Anti-Blackness at HSIs

In the first episode of season 3 of ¿Qué pasa, HSIs? I talk to Dr. Whitney Pirtle, Associate Professor of Sociology and McArthur Foundation Chair in International Justice and Human Rights at the University of California, Merced, where she also directs the Sociology of Health and Equity (SHE) Lab. As a formative critical race scholar, her research explores issues relating to race, identity, inequality, health equity, and Black feminist praxis. Her latest work includes writing on Covid-19 pandemic inequities and institutional anti-Blackness. In this episode we talk about her experiences as 1 of 5 Black tenure track faculty members at an HSI and about how she stepped into research about anti-Blackness within HSI spaces. While Dr. Pirtle describes ways that we can acknowledge and disrupt anti-Blackness in HSIs, she also tells her story about how she has mentored Black students and protected them from anti-Blackness, while also thriving as a critical scholar and teacher who centers race and raced students in her classroom. In this episode Dr. Pirtle asks, “what’s good, HSIs?”

 

Guest: Whitney Pirtle (she/her), Associate Professor of Sociology, University of California, Merced

Social Media: Twitter: @thephdandme | Instagram: @whitneypirtle_thephdandme

Website: https://sites.google.com/view/whitney-pirtle-phd/home

APA Citation: 

Garcia, G.A. (Host). (2023, September 10). Anti-Blackness at HSIs. (No.301) [Audio podcast episode]. In ¿Qué pasa, HSIs?. https://www.ginaanngarcia.com/podcast/301

 

Show Notes 

• Pirtle, W. N., Brock, B., Aldonza, N., Leke, K., & Edge, D. (2021). “I didn’t even know what anti-Blackness was until I got here:” The unmet needs of Black students at Hispanic-Serving Institutions. Urban Education. Online first https://doi.org/10.1177/00420859211044948
• Pirtle, W. N. L. (2020). Racial capitalism: A fundamental cause of novel coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic inequities in the United States. Health Education & Behavior, 47(4), 504-508. https://doi.org/10.1177/1090198120922942

Episode Transcript

(00:11):
Welcome to HS ISA podcast dedicated to everything Hispanic serving institutions.
I'm your host,
Doctor Regina and Garcia,
bringing you the news on what's happening in H SI S.
Join us as we explore the history and evolution of H SI S culturally relevant and laboratory practices,
current and emerging research with H SI S and the policies that shape serving this familia.

(00:42):
And welcome to the show today,
we are talking to Doctor Whitney Purtle,
Associate Professor of Sociology and Macarthur Foundation Chair in International Justice and Human Rights at the University of California Merced.
Welcome Doctor Purtle to H SI S where we talk about all things H SI S.
But first we jump in and we want to learn about you.

(01:04):
So start us off by just telling us a little bit about you and,
and your how you a journey.
How did you get to be an associate professor?
What was the path to,
to associate professor?
Thank you so much for having me here today.
I'm excited to get into this conversation.
Oh,
where can I start?
I grew up in East Lansing,
Michigan,

(01:25):
which is a college town.
So Michigan State University was sort of in our um backyard.
My experience was a little bit different than a lot of the folks in the area though,
my parents had both dropped out of college uh at MS U.
And so I lived in subsidized housing was raised primarily by my mother,

(01:46):
uh but exposed to a college experience just by being in a college town.
And so I think early on that drove a lot for me and,
and wanting to know more,
wanting to,
you know,
understand more about how institutions worked and how I could get access to that.
So that was a big driving force for me.
I ended up going to Grand Valley State University,

(02:09):
which is on the west side of Michigan.
This is before proposal two hit Michigan and they did have huge diversity recruitment efforts uh which I benefited from.
I think I'm a product of how successful those things can be because if you um met the merit requirements had a strong GPA which I did I was very involved in school.

(02:33):
Uh And if I applied and got in,
I could get some tuition funding.
And so that ended up being the only institution I could afford to go to.
And that's where I went.
It wasn't necessarily my first choice by any means,
but it was the choice that got me to where I am today.
And I'm very thankful for that.
I remember by the time I was graduating,

(02:56):
I was among a group of students who were trying to protest to save sort of the affirmative action stipulations that were happening in Michigan and were unsuccessful.
So it's just interesting to reflect on that,
especially today after the,
what's been happening with the Supreme Court.
Um Once I was at Grand Valley State University,
which is a primarily white institution and I would say the diversity has gone down since um since the ban has occurred in Michigan.

(03:23):
Uh but it was,
it was quite evident to me that it didn't serve students of color in a way that we felt we might be best served.
So I was very proactive on campus,
um trying to sort of do that work among my peers.
Um but also some way,
some where along the way found sociology as my disciplinary home and decided I wanted to go to grad school.

(03:49):
I was a mcnair scholar and that was very beneficial for me and I applied to a bunch of graduate programs and ended up going to Vanderbilt University,
which is a primarily white institution in the South.
Um That also was a very different experience for me for being low income like first gen um you know,

(04:12):
I had a primarily white institution uh for undergrad,
but we weren't elite.
There wasn't a lot of people with money,
it was still,
you know,
somewhat of a commuter college it was growing.
Um And so going to Vanderbilt was a whole new world for me being at a private institution,
especially in the South where they have a lot of old money.
So that was a very fascinating experience.

(04:32):
Um Again,
I could see the ways in which the institution might have failed students of color and also how class really interacted to shape those experiences.
Um And so I obtained my phd from Vanderbilt,
I was applying for jobs and I learned about this university called UC Merced.

(04:52):
It is the newest UC um and the newest research institution really in the United States.
And so no one knew a lot about got it,
but they were hiring and I was excited to see what this campus was about.
So I've been on faculty since 2014 and it has been such a learning experience um because it is quite different than both of the institutions I have had experience with.

(05:18):
Um It,
yeah,
our students are primarily students of color.
I would say almost 90% students of color.
It is uh H SI and it is a H SI in a different way than a lot of other H SI S.
And that as it was started,
it could have had H SI designation.
It always has served a lot of Hispanic Latinx students.

(05:40):
Um And it also serves a lot of students who have pell grant funding like I did when I was an undergrad,
who are first generation um who are trying to navigate college without a lot of resources.
So it has been a really wonderful place for me to be at.
I really do resonate and connect with a lot of the students.

(06:00):
Um It has been a big learning journey too because I hadn't had experience in H SI and being some place in California and being at a new institution and having things like being created on the daily basis.
Uh So it is a really hands on,
get in there and do the work and try to create this university that we might want to be in.

