February 21, 2025 • 10 mins
I spoke with Lynn Tubalinal, the Director of Litigation Support at Dykema, and Julia Voss, the Director of Litigation Support and eDiscovery at UB Greensfelder. Both are among the industry leaders who contributed to the recently published report - Advancing Litigation Support to Fuel Growth in a Changing Legal Market - supported by Opus 2. We discussed the effect of the increasing volume and variety of data, how a team knows that it is time to upgrade its technology, successful strategies for driving adoption, and effective generative AI use cases.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Reinventing Professionals, a podcast hosted by industry analyst Ari Kaplan,
(00:07):
which shares ideas, guidance and perspectives from market leaders shaping the next generation
of legal and professional services.
This is Ari Kaplan and I'm speaking today with Lynn Tubilino, the Director of Litigation
Support at Daikama and Julia Voss, the Director of Litigation Support and E-Discovery at UB
(00:29):
Greensfelder, both are among the industry leaders who contributed to the recently published
report Advancing Litigation Support to Fuel Growth in a Changing Legal Market, supported
by Opus 2.
Lynn Julia, great to see you.
Great to see you.
Great to see you too, Ari.
Lynn, tell us about your background and your role at Daikama.
(00:51):
I started off as a paralegal and then just fell into litigation support.
I was a very eager paralegal, but I had the technical background and prowess to get into
the industry and kind of clawed away into it, had multiple jobs over the last few years
and started on the leadership side when I was at Tubby Austin for about eight years, about
(01:14):
three and a half years ago.
This opportunity at Daikama came up and I couldn't say no.
Julia, tell us about your background and your role at UB Greensfelder.
I am an antitrust litigator turned e-discovery professional.
Twenty years ago, I had one of the bigger cases in the firm right around when all the rules
for civil procedure were changing, so I was tasked with figuring it out.
(01:35):
Once I figured it out, I had to start teaching everybody else in giving presentations.
So in 2014, when the firm decided that a lawyer should lead litigation support, they asked
me to move into that role.
Once I have been the director of litigation support and e-discovery for eleven years.
Lynn, did anything in our research report surprise you?
(01:57):
What is really surprising to me and it's not necessarily related to the content overall,
we're all going through the same issues and figuring this out as we go.
In these roles, you tend to feel like you're on an island and don't see what everybody else
is going through until you start talking to people and that was really interesting because
of the fast-paced industry that we are in.
(02:18):
We don't always got to talk to one another and connect, but through these reports, I was
like, "Okay, I'm not on an island.
People are going through the same thing that I am going through and I need to figure
out who I can talk to and what other people are doing and what makes the most sense for
all of us as an industry."
Julia, one theme was the increasing volume and variety of data.
(02:39):
What impact do you expect this trend to have?
Volume is just going to drive more litigators to realize that they have to have some technical
solution where they used to maybe have a small case with a few hundred documents, they could
just manage it.
They can't do that anymore with the volume.
Volume is going to spark a realization that you have to be in some technological solution.
(03:01):
The variety in data is the thing that is the most impactful right now.
There's so many different sources of data available.
Every new day, it seems like here's a new app or there's an update to the phone or Microsoft
so every Tuesday is updating.
It's constant chasing the updates and new apps and new ways to get data that there was a long
(03:22):
time where we felt like we knew how to do e-discovery because we knew how to get emails.
We finally had figured that out and everybody got comfortable.
Then teams came along and then slept and then WhatsApp.
And now it just feels like a never ending cycle of chasing the newest app.
Lynn, what advice would you offer to others who are managing these changes?
(03:43):
First and foremost, don't get overwhelmed.
We're all going through at the same time.
Figure out what works best for your team.
One of the things that I've adopted recently is meeting with the team and talking through
issues of processing, the specific data types and reaching out to those that have better
answers and bringing in solutions and providing options to our case teams because sometimes
(04:03):
it's not an LBL solution.
So there's going to be times that it might not be relevant to their case strategy to include
a modern attachment.
One of the things that internally we've focused on is really trying to get to the heart of
what the case teams are trying to do versus saying what we can do from a technical perspective
and really understanding what their needs are and what their strategy is at the end of
(04:23):
the day because they are internal clients and they have to speak to our external clients.
It can really be easy to get overwhelmed.
There's a lot of different data types out there and you're not going to be the expert
on everything but rely on those people who are the experts and get information from them.
