February 15, 2023 • 63 mins
In this episode of The Savory Shot, host Mica McCook chats with Robin Zachary, a prop stylist who has built a successful career in an unconventional industry. Robin shares insight into her career journey, her mother's advice on the importance of having anything and everything be a prop, and her new book, Styling Beyond Instagram. Tune in to hear Robin's inspiring story and practical advice.
Savory Shot Shownote: https://micamccook.com/guests/styling-beyond-instag/ Website: https://micamccook.com/podcast Instagram: www.instragram.com/mica.mccook Instagram: www.instagram.com/thesavoryshotpodcast Would you like to be a guest on the show? Fill out the guest form, and we'll be in touch soon.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mica (00:00):
Welcome to the 18th episode of The Savory Shot.
Y'all already know me, and if you don't,my name is Mica McCook and I'm your host.
First, I just wanna saythank you for being here.
I know you have a million thingsyou could be doing right now, but
instead you're here with me and thatmeans the world to me, so thank you.
(00:24):
Gracias.
That's all I know.
I don't know any other.
I don't know any other ways tosay thank you in other languages.
Y'all, y'all, y'all.
Oooh.
I'm eager to get this par-taystarted, so I'm not going to
waste any time on today's intro.
(00:46):
Y'all, we have a truly incredibleguest with us today, and I have no
doubt that their story and insightswill leave a lasting impact on you.
I know it did for me.
Today's episode is all aboutstarting an unconventional career
and figuring it out as you go.
And if you're a freelancer, youknow what I'm talking about.
(01:08):
This is all relatable.
Hello.
My guest, Robin Zachary is a propstylist and has built a successful
career into an industry that isnot always easy to break into.
Y'all, we got into some real meatand potatoes in our conversation.
Robin shared the important lessonshe learned from her mother.
(01:30):
About the importance of usinganything and everything as a prop.
Y'all, Robin believes that anythingcan be a prop and has learned to save
everything because you never know whenit might come in handy for a shoot.
We talked about her course, TheProp Styling Experience, which helps
aspiring prop stylists and anyoneinterested in learning the skills
(01:53):
they need to succeed in the industry.
That means you food photographers.
One of the things that really stood outto me during our conversation was Robin's
new book, Styling Beyond Instagram.
Y'all, this book is all about taking yourprop styling skills to the next level
and creating truly standout images thatgo beyond just being Instagram worthy.
(02:16):
But before we get intothat, let's start the show.
(02:58):
I wanna start off by sayingthank you for, for joining me
and for trusting me with this.
Welcome, Robin to the show.
Robin (03:09):
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you for seeking me out andfinding me and writing to me.
You're just the right kindof person I'd like to talk to.
Mica (03:18):
Oh yes.
That makes me so happy.
That makes me so happy.
Well, I wanna dive right in.
Awesome, awesome.
So while I was starting to wear researchon you, I found your blog Prop Closet
and I thought it was the coolest thingand I'm just like, went through quite a
few years of posts and it was awesome.
(03:39):
But I wanted to find your very first post.
And I did, and it was in April, 2008and it was very like small minimal.
All that said, this is it.
I has begun to blog.
And it just made me laughbecause I remember 2008 being
like the coolest thing ever.
And starting a blog of my ownand I thought, oh my gosh,
(04:02):
I have so many thoughts.
I wanna know, what was your worldlike when you made that post?
Robin (04:07):
Oh, dear.
Well, the world, well my world, Iwas busy doing lots of things, um,
in photography and styling, and Ikind of, I, I wanted to talk about it
back then with so many things didn'texist yet, like Instagram and, uh,
I guess Twitter probably was around.
(04:28):
Sort of, but blogging wasfirst in social media really.
I mean so I put it out there, Ididn't know how to publicize it.
I didn't know how to monetize it.
I was just typing away.
And then, you know, I foundwriting very difficult actually.
But kind of second guess the thingsI said, even though I'd kind of
ramble on about certain things.
And it's interesting that youfound it because I, I still pay
(04:50):
to have it up there, on a Typepad,and I've never taken it down.
And occasionally somebody does find it.
If you do a little bit of digging, Idon't have it linked to anything really.
Well, I wanted to show whatit was like behind the scenes.
This was like, I always did wannawrite a book, but again, I didn't have
connections or know-how, even thoughI'd been in the magazine business for
(05:14):
a very long time, all my connectionswere in magazines, not in books.
They're two separate worlds.
Mica (05:20):
Oh, they're definitely two separate worlds in 2008.
I mean, before any kind of social media,how do you tell people what you do without
or how do you learn about what you do?
You mentioned in a few interviewsthat when you started out as a prop
stylist that there was no directpath and you had to figure it out
(05:43):
on your own as you went along.
As a, as a theater person,I totally get that.
Once we were done with school,they were just like fly bird.
And we're like, what?
What?
How do we get jobs?
When did it become clear to you thatyou were paving a career path that
future prop stylists would follow?
Robin (06:05):
Well, I started in magazines, as I said, and that's where I first
learned that it existed as a careerbecause I was a designer and artist.
I graduated with an art degree,like General Art, you know, from,
uh, the State University of NewYork at Binghamton, which is not
really known as an art school.
(06:25):
But I took the art program and whenI graduated, I, I actually had been
training at the school paper tolearn typography and, and layout.
So my first job jobs were in design,so I was designing pages but then I had
opportunities at early startup magazinesto be involved in creating the imagery.
(06:47):
And here's a story on a food story.
Well, they just likeRobin, go make it happen.
So I basically would either, we eitherhad, um, like a recipe developer or chef
or a restaurant that we worked with.
So I would go and get some plates andget some napkins and create a set and
bring a photographer and have it shot.
(07:09):
What was funny is those early one, veryearly shoot, we spent a whole lot of time
setting it up in the restaurant, doingthe lighting and the set, and the chefs
were making the dishes and I brought myown plates and they plated it beautifully.
We put it together.
We must have spent a couple ofhours getting the set ready.
(07:31):
And then when we were, we werelike, okay, bring the, the plate a
dish out and we're ready to shoot.
So everybody came out from thekitchen thinking that there was
gonna be some like extravaganzahappening for the photo shoot.
And you know, like for a foodshoot, it's just sitting there.
So they all come out, all the,everybody from the kitchen
and they're like just waiting.
And the photographer justgoes, snap, snap, snap.
(07:52):
You know, a few exposures and it's done.
They were expecting kind of somethingdazzling to happen that's kind of,
maybe they were thinking of it, ofa fashion shoot or something, but it
was very different experience all.
So all the work is really in thesetup and the preparation beforehand.
So that was very early, early days.
(08:13):
So what was somewhere?
Was I going with this?
I forgot.
Um,
Mica (08:19):
Something this is just a little tail end and then I'll bring it back
to the paving a career path question.
Is something you said that justmade me laugh because it's so
true about the expectation oflike what a, a food shoot is like.
It's like everyone expects it to be likethis great grand and vogue you know?
(08:39):
And it's like two orthree snaps and it's done.
It reminds me of thephotographer, Gregory Crewdson.
He is just an amazing photographer.
He does like fine art and he rentsout entire town, and it's this
huge production, like you wouldthink it's a whole ass movie.
He's got like smoke blowing andthere's not a single detail that's
(09:03):
missed and it all, you know, thisjust this built up, built up, built
up and action, and then click.
Done.
That's the shots.
It's like you're leading up to thisone click of a moment and that's it.
That's here and gone.
That surprised me the mostabout food photography.
Robin (09:24):
Now you can, you do a couple of options.
You might put a garnish, change thegarnish, put something else in what?
Move a prop there.
Move a prop there.
So you have a few options.
So could take a few minutes of,of tinkering with things on the
set to get it exactly right.
Generally there, there's so muchinvolved in the lead up to the shoot
that most people don't realize.
(09:47):
That's why I was like happy to be, beable to go through and spell it out.
How much time do you need to leave?
How much beginning the in fromthe inception of the project
to the day of the shoot.
If you wanna go back to my career path.
There.
Mica (10:02):
Hey, I, I like to let these interviews organically flow the
way that they're supposed to,so there are no wrong answers.
Whatever pops in your mind iswhat needs to be on the episode.
What we were talking about earlieris about paving a career path.
You had said in, in several interviewsthat there were no other prop stylists
(10:22):
that you knew of and you kind of hadto figure things out on your own.
Today I feel like we're definitelyspoiled in that we have so many mentors.
At what point did you.
Well, I guess these will be two questions.
You know, who are your mentors andat what point did you realize that
the path that you were taking, thatfuture proof stylist, prop stylist,
(10:45):
would look back on and go, okay, Robindid this, so I'm gonna do this too.
Robin (10:49):
Um, well, mentors for me, were hard, kind of hard to find.
My mentors were my editors at magazinesthat kind of told me what they were
looking for and trusted me to learn on thejob, which is basically how it unfolded.
Early on, I did meet a prop stylistnamed Sarah Avalon, who, she was the
(11:11):
first person I knew, and, um, shewas recommended by a photographer.
We were both friends with thesame photographer, so I would see
her at his studio all the time.
I'd see her scurrying around.
Props and paint and, andsketches and all kinds of things.
And I was like, now thatlooks like a fun job.
I was like trapped in a full-time jobat the magazine and I got to do lots of
(11:32):
styling jobs, but I saw her as having afreelance career, so we became friendly.
So she was really the first mentor,and I don't know that I had at the
time that I was doing it, I had beenart directing for so many years that
it became a just a natural flow.
When I decided to leave full-time creativedirector at my last job, I basically
(11:58):
had done styling in so many areas.
So whether it was like fashion, flowers,food, home decor, receptions, tableware,
beauty, cover shoots, you name it.
I had a lot of experience to go off of.
And all I knew is that I liked the ideaof doing more paired down quieter shoots.
(12:21):
When I first left that job, I wasdoing fashion styling and prop styling.
And I, so I did prob a couple ofyears of fashion styling, like
bridal fashion styling, which Iloved, traveled, and it was fun.
And then I just decided stilllife is much more chill.
Much more where I see myself,like personality wise.
(12:41):
I mean, I, I did hundreds and hundredsof fashion and beauty shoots with like
20 people there, and it, it's a lot.
Some people think it's glamorous andeverything, but you know what, it's
a lot, it's a lot of personalities, alot of egos, and you're just trying to
keep the peace to get everything done.
I found my calling in prop styling,and especially for food shoots.
(13:05):
Most of the work I do is for food shoots.
Mica (13:07):
That's so awesome.
And gosh, the, the bridal fashion shoots,uh, I totally understand like the,
the craziness and too many, I call itjust too many bosses in the same room.
Everyone has a deadlinethat needs priority.
It's like, how do you, howdo you work around that?
(13:28):
One story that I, I read of yoursthat I just, I loved, we talked about
your mom meeting you at the trainstation with the bag of props in hand.
And I was like, oh my gosh, that's,that's her, that's her first,
uh, partner in crime right there.
My, my friend Charlotte.
She's extremely close to both sides of,of her grandparents or her grandmothers.
(13:48):
I met both of her grandmothers.
When one of her grandmothers passed away.
She had this whole house tolook through, and at the time,
Charlotte and I had a, a food blog.
And she had all of these amazingprops and it's like these are
props for the blog, but this isa whole woman's life and history.
And you feel like you really get toknow the person through the things
(14:10):
that they hold onto over the years.
And so even though like I met hergrandmother once at Charlotte's
wedding, I felt like I knew her asa person just by the things that I
held in my hands that were of hers.
What is one thing that you learnedfrom your mother that has stuck
with you throughout your career?
Robin (14:29):
Let's see.
My mother just, she just wanted meto succeed, so she would do whatever
she could to help me in whateverbusiness idea I was coming up with,
or she would drive me into the city.
When we lived in Long Island forone of my early businesses in
high school, I painted t-shirts.
So we drove down to the Lower EastSide to buy like wholesale t-shirt.
(14:53):
She was always like whatever it was I wasinto, she provided me with the space and
the materials for just about anything.
If I learned anything from her, it'sto hold onto everything because she
never know when you're gonna need it.
So that's why I probably don't everhave to leave the house because I've
got anything I need here for any littlegadget or widget or gizmo for anything.
(15:20):
It's like something comes up that I haveto find that I haven't looked at in years.
It's like I know where it is.
I know where I lost last, saw it.
So I know like I could just reachinto this cabinet and pull it out.
Something like, oh yeah, Ihaven't seen that thing in a
while, and I know it's there.
