April 4, 2024 • 33 mins
This is a must-listen for (international) researchers teaching students in Germany or aspiring to come to Germany. Kicking off season 4 of the PostdocTransformation show, Dr. Kristin Eichhorn is back and speaks with Dr. Amrei Bahr about the challenges facing German academia, including issues related to democracy, precarious working conditions, and the #IchBinHanna movement. They emphasize the importance of academia taking a stand, discussing strategies to address eroding democracy and the need for structural changes within research institutions.
Listen to this 34 min episode, as Prof. Dr. Eleonore Soei-Winkels interviews Dr. Kristin Eichhorn and Dr. Amrei Bahr for your career orientation in German academia! Capitalize on our chapter markers as needed.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Postdoc Transformation,postdoc transformation.
Postdoc transformation.
Invest in your PostdocTransformation.
(00:23):
Welcome to the seasonal show forscientists leaping into business.
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e courses and memberships, also atgraduate schools all over the world.
(00:46):
Maybe yours too.
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course for career transition madesimple as linked in the show notes.
I'm your host, Professor Dr.
Eleonore Soei-Winkels with myteam who is rooting for you.
And let's build yourPostdocTransformation with this episode.
(01:09):
To kick off season four of ourPostdocTransformation show.
I interviewed Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn, who already informedyou on the #IchBinHanna movement to
raise awareness for the precariousworking conditions in German academia.
Joining us for the first time is Dr.
, who is the second of three coinitiators of #IchBinHanna next to Dr.
(01:31):
Sebastian Kubon.
Dr.
Bahr is a junior professor for philosophyof technology and information at the
university of Stuttgart in Germany, checkout her research on AI like ChatGPT and
digital autonomy in science and education.
In 2023, she was awarded by theGerman business magazine Capital as
(01:52):
one of Germany's #Top40under40.
Join us as we deep dive into the urgentcall for democracy in German academia.
Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn and Dr.
Amrei Bahr shed light on the challenges,the risks and the essential role each
of us plays in preserving democracy.
Get ready for a thought-provokingdiscussion that will inspire
(02:15):
you to raise your voice andbe part of LauteWissenschaft.
Stay tuned for anenlightening journey ahead.
So, welcome to the stage, Dr..
Amrei Bahr and also Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn!
Hi, it's a pleasure to be here.
Yes, same, thank you for having us again.
uh
So, to give a little bit of context,I would love Kristin to introduce
(02:38):
us, early career scientists all overthe world who are maybe looking into
a career and a research career inGermany, but also all the others who
are already in Germany, what is thecurrent situation in academia, Germany?
We have to take a look at the broadersocial situation at the moment.
(02:58):
Most of your listeners will probablyknow that we have a particularly
dangerous situation for democracy rightnow, because there was, uh, there was
a report by Correctiv who brought intoview a situation that there was a meeting
at Potsdam where far right activistsalong with the AFD, CDU and some others
(03:18):
were planning to send a lot of peopleout of the country that do not have a
pure German background or if they havesome kind of family background where
people came from another country, soall these people might be in danger
of losing their place in our society.
So, and this has led to a hugemovement where people go to the
(03:39):
streets and demonstrate for democracy.
So, and our point of view is thatthe research community science has
been relatively quiet on the matter.
There are a few messages by now stepby step, there are universities and
put out statements, saying that we haveto support democracy and diversity.
It would be very important, totalk about this, what that means.
(04:00):
Because democracy is not just athing where science can step aside
and say, well, we are neutral, andwe can just watch and it doesn't
matter what happens outside.
Yeah, so and that was the reason whywe came up with this new hashtag,
which is #LauteWissenschaft, whichyou can translate to maybe either Loud
Science or better even Loud Academia,because we said, okay, so we have
(04:23):
all those statements by differentpeople, by different institutions
from all areas of the society, beit soccer or be it from the churches
or be it from companies and so on.
But at the point where all thosestatements were already there,
we were wondering, so what doinstitutions in academia actually do?
(04:44):
And also all the people in academiawere wondering, what can we do
actually, apart from going tothose demonstrations and so on.
That was something that we wanted tohighlight that also people from academia
and also institutions from academia haveto make very clear that this is dangerous
for democracy right now and that we needto position ourselves in those debates.
(05:09):
And once you have determined yourreadiness to leap and want to transition
into business or industries, then youcan enroll in your free email course with
10 actionable, bingeable email lessonsuntil you start your job in business.
You'll get 10 emails like this.
Number one, how to leap out of science.
Number two, how to build yoursustainable LinkedIn profile.
(05:32):
Number three, how to readsocial media and network.
Number four, how to researchyour favorite jobs and employers.
Number five, how to do informationinterviews to get insights.
Number six, how to create yourcustomized applications with ChatGPT.
Number seven, how to prepare yourthesis from a business point of view.
(05:52):
Number eight, how to applyto your favorite employers.
Number nine, how to choosethe right job offer.
Number 10, how toprepare for your new job.
And, another topic that we have beendealing with extensively actually as
a team was the #IchBinHannah movement.
(06:13):
And we saw there already that peopleare afraid to expose themselves
with things that happen insideacademia, that happen within science.
But here, especially, it is of coursesomething that people now need to do.
They need to take a position inthis debate and I think the more
secure you are, the more importantit is to actually do that.
(06:36):
Especially with regard to solidarity witheveryone, who would then be part of those
horrible plans that have been discussed.
We need to be especially loud.
So as a privileged person myself, Ithink I need to be especially loud in
order to make sure that the people thatI work with, who might then be part of
(06:57):
those plans, that they can stay here.
That is of utmost importance,especially because everything that we
do rests on this ground of democracy.
And we need to keep that also in academia.
I mean, the whole freedom ofscience is something that
comes from democracy, right?
And if that is in danger, thatis a bad thing for all of us.
(07:18):
And it's not just that.
The discussion is often framedlike, you know, we are in research
and then all the bad thingshappen outside of academia, right?