Julia outdated technology, specifically case management was another theme in the research.
How do you know when it's time to explore new solution and if you've upgraded recently,
(04:48):
what are your tips for others as they select new applications?
You start to realize it might be time to look at a new solution when people aren't using
the one you have or there is technology out there that can help but we just don't have
it yet.
It's really just listening to the people around you and trying to see what their needs are
once you've identified a need, figure out who has the time to investigate that need and
(05:14):
who is willing to test it out.
The hardest part is finding people with time to test these things out and figure out which
is the best way to move forward especially with all the tech that we have changing all at
once because of AI.
With everything changing at once, you have to have a group of people who understand what
the technology you have already is doing and what could a new product bring to the table.
(05:37):
Linda's outdated technology contribute to a lack of adoption.
It's balancing.
The outdated technology against the cost of moving to a solution that is newer, faster,
better and getting teams to buy into that.
I always get that how much this is going to cost me conversation with the attorneys
and we as technologists are really open to that but then the reality is how much it's going
(06:02):
to cost to replace an outdated tool.
There's a lot of different things that go into kind of those decisions.
Julia, what strategies have been successful in encouraging adoption in your firm?
Presenting the attorneys with the final product instead of just starting with, hey, look at
what this can do and you have to do this input and this input and this input.
(06:23):
They've lost interest by the time they realize how amazing the final product could
be.
Getting a small team together who works with it and figures it out and can present the
result first has been the best way to drive adoption because once they see what the end
product is and can appreciate that, then they're willing to say, all right, I understand
(06:44):
there might be a little bit of work in getting it here.
What do I have to do?
Linda Jenner to the AI has been and will continue to be a hot topic.
How are you using AI in the firm and what have you learned from your experiences so far?
There's different components of AI, not just generative AI.
We've been utilizing that in our workflows for years.
(07:06):
We actually just signed for generative AI for a review platform so we're really excited
for that.
I'm trying to identify my champions.
The people that will use it and give me honest feedback.
We really have to show them the end part of it versus the nuts and bolts, but I have to identify
those people who work through the trenches on those.
(07:27):
I think they experience overall, at least from the feedback I've been getting from people
in the industry.
Everybody's waiting and seeing what other people are doing and working in that same boat,
but we don't want to be behind the curve.
Nobody wants to be behind the curve, but we still want to adopt it.
But we're cautiously treading into the arena.
The Julie's, how are you using AI, but also curious about what resources, training, skills
(07:51):
that you're hoping to develop with respect to Gen AI and others as investments for 2025?
We have been using different kinds of AI for a long time, but generative AI is the obvious
new shiny toy in document review platforms.
We have been testing it from a few months and we're starting to test it out and see how it
does and slowly grow adoption through being able to show how it worked.
(08:17):
For resources and training, we really just have to be able to put aside the time to get
our people up to date on how to use these products so that we can support the lawyers.
And I think some of that's investment in people so that the great people we already have
can continue to help the legal teams move forward.
Lynn, what is your team doing in 2025 to maintain its competitive edge?
(08:42):
Making sure that the talent that we have currently is able to utilize the tool and be our champions
education overall.
And I spend a lot of 2024 marketing my team.
People don't fully understand what we do, but I understand if I'm very high level, my
team is just trying to get them work done, but they may not necessarily know how to market
the team.
(09:02):
So that's something I've been working on internally.
Sometimes that phone call might be helpful just to walk through some of the questions they
might not have thought about when sending you an email.
It's a little bit back to basics, but I think it's helpful to market what we have and what
we could bring, what feedback you would get in those conversations.
It's been very helpful to me in 2024.
So continuing that in 2025.
(09:23):
What didn't surprise me at all about this report is that we're all trying to do some of
the same things.
We're internally rebranding our team calling ourselves the data intelligence team.
We're showcasing to our internal people that we have a team of technologists and eDiscovery
council who work together so that you can understand what needs to be done in your matter
(09:43):
and trying to get everybody to understand that this team exists already.
We're here and we can do more so that you can focus on the merits of your case while we
help you get through.
This is Ari Kaplan speaking with Lynn Tuberlino, the director of litigation support at
YaiKaMA and Julia Foss, the director of litigation support in eDiscovery at UB Greensfelder.
(10:07):
Both are among the industry leaders who contributed to the recently published report advancing
litigation support to fuel growth in a changing legal market supported by Opus 2.