(06:22):
Wow,
you're right,
three very different institutions and you,
you,
you described them like a,
like a higher ed scholar,
like you distinguish the differences um between them in really powerful important ways.
Um And thank you for bringing in the affirmative action context too,
right?
Because that is such an important conversation happening right now.

(06:43):
And we know that when affirmative action is um banned,
it affects the number of students of color who enter colleges,
universities.
It's,
it's been proven in Michigan,
it's been proven in Michigan and in California and we've seen it.
Yeah,
in both of your uh states or what,
two of your at least states,
right?
Of that.
You've been in higher ed.
So,

(07:03):
so yeah,
you started getting into this idea of H SI uh So tell us a little bit about that or we call the serving this journey here on H SI S like,
how did you come to know H SI.
Well,
I feel like it is hard to be at a place like you see me and not have that terminology in your face,

(07:25):
you know.
So even um right away coming to the institution being in different meetings,
maybe even orientation where you have uh folks talking about all sorts of things,
you know,
how to deal with students,
how to submit reimbursements,
also how to apply it to grants,
which we know that's one way that they like to really discuss the H SI status in terms of collecting money.

(07:49):
And so I think early on,
we were told,
you know,
that this,
this was a H SI,
but I think it was less clear what that would actually mean for us.
Um and mean for me as a faculty member here.
Um And so I think that it was a bit of a journey I,
you know,
was curious about what the H SI designation meant.

(08:12):
It is true that the number of students in my classrooms,
especially in the social sciences are majority Latin and I would say majority Latina.
And so it was very evident to me in that this is a particular student population and one that I hadn't had a ton of experience with being in West Michigan and um Nashville,

(08:32):
Tennessee.
And so in terms of the classroom,
it was a bit of a jolt,
I would say an exciting jolt to really as a race scholar as a critical race scholar to try to think about if I'm teaching these topics of race um and equity and justice and theorizing,
I really need to get beyond the black white binary that I think was somewhat uh not confronted in the other institutions as much,

(09:00):
just because it wasn't the framework in which we were reading and it wasn't,
the student population really hadn't um expanded in that way.
And so I still think of,
you know,
race theory come helping us theorize white supremacy and anti blackness.
But at least in the classroom,
I had to think through other instances of racial organization and experiences and um other intersections that impact our students like legality.

(09:26):
And so it really did shift sort of my approach to teaching and thinking uh in terms of critical race theory more broadly.
But I would say another part of that journey I think is being one of the very few black faculty members on campus and having black students often coming to me and asking for support in various ways and,

(09:48):
and wondering,
you know,
seeing that sort of juxtaposition or maybe even conflict and that this is a minority serving institution.
And um we are still like minor in a particular way and how can we try to rectify those that,
that area of conflict?

(10:08):
So I think,
I guess to answer your question a little bit um better is that being at A H SI has shaped Yes,
my professional experience both in how I think about race and racism,
how I teach about race and racism,
but how I interact as sort of um an agent within the institution.

(10:33):
Yes,
you've said so many things that I'm like,
oh my gosh,
you probably could have a whole research agenda just on multiple things you just said,
right?
Like,
including the fact that when you're talking about uh Latino,
Latinx,
Hispanic,
it's not actually a race,
right?
And that,
that gets complicated because then we,
you know,
sort of call it a broad race.

(10:53):
Um So how does critical race theory come into play even NHS I?
Right.
And deconstructing the level of anti blackness in the Latinx community which we're gonna get into.
Um there,
there's so many layers,
right?
So even just being a,
a race scholar with H SI.
Um So,
yeah,
let,
let's talk about it.
You're a critical race scholar with research exploring issues relating to race,

(11:16):
identity,
inequality,
health equity,
and black feminist practice.
Your latest work includes writing on COVID-19 pandemic inequities and institutional anti-black.
So your research on anti blackness is especially pertinent to our listeners as you are writing about Anti Blackness within the context of H SI S I've read and cited and discussed in public lectures.

(11:38):
Your article called,
I didn't even know what anti-black was until I got here.
The unmet needs of black students at Hispanic serving institutions published in Urban Education.
So let's talk about it because it is,
it is a super relevant talk uh topic.
So first let's just talk about what is anti blackness.
How are you defining it?

(11:59):
Hm.
Yes.
Yeah.
Anti blackness to me and my engagement with,
you know,
other scholars who are writing about this is um I would say a particular racial ideology that frames both the black experience and the treatment of blacks in the United States or globally.

(12:24):
the anti blackness is global.
But I'm thinking,
I guess in particular about the United States and then also in terms of institutions.
And so it is sort of a theoretical framework.
I see it almost as another flip of the coin to white supremacy.
So we know that white supremacy situates whiteness as um as supreme and therefore allocates resources to,

(12:48):
to that category at a disproportionate rate.
Anti blackness,
I think um because of the ways that race has been formed,
especially in the United States,
sort of sits at the other end of that binary.
So if you have white supremacy as thinking of whiteness as pure and good and supreme and should therefore have all these things and power to dictate the rules.

(13:11):
Anti blackness is at the other end and situates blackness as,
as,
as subjugated,
as disadvantaged,
as dirty as negative and,
and therefore shapes experiences of harm,
um discrimination,
alienation and,
and things of that nature.
Um And so when I'm thinking about anti blackness,

(13:34):
I am thinking about those ideologies that allows that to be upheld,
even when they're not sort of front of mind,
it just they become embedded within our ideas.
Um also our institutions and our everyday experiences.
So,
anti-black is both institutional and that it shapes resources,

(13:55):
um organizations,
but it's,
it's personal too and that it is,
it's a felt experience often and,
and it's hard to describe.
Uh but black people understand it,
I guess is,
is one way I might,
I might try to define anti blackness that's important,

(14:15):
right?
Like because the the idea of disputing that like it's not anti blackness or like we,
we just know,
right?
Like there is a a just a knowing.
So thank you for that.
And the extreme opposite of,
of white supremacy.
Wow,
that's a powerful way to think about it.
So you in the article talk about um and how the,
how anti-black shows up in H SI S in three levels which I really loved.

(14:40):
I,
I like as someone who thinks about it,
like in that sort of way and thinks in these organizational um different levels of an organization and,
and societal and interpersonal,
you divide it in that way.
Um So you said institutional blackness,
organizational,
anti blackness and interpersonal anti-black talk to us about the different levels and why it's important for us to understand it as multileveled?