And that's just not the case,because you can see that we have
these tendencies inside of academia.
There has been a recent debate aboutthe Netzwerk Wissenschaftsfreiheit,
in which I am a little bit involved.
We could talk about this alittle bit more if you like.
(07:40):
In this situation, this is basically anetwork that fosters the narrative of
cancel culture that we have from the U.
S., like that narrative that theleft and the political correctness
is a danger for research areendangering our freedom of speech.
And also, the Correctiv researchhas shown that one of their members
was part of the Potsdam meeting.
(08:00):
So, and he talked about, you know,how do we question legitimately of
elections . So that's a huge issue.
So these tendencies are right therewithin the academic system and we need
to take a stand against those tendencies.
Thank you, Kristin.
I totally agree that academia consistsof people, people are different, some
(08:22):
of us are far right, unfortunately,some of us are more in the middle and
some of us fight for the rest of us.
So, when we look at academia in thedifferent institutions in the sense
of research but also administration,do you think that administration
should also be louder on that.
(08:42):
I mean, the individual researchermight have some hurdles or so, but more
power would come from the institutionsas chancellors, rectors, etc.
What would you expect from them?
Yeah, I think what they arealready doing is issuing those
statements, and that is important.
That is something that weactually asked them to do, to
(09:03):
be loud, to raise their voices.
But what we see with regard tothose statements, even if they are
about the whole debate about theNetzwerk Wissenschaftsfreiheit, we
see all those generic sentences.
Like, we want to save democracy,which is something that I
think many people can agree on.
(09:24):
But the thing that doesn't reallyhappen right now is to name the actual
dangers and risks and to name the actualcontext that we are talking about.
So, the statements that wehave, they don't go any further
from those generic statements.
What we need right now, and that'salso part of taking a position in
(09:45):
the whole debate, is to actuallytalk about what is the issue here,
just as Kristin has just done that.
Because otherwise, people willjust have those statements and say,
yeah, well, I can agree to that.
But the whole debate that this isreally about, namely certain events
actually and decisions that were beingmade, for instance by the, BBAW, the
(10:06):
Berlin Brandenburgische Akademie derWissenschaften, who agreed to have
the Netzwerk Wissenschaftsfreiheitin their building and one of their
rooms, where they could have an eventthat was the starting point of the
debate and that is something thatdoesn't appear in very many statements.
And I mean, that's the thing thatwe are talking about right now.
And if we cover this up withgeneric statements, then I think
(10:30):
that's a mistake, actually.
Yeah, I think institutions aredoing what they're always doing.
You know, they issue a statement becausethat's what is right now is the trend
and they feel obligated to say something,but it's not about what's actually done.
It's not just about the statements,it is what you do in everyday life.
And there we can also draw a littleconnection to #IchBinHannah because,
(10:51):
democracy is also a matter of theway academia is structured in itself.
And we have that strong hierarchy wherethe professors have all the say and can
do all the things and have all the rightsand everybody else is dependent upon them.
So we have a huge gap, because peopleare on non permanent contracts and so on.
This is not a democraticstructure in academia itself.
(11:12):
So, we have to ask the question,how sincere are these statements
given, what the structure behindclosed doors is actually like?
Thank you, Kristin, for your explanations.
And did you know that we offerdeep dive e course workshops and
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We can build a postertransformation together.
So, Amrei, what do you recommendthat I could do with my students,
apart from sharing your voice.
So, when you are teaching, what arered flags of situations where you see
(12:22):
democracy in academia is eroding and howwould you then handle those situations?
Well, I think the students are veryactive in fighting to save our democracy,
at least the ones that I've talked to.
And I think it's a good thing to give themspace to talk about what they worry about.
(12:42):
And I had the feeling when Idid that, they also worry a
lot and they also do a lot.
For instance, they havetheir own initiatives.
They have their own forms of protestand it's a good thing to share that
because then maybe other people willjoin them to discuss what we can
do in order to save our democracy.
It's very important to do all thoseprotests, of course, but there is so much
(13:03):
more that we can do, especially as peoplewho are teaching at universities because,
we are people whose voices will beheard, either in teaching or when we, for
instance, give a talk somewhere or sciencecommunication or something like that.
I think it's important to just raisethis issue and say the reason why I
can do what I can do, is that we havethis democracy that I'm standing upon.
(13:27):
And if this changes actually, thenthat would have bad consequences
not only for the whole society,but obviously also for academia.
And therefore, I think everywhere wheresomebody puts a microphone in front of
my mouth and lets me say something, itwould be a good thing to remind everybody,
that we all need to fight for democracy.
(13:49):
Thank you.
So, now when we're looking at the wholedebate about democracy and science, I
admit that I haven't been loud, eventhough I'm a professor since 10 years.
I'm a woman, I'm a mom,I'm a person of color.
And I try to play by the rules.
For many years I tried to be neutraland to be very objective and not to
(14:11):
be personal and everything like that.
And I agree with your studentswhen you say they want more.
It's not just about the professorshipas this as a position, but also
it must be filled by values.
So, Kristin, do you think, dowe need to come out of the box
and position ourselves as well.
(14:32):
That is exactly right.
What you're hinting at here is thata lot of professors, because they
are so they work for the state andthey feel that they are obligated
to stay objective and neutral.
There's this Neutralitätsgebot, however,if you are a professor in Germany,
your obligation is of course to theconstitution to protect the constitution.
(14:53):
So if there are movements or developmentsin society that threaten the working
system and the constitution, thenyou are actually obligated to step
up and do something about that.
That's not a problem.
What you cannot do is, address particularparties or advertise for other parties.
So, that's something you shouldn't do, butwhat you can do is, of course, stand up
(15:14):
and say, here's a particular developmentthat is dangerous for all of us.
And that is something wehave to do something about.
And I think that's particularlytrue if these developments come
from an area within science.
So, we are all so used to being objective,but you should not forget that the
enemy, will not play by those rules.
They will not be objective.
