nature of colonial violence and resistance and the role of the US government in supporting Israel.
(01:31):
We also call on our listeners to demand an end to the siege on Gaza and to the occupation and to demand the US government and its military aid to Israel.
We'll be providing links in our show notes to educational resources.
(02:00):
Today we're gonna be discussing A I and CHAT GP T.
Well,
we both began uh preparations for this by reading essays which we'll link to in the show notes as well.
One of those essays was by Corey Robin,
the other by Steven Salaita.
And these two pieces are really just the jumping off point for our discussion and I'm just going to begin Laura with my hot take.
(02:24):
Um I know it's not,
I know it's probably not that hot of a take,
but my lukewarm,
it's a lukewarm.
It's an easy take for us here at office hours.
We're all,
we're all about academic labor politics among other things.
And I think my basic feeling being in a community college and reading these essays is why aren't we talking about this much more as a labor issue?
(02:48):
Why aren't we talking about this much more as um something that we need to approach with a collective politics and one that as,
as I always like to say,
um a little bit more,
not a little bit more but a lot more militant.
Like why aren't we being a little bit more working together with our peers either if we have a union in our union.
If you don't have a union in your,
(03:09):
you know,
your little chat,
uh,
you know,
your,
your chat group,
whatever it is to try to push back on this and let me just expand on what I mean,
this has fully upended our workplace.
You know,
I've got,
um,
a friend who,
uh,
teaches political science who,
you know,
just in the middle of a quarter flipped to doing,
(03:31):
um,
doing,
you know,
kind of oral exams,
you know,
hadn't,
hadn't intended to do that.
Right.
Hadn't intended to do that because you had like a British boarding school instructor or something.
Right.
And,
yeah,
and like,
so it just kind of goes without speaking of like,
(03:51):
not only did it take time for that individual to change up their whole curriculum,
not only did it take time to set up it at all,
but we have our pre-existing talents and our pre-existing techniques and to go from one technique to another is not simply to turn a light on and off.
It's not simply to just be like,
boom,
I'm now good at doing oral exams.
I mean,
there's a whole part of this.
(04:12):
It's like you gotta,
you gotta write up how you're gonna grade them.
You,
you got,
you gotta change who you are in certain ways.
And I just feel so strongly that there's this whole thing,
right?
In forms of caring labor,
especially in education,
especially in K through 12,
but also in higher ed.
Where is the basic thing is just when there's a whole bunch more to do.
(04:34):
We'll just do it in our own time.
We'll just,
you know,
find the cracks where we can do this and it's just not right.
And our administrators are very good at weaponizing our care for our students and using that to get us to,
um,
do work that is,
(04:56):
you know,
above and beyond what we really are able to do.
Absolutely.
And I,
and I wanna give,
you know,
I the these essays that we read had very specific goals that were not,
that are,
are a little bit different than what I'm saying.
And I get it.
But I feel like the discourse and now here's the big hot take on the discourse.
I feel like the discourse is crowding out of a labor claim.
(05:23):
And um I also want to make it clear that it's an intersectional labor claim.
Like we've got so many differences in who we are like,
where,
where are the adjuncts who are,
you know,
hopping in their car?
No office,
driving to the next um job.
Where are they gonna have the time and space to do this unpaid?
Um Those of us who are on the tenure line or tenured,
(05:45):
maybe we have a little bit more space.
So these things need to be negotiated through saying,
how much time do we need to prep this?
What do we need to know?
And I just keep getting messages from my own um administration this is individual,
this is up to you all,
you all need to be monitoring this.
You all need to be putting your prompts into chat GP T and I get it,
(06:07):
but the response needs to be,
give me the time,
give me the course releases because of course,
then they'll know the admin will know that there's an actual cost to this.
And I think that's the part that I'm,
I'm really angry about,
not that we can't figure it out,
but it's just we're figuring it out on the fly with no compensation,
right?
And how are our unions doing so far at recognizing this as something to be fought over collectively?
