038: Engineering Visual Stories in Food Photography

In this engaging episode of The Savory Shot Podcast, we sit down with Francesco Sapienza, a former engineer turned acclaimed food photographer. Francesco takes us through his transformative journey from a technical career to mastering the art of food photography in the bustling city of New York. He delves into the nuances of lighting, composition, and the emotional connection in photography while emphasizing the significance of passion and adaptability in the creative industry. His story not only provides valuable insights for aspiring photographers but also inspires listeners to follow their passions and make choices that align with their personal fulfillment.

 

Website: www.austinfoodguide.com/podcast

Instagram: www.instragram.com/mica.mccook

Instagram: www.instagram.com/thesavoryshotpodcast

 

Would you like to be a guest on the show? Email us at [e-mail] for more information.

Episode Transcript

Mica (00:00):
Welcome to the 38th episode of The Savory Shot.
It is December, the lastfriggin month of the year.
And I don't know about y'all,but, uh, ya girl is ready to wrap
this year up and charge into 2024.
If this is your first time here, Welcome.

(00:22):
My name is Mica.
I'm a food photographerand I live in Austin.
And if you're a returning listener,I just want to say thank you.
Thank you for coming back.
Clearly you are enjoying the hotmess express that this show is.
So thank you, my ride or dies,for always showing up and showing

(00:43):
out and showing love and support.
I am really thankful to haveyou guys., That's how I start
every show with a thank you.
With the gracias, danke schoen, merci.
Did y'all listen to the episodewith food stylist Lisa Homa?
Y'all.

(01:05):
Ooh!
Ya girl loved that episode.
Lisa Homa has been in thebusiness for over 20 years.
She did not come to play.
She came with facts, with receipts.
With humor.
I loved every second of that interview.
But, let's talk abouttoday's episode, y'all.

(01:28):
Oooooooowee!
I got a doozay for you.
Y'all, me and this guest, wetalked for almost two hours.
Now, don't freak out.
This episode will not be two hours long.
I whittled and chiseled andtrimmed this episode up so you

(01:49):
get it with a nice pretty bow.
But I'm telling you that it was a twohour conversation because that's how
awesome and amazing this person is.
So I am not going to waste any more time.
I'm going to introduce our guest.
Meet food photographer Francesco Sapienza.
Francesco is an Italian photographer.

(02:10):
He is actually Italian.
Born and raised in Italy.
But he's based in New York.
He is a former engineer and now heis a full time food photographer.
In addition to his food photography, heis also known for his street photography.
Y'all go to his website,look at his portraiture.

(02:31):
Oh, you will fall in lovewith it just as much as I did.
Y'all, this episode, I cannot, I can't,like, I can't, I'll try to describe
all the things that we talked about.
It was a lot.
We talked about his decision to leavehis home country, how meditation
and yoga helped him center his mind,his past as an engineer, and the

(02:55):
transition he made into photography.
We even talked about the book thathe worked on for the Smithsonian.
Liam, y'all.
This episode is packed, andI couldn't think of a better
way to close out this year.
I mean, we have one more episode,but it's a solo episode, and I'll

(03:16):
talk about that in the solo episode.
But this is the last guest ofthe year, and I couldn't think
of anyone more perfect thanFrancesco to close out the year.
Without further ado, grabyo cuppa cuppa peppa.
Your wine, your tequila, your margarita.
It's five o'clock somewhere.

(03:37):
In fact, it's five o'clock here.
Whatever you do, just kick back,relax, and let's start the show.

(04:20):
I would like to start off bythanking you for being on the show.
I have been looking forward tothis interview for, man, when you
first hit me up in early October,I was like, oh, so funny because
you were on my list to contact.
And you said that I was onyour list to contact, so it's

(04:41):
funny how it all came together.
Francesco, thank you so much forbeing on the show and welcome.
Welcome to The Savory Shot.

Francesco (04:48):
Thank you for having me.

Mica (04:50):
I want to get right into it.
I've got some meaty questions tojump right into and I'm ready to go.
How about you?

Francesco (04:58):
I get my shield.

Mica (05:03):
So you were born and raised in Rome, educated in Stockholm,
and you're now a New Yorker.
What did each of these cities teachyou about yourself that surprised you?

Francesco (05:17):
Oh, wow.
A lot.
The trajectory of my life clearly,has been influenced by these places.
But there's a difference betweenthe first one and the second two.
The first one I didn't choose.
The second two I chose.
And that's a huge difference.
I didn't feel like I fit in, in Rome andearly on, I realized I wanted the more

(05:39):
international environment around me.
So I started learningEnglish very early by myself.
Watching, movies and TVshows with subtitles.
So they're always dubbed.
In Italy, you dub movies and TV shows.
But I could find some thathad subtitles in English.
So I could actually learn Englishas I heard the Italian and then I

(06:00):
was reading the words in English.
So, I thought that was really important.
I really enjoyed English.
And after studying Latin and Greekin school, English is okay, frankly.
Pronunciation will never be,you know, like a mother tongue.
But grammatically speaking, it'svery easy compared to Italian
or many other languages.
So I didn't fit in Rome and, but Ithought, okay, I, I need a degree before

(06:24):
I can go somewhere else and find a job.
So I decided that I would stay untilI finish college, study engineering.
The thing was that I realized veryearly on that there was a huge
struggle to just study in Rome,at that university that back then.
I don't know if it's different now.
And I'm not talking about the subjectmatter, which by itself is really hard.