(15:35):
They're ignoring these rules, so if westep back and say, Oh, I can't do that,
then the other side is already winningbecause they're not playing by the rules.
Absolutely agreed.
We should teach our students and thenearly career scientists to have a voice.
I feel that in my generation, I'm42 years old, I was socialized by
(15:56):
professors who were not standing up,I'm really happy to have you both here.
I think that you represent a newgeneration of aspiring professors
who I want my own childrento look up as a role model.
And that's why I'm sharing my stage withyou so that you can let us know how we can
better our leadership within academia.
(16:20):
So, what are the rules and whichones are bypassed by certain
voices that erode democracy, Amrei?
I think what Kristin pointed outexcellently in her piece on the
blog by Jan-Martin Wiarda was thatwe have a certain confusion here.
So, people in academia tend to thinkthat the rules that apply, are the ones
(16:41):
that we are used to in science, right?
So we will convince other peopleif we have good arguments, they
will be convinced actually.
So we have this open discussion andthat's the thing that we are doing.
And what, Kristin pointed out was that,this is not what is happening here, right?
We are not in the area ofacademia and science, but we
are in the area of politics.
(17:02):
That doesn't mean that politicsis fundamentally different.
Of course, I would say at leastafter all those years of activism,
that good arguments are important.
You can convince people with goodarguments as well, but you also need
to take into account that the actorsthat are involved in those debates,
they don't all play by the same rules.
And we see that especially whenit comes to those people who are
(17:26):
not in the democratic spectrumanymore, they will Use everything
that they can use to manipulate,for instance, a certain debate.
So, they will not be convinced by yourgood arguments because they don't care.
They will derail the whole debate.
For instance, you will talk abouta certain issue and then they
will talk about something else.
And all those strategies that arebeing used, are something I think
(17:49):
that people in academia are notsufficiently aware of actually.
We need to distinguish carefullybetween what we are doing in
academia and science and what ishappening in this realm of politics.
And then we need to make sure that ifwe position ourselves as, people from
academia, as scientists, as scholars,then we need to be prepared for that.
(18:09):
And I think that is something thatKristin really excellently pointed
out that we cannot just, rely on thoserules, but we need to expect some people
to do something completely different.
And if we don't then have somethingto react appropriately, then that's
something that is risky, I think.
So, we need to come up with strategieshow to deal with those people who will
(18:32):
just say I don't care about any rule "Ijust want to make my point here no matter
what", because that is something thatis bad, as well as in academia, and we
shouldn't let people go through with that.
I think that that really was a lot offood for thought to let me also reflect
on how I teach and this is one of thespecial occasions where I talk to other
(18:55):
professors and see that it is importantto change because if we don't say
anything, the others have already won.
And which of the blog posts orother things that you have done and
mentioned are worthwhile to note here.
(19:17):
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I think the whole debate about thissituation in the Berlin Wissenschaften,
(20:02):
I think that's noticeable.
So there were two blog posts onjan-Martin Wiarda, One by me, and
then the response by the president ofthe BBAW, Christoph Markschies, and
there are other parts of the debate,Geraldine Rauch, the president of the
Technische Universität Berlinhas said something about it.
So all these things are in German, sadly.
So we don't have much Englishspeaking material yet.
(20:24):
Definitely you should checkout Amrei's newsletter.
Because there's one newsletter where shesums up the whole debate, but she will
probably, I assume, be writing aboutthis issue more often in the future.
So check that out.
And I mean, it's not that difficulttoday to find, an app that will
help you translate it into English incase you're not so good with German.
So I think that's a, probably agood strategy to stay up to date.
(20:46):
Yeah, and also what you can do isfollow the hashtag #LauteWissenschaft.
That is also something you can not onlyfollow it, but you can also post things.
For instance, if your universityor research institution issues a
statement as well, we try to collectall of them with this hashtag.
But also if you do yourself somethingthat, you would say is "laute
Wissenschaft", is raising your voice fordemocracy, for instance, in teaching or in
(21:11):
your research, presentation or whatever,then you can also indicate that there
because other people might be inspired.
And that's, I think, also a goodthing that we work together there.
And that is something that we have seenexcellently with the whole #IchBinHanna
thing, that people are a community.
They share what they are doing.
They support each other.
And I think that is something thingthat we can also do here, and it's
(21:34):
very important, and we can even doit here with many more people because
it's something that is not somethingexclusively about people in academia, and
their job situation, which of course alsoaffects, affects other people in society.
But here we have somethingthat is obviously something
that we all should care about.
So we need, those broad communities,and we need to share our experiences,
(21:59):
share if we have good ideas, thenother people might be inspired,
and I think that's also important.
Perfect.
And I'll make sure to link all thethings that you have mentioned the
resources, but also the hashtags orevery, you know, all your social media
channels, I will link in the show notes.
So make sure that you find them.
And I absolutely agree.
I'm also one of the recipientsof Amrei's newsletter.
(22:23):
And every time I get this, it'sreally like I hear the voice
of someone who should be heardand who makes a difference.
And I hope that with this episodeof the PostdocTransformation Show,
we make a difference, especiallyfor those who live in Germany who
are impacted by the whole issue oferoding democracy in German academia.
(22:52):
And just in case you are nowcurious about #IchBinHanna in
Germany and the episode with Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn.
I want you to listen to this bit.
You have to know that Ich bin Hanna isoriginally a Twitter campaign that I've
done with Amre Bar and Sebastian Kubon.
It's important to know thatIch bin Hanna means I am Hanna.
The question is, who is Hanna?
(23:12):
Hanna is a character from a video thatwas done by the ministry for education.
And they were trying to explain.
The law that gives way to hiring peopleon non permanent contracts in research.
Because in Germany, there's a specific lawthat allows researchers on non permanent
(23:33):
contracts for six years before their PhDand for another six years after a PhD.
This is an employment situation thatwould not be legal in another field.
This is specifically for Forresearchers, they presented this
whole situation in the video.