And that's kind of whatour house was like.
It was, but it was a house and now it'san apartment, so it's a different story.
(15:44):
Like in a house, there'sjust endless room for things.
I mean, we had a pretty big house anda basement and I would tinker around
with things down in the basement allthe time with all the art supplies.
She definitely, if I wasworking on something like.
And I needed like a vintage bag.
I mean she had like, it was mostly thevintage stuff that I would get from her.
(16:04):
Like a beaded bag or pictureframe or a dish or she, she got
married in the sixties and so of.
There's a lot of mid-centurymodern stuff that was in the house
that, which I got most of, um,
And so there was some kind of funkylike style sensibility that was
maybe back in style at the time.
(16:26):
So it was like, Ooh, there'slike a prop house here.
So I'd call up and say,mom, I need a X, Y, and Z.
I'm coming in on a train tonight andlike I live close to Penn Station in
New York, and the train out to LongIsland would be like half an hour.
35 minutes.
She'd be standing on the platform andI would just turn around and get on
the train on the other side, going backinto the city and it was like, hi, Mom!
(16:50):
See ya!
She was so great.
I miss her.
But she did leave me with a lotof things to remind me of her.
A lot of cool furniture and stuff, lots ofstuff, but it didn't, it didn't end there.
The collecting carried on after her.
So, but it did start a lot ofcollections and a lot of like
(17:10):
interest in things, everyday objects.
That's what I mostly collectis everyday objects that have a
function or kitchen tools that maybearen't made anymore or anything.
Anything that just looks beautifulor functional or Hes Betina.
I have a lot of cool stuff.
Mica (17:31):
Oh my gosh.
I love that there's a, a filmcalled No Country for Old Men.
I don't know if you've ever watched it.
It's with, uh, Tommy LeeJones and Javier Bardem.
It's a pretty dark movie.
There's a little bit of the movie wherehe goes into like a, a gas station,
like a small town Texas gas station,and he flips the coin and he tells the,
(17:53):
the teller to call it and depending onwhat his answer is going to be, will
determine if whether he kills him or not.
And there's a little exchange, butthe, the, yeah, the gas, uh, station
teller chooses the right side.
And so he, he lives anotherday and he's about to throw the
(18:14):
penny into the cash register.
And Javier Bardem's charactersays, "Don't do that.
That's a special penny.
That penny traveled years, miles, placesso that it can land right there with you.
That's a special penny.
Don't give that penny up."
And he walks out the store.
And that's so much how I feel aboutlike vintage shopping or anytime
(18:38):
I find like a really cool prop atan antique store, I think, wow.
Where has this prop, this, thiscup been this, this iron skillet?
What, what things has it seen?
What hands has touched?
What meals has this cooked thatnow it's right here in my studio,
in my home that I get to use it.
Like it gets a little bit more of life.
(19:00):
When I see prop, especially antique props.
I think, wow.
Who owned you before?
What was that person like?
I could geek out on that all day.
Robin (19:11):
I agree.
Some things, thingstravel around the world.
You don't know what countriesthey've been in, where they've
been, they've crisscrossed theglobe and ended up with you.
Mica (19:21):
Yes.
Like my, my husband got mea bag of salt from Malta.
We were watching this reality show.
It was like a cooking "saveour restaurant" type of shows.
One restaurant that wasfeatured, they featured this
small business of salt makers.
They're showing how they find their salt,how they gather it, how they process it,
(19:45):
and we found the name of the business.
We found their.
And I told Aaron, I was like,that's what I want for Christmas.
I want that bag of salt from Malta.
And he got it from me and itarrived and I'm holding it.
And I was just like, oh mygosh, this came from Malta.
(20:05):
Whole other side of the world.
What, what a journey that this bagof salt made to get to my hands.
I can go on about this topic.
What do you think it is aboutyour work that makes people
wanna hire you for their shoots?
Robin (20:20):
Well, New York is known for a lot of, lot of commerce, a lot of busyness.
People tend to shoot off emails toa lot of different stylists to see
who's available, but I do get a lot ofinquiries that I'll respond to right
away and tell 'em if I'm interested andthey'll find that I'm very easygoing
(20:40):
and I'm very methodical and detailoriented as well as being creative.
But you need both sides.
You need to be both to, toreally pull it off, right?
You can't just be likea free spirit creative.
You're working with a lot of items andthings that you have to keep track of
and, um, search for and, and obtain.
(21:00):
So I pretty sure that when somebodybrand new approaches me, I mean, I could
usually tell that they actually knowwho I am and that they followed me.
I get a little bit of a more personalnote either through Instagram or an email.
I mean, other times I thinkthey're just, somebody is like
looking for somebody quick.
(21:20):
You know?
They just need a body.
Mica (21:23):
I know what those emails are like.
Robin (21:26):
Yeah.
And I, but I, you know, I really doappreciate when I get repeat work from
certain people, and I've had some clientsfor five, six years on, you know, like a
once a year project that would come up.
People like to hire somebodythat they can count on.
That's reliable.
So if you do a good job,you'll get called back.
(21:46):
Just because starting with somebodybrand new is a lot harder than
just calling in somebody thatyou know will get the job done.
Mica (21:52):
Oh, absolutely.
Especially when there's alot of money on the line.
There's tight deadline on the line.
It's a risk to bring on someone new.
Robin (22:02):
Yeah.
But on the flip side, peoplelike to work with new people too.
They like to mix it up.
They like to just try something different.
Or maybe they're upgrading theirlook and they're changing things
and they wanna bring somebody in whohas a little bit different style.
But that's New York.
I think it's different everywhere else.
Each city and region has adifferent way of, of working.
(22:24):
And I see people in other parts ofthe country developing a nice little
team that they're always togetherwith, and I think that's great.
And I've certainly had that experience.
But it's not always the case.
You know?
You just have to be flexibleand, and open and know what to
do to hit the ground running.
You can't, you can't stumble.
Mica (22:44):
Mm-hmm.
Something you said that rings so true, yousaid that creatives need to be creative,
but on the flip side, they also need tobe organized and have systems in places.
That has been the biggest takeaway thatI've learned over the years as a creative.
(23:04):
Just learning to balance thetwo because the business side
is hard, but it's learnable.
Robin (23:12):
Yeah.
Unless you wanna have a business partner.
I always thought that would be nice tohave somebody who just goes out and gets
the jobs and negotiates and does all that,and then I'm doing the creative part.
But that's like having a rep, which Ihave had and that's been good at the time.
But you know, I don't have one currently,but it's a great thing if you do have
(23:33):
that ability to work with a rep who'slike selling your services for you
and doing all the bookkeeping so youcould just concentrate on the creative.
Mica (23:42):
That's a great balance.
I, I actually like that a lotbetter cuz some folks just
aren't good at the business side.
And, and, and let's say they do learnit and they realize I just don't like
it and I don't wanna talk numbers.
And I'd rather have someone dothat for me so that I can just do
what I do best, which is create.
(24:03):
You are a big proponent of collaborationbetween photographers and prop stylists.
What makes that kind ofpartnership so effective?
Robin (24:13):
Well, they are both creatives.
Coming at it from a little differentangle, I worked with photographers
for so many years that I kind oflearned the language of photography
and composition, and I picked upa lot seeing all the equipment set
up and just being in the studio.
But still, I can take a good picture, butI wouldn't bill myself as a photographer.
(24:38):
I, I prefer somebody whose sole or mainobjective is to get a great quality shot,
which would involve the lighting and the,the technical aspect that the edit, the
post-production, and all of those things.
Handling files.
I mean, there's so much to do.
I mean, there's, as far as composing agreat shot, lots of photographers work
(25:03):
completely on their own and do it all.
Prepping food and, and propping and,and lighting and setup and shooting
and editing and that's fantastic,but, it's nice to find somebody who
wants to collaborate with you and youcan go back and forth and they can
make suggestions, and you could makesuggestions, and you could try things.
(25:26):
It just makes for a better, either betterquality or more expedient photo shoot.
I mean, on a day that you've gottaget 25 shots, you definitely need
to separate the task, so you can'thave one person doing it all.
It's gotta separate.
And in that case you have a food stylist,a prop stylist, and photographer.
(25:47):
And then there could be anart director from the client.
Everybody is in on, has somesay in what it looks like, but
everybody's focusing on their job.
That is, that's the only way thatyou can crank out 25 shots in a day.
Yeah, ideally, like, usuallyit's eight recipes max.
If it's recipes, if it's like cookedfood, baked goods, anything like that.
(26:09):
I mean, things are somewhatprepped in advance and brought
up to the sta the stage of beingassembled or heated or decorated
or garnished or whatever it may be.
But I did work on a shootwhere I had to do 25 cheese
boards now, different cheeses.
Now, I was doing the propstyling and the food styling, so.
(26:31):
And it was, this was not cooked food,so that's why it was manageable,
but it was still arranging beautifuldifferent cheeses with their jams and
fruits and meat and herbs and flowers.
And I mean, it was a lot ofwork by the end of the day.
I was a little delirious, but you know,
Mica (26:53):
I mean you've earned that deliriousness cuz that's a lot.
Robin (26:57):
It was a lot.
And I could have an assistant at the endof the day come and help me pack because
I don't think I could stand at that point.
It was just a long day and thatwas a lot to squeeze in one day.
But think about it probably couldhave been done if it was one
person doing the whole thing, itwould've taken a week maybe to do
those or, or maze, whatever it is.
(27:17):
So it's really the way things areplanned around here and in most
big cities where it's like a wholeteam is hired for that shoot day.
So it has to be separated.
Now, if you're working fromyour own home studio, then you
have a whole different timeline.
You could be, the client might give youa week to accomplish a certain amount and
(27:38):
then another week for post-production.
So, I don't know, maybe atwo-week turnaround for the job.
I don't know exactly like how somebodylike you would plan it, but that's what
I'm assuming is, is pretty standard.
So you just think it just makes a lot ofsense because in my book I did outline
all the roles and what you need to do now.
So if you are just focusing on props,some people just like they're cooking
(28:00):
and they're making their recipes andthen they're like opening the cabinet
going, Hmm, what should I pull out?
What should I, what can I use?
What can I, oh, this is a good plate.
And they'll take outsomething that they have.
And it's something maybethey've used before a ton of
times or this way we're out.
We're paid to go out thereand find something unique and
different for every shoot.
(28:21):
So I don't like to use thingsmore than once in the same way.
Definitely certain pieces willmake, will peek in here and there,
but they're not like featured.
Mica (28:29):
Something you said earlier that I love.
You said that photographers andjust people in general in, in a
team approach a problem differently.
I totally agree with that.
Something that you've done for many yearsprobably isn't the most efficient way of
doing it, or there's always a better wayof styling something or doing something.
(28:52):
We can all learn from each other.
You can't get that from watching videos.
You just, you can't.
It has to be in person.
So anytime a food photographer, like anewbie reaches out to me and they're like,
how do I get better at food photography?
I'm like, go find some food stylist.
Go find some prop stylists.
Go find people and say,Hey, let's, let's go play.
(29:15):
Let's go do some portfolio work.
And that's how you learn.
That's how you get better.
Robin (29:19):
I like to collaborate a couple of times a year.
I certainly, or if there's just an ideathat someone has and that they approach
me and they wanna work on something,I'm like, sure, you know, I'll take it.
I, you, it's always good to keepthe portfolio fresh and it doesn't
matter whether it's a test shoot ora real job anymore, if you put it
in your portfolio, if it shows yourstrength, that's all that matters.
(29:43):
If it's beautiful work thatyou're proud of, it doesn't
matter what it was for , so.
Mica (29:47):
Yep, yep.
How can photographers getbetter at using props?
Robin (29:52):
Well, one thing to do is to try some different things in
a symbol, in a situation, likeswitch out different dishes.
Or different linens.
Practice using, like doing all thedifferent linen drapes and folds
and things that you see out there.
Try to define the look of theproject and make sure that the your
(30:19):
choices and props, your dishes, yourglassware, your flatware, linens,
all echo that mood of that shot.
Use something that's consistentwith the desired end result.
I'm really big on establishingthe theme and the style and
then establishing color palette.
(30:40):
And just bringing a lot of options.
Don't just say, this is the dish.
Definitely bringing options is key becauseyou never know until this the items
are on the plate, how they look on thatcolor, on that pattern, on that shape.
So what we like, what we do is usuallyask for a stand in like a little
(31:05):
bit of something or just one piecethat didn't, doesn't look so pretty.