(15:05):
Absolutely.
So I got to campus in 2014 which some might recognize as one of the first like national waves of Black Lives Matter protests because it was in the,
the wake of Mike Brown's murder.
And so I got to campus in a moment where the black students were agitated in a way that I think is very inspirational.

(15:27):
So I don't,
I don't say it in a negative way.
Um but they were sort of confronting at a societal level,
issues of anti blackness and wanting blackness to matter and in particular matter at UC Merced,
I remember attending protests with the students and they had flyers,
especially the Black student Union had a flyer and it says we are the missing 5%.

(15:50):
And I'm not exactly sure where they got their statistics.
But because UC me that is so new when the campus um was first started,
there was a small,
you know,
student population and there were reports that there were about 10% enrollment of black students,
which it doubles the amount of almost every other youth.

(16:12):
And so it was,
they were thinking like what?
Oh,
is this new UC me a place where black students might be incorporated and,
and served in an interesting way.
It's so new.
We don't have any of the old baggage,
maybe this is a place.
But within a few years,
the reports came out again and the black student population is hovering around 65 4%.

(16:35):
And so they were confronted with the missing 5%.
Why are you discussing us as like being so different and new and we don't feel that and all of a sudden our numbers are,
at least our proportion is dwindling.
Um And now we are even,
you know,
lower than the state population of black folks in California and we're matching the U CS in a way that we didn't want to.

(16:57):
And so the students were,
were mad for all of those reasons.
Um,
and they found me very quickly and I don't know that it had anything to do with who I was.
I think I was the right faculty member for them,
but it was just,
there were so few of us here,
there were 55 tenure track back when I got to campus.
Um And so I,
I mean that literally there were so few and all of us were tapped in different ways.

(17:21):
So I had a group of students who said,
you know,
we are looking for a faculty advisor.
We want to create a space for black students on campus.
Um that can become beneficial for us almost like a home base.
We've learned that other U CS and other institutions have these um halls or dorms or what we call living and learning communities.

(17:42):
And we want to try to build one at UC Merced and they named it Afro Hall.
And I said sure,
I mean,
I'm also looking for a home here.
This is so new.
I,
I don't see a lot of black people in my day to day and this could be,
you know,
mutually beneficial.
And so that's how I started working closely with this group of students who named this hall space even before they had a hall.

(18:03):
And so I started working with them right when I got to the and um have continued to work with this space for the last uh nine years,
I suppose.
And it has grown in really exciting ways,
sometimes frustrating and very tiring altogether.
Um But we now have,

(18:25):
it is a living and learning community.
There is a graduate fellow who works with them and we have just in the last year hired a black student success coordinator who is now taking over my job as LLC manager,
which should have never been my job,
but it was for the last eight years.
So we have some sort of institutionalization,

(18:46):
but I was working with this hall and they kept advocating for things on campus and,
and also naming their experiences.
And I said,
you know,
being like student support actually is not my job and maybe not my expertise and I don't know all these things.
Um But I'm a researcher and I think you all actually are like asking important questions for research and the research could be beneficial to you.

(19:10):
So why don't we do a research project?
So a group of them signed up for our undergraduate research opportunities,
which is a similar process um to mcnair,
we call it U Rock,
it's melon funded.
And so we started working together,
we worked together for at least a year um going through all the processes IRB training and then conducting focus groups and analyzing them.

(19:36):
And so when I started out working on this project,
I would thought I was gonna be writing um specifically about Black spaces at H SI S that was sort of the entrance like,
what,
what is this Black Space do for you all?
How is it beneficial?
Because um I see you working hard for it and there's a lot of like the students are reporting,
they're or they're not reporting,

(19:57):
they're just telling me like,
I really like alcohol.
It's helping me stay on campus.
So I was like,
what are those dynamics?
And then um so once we got into the data,
I'm reading these focus groups,
we're talking amongst 11 another.
And I'm like,
this is,
this is a story about this black space,
but what is the story about even more is anti blackness and how it is articulating a explicit need for this black space in order for these students to stay here.

(20:25):
And so that was not necessarily my research question going in,
but that was the answer that was produced.
I I would say and so in looking to go back to your question about thinking about anti blackness at these in institution that the at these three levels,
the institutional organizational and interpersonal,
that is what the data was telling us.

(20:47):
Um And,
you know,
we,
we,
we were in rooms together,
we were using in vivo like independently and the themes just were coming up loud,
clear.
And so we decided that this was going to be a paper on anti-black.
Um And it might still,
and it still does discuss in brief how these spaces are a way to confront and maybe comfort in the face of anti-black.

(21:12):
But um anti-black is where we wanted to go.
And so we started the focus groups really just by saying,
what do you all know about UC me?
Like,
what do you think about it?
You know,
what does this H SI designation mean to you?
And most of the students really did understand that it was an H SI um by definition,

(21:37):
but they described it as more so a PW I,
and I thought that was very fascinating to me and may,
maybe it's not fascinating to other people,
but I was like,
I've been a Pwis like this doesn't look like a PW.
I,
I'm,
I'm so fascinated why you would think this is a PW I and they're like,
um yeah,
but do you see who's in administration?

(21:58):
Do you see the Chancellors?
I mean,
and we have had,
and we do currently have um Latinx Chancers,
but there's been different transitions and still they could be white.
Latinx.
I,
I'm not gonna put,
I'm not gonna identify them myself,
but,
you know,
so they're like,
uh we see these people who might um to us we're perceiving as white.

(22:19):
Um the professors are more likely to be white,
even the Spanish speaking professors are more likely to be from Spain.
Um So for us,
we're seeing in terms of who is,
who has power on campus,
it is still contained within white folks.
Um And even I think in terms of like,

(22:39):
yeah,
their,
their content of the classrooms and what they're learning,
they just felt like uh it didn't seem to be minority serving more generally.
And um so at the institutional level,
that was a really big theme that came out that maybe,
you know,
that like black institutional support wasn't really there,

(23:02):
but above and beyond,
it was operating in a way that they thought these,
you know,
these other institutions were operating even though they expected me said to be different.
Um And then at the institutional level,
I think the other thing was,
was definitely resource uh constraints.
So I know you said you just talked to folks at UC Riverside and my colleague,

(23:26):
Laura Hamilton just wrote this book called Broke.
And it,
it's about the UC system and,
and it focuses on Riverside and UC Merced and it does some of the work that you've done in terms of um basically that UC Riverside and UC Riverside are sort of seen as like the more racially diverse.