I like, this is a really great thing.
I like innovation is necessary, needsfluctuation to, to come through.
(23:55):
And then they had this nice phrasewhere they said, uh, one generation
should not clog the system.
Basically, we all just haveto leave science in the end.
So another generation has the greatchance of experiencing that work
environment and I'll get theirPhDs and other qualifications.
A little bit about the situationand the way we work, the short term
(24:17):
contract, sometimes people are hiredonly for a year or just a few months.
If you're lucky, you get a threeyear contract and that situation
can last very long in your career.
Most researchers, if you stay in science.
Will probably end up in their mid fortiesand they either find a professorship,
which is hard to do, or they drop outand then they have to find another job.
(24:39):
And that's obviously very hard to dowhen you are that far in your career
and you have never done anything else.
Depending on your field, itmight be harder or easier.
But in general, this is just asituation that is not very good.
So we have no, almostno permanent contracts.
You have people working overtimewithout pay, uh, giving up everything,
(24:59):
leaving their families from Tuesdayto Thursday because they're living
in another town because they have tocommute hundreds of kilometers and so on.
So this is a very bad situation.
And I think it's been known insearch circles for a long, long
time, but it wasn't really until thepandemic until we managed to build
up over Twitter, a community thatactually addresses these issues.
(25:22):
So we started with another campaign wherewe collected 95 theses against the law.
That was a little funnything on Reformation Day.
If you're familiar with MartinLuther, he had these 95 theses.
So we did a little.
But the really successful thing wasIch bin Hanna, where we identified
with Hanna as a character.
This is a fictional characterfor whom everything is great.
(25:43):
We said we identify and weshow the real people and their
real struggles behind that.
How we get a more realisticpicture of what that looks like.
That turned out quite successful.
There's a good narrativefor the press as well.
So that's the general situation.
Dr.
Amrei Bahr, Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn and Dr.
Sebastian Kubon have also publisheda book on #IchBinHanna about
(26:04):
prekäre Wissenschaft in Deutschland.
And I want you to read that if youare an early career scientist in
Germany, or want to become one.
Because that really is eye-opening.
And this is anotherimportant message by Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn Forinternational scientists
leaping into Germany's academia.
(26:25):
Especially people who come from abroad,they need to know what situation they're
in, because very often when they havea non permanent contract, they don't
get to stay in the country because,you know, then their right runs out.
They have to go back to theirown country because they have no
contract or the contract comes onlya day before they start working.
So there's a lot of problems, uh,international researchers have that
(26:46):
we as German citizens will not have.
So it's very important, I think,so at least to know what system
you're working in, even if you don'tprotest against it, just for your
own survival, it's very importantthat you know what the situation is.
So if you have access to theinformation and you know colleagues
who don't, spread the word.
And Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn also share somethingon research institutions that is
(27:08):
probably not just confined to Germanacademia, but applies worldwide.
You know, the research institutionsmostly want things to remain as they are.
So if they can just hire a staff andlet them go again, there's really a lot
of activism against a general changeof the system, which we so desperately
need, not just for researchers, butit's also science itself suffers
(27:30):
from that because we already have.
Problems finding people to hire here.
And then you have all these shortterm projects that end somewhere and
all public money that gets wastedjust because a project is started.
And then you build on a website whereyou buy a big, I don't know, some
big device that is super expensive.
And then the person who knows how tohandle this, how to do the research is
(27:53):
gone because their contract has run out.
So this is a really bad situation, butit's very hard to bring about change.
Don't miss out on the general advice forPhD students, postdocs, but also even
for a bachelor and master students by Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn in her own episode,which I will link in the show notes.
By the way, this was one of the mostfavorite episodes of season three.
(28:21):
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And maybe you have already your doctorunder your belt, or you are a postdoc.
You are internationally experienced,fluent in English, a leader and
expert in your prior research field.
You're resilient, brilliant inadaptation and problem solving.
You are eager to bring in thetransferable and monetizable
skills needed in many countries.
(29:49):
To embrace the future and to become orremain an innovator in their markets.
And I hope that you, myPostdocTransformers, will now
be able to have a better pictureinto the whole situation.
So, please look into the show notes.
Whew.
We kicked off season four of ourPostdocTransformation show or for a
(30:09):
scientist leaping into business ona high note, season four is themed
future of work in various industries.
And we already haverecorded interviews with.
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discussing the future of work in HR.
And that will be also interestingfor every scientist who wants
(30:30):
to leap into the biotech andpharmaceutical companies of the world.
Next in line is Dr.
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as seen on LinkedIn, Germany.
You don't want to miss that episode.
And my dear friend, Susanne Schmutzlershe is a managing director for
consulting in digital life sciences.
And then we'll be talkingwith the inspiring role model.
(30:53):
Dr.
Tina Persson, a leadershipcoach from Sweden.
I would also have a solo episodeon the happiness with kids and
career as requested by you.
And then I'll be talking with
from Canada about the valueof a PhD and management.
And that will be enriched by thediscussion with from Canada on
(31:15):
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(31:36):
Luna Munoz, a PhD career coach, andwe have PhD candidate, Lela Griesbach.
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And then we have AshleyRuba, a PhD career coach.
Also, I'll be having anothersolo episode on the expert
versus leadership career tracks.
And we are already recordingfor the next seasons.
(31:59):
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(32:20):
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(32:40):
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(33:46):
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(01:09):
To kick off season four of ourPostdocTransformation show.
I interviewed Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn, who already informedyou on the #IchBinHanna movement to
raise awareness for the precariousworking conditions in German academia.
Joining us for the first time is Dr.
, who is the second of three coinitiators of #IchBinHanna next to Dr.
(01:31):
Sebastian Kubon.
Dr.
Bahr is a junior professor for philosophyof technology and information at the
university of Stuttgart in Germany, checkout her research on AI like ChatGPT and
digital autonomy in science and education.
In 2023, she was awarded by theGerman business magazine Capital as
(01:52):
one of Germany's #Top40under40.