You save the good one for the shotand use a stand in, set everything up,
make sure it looks right so you havethe coloring and everything is there.
You know what, what the colorsand tones in the food are.
And then when everything's set andyou've taken some test shots and
(31:25):
everything looks good, switch out.
Take, you could take the plate,or if you have the same plate, a
duplicate, you just like dress up thegood plate and then switch 'em out.
Sometimes you have to put some tape downon the set just to know exactly where the
positioning is, and they're very carefullylike, mark, which way is the front?
So they know, well we, this is camerafront and we wanna make it look
(31:48):
good from this angle, not the back.
That's not gonna be seen.
Mica (31:52):
That was great.
I recommend that our listeners ifthey want more pro tips that they
check out your book because yourbook is filled with all the pro tips.
And I wanna dive into that.
I wanna segue into that cuz Ihave your book and it is bomb.
(32:12):
I love it.
And I'm learning thingsthat I never considered.
When I plan out my shoots, I'vealways been like obsessed with
the food styling and I'm like, Ineed to get better food styling.
I wanna be a better food stylist.
But now I'm like, wow, the props havean, have just as much of an effect
on the food as the styling does.
(32:34):
I, I have all of these, like plates,random plates, things like that.
And like what you mentionedearlier, I, I actually would just
go and open, go to my prop closet.
I'm like, "I'll pick that one."
But now I'm like so much more intentional.
Before we dive into that, I just wantedto tell you that your book is amazing.
Your book is calledStyling Beyond Instagram.
(32:54):
What did you learn about yourselfat the end of writing this book?
Robin (32:59):
That writing a book is a lot of work.
I learned, that, uh, I pushed myselfto bar limits that I didn't even
believe could possible for the firsttime working on something like this.
Something I've thought aboutfor many, many years, but only
recently had that opportunity.
It was intense.
(33:19):
And actually I've been teaching thisstuff in the book for years already.
I was teaching at FIT for nine years, andthen I started teaching the doing The Prop
Styling Experience, which was one-on-one.
Like bootcamp workshops and thenalso went online during the pandemic.
So I've been talking about this,uh, material for a very long time,
(33:43):
but actually writing it so somebodycould understand, especially somebody
who's new to the, the business.
So there I would sometimes catchmyself writing in shorthand and
then being like, oh, wait a second.
Nobody's gonna know what I'm talkingabout, so I not only did I go back and try
to spell everything out so clearly that Ialso added a glossary at the end with some
(34:06):
names and styling words and, and thingsjust in case you don't know what I mean.
If I say PMS color or you know,something like, can't think off
the cuff what, uh, an example.
But I just found that I, Idid what I set out to do.
And it was very proud thatI, that I finished it.
(34:28):
But it's been a little bit of a, okay,like, let's relax and give myself some
room to breathe for a couple of months.
But I'm getting really good feedbackfrom everybody and I would love
some more reviews on Amazon.
Mica (34:43):
All right, y'all, you heard it here.
Let's put out those reviews.
Let's, let's support it.
Robin (34:49):
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Mica (34:50):
What I'm really liking about the book are.
Well, there are two things I, I love.
First, I, I love all theforms that you put in, like.
Robin (35:00):
The worksheets.
Mica (35:01):
The questionnaires.
The, uh, the, the invoice templates.
Like the checklists.
That's great because it just givesus an idea of like, this is what
we're supposed to be looking out for.
The other thing that I like and I'mreally enjoying are the testimonials.
That they're just really coolbecause they're like different
(35:22):
testimonials by different.
There's like photographers in there,there's a actual prop stylist in there.
It's coming from so manydifferent perspectives.
What I wanna know is what surprisedyou the most about the testimonial?
Robin (35:35):
Well, I wanted to spotlight and feature people who came from different
backgrounds and did things differently.
So some of them were students ofmine that have gone on to like make
themselves into a real stylist.
I mean, they did it.
Like I gave them theencouragement and some mentorship.
(35:56):
They went ahead and found them, eitherfound themselves an agent or got
themselves settled in a certain regionof the country, or, I mean, some went on
to do related things, not necessarily.
Some do a little bit of everything,but I'd like to show a variety
of the different people thatuse styling in their work.
(36:18):
So not only feature different typesof people that are like in directly
involved, but also people now ofshop owners has to take photos
to promote their businesses now.
So it's like a must for everybody.
So if you have a shop, you're not gonnanecessarily have the option to hire a
photographer to come in and shoot yourmerchandise or, or your handmade goods.
(36:40):
So everybody's gotta have a little studioarea set up in their home where like,
okay, if you make ceramics, it's like,okay, this comes out of the kiln, boom.
You know, everything's setup, the lighting, the camera.
The set and that's set up fortheir e-commerce, for their website
or Etsy store or whatever it is.
Now it's just such a, sucha part of everyone's life.
(37:03):
So I wanted people to see that you don'tonly have to be a professional prop
stylist to involve styling in your life.
So if it's something that you liketo do, you certainly have many,
many options and opportunities.
And then also the biggest thing now,I mean the work at home situation
is totally becoming so prevalentwhere you can work out of your home.
(37:27):
You don't have to be somebody that'sin a major city, you could be anywhere,
and you could have clients and youcould have things shipped to you,
and they don't have to be there.
And you could work on your own schedule.
So there's so many opportunities now.
The photo equipment likeindustry is booming.
I mean, More than ever.
(37:49):
Plus, what about people who arejust shooting with their phones?
Phones are fantastic now.
Mica (37:53):
Yeah.
I just got the new iPhoneand I've been testing it out.
Man, it is banging.
That's.
I can do so much with it.
I'm like, man.
I mean, I'm not gonna give upmy actual camera, but it's, it's
amazing what you can do now.
I could never, in 2004,2005, I never, ever, ever.
(38:16):
I got my first cell phone mysenior year in high school.
I was 18 years old.
It was a little Sprint flipphone, and it could take a very
pixelated, teeny, tiny square photo.
And I thought, this is the cool, lookhow freaking amazing technology is.
Robin (38:34):
Yeah.
Can I tell you a secret?
I hired a great photographer to shootmost of the full page pictures, but
we didn't shoot enough and I hadto supplement with some of my own
pictures, so some were taken on mycamera, but some were taken on my phone.
Mica (38:51):
That's amazing.
Now I'm gonna like go back and re like,analyze every photo to see which one.
Robin (39:00):
Let me know and you see if you can tell.
Mica (39:05):
But you raised a a great point about you know who your book caters to.
That it's not just professionalphotographers that should be reading this.
It's anyone who has a businessthat they need to promote.
My husband and I, at one point, wewere thinking about selling our house
(39:25):
and buying a house in a more trendierpart of Austin, and some of the houses
had it, it was titled Zoom Room.
And we're like, what?
What is that?
And I go like one ofthose weird sex rooms.
And so I looked it up andit is not a weird sex room.
It is a room specificallyfor Zoom meetings.
(39:49):
And I'm like, is that a thing now?
And I found an article abouthow to decorate your Zoom Room.
Like your back, what's behindyou that looks professional and
reflects who you are and it'sall trendy and things like that.
And there, and I'm like,there's a whole article on this.
Like this is the world we live in,that people have dedicated Zoom Rooms.
(40:12):
I thought that was the coolest thing.
So when you mentioned about like thisis for people who have a business to
promote or if they're doing like a videoor things like that, your book is doing
such a great job with teaching people.
Do you talk about the businessside and that's where you have the
questionnaires and the estimate worksheet,which I also think is bang in too.
(40:32):
I'm like, this is great.
What's the most important advice you hopeyour readers take away from that chapter?
Robin (40:38):
Oh, well, the worksheets of for being organized on point,
not stumbling through something,not knowing how to bill.
The biggest mistake that stylistsmake is not charging their
clients for props that they own.
And that they should know that this is aline item that must be included in your
(41:01):
estimate and that they just think youjust magically have all this great stuff.
Well, you've gotta let them knowthat, no, that's not the case.
These are my business tools, andif I were to go buy everything
new for you would've cost X.
So this is my rental fee.
And whenever that may be, I mean,you could do it by the piece or a
(41:23):
flat fee, which is what I usually do,depending on how many things I bring.
But you know, it helps me out byowning props that I don't have to
spend time hunting for everything.
But if there are things I do needto get, there are prop houses in
New York that I go to and that Irent from and per piece it's pretty
expensive to each item you pay for.
(41:45):
And I mean, hey, they have to make moneyto have that service and be in business.
So that's why that justifies the price.
So anybody that thinks you just havestuff, you know, maybe if it's like
one thing, okay, you bring like abowl or a dish with you to supplement
everything else that's being used.
But if you bring everything, you've gottamake sure, I mean, that could be, you
(42:06):
could be sitting on an additional $700to a thousand dollars to add to your
fee, and that's separate from your fee.
Mica (42:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I have a home studio and I use myoffice to do all my shoots and all
my clients, they come to my house.
I never charged a like studiousage fee or rental fee cuz I
figured it's my house, whatever.
And one of the food stylists that Iworked with, she was like, are you nuts?
She was like, you should definitely becharging a studio, studio usage fee.
(42:38):
You should be charging that.
She's like, you're disrupting your home.
People are coming to your home.
They're using your restroom, they're usingyour electricity, your wifi, your kitchen.
That should be included in your, in yourestimate, you should be charging a fee
or rental fee for your equipment too.
Robin (42:56):
Exactly.
All of your equipment that you'vespent thousands of dollars on.
You've gotta split that up amongstall your clients in a year and
add on a studio fee, a prop fee.
Sometimes I add in a kit feefor all the expendable things.
Like the cleaning supplies and thepaper towels and the everything that I
(43:17):
bring that get used, any kind of spraysand solutions and stuff like that.
Just like a basic $50 kit fee.
Mica (43:23):
And these are things that new photographers, new prop stylists, new
people coming in the industry, they wouldeither learn that by assisting someone
already in the business or they just wouldgo through their whole career missing
out on that and being taken advantage of.
Books like yours, Styling BeyondInstagram, is such a great
(43:45):
resource to have because these arethings that we just don't know.
I wanna take it to TheProp Styling Experience.
You, you touched on ita little bit earlier.
You, you wrote in one of your posts.
My feeling is that resources shouldbe shared, and I love that philosophy.
How did this belief impactyour approach to teaching?
Robin (44:05):
Nobody was really teaching, and that's why I saw an opening
there because you kind of hadto learn from someone before.
You had to do like anapprenticeship with someone and
they would teach you the trade.
And I wish somebody taught me things.
I, I learned overall a long periodof time by watching other people and
doing things my own and learning fromphotographers and figuring things out.
(44:28):
But I didn't have anybody take me undertheir wing and show me what to do.
So that's why I feellike I enjoy teaching.
I enjoy watching people learn somethingnew and blowing their mind with
something they never thought about.
And I, I like seeing them turn thateducation into a success story.
(44:51):
From teaching, I just, I just felt like,I mean, now so many people are giving
everything away on Instagram, everywhere.
It's like a video.
It's like how to dothis and how to do that.
It's like sometimes myhand's gonna explode.
It's like I don't wanna justlearn all day long, I just
wanna look at pretty pictures.
But that's what the way is now.
And it's sharing and it's like,it doesn't even matter who you
(45:14):
are, you could have learned.
I always say, you learned somethingyesterday, you teach it tomorrow.
There's a lot of that going on wherelike, oh, oh my God, that's a great tip.
Okay, then I'm gonna like show my audiencehow smart I am by doing this thing.
Right?
You see a lot of that out there.
And uh, some of it, it's like, someof it's good, but some of it's like
really sloppy and not professional.
(45:37):
And I just wanted to do.
I, I ran my class at FIT likeprofessional bootcamp, and
these were like college kids.
I had a great time teaching themand I did it for nine years.
But I wanted to teach grownups,who already knew what they wanted,
came in, contacted me, found mywebsite online, contacted me and
said, I'm interested in doing this.
(45:58):
I wanna come to New York and I wannaspend two, two and a half days with you.
And what we do is go over like hands-ontechnique and do just as many photo
shoots as many different areas that theywanna do or that we have time to do.
And then I was always like handing themlike a folder of worksheets and, and like
(46:21):
guide, like handouts in a folder that Ispent like $30 printing out at, at uh,
like the FedEx place or the copy shops.
And that was a lot of money.
I was like, here, here's all thebusiness stuff we talk about the
business, but that's what became this.
That's what became the book.
So now I can be like,here, here is my book.
