In this PostdocTransformation Show episode, Prof. Dr. Richa Chandra & Dr. Amber Miller from WISEcast talk with Prof. Dr. Eleonore Soei-Winkels about the challenges faced by women in STEM, particularly in academia, focusing on microaggressions, intersectionality, and barriers to career progression. They highlight the importance of empowering women and daughters, advocating for diversity in hiring practices, and transitioning into business. The conversation delves into the impact of biases, the need for inclusivity, and efforts to create a more equitable environment in STEM fields.
Listen to this 33 min episode, as Prof. Dr. Eleonore Soei-Winkels talk with Dr. Amber Miller & Prof. Dr. Richa Chandra, who host their own inspiring podcast "WISEcast"! Capitalize on our chapter markers as needed.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Postdoc Transformation,postdoc transformation.
Postdoc transformation.
Invest in your PostdocTransformation.
Welcome to the seasonal show forscientists leaping into business.
(00:24):
In every sponsored episode, we are happyto recommend employers of choice for you.
Make sure to check your readinessto leap out of science with us for
free, as linked in the show notes.
For your career transition, weoffer customized career transition
e courses and memberships, also atgraduate schools all over the world.
Maybe yours too.
(00:44):
And if your university isn't yet ourcustomer, enroll in your free email
course for career transition madesimple as linked in the show notes.
I'm your host, Professor Dr.
Eleonore Soei Winkels, with myteam who is rooting for you.
And let's build yourPostdocTransformation with this episode.
Welcome, PostdocTransformers.
This is a very special episode becauseI'm collaborating now with WISEcast,
(01:09):
hosted by the wisest women, Dr.
Richa Chandra and Dr.
Amber Miller.
And you are now listening to thesecond part of our conversation around
picture a scientist, which meansthat if you haven't listened yet
to the first part in their WISECastpodcast, then click on this link below.
So that takes you directly totheir first episode of Picture
(01:31):
a Scientist, our conversation.
And then after that, I hope thatyou will be coming back to the
PostdocTransformation Show for thesecond part of this conversation.
Now, I assume you have alreadylistened to our first part in WISEcast.
Why am I so happy to be herecollaborating with WISEcast?
Well, WISEcast is the podcast forwomen in STEM in education and is
(01:57):
hosted by the wisest women, Dr.
Richa Chandra and Dr.
Amber Miller.
Dr.
Richa Chandra is a tenuredassociate professor, Chair of
chemistry at the University of St.
Thomas in Houston, Texas, US And Dr.
Amber Miller is a researchscientist at Bethyl Laboratories
in Montgomery, Texas, US.
(02:17):
is an organization bringing equityand STEM by empowering women
through real conversations and theybring awareness to the challenges
women face in STEM and education.
I'm opening brackets here.
I really do think that they alsospeak especially to moms and people
of color, because it's not just agender thing, it's intersectional.
(02:38):
To turn these challenges intoopportunities, they inspire others
to find their place in STEM, buildtheir tribe by making meaningful
connections, and develop their voiceto lift others and break down barriers.
And that really speaks to my heart.
Their first episode aired inOctober 2020 and, we all know
how COVID 19 impacted the world.
(03:00):
I discovered their Wisecast only in 2022and found the conversations relatable,
honest, and capturing the zeitgeist, theemotions and thoughts from the point of
view of women scientists with care workresponsibilities on their way to become
professors or leaping into industries.
Being an underrepresented professormyself, as a woman, Asian in Germany,
(03:23):
and also a mom, in every episode,I have the feeling of eavesdropping
two role models in academia sharingvaluable insights and validating my
experiences in a very vulnerable way.
They are really the girlfriendsin academia you want to be around.
So, according to Feedspot, they rank 13thamong the 60 best women in STEM podcasts.
(03:49):
So it's not just me celebrating WISEcastand that's why I'm sharing this with you.
I've been working hard to get theirattention and to be invited into WISEcast
and I will link to our episode,Leaping Out of Science, from
November 22 in the show notes.
That really was an epiphany moment forme and they inspired me to create my own
(04:09):
podcast, the PostdocTransformation Showfor Scientists Leaping into Business.
So if you are grateful for this show,you really have to thank Richa and
Amber for inspiring me to do so.
So drum roll, without further ado, here'sthe second part of our conversation
reviewing Picture Scientist, a movie aboutprominent women in science who endured and
(04:31):
coped with systemic and intersectionallycompounding obstacles during their career.
This really is a mustwatch recommendation.
We just think it's okay.
Or it felt okay back then, butnow I would feel so awkward in
a boys club kind of situation.
(04:52):
Yeah, what you were describing remindedme, there was a lot more of that in
chemistry, I feel like, than whatyou might've gone through at BCM.
So yeah, all of that's just kind of comingback and I'm just kind of processing it.
Elli, what do you think?
Yeah, I studied psychology.
So that is women dominated,at least from the students.
But at the end of the day,the faculty is all male.
(05:16):
So, when I studied psychology as anundergraduate, there was only one postdoc
female and the rest of them, the wholefaculty from postdoc upwards was men.
And I remember one of the very oldprofessors to be called the Italian
stallion, because he obviously alwaystried to hit on the women students.
(05:38):
Never was sexually harassed like that.
At least I wouldn't call it like this.
But when I watched the movie, thenin hindsight, maybe it could have
been, but it wasn't at that time.
I felt ashamed.
I felt stupid.
I was like, hopefully no one knows,but I sexual harassment, it was
not the word that I had in mind.
(05:59):
What I would try to have with mydaughter is once she enters high school,
university, if she wants to enter, thento have a discussion on what are things
that could be interpreted differently,that would not occur to her brother.
That I don't want her brother to do.
(06:20):
I don't want anyone to do to her.
To him and whatever.
So I think that this openness ofyou've been through things, you've
seen things and you want to passthat on to the next generation.
So the next generation is at least alertedand knows how to behave differently and
(06:40):
to sort of like indicate that it's wrong.