Join us as we deep dive into the urgentcall for democracy in German academia.
Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn and Dr.
Amrei Bahr shed light on the challenges,the risks and the essential role each
of us plays in preserving democracy.
Get ready for a thought-provokingdiscussion that will inspire
(02:15):
you to raise your voice andbe part of LauteWissenschaft.
Stay tuned for anenlightening journey ahead.
So, welcome to the stage, Dr..
Amrei Bahr and also Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn!
Hi, it's a pleasure to be here.
Yes, same, thank you for having us again.
uh
So, to give a little bit of context,I would love Kristin to introduce
(02:38):
us, early career scientists all overthe world who are maybe looking into
a career and a research career inGermany, but also all the others who
are already in Germany, what is thecurrent situation in academia, Germany?
We have to take a look at the broadersocial situation at the moment.
(02:58):
Most of your listeners will probablyknow that we have a particularly
dangerous situation for democracy rightnow, because there was, uh, there was
a report by Correctiv who brought intoview a situation that there was a meeting
at Potsdam where far right activistsalong with the AFD, CDU and some others
(03:18):
were planning to send a lot of peopleout of the country that do not have a
pure German background or if they havesome kind of family background where
people came from another country, soall these people might be in danger
of losing their place in our society.
So, and this has led to a hugemovement where people go to the
(03:39):
streets and demonstrate for democracy.
So, and our point of view is thatthe research community science has
been relatively quiet on the matter.
There are a few messages by now stepby step, there are universities and
put out statements, saying that we haveto support democracy and diversity.
It would be very important, totalk about this, what that means.
(04:00):
Because democracy is not just athing where science can step aside
and say, well, we are neutral, andwe can just watch and it doesn't
matter what happens outside.
Yeah, so and that was the reason whywe came up with this new hashtag,
which is #LauteWissenschaft, whichyou can translate to maybe either Loud
Science or better even Loud Academia,because we said, okay, so we have
(04:23):
all those statements by differentpeople, by different institutions
from all areas of the society, beit soccer or be it from the churches
or be it from companies and so on.
But at the point where all thosestatements were already there,
we were wondering, so what doinstitutions in academia actually do?
(04:44):
And also all the people in academiawere wondering, what can we do
actually, apart from going tothose demonstrations and so on.
That was something that we wanted tohighlight that also people from academia
and also institutions from academia haveto make very clear that this is dangerous
for democracy right now and that we needto position ourselves in those debates.
(05:09):
And once you have determined yourreadiness to leap and want to transition
into business or industries, then youcan enroll in your free email course with
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(05:32):
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And, another topic that we have beendealing with extensively actually as
a team was the #IchBinHannah movement.
(06:13):
And we saw there already that peopleare afraid to expose themselves
with things that happen insideacademia, that happen within science.
But here, especially, it is of coursesomething that people now need to do.
They need to take a position inthis debate and I think the more
secure you are, the more importantit is to actually do that.
(06:36):
Especially with regard to solidarity witheveryone, who would then be part of those
horrible plans that have been discussed.
We need to be especially loud.
So as a privileged person myself, Ithink I need to be especially loud in
order to make sure that the people thatI work with, who might then be part of
(06:57):
those plans, that they can stay here.
That is of utmost importance,especially because everything that we
do rests on this ground of democracy.
And we need to keep that also in academia.
I mean, the whole freedom ofscience is something that
comes from democracy, right?
And if that is in danger, thatis a bad thing for all of us.
(07:18):
And it's not just that.
The discussion is often framedlike, you know, we are in research
and then all the bad thingshappen outside of academia, right?
And that's just not the case,because you can see that we have
these tendencies inside of academia.
There has been a recent debate aboutthe Netzwerk Wissenschaftsfreiheit,
in which I am a little bit involved.
We could talk about this alittle bit more if you like.
(07:40):
In this situation, this is basically anetwork that fosters the narrative of
cancel culture that we have from the U.
S., like that narrative that theleft and the political correctness
is a danger for research areendangering our freedom of speech.
And also, the Correctiv researchhas shown that one of their members
was part of the Potsdam meeting.
(08:00):
So, and he talked about, you know,how do we question legitimately of
elections . So that's a huge issue.
So these tendencies are right therewithin the academic system and we need
to take a stand against those tendencies.
Thank you, Kristin.
I totally agree that academia consistsof people, people are different, some
(08:22):
of us are far right, unfortunately,some of us are more in the middle and
some of us fight for the rest of us.
So, when we look at academia in thedifferent institutions in the sense
of research but also administration,do you think that administration
should also be louder on that.
(08:42):
I mean, the individual researchermight have some hurdles or so, but more
power would come from the institutionsas chancellors, rectors, etc.
What would you expect from them?
Yeah, I think what they arealready doing is issuing those
statements, and that is important.
That is something that weactually asked them to do, to
(09:03):
be loud, to raise their voices.
But what we see with regard tothose statements, even if they are
about the whole debate about theNetzwerk Wissenschaftsfreiheit, we
see all those generic sentences.
Like, we want to save democracy,which is something that I
think many people can agree on.
(09:24):
But the thing that doesn't reallyhappen right now is to name the actual
dangers and risks and to name the actualcontext that we are talking about.
So, the statements that wehave, they don't go any further
from those generic statements.
What we need right now, and that'salso part of taking a position in
(09:45):
the whole debate, is to actuallytalk about what is the issue here,
just as Kristin has just done that.
Because otherwise, people willjust have those statements and say,
yeah, well, I can agree to that.
But the whole debate that this isreally about, namely certain events
actually and decisions that were beingmade, for instance by the, BBAW, the
(10:06):
Berlin Brandenburgische Akademie derWissenschaften, who agreed to have
the Netzwerk Wissenschaftsfreiheitin their building and one of their
rooms, where they could have an eventthat was the starting point of the
debate and that is something thatdoesn't appear in very many statements.