(46:42):
I'm gonna do the creative here in person,and you can read this and we could talk
about the details and you have questions.
We could talk about all that.
But I wanted to put that out there.
So that was accessible.
And then we could do the creativetogether because that is kind of
an experiential learning process.
During the pandemic, I started teachingclasses online Zoom classes, and I had
(47:05):
like a wonderful repeat audience allthrough, like the whole beginning of 2020.
Where everybody was around.
So it was just like every weekI was doing another class.
I was just like on a roll.
I was just cranking outtopics for everything.
And it was just like here.
That same group of women wouldsign up every time and we
(47:25):
would, it was just so wonderful.
I met such great people that way.
And now things are differentbecause people are back to work and
they're not around the same way.
So now it's slowed down a little bit, butI'm trying ramp that up again in 2023.
Figure out the next move.
I have some new classes.
I do have a Prop Styling forFood Photography new class to do.
(47:48):
It's funny that that was one that I hadnot done because that was just such a
loaded topic, and that's what I do mostly.
But I, you know, I covered all theseother things, other classes like
composition and tabletop styling andstyling with flowers and lit styling
with linens have a lot of other topics.
But this needed time and landing.
(48:11):
So I don't know if you know Lauren CShort from the Food photography Academy?
Mica (48:16):
I do.
Yeah, I do.
I've taken a couple ofher classes actually.
Robin (48:20):
Yeah.
Well, she asked me to do, uh,to do a class of food, uh, prop
styling for food photography.
So we recorded that and it'sgonna be part, it's gonna be a
masterclass as part of her, uh,you know, her membership thing.
So, but right.
So that's like it for peoplewho's one of the recorded classes
(48:40):
that she's going to offer.
But I still will run it on my ownfor people who are not in that
enrolled in her school, if theywant to enroll in the school.
I mean, it looks fantastic.
But I am gonna do it myself as oneoff class in my whole class series.
Now, I, I kind of know whichones were more popular and I kind
of have to just schedule dates.
(49:02):
People just keep writing to me.
When are you starting,when are you starting?
So I'm very, uh, I'm excited that peoplewant to learn from me and I do not do
anything in this like slick automatedway that everybody else is doing online
with like prerecorded classes and like.
Mica (49:22):
Oh, so this is in real time.
Robin (49:24):
This is real time because I personally do not learn
well from a self-paced class.
I never finish anything.
That's just me and I know of the way Ilearn best is when I'm like with someone
and we're connecting and we're answering.
I'm able to answer questionsthat come up right on the spot.
(49:44):
People are allowed to comment and saythings, and so I do that and there is some
aspect of hands on which I love because,I tell 'em to bring certain things and log
in from the area where you'd be shootingand like set this up and then just email
it to me and I can open it and shareit right away and we can talk about it.
I love like real in-person learningand so I try to create that in-person
(50:09):
experience as best as I can.
Mica (50:11):
Ah, I love.
I love that.
I'm with you on the, the pre-recorded.
I mean, it takes a lot of effort for,for me to get through online courses.
I love that that's how you're gonnayou're gonna teach your courses.
Robin (50:25):
Yeah.
That's how I've been doing it,because I'm not like super tech
savvy and slick in that way.
So I've always shied away from these.
I mean, I know they've made all theseformats and, and services to make,
um, auto, you know, online classesand webinars and everything's so easy.
The whole process.
I'm just like, you know what?
Thank goodness for Zoom.
(50:46):
I decide I'm doing a class.
I advertise it.
People sign up and I'm like, we'rethere not a whole bunch of backend work.
I set up my space here.
I have my cameras in different locations,and I'm able to really connect with you,
and every time it's a little differentbecause it's, it's live and off the cup.
(51:06):
I have notes, but I might go intosomething different and sometimes I
may, my, my demo might be completelydifferent, so I'm always taking pictures.
I'm, I've got tons and tons of pictures,but I'm really excited about this Prop
Styling for Food Photography becauseI think that is probably the major
area of prop styling in general there.
(51:27):
That's where the most work is, andthat's probably the most popular
niche of the prop styling world.
So, yeah, so I hope people, uh,follow me when they hear this.
Hopefully they follow meon Instagram and sign up.
I have a thing on my links in myInstagram to get on my waiting list,
and I do a free class also that isreally called Styling by Instagram.
(51:51):
I was doing that class before the book.
Mica (51:54):
Is the class is the class what inspired the book?
Robin (51:57):
Well, the, the name of the book, right?
So the class is like a free class,which is like an intro and like a
little nutshell of what's in the book.
But that's only because ofcircumstance, because I was doing the
class first and then the book came.
So now it's all in a book, but208 pages of it would take me
like 10 hours, to speak it all.
(52:18):
But.
Mica (52:19):
But it's like a assigned reading when you do your classes.
Robin (52:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess so.
That's true.
I cover all the topics inseparate classes though.
And those are the creativehands on that I do.
So people, if they get on mymailing list, I just have to get it
together on dates and everybody'sgot a different time schedule now.
Mica (52:39):
What do you think is the biggest challenge facing prop stylists today?
Robin (52:52):
Well, the biggest challenge is that people think it's easy,
and they think anyone can do it.
And they think they can do it, and theythink it's the most fun part of the job.
So they wanna do it, but thenthey don't realize what the, how
much, how you can elevate theend result with a prop stylist.
(53:15):
So I'm not saying, I'm talkingabout clients, not your work
from home photographer who waslearning to do prop styling too.
Because I would say that they arein the prop styling world as well.
I'm not talking about them.
I'm talking about like a client whohires you and thinks that that's
the fun part of the job cuz I'mdoing the shopping and doing this.
But there's a lot of thingsthat you don't take into
(53:38):
consideration and you don't know.
I mean, I have worked with some superorganized clients, but a lot of times
they'll bring down the props thatthey have and we'll have those there.
And maybe we'll use them,but mine are usually better.
So they wanna use something that theybrought, you have to, you wanna make
them happy, and you're like, oh, Ilove this, and let, let's use that.
Mica (54:00):
Yeah.
And something you mentioned, it'sat the very beginning of your book.
You mentioned how over the years you'vehad so many people come to you and ask you
for tips and advice and, and you're like,that's such a loaded thing to ask me.
And so for this reason,this book exists for that.
(54:21):
If a prop stylist or someone looking toget into props came to you right here in
this very moment, what answer would yougive to them if they asked you for advice?
Robin (54:31):
On how to get started?
Mica (54:33):
Yeah.
Robin (54:35):
Well, yes, I do give that, uh, lots of tips in the book on how to
get started, but I think the numberone thing, the most important thing is
to really start talking about it andtelling people, I wanna get into this.
Do you know any photographers?
Do you know any stylists I can assist?
Do you know any people in thefood industry or any restaurants
(54:56):
that might need some photography?
Just try to, networking is reallyyour, your first thing that you should
do because you never know who you'regonna meet, who you're gonna be at
a party at, uh, like with and meet.
Make connections with if thereare any message boards or
anything around in your area.
(55:17):
I found some early collaborationsthrough Craigslist.
Mica (55:20):
Oh, Craigslist.
I love Craigslist.
Robin (55:23):
There's definitely, uh, a section there for creatives on Craigslist
and there's lots of last minute andeven in advance photo shoots that
people maybe aren't paying, but maybedoing like a, a styled shoot or a
test shoot or something like that.
So yeah, that's anotherone you wanna get in on.
Just getting in and doing andworking with other people.
(55:46):
Whether you are getting paid or not,you're just kind of learning and starting
to experiment, starting to just refineyour style and gain some experience.
So it doesn't matter if you'regetting paid in the beginning,
you just wanna say yes to a lotof things and carefully say yes.
You wanna make sure that it'ssomething you can deliver on.
(56:06):
I mean, there were a lot of timeswhere people would contact me when
I was working at FIT and say, um, doyou have a student that I can hire?
And then I would say, what's the work?
And then they woulddescribe the job to me.
And these were like companiesand they would want a student.
And I'd be like, okay, you could hirea student if you wanted to take like
(56:28):
three times as long, or you could hirea professional for the right amount
of money and get it done in a day.
Mica (56:34):
Those expectations just were like.
Robin (56:37):
Oh, but sometimes they would just, yeah, they would be like looking to save
money and they would want a student, andlike I, I don't have students first year
of college that are really ready to takethis on to the degree that you want from.
If it was something easy and simple,I would've totally referred somebody.
But the kinds of things that I wouldget would be like long involved,
(57:01):
heavy propping styling jobs, andit's like you should just spend
the money and have it done rightunless you wanna spend more money.
Doing it over when itdoesn't come out right.
I had some star students, I had somereally great students, but I still
don't think, not having even assisteda photographer or stylist or a food
(57:24):
stylist, I think you're not ready.
A lot of people say, just say yesto everything and just go out there.
And I'm like, be careful what yousay yes to and just make sure you can
handle it, because if not, you might getyourself into some sticky situations.
Mica (57:40):
Yes.
I mean is it's asking yourself, is thissituation setting me up for failure
or setting me up for for success?
One point that one of my formerprofessors, Frank Curry, said in, I
think it was two interviews ago, hesaid that education leaves room for
failure and as does portfolio work.
(58:03):
When you're working with a client,you have to be able to deliver
exactly what you say you're goingto deliver in exact amount of time
you say you're going to deliver it.
Robin (58:15):
Right?
It's possible that somebody mayrise to the occasion and do a
fantastic job, and I've heardthat and that's totally possible.
Mica (58:26):
I feel like you're protecting your students by telling these companies that.
What you're asking for is somethingthat my students are not ready for.
This is where they're atin, in their learning.
Robin (58:39):
Right.
And it's happened numerous times.
So I feel like people should be aware andbe educated on what they should expect
to pay for this service and they aretrying to pinch pennies and do it for
nothing, then you get what you pay for.
Mica (58:57):
What's the, the three triangle model?
The quick, cheap, and good.
Pick two.
Robin (59:03):
Ooh, that's good.
I like that.
Mica (59:05):
I love that.
Before I ask my final question,I've gotta say that this has been
an amazing interview and I lovedeverything that we've talked about.
What do you hope that thelisteners learn from you today?
Robin (59:21):
What else?
Let's see.
I, I hope they pick up my book and they'reinterested in the different angles and
the different topics that are in there.
Maybe there's something they never thoughtabout, so that's what I, I hope they learn
that it's a multifaceted type of job.
Type of career or discipline,whatever you wanna call it.
(59:43):
It's very, it's a multi-layered thing.
There really isn't a schoolprogram, not like years.
And you think about you go for yearsand years to learn a certain thing.
You go to medical school forlike 10 years of your life.
Or you go to something that's atwo, three year program and there
really isn't anything like this, anyprogram to learn this, that you really
(01:00:06):
have to learn from life around you.
You know, be inspired by things.
Always just be open to everything.
Look at everything.
Learn how to see things around you.
It's more like you look at a photographand you just turn the page, but stop
and look at how it was put together.
And look at the background and look atthe coloring, and look at everything.
(01:00:28):
Look in nature, look at all thedifferent flowers and, and botanical
things that can be used as props.
And through every, like, I love goingto looking at foreign magazines and
seeing what they're printing andwhat's going on, and design and style.
Go to museums, travel, Imean, that's all these things.
(01:00:48):
Influence you.
Like everybody gets some kind ofthings that stick with them from
your, some total of life experiences.
And I think that's a place where, asin any art form, like your photography
or you're an artist, you're apainter, you work in some medium.
Styling is is in line, is therewith all those things to the art
(01:01:10):
form, just like any of the other artforms, I hope they, uh, are inspired.
I hope try something new.
I hope they see things a different way.
Mica (01:01:20):
I love that.
To see things a different way.
That's great.
Where can the listenersfind you and support you?
Robin (01:01:29):
I am on Instagram and it's at Robin Zachary.
My name Robin, with an i.
And besides my Instagram, uh, Ihave thepropstylingexperience.com
is my teaching website.
And then I have robinzachary.comis my portfolio site, which
(01:01:50):
is badly in need of an update.
So I do have a listing page, aportfolio page at a a site called
Found Artists and you can find me thereand see my most recent work there.
I respond to direct messages, emails, geton my mailing list and they'll be sure to
let you know when those classes open up.
(01:02:11):
So hope to see everybody herein some form and I really
appreciate you having me here.
This is wonderful.
Mica (01:02:19):
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Robin (01:02:25):
I am feeling this is not the last of our friendship here.
Mica (01:02:29):
Heck no.
I I, I say this to everyone who.