And it doesn't take, I don't knowhow many years for, you know, Jane
Wellenbrink to bring that up justbecause her daughter says that she
wants to step into her footsteps.
Yeah.
So, I mean, how many womendid not have gotten help
since then,
Uh,
(07:02):
and I really do think thatIt is everywhere in the
male dominated industries.
groups or whatever.
It's also in business, but I wouldsay that I was working at Accenture.
I was working for different companies,the bigger companies, and they
all have a sexual harassment line.
So they had information from HR.
So, in preparation for our interview,now I research a little bit.
(07:26):
And there is actually a site fora German scientists who can say
that there is something like that.
I was never informed about that.
Yeah.
I I was surprised.
I mean, I'm a professor.
I should have known.
I've been in academia for manyyears, but I didn't see this.
And I will put that down in the shownotes as a link so that everyone
(07:48):
who is listening from Germanyat least knows it does happen.
You're not the first.
Maybe you are lucky, if nothing badhappened, but it's those microaggressions
that knack on your competency.
I'm really wondering how many ofthe PostdocTransformers who want to
leap into industries are actuallyleaping because they have been
(08:12):
fallen victim because of that.
They're maybe going away fromacademia because of that.
I'm emphasizing the future of workis not in academia, but instead
it's there and there and there.
I'm helping them to look forward.
But maybe I have closed myeyes in the sense of what is
deterring them away from academia.
So that really is an important episodefor me to think about future content
(08:36):
so that maybe I need to dovetailthat into future content as well.
And once you have determined yourreadiness to leap and want to transition
into business or industries, then youcan enroll in your free email course with
10 actionable, bingeable email lessonsuntil you start your job in business.
(08:59):
You'll get 10 emails like this.
Number 1.
How to leap out of science.
Number 2.
How to build yoursustainable LinkedIn profile.
Number 3.
How to read social media and network.
Number 4.
How to research yourfavorite jobs and employers.
Number 5.
How to do informationalinterviews to get insights.
Number 6.
(09:19):
How to create your customizedapplications with ChatGPT.
Number 7.
How to prepare your thesisfrom a business point of view.
8.
How to Apply to Your Favorite Employers 9.
How to Choose the Right Job Offer 10.
How to Prepare for Your New Job
(09:41):
And if we just kind of list some ofthe things from the documentary that
were considered these microaggressions,the stuff that's under the iceberg
or a submersion water, so thingsthat they brought up, mistaken for
a custodian, ignored in meetings,Inappropriate emails, treated like
a technician, not getting credit.
(10:02):
I'm looking at you, Amber,
, questioning competenceand family leave stigma.
Oh gosh.
And that just, when I was watchingthat, I was telling Amber yesterday,
I got emotional towards the end of themovie because I think that, I mean,
I'm guilty of like maybe suppressing,minimizing individual events.
(10:23):
And it's what Jane said, in thedocumentary, like time would pass.
It's not like continuouslythese things happen, right?
Like, so you might have days betweenor years or months between these
things, but they chip away at you.
They take up space, time, away from youbeing able to be productive in your career
(10:43):
and really just kind of the privilegethat Our male counterparts have where
they can just, not even think aboutthose things or deal with those things.
I have been accosted when I started offin my career, partially because I look
young, and petite, , like what are youdoing in here in the faculty lounge?
Like, you know, makingcopies of my exam, right?
I'm like, I'm faculty, you know,just because picture a scientist, I
(11:06):
may not look like it at that stage.
But yeah.
Amber, you were saying that you weren't
sure if you were feeling what?
Optimistic or just kind of,you know, downtrodden about
yeah, Yeah.
I mean, and to circle back, like, I thinkit was Dr Burks who was talking about her
email, basically the time it takes herto respond to emails to make sure she
(11:27):
has appropriately crafted the email andso that it's not too assertive, right?
Or she'll come off as angryand all of these things.
And I thought, I do I to this day, stilltake so much time when I craft my emails
and before I think I took a lot of timeand now I'm taking a lot of time to
almost undo some of the stuff that I haveingrained to minimize my ask, right?
(11:51):
Like I just wanted to know,I just wanted to follow up.
Like, no, I don't need to putthe just in there anymore.
I wanted to follow up with you to checkin on X and Y, so what is professional?
What's going to comeacross as unprofessional?
What's going to come across?
Like, I don't know what I'm talking about.
What's going to come across as I'm notbeing collaborative or when should I use
we, and when should I put i, and whenshould I, you do all these things and,
(12:13):
you know, it takes, it takes me a longtime for some of the emails that I have
to write when it's going to differentsorts of people or my boss's boss's boss.
Right.
And, and it's just, whenyou think about adding up.
Every time I sit down to writeone of those emails and even to a
colleague and even to, you know,whoever it's incredible, right?
(12:34):
And in terms of, it doesn't seemlike a big deal, but I could be
doing so much more than just thatemail and the amount of time it
takes me to craft a single email.
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And I also yesterday, too, on LinkedIn,saw this LinkedIn post about it was
almost like a little cartoon that said,if you don't understand privilege and
(13:59):
on one side of the picture, it hadsomeone running like hurdles, right?
And it was just, it was a guy,of course, like on the side, his
path was straight and he had maybethree or four hurdles, right?
On the other side, it was awoman and she had barbed wire.
She had alligators.
Hers was hilly, like she had allof this stuff that was in her way.
And the comment was like,well, it's the same distance.
(14:22):
Yeah.
And you're just like, uh, sure.
But like, obviously you just lookat it and you know, one of these is
an uphill battle, literally, right?
Like versus like, maybe Ihave to jump over or go eat.
And I think the hurdles wereeven kind of like offset.
So he didn't even haveto go over the hurdles.
He could have just likekind of ran around them.
I think now some of these conceptsare talked about more of these
(14:42):
graphics that are so like, easy tounderstand and to visualize and see
the concepts of equity versus equalityversus justice kind of things.