(06:35):
Um,
I,
so far my union has not really,
um taken on chat GP T I,
I think it's something that faculty are gonna need to really fight for.
Yeah,
I think the other part of it.
Sorry,
David.
Are you?
Are you?
No,
I was just gonna say what I wanted to hear some of the things that you're thinking about it.
(06:58):
Well,
I totally agree with everything you're saying and,
and I think that is a really important antidote to,
you know,
everything that I've been reading,
which is really in the vein of like,
how should an individual teacher address this in their classroom?
Um And both the Steven Selena and Corey Robin pieces are kind of in that vein,
(07:19):
which is,
I mean,
which is fine because it,
it also is like a practical issue that we have to deal with.
Um And I'm seeing a big difference in my classes this quarter actually.
Uh And I'm wondering what to do,
but I think the other piece of it that I want to talk about is also just from the students perspective,
what,
you know,
because I,
because that's another thing that I feel like I'm not hearing a lot about.
(07:43):
Um,
and I think we've always had this liberal model around cheating.
Um,
that I,
I tend to hear a lot of my colleagues talk about which really focuses on um this idea of academic integrity and catching the cheater,
you know,
and the cheater is sort of an affront to this,
(08:06):
you know,
model of education in which learning is this kind of sacred thing.
And um people are,
a lot of my colleagues are really fixated on um kind of almost viewing the students as their,
um they're trying to catch them out and,
(08:28):
and what can they get away with?
You know,
and there's not a lot of in interest in trying to understand like,
why,
um how we may have gotten to this point where students um feel so alienated and disconnected from their education that just having a robot generate your writing is a reasonable thing to do.
(08:54):
And I think this really gets to,
you know,
one of the other key,
you know,
points of analysis that we focus on in our show,
which is really the neo liberalization of higher education um which is an ongoing process,
you know,
and in a way,
chat GP T is just really accelerating that.
And I say this as someone who is now teaching fully online asynchronous.
(09:17):
So I have no points of contact with my student,
other students,
other than online assessments,
the only ways that I am able to see them and interact with them unless they decide to schedule a,
a Zoom meeting with me are through these,
you know,
te text boxes that are potentially all generated through chat DPT.
(09:40):
So these these articles by faculty who are like,
well,
there's all that,
you know,
I can give in class exams or we can have these seminar discussions still and all this,
I,
I,
you know,
for many of us and I think particularly going to the intersectionality of it,
people who are teaching at community colleges,
people who are teaching at large state schools,
adjuncts who are teaching online mostly are,
(10:02):
are disproportionately having to deal with this.
Um But there's such a disconnected relationship already between the teacher and the student.
Um And I think that we do have to push back on this um bourgeois notion of what our education system is.
(10:22):
You know,
I think that you and I david both kind of probably subscribe to the kind of social factory model of,
of education where,
you know,
while we recognize the liber Liberator potential,
we've talked about that a lot on this podcast,
we also recognize that in a capitalist society,
(10:44):
the core function of our education institutions is to reproduce class society.
And I think that,
you know,
for those of us particularly who are teaching working class students,
they know that what's being reproduced is their dispossession.
They know that the point of their education is to train them to be able to sell their labor power,
(11:05):
you know,
and on some level,
they um are not gonna be very excited by the classes that they have to take no matter how much we might want them to be like,
you know,
incredibly into a literature class or a politics class and,
and,
and,
and sometimes they are and that's wonderful.
I'm not trying to be cynical about that,
(11:26):
you know,
obviously I teach history and I believe that it's useful and meaningful.
But I also don't,
I try to have a political analysis where I don't begrudge my students for not caring because I don't think it's their personal failing or their apathy.
I mean,
it might be different if you teach,
I think if you teach at an elite university where you literally are reproducing the ruling class,
(11:51):
it's,
it's different.
But for people like those of us teaching at community colleges,
I don't think this means that we,
you know,
don't care about chat GP T but we have to relate to our students and their use of it,
you know,
in a different way that's not,
um,
blaming them,
(12:11):
but that's looking at what's gone so wrong about in our education system and really more deeply than that,
you know,
our,
our society that,
um,
education is,
is producing this,
this problem.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
I,
I'm so glad that you brought that up because actually I think there's some,
(12:34):
there's some really good points that you make pri,
primarily around.