And I mean, that's the thing thatwe are talking about right now.
And if we cover this up withgeneric statements, then I think
(10:30):
that's a mistake, actually.
Yeah, I think institutions aredoing what they're always doing.
You know, they issue a statement becausethat's what is right now is the trend
and they feel obligated to say something,but it's not about what's actually done.
It's not just about the statements,it is what you do in everyday life.
And there we can also draw a littleconnection to #IchBinHannah because,
(10:51):
democracy is also a matter of theway academia is structured in itself.
And we have that strong hierarchy wherethe professors have all the say and can
do all the things and have all the rightsand everybody else is dependent upon them.
So we have a huge gap, because peopleare on non permanent contracts and so on.
This is not a democraticstructure in academia itself.
(11:12):
So, we have to ask the question,how sincere are these statements
given, what the structure behindclosed doors is actually like?
Thank you, Kristin, for your explanations.
And did you know that we offerdeep dive e course workshops and
memberships at graduate schools,maybe also at yours in the future?
(11:34):
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(11:58):
to transition into business.
We can build a postertransformation together.
So, Amrei, what do you recommendthat I could do with my students,
apart from sharing your voice.
So, when you are teaching, what arered flags of situations where you see
(12:22):
democracy in academia is eroding and howwould you then handle those situations?
Well, I think the students are veryactive in fighting to save our democracy,
at least the ones that I've talked to.
And I think it's a good thing to give themspace to talk about what they worry about.
(12:42):
And I had the feeling when Idid that, they also worry a
lot and they also do a lot.
For instance, they havetheir own initiatives.
They have their own forms of protestand it's a good thing to share that
because then maybe other people willjoin them to discuss what we can
do in order to save our democracy.
It's very important to do all thoseprotests, of course, but there is so much
(13:03):
more that we can do, especially as peoplewho are teaching at universities because,
we are people whose voices will beheard, either in teaching or when we, for
instance, give a talk somewhere or sciencecommunication or something like that.
I think it's important to just raisethis issue and say the reason why I
can do what I can do, is that we havethis democracy that I'm standing upon.
(13:27):
And if this changes actually, thenthat would have bad consequences
not only for the whole society,but obviously also for academia.
And therefore, I think everywhere wheresomebody puts a microphone in front of
my mouth and lets me say something, itwould be a good thing to remind everybody,
that we all need to fight for democracy.
(13:49):
Thank you.
So, now when we're looking at the wholedebate about democracy and science, I
admit that I haven't been loud, eventhough I'm a professor since 10 years.
I'm a woman, I'm a mom,I'm a person of color.
And I try to play by the rules.
For many years I tried to be neutraland to be very objective and not to
(14:11):
be personal and everything like that.
And I agree with your studentswhen you say they want more.
It's not just about the professorshipas this as a position, but also
it must be filled by values.
So, Kristin, do you think, dowe need to come out of the box
and position ourselves as well.
(14:32):
That is exactly right.
What you're hinting at here is thata lot of professors, because they
are so they work for the state andthey feel that they are obligated
to stay objective and neutral.
There's this Neutralitätsgebot, however,if you are a professor in Germany,
your obligation is of course to theconstitution to protect the constitution.
(14:53):
So if there are movements or developmentsin society that threaten the working
system and the constitution, thenyou are actually obligated to step
up and do something about that.
That's not a problem.
What you cannot do is, address particularparties or advertise for other parties.
So, that's something you shouldn't do, butwhat you can do is, of course, stand up
(15:14):
and say, here's a particular developmentthat is dangerous for all of us.
And that is something wehave to do something about.
And I think that's particularlytrue if these developments come
from an area within science.
So, we are all so used to being objective,but you should not forget that the
enemy, will not play by those rules.
They will not be objective.
(15:35):
They're ignoring these rules, so if westep back and say, Oh, I can't do that,
then the other side is already winningbecause they're not playing by the rules.
Absolutely agreed.
We should teach our students and thenearly career scientists to have a voice.
I feel that in my generation, I'm42 years old, I was socialized by
(15:56):
professors who were not standing up,I'm really happy to have you both here.
I think that you represent a newgeneration of aspiring professors
who I want my own childrento look up as a role model.
And that's why I'm sharing my stage withyou so that you can let us know how we can
better our leadership within academia.
(16:20):
So, what are the rules and whichones are bypassed by certain
voices that erode democracy, Amrei?
I think what Kristin pointed outexcellently in her piece on the
blog by Jan-Martin Wiarda was thatwe have a certain confusion here.
So, people in academia tend to thinkthat the rules that apply, are the ones
(16:41):
that we are used to in science, right?
So we will convince other peopleif we have good arguments, they
will be convinced actually.
So we have this open discussion andthat's the thing that we are doing.
And what, Kristin pointed out was that,this is not what is happening here, right?
We are not in the area ofacademia and science, but we
are in the area of politics.
(17:02):
That doesn't mean that politicsis fundamentally different.
Of course, I would say at leastafter all those years of activism,
that good arguments are important.
You can convince people with goodarguments as well, but you also need
to take into account that the actorsthat are involved in those debates,
they don't all play by the same rules.
And we see that especially whenit comes to those people who are
(17:26):
not in the democratic spectrumanymore, they will Use everything
that they can use to manipulate,for instance, a certain debate.
So, they will not be convinced by yourgood arguments because they don't care.
They will derail the whole debate.
For instance, you will talk abouta certain issue and then they
will talk about something else.
And all those strategies that arebeing used, are something I think
(17:49):
that people in academia are notsufficiently aware of actually.
We need to distinguish carefullybetween what we are doing in
academia and science and what ishappening in this realm of politics.
And then we need to make sure that ifwe position ourselves as, people from
academia, as scientists, as scholars,then we need to be prepared for that.
(18:09):
And I think that is something thatKristin really excellently pointed
out that we cannot just, rely on thoserules, but we need to expect some people
to do something completely different.
And if we don't then have somethingto react appropriately, then that's
something that is risky, I think.