Where it's the apple tree, and it'slike, okay, so you both need ladders.
You have the same size ladders, but onone side of the tree, the limb is higher
up than the other side of the tree.
So even with the same size ladder,they can't even reach, right?
(15:05):
The, the apples to
pick.
So then what Equal
it's equal, right?
You both have the same ladder,like, you should be fine.
Right?
But it's not equality, right?
It's not equity.
It's not giving them the same accessto be able to do the same things.
And so I think a lot of theseconversations are being talked about it.
And, you know, these, these diagrams andcartoons that are so easy to understand
(15:27):
the concepts and the nuances between thedifferent terms and what they actually
mean is so important, but yeah, I finishedthe movie and I said, I don't know if I'm
feeling empowered or more discouraged.
And part of that is because, sure,things are getting better, we
just had equal payday, whatever,the middle of March, right?
Like, it's getting better.
(15:48):
Now it's the middle of Marchinstead of the end of the March,
but it's not moving fast enough.
Like, that line where the MIT facultywas the same for 50 years, right?
And now, okay.
I saw, and this is me beingcynical now, like, well, the
next year after this committee,they hired 50 percent more women.
And I said, so 50 percent of the 15.
So now we have 20, you know,25 women compared to 149.
(16:12):
Like, what does this 50, like, we cansay we hired 50 percent more women,
but was it 50 percent of the 17?
You're like, what doesthat number actually mean?
Is there now 50 women to the 150?
Is it 149 to a hundred?
Like what?
What is the actual representation?
Sure.
We hired more now.
We should feel good about ourselves,but it's still like nowhere
(16:33):
close to like what it should be.
Right.
And that doesn't even take intoaccount all of the different.
Like, caveats for people of color, right?
In general, at these prestigiousuniversities, we're just
taking away now, right?
Like, now at federally fundedplaces, you can't even talk about
all the different diversity.
You can't use the word diversityat some state institutions,
(16:54):
but federally, you have to talkabout diversity to get funding.
So, the fact that now there arethese different laws, Texas is
an interesting place to be whenit comes to some of these things.
And I don't know how much of thiswe can actually talk about, but it's
just like, I feel like some of thisstuff is going backwards, even though
we're making progress and thesethings we realize are important.
That's, I think why I feel like sure,we've come a long way and I'm very
(17:17):
proud to be where we are and thepeople who have laid the groundwork.
Behind us so that we could, Icould even get my PhD, right?
Like that was a thing that wasn't abig hurdle to jump through in terms
of even just getting into the programand finding a spot, like the whole
process is a hurdle for everyone.
That's like a whole nother story.
But, but those things werealready, you know, I wasn't the
first one to do these things.
(17:39):
But at the same time, it'sstill a quarter of women are
professionals in STEM fields, right?
Like, why is it just that many?
And so I feel like sure we're makingprogress, but it doesn't feel at their
rate that we should be making progress.
And now I feel like laws are changingto undo some of the progress.
And it's just, I don't know.
And then I think, arewe making a difference?
(18:00):
And I think we are, we're doing our part.
We are making a difference, butit just is like, I don't know.
I think that's why I feel defeatedbecause it feels like it should be better.
Right?
Then it is.
I don't know.
And I think you're right.
'cause it was Nancy Hopkins who broughtthat up too, that if she had to do it all
over again, would she . We're activiststoo, all three of us, we speak about
(18:22):
women in STEM , and all the obstaclesthat we face, and we try to empower women.
Look how much time ittakes up from our jobs.
I have an annual faculty evaluation due.
I'm sure my male colleagues aredone, but I'm being an activist also.
So watching the documentary, I'm takingtime away from just having that smooth
(18:42):
climb or that distance that you'retalking about in that graphic and I feel
this social responsibility to do this.
So I brought this up to my studentgroup, we were at the ACS conference the
last few days and, you know, the malestudents didn't get it, that there's
this leaky pipeline problem for women.
And one of the students said,wait, I heard that there were
(19:03):
more women , in college now.
So that's the stat that, he landedon, like, you know, how, how
is this a problem then, right.
For women and I was, and thenall the girls, mind you, there
are just 20 somethings, right.
So, but they, they're, you know,the couple of generations below
(19:23):
us and still They are experiencingall of the stuff too, right?
So they feel that in the classroom,they feel all of the microaggressions
in a different way, you know, on oneside, we're thankful for the women
that came before us, but I hearexactly what you're saying, Amber,
and I feel all of those feelings.
I'm, I do think it's two stepsforward, one step backwards.
(19:46):
NSF requires all that Title IX reporting.
Thank goodness that we're not, you know,so there are aspects of our government
and that's just government, right?
And, and, you know, there's aspects whereit's the, the steps backward, and then
there are aspects, thankfully, in science.
It's a human endeavor?
So there are all these folliesthat, that humans can make.
So it's not that it's going to becompletely objective, the process,
(20:09):
but more so than maybe other areas.
So I'm glad, you know, I'm trying todo the glasses half full thing and,
you know, the NSF having that, I didn'trealize that that didn't exist before.
So that was eye opening.
To me that, you know, we didn't havethis like checking in on if there have
been sexual harassment cases againstthose that they are granting funding to.
(20:32):
So, that's, that's aglass half full moment.
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Yeah, I'm actually looking at itfrom a more elevated perspective
, because I'm a professor forindustrial and occupational psychology.
And for some reason, I don'treally understand that most of
my students want to go to HR.
(22:03):
And I always tell them, be partof the solution, not the problem.
Okay.
You look at me being one ofthe very few female faculties.
I often ask them, do you haveanother female professor?
Do you have another femalelecturer or whatever?
And most of the times I'm the only one.
(22:24):
Let alone, I'm also theonly one person of color.
Okay, so it's intersectional.
Now I tell them, look, I'm sharingwith you that I'm a mom with two kids.
Both of them I breastfed duringthe times when I was lecturing.