(23:47):
You see,
we're also like the ones in the Valley or inland Empire.
And so they're not often top of mind and they do not have the level of resources that all the other U CS have.
Uh but they are the,
they are the institutions that are more likely to serve students of color,
even if they're not black students,
but more students of color and more low income students.

(24:09):
And so that sort of student population designation,
I think like goes up to the institutional level too.
And so there's a lot of resource constraints at UC Merced,
even though we thought that we were getting money poured in to support this growth of the institution.
Um It's just not necessarily at par to our sister campuses.

(24:31):
And so within the institutional constraints,
black students in particular felt like they weren't getting any resources that they might need to thrive.
Um that like,
why didn't they have any black spaces?
And if there were black spaces,
why was it on the backs of their own labor?
Um why were there not more black faculty and staff?
Uh you know,

(24:52):
why is there not uh a Black studies minor or Black city center or,
or,
you know,
uh support to study abroad to black places?
Like just across the board,
they felt like there wasn't institutional support for black students or faculty or staff.
But oftentimes when they're talking,
they're,
they don't always focus on them,

(25:13):
they're like,
are you good?
Like where are your people too?
Uh Do you have support,
you know,
they see it a month,
those faculty and staff who support them,
they just see like the dearth of resources and so the resource constraints at the institutional level and then how it implicates the black students is a big one and how uh primarily white people are in positions of power I think really did show anti-black at the institutional level.

(25:40):
Thank you for the background.
I love the background to the um to how the research came about.
Um It just gives a very real,
I mean,
this podcast is,
is it H SI S what's going on or what's going on?
How are we actually gonna get to serving this?
Right.
And so you added these layers upon layers of like why we're not at like ideal H SI S yet,

(26:04):
right?
Despite you see more said being I say born as an H SI,
right?
Even without the designation,
literally being born as an H SI having the numbers to be an H SI.
Um But there's all these layers and I think it's also fascinating that the student said it operates like a P it feels like a PW I,
right.
You're like,
have you been to Vanderbilt?
I know I'm like,

(26:25):
what's wrong?
Not an H SI I mean,
this is not a PW I but it gets into layers of other things,
right?
Like privatization and uh uh like resources and all these other things,
right?
So,
so no,
iiii I learned a lot.
I also was thinking about um in many ways these students perhaps retained you,

(26:47):
I think about retention a lot,
right?
It sounds like they did,
right?
Had they not found you,
you might have like just gone into your,
you know,
corner of whatever Merced and UC Merce and been like,
I don't belong here,
you know,
like,
um but in many ways,
you all sort of created those spaces.
Uh So,
so the importance of even counter spaces um at H SI S and I mean,

(27:10):
at all institutions,
but at H SI S,
the need for Counter Spaces for Black students and Black faculty,
like that's real,
right?
We need to be talking about that and we need to make sure we're allowing for that and providing resources for that.
Um If we want our black students and our Black faculty to actually thrive in an H SI where they're not the number one are not the number one,

(27:30):
but the the largest percentage,
right?
Um And that's the reality of,
of most H SI S.
So,
yeah,
no,
II I,
you,
you gave me a lot to think about and I'm sure everyone listening.
Um but I don't know if you wanted to touch on the other two.
I mean,
the interpersonal is fascinating to me because that's,
that gets at uh the student to student right,
the students to student racism that we think about,

(27:51):
right?
Um um as part of this anti blackness contract.
So I don't if you want to say any of that about some of the experiences they were having.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
The institutional level to this is it did take a lot of new ones I think,
right?
Because in terms of my research or hat doing focus groups is,

(28:15):
is very fun for me.
Uh And I think the students really enjoyed,
you know,
any moment where they can be around other black students.
So actually,
they really enjoyed the focus group experience.
We have black students who were,
you know,
um African immigrants or mixed race or some Afro Latinx.
So they are navigating their own sort of identities.
And it was interesting even within those focus groups to be to,

(28:39):
you know,
see those play out even among black students.
But then when I asked them to speak about their relationships to other black students to see those um how they reacted to those questions.
And,
you know,
I think somewhere in the article and for any higher ed scholar,
which I'm not,
I'm dabbling,
I'm writing my like uh next review statement and I'm like,

(29:00):
this is a new area.
This is when I'm seeing myself in,
I'm not quite there yet.
Yes.
Come on over.
Um But you know,
these,
these uh institutions of higher Ed are like microcosms of larger society.
And so you watch.
So all the things that happen out there often happen here too,

(29:21):
even if you have,
you know,
this supposed level of understanding because of the classroom experience.
But um people come in with different notions about their selves,
their racial identities,
what an in group and out group is.
Um And so I think the focus groups allowed for that to be discussed because they're talking with one another about their experiences and can see like,

(29:46):
oh I have this experience and then you had this experience.
And so maybe this is a pattern of experiences that we're having.
And so the students would talk about when I asked,
you know,
OK,
can you share um what it's like to be a student here?
How do you interact with other students?
How do you interact with faculty?
Just sort of trying to get at the interpersonal level?

(30:08):
And I,
for the most part,
they would say,
oh yeah,
like I'm cool.
I have,
you know,
a Mexican roommate or um a mom friend or I'm in this organization like I'm,
I'm pretty cool on a one off.
Uh But I feel like our groups that don't really interact so much.
Um You know,

(30:29):
it's still like,
why are there a black table in the cafeteria?
Um We,
we have this black space which we really want and some people think that we're self segregating.
But do they understand this is like the only place for us?
And Um And they'll say,
well,
and then this time I had this experience and this time someone said this to me and then,

(30:50):
you know,
so they were talking about these experiences with microaggressions and then like explicitly,
you know,
um racist experiences.
And so they felt like they could feel anti-black at an interpersonal level through those patterns of experiences.
So let me think through some examples that the students talked about.

(31:14):
Um they would say,
you know,
we would always try to put on cultural shows um or do events for the whole community and we would try to get people to come and no one's showing up besides other black students.
But when other events happening,
they are expecting like us to show up too.

(31:35):
So maybe like uh you know,
they do Coachella at me instead of Coachella because there's a lot of cows here.
Um So maybe even like who they're asking who they're bringing out,
like what type of music that caters to those sorts of things,
they would feel some level of exclusion um or why aren't you all showing up?
But they felt like it wasn't reciprocated even though they were trying to do like huge cultural events.

(31:58):
Um One interesting story that stood out to us was when a Afro Latina student was talking about how she would show up for class and people read her as black and she would say she would go sit,
you know,
in the classroom and no one would really talk to her when they were making small talk or groups.