So, we need to come up with strategieshow to deal with those people who will
(18:32):
just say I don't care about any rule "Ijust want to make my point here no matter
what", because that is something thatis bad, as well as in academia, and we
shouldn't let people go through with that.
I think that that really was a lot offood for thought to let me also reflect
on how I teach and this is one of thespecial occasions where I talk to other
(18:55):
professors and see that it is importantto change because if we don't say
anything, the others have already won.
And which of the blog posts orother things that you have done and
mentioned are worthwhile to note here.
(19:17):
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(19:38):
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And now back to the show.
I think the whole debate about thissituation in the Berlin Wissenschaften,
(20:02):
I think that's noticeable.
So there were two blog posts onjan-Martin Wiarda, One by me, and
then the response by the president ofthe BBAW, Christoph Markschies, and
there are other parts of the debate,Geraldine Rauch, the president of the
Technische Universität Berlinhas said something about it.
So all these things are in German, sadly.
So we don't have much Englishspeaking material yet.
(20:24):
Definitely you should checkout Amrei's newsletter.
Because there's one newsletter where shesums up the whole debate, but she will
probably, I assume, be writing aboutthis issue more often in the future.
So check that out.
And I mean, it's not that difficulttoday to find, an app that will
help you translate it into English incase you're not so good with German.
So I think that's a, probably agood strategy to stay up to date.
(20:46):
Yeah, and also what you can do isfollow the hashtag #LauteWissenschaft.
That is also something you can not onlyfollow it, but you can also post things.
For instance, if your universityor research institution issues a
statement as well, we try to collectall of them with this hashtag.
But also if you do yourself somethingthat, you would say is "laute
Wissenschaft", is raising your voice fordemocracy, for instance, in teaching or in
(21:11):
your research, presentation or whatever,then you can also indicate that there
because other people might be inspired.
And that's, I think, also a goodthing that we work together there.
And that is something that we have seenexcellently with the whole #IchBinHanna
thing, that people are a community.
They share what they are doing.
They support each other.
And I think that is something thingthat we can also do here, and it's
(21:34):
very important, and we can even doit here with many more people because
it's something that is not somethingexclusively about people in academia, and
their job situation, which of course alsoaffects, affects other people in society.
But here we have somethingthat is obviously something
that we all should care about.
So we need, those broad communities,and we need to share our experiences,
(21:59):
share if we have good ideas, thenother people might be inspired,
and I think that's also important.
Perfect.
And I'll make sure to link all thethings that you have mentioned the
resources, but also the hashtags orevery, you know, all your social media
channels, I will link in the show notes.
So make sure that you find them.
And I absolutely agree.
I'm also one of the recipientsof Amrei's newsletter.
(22:23):
And every time I get this, it'sreally like I hear the voice
of someone who should be heardand who makes a difference.
And I hope that with this episodeof the PostdocTransformation Show,
we make a difference, especiallyfor those who live in Germany who
are impacted by the whole issue oferoding democracy in German academia.
(22:52):
And just in case you are nowcurious about #IchBinHanna in
Germany and the episode with Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn.
I want you to listen to this bit.
You have to know that Ich bin Hanna isoriginally a Twitter campaign that I've
done with Amre Bar and Sebastian Kubon.
It's important to know thatIch bin Hanna means I am Hanna.
The question is, who is Hanna?
(23:12):
Hanna is a character from a video thatwas done by the ministry for education.
And they were trying to explain.
The law that gives way to hiring peopleon non permanent contracts in research.
Because in Germany, there's a specific lawthat allows researchers on non permanent
(23:33):
contracts for six years before their PhDand for another six years after a PhD.
This is an employment situation thatwould not be legal in another field.
This is specifically for Forresearchers, they presented this
whole situation in the video.
I like, this is a really great thing.
I like innovation is necessary, needsfluctuation to, to come through.
(23:55):
And then they had this nice phrasewhere they said, uh, one generation
should not clog the system.
Basically, we all just haveto leave science in the end.
So another generation has the greatchance of experiencing that work
environment and I'll get theirPhDs and other qualifications.
A little bit about the situationand the way we work, the short term
(24:17):
contract, sometimes people are hiredonly for a year or just a few months.
If you're lucky, you get a threeyear contract and that situation
can last very long in your career.
Most researchers, if you stay in science.
Will probably end up in their mid fortiesand they either find a professorship,
which is hard to do, or they drop outand then they have to find another job.
(24:39):
And that's obviously very hard to dowhen you are that far in your career
and you have never done anything else.
Depending on your field, itmight be harder or easier.
But in general, this is just asituation that is not very good.
So we have no, almostno permanent contracts.
You have people working overtimewithout pay, uh, giving up everything,
(24:59):
leaving their families from Tuesdayto Thursday because they're living
in another town because they have tocommute hundreds of kilometers and so on.
So this is a very bad situation.
And I think it's been known insearch circles for a long, long
time, but it wasn't really until thepandemic until we managed to build
up over Twitter, a community thatactually addresses these issues.
(25:22):
So we started with another campaign wherewe collected 95 theses against the law.
That was a little funnything on Reformation Day.
If you're familiar with MartinLuther, he had these 95 theses.
So we did a little.
But the really successful thing wasIch bin Hanna, where we identified
with Hanna as a character.
This is a fictional characterfor whom everything is great.
(25:43):
We said we identify and weshow the real people and their
real struggles behind that.
How we get a more realisticpicture of what that looks like.
That turned out quite successful.
There's a good narrativefor the press as well.
So that's the general situation.
Dr.
Amrei Bahr, Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn and Dr.
Sebastian Kubon have also publisheda book on #IchBinHanna about
(26:04):
prekäre Wissenschaft in Deutschland.
And I want you to read that if youare an early career scientist in
Germany, or want to become one.
Because that really is eye-opening.
And this is anotherimportant message by Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn Forinternational scientists
leaping into Germany's academia.