(06:48):
I'm talking about the logisticsand the actual going to class.
Picture this.
Say class starts at eightthirty in the morning.
So you show up maybe at eight fifteen.
You arrive, and there's no seat for you.
And then you think, okay, maybe,maybe, you know, it's just a mistake.
No, there's about 20 percentof the people who are standing.

(07:10):
The class is not big enoughfor all the students.
And I'm like what?
And people are like, what,didn't you know that?
So, what do you do?
You buy a camping chair and youbring your chair to the class.
Suddenly you realize that a lotof people think the same thing.
So you're, you're fighting to get theseats right in front of the first row.

(07:31):
where everybody's havingtheir camping chair.
Eventually people, people startlocking their chair in the classroom
with a chain so they don't have tocarry it on the train every morning.
I'm serious.
So this just to get to studying.
That's why I said that it's not aboutthe studying, which is hard already.
So all that every singleday, five days a week.

Mica (07:54):
Wow.

Francesco (07:55):
People told me, you know what, by the second year, by the third year,
so many people have dropped out becausethey can't sustain, they can't take it.
That is going to be a piece of cake.
Your third year, fourth and fifth.
And I was like, okay, I can do this.
Fine.
First year is like that.
Second year is like that.
I start the first, the third year.
And it's still like that.

(08:15):
And I'm like, ooh, Idon't think I can do this.
Okay, what do you do if youdon't like a situation you're in?
I think you got two options.
You try and change it and make itlikable, or you avoid the situation.
So I tried and changed it.
I went to the dean and I'mlike, hey, this is not good.
This is a fire hazard.

(08:36):
You can't have all these people standing,blocking the exit door and everything.
Can you please address this?
He's like, nah, that's the way it is.
And I'm like, Okay, but then I'll, I'mcalling the, I'm calling the police.
I'm going to get somebody to comehere and see what it looks like.
He goes like, look at me with a smugface and goes like, you know that
nobody's allowed on the premisesunless I give them permission.

(09:01):
I'm like, okay, all right.

Mica (09:04):
I'll just, go get my camping chair and sit down.

Francesco (09:07):
Exactly.
I realized that there was nothing Icould do to change things and I either
stick with that and, and go through howto get my degree or find other options.
Enters Stockholm.
In a matter of six months, me and mybuddy, we got enough of everything.

(09:27):
He's living in Norway and I'm livingin Sweden as exchange students.
And I went from having to fight tobe in class, and having no computer
because there were like five computersfor, I don't know, a thousand people
in Rome, to having almost my owndedicated computer in Stockholm.
An amazing place, all clean and neatand people on time and all that.

(09:52):
It was a dream.
So Rome taught me that you need todo something if you're not happy.
And I think Stockholm taught me thatyou need to believe in yourself.
You can change things in directionthat you could not foresee.
And chase your dreams.
So, I decided to become a professionalphotographer when I was in Stockholm.

(10:13):
It was 2005, 2006.
And I was 36, 35, something.
I was not twenty.
And the best part was thatpeople encouraged me to do that.
Not my parents, of course.
Not my, not my, not my Italian friends.
But the Swedish friends,they encourage me.

(10:33):
Sweden is a lot more like the U.
S.
when it comes to takingrisks rather than Italy.
Italy is very conservative.
Oh, of course, I need to get into thepicture the fact that my parents, they
were born during the Second World War.
They were poor.
Of course, they wanted me to have ajob, good money for the rest of my life.
And here comes the guy who's the firstone to get a degree in the entire family.

(10:57):
It goes like, you know what,I'm going to do photography.

Mica (11:04):
They're like, wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Francesco (11:09):
And I had like my career in engineering was incredible.
I was one of the top experts in inmobile communications back then.
I was training peopleall around the world.
There were not so many people like me.
We're talking, you know, 10, 20 peoplein the world who could, who knew
those things and could teach them.

Mica (11:27):
Wow.