Who I cross path with.
Um, I'm like, we're besties now.
You can't get rid of me.
So Robin, we are besties now.
Aw.
There's no getting rid of me.
Thank you so much for being on theshow and I'm signing up for that Prop
Styling for Food Photographers Workshop.
(01:02:51):
I'm excited about that.
Thank you so much for being a guest.
Welcome to the 18th episode of The Savory Shot.
Y'all already know me, and if you don't,my name is Mica McCook and I'm your host.
First, I just wanna saythank you for being here.
I know you have a million thingsyou could be doing right now, but
instead you're here with me and thatmeans the world to me, so thank you.
(00:24):
Gracias.
That's all I know.
I don't know any other.
I don't know any other ways tosay thank you in other languages.
Y'all, y'all, y'all.
Oooh.
I'm eager to get this par-taystarted, so I'm not going to
waste any time on today's intro.
(00:46):
Y'all, we have a truly incredibleguest with us today, and I have no
doubt that their story and insightswill leave a lasting impact on you.
I know it did for me.
Today's episode is all aboutstarting an unconventional career
and figuring it out as you go.
And if you're a freelancer, youknow what I'm talking about.
(01:08):
This is all relatable.
Hello.
My guest, Robin Zachary is a propstylist and has built a successful
career into an industry that isnot always easy to break into.
Y'all, we got into some real meatand potatoes in our conversation.
Robin shared the important lessonshe learned from her mother.
(01:30):
About the importance of usinganything and everything as a prop.
Y'all, Robin believes that anythingcan be a prop and has learned to save
everything because you never know whenit might come in handy for a shoot.
We talked about her course, TheProp Styling Experience, which helps
aspiring prop stylists and anyoneinterested in learning the skills
(01:53):
they need to succeed in the industry.
That means you food photographers.
One of the things that really stood outto me during our conversation was Robin's
new book, Styling Beyond Instagram.
Y'all, this book is all about taking yourprop styling skills to the next level
and creating truly standout images thatgo beyond just being Instagram worthy.
(02:16):
But before we get intothat, let's start the show.
(02:58):
I wanna start off by sayingthank you for, for joining me
and for trusting me with this.
Welcome, Robin to the show.
Robin (03:09):
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you for seeking me out andfinding me and writing to me.
You're just the right kindof person I'd like to talk to.
Mica (03:18):
Oh yes.
That makes me so happy.
That makes me so happy.
Well, I wanna dive right in.
Awesome, awesome.
So while I was starting to wear researchon you, I found your blog Prop Closet
and I thought it was the coolest thingand I'm just like, went through quite a
few years of posts and it was awesome.
(03:39):
But I wanted to find your very first post.
And I did, and it was in April, 2008and it was very like small minimal.
All that said, this is it.
I has begun to blog.
And it just made me laughbecause I remember 2008 being
like the coolest thing ever.
And starting a blog of my ownand I thought, oh my gosh,
(04:02):
I have so many thoughts.
I wanna know, what was your worldlike when you made that post?
Robin (04:07):
Oh, dear.
Well, the world, well my world, Iwas busy doing lots of things, um,
in photography and styling, and Ikind of, I, I wanted to talk about it
back then with so many things didn'texist yet, like Instagram and, uh,
I guess Twitter probably was around.
(04:28):
Sort of, but blogging wasfirst in social media really.
I mean so I put it out there, Ididn't know how to publicize it.
I didn't know how to monetize it.
I was just typing away.
And then, you know, I foundwriting very difficult actually.
But kind of second guess the thingsI said, even though I'd kind of
ramble on about certain things.
And it's interesting that youfound it because I, I still pay
(04:50):
to have it up there, on a Typepad,and I've never taken it down.
And occasionally somebody does find it.
If you do a little bit of digging, Idon't have it linked to anything really.
Well, I wanted to show whatit was like behind the scenes.
This was like, I always did wannawrite a book, but again, I didn't have
connections or know-how, even thoughI'd been in the magazine business for
(05:14):
a very long time, all my connectionswere in magazines, not in books.
They're two separate worlds.
Mica (05:20):
Oh, they're definitely two separate worlds in 2008.
I mean, before any kind of social media,how do you tell people what you do without
or how do you learn about what you do?
You mentioned in a few interviewsthat when you started out as a prop
stylist that there was no directpath and you had to figure it out
(05:43):
on your own as you went along.
As a, as a theater person,I totally get that.
Once we were done with school,they were just like fly bird.
And we're like, what?
What?
How do we get jobs?
When did it become clear to you thatyou were paving a career path that
future prop stylists would follow?
Robin (06:05):
Well, I started in magazines, as I said, and that's where I first
learned that it existed as a careerbecause I was a designer and artist.
I graduated with an art degree,like General Art, you know, from,
uh, the State University of NewYork at Binghamton, which is not
really known as an art school.
(06:25):
But I took the art program and whenI graduated, I, I actually had been
training at the school paper tolearn typography and, and layout.
So my first job jobs were in design,so I was designing pages but then I had
opportunities at early startup magazinesto be involved in creating the imagery.
(06:47):
And here's a story on a food story.
Well, they just likeRobin, go make it happen.
So I basically would either, we eitherhad, um, like a recipe developer or chef
or a restaurant that we worked with.
So I would go and get some plates andget some napkins and create a set and
bring a photographer and have it shot.
(07:09):
What was funny is those early one, veryearly shoot, we spent a whole lot of time
setting it up in the restaurant, doingthe lighting and the set, and the chefs
were making the dishes and I brought myown plates and they plated it beautifully.
We put it together.
We must have spent a couple ofhours getting the set ready.
(07:31):
And then when we were, we werelike, okay, bring the, the plate a
dish out and we're ready to shoot.
So everybody came out from thekitchen thinking that there was
gonna be some like extravaganzahappening for the photo shoot.
And you know, like for a foodshoot, it's just sitting there.
So they all come out, all the,everybody from the kitchen
and they're like just waiting.
And the photographer justgoes, snap, snap, snap.
(07:52):
You know, a few exposures and it's done.
They were expecting kind of somethingdazzling to happen that's kind of,
maybe they were thinking of it, ofa fashion shoot or something, but it
was very different experience all.
So all the work is really in thesetup and the preparation beforehand.
So that was very early, early days.
(08:13):
So what was somewhere?
Was I going with this?
I forgot.
Um,
Mica (08:19):
Something this is just a little tail end and then I'll bring it back
to the paving a career path question.
Is something you said that justmade me laugh because it's so
true about the expectation oflike what a, a food shoot is like.
It's like everyone expects it to be likethis great grand and vogue you know?
(08:39):
And it's like two orthree snaps and it's done.
It reminds me of thephotographer, Gregory Crewdson.
He is just an amazing photographer.
He does like fine art and he rentsout entire town, and it's this
huge production, like you wouldthink it's a whole ass movie.
He's got like smoke blowing andthere's not a single detail that's
(09:03):
missed and it all, you know, thisjust this built up, built up, built
up and action, and then click.
Done.
That's the shots.
It's like you're leading up to thisone click of a moment and that's it.
That's here and gone.
That surprised me the mostabout food photography.
Robin (09:24):
Now you can, you do a couple of options.
You might put a garnish, change thegarnish, put something else in what?
Move a prop there.
Move a prop there.
So you have a few options.
So could take a few minutes of,of tinkering with things on the
set to get it exactly right.
Generally there, there's so muchinvolved in the lead up to the shoot
that most people don't realize.
(09:47):
That's why I was like happy to be, beable to go through and spell it out.
How much time do you need to leave?
How much beginning the in fromthe inception of the project
to the day of the shoot.
If you wanna go back to my career path.
There.
Mica (10:02):
Hey, I, I like to let these interviews organically flow the
way that they're supposed to,so there are no wrong answers.
Whatever pops in your mind iswhat needs to be on the episode.
What we were talking about earlieris about paving a career path.
You had said in, in several interviewsthat there were no other prop stylists
(10:22):
that you knew of and you kind of hadto figure things out on your own.
Today I feel like we're definitelyspoiled in that we have so many mentors.
At what point did you.
Well, I guess these will be two questions.
You know, who are your mentors andat what point did you realize that
the path that you were taking, thatfuture proof stylist, prop stylist,
(10:45):
would look back on and go, okay, Robindid this, so I'm gonna do this too.
Robin (10:49):
Um, well, mentors for me, were hard, kind of hard to find.
My mentors were my editors at magazinesthat kind of told me what they were
looking for and trusted me to learn on thejob, which is basically how it unfolded.
Early on, I did meet a prop stylistnamed Sarah Avalon, who, she was the
(11:11):
first person I knew, and, um, shewas recommended by a photographer.
We were both friends with thesame photographer, so I would see
her at his studio all the time.
I'd see her scurrying around.
Props and paint and, andsketches and all kinds of things.
And I was like, now thatlooks like a fun job.
I was like trapped in a full-time jobat the magazine and I got to do lots of
(11:32):
styling jobs, but I saw her as having afreelance career, so we became friendly.
So she was really the first mentor,and I don't know that I had at the
time that I was doing it, I had beenart directing for so many years that
it became a just a natural flow.
When I decided to leave full-time creativedirector at my last job, I basically
(11:58):
had done styling in so many areas.
So whether it was like fashion, flowers,food, home decor, receptions, tableware,
beauty, cover shoots, you name it.
I had a lot of experience to go off of.
And all I knew is that I liked the ideaof doing more paired down quieter shoots.
(12:21):
When I first left that job, I wasdoing fashion styling and prop styling.
And I, so I did prob a couple ofyears of fashion styling, like
bridal fashion styling, which Iloved, traveled, and it was fun.
And then I just decided stilllife is much more chill.
Much more where I see myself,like personality wise.
(12:41):
I mean, I, I did hundreds and hundredsof fashion and beauty shoots with like
20 people there, and it, it's a lot.
Some people think it's glamorous andeverything, but you know what, it's
a lot, it's a lot of personalities, alot of egos, and you're just trying to
keep the peace to get everything done.
I found my calling in prop styling,and especially for food shoots.
(13:05):
Most of the work I do is for food shoots.
Mica (13:07):
That's so awesome.
And gosh, the, the bridal fashion shoots,uh, I totally understand like the,
the craziness and too many, I call itjust too many bosses in the same room.
Everyone has a deadlinethat needs priority.
It's like, how do you, howdo you work around that?
(13:28):
One story that I, I read of yoursthat I just, I loved, we talked about
your mom meeting you at the trainstation with the bag of props in hand.
And I was like, oh my gosh, that's,that's her, that's her first,
uh, partner in crime right there.
My, my friend Charlotte.
She's extremely close to both sides of,of her grandparents or her grandmothers.
(13:48):
I met both of her grandmothers.
When one of her grandmothers passed away.
She had this whole house tolook through, and at the time,
Charlotte and I had a, a food blog.
And she had all of these amazingprops and it's like these are
props for the blog, but this isa whole woman's life and history.
And you feel like you really get toknow the person through the things
(14:10):
that they hold onto over the years.
And so even though like I met hergrandmother once at Charlotte's
wedding, I felt like I knew her asa person just by the things that I
held in my hands that were of hers.
What is one thing that you learnedfrom your mother that has stuck
with you throughout your career?
Robin (14:29):
Let's see.
My mother just, she just wanted meto succeed, so she would do whatever
she could to help me in whateverbusiness idea I was coming up with,
or she would drive me into the city.
When we lived in Long Island forone of my early businesses in
high school, I painted t-shirts.
So we drove down to the Lower EastSide to buy like wholesale t-shirt.
(14:53):
She was always like whatever it was I wasinto, she provided me with the space and
the materials for just about anything.
If I learned anything from her, it'sto hold onto everything because she
never know when you're gonna need it.
So that's why I probably don't everhave to leave the house because I've
got anything I need here for any littlegadget or widget or gizmo for anything.
(15:20):
It's like something comes up that I haveto find that I haven't looked at in years.
It's like I know where it is.
I know where I lost last, saw it.
So I know like I could just reachinto this cabinet and pull it out.
Something like, oh yeah, Ihaven't seen that thing in a
while, and I know it's there.
And that's kind of whatour house was like.
It was, but it was a house and now it'san apartment, so it's a different story.
(15:44):
Like in a house, there'sjust endless room for things.
I mean, we had a pretty big house anda basement and I would tinker around
with things down in the basement allthe time with all the art supplies.
She definitely, if I wasworking on something like.
And I needed like a vintage bag.