Yeah.
Like we're,
we're not really,
we come,
I think you and I sort of share a generational um like we were from a sort of similar era of left politics and we're also from a similar era of like you kind of approach the alienation of capitalists and neo liberal life through diy through small communities through independent,
(12:57):
like these things that lead you to towards like stronger connection and more genuine authenticity this whole era.
And I think that that is something that leads people sometimes into a knee jerk sense of like,
but in this classroom,
just as you said,
in this classroom,
we're really gonna do the,
this wonderful thing that expands minds and so forth.
(13:20):
And that is cool.
It's fine and I want that to happen in my classrooms.
But it's just,
it's not,
it's not,
is that undoing the alienation that people experience?
And I think you're 100% correct that a lot of students see education for what it is.
(13:41):
And to me this gets to a kind of compulsory element to education.
So one and again,
speaking to differences,
my classrooms are essentially 11th and 12th graders who,
while they're quote unquote,
choosing to come to my classroom,
they're actually not,
they are doing their compulsory education,
(14:02):
but at a community college.
And so they bring out all of the things that go against the notion of voluntarily choosing your own path,
choosing where you wanna be.
They're not really choosing to be in my class,
they have to be there.
So any disaffection,
any alienation,
any just overall apathy I used to think of as a product of compulsive compulsion rather than voluntary,
(14:30):
you know,
voluntarily joining my class.
But even if you look at the four years and other schools,
I think neoliberalism has created a kind of society wide compulsion around certain types of education.
So a lot of people are saying,
why do I need to take this course?
I just need to get this B A because the society has told me that I cannot have a fulfilling life.
(14:53):
I can't actually have any kind of freedom unless I get this education.
And so just as you said,
we,
we've created these scenarios where you can't,
you're not having this rich classroom space.
I feel on the,
on the question of like cheating,
I feel like I really don't care if people are cheating except when,
(15:19):
except when it reaches the level where it kind of influences the common feeling about the space as a community,
as a community.
Yeah.
So it's actually about,
I always think about it in terms of,
of creating a commons,
people who see others doing something and then feel well,
(15:40):
this educational space isn't great because no one cares or because no one's showing up on time,
whatever it is being late,
not showing up on time,
being apathetic.
All those things are expected and are not fine.
But when they then influence the total ecology of the classroom,
then it becomes a problem.
So it's not about finding and punishing one student.
(16:00):
It's about creating an educational space.
Yeah.
II,
I agree because I,
I,
you know,
I mean,
and in terms of this question of what should an individual teacher do,
which we probably don't really have an answer to that,
that is something that I've mulled over because,
I mean,
yeah,
going back to this thing of cheating,
(16:21):
like,
I,
I don't really care if someone,
you know,
I've always struggled with this,
with plagiarism because it's always been this thing that people get really riled up about.
And I've always been like a little bit like,
well,
I cheated,
I cheated in my school.
My friends cheated in high school.
I couldn't really cheat in college because of what we have to have this kind of content.
(16:42):
People need to hear this.
Yeah.
I mean,
I don't know,
I kind of identify with cheaters a little bit.
I mean,
I didn't cheat in college.
I went to a liberal arts school where you literally did just write essays and we didn't have,
obviously the internet the way we have it now.
There was really,
I mean,
I don't know,
I guess you could have paid someone to write your essays for you.
But,
but,
(17:02):
um,
but it's the same with,
it's a little bit,
reminds me of how I felt about when I,
when I first started teaching in person and people are on their phone.
At first,
I was like,
well,
you know,
it's their choice.
Like,
if they want to zone out,
I don't really feel like going around like this isn't,
you know,
high school,
I don't really feel like going around and telling everyone to put their phone away.
(17:24):
But then I started to feel like,
um I was creating a classroom climate where students were getting the message that they didn't really need to pay attention.