Lynn, Julia, it's been a privilege.
Thank you so very much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to the reinventing professionals podcast.
Visit reinventingprofessionals.com
(10:29):
or RE-CAPLINED-Advisors.com to learn more.
Welcome to Reinventing Professionals, a podcast hosted by industry analyst Ari Kaplan,
(00:07):
which shares ideas, guidance and perspectives from market leaders shaping the next generation
of legal and professional services.
This is Ari Kaplan and I'm speaking today with Lynn Tubilino, the Director of Litigation
Support at Daikama and Julia Voss, the Director of Litigation Support and E-Discovery at UB
(00:29):
Greensfelder, both are among the industry leaders who contributed to the recently published
report Advancing Litigation Support to Fuel Growth in a Changing Legal Market, supported
by Opus 2.
Lynn Julia, great to see you.
Great to see you.
Great to see you too, Ari.
Lynn, tell us about your background and your role at Daikama.
(00:51):
I started off as a paralegal and then just fell into litigation support.
I was a very eager paralegal, but I had the technical background and prowess to get into
the industry and kind of clawed away into it, had multiple jobs over the last few years
and started on the leadership side when I was at Tubby Austin for about eight years, about
(01:14):
three and a half years ago.
This opportunity at Daikama came up and I couldn't say no.
Julia, tell us about your background and your role at UB Greensfelder.
I am an antitrust litigator turned e-discovery professional.
Twenty years ago, I had one of the bigger cases in the firm right around when all the rules
for civil procedure were changing, so I was tasked with figuring it out.
(01:35):
Once I figured it out, I had to start teaching everybody else in giving presentations.
So in 2014, when the firm decided that a lawyer should lead litigation support, they asked
me to move into that role.
Once I have been the director of litigation support and e-discovery for eleven years.
Lynn, did anything in our research report surprise you?
(01:57):
What is really surprising to me and it's not necessarily related to the content overall,
we're all going through the same issues and figuring this out as we go.
In these roles, you tend to feel like you're on an island and don't see what everybody else
is going through until you start talking to people and that was really interesting because
of the fast-paced industry that we are in.
(02:18):
We don't always got to talk to one another and connect, but through these reports, I was
like, "Okay, I'm not on an island.
People are going through the same thing that I am going through and I need to figure
out who I can talk to and what other people are doing and what makes the most sense for
all of us as an industry."
Julia, one theme was the increasing volume and variety of data.
(02:39):
What impact do you expect this trend to have?
Volume is just going to drive more litigators to realize that they have to have some technical
solution where they used to maybe have a small case with a few hundred documents, they could
just manage it.
They can't do that anymore with the volume.
Volume is going to spark a realization that you have to be in some technological solution.
(03:01):
The variety in data is the thing that is the most impactful right now.
There's so many different sources of data available.
Every new day, it seems like here's a new app or there's an update to the phone or Microsoft
so every Tuesday is updating.
It's constant chasing the updates and new apps and new ways to get data that there was a long
(03:22):
time where we felt like we knew how to do e-discovery because we knew how to get emails.
We finally had figured that out and everybody got comfortable.
Then teams came along and then slept and then WhatsApp.
And now it just feels like a never ending cycle of chasing the newest app.
Lynn, what advice would you offer to others who are managing these changes?
(03:43):
First and foremost, don't get overwhelmed.
We're all going through at the same time.
Figure out what works best for your team.
One of the things that I've adopted recently is meeting with the team and talking through
issues of processing, the specific data types and reaching out to those that have better
answers and bringing in solutions and providing options to our case teams because sometimes
(04:03):
it's not an LBL solution.
So there's going to be times that it might not be relevant to their case strategy to include
a modern attachment.
One of the things that internally we've focused on is really trying to get to the heart of
what the case teams are trying to do versus saying what we can do from a technical perspective
and really understanding what their needs are and what their strategy is at the end of
(04:23):
the day because they are internal clients and they have to speak to our external clients.
It can really be easy to get overwhelmed.
There's a lot of different data types out there and you're not going to be the expert
on everything but rely on those people who are the experts and get information from them.
Julia outdated technology, specifically case management was another theme in the research.
How do you know when it's time to explore new solution and if you've upgraded recently,
(04:48):
what are your tips for others as they select new applications?