(32:19):
Um And sometimes they would speak Spanish.
And then one day she talked to somebody and was speaking Spanish and she,
she's described as like the heads were turning like,
oh,
wait,
you.
Um And they didn't see her as that and it,
she had to like,
go above and beyond and signaling some connection to Latina dad to feel included.

(32:40):
But that didn't feel good to her.
Like it didn't feel good that she had to do those things.
And so for her,
that anti blackness,
um you know,
that other other folks of that community talk about really resonated on our campus and she felt like there wasn't a lot of space to,
to have that identity supported.
And she actually really liked being in Afro Hall and connecting with black students even though she was at H SI.

(33:05):
Um there were other students who had interesting experiences,
some who were mixed race,
white and black,
who uh people might have perceived as white passing.
And so they had that those experiences of like slippage that scholars have written about white passing,
mixed race students had these experiences a slippage where people would not see their blackness and then they would hear the anti Blackness front Center like,

(33:30):
oh look at them or even saying,
you know,
racial epithets and things like that and,
and having that hard experience of freezing like do I confront it in this moment or am I not safe?
And so that feels very harmful for black students.
Uh And that is another reason why they might go back to Apple Hall and be like,
yeah,
I had this experience,

(33:51):
I can't share it to anybody else,
but like this is fucked up.
These people are racist.
Um And in particular,
they're focusing on blackness because they are around white students and Asian students and Latinx students.
And they could see across these groups feeling that blackness was set aside in a particular way um deemed as less good,

(34:13):
less worthy,
less smart,
all those things.
And so I think that helped articulate the anti blackness even more.
And that is where the title of the article came from.
A student said that um I think when they were talking about instances of racism,
like I,
you know,
I was raised pro pro black.
I know what it's like to be black.
I know like my parents taught me how to confront racism.

(34:35):
I did not know I would have to confront it to this level until I got here.
So I didn't know what anti-black was until I was around um nonwhite non-black people who are still being racist to them.
So that's like the anti blackness that they experienced.
Yes.

(34:56):
And it makes me think about um the racial innocence book,
right?
By Tanya Hernandez.
Uh When I read that book,
I was like this is gonna be HS Ice because the critical mass,
right?
Like she talks about that like when there's a critical mass of Latin a people,
the anti-black gets even more pronounced,

(35:17):
right?
Because it's like the critical mass is there.
Um And then,
you know,
never mind that there are Afro Latino people within that critical mass.
Um But yeah,
that book was so powerful when I read it because I was like,
this is,
this is the H SI space.
Um and some exercises are,
are already there.
There is the critical,
it's 50 60 70%.

(35:37):
Well,
UC Merced might be there,
right?
Like that Hispanic student,
60% is a lot,
right?
That's the critical mass at the student level,
of course,
but it is,
it's a lot so cool.
All right.
So yeah,
you've given us a lot to think about.
Um But I think the,
the question that I then get asked even when I explain anti-black in an H SI context is like,

(35:59):
how do we disrupt it?
Right.
What do we actually do about it?
So,
I don't know if you've thought through that,
right?
It's like,
how can we actually disrupt this on a daily basis?
How do we start to disrupt this on an institutional level?
Which really is what needs to happen with H SI S?
We cannot expect it to just go away like it's gonna have to be at that institutional level.

(36:19):
So what are your thoughts on that.
What do we,
what do we do?
That is the big question.
And I don't know that I have the big answer,
but I can try to offer a few,
a few answers that are informed by this research and other literature.
Um For one,
I think naming it that a lot of folks don't want to name anti-black and want to think of their institution,

(36:42):
especially if it's minority serving is,
is serving all students.
I think in the wake of 2020 you know,
uh a lot of institutions did have to confront anti-black.
We saw a ton of institutional statements about anti blackness um commitments to address it.
Uh And I think now that we're in 2023 we can see whether or not this happened or not.

(37:05):
Uh You see my said there was the valuing Black Lives Task Force that was created.
And um I know that there's a lot of critiques of task force and what they can do.
Um But I think trying to um a name it and also think about who has been naming it and bringing them to the table is very important.

(37:31):
And so asking studentss like in the wake of this,
if we're gonna address anti-black,
what would that look like for you?
What do you need?
What are those needs and how can we like put money and resources and time and the institutional support behind that?
Some of the good um that has came out of it at our campus.
I'm not sure how well it will be sustained.
Um But uh we did now hire a Black student success coordinator,

(37:57):
uh which I think is very beneficial.
I also don't think that that should be filled by one person because they have been,
you know,
hit by all sides.
And so I would say an increased support for that.
Um There are some initiatives going on on campus that I've been a part of too.

(38:17):
Um So trying to support Black research Excellence and having some funding for students who are interested or faculty and staff,
uh we put on a symposium yearly of for these fellows or for anyone who's doing research to try to support it and,
and honestly just keep naming it,
you know,
that that's part of the goal too.

(38:38):
Um that this doesn't go away with one cycle or definitely not one statement.
I know that there was still some pushbacks.
Uh Once the report on the valuing Black Lives Task Force was put out because the way in which it was written was that the institution has done all of these things and the students read them and say,

(39:00):
oh,
wait,
we did these things,
we advocated for a center,
we decorated this center.
Um We went out and built connections with the ABC conference.
Um We've helped retain faculty and sort of their labor has been very erased.
And so I would say that is something that institutions need to do better um to see the work that the students and faculty and staff do and put money and resources and time and effort into those things without co-opting it in a way that can feel harmful and leaving students feeling disregarded.

(39:34):
Um And also,
I think one thing that the article reiterates is this huge need to support counter spaces um that that if the institution has not yet become a place that feels inclusive or that serves students in their cultural and other needs,

(39:59):
then these other spaces within the institution can really step in and do that work.
But it is so hard to try to run a counter space when you feel like you're getting,
you know,
attacked for even having that counter space.
Like why do you need this?
Um or why is this beneficial?
Why do you need more money?
Why do you need,

(40:20):
you know,
that feels very tiring?
Um but these spaces are so productive and so I think that's one way that institutions can,
can begin to address anti blackness is to see who on campus and what on campus is being a space um that is supportive for black students and and in that way does confront anti-black and support those efforts that are more so like on the ground and really cultivated by those who have that experience and those who are trying to work on it.

(40:55):
I think in my article I cite work by um Warren and Cole and they theorize about these Black educational Spaces.
Um And they say that they're fugitive spaces like almost taking,
you know,
an idea about afrofuturism that tries to tell us about a world that we would want to be.