And it was basically really,
like,
as you said,
altering the ecology of the classroom and just creating a,
a vibe that this wasn't really important and you didn't really need to pay attention.
(17:49):
So I did end up feeling that it was kind of in the collective interest for me to be stricter about things like that.
And so I,
I kind of feel that way about chat GP T in theory,
you know,
that,
um this quarter,
for instance,
it's the first time where I've really noticed like a bunch of papers that just seem way,
(18:12):
way too well written and,
and saying things in this,
you know,
it's like,
it's this uncanny Valley kind of,
you know,
makes sense but feels generic like a,
as Steven Sala says in his article,
like,
you don't feel an authorial voice.
Um,
but it's also impossible to prove or,
(18:33):
you know,
you can't,
you know,
so,
I don't know.
I'm never totally sure,
but I,
I it's the first time that I have really kind of like a critical mass of those.
And,
um,
it does make me feel like what's the point of this?
I'm teaching fully online.
Uh,
you know,
I,
I spend most of my time grading.
Am I just grading things that a robot wrote and like,
(18:56):
why not just give everyone a then just let's just cut out all of this waste of time.
Um And that just,
that feels,
I mean,
as a worker,
it feels really demoralizing,
but it also makes me sad in terms of,
um just what I do feel like students are losing from,
(19:17):
from the educational process.
And I guess that's the part where it's like,
you know,
I do believe in something that is po it's possible for something to happen in the classroom that is,
is,
is positive and is generative for students.
And I do believe that learning how to write,
how to make an argument,
you know,
and,
and how to think through complex ideas is a really valuable skill and,
(19:40):
you know,
I teach history.
I,
I believe in the con the content that I'm teaching and I want young people to um be able to put the world in context and understand it.
So,
you know,
if I can do things to make it harder for them to avoid kind of having to grapple with those things that might be hard and their lives are very busy.
(20:06):
So if there's an easy out,
they're gonna go to it.
But,
you know,
if I can make it harder for them,
I,
I would do that.
I mean,
that's part of the reason why I,
I do a lot of assessments that and,
you know,
ideally I wouldn't like to do any type of,
you know,
great grades.
But with chat G BT,
I truly don't know how,
(20:29):
I mean,
I think if there was a way that I could try to prevent it,
I would do that more.
I,
I truly don't know what it is and I haven't received any guidance on that.
I don't think administrators really know either.
They just keep telling us to start incorporating it into our teaching,
um,
which,
and just teaching students how to use it ethically and non ethically,
(20:53):
which,
I mean,
makes no sense to me because they obviously know when they're cheating.
Like,
I don't,
I mean,
maybe there's some people that don't but I think,
you know,
that's not really the issue anyway.
Yeah.
What are,
what are your thoughts?
I think like this makes me just this thing.
It,
it makes me think of this idea about like whether or not radical pedagogy is this individual thing that we do and are committed to like the things that you mentioned,
(21:20):
right?
Like I'm,
I'm committed to the content.
I'm,
I'm very committed to the fact that I get to choose it.
Right?
So I'm,
I'm happy that I have the the freedom to choose my content because I'd be very concerned in a society like ours that like you couldn't do the things in my classroom.
But then this type of moment really shows the limits of what's been going on all around our classrooms and that our,
(21:44):
our individual techniques around radical radical teaching are insufficient in themselves to deal with the stuff that's happening around,
which makes sense,
right?
It's just,
it's not,
there isn't really a theory of change.
Like how does my teaching something radical plus my technique and how I make it more learner centric.
(22:05):
How does any of that change the circumstances that are all outside of the classroom?
And then,
but it,
but it brings up the question then is how does doing something else collectively change the circumstances of our society?
And that,
and that's where it gets to like building a,
you know,
building strong collective movements that include students and faculty and staff and figuring out what kind of institution we want to have,
(22:35):
but then that feels so big that it feels,
you know,
you're so,
you're so high in the sky at that,
that at that point and those are just challenges that we,
you know,
we all face in different kinds of organizing.