Francesco (11:28):
it was a pretty amazing job, it's just my passion was not there.
But at the same time I was like, Okay, doI want to go share a couch with somebody
because I don't have a place to stay?
And be a poor artist was not ableto, you know, pay rent at 36.
I'd rather keep my engineeringon the side as a consultant and

(11:51):
grow my photography business.
So this is what I did.
And of course my ego was like.
Oh man, I'm still doing engineering.
You know, a couple of yearsinto that, I was like, man,
I'm still doing engineering.
I don't want to do that.
I feel like a failure.
Will I ever get to the point whereI can say bye bye to engineering?
But I felt like, okay, there'sso many people in New York who

(12:12):
are aspiring actors or dancersand work in bars and restaurants.
I have the luxury of actually doingconsulting in engineering instead
of working in a bar and there's no.
Of course, I have all the respectfor people working in the bar.
But frankly, it's a lot easier have, yeah,I started working and I already a career.
I really know everything I need toknow in engineering to do consulting.

(12:35):
So let's keep that on the side withoutletting your ego take over and just
jump off the boat when it's too early.
So the transition lasted a fewyears, some six, seven years.
My first engineering free year was 2015.
Basically at that point, I they werecalling me to get me gigs to go train

(12:59):
somebody somewhere in the world.
I'm like, I can't do this anymorebecause then I cannot, I'll never
be able to focus on photography.
I'll never be able toput all my energy there.
I'll never be able to have the fearthat really drives me there in place.
That's needed.
Otherwise, I'm going to staya half photographer, half
engineer for the rest of my life.

(13:21):
And I don't want that.
So Stockholm taught me that.
Back to your question.
And New York is teachingme, still teaching me a lot.
But I think the most important partwas to get self awareness and realize
that what's going on around you.
In New York, it's so easy to go onautopilot and just in this crazy busy

(13:43):
life doing a million things every day,day and night, and it's easy to lose
track of yourself, if I can say so,or what you want and where you are
and and I think that's what New Yorktaught me starting about 10 years ago.
Then I went into yoga andmeditation and that was my way out.

(14:07):
I was having a burnout becauseI was doing too many things.

Mica (14:10):
Going, going, going.

Francesco (14:12):
Going, going, going.
Yoga and meditation reallyopen up a new world.
But essentially it's about self-awarenessand self-love and self-appreciation.
Things that we forget so often and athat's an ongoing process, of course.
It's just that I think what Yogaand meditation do for me, they,

(14:33):
they give me tools to deal withthings that will always be there.
But it's easier to deal withthem once you are self aware.
So I think that's probably what thebig lesson in New York has been.
But then on the other hand, NewYork is like, you know, 10 years in
New York is like 30 years in Rome.

(14:53):
I don't know if you want touse that as a quote, but.

Mica (14:58):
I've been to New York once and my one prominent memory of New
York, we were in this sandwich shop.
And it was just this long line.
We eventually made our way inside,and about ten people up ahead of me.
This couple gets to the front andthe cashier, she's like very brisk.

(15:19):
What do you want?
What do you want?
And she pointed at them.
What do you want?
The woman looked at the menuand she's like, Um, well, and
she goes back of the line.
Come back when you know what you want.
And I was like, yes, finally.
This is what I've been waiting for.
My biggest pet peeve is when peopledecide to look at the menu when they
get to the register, you had all thistime while you're standing in line.

(15:42):
You're holding up the line.
So I thought that was brilliant,but then I also was like, oh crap,
I need to look at the menu myself tomake sure that I know what I want.
And I think that sent the cue foreveryone else behind her, behind
this couple to know what they want.
And it just went, boom, what do you want?
Got it.
What do you want?
Got it.
Got it.
Got it.
Pay, pay, pay.
But yeah, that first couplethey were a little shocked.

(16:05):
They were like, wait, what?
We've been standing inthis line this whole time.
You want us to go to the back?
Yeah.
Back of the line.
Come back when you know what you want.
You can do that?
You can say that?
Texas would never.
It's so refreshing.
But that's, that's my one experience.
I could definitely see how busy andrush and exciting and electric and

(16:29):
energetic New York definitely can be.
Before we were recording, you weretalking about when you first moved to
New York and how looking back, you foundyourself in a situation where you're
like, Oh God, what was I thinking?
It just reminds me so much of a interviewthat I had with another food photographer.

(16:51):
She's from Germany and shechose New York for her.
I was trying to figure outhow to pronounce this, you
guys are Erasmus, Erasmus.

Francesco (17:00):
Erasmus.
Yeah.

Mica (17:01):
Erasmus, yeah, and so she chose New York as well and she talked about how she
just ventured all over the city and likein questionable parts of the neighborhood
and she just, she had no idea.
She was like but now she knowsthose unique parts of New York.
So you're when you said that, thatreminded me so much of that experience.
So when you first got to New York in 2012,

(17:24):
what 11.
2011, you got there in 2011, whatwas the first thing that went
through your mind when you arrived?

Francesco (17:35):
It was like a dream come true, even though back then
I still kind of had a plan B, myengineering was not, was still there.
I needed that, of course, I'd save somemoney so that I didn't need to work
like every day in engineering, but Iwas still, I had big ties to engineering
and still ties in Sweden as well.