(41:17):
Um And how that these,
yeah,
they're,
we describe them as counter spaces or maybe a third space.
But what if we looked at them as like the future as,
as this um place where we want to be and try to like come together and build that space.
So they talk about it as community building spaces um that support the self determination and self efficacy.

(41:41):
And I think if we have,
if these are,
you know,
organizational spaces,
we can build them up and embed them more within the institution so that they can become sustained at a level that they're not constantly threatened or attacked.
So I think that's,
that's one way we might try to address anti blackness.

(42:03):
Yes,
you gave us a bunch of ways.
II I love them all.
Um And you got me thinking about a lot of things even like in,
in,
in my newest book,
Transforming Hispanic Serving Institutions.
Um I I sort of do that same sort of like freedom dreaming,
right?
That's like afrofuturism.
Like what if it just was like this,
right?
What if these were just laboratory spaces?
But then my higher ed brain also kicks in and I'm like the only way we do anything is if it's written down in a strategic plan like that,

(42:30):
that's higher end.
So,
so then I'm like,
ok,
fine,
we can dream and color outside the lines,
but then if it's not in a strategic plan,
we ain't doing it.
That's the reality of white administrators,
right?
Which is what is still at H si so,
so then I say we'll put it in the strategic plan,
right?
Um And,
and we,
we don't see that.
Who,

(42:50):
where does it say in a strategic plan or in a mission statement?
Uh we disrupt anti-black?
No,
it says we value diverse,
it to your statement about uh statements,
right?
We value diversity here.
No,
you don't and we don't care about you valuing it.
We want to disrupt the anti-black,
right?
The,
the racism.

(43:12):
Um So,
yeah,
it's like,
uh yeah,
I,
I agree.
There's,
you gave us a lot to think about.
Um And you got me thinking about like,
oh what about this?
What about that?
Um But the creating of spaces I think is so important.
Um The other thing that came to mind is when you talk about black students doing all the work and not getting any credit.
Um I was listening to an episode of uh activism in the Academy,

(43:33):
I wish I remember who that guest was.
I don't remember because I binged a bunch.
But um one of their guests was saying,
like,
pay black students,
right?
Like pay them if they're in leadership,
if they're the president,
if they're in SG a whatever it may be like pay them because they're laboring,
they're laboring for you and getting you credit.

(43:54):
Mhm.
I was a part of an,
an initiative this year uh in related to inclusion Justice Dei.
I,
even though it wasn't called Dei,
I don't remember.
And at the end they told us they had pockets of money for initiatives that we wanted to start.
And I was like,
I am not starting anything else.

(44:16):
You can use whatever money that was designated for me to support the people who have been doing the work.
But that's not,
yeah,
that's not even paying people for what they did.
It's like do like you did a lot.
So now you're here and now you can do more and I'm like,
just can you just give it to the,
yeah,
the student presidents give it to somebody else.
Uh but don't ask me or them to do any more work.

(44:37):
Um And honestly like that,
ok,
I don't know if it's been tested on institutions of higher education,
but we know like a basic income actually can be very beneficial for communities.
And so like,
yeah,
taking that model and adopting it for change agents on college campuses,
like that could,
that could be a very progressive way that we might address some of these issues.

(45:00):
So,
I don't know.
Absolutely.
Oh my gosh.
Yes,
I,
it sounds like you're in this conversation,
you've done a lot of unpaid labor uh you yourself as a black faculty member?
Um So yeah,
say no,
but they know y'all gotta pay somebody to do this.
I mean,
you,
the fact that you said you were directing the living learning community.

(45:23):
I am a um a former student affairs practitioner.
That's what that student affairs practitioners tend to do.
Not faculty research fac you're a research faculty member.
So,
yeah,
I would be in these rooms and I'm like,
how many,
why am I the only faculty person here?
And it was so hard to articulate that for those in the room um for like my review panel,

(45:47):
you know,
in,
in so many different ways.
And like this is um what M me and Cotton says is like uh our jobs as are not our colleagues jobs and it's so hard to describe,
but my job has not been a typical job and we have more,
we do more.
Yeah,

(46:07):
absolutely.
And especially at a place like UC me said that you've described as a very unique place and that it's,
it's in such a new institution.
So it's just,
it's building its identity um and growing and doing things like hiring a black success coach,
right?
Like things that other institutions have been doing for,
you know,
a long time already.
So cool.

(46:27):
Well,
some of your work has been um acknowledged,
right?
You uh have been doing obviously a lot of de I uh efforts on campus and you won the Office of Equity Diversity and Inclusion Inaugural Equity and Justice Award in 2021.
So at least you've been acknowledged for it.
Yay for that.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you.

(46:47):
That was,
that was really great and you know,
um other folks nominated me.
So that was a full surprise.
So there are people.
So thank you to my colleagues who do see that and,
and want to support that work.
Yeah,
for sure.
That that's wonderful.
Um I mean,
in thinking about serving this as a black professor,
you,
I mean,
I think you've described a lot,

(47:07):
a lot of it.
But um is there anything else you would say about like how,
what is your role in,
in making sure serving this is happening?
You,
you mentioned a lot of your,
your um students are Latinas,
right?
Um And so you are doing serving me,
right?
With Latinx Latina community,
not just black students.
Um So what,

(47:28):
how do you see your role in that in,
in actually enacting serving us?
Yeah.
Um One thing about me through any institution as a student to,
you know,
now being an associate professor is that I show up and not everybody does and not everybody can.

(47:49):
So that's fine and not everybody wants to.
Um But for me,
yeah,
working with students,
cultivating students learning from students is such a benefit of this job and So when the students ask,
I do show up and that has been for black students.
That's so true.
But if there are other cultural events or dances or fundraisers,

(48:13):
you know,
I'm,
I'm there and so that just is who I am.
And so I've appreciated building that rapport with the students and,
and learning from them and engaging in their work and,
and seeing where solidarity and community buildings lie across,
you know,
across groups.
And so,
um I definitely enjoy that part,

(48:34):
it adds to the job.
Um but it also fulfills aspects of the job that,
you know,
sitting down at the computer cannot for me.
Um the students,
you know,
I have appreciated in,
in the many ways they have shown up.
There's been so many different instance,
instances that happens,

(48:55):
you know,
when you're a faculty of color who uses their voice.
So I've been on campus reform before uh alongside students,
you know,
for things that we've tweeted and they're,
they're like,
how do I support you?
And I'm like,
how do I support you or how are we supporting each other?
And,
um you know,
oftentimes it can be a simple statement,

(49:17):
like I don't support that the university did this and the students will see that and,
and um appreciate that.
So I have been,
as I mentioned,
I was working with Afro Hall and I was noticing within the hall that they wanted space to think about their race and identity and it would happen,

(49:43):
you know,
informally in the dorms.
Um but oftentimes as a first year student,
it would happen with,
you know,
without any sort of guidance.
And our university rolled out these spark freshman seminar classes and I decided to create a spark class catered towards Afro Hall students,
but of course,
any student can,

(50:03):
can enroll.
So mine was titled Black Identities and I taught it for three years as,
as an add on um to my load,
I was paid for it,
but it was an additional class because I was very interested in it.
And so I had,
yeah,
17,
18,
19 year old students really come into the classroom and we would get into identities.