My students, the ones who were privilegedto see me, they saw that I had to
(22:46):
breastfeed every two or three hours,so I had to make breaks and everything.
So, do you think that I'm capablelike my male counterparts?
Because if you do, then I want you to alsothink about when you promote people within
your community an organization withinthe company, when you promote people
from rank to another rank, I want you tolook at it from a gender bias as well.
(23:12):
Are you promoting only men, moremen, and why not the women as well?
Do they have to be higher performers?
Maybe they're caregiving and etc.
Can you change the type of jobs?
Can you make a different share ofremote jobs and remote activities?
(23:32):
Job sharing, top sharing, all the things.
I want you to understand that the wayyou see me is not just one example.
There could be many more.
I just happen to be privileged.
And to be lucky that I'm here.
I'm standing on the shouldersof giants and I want you to
understand that you are my students.
You should be part of the solution.
(23:53):
And I really do hope that I'm seedinga new generation of people who are from
an HR perspective in the power that theycan sort of like ask the managers, ask
the leaders, why do you want to promote?
Why is your shortlist only men?
and not women also.
And don't you think thatyou have enough men?
(24:14):
Do you think that a woman or a person ofcolor or from a diversity perspective that
you would have a different point of view?
A better picture maybe?
So I really do hope that I canmake a difference but for my own
daughter, I would not encourage herto go to science because of that.
(24:35):
She has a life.
And the energy that she has, sheshould, you know, invest into
something that is more promising.
I don't think that scienceacademia is changing.
It is changing at a slowerpace as compared to industries.
And industries has many more safetynets in the sense of there are more
(24:57):
positions, more companies, moreindustries, you know, there are many
more career options for someone who ismaybe having a nonlinear career track.
And I don't think that science willopen up that way within my lifetime.
And that's why I'm not encouragingmy kids to go into science.
(25:18):
But I try to have my own studentsto make it better in industry.
Yeah.
I feel like I'm going to watch thisdocumentary again and again and again
with our daughters growing up, evenmaybe just to See how things are
evolving and we'll have to have youback Ellie, because this, there's so
much still to, I feel like exploreand we're still processing everything.
(25:45):
Have you found this episodeso far helpful for yourself?
Well, maybe you can subscribe onYouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
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(26:05):
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And now, back to the show.
I really do want to point out some ofyour podcast episodes from Wisecast.
(26:29):
One is, episode four from season two,that is called Owning Your Identity.
That is a career pivotfrom academia to industry.
And I think that the identity of ascientist will also change after the
career transition, it also is liberatingbecause in industries, in companies,
(26:50):
you will see many more role models.
One woman is not just therole model for everyone.
And you need to have sort oflike a critical mass of people.
And that's why I thoughtthat this episode is great.
And then the other one that is even moreappropriate for this interview is really
women scientists identity interference,because there you were talking with
(27:13):
two or three scientists, also people ofcolor, also from different scientific
branches, and I really do think that thatwill sort of like shed more light into
the discussion, apart from the movie.
And I think that you had womenon your episode that were also
talking even more off the cuffand from a today's perspective.
(27:38):
So I would really encourage myown listeners to listen to these
two episodes from Wisecast.
Thank you, Elli.
Yeah, I mean, there's so much that we havedelved into with these microaggressions.
And I think, like you said, it's themore modern perspective because, we've
definitely made some strides gettingpast sexual harassment, the overt
kind , not saying that it's completelyeliminated or gone, but it's not, I
(28:02):
can't imagine a Nobel laureate walkinginto the lab and doing the things
that Crick did, in today's time.
But there's still work to be done.
And, I'd love to do like a viewingparty with some of the students
and have like kind of a multigenerational perspective on this.
So, yeah, we'd like to hear from ourlisteners too, if you've seen picture
a scientist or go and watch it.
(28:24):
We want to hear what your thoughts wereand how, if you're feeling despondent
or if you're feeling encouraged, we'dlike to know how you landed on this.
Wow, I feel that this twopart conversation will have
repercussions for all three of us.
In hindsight, I'm really gratefulfor everything that I have achieved.
(28:44):
And I try my best to bepart of the solution.
And did you know that we offerdeep dive e course workshops and
memberships at graduate schools,maybe also at yours in the future?
Ask your graduate school coordinator,whether they want to book my services
so that I can deliver them to you24 7, 365 on your mobile device.
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And even better, if you get us paid byyour grad school, we will pay you 50
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We can build aPostdocTransformation together.
Woohoo!
(29:34):
So, dear Postdoc Transformersand Wisecast listeners, Dr.
Richa Chandra, Dr.
Amber Miller, and I would reallyappreciate your feedback on the movie,
picture a scientist, whether youwill do a watch party with aspiring
scientists in your lab, because Ireally do think that you should do
this also with your male colleagues.
How our first and second part ofour conversation landed with you,
(29:58):
and you can share your storiesand tag us on Instagram, TikTok,
LinkedIn, we'll link to all of thesesocial handles in the show notes.
And of course, in the comment sectionof your favorite podcast players.
Do you want a transcript of our episode?
And our episode sponsors answersto all six bold questions so
(30:20):
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Do you want to nominate yourpotential employer of choice so that
we can ask them our bold questions?
For all of that, click on our links inour show notes and on our website, www.
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Remember to check your readinessto leap out of science and to
enroll in our free email courseCareer Transition Made Simple.
(30:42):
Thanks for your attention.
I'm Prof.
Dr.
Eleonore Soei Winkels, the host of yourseasonal PostdocTransformation Show.
Have you ever wondered how to makeyour grad school stand out in the
crowded landscape of academia?
Do you aim to attract the bestmaster's students from all over the
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I'm your host, Professor Dr.
Eleonore Soei Winkels, with myteam who is rooting for you.
And let's build yourPostdocTransformation with this episode.
Welcome, PostdocTransformers.
This is a very special episode becauseI'm collaborating now with WISEcast,
(01:09):
hosted by the wisest women, Dr.
Richa Chandra and Dr.