I mean she had like, it was mostly thevintage stuff that I would get from her.
(16:04):
Like a beaded bag or pictureframe or a dish or she, she got
married in the sixties and so of.
There's a lot of mid-centurymodern stuff that was in the house
that, which I got most of, um,
And so there was some kind of funkylike style sensibility that was
maybe back in style at the time.
(16:26):
So it was like, Ooh, there'slike a prop house here.
So I'd call up and say,mom, I need a X, Y, and Z.
I'm coming in on a train tonight andlike I live close to Penn Station in
New York, and the train out to LongIsland would be like half an hour.
35 minutes.
She'd be standing on the platform andI would just turn around and get on
the train on the other side, going backinto the city and it was like, hi, Mom!
(16:50):
See ya!
She was so great.
I miss her.
But she did leave me with a lotof things to remind me of her.
A lot of cool furniture and stuff, lots ofstuff, but it didn't, it didn't end there.
The collecting carried on after her.
So, but it did start a lot ofcollections and a lot of like
(17:10):
interest in things, everyday objects.
That's what I mostly collectis everyday objects that have a
function or kitchen tools that maybearen't made anymore or anything.
Anything that just looks beautifulor functional or Hes Betina.
I have a lot of cool stuff.
Mica (17:31):
Oh my gosh.
I love that there's a, a filmcalled No Country for Old Men.
I don't know if you've ever watched it.
It's with, uh, Tommy LeeJones and Javier Bardem.
It's a pretty dark movie.
There's a little bit of the movie wherehe goes into like a, a gas station,
like a small town Texas gas station,and he flips the coin and he tells the,
(17:53):
the teller to call it and depending onwhat his answer is going to be, will
determine if whether he kills him or not.
And there's a little exchange, butthe, the, yeah, the gas, uh, station
teller chooses the right side.
And so he, he lives anotherday and he's about to throw the
(18:14):
penny into the cash register.
And Javier Bardem's charactersays, "Don't do that.
That's a special penny.
That penny traveled years, miles, placesso that it can land right there with you.
That's a special penny.
Don't give that penny up."
And he walks out the store.
And that's so much how I feel aboutlike vintage shopping or anytime
(18:38):
I find like a really cool prop atan antique store, I think, wow.
Where has this prop, this, thiscup been this, this iron skillet?
What, what things has it seen?
What hands has touched?
What meals has this cooked thatnow it's right here in my studio,
in my home that I get to use it.
Like it gets a little bit more of life.
(19:00):
When I see prop, especially antique props.
I think, wow.
Who owned you before?
What was that person like?
I could geek out on that all day.
Robin (19:11):
I agree.
Some things, thingstravel around the world.
You don't know what countriesthey've been in, where they've
been, they've crisscrossed theglobe and ended up with you.
Mica (19:21):
Yes.
Like my, my husband got mea bag of salt from Malta.
We were watching this reality show.
It was like a cooking "saveour restaurant" type of shows.
One restaurant that wasfeatured, they featured this
small business of salt makers.
They're showing how they find their salt,how they gather it, how they process it,
(19:45):
and we found the name of the business.
We found their.
And I told Aaron, I was like,that's what I want for Christmas.
I want that bag of salt from Malta.
And he got it from me and itarrived and I'm holding it.
And I was just like, oh mygosh, this came from Malta.
(20:05):
Whole other side of the world.
What, what a journey that this bagof salt made to get to my hands.
I can go on about this topic.
What do you think it is aboutyour work that makes people
wanna hire you for their shoots?
Robin (20:20):
Well, New York is known for a lot of, lot of commerce, a lot of busyness.
People tend to shoot off emails toa lot of different stylists to see
who's available, but I do get a lot ofinquiries that I'll respond to right
away and tell 'em if I'm interested andthey'll find that I'm very easygoing
(20:40):
and I'm very methodical and detailoriented as well as being creative.
But you need both sides.
You need to be both to, toreally pull it off, right?
You can't just be likea free spirit creative.
You're working with a lot of items andthings that you have to keep track of
and, um, search for and, and obtain.
(21:00):
So I pretty sure that when somebodybrand new approaches me, I mean, I could
usually tell that they actually knowwho I am and that they followed me.
I get a little bit of a more personalnote either through Instagram or an email.
I mean, other times I thinkthey're just, somebody is like
looking for somebody quick.
(21:20):
You know?
They just need a body.
Mica (21:23):
I know what those emails are like.
Robin (21:26):
Yeah.
And I, but I, you know, I really doappreciate when I get repeat work from
certain people, and I've had some clientsfor five, six years on, you know, like a
once a year project that would come up.
People like to hire somebodythat they can count on.
That's reliable.
So if you do a good job,you'll get called back.
(21:46):
Just because starting with somebodybrand new is a lot harder than
just calling in somebody thatyou know will get the job done.
Mica (21:52):
Oh, absolutely.
Especially when there's alot of money on the line.
There's tight deadline on the line.
It's a risk to bring on someone new.
Robin (22:02):
Yeah.
But on the flip side, peoplelike to work with new people too.
They like to mix it up.
They like to just try something different.
Or maybe they're upgrading theirlook and they're changing things
and they wanna bring somebody in whohas a little bit different style.
But that's New York.
I think it's different everywhere else.
Each city and region has adifferent way of, of working.
(22:24):
And I see people in other parts ofthe country developing a nice little
team that they're always togetherwith, and I think that's great.
And I've certainly had that experience.
But it's not always the case.
You know?
You just have to be flexibleand, and open and know what to
do to hit the ground running.
You can't, you can't stumble.
Mica (22:44):
Mm-hmm.
Something you said that rings so true, yousaid that creatives need to be creative,
but on the flip side, they also need tobe organized and have systems in places.
That has been the biggest takeaway thatI've learned over the years as a creative.
(23:04):
Just learning to balance thetwo because the business side
is hard, but it's learnable.
Robin (23:12):
Yeah.
Unless you wanna have a business partner.
I always thought that would be nice tohave somebody who just goes out and gets
the jobs and negotiates and does all that,and then I'm doing the creative part.
But that's like having a rep, which Ihave had and that's been good at the time.
But you know, I don't have one currently,but it's a great thing if you do have
(23:33):
that ability to work with a rep who'slike selling your services for you
and doing all the bookkeeping so youcould just concentrate on the creative.
Mica (23:42):
That's a great balance.
I, I actually like that a lotbetter cuz some folks just
aren't good at the business side.
And, and, and let's say they do learnit and they realize I just don't like
it and I don't wanna talk numbers.
And I'd rather have someone dothat for me so that I can just do
what I do best, which is create.
(24:03):
You are a big proponent of collaborationbetween photographers and prop stylists.
What makes that kind ofpartnership so effective?
Robin (24:13):
Well, they are both creatives.
Coming at it from a little differentangle, I worked with photographers
for so many years that I kind oflearned the language of photography
and composition, and I picked upa lot seeing all the equipment set
up and just being in the studio.
But still, I can take a good picture, butI wouldn't bill myself as a photographer.
(24:38):
I, I prefer somebody whose sole or mainobjective is to get a great quality shot,
which would involve the lighting and the,the technical aspect that the edit, the
post-production, and all of those things.
Handling files.
I mean, there's so much to do.
I mean, there's, as far as composing agreat shot, lots of photographers work
(25:03):
completely on their own and do it all.
Prepping food and, and propping and,and lighting and setup and shooting
and editing and that's fantastic,but, it's nice to find somebody who
wants to collaborate with you and youcan go back and forth and they can
make suggestions, and you could makesuggestions, and you could try things.
(25:26):
It just makes for a better, either betterquality or more expedient photo shoot.
I mean, on a day that you've gottaget 25 shots, you definitely need
to separate the task, so you can'thave one person doing it all.
It's gotta separate.
And in that case you have a food stylist,a prop stylist, and photographer.
(25:47):
And then there could be anart director from the client.
Everybody is in on, has somesay in what it looks like, but
everybody's focusing on their job.
That is, that's the only way thatyou can crank out 25 shots in a day.
Yeah, ideally, like, usuallyit's eight recipes max.
If it's recipes, if it's like cookedfood, baked goods, anything like that.
(26:09):
I mean, things are somewhatprepped in advance and brought
up to the sta the stage of beingassembled or heated or decorated
or garnished or whatever it may be.
But I did work on a shootwhere I had to do 25 cheese
boards now, different cheeses.
Now, I was doing the propstyling and the food styling, so.
(26:31):
And it was, this was not cooked food,so that's why it was manageable,
but it was still arranging beautifuldifferent cheeses with their jams and
fruits and meat and herbs and flowers.
And I mean, it was a lot ofwork by the end of the day.
I was a little delirious, but you know,
Mica (26:53):
I mean you've earned that deliriousness cuz that's a lot.
Robin (26:57):
It was a lot.
And I could have an assistant at the endof the day come and help me pack because
I don't think I could stand at that point.
It was just a long day and thatwas a lot to squeeze in one day.
But think about it probably couldhave been done if it was one
person doing the whole thing, itwould've taken a week maybe to do
those or, or maze, whatever it is.
(27:17):
So it's really the way things areplanned around here and in most
big cities where it's like a wholeteam is hired for that shoot day.
So it has to be separated.
Now, if you're working fromyour own home studio, then you
have a whole different timeline.
You could be, the client might give youa week to accomplish a certain amount and
(27:38):
then another week for post-production.
So, I don't know, maybe atwo-week turnaround for the job.
I don't know exactly like how somebodylike you would plan it, but that's what
I'm assuming is, is pretty standard.
So you just think it just makes a lot ofsense because in my book I did outline
all the roles and what you need to do now.
So if you are just focusing on props,some people just like they're cooking
(28:00):
and they're making their recipes andthen they're like opening the cabinet
going, Hmm, what should I pull out?
What should I, what can I use?
What can I, oh, this is a good plate.
And they'll take outsomething that they have.
And it's something maybethey've used before a ton of
times or this way we're out.
We're paid to go out thereand find something unique and
different for every shoot.
(28:21):
So I don't like to use thingsmore than once in the same way.
Definitely certain pieces willmake, will peek in here and there,
but they're not like featured.
Mica (28:29):
Something you said earlier that I love.
You said that photographers andjust people in general in, in a
team approach a problem differently.
I totally agree with that.
Something that you've done for many yearsprobably isn't the most efficient way of
doing it, or there's always a better wayof styling something or doing something.
(28:52):
We can all learn from each other.
You can't get that from watching videos.
You just, you can't.
It has to be in person.
So anytime a food photographer, like anewbie reaches out to me and they're like,
how do I get better at food photography?
I'm like, go find some food stylist.
Go find some prop stylists.
Go find people and say,Hey, let's, let's go play.
(29:15):
Let's go do some portfolio work.
And that's how you learn.
That's how you get better.
Robin (29:19):
I like to collaborate a couple of times a year.
I certainly, or if there's just an ideathat someone has and that they approach
me and they wanna work on something,I'm like, sure, you know, I'll take it.
I, you, it's always good to keepthe portfolio fresh and it doesn't
matter whether it's a test shoot ora real job anymore, if you put it
in your portfolio, if it shows yourstrength, that's all that matters.
(29:43):
If it's beautiful work thatyou're proud of, it doesn't
matter what it was for , so.
Mica (29:47):
Yep, yep.
How can photographers getbetter at using props?
Robin (29:52):
Well, one thing to do is to try some different things in
a symbol, in a situation, likeswitch out different dishes.
Or different linens.
Practice using, like doing all thedifferent linen drapes and folds
and things that you see out there.
Try to define the look of theproject and make sure that the your
(30:19):
choices and props, your dishes, yourglassware, your flatware, linens,
all echo that mood of that shot.
Use something that's consistentwith the desired end result.
I'm really big on establishingthe theme and the style and
then establishing color palette.
(30:40):
And just bringing a lot of options.
Don't just say, this is the dish.
Definitely bringing options is key becauseyou never know until this the items
are on the plate, how they look on thatcolor, on that pattern, on that shape.
So what we like, what we do is usuallyask for a stand in like a little
(31:05):
bit of something or just one piecethat didn't, doesn't look so pretty.
You save the good one for the shotand use a stand in, set everything up,
make sure it looks right so you havethe coloring and everything is there.
You know what, what the colorsand tones in the food are.
And then when everything's set andyou've taken some test shots and
(31:25):
everything looks good, switch out.
Take, you could take the plate,or if you have the same plate, a
duplicate, you just like dress up thegood plate and then switch 'em out.