(17:56):
I had an apartment in Sweden thatI was subletting and most of my.
business came from Sweden.
Even if they sent me to trainpeople around the world, the
company was based in Sweden.
So, so I had a little bit of a plan B,which is a very good situation in a way,
but in another way, it's very, very bad.
I don't believe in plan Bs anymore.

(18:17):
Frankly but it was incredible.
I felt like, okay, am I dreaming?
I'm actually in New York.
And this amazing city.
I've always resonated.
The energy of the city has alwaysresonated with me for some reason.
I always loved it.
I came here several times on vacationbefore I decided to move and never
once felt I different about the city.

(18:40):
And now I'm, now I'm here.
So, I would just take my camera everymorning and go out and take photos.
Back then, I barely knew there weredifferent genres of photography.
I didn't know what kind ofphotographer I wanted to be.
I knew I loved portraiture.
Which is one of my, one of my big passionsand I knew that I loved capturing moments.

(19:02):
So all I did was walking around takingphotos of the city and I started stopping
strangers and taking their portrait.
I'm a pretty introverted guy.

Mica (19:14):
And you asked complete strangers?

Francesco (19:18):
That was like therapy for me because I felt, okay,
I can get better at this.
I can get better at, atinteracting with people.
I could see these faces, you know,they're not used to seeing these faces.
You're not used to seeing so many racesin the same place, coming from Europe
and even things are a bit different nowcompared to 10 years ago, but fascinated.
And you see all these differentclothes, guys, girls, men, and

(19:41):
women dressing any way they wanted.
And I'm like, Oh my God,I need to take this photo.
It's like.
I just couldn't refrainfrom taking the photo.
But then I thought I don'tlike to steal the photo.
I want them to connect with me.
I want them to look at me.
It's funny because this isbefore, uh, what's his name?
What's his name?

(20:01):
The guy who wrote did a book withall the New Yorkers and the photos.
And

Mica (20:06):
Oh.
Oh.

Francesco (20:07):
Humans of New York.

Mica (20:09):
Humans of New York.

Francesco (20:10):
That was before, before he became famous.
And I realized I was, Iwas doing those things.
Of course I wasn't interviewing people.
There was no storytelling for me.
For me, it was just about the fascination.
With a face in the lighting,the light that I, that I liked.
So I started collectingall this, all these faces.
Some are my website as street portraits.
It was every single time it washard because I'm not, it doesn't

(20:34):
come natural to me to stop astranger and ask to take a photo.
In fact, it's like somebody stops me.
I'm like, Hey, what do you want from me?
You know?
And like probably 80 percent wouldstop and let me take their photo.

Mica (20:50):
Really?

Francesco (20:51):
Yeah, and I was like, this could never happen in Italy or Sweden.

Mica (20:56):
You know what say about New Yorkers.
That New Yorkers are notnice, but they are kind.
And if you've been to New York or ifyou've interacted with a New Yorker,
it makes a thousand cents, so I'mnot surprised that every New Yorker
you approached, they were willingto, to have their portrait taken.

Francesco (21:14):
To me back then, I was still trying to make it
as a portrait photographer.
I think more than anything else.
I knew I didn't want to do weddings.
I knew I didn't want to do family photos.
I was very fascinated by, by portraitureand also, you know, being in the city
where Richard Avedon was my biggestidol in photography, by far the, the,

(21:36):
the most amazing photographer for me.

Mica (21:39):
The image the model, where she's by the elephant, and it's
like a black and white image, andshe has on this beautiful gown.
And it just looks so elegant.

Francesco (21:49):
It was special feeling to be in this city and chasing a
career in portrait photography.
So I had no idea whatfood photography was.
I had never shot food.
Maybe a couple of things.
And that's how my adventure started.
But I thought that, you know, like,you know, in three, four months, I
will have clients, I will start work.
I was so naive.
Like you barely, you barelyknow people in the city.

(22:11):
And you think that in three, four months,you're going to have even one client.
But being so naive.

Mica (22:18):
Maybe today that could, that could happen with the rise of social media and
being able to have a much further reachbut in 2011 like I could see that being.

Francesco (22:30):
Yeah.
It's important to staynaive to some extent.
Stay that way because sometimes, you know,sometimes ignorance is bliss, really.
If I look back, I was like, I was,I was crazy, totally crazy, but
it didn't feel crazy back then.
Didn't feel crazy at all back then.
That, that's the thing when I thinkwhen you know that you're supposed to

(22:51):
do something that you don't see theobstacles, you just see your dream.
That's the differentiator, I think, Ithink the moment you feel like too scared.
Oh, this could happen and that couldhappen and that could happen that
maybe that's not the right path.
For me, everything moving toSweden was a piece of cake.
Moving to New York was a piece of cake.