Amber Miller.
And you are now listening to thesecond part of our conversation around
picture a scientist, which meansthat if you haven't listened yet
to the first part in their WISECastpodcast, then click on this link below.
So that takes you directly totheir first episode of Picture
(01:31):
a Scientist, our conversation.
And then after that, I hope thatyou will be coming back to the
PostdocTransformation Show for thesecond part of this conversation.
Now, I assume you have alreadylistened to our first part in WISEcast.
Why am I so happy to be herecollaborating with WISEcast?
Well, WISEcast is the podcast forwomen in STEM in education and is
(01:57):
hosted by the wisest women, Dr.
Richa Chandra and Dr.
Amber Miller.
Dr.
Richa Chandra is a tenuredassociate professor, Chair of
chemistry at the University of St.
Thomas in Houston, Texas, US And Dr.
Amber Miller is a researchscientist at Bethyl Laboratories
in Montgomery, Texas, US.
(02:17):
is an organization bringing equityand STEM by empowering women
through real conversations and theybring awareness to the challenges
women face in STEM and education.
I'm opening brackets here.
I really do think that they alsospeak especially to moms and people
of color, because it's not just agender thing, it's intersectional.
(02:38):
To turn these challenges intoopportunities, they inspire others
to find their place in STEM, buildtheir tribe by making meaningful
connections, and develop their voiceto lift others and break down barriers.
And that really speaks to my heart.
Their first episode aired inOctober 2020 and, we all know
how COVID 19 impacted the world.
(03:00):
I discovered their Wisecast only in 2022and found the conversations relatable,
honest, and capturing the zeitgeist, theemotions and thoughts from the point of
view of women scientists with care workresponsibilities on their way to become
professors or leaping into industries.
Being an underrepresented professormyself, as a woman, Asian in Germany,
(03:23):
and also a mom, in every episode,I have the feeling of eavesdropping
two role models in academia sharingvaluable insights and validating my
experiences in a very vulnerable way.
They are really the girlfriendsin academia you want to be around.
So, according to Feedspot, they rank 13thamong the 60 best women in STEM podcasts.
(03:49):
So it's not just me celebrating WISEcastand that's why I'm sharing this with you.
I've been working hard to get theirattention and to be invited into WISEcast
and I will link to our episode,Leaping Out of Science, from
November 22 in the show notes.
That really was an epiphany moment forme and they inspired me to create my own
(04:09):
podcast, the PostdocTransformation Showfor Scientists Leaping into Business.
So if you are grateful for this show,you really have to thank Richa and
Amber for inspiring me to do so.
So drum roll, without further ado, here'sthe second part of our conversation
reviewing Picture Scientist, a movie aboutprominent women in science who endured and
(04:31):
coped with systemic and intersectionallycompounding obstacles during their career.
This really is a mustwatch recommendation.
We just think it's okay.
Or it felt okay back then, butnow I would feel so awkward in
a boys club kind of situation.
(04:52):
Yeah, what you were describing remindedme, there was a lot more of that in
chemistry, I feel like, than whatyou might've gone through at BCM.
So yeah, all of that's just kind of comingback and I'm just kind of processing it.
Elli, what do you think?
Yeah, I studied psychology.
So that is women dominated,at least from the students.
But at the end of the day,the faculty is all male.
(05:16):
So, when I studied psychology as anundergraduate, there was only one postdoc
female and the rest of them, the wholefaculty from postdoc upwards was men.
And I remember one of the very oldprofessors to be called the Italian
stallion, because he obviously alwaystried to hit on the women students.
(05:38):
Never was sexually harassed like that.
At least I wouldn't call it like this.
But when I watched the movie, thenin hindsight, maybe it could have
been, but it wasn't at that time.
I felt ashamed.
I felt stupid.
I was like, hopefully no one knows,but I sexual harassment, it was
not the word that I had in mind.
(05:59):
What I would try to have with mydaughter is once she enters high school,
university, if she wants to enter, thento have a discussion on what are things
that could be interpreted differently,that would not occur to her brother.
That I don't want her brother to do.
(06:20):
I don't want anyone to do to her.
To him and whatever.
So I think that this openness ofyou've been through things, you've
seen things and you want to passthat on to the next generation.
So the next generation is at least alertedand knows how to behave differently and
(06:40):
to sort of like indicate that it's wrong.
And it doesn't take, I don't knowhow many years for, you know, Jane
Wellenbrink to bring that up justbecause her daughter says that she
wants to step into her footsteps.
Yeah.
So, I mean, how many womendid not have gotten help
since then,
Uh,
(07:02):
and I really do think thatIt is everywhere in the
male dominated industries.
groups or whatever.
It's also in business, but I wouldsay that I was working at Accenture.
I was working for different companies,the bigger companies, and they
all have a sexual harassment line.
So they had information from HR.
So, in preparation for our interview,now I research a little bit.
(07:26):
And there is actually a site fora German scientists who can say
that there is something like that.
I was never informed about that.
Yeah.
I I was surprised.
I mean, I'm a professor.
I should have known.
I've been in academia for manyyears, but I didn't see this.
And I will put that down in the shownotes as a link so that everyone
(07:48):
who is listening from Germanyat least knows it does happen.
You're not the first.
Maybe you are lucky, if nothing badhappened, but it's those microaggressions
that knack on your competency.
I'm really wondering how many ofthe PostdocTransformers who want to
leap into industries are actuallyleaping because they have been
(08:12):
fallen victim because of that.
They're maybe going away fromacademia because of that.
I'm emphasizing the future of workis not in academia, but instead
it's there and there and there.
I'm helping them to look forward.
But maybe I have closed myeyes in the sense of what is
deterring them away from academia.
So that really is an important episodefor me to think about future content
(08:36):
so that maybe I need to dovetailthat into future content as well.