(26:25):
Especially people who come from abroad,they need to know what situation they're
in, because very often when they havea non permanent contract, they don't
get to stay in the country because,you know, then their right runs out.
They have to go back to theirown country because they have no
contract or the contract comes onlya day before they start working.
So there's a lot of problems, uh,international researchers have that
(26:46):
we as German citizens will not have.
So it's very important, I think,so at least to know what system
you're working in, even if you don'tprotest against it, just for your
own survival, it's very importantthat you know what the situation is.
So if you have access to theinformation and you know colleagues
who don't, spread the word.
And Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn also share somethingon research institutions that is
(27:08):
probably not just confined to Germanacademia, but applies worldwide.
You know, the research institutionsmostly want things to remain as they are.
So if they can just hire a staff andlet them go again, there's really a lot
of activism against a general changeof the system, which we so desperately
need, not just for researchers, butit's also science itself suffers
(27:30):
from that because we already have.
Problems finding people to hire here.
And then you have all these shortterm projects that end somewhere and
all public money that gets wastedjust because a project is started.
And then you build on a website whereyou buy a big, I don't know, some
big device that is super expensive.
And then the person who knows how tohandle this, how to do the research is
(27:53):
gone because their contract has run out.
So this is a really bad situation, butit's very hard to bring about change.
Don't miss out on the general advice forPhD students, postdocs, but also even
for a bachelor and master students by Dr.
Kristin Eichhorn in her own episode,which I will link in the show notes.
By the way, this was one of the mostfavorite episodes of season three.
(28:21):
Hey, Postdoc Transformer, areyou curious to ask professors,
principal investigators, visitingscientists, postdocs, PhD students,
and candidates some in depth lifeand career guiding questions?
But if it's cringe, soyou end up not asking.
Buy our Postdoc Transformation CardGame to have more fun and valuable
(28:43):
insights in your journal club, lab, andmentoring meetings, lab rotations, during
conferences, panels, and breaks at theMensa, you'll get 10 intriguing Mentoring
questions per career level, so 10 forPhD students, 10 for postdocs, 10 for
professors, 10 for parented scientists,underprivileged and underrepresented
(29:05):
and underserved scientists.
Check them out with our discountcoupon on the postdoc transformation
shop linked on postdoctransformation.
com
Remember, you are a PostdocTransformerYou are highly intelligent, well
educated, a bachelor, master.
(29:26):
And maybe you have already your doctorunder your belt, or you are a postdoc.
You are internationally experienced,fluent in English, a leader and
expert in your prior research field.
You're resilient, brilliant inadaptation and problem solving.
You are eager to bring in thetransferable and monetizable
skills needed in many countries.
(29:49):
To embrace the future and to become orremain an innovator in their markets.
And I hope that you, myPostdocTransformers, will now
be able to have a better pictureinto the whole situation.
So, please look into the show notes.
Whew.
We kicked off season four of ourPostdocTransformation show or for a
(30:09):
scientist leaping into business ona high note, season four is themed
future of work in various industries.
And we already haverecorded interviews with.
Candice Zarei she representsPharmuni and also we'll be
discussing the future of work in HR.
And that will be also interestingfor every scientist who wants
(30:30):
to leap into the biotech andpharmaceutical companies of the world.
Next in line is Dr.
Irene Kilubi and she's anengineer and the marketing queen
as seen on LinkedIn, Germany.
You don't want to miss that episode.
And my dear friend, Susanne Schmutzlershe is a managing director for
consulting in digital life sciences.
And then we'll be talkingwith the inspiring role model.
(30:53):
Dr.
Tina Persson, a leadershipcoach from Sweden.
I would also have a solo episodeon the happiness with kids and
career as requested by you.
And then I'll be talking with
from Canada about the valueof a PhD and management.
And that will be enriched by thediscussion with from Canada on
(31:15):
mastering out of a PhD program.
And I can't wait to share myinterview with you with Noma Mguni
from England on her initiative.
#PhDHardtalk.
She is trailblazing on tech opand Instagram, and also YouTube.
And we have Dr.
Christine Solf, she's a principaldirector at Accenture and Dr.
(31:36):
Luna Munoz, a PhD career coach, andwe have PhD candidate, Lela Griesbach.
She is researching on womenentrepreneurship in Georgia.
And then we have AshleyRuba, a PhD career coach.
Also, I'll be having anothersolo episode on the expert
versus leadership career tracks.
And we are already recordingfor the next seasons.
(31:59):
So stay tuned, subscribe to not missout for your PostdocTransformation.
Woo.
And now it's time to thank companyABC, who sponsors this episode of
the PostdocTransformation show.
I would now be reading the company'sanswers to one of six bold questions
so that you can choose to apply.
(32:20):
For example, number one, describeyour most valuable experts
versus leaders in your company.
Have they typically earned a doctor title?
Number two.
For whichever company roles orunits do you encourage somebody
with a doctor title to apply?
Number three.
How would you describe your organizationalculture in which your most valuable
(32:40):
experts and leaders thrive in?
To nominate an employer ofchoice so that we can ask our own
formative bold questions, let usknow by the click on the link.
If you are a company representative,like in recruiting and employer
branding, and now you want your companyto be highlighted as an employer
of choice for our audience, youcan become a sponsor of a dedicated
(33:04):
PostdocTransformation Show episode.
Just click on the link in the show notes.
And now back to the PostalTransformation episode.
Do you want a transcript of our episode?
And our episode sponsors answersto all six bold questions so
that you can choose to apply.
Do you want to nominate yourpotential employer of choice so that
we can ask them our bold questions?
(33:25):
For all of that, click on our links inour show notes and on our website, www.
postdoctransformation.
com.
Remember to check your readinessto leap out of science and to
enroll in our free email courseCareer Transition Made Simple.
Thanks for your attention.
I'm Professor Dr.
Eleonore Soei-Winkels, the host of yourseasonal PostdocTransformation show.
(33:46):
Post Hoc Transformation
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