Sometimes you have to put some tape downon the set just to know exactly where the
positioning is, and they're very carefullylike, mark, which way is the front?
So they know, well we, this is camerafront and we wanna make it look
(31:48):
good from this angle, not the back.
That's not gonna be seen.
Mica (31:52):
That was great.
I recommend that our listeners ifthey want more pro tips that they
check out your book because yourbook is filled with all the pro tips.
And I wanna dive into that.
I wanna segue into that cuz Ihave your book and it is bomb.
(32:12):
I love it.
And I'm learning thingsthat I never considered.
When I plan out my shoots, I'vealways been like obsessed with
the food styling and I'm like, Ineed to get better food styling.
I wanna be a better food stylist.
But now I'm like, wow, the props havean, have just as much of an effect
on the food as the styling does.
(32:34):
I, I have all of these, like plates,random plates, things like that.
And like what you mentionedearlier, I, I actually would just
go and open, go to my prop closet.
I'm like, "I'll pick that one."
But now I'm like so much more intentional.
Before we dive into that, I just wantedto tell you that your book is amazing.
Your book is calledStyling Beyond Instagram.
(32:54):
What did you learn about yourselfat the end of writing this book?
Robin (32:59):
That writing a book is a lot of work.
I learned, that, uh, I pushed myselfto bar limits that I didn't even
believe could possible for the firsttime working on something like this.
Something I've thought aboutfor many, many years, but only
recently had that opportunity.
It was intense.
(33:19):
And actually I've been teaching thisstuff in the book for years already.
I was teaching at FIT for nine years, andthen I started teaching the doing The Prop
Styling Experience, which was one-on-one.
Like bootcamp workshops and thenalso went online during the pandemic.
So I've been talking about this,uh, material for a very long time,
(33:43):
but actually writing it so somebodycould understand, especially somebody
who's new to the, the business.
So there I would sometimes catchmyself writing in shorthand and
then being like, oh, wait a second.
Nobody's gonna know what I'm talkingabout, so I not only did I go back and try
to spell everything out so clearly that Ialso added a glossary at the end with some
(34:06):
names and styling words and, and thingsjust in case you don't know what I mean.
If I say PMS color or you know,something like, can't think off
the cuff what, uh, an example.
But I just found that I, Idid what I set out to do.
And it was very proud thatI, that I finished it.
(34:28):
But it's been a little bit of a, okay,like, let's relax and give myself some
room to breathe for a couple of months.
But I'm getting really good feedbackfrom everybody and I would love
some more reviews on Amazon.
Mica (34:43):
All right, y'all, you heard it here.
Let's put out those reviews.
Let's, let's support it.
Robin (34:49):
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Mica (34:50):
What I'm really liking about the book are.
Well, there are two things I, I love.
First, I, I love all theforms that you put in, like.
Robin (35:00):
The worksheets.
Mica (35:01):
The questionnaires.
The, uh, the, the invoice templates.
Like the checklists.
That's great because it just givesus an idea of like, this is what
we're supposed to be looking out for.
The other thing that I like and I'mreally enjoying are the testimonials.
That they're just really coolbecause they're like different
(35:22):
testimonials by different.
There's like photographers in there,there's a actual prop stylist in there.
It's coming from so manydifferent perspectives.
What I wanna know is what surprisedyou the most about the testimonial?
Robin (35:35):
Well, I wanted to spotlight and feature people who came from different
backgrounds and did things differently.
So some of them were students ofmine that have gone on to like make
themselves into a real stylist.
I mean, they did it.
Like I gave them theencouragement and some mentorship.
(35:56):
They went ahead and found them, eitherfound themselves an agent or got
themselves settled in a certain regionof the country, or, I mean, some went on
to do related things, not necessarily.
Some do a little bit of everything,but I'd like to show a variety
of the different people thatuse styling in their work.
(36:18):
So not only feature different typesof people that are like in directly
involved, but also people now ofshop owners has to take photos
to promote their businesses now.
So it's like a must for everybody.
So if you have a shop, you're not gonnanecessarily have the option to hire a
photographer to come in and shoot yourmerchandise or, or your handmade goods.
(36:40):
So everybody's gotta have a little studioarea set up in their home where like,
okay, if you make ceramics, it's like,okay, this comes out of the kiln, boom.
You know, everything's setup, the lighting, the camera.
The set and that's set up fortheir e-commerce, for their website
or Etsy store or whatever it is.
Now it's just such a, sucha part of everyone's life.
(37:03):
So I wanted people to see that you don'tonly have to be a professional prop
stylist to involve styling in your life.
So if it's something that you liketo do, you certainly have many,
many options and opportunities.
And then also the biggest thing now,I mean the work at home situation
is totally becoming so prevalentwhere you can work out of your home.
(37:27):
You don't have to be somebody that'sin a major city, you could be anywhere,
and you could have clients and youcould have things shipped to you,
and they don't have to be there.
And you could work on your own schedule.
So there's so many opportunities now.
The photo equipment likeindustry is booming.
I mean, More than ever.
(37:49):
Plus, what about people who arejust shooting with their phones?
Phones are fantastic now.
Mica (37:53):
Yeah.
I just got the new iPhoneand I've been testing it out.
Man, it is banging.
That's.
I can do so much with it.
I'm like, man.
I mean, I'm not gonna give upmy actual camera, but it's, it's
amazing what you can do now.
I could never, in 2004,2005, I never, ever, ever.
(38:16):
I got my first cell phone mysenior year in high school.
I was 18 years old.
It was a little Sprint flipphone, and it could take a very
pixelated, teeny, tiny square photo.
And I thought, this is the cool, lookhow freaking amazing technology is.
Robin (38:34):
Yeah.
Can I tell you a secret?
I hired a great photographer to shootmost of the full page pictures, but
we didn't shoot enough and I hadto supplement with some of my own
pictures, so some were taken on mycamera, but some were taken on my phone.
Mica (38:51):
That's amazing.
Now I'm gonna like go back and re like,analyze every photo to see which one.
Robin (39:00):
Let me know and you see if you can tell.
Mica (39:05):
But you raised a a great point about you know who your book caters to.
That it's not just professionalphotographers that should be reading this.
It's anyone who has a businessthat they need to promote.
My husband and I, at one point, wewere thinking about selling our house
(39:25):
and buying a house in a more trendierpart of Austin, and some of the houses
had it, it was titled Zoom Room.
And we're like, what?
What is that?
And I go like one ofthose weird sex rooms.
And so I looked it up andit is not a weird sex room.
It is a room specificallyfor Zoom meetings.
(39:49):
And I'm like, is that a thing now?
And I found an article abouthow to decorate your Zoom Room.
Like your back, what's behindyou that looks professional and
reflects who you are and it'sall trendy and things like that.
And there, and I'm like,there's a whole article on this.
Like this is the world we live in,that people have dedicated Zoom Rooms.
(40:12):
I thought that was the coolest thing.
So when you mentioned about like thisis for people who have a business to
promote or if they're doing like a videoor things like that, your book is doing
such a great job with teaching people.
Do you talk about the businessside and that's where you have the
questionnaires and the estimate worksheet,which I also think is bang in too.
(40:32):
I'm like, this is great.
What's the most important advice you hopeyour readers take away from that chapter?
Robin (40:38):
Oh, well, the worksheets of for being organized on point,
not stumbling through something,not knowing how to bill.
The biggest mistake that stylistsmake is not charging their
clients for props that they own.
And that they should know that this is aline item that must be included in your
(41:01):
estimate and that they just think youjust magically have all this great stuff.
Well, you've gotta let them knowthat, no, that's not the case.
These are my business tools, andif I were to go buy everything
new for you would've cost X.
So this is my rental fee.
And whenever that may be, I mean,you could do it by the piece or a
(41:23):
flat fee, which is what I usually do,depending on how many things I bring.
But you know, it helps me out byowning props that I don't have to
spend time hunting for everything.
But if there are things I do needto get, there are prop houses in
New York that I go to and that Irent from and per piece it's pretty
expensive to each item you pay for.
(41:45):
And I mean, hey, they have to make moneyto have that service and be in business.
So that's why that justifies the price.
So anybody that thinks you just havestuff, you know, maybe if it's like
one thing, okay, you bring like abowl or a dish with you to supplement
everything else that's being used.
But if you bring everything, you've gottamake sure, I mean, that could be, you
(42:06):
could be sitting on an additional $700to a thousand dollars to add to your
fee, and that's separate from your fee.
Mica (42:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I have a home studio and I use myoffice to do all my shoots and all
my clients, they come to my house.
I never charged a like studiousage fee or rental fee cuz I
figured it's my house, whatever.
And one of the food stylists that Iworked with, she was like, are you nuts?
She was like, you should definitely becharging a studio, studio usage fee.
(42:38):
You should be charging that.
She's like, you're disrupting your home.
People are coming to your home.
They're using your restroom, they're usingyour electricity, your wifi, your kitchen.
That should be included in your, in yourestimate, you should be charging a fee
or rental fee for your equipment too.
Robin (42:56):
Exactly.
All of your equipment that you'vespent thousands of dollars on.
You've gotta split that up amongstall your clients in a year and
add on a studio fee, a prop fee.
Sometimes I add in a kit feefor all the expendable things.
Like the cleaning supplies and thepaper towels and the everything that I
(43:17):
bring that get used, any kind of spraysand solutions and stuff like that.
Just like a basic $50 kit fee.
Mica (43:23):
And these are things that new photographers, new prop stylists, new
people coming in the industry, they wouldeither learn that by assisting someone
already in the business or they just wouldgo through their whole career missing
out on that and being taken advantage of.
Books like yours, Styling BeyondInstagram, is such a great
(43:45):
resource to have because these arethings that we just don't know.
I wanna take it to TheProp Styling Experience.
You, you touched on ita little bit earlier.
You, you wrote in one of your posts.
My feeling is that resources shouldbe shared, and I love that philosophy.
How did this belief impactyour approach to teaching?
Robin (44:05):
Nobody was really teaching, and that's why I saw an opening
there because you kind of hadto learn from someone before.
You had to do like anapprenticeship with someone and
they would teach you the trade.
And I wish somebody taught me things.
I, I learned overall a long periodof time by watching other people and
doing things my own and learning fromphotographers and figuring things out.
(44:28):
But I didn't have anybody take me undertheir wing and show me what to do.
So that's why I feellike I enjoy teaching.
I enjoy watching people learn somethingnew and blowing their mind with
something they never thought about.
And I, I like seeing them turn thateducation into a success story.
(44:51):
From teaching, I just, I just felt like,I mean, now so many people are giving
everything away on Instagram, everywhere.
It's like a video.
It's like how to dothis and how to do that.
It's like sometimes myhand's gonna explode.
It's like I don't wanna justlearn all day long, I just
wanna look at pretty pictures.
But that's what the way is now.
And it's sharing and it's like,it doesn't even matter who you
(45:14):
are, you could have learned.
I always say, you learned somethingyesterday, you teach it tomorrow.
There's a lot of that going on wherelike, oh, oh my God, that's a great tip.
Okay, then I'm gonna like show my audiencehow smart I am by doing this thing.
Right?
You see a lot of that out there.
And uh, some of it, it's like, someof it's good, but some of it's like
really sloppy and not professional.
(45:37):
And I just wanted to do.
I, I ran my class at FIT likeprofessional bootcamp, and
these were like college kids.
I had a great time teaching themand I did it for nine years.
But I wanted to teach grownups,who already knew what they wanted,
came in, contacted me, found mywebsite online, contacted me and
said, I'm interested in doing this.
(45:58):
I wanna come to New York and I wannaspend two, two and a half days with you.
And what we do is go over like hands-ontechnique and do just as many photo
shoots as many different areas that theywanna do or that we have time to do.
And then I was always like handing themlike a folder of worksheets and, and like
(46:21):
guide, like handouts in a folder that Ispent like $30 printing out at, at uh,
like the FedEx place or the copy shops.
And that was a lot of money.
I was like, here, here's all thebusiness stuff we talk about the
business, but that's what became this.
That's what became the book.
So now I can be like,here, here is my book.
(46:42):
I'm gonna do the creative here in person,and you can read this and we could talk
about the details and you have questions.
We could talk about all that.
But I wanted to put that out there.
So that was accessible.
And then we could do the creativetogether because that is kind of
an experiential learning process.
During the pandemic, I started teachingclasses online Zoom classes, and I had
(47:05):
like a wonderful repeat audience allthrough, like the whole beginning of 2020.