And once you have determined yourreadiness to leap and want to transition
into business or industries, then youcan enroll in your free email course with
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(09:41):
And if we just kind of list some ofthe things from the documentary that
were considered these microaggressions,the stuff that's under the iceberg
or a submersion water, so thingsthat they brought up, mistaken for
a custodian, ignored in meetings,Inappropriate emails, treated like
a technician, not getting credit.
(10:02):
I'm looking at you, Amber,
, questioning competenceand family leave stigma.
Oh gosh.
And that just, when I was watchingthat, I was telling Amber yesterday,
I got emotional towards the end of themovie because I think that, I mean,
I'm guilty of like maybe suppressing,minimizing individual events.
(10:23):
And it's what Jane said, in thedocumentary, like time would pass.
It's not like continuouslythese things happen, right?
Like, so you might have days betweenor years or months between these
things, but they chip away at you.
They take up space, time, away from youbeing able to be productive in your career
(10:43):
and really just kind of the privilegethat Our male counterparts have where
they can just, not even think aboutthose things or deal with those things.
I have been accosted when I started offin my career, partially because I look
young, and petite, , like what are youdoing in here in the faculty lounge?
Like, you know, makingcopies of my exam, right?
I'm like, I'm faculty, you know,just because picture a scientist, I
(11:06):
may not look like it at that stage.
But yeah.
Amber, you were saying that you weren't
sure if you were feeling what?
Optimistic or just kind of,you know, downtrodden about
yeah, Yeah.
I mean, and to circle back, like, I thinkit was Dr Burks who was talking about her
email, basically the time it takes herto respond to emails to make sure she
(11:27):
has appropriately crafted the email andso that it's not too assertive, right?
Or she'll come off as angryand all of these things.
And I thought, I do I to this day, stilltake so much time when I craft my emails
and before I think I took a lot of timeand now I'm taking a lot of time to
almost undo some of the stuff that I haveingrained to minimize my ask, right?
(11:51):
Like I just wanted to know,I just wanted to follow up.
Like, no, I don't need to putthe just in there anymore.
I wanted to follow up with you to checkin on X and Y, so what is professional?
What's going to comeacross as unprofessional?
What's going to come across?
Like, I don't know what I'm talking about.
What's going to come across as I'm notbeing collaborative or when should I use
we, and when should I put i, and whenshould I, you do all these things and,
(12:13):
you know, it takes, it takes me a longtime for some of the emails that I have
to write when it's going to differentsorts of people or my boss's boss's boss.
Right.
And, and it's just, whenyou think about adding up.
Every time I sit down to writeone of those emails and even to a
colleague and even to, you know,whoever it's incredible, right?
(12:34):
And in terms of, it doesn't seemlike a big deal, but I could be
doing so much more than just thatemail and the amount of time it
takes me to craft a single email.
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And I also yesterday, too, on LinkedIn,saw this LinkedIn post about it was
almost like a little cartoon that said,if you don't understand privilege and
(13:59):
on one side of the picture, it hadsomeone running like hurdles, right?
And it was just, it was a guy,of course, like on the side, his
path was straight and he had maybethree or four hurdles, right?
On the other side, it was awoman and she had barbed wire.
She had alligators.
Hers was hilly, like she had allof this stuff that was in her way.
And the comment was like,well, it's the same distance.
(14:22):
Yeah.
And you're just like, uh, sure.
But like, obviously you just lookat it and you know, one of these is
an uphill battle, literally, right?
Like versus like, maybe Ihave to jump over or go eat.
And I think the hurdles wereeven kind of like offset.
So he didn't even haveto go over the hurdles.
He could have just likekind of ran around them.
I think now some of these conceptsare talked about more of these
(14:42):
graphics that are so like, easy tounderstand and to visualize and see
the concepts of equity versus equalityversus justice kind of things.
Where it's the apple tree, and it'slike, okay, so you both need ladders.
You have the same size ladders, but onone side of the tree, the limb is higher
up than the other side of the tree.
So even with the same size ladder,they can't even reach, right?
(15:05):
The, the apples to
pick.
So then what Equal
it's equal, right?
You both have the same ladder,like, you should be fine.
Right?
But it's not equality, right?
It's not equity.
It's not giving them the same accessto be able to do the same things.
And so I think a lot of theseconversations are being talked about it.
And, you know, these, these diagrams andcartoons that are so easy to understand
(15:27):
the concepts and the nuances between thedifferent terms and what they actually
mean is so important, but yeah, I finishedthe movie and I said, I don't know if I'm
feeling empowered or more discouraged.
And part of that is because, sure,things are getting better, we
just had equal payday, whatever,the middle of March, right?
Like, it's getting better.
(15:48):
Now it's the middle of Marchinstead of the end of the March,
but it's not moving fast enough.
Like, that line where the MIT facultywas the same for 50 years, right?
And now, okay.
I saw, and this is me beingcynical now, like, well, the
next year after this committee,they hired 50 percent more women.
And I said, so 50 percent of the 15.
So now we have 20, you know,25 women compared to 149.
(16:12):
Like, what does this 50, like, we cansay we hired 50 percent more women,
but was it 50 percent of the 17?
You're like, what doesthat number actually mean?
Is there now 50 women to the 150?
Is it 149 to a hundred?
Like what?
What is the actual representation?
Sure.
We hired more now.
We should feel good about ourselves,but it's still like nowhere
(16:33):
close to like what it should be.
Right.
And that doesn't even take intoaccount all of the different.
Like, caveats for people of color, right?
In general, at these prestigiousuniversities, we're just
taking away now, right?
Like, now at federally fundedplaces, you can't even talk about
all the different diversity.
You can't use the word diversityat some state institutions,
(16:54):
but federally, you have to talkabout diversity to get funding.
So, the fact that now there arethese different laws, Texas is
an interesting place to be whenit comes to some of these things.
And I don't know how much of thiswe can actually talk about, but it's
just like, I feel like some of thisstuff is going backwards, even though
we're making progress and thesethings we realize are important.
That's, I think why I feel like sure,we've come a long way and I'm very
(17:17):
proud to be where we are and thepeople who have laid the groundwork.