(23:12):
Changing careers was not apiece of cake, but, I saw that,
you know, I saw that coming.
I said, yeah, this is going to happen.
So that's very, very important.
I The self awareness part helps youstay grounded and not go too crazy about,
you know, ideas that you might have.
It's a good amount.

(23:32):
I think you need a good amountof that, but also naivete.
You kind of need that.

Mica (23:38):
If you go into a situation, I, I mentioned this earlier, that if
you go into a situation and how manypeople have stopped themselves from
trying something or doing somethingbecause of what could go wrong.
One thing my therapist always remindsme of, because like before every

(23:58):
shoot, the anxiety that I experience.
It's through the roof and I'mlike, what if this goes wrong?
What if that goes wrong?
Oh God, this is going to be a nightmare.
And she reminds me, you don't havecontrol over what could go wrong.
You have control over what you cando here, what you could do now.
What you do here andnow, that's your choice.

(24:19):
You can think about everything that couldgo wrong and just feel sick over that.
Or you can feel excited abouteverything that could go right.
And trust that you know whatto do if something goes wrong.
That you've hired the rightteam around you to support
you when something goes wrong.
So be excited and have funwith that and control that.

(24:42):
I mean that I just constantlyhave to remind myself about that.
Just knowing what I can control.

Francesco (24:51):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I've been thinking about this too.
I also before, you know, I think aboutthis interview and things, you know,
looking back at my career and stuff.
It's like when you start, you know, thelevel of anxiety is very, very high.
Or you have no anxiety, whichmeans you're totally crazy.
You have no idea what you're doing.

(25:12):
If you are at least a little bit awareabout the fact that you're actually
doing business and you're, somebody'spaying you to do something, you,
you're going to have some anxiety.
Of course the anxiety goes downas your career progresses, but I
think some needs to stay there.
That's fuel for me.
That's, that's absolutelynecessary fuel for me.

(25:34):
And it's funny cause I, I rememberI remember watching this interview.
Maybe it's 10 years ago or somethingwith, with Pacino, with Al Pacino.
And he was saying, you know, Pacino,I'm not talking about some character,
some, you know, actor who just started.
It was saying that he still feels,before going on stage, theater

(25:56):
or movie or whatever that is, itfeels like some anxiety and he goes
like, okay, can I, can I do this?
Can I really do this?
And and I was saying, you know, themoment you don't feel that anymore.
Time to stop.

Mica (26:09):
It becomes a job at that point where that excitement, that wonder,
that fear, like that care that youput into it and you're like, Oh,
I really want to do well in this.
Or, I don't want to screw this up.
The minute it's like, Oh,I got this in the bag.
It just becomes oh,I'm wasting my time now.
This is boring.

(26:29):
I, I need to find something else to do.
I'm 100 percent on board.
Totally agree with that.
Totally agree with that.
Do you ever fear or wonder if thatpassion, that feeling will disappear?
What do you do if you ever findyourself getting close to that feeling?
How do you pull yourself from that edge?

Francesco (26:49):
It hasn't happened so far.
Probably been lucky or maybe Idon't know the way my career has
progressed and my life has progressed.
Hasn't brought me into that specificsituation where I felt, okay, well, I
have to go and take these photos again.
Also things change quitea lot when you have kids.

Mica (27:10):
Oh yeah, they'll do that.

Francesco (27:14):
Ha ha
No, luckily as, as it happenedand I, I can say that maybe
when during the pandemic thatwas a little bit of a crisis.
Of course, for the food industry,it was, was pretty, really tough.
And I suddenly had no work.
I realized also that when I'mkind of low, because I don't have

(27:37):
work or for any other reason.
I don't feel like taking photos.
I'm not in the mood.
Then I think, wow, when I camehere, I was walking around with
my camera, like glued to my hand.
And now I don't even remember wherethe camera is because I can't
bring myself to taking a photo.
And I remember that I was talkingto a guy that, you know, he was

(27:58):
on the podcast, Andrew Scrivani.
Great guy.

Mica (28:02):
Oh, yay.
Shout to Andrew

Francesco (28:04):
Amazing, amazing guy.
And I took a workshop with, withhim to kind of help me, get out
of the, the rut you say, yeah.
And that helped a lot.
I remember that I kind of started forcingmyself to start taking picture again.
Take your camera, just one lens,just try, try and push yourself.
Things changed quite a lot when I starteddoing that, because you start to pay

(28:28):
attention again to things that you didn'tpay attention anymore, for some reason.
You start to walk around.
You're not just walking with one goalin mind, going from A to B, and then
would do whatever you're supposedto do at B, and then go from B to C.
And all that, you start to say, okay,there's a whole world around me and it
doesn't need to be food photography,but let's start taking photos again.

(28:49):
I was a little bit going back to thebasics and find out what, what gives
me joy and eventually that led to,you know, nothing more than feeling,
feeling that the passion was still there.
Also funnily enough, when you startgetting into that new energy and then you
feel that things are changing a little bitthen work picks up and always like that.