You start to realize it might be time to look at a new solution when people aren't using
the one you have or there is technology out there that can help but we just don't have
it yet.
It's really just listening to the people around you and trying to see what their needs are
once you've identified a need, figure out who has the time to investigate that need and
(05:14):
who is willing to test it out.
The hardest part is finding people with time to test these things out and figure out which
is the best way to move forward especially with all the tech that we have changing all at
once because of AI.
With everything changing at once, you have to have a group of people who understand what
the technology you have already is doing and what could a new product bring to the table.
(05:37):
Linda's outdated technology contribute to a lack of adoption.
It's balancing.
The outdated technology against the cost of moving to a solution that is newer, faster,
better and getting teams to buy into that.
I always get that how much this is going to cost me conversation with the attorneys
and we as technologists are really open to that but then the reality is how much it's going
(06:02):
to cost to replace an outdated tool.
There's a lot of different things that go into kind of those decisions.
Julia, what strategies have been successful in encouraging adoption in your firm?
Presenting the attorneys with the final product instead of just starting with, hey, look at
what this can do and you have to do this input and this input and this input.
(06:23):
They've lost interest by the time they realize how amazing the final product could
be.
Getting a small team together who works with it and figures it out and can present the
result first has been the best way to drive adoption because once they see what the end
product is and can appreciate that, then they're willing to say, all right, I understand
(06:44):
there might be a little bit of work in getting it here.
What do I have to do?
Linda Jenner to the AI has been and will continue to be a hot topic.
How are you using AI in the firm and what have you learned from your experiences so far?
There's different components of AI, not just generative AI.
We've been utilizing that in our workflows for years.
(07:06):
We actually just signed for generative AI for a review platform so we're really excited
for that.
I'm trying to identify my champions.
The people that will use it and give me honest feedback.
We really have to show them the end part of it versus the nuts and bolts, but I have to identify
those people who work through the trenches on those.
(07:27):
I think they experience overall, at least from the feedback I've been getting from people
in the industry.
Everybody's waiting and seeing what other people are doing and working in that same boat,
but we don't want to be behind the curve.
Nobody wants to be behind the curve, but we still want to adopt it.
But we're cautiously treading into the arena.
The Julie's, how are you using AI, but also curious about what resources, training, skills
(07:51):
that you're hoping to develop with respect to Gen AI and others as investments for 2025?
We have been using different kinds of AI for a long time, but generative AI is the obvious
new shiny toy in document review platforms.
We have been testing it from a few months and we're starting to test it out and see how it
does and slowly grow adoption through being able to show how it worked.
(08:17):
For resources and training, we really just have to be able to put aside the time to get
our people up to date on how to use these products so that we can support the lawyers.
And I think some of that's investment in people so that the great people we already have
can continue to help the legal teams move forward.
Lynn, what is your team doing in 2025 to maintain its competitive edge?
(08:42):
Making sure that the talent that we have currently is able to utilize the tool and be our champions
education overall.
And I spend a lot of 2024 marketing my team.
People don't fully understand what we do, but I understand if I'm very high level, my
team is just trying to get them work done, but they may not necessarily know how to market
the team.
(09:02):
So that's something I've been working on internally.
Sometimes that phone call might be helpful just to walk through some of the questions they
might not have thought about when sending you an email.
It's a little bit back to basics, but I think it's helpful to market what we have and what
we could bring, what feedback you would get in those conversations.
It's been very helpful to me in 2024.
So continuing that in 2025.
(09:23):
What didn't surprise me at all about this report is that we're all trying to do some of
the same things.
We're internally rebranding our team calling ourselves the data intelligence team.
We're showcasing to our internal people that we have a team of technologists and eDiscovery
council who work together so that you can understand what needs to be done in your matter
(09:43):
and trying to get everybody to understand that this team exists already.
We're here and we can do more so that you can focus on the merits of your case while we
help you get through.
This is Ari Kaplan speaking with Lynn Tuberlino, the director of litigation support at
YaiKaMA and Julia Foss, the director of litigation support in eDiscovery at UB Greensfelder.
(10:07):
Both are among the industry leaders who contributed to the recently published report advancing
litigation support to fuel growth in a changing legal market supported by Opus 2.
Lynn, Julia, it's been a privilege.
Thank you so very much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to the reinventing professionals podcast.
Visit reinventingprofessionals.com
(10:29):
or RE-CAPLINED-Advisors.com to learn more.
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