Where everybody was around.
So it was just like every weekI was doing another class.
I was just like on a roll.
I was just cranking outtopics for everything.
And it was just like here.
That same group of women wouldsign up every time and we
(47:25):
would, it was just so wonderful.
I met such great people that way.
And now things are differentbecause people are back to work and
they're not around the same way.
So now it's slowed down a little bit, butI'm trying ramp that up again in 2023.
Figure out the next move.
I have some new classes.
I do have a Prop Styling forFood Photography new class to do.
(47:48):
It's funny that that was one that I hadnot done because that was just such a
loaded topic, and that's what I do mostly.
But I, you know, I covered all theseother things, other classes like
composition and tabletop styling andstyling with flowers and lit styling
with linens have a lot of other topics.
But this needed time and landing.
(48:11):
So I don't know if you know Lauren CShort from the Food photography Academy?
Mica (48:16):
I do.
Yeah, I do.
I've taken a couple ofher classes actually.
Robin (48:20):
Yeah.
Well, she asked me to do, uh,to do a class of food, uh, prop
styling for food photography.
So we recorded that and it'sgonna be part, it's gonna be a
masterclass as part of her, uh,you know, her membership thing.
So, but right.
So that's like it for peoplewho's one of the recorded classes
(48:40):
that she's going to offer.
But I still will run it on my ownfor people who are not in that
enrolled in her school, if theywant to enroll in the school.
I mean, it looks fantastic.
But I am gonna do it myself as oneoff class in my whole class series.
Now, I, I kind of know whichones were more popular and I kind
of have to just schedule dates.
(49:02):
People just keep writing to me.
When are you starting,when are you starting?
So I'm very, uh, I'm excited that peoplewant to learn from me and I do not do
anything in this like slick automatedway that everybody else is doing online
with like prerecorded classes and like.
Mica (49:22):
Oh, so this is in real time.
Robin (49:24):
This is real time because I personally do not learn
well from a self-paced class.
I never finish anything.
That's just me and I know of the way Ilearn best is when I'm like with someone
and we're connecting and we're answering.
I'm able to answer questionsthat come up right on the spot.
(49:44):
People are allowed to comment and saythings, and so I do that and there is some
aspect of hands on which I love because,I tell 'em to bring certain things and log
in from the area where you'd be shootingand like set this up and then just email
it to me and I can open it and shareit right away and we can talk about it.
I love like real in-person learningand so I try to create that in-person
(50:09):
experience as best as I can.
Mica (50:11):
Ah, I love.
I love that.
I'm with you on the, the pre-recorded.
I mean, it takes a lot of effort for,for me to get through online courses.
I love that that's how you're gonnayou're gonna teach your courses.
Robin (50:25):
Yeah.
That's how I've been doing it,because I'm not like super tech
savvy and slick in that way.
So I've always shied away from these.
I mean, I know they've made all theseformats and, and services to make,
um, auto, you know, online classesand webinars and everything's so easy.
The whole process.
I'm just like, you know what?
Thank goodness for Zoom.
(50:46):
I decide I'm doing a class.
I advertise it.
People sign up and I'm like, we'rethere not a whole bunch of backend work.
I set up my space here.
I have my cameras in different locations,and I'm able to really connect with you,
and every time it's a little differentbecause it's, it's live and off the cup.
(51:06):
I have notes, but I might go intosomething different and sometimes I
may, my, my demo might be completelydifferent, so I'm always taking pictures.
I'm, I've got tons and tons of pictures,but I'm really excited about this Prop
Styling for Food Photography becauseI think that is probably the major
area of prop styling in general there.
(51:27):
That's where the most work is, andthat's probably the most popular
niche of the prop styling world.
So, yeah, so I hope people, uh,follow me when they hear this.
Hopefully they follow meon Instagram and sign up.
I have a thing on my links in myInstagram to get on my waiting list,
and I do a free class also that isreally called Styling by Instagram.
(51:51):
I was doing that class before the book.
Mica (51:54):
Is the class is the class what inspired the book?
Robin (51:57):
Well, the, the name of the book, right?
So the class is like a free class,which is like an intro and like a
little nutshell of what's in the book.
But that's only because ofcircumstance, because I was doing the
class first and then the book came.
So now it's all in a book, but208 pages of it would take me
like 10 hours, to speak it all.
(52:18):
But.
Mica (52:19):
But it's like a assigned reading when you do your classes.
Robin (52:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess so.
That's true.
I cover all the topics inseparate classes though.
And those are the creativehands on that I do.
So people, if they get on mymailing list, I just have to get it
together on dates and everybody'sgot a different time schedule now.
Mica (52:39):
What do you think is the biggest challenge facing prop stylists today?
Robin (52:52):
Well, the biggest challenge is that people think it's easy,
and they think anyone can do it.
And they think they can do it, and theythink it's the most fun part of the job.
So they wanna do it, but thenthey don't realize what the, how
much, how you can elevate theend result with a prop stylist.
(53:15):
So I'm not saying, I'm talkingabout clients, not your work
from home photographer who waslearning to do prop styling too.
Because I would say that they arein the prop styling world as well.
I'm not talking about them.
I'm talking about like a client whohires you and thinks that that's
the fun part of the job cuz I'mdoing the shopping and doing this.
But there's a lot of thingsthat you don't take into
(53:38):
consideration and you don't know.
I mean, I have worked with some superorganized clients, but a lot of times
they'll bring down the props thatthey have and we'll have those there.
And maybe we'll use them,but mine are usually better.
So they wanna use something that theybrought, you have to, you wanna make
them happy, and you're like, oh, Ilove this, and let, let's use that.
Mica (54:00):
Yeah.
And something you mentioned, it'sat the very beginning of your book.
You mentioned how over the years you'vehad so many people come to you and ask you
for tips and advice and, and you're like,that's such a loaded thing to ask me.
And so for this reason,this book exists for that.
(54:21):
If a prop stylist or someone looking toget into props came to you right here in
this very moment, what answer would yougive to them if they asked you for advice?
Robin (54:31):
On how to get started?
Mica (54:33):
Yeah.
Robin (54:35):
Well, yes, I do give that, uh, lots of tips in the book on how to
get started, but I think the numberone thing, the most important thing is
to really start talking about it andtelling people, I wanna get into this.
Do you know any photographers?
Do you know any stylists I can assist?
Do you know any people in thefood industry or any restaurants
(54:56):
that might need some photography?
Just try to, networking is reallyyour, your first thing that you should
do because you never know who you'regonna meet, who you're gonna be at
a party at, uh, like with and meet.
Make connections with if thereare any message boards or
anything around in your area.
(55:17):
I found some early collaborationsthrough Craigslist.
Mica (55:20):
Oh, Craigslist.
I love Craigslist.
Robin (55:23):
There's definitely, uh, a section there for creatives on Craigslist
and there's lots of last minute andeven in advance photo shoots that
people maybe aren't paying, but maybedoing like a, a styled shoot or a
test shoot or something like that.
So yeah, that's anotherone you wanna get in on.
Just getting in and doing andworking with other people.
(55:46):
Whether you are getting paid or not,you're just kind of learning and starting
to experiment, starting to just refineyour style and gain some experience.
So it doesn't matter if you'regetting paid in the beginning,
you just wanna say yes to a lotof things and carefully say yes.
You wanna make sure that it'ssomething you can deliver on.
(56:06):
I mean, there were a lot of timeswhere people would contact me when
I was working at FIT and say, um, doyou have a student that I can hire?
And then I would say, what's the work?
And then they woulddescribe the job to me.
And these were like companiesand they would want a student.
And I'd be like, okay, you could hirea student if you wanted to take like
(56:28):
three times as long, or you could hirea professional for the right amount
of money and get it done in a day.
Mica (56:34):
Those expectations just were like.
Robin (56:37):
Oh, but sometimes they would just, yeah, they would be like looking to save
money and they would want a student, andlike I, I don't have students first year
of college that are really ready to takethis on to the degree that you want from.
If it was something easy and simple,I would've totally referred somebody.
But the kinds of things that I wouldget would be like long involved,
(57:01):
heavy propping styling jobs, andit's like you should just spend
the money and have it done rightunless you wanna spend more money.
Doing it over when itdoesn't come out right.
I had some star students, I had somereally great students, but I still
don't think, not having even assisteda photographer or stylist or a food
(57:24):
stylist, I think you're not ready.
A lot of people say, just say yesto everything and just go out there.
And I'm like, be careful what yousay yes to and just make sure you can
handle it, because if not, you might getyourself into some sticky situations.
Mica (57:40):
Yes.
I mean is it's asking yourself, is thissituation setting me up for failure
or setting me up for for success?
One point that one of my formerprofessors, Frank Curry, said in, I
think it was two interviews ago, hesaid that education leaves room for
failure and as does portfolio work.
(58:03):
When you're working with a client,you have to be able to deliver
exactly what you say you're goingto deliver in exact amount of time
you say you're going to deliver it.
Robin (58:15):
Right?
It's possible that somebody mayrise to the occasion and do a
fantastic job, and I've heardthat and that's totally possible.
Mica (58:26):
I feel like you're protecting your students by telling these companies that.
What you're asking for is somethingthat my students are not ready for.
This is where they're atin, in their learning.
Robin (58:39):
Right.
And it's happened numerous times.
So I feel like people should be aware andbe educated on what they should expect
to pay for this service and they aretrying to pinch pennies and do it for
nothing, then you get what you pay for.
Mica (58:57):
What's the, the three triangle model?
The quick, cheap, and good.
Pick two.
Robin (59:03):
Ooh, that's good.
I like that.
Mica (59:05):
I love that.
Before I ask my final question,I've gotta say that this has been
an amazing interview and I lovedeverything that we've talked about.
What do you hope that thelisteners learn from you today?
Robin (59:21):
What else?
Let's see.
I, I hope they pick up my book and they'reinterested in the different angles and
the different topics that are in there.
Maybe there's something they never thoughtabout, so that's what I, I hope they learn
that it's a multifaceted type of job.
Type of career or discipline,whatever you wanna call it.
(59:43):
It's very, it's a multi-layered thing.
There really isn't a schoolprogram, not like years.
And you think about you go for yearsand years to learn a certain thing.
You go to medical school forlike 10 years of your life.
Or you go to something that's atwo, three year program and there
really isn't anything like this, anyprogram to learn this, that you really
(01:00:06):
have to learn from life around you.
You know, be inspired by things.
Always just be open to everything.
Look at everything.
Learn how to see things around you.
It's more like you look at a photographand you just turn the page, but stop
and look at how it was put together.
And look at the background and look atthe coloring, and look at everything.
(01:00:28):
Look in nature, look at all thedifferent flowers and, and botanical
things that can be used as props.
And through every, like, I love goingto looking at foreign magazines and
seeing what they're printing andwhat's going on, and design and style.
Go to museums, travel, Imean, that's all these things.
(01:00:48):
Influence you.
Like everybody gets some kind ofthings that stick with them from
your, some total of life experiences.
And I think that's a place where, asin any art form, like your photography
or you're an artist, you're apainter, you work in some medium.
Styling is is in line, is therewith all those things to the art
(01:01:10):
form, just like any of the other artforms, I hope they, uh, are inspired.
I hope try something new.
I hope they see things a different way.
Mica (01:01:20):
I love that.
To see things a different way.
That's great.
Where can the listenersfind you and support you?
Robin (01:01:29):
I am on Instagram and it's at Robin Zachary.
My name Robin, with an i.
And besides my Instagram, uh, Ihave thepropstylingexperience.com
is my teaching website.
And then I have robinzachary.comis my portfolio site, which
(01:01:50):
is badly in need of an update.
So I do have a listing page, aportfolio page at a a site called
Found Artists and you can find me thereand see my most recent work there.
I respond to direct messages, emails, geton my mailing list and they'll be sure to
let you know when those classes open up.
(01:02:11):
So hope to see everybody herein some form and I really
appreciate you having me here.
This is wonderful.
Mica (01:02:19):
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Robin (01:02:25):
I am feeling this is not the last of our friendship here.
Mica (01:02:29):
Heck no.
I I, I say this to everyone who.
Who I cross path with.
Um, I'm like, we're besties now.
You can't get rid of me.
So Robin, we are besties now.
Aw.
There's no getting rid of me.
Thank you so much for being on theshow and I'm signing up for that Prop
Styling for Food Photographers Workshop.
(01:02:51):
I'm excited about that.
Thank you so much for being a guest.
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