(29:13):
When you're low for some reason,you know, nothing telephone never
rings email no emails, no nothing.

Mica (29:20):
And Just kick around a box.
They're like, you bunch of losers.
She's not hiring me.

Francesco (29:26):
Exactly.
Then you change something.
You can believe that it's theuniverse doing that to you.
You can believe that, justfate or whatever that is.
It doesn't really matter.
But I think the moment we start doingsomething to change things, then we
open up the door for other things thatmay seem unrelated to happen, because
just your mindset is, is, is different.
It's like, why do they say thatmeditation helps you in life.

(29:49):
Is there some magical power thatyou connect to and that is actually
taking care of things for you?
Well, it could be, I don't know,but what I think is that it
gives you clarity in your mind.
It gives you enough clarity sothat you make better decisions.
That's what it does.
You want to believe thatit's a magical power.

(30:10):
That's totally fine.
I don't know, it could be, but therational explanation that I have found
is that and basically by creating,removing the noise from five minutes
a day, 10 minutes a week, whatever,whatever time you can dedicate to
that helps you get more clarity.
And that naturally helpsyou make better decisions.

Mica (30:31):
I love what you said about, two things that you mentioned that
I love is the first is that, notsitting in this energy changing things
around you if it doesn't feel good.
That's how a lot of food photographers,food stylists, like the ones who
started later in their careers.

(30:51):
They realized that they followed thattraditional path, and it's not fulfilling.
You have two choices.
You can either just stay inthat, and stay miserable.
Or you can go out and try something thatexcites you, and it's probably ten times
more work, and you're putting in morehours, but it doesn't feel that way.

(31:14):
It just feels so wonderful that you'redoing this unconventional thing,
and it's so much more fulfilling.
That idea that you don'thave to sit in this.
I grew up poor as well , but mybrothers and I, we have this mindset
that it's just because we were born poordoesn't mean we're going to stay poor.

(31:34):
You mean to tell me that I'm the onewho can get myself out of poverty
by doing this, this and this, thenI'll do it if that's what I need,
because I'm not going to stay in this.
The mindset and perspective that youhave in everything from leaving Rome
to going to Stockholm to coming to NewYork and, even during the pandemic.
I am a huge advocate for meditation,especially for people who have really

(31:59):
high anxiety, and it's wouldn't itbe great to just give your brain a
break, like total silence for fiveminutes, like how much of a weight
that would take off of your shoulders?
I can do so much after this and itmakes me a better photographer, a
better creator because I've just hadthat rest that I so desperately needed.

(32:21):
You talked about how you got into foodphotography that you did work for Eataly.
Do you still do work for them?

Francesco (32:30):
No, I haven't done it in a while.

Mica (32:33):
At the time of the article you said you had done
work for them for three years.
That was your introductionto food photography.
I want to hear more about that.
What do you remember the most fromthat first assignment of breaking
apart and looking at the insidesand, tell me more about that.

Francesco (32:51):
Yeah, it was, it was, it was interesting cause a friend of mine here
in New York told me about that theywere looking for a food photographer.
I wasn't shooting much food.
Actually, I've donemaybe a couple of things.
Shooting cheese for somebody who'snow is a good friend of mine.
Shout out to Michelle.

Mica (33:08):
I mean, that sounds like a pretty, pretty solid gig.
Cheese.

Francesco (33:12):
That was my very first food gig in 2012 or something.
Basically he said, yo, go,go see what they want because
I'm not involved in this.
I contacted the marketing personand they say, yeah, I would like to
do something cool with, with food.
So we're going to sell products,it's going to be online, it's
going to be in e commerce.

(33:33):
We need to find somethinginnovative and different.
And I'm like, okay, How, how, howdifferent, how different can a
professional super creative foodphotographer make a bag of cereal look?
Compared to another lesscreative food photographer.
The room for innovation is very limited.

(33:56):
So they told me, okay, here's a bagwith, I don't know, five or six products,
go home, show us what you can do.
And I'm like, okay.
So I took the bag.
I think there was a bar, a candy bar.
It was on pasta.
Those are the things I remember.
Okay, so bring home, set up my own studio.
I knew about lighting and I knew all that.

(34:16):
I started taking photos andI'm like, it's going nowhere.
I mean, it's a it's pasta.
Yes.
I can change the lighting.
I can make it, you know,you know more harsh.
I can make it softer, but stillthere's no innovation in that.
I was like, whatever.
I'll just send them the photos.
You know when you drop your guardand you stop thinking and it's

(34:38):
because you're thinking too much.
You're not letting your brainactually your mind yourself come
out because you're you are youryour mind is clouded with thoughts.
Back to meditation.
So I was like, okay, that'san energy bar looks great.
The packaging looks cool.
What does it look inside?
What does it look like?