Um,
but I think I just,
the thing I really picked up from what you were saying though is the students.
(22:55):
We,
there's a real lack of the students as well.
I mean,
I,
I would add that in maybe to our big,
you know,
big conclusion here.
There's real lack of the student voice bringing them in.
Yeah,
let's see.
Our students,
why do they go,
why do you use chat G BT?
Like let's have a non judgmental conversation about it.
Let's hear from them.
What are they experiencing?
(23:16):
What,
how did they feel when they use it when others use it?
What's the classroom ecology feel like for them in these,
you know,
in these times with phones with et cetera,
et cetera,
chat GP T as well.
It's just added on to that.
What can we build with them?
And then of course,
we'll probably kind of come to the conclusion,
man,
we've,
we've spent so long not building strong connections with students.
(23:38):
I feel this way personally,
you know,
I'm not,
I'm not doing a good job with that right now.
Um So,
yeah,
I don't know.
I mean,
there was,
um there was a,
there's one other thing that came up where,
where I was thinking,
um,
a lot in the Corey Robin essay,
he's very much talking about like essay building and essay writing as a part of sort of honing your ideas,
(24:02):
you know,
honing your knowledge becoming a stronger thinker.
I think that that makes sense to a point.
But part of why I do a lot of the things that I do is strictly very straightforward.
If you don't come to my classroom,
you will never hear this voice,
you will never hear this idea.
You will never have a chance to hear it and then discuss it.
(24:24):
And so,
like I had an experience teaching in uh intro to globalization fully online where I asked students to read these migrant worker poems from workers like Foxconn and other major,
you know,
manufacturing plants.
And we're learning about global labor and we're learning about the entanglements,
right?
Of long commodity chains.
And I just strictly wanted them to like read these poems and they're not,
(24:47):
it's not a literature class.
I just wanted them to listen,
pick out themes.
What are these,
what are these young people your age saying about life in a Foxconn factory?
And just the assignment was sort of just like it wasn't about becoming stronger writer,
it wasn't about,
it was strictly like,
I want to make sure you did this because I wanted you to listen to these people.
(25:09):
And I received like,
you know,
maybe 67 of them out of 36 ish who um were Chat G BT and Chat GP T invented quotes and passages from the poems that were analyzed.
And it just made me so angry in part because I was like,
actually just,
I,
I just thought of this curriculum as strictly,
(25:31):
can we hear from others?
Can we learn from others?
And then can we consider who we are?
Vis a vis others?
And I just sometimes think a lot of education is that certainly not all of it,
but some of it is that,
and it made me really angry because I wanted them to listen to those poems and they didn't.
(25:53):
So that was hard.
That was hard.
Um When you say that you felt angry,
do you feel in a way like,
um because I feel that sometimes too,
do you feel in a way that this like that you're angry at the students?
There's something that they're um neglecting to do there and maybe this also has something to do with kind of like who your students are and you teach a the community college.
(26:24):
But as you said,
your students tend to be,
they're high school students and they tend to be from pretty privileged backgrounds,
right?
Because you teach in Bellevue,
which if people don't know is like a,
a tech hub.
I'm,
I'm wondering if some of that also has to do with just feeling like they're um using the technology as a way to avoid having to do the work of empathizing with other people or,
(26:52):
you know,
things like something like that.
Yeah,
I think,
I mean,
that,
I think is a part of that is a part of my anger and I hadn't thought about it even in that way,
but I'm,
I,
I more thought about it in the way of just like we're here in this region,
you know,
fabulously wealthy overall in aggregate.
Right.
Not,
uh not everybody but in aggregate and have access to these,
(27:15):
you know,
these iphones,
these ipads and imacs that are being made.
But you're absolutely right.
Yes.
Even at the micro level,
I teach in an area where the dominant,
you know,
many people work live and thrive through tech itself,
not just overall American wealth.
(27:35):
But yeah,
and I mean,
it,
it's just hard a little bit where it's like,
that is a hard moment for me to be like,
no,
no,
no,
take a step back.