Behind us so that we could, Icould even get my PhD, right?
Like that was a thing that wasn't abig hurdle to jump through in terms
of even just getting into the programand finding a spot, like the whole
process is a hurdle for everyone.
That's like a whole nother story.
But, but those things werealready, you know, I wasn't the
first one to do these things.
(17:39):
But at the same time, it'sstill a quarter of women are
professionals in STEM fields, right?
Like, why is it just that many?
And so I feel like sure we're makingprogress, but it doesn't feel at their
rate that we should be making progress.
And now I feel like laws are changingto undo some of the progress.
And it's just, I don't know.
And then I think, arewe making a difference?
(18:00):
And I think we are, we're doing our part.
We are making a difference, butit just is like, I don't know.
I think that's why I feel defeatedbecause it feels like it should be better.
Right?
Then it is.
I don't know.
And I think you're right.
'cause it was Nancy Hopkins who broughtthat up too, that if she had to do it all
over again, would she . We're activiststoo, all three of us, we speak about
(18:22):
women in STEM , and all the obstaclesthat we face, and we try to empower women.
Look how much time ittakes up from our jobs.
I have an annual faculty evaluation due.
I'm sure my male colleagues aredone, but I'm being an activist also.
So watching the documentary, I'm takingtime away from just having that smooth
(18:42):
climb or that distance that you'retalking about in that graphic and I feel
this social responsibility to do this.
So I brought this up to my studentgroup, we were at the ACS conference the
last few days and, you know, the malestudents didn't get it, that there's
this leaky pipeline problem for women.
And one of the students said,wait, I heard that there were
(19:03):
more women , in college now.
So that's the stat that, he landedon, like, you know, how, how
is this a problem then, right.
For women and I was, and thenall the girls, mind you, there
are just 20 somethings, right.
So, but they, they're, you know,the couple of generations below
(19:23):
us and still They are experiencingall of the stuff too, right?
So they feel that in the classroom,they feel all of the microaggressions
in a different way, you know, on oneside, we're thankful for the women
that came before us, but I hearexactly what you're saying, Amber,
and I feel all of those feelings.
I'm, I do think it's two stepsforward, one step backwards.
(19:46):
NSF requires all that Title IX reporting.
Thank goodness that we're not, you know,so there are aspects of our government
and that's just government, right?
And, and, you know, there's aspects whereit's the, the steps backward, and then
there are aspects, thankfully, in science.
It's a human endeavor?
So there are all these folliesthat, that humans can make.
So it's not that it's going to becompletely objective, the process,
(20:09):
but more so than maybe other areas.
So I'm glad, you know, I'm trying todo the glasses half full thing and,
you know, the NSF having that, I didn'trealize that that didn't exist before.
So that was eye opening.
To me that, you know, we didn't havethis like checking in on if there have
been sexual harassment cases againstthose that they are granting funding to.
(20:32):
So, that's, that's aglass half full moment.
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Yeah, I'm actually looking at itfrom a more elevated perspective
, because I'm a professor forindustrial and occupational psychology.
And for some reason, I don'treally understand that most of
my students want to go to HR.
(22:03):
And I always tell them, be partof the solution, not the problem.
Okay.
You look at me being one ofthe very few female faculties.
I often ask them, do you haveanother female professor?
Do you have another femalelecturer or whatever?
And most of the times I'm the only one.
(22:24):
Let alone, I'm also theonly one person of color.
Okay, so it's intersectional.
Now I tell them, look, I'm sharingwith you that I'm a mom with two kids.
Both of them I breastfed duringthe times when I was lecturing.
My students, the ones who were privilegedto see me, they saw that I had to
(22:46):
breastfeed every two or three hours,so I had to make breaks and everything.
So, do you think that I'm capablelike my male counterparts?
Because if you do, then I want you to alsothink about when you promote people within
your community an organization withinthe company, when you promote people
from rank to another rank, I want you tolook at it from a gender bias as well.
(23:12):
Are you promoting only men, moremen, and why not the women as well?
Do they have to be higher performers?
Maybe they're caregiving and etc.
Can you change the type of jobs?
Can you make a different share ofremote jobs and remote activities?
(23:32):
Job sharing, top sharing, all the things.
I want you to understand that the wayyou see me is not just one example.
There could be many more.
I just happen to be privileged.
And to be lucky that I'm here.
I'm standing on the shouldersof giants and I want you to
understand that you are my students.
You should be part of the solution.
(23:53):
And I really do hope that I'm seedinga new generation of people who are from
an HR perspective in the power that theycan sort of like ask the managers, ask
the leaders, why do you want to promote?
Why is your shortlist only men?
and not women also.
And don't you think thatyou have enough men?
(24:14):
Do you think that a woman or a person ofcolor or from a diversity perspective that
you would have a different point of view?
A better picture maybe?
So I really do hope that I canmake a difference but for my own
daughter, I would not encourage herto go to science because of that.
(24:35):
She has a life.
And the energy that she has, sheshould, you know, invest into
something that is more promising.
I don't think that scienceacademia is changing.
It is changing at a slowerpace as compared to industries.
And industries has many more safetynets in the sense of there are more
(24:57):
positions, more companies, moreindustries, you know, there are many
more career options for someone who ismaybe having a nonlinear career track.
And I don't think that science willopen up that way within my lifetime.
And that's why I'm not encouragingmy kids to go into science.
(25:18):
But I try to have my own studentsto make it better in industry.
Yeah.
I feel like I'm going to watch thisdocumentary again and again and again
with our daughters growing up, evenmaybe just to See how things are
evolving and we'll have to have youback Ellie, because this, there's so
much still to, I feel like exploreand we're still processing everything.
(25:45):
Have you found this episodeso far helpful for yourself?
Well, maybe you can subscribe onYouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
Podbean, or wherever you get our show.
And also share this episode with yourPhD bestie because that would encourage
us to help the underprivileged,underrepresented, and underserved early
career scientists leaping into business.