(34:59):
Because yeah, you can see the bar, but youonly can see the exterior of the bar from
the picture that you have on the package.
Huh.
I open it up and and Ibroke the bar in two.
And suddenly I was like, Oh, Ihad no idea it looked like that.
So I get my micro lens or the extension,you know how there's a extension

(35:20):
tube that you can put on a regular,I didn't have a micro back then.
I had the extension tube and I put iton and I go really close and show some
Nougat stuff that was in there andwith a very shallow depth of field.
I was like, this is cool.
What if I tell them to take one photostandard packaging or whatever that

(35:40):
is, and then the second photo whereyou can show the actual product.
And guess what?
They love the idea.
Suddenly I'd come up withsomething that didn't exist.
I was like, yeah, this is pretty cool.
And they were like, yeah, so wecan have a primary photo and then
people can click through and see thesecondary photo that we show them
what the actual product looks like.
And not the photo that is on thepackage because normally that one is

(36:03):
very different or somehow differentthan what the product looks like.
They were like, okay, you're goingto have 500 products to photograph.
This is the budget.
And as low as the budget was, it was alot of money for somebody just starting.
I'm like, really?

Mica (36:21):
You photographed 500 products?
Wizard.
That is wizardry right there.

Francesco (36:29):
They go like, you're going to have set up a studio at our office.
And we have three months.
I'm like, okay, I'm on vacation.
I'm going on vacation to Italy next week.
I got to be gone for threeweeks, but okay, sure.
We have two months and you know, one week.
And I'm like, yeah,hell yeah, we'll do it.
So can you imagine the energyand how I felt fueled by this?

(36:53):
It's like, there's money, there's,you know, fun people around me as a
great brand and, pay me to do this.
They're really paying to do this?
Like, It was a great feeling.
They gave me like a corner in the studio,probably in feet was that maybe five
by eight feet, something like that.

(37:16):
So this is your studio.
You can do whatever you want in here.
It was not that big.
And people were passing.
Behind me was an office space.
I'm like, yeah, I can do this.
I know, I knew the technical stuff.
I knew lighting.
I knew how to operate strobes.
I knew all that stuff.
Basically I would take the photo,go to the person in charge,

(37:36):
show her the photo in my camera.
So in the display.
And then go back.
And she said, okay, good.
Go back.
So I didn't, I wasn't tethering anything.
I'm just like, I didn't even know thatI was that I could actually tether my
camera to the computer and create adifferent experience for the client.
I didn't know, but it was good enough.
Then eventually I moved to the card,the wireless card that actually sends,

(37:57):
I don't know if they exist anymore.
They send the image to the computer.
I realized that the postproduction was a lot of work.
Enters India and freelancersacross the globe.
So I was like, you know what?
I should use my time todo something different.
I should use my time to finish thisproject and maybe look for other
opportunities rather than sittingin Photoshop, which I don't enjoy.

(38:20):
I found, you know, these guys, theycould do it for 59 cents photo.
They can remove the backgroundand create a shadow.
So I'd rather pay myself out of my pocketsome money and get, you know, my time
freed up than the other way around.
So everything went well.
That was the first batch and allthe e commerce, and then they were
creating content pretty regularly.

(38:42):
So I was their photographer.
Then one day they said, you know,Rizzoli, the publisher might contact you.
Like, sure, what do they want from me?
Suddenly, Italy was doing a book.
Their first book.
And they were looking at me as thesole photographer for the book.
And I'm like, guys, are you, are you sure?

(39:02):
Anyway, I went there with somephotos that I had of cheese.
They were crazy enough to hire me.
There's also anotherstory connected to that.
We can go into that ifyou want, but uh, it
Was it was close
It was
close
To closing my photography career,that project was went very, very close
to destroying my photography career.

(39:24):
But anyway, so, yes, let's go there.
So, you know how, when you startgetting things done and you can see,
you know, that you're getting good,you can become a little bit arrogant?
Yeah, I became arrogant.
And I didn't really think too muchabout what I was going to photograph.
So I said, I got this, I got this.
I just put a light here and I got this.

(39:47):
Eh, no.
Products, okay.
What I was doing worked.
For food, not so much.
The very bright light from thefront, you know, that wasn't working.
I was so arrogant that Iwasn't questioning, you know,
if it was working or not.
Then I have to say that also on theirend, they should have been more It
should have been better with feedback.

(40:07):
Suddenly one day the guy calls me up.
We're shooting, we did two shoots fora book and he goes like, Hey, I showed
these photos to a friend of mine.
And he said, they're not good.
And I'm like, Ooh, okay.
Can you imagine how itfelt like in your body?
It is like your first bookis like your career is on the
line and you hear these things.

(40:28):
Then I quickly go online, I'm stilltalking to him, for some reason,
I think something had alreadypopped up in my mind that, that
didn't work, was not great enough.
A couple of days before I waslooking at other food photographers
and I quickly realized that, Hey,I think I'm doing something wrong.
The light I'm placing there.
It's not good.
I shouldn't place thelights so much in the front.