(50:25):
We would start by thinking about,
you know,
ideologies of white supremacy and anti blackness.
Um We would think about how racism is manifested,
also issues between,
you know,
colorism and intersectionality.
And then we would go through and talk about different black identities.
Like,
what is it like?
Well,
how are identities formed?

(50:45):
Um How are they shaped once you grow older?
How are they changed at an institution?
Uh But also,
let's talk about black immigrant identities and black mixed race identities and Afro Latinx identities.
And let's,
let's get into it because I think sometimes they're trying to learn who they are.
Um and especially even within their black space and they would be like,

(51:08):
wait,
this type of black is different than that type of black.
And now I'm confused about blackness.
And the whole goal of the class is to say blackness is diverse and it's expansive.
And there's so many ways to learn about the Black experience in the United States and globally that it's a,
it's a way to like frame your experience but beyond you.

(51:29):
And I also had um a lot of students who were not black in the class by nature,
you seem very sad.
And so I would uh that time I explicitly framed it like this is a class about blackness.
So we're gonna read about blackness.
Um But when I'm asking you to reflect on your identity,
reflect,
reflect on your own,
like,
you know,
apply it to yourself.
And I just love the the growth I could see in these first year students over the course of a semester and understanding who they are and just doing things like um yeah,

(51:58):
let's journal and then do a creative exercise and people would produce like designs or uh pictures and mosaics that like represent their lives.
And it was very important for the students.
And I think for the hall in that a lot of times people would look at this hall or this black space and say it's so um like exclusive or you're self segregating or is in college about learning about the new experience.

(52:27):
And I'm like,
hello,
blackness is so many different experiences.
And so it like the sole goal is to say,
like we can think through blackness to learn about the world around you because everything that's happening out there also happens within this like umbrella.
And so I really enjoyed that class.
And that's one,
I guess another way that like serving us for black students can show up in,

(52:48):
in the types of classes.
And if we have the ability to teach those classes,
um I taught it as an add-on because it's not a sociology class,
which is where my home base is.
And now they don't allow that and I haven't figured out a way to continue teaching it and that's,
I think an institutional problem.
Um And so that's,
you know,

(53:09):
it's like we make these steps and then something happens,
some policy changes and we go back so I gotta figure out how that can be maintained.
Um But that's my next book project actually.
So,
yes,
about my work,
I'm writing a book on Black Identity of the pa um really reflected from that class and this experience with Afro Hall and,
and trying to um de uh disrupt the idea that blackness is a monolith and how that is shaped by anti-black and to thinking more so about blackness as an expansive category and how that can confront the anti-black that we see.

(53:48):
Excellent.
I can't wait for it.
Congrats on the book project.
You know,
it'll be a few years.
Yes,
of course.
As any good book project is I want to acknowledge something you said about just something that struck me really powerfully is that you said I show up like it seems super basic,

(54:08):
but a lot of faculty don't show up for students,
right?
That actually is a really important.
Um And it makes me think about the urban ed literature about how uh you know,
a lot of like white teachers in urban ed schools.
Um they come and they teach and then they go back to their suburbs and the teachers that actually have this much bigger impact are the ones that,
that live in the communities,
right?
With,

(54:28):
with predominantly black and brown kids,
right?
And these in in urban schools um and if I'm not mistaken,
you live like in the Merced community,
right?
Like pretty close to campus.
So,
so you,
you um you embody that,
right?
Like the fact that AAA student might bump into you at the grocery store,
the literature actually says that is important,
right?
Like that,
that is showing up too,
right?
Just even living in the same spaces as,

(54:50):
as students.
But um yeah,
showing up seems super simple but it's not,
people don't,
don't necessarily do that.
So,
so I wanted to to,
you know,
make sure I re re retweeted that.
Um And then you,
I wanted to also acknowledge that you also won another award.
You're over here winning all the awards Getting All the Flowers um the 2020 A wade Smith Award for teaching,

(55:14):
mentoring and service from the Association of Black Sociologists.
So I think these words are a reflection of like you are,
you do exactly what you're talking about,
right?
Like you,
you show up for students,
you're thinking critically about them.
Um But I wanted to ask you a little bit about your teaching philosophy and you gave us some of that in this like course that you were able to teach.
But what about something you said also made me think,

(55:36):
what about when it is sociology one on one and it's not race.
Um How do you still be culturally relevant or race conscious or a critical race scholar in those sociology spaces that students didn't sign up for that,
which we know that's when black uh faculty in particular or get those low ratings,
right?
Um Because students are like,

(55:56):
I didn't sign up for race.
Why is she talking about race?
So talk to us about that,
about your teaching philosophy,
right?
In,
in your your normal teaching mode?
Yeah,
sure.
I mean,
I am thankful to be at and in front of these students where teaching sociology uh really taps into their lived experience.

(56:18):
Um And I'm saying this coming from Vanderbilt where I had a lot of anxiety going into the classroom because people would,
the students,
I thought um didn't really see my level of expertise as like a young black woman scholar and the students here for the most part I think,
see that they see some aspects of them reflected in me because I am also a share,

(56:41):
you know,
if they ask me questions,
I mean,
I'm not gonna tell them my age,
but I will share a lot about my experience um and try to connect with them in a way that makes sense in order to teach sociology.
Uh and I always tell them,
you know,
especially when I'm teaching a class on race and racism.
Um I'm like,

(57:02):
you all are,
you know,
95% of them are students of color and you all come into the classroom and believe,
you know,
everything there is about race because you're a raced individual.
Uh But my goal is to actually teach you the skills and theories and frameworks and statistics.
So you can,
can have these conversations that are informed about race and racism.