(26:05):
This would also ensure that youdon't miss a future episode.
Also, Our subscription and listeningnumbers are key for finding the
right sponsors for our show sothat we can help you for free.
And now, back to the show.
I really do want to point out some ofyour podcast episodes from Wisecast.
(26:29):
One is, episode four from season two,that is called Owning Your Identity.
That is a career pivotfrom academia to industry.
And I think that the identity of ascientist will also change after the
career transition, it also is liberatingbecause in industries, in companies,
(26:50):
you will see many more role models.
One woman is not just therole model for everyone.
And you need to have sort oflike a critical mass of people.
And that's why I thoughtthat this episode is great.
And then the other one that is even moreappropriate for this interview is really
women scientists identity interference,because there you were talking with
(27:13):
two or three scientists, also people ofcolor, also from different scientific
branches, and I really do think that thatwill sort of like shed more light into
the discussion, apart from the movie.
And I think that you had womenon your episode that were also
talking even more off the cuffand from a today's perspective.
(27:38):
So I would really encourage myown listeners to listen to these
two episodes from Wisecast.
Thank you, Elli.
Yeah, I mean, there's so much that we havedelved into with these microaggressions.
And I think, like you said, it's themore modern perspective because, we've
definitely made some strides gettingpast sexual harassment, the overt
kind , not saying that it's completelyeliminated or gone, but it's not, I
(28:02):
can't imagine a Nobel laureate walkinginto the lab and doing the things
that Crick did, in today's time.
But there's still work to be done.
And, I'd love to do like a viewingparty with some of the students
and have like kind of a multigenerational perspective on this.
So, yeah, we'd like to hear from ourlisteners too, if you've seen picture
a scientist or go and watch it.
(28:24):
We want to hear what your thoughts wereand how, if you're feeling despondent
or if you're feeling encouraged, we'dlike to know how you landed on this.
Wow, I feel that this twopart conversation will have
repercussions for all three of us.
In hindsight, I'm really gratefulfor everything that I have achieved.
(28:44):
And I try my best to bepart of the solution.
And did you know that we offerdeep dive e course workshops and
memberships at graduate schools,maybe also at yours in the future?
Ask your graduate school coordinator,whether they want to book my services
so that I can deliver them to you24 7, 365 on your mobile device.
(29:10):
And even better, if you get us paid byyour grad school, we will pay you 50
percent recurring sales commissions.
So, you will earn money with us aswe help you and your PhD besties
to transition into business.
We can build aPostdocTransformation together.
Woohoo!
(29:34):
So, dear Postdoc Transformersand Wisecast listeners, Dr.
Richa Chandra, Dr.
Amber Miller, and I would reallyappreciate your feedback on the movie,
picture a scientist, whether youwill do a watch party with aspiring
scientists in your lab, because Ireally do think that you should do
this also with your male colleagues.
How our first and second part ofour conversation landed with you,
(29:58):
and you can share your storiesand tag us on Instagram, TikTok,
LinkedIn, we'll link to all of thesesocial handles in the show notes.
And of course, in the comment sectionof your favorite podcast players.
Do you want a transcript of our episode?
And our episode sponsors answersto all six bold questions so
(30:20):
that you can choose to apply.
Do you want to nominate yourpotential employer of choice so that
we can ask them our bold questions?
For all of that, click on our links inour show notes and on our website, www.
postdoctransformation.
com.
Remember to check your readinessto leap out of science and to
enroll in our free email courseCareer Transition Made Simple.
(30:42):
Thanks for your attention.
I'm Prof.
Dr.
Eleonore Soei Winkels, the host of yourseasonal PostdocTransformation Show.
Have you ever wondered how to makeyour grad school stand out in the
crowded landscape of academia?
Do you aim to attract the bestmaster's students from all over the
world to learn from and work with yourprofessors so that your research remains
(31:04):
globally recognized and well funded?
Do you wish to repel bad applicationswhich aren't tailored towards your
grad school's research profile?
Now, let's talk about a powerfulbranding tool, podcasts.
They're a game changer forhigher education institutions.
As a professor, active on TikTok,Instagram, LinkedIn, and a podcast
host and producer of this PostdocTransformation Show, I'm here to
(31:28):
encourage all the graduate schoolrepresentatives to think beyond the
conventional marketing mechanism.
Instead of being one of many vendors,At a time limited grad school fair, why
not create a podcast that showcases yourgrad school as the ultimate destination
for the world's best masters students.
(31:48):
Share inspiring and encouragingstories of your top PhD students, high
profile alumni, your best friends.
Your faculty and the incredibleopportunities your grad school offers.
A podcast can be a window intoyour school's vibrant community.
It's cutting edge research andunique experiences, and in times of
AI generated marketing material, apodcast with your academic leaders.
(32:12):
in real life is a very humanand innovative way to attract
prospective PhD students.
You can inform them every day,everywhere, not just during the typical
grad school application seasons.
This would prepare your bestcandidates for the application.
Even better, you can supportand make your current Ph.
(32:33):
D.
students and postdocs visible for theirnext career steps in academia or business.
Remember, successful graduateselevate your grad school's reputation.
So, if you are a universitychancellor, grad school dean,
speaker, professor, Consider this.
By launching a podcast for your gradschool, you can elevate your grad
(32:56):
school's brand and tell aspiringscientists and employers what makes
your grad school the best choice,with scalable, evergreen content.
If you're interested, watch this video.
Forward this to your marketingrepresentative and get our list of
30 sample episode titles customizablefor your grad school podcast.
(33:16):
And just enter an emailaddress on my website, www.
postdoctransformation.
com as linked in the show notes.
As a seasoned professor and podcaster,I'm also happy to strategize about
how you can launch your grad schoolpodcast on Podbean, the podcast
hosting platform we use for thePostdocTransformation Show, supporting
(33:39):
scientists leaping into business.
Postdoc Transformation
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