Like,
just don't,
right.
Like,
don't,
don't express that anger outwardly because that harms the classroom ecology as well.
But,
but just,
(27:56):
I was also just thinking about it in terms of like,
look,
I'm not even,
I,
I,
I'm not even talking here about chat GP T in terms of building arguments,
talking about like the classroom where we just,
we are together in which we listen or learn something together.
That has to be,
it's like,
but that,
that's also you,
(28:20):
I don't know it seems like you would want the classroom to be structured in a different way where you could actually all sit together and listen to two stories,
you know,
but you probably don't have the time or ability to do it.
There was a fully online class,
obviously you can't.
Yeah.
And I think this hints at just a larger issue which is that fully online classes and all the other tech fixes the tech reforms,
(28:47):
you know,
massive online education,
fully online using canvas zoom,
all this stuff you add chat GP t into the mix.
It doesn't necessarily equate to very much and um it doesn't equate to these sort of relationship building kinds of things,
but here's the thing and this kind of gets to,
(29:09):
I mean,
we could keep talking and we're,
we're gonna be out of time in a minute,
but we could certainly keep talking about this more,
which is that for administrators,
there's really no problem here,
you know,
um I was in a job interview a while ago where the uh uh last year where the,
um the dean who was interviewing me said,
(29:29):
you know,
I'd asked her about online teaching versus face to face teaching.
And she said that she has,
she feels really good about her,
you know,
online teaching because the six,
she sees that the success rates are,
you know,
just as high.
And,
you know,
to me,
I'm like,
well,
yeah,
of course they are because it's really easy to cheat.
I mean,
(29:49):
I teach the same classes face to face and online and the scores on tests are so different that the ones that they have to take in person versus the ones that they take online.
So,
but for administrators,
higher grades is a good thing.
You know,
everyone gets passed along.
They get an A,
um,
(30:10):
and,
and chat GP T is,
you know,
is not a problem And that's something that um Steven Sala talks about in his essay,
which is really this,
this fact that administrators would really probably like to wipe out a lot of our programs anyway,
that don't meet their vision of productivity.
(30:32):
Um And the more that they can kind of automate them um and just ha have,
you know,
move people through the pipeline quickly,
the better,
you know.
Yeah,
for sure.
Yeah,
it's,
it's,
it's creating so forms of like interest alignment or I don't know what the right phrase would be that are dangerous,
(30:55):
right?
Because they want to see movement through,
they want to see completion happening fast,
they want to see success rates and it's facilitating those things which are not good proxies for actual,
right,
actual valuable things like learning or ensuring that you've connected with somebody and have a relationship with them.
(31:16):
Um I think we should,
yeah,
wrap it up.
Yeah.
Um So we,
we can obviously cut this part.
So do you want me to just sort of say this part of that as we wrap.
Wait,
sorry,
I'm having trouble.
Where is that?
(31:42):
Oh,
yeah.
Sure.
Yeah.
Why don't you go ahead and do it as we wrap up.
We want our listeners to know we've got an exciting upcoming episode which will be coming out in early November.
We'll be speaking with some student and faculty organizers who have been pushing back against uh the,
the Santa and others who are trying to destroy education in Florida.
(32:04):
So our next episode uh after this one will be about uh campus organizing and cross coalition building in Florida against the right wing attack on,
on education.
So I'm excited to,
to have that come up and uh anything else to add?
No,
that sounds great.
(32:24):
David.
We um we would love to hear from our listeners,
I guess is the last thing I would say since probably some of you are educators.
If you have any thoughts on chat GP t either just personal experiences or your takes.
Um So feel free to hit us up on Twitter or Instagram,
we'll have our,
(32:44):
our handles in the show notes.
Our theme music is by Nigel Weiss.
Our artwork is by Arthur Kay.
You can find more of their artwork at RO radio dot tumblr dot com.
We would love it if you subscribe to our podcast and tell your friends about us,
rate and review us on all the major platforms.
(33:07):
Thanks for listening.
Bye.
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