(57:22):
Like you're not yet an expert,
I tell them you have a,
you're an expert on your lived experience and that's valid.
But as a sociologist,
we're gonna look,
you know,
we're gonna look at gen generalities and patterns and,
and really try to paint a broader picture of what's going on beyond an individual experience.
Um And so I tell them my aims,

(57:45):
like I want them to be experts when they leave the classroom about race and racism.
So they can go out and have these conversations since they're confronted with it as a person of color.
Constantly when I teach classes not related to race and racism,
of course,
race and racism is gonna come up.
I don't teach sociology one of one,
but I teach the sociology of health class,

(58:05):
for example.
And for me that has you have to talk about racism and systemic racism.
If we're talking about why disparities exist or classism and capitalism,
if we're talking about why um socioeconomic disparities exist.
And so I'm always trying to think through what they know at the,

(58:26):
in terms of their experience,
it's like I was treated badly in the doctor's office or I didn't have access to healthy food.
I'm like,
OK,
let's situate this.
Where did you live?
What kind of insurance do you have?
What social category might help explain that you're positioning within the system.
And so it's always like taking what they know and making,
trying to make a systems um connection for them.

(58:48):
I also do,
I also spend time in each classroom trying to lay my idea of sort of classroom guidelines.
And,
but part of that is reflecting on what the students want.
So I have a set of guidelines.
Um for instance,
we say people of color are not colored people,

(59:09):
you know,
that's a that comes up um uh that um no human is illegal because that might come up in our classroom.
You know,
there are things that I have seen and I'm like,
this is,
this is the space that I'm cultivating.
Um I also am not one invested in policing language but understanding that language is powerful for those groups who,

(59:30):
you know,
have had it used against them.
And so I say,
I don't wanna hear racial slurs in the classroom.
But also if you're talking about your own group,
that's,
that's your,
your thing.
Like if you're a black person,
you say the N word,
I'm not gonna call you out and I'm also not gonna use any other racial epithet towards anybody else and vice versa.
But I just remember being in classrooms where maybe um a student was like,

(59:53):
oh yeah,
my friend said the N word and they're a white student and no one stops them.
And I remember feeling like so frustrated and wanting the professor to step in and I will step in,
I will always step in if it's something like that.
But laying those sort of guidelines down in the beginning,
I think can be really helpful and then asking the students like,
what,
what else?

(01:00:13):
What am I missing?
Like,
let's talk about gender identities.
What are we doing?
Do we want to,
you know,
everyone introduced by pronouns?
So I'm,
I try to inform my classroom space by my experience,
but also just like who's in the room at the time and what that means.
And I would say that um and just being like,

(01:00:35):
y'all can correct me,
I'm,
I'm pro first of all from the Midwest,
I'm mispronouncing everybody's name.
It's so horrible.
I try to do better.
I really try.
I'm like,
please,
this is not a fault of yours.
Correct me any time.
So,
like,
I try to,
like,
bring in examples of corrections and then try to have that throughout the classroom too.
Like,

(01:00:56):
um,
I might be running late.
I'm so sorry.
But I want,
I don't want to let you out late,
like,
interrupt me if there is a problem,
whether it's big or small or whether I assigned a reading that you felt was thought was like offensive.
I don't know what it is,
but let me know.
And so trying to build those classroom dynamics and um I just had to look through my emails the other day because I'm writing my review statement and that comes up constantly and I am so appreciative that the students see this and they say like this space um has been cultivating or I could have really good discussions that I haven't had in other classes or she respects me.

(01:01:33):
That's a big one.
And I find that the more I respect the students,
they respect me back.
Um So I don't,
I don't often feel disrespected by the students,
but I think we build that mutual sort of respect of one another early on is my hope so that we can get into these deep sociological topics without people feeling like offended or that they can't share their experiences.

(01:01:55):
And I'm blown away every year by things that students share.
Uh It's hard because I'm not a trained in that area either.
But um we,
I assigned readings on um uh DACA and there's a ton of DACA students in the classroom.
There's some readings about,
you know,

(01:02:15):
borders and immigration and deportation.
And students will say,
you know,
I had a family member who's deported and every time I'm like,
thank you for sharing or the students will jump in.
Thank you so much for sharing.
What do you need?
How do we support you?
Um They disclose a lot of these things that we read and talk about through their personal experiences.

(01:02:37):
And I just think that um like I'm honored for them to be able to share that in that space.
And I take it,
you know,
that with that honor,
I have to do something with it and that,
you know,
so if they're gonna share,

(01:02:57):
thank you so much and I can see that this resonates with this,
this reading and,
and now we see how the law,
you know,
has impacted personal experience.
So again,
trying to think through their personal experiences and connecting it and so that they know that it's not a fault of any sort of individual deficiency or problem with who they are that,
that there are explanations and framing and policies that have shaped their own experiences like that.

(01:03:22):
I think as a sociologist is,
is one of my biggest goals in the classroom.
Thank you.
That was a lot.
And you have just given us so many good things to think through.
I,
I love it.
I,
I'm here sitting like taking notes and you just got me thinking about a lot of really important things.

(01:03:43):
Um and I think I just,
I mean,
if I know the students appreciate you UC Mercer,
but they,
they really are lucky to have you.
Um they're all students,
uh Latina students,
black students,
white students,
they all um you know,
they should be appreciating you at a high level.
So I hope you keep winning all the awards and getting all the things and all the grants because I know you're successful in that area as well.

(01:04:08):
Um But this has been such a beautiful conversation.
So thank you for coming on and talking to us on the pod and getting us uh thinking about uh you know,
H SI S but the final question,
same question for everybody.
How do you respond to the question?
H SI S?
Um I don't know,

(01:04:30):
I mean,
like what's good?
What we gonna talk about?
We talked about it all,
we talked about it all.
What's good?
I like that response actually.
What's good?
H SI where are we going next?
Um I will,
I do want to say,
you know,
you asked about like my H SI journey and I mentioned being at UC my,
but I would say that you're definitely a part of that journey.

(01:04:51):
Um I read your book and your work because I'm at UC me,
you came out,
I said,
hey,
I got questions for you.
I'm working on this article.
You gave me feedback in real time.
You have supported this work in a whole like generation of scholars.
So um definitely a shout out to you and I think this podcast moving forward is a bigger Testament.
So you're a part of that journey too.

(01:05:12):
Thank you.
That was I,
I do remember that visit.
And uh yeah,
uh we,
we've been in contact for quite some time and at that time,
I was already ling you um and knew you were gonna do some pretty cool uh work around this really important topic um um about H SI S and about serving students,
right,
in really intentional ways.
So,
so thank you for that and thank you for being with us today.

(01:05:34):
Thank you.