(40:48):
It should be more in the back.
I look at all these food photographers.
And I'm good at looking at the photos,they never place the light in front.
I think he's right.
So the moment he said that, I immediatelyrealized what I had done wrong.
So, I can be very slow at certain things,but I'm a quick learner when it comes to
just realizing, you know, especially withlighting, what works and doesn't work.

(41:13):
But I was so arrogant back then, in thatproject, that I didn't question things.
I realized that basically the guy's right.
But I also realized that Iknow what I need to change.
So I try and put myself togetheragain after the news that,
you know, they might fire me.
And I go like, Hey, I thinkI know what went wrong.

(41:33):
Can I get another chance?
What if I deliver to you five or siximages properly made just by myself.
And you look at them, you consultwith whoever professional, whatever
professional person you have.
Then you let me know if youwant to keep me on the job.
And he said, well, frankly, for me,it's easier to keep you because I don't
have to restart the entire process.

(41:54):
You know, all the financials are in place.
So yeah, if you can do that.
Yeah, we'll keep you and I felt reallyreally proud that I had the clarity
in my mind to actually first realize Iknew already that something was wrong,
but realize it during the call and alsorealizing what to say during the call.
Okay, I'm gonna change thisbecause I'm not gonna lose this
job and I'm much better than this.

(42:15):
Find a food stylist find a studioand do the freaking pictures.
I found a food stylist andI paid the full stylist.
For that day, I paid the studio.
So this became quite anexpensive, you know, save for me.
I created 10 pictures and I edited them.
I sent five or six to him andit was like, yeah, you're good.

(42:36):
They're great.
That was a wake up call for me,because I think that tends to happen
maybe to me that when I feel thatthings are going so well, that, oh,
I know, I know that, you know, alittle bit of that arrogant attitude
that I hate so much in other people.
And then I find myself having it.
But also I was very happy that I couldsee that and change that very quickly.

(42:59):
So I take pride for being able to do that.

Mica (43:03):
It's really difficult to take accountability and admit fault and go.
Okay.
I was not at my best, let me redo this.
That's like the biggest level ofawareness that you could do that, that
you can see that about yourself andsave that client and keep that going.
What line do you cross from beingconfident and sure versus arrogant?

Francesco (43:30):
Yeah.
It's a very fine line.
We go back to self awareness andjust being in touch, even with
just the feelings in your body.
That you feel when somebodyis saying something is
communicating something to you.
I remember like vividly, the feelingI had in my stomach when he said
those words, like, we're not surewe can keep you on this project.
I felt my entire world was collapsing.

(43:50):
This was my big chance, book witha super, like a huge publisher.
I also felt a little bit likeI was jeopardizing my chance.
Like subconsciously going against myself,maybe because I felt I was an imposter.
I was still an engineer, I didn'tbelong there and all those things.
But yeah, the line is very, very subtle.

(44:12):
You need to be humble and, and, and youneed humility to approach things, but
also you need to be firm and you needto just be aware of what you can do.
It's a constant exercise because also thejobs, the type of projects they change
all the time, they can be very different.
One approach they used last time,maybe it's not going to work the
same way or as well the next time.

(44:33):
But yeah, it's a good question, how,how you, how to balance that so you
don't become too arrogant or tooscared and too anxious about things,
you know, that you think you, you'renot, you might not be able to do.

Mica (44:46):
You hit it on the nail when you said that, at some point, are you
just like self sabotaging yourself?
So many photographers, they don'trealize that they're doing that.
Like they talk themselves outof a job or, this seems like
too good of an opportunity.
Where's the other shoe?

(45:06):
Is it going to drop?
And when they approach a projectwith that kind of energy,
that I feel like an imposter.
Why is this company looking at me?
I couldn't possibly be that good.
I feel like that is just as bad asbeing, if not worse, being arrogant.
You're speaking gospel over here.

(45:28):
I'm, I'm loving it.
Your work is a fine balancebetween portraiture and food.
At what point in your career did you startrealizing that food was something that you
were good at and felt passionately about?

Francesco (45:45):
I love being, shooting portraits.

Mica (45:48):
Love your

Francesco (45:48):
and, and that's, oh, thank

Mica (45:50):
The people you photograph, you're just so great at capturing
their eyes and everything Ineed to know about that person.
I just see the joy in their eyes.
I love that you get like real close.
It's very intimate.
There's not distractions.
It's just us focusing on this person andwondering what are they doing right now?

(46:13):
What has led them to thismoment, to this connection?
What happened after the photo?
Did you talk afterwards?
What did you talk about?
What would that person thinkand feel years after seeing
this photo of themselves?
Will they remember that interactionas much as the photographer does?
I love looking at portrait work.

(46:34):
It's not the same love as food.
Food brings something else to me.
What does food bring to you?
How do you get that samelove and connection with food
that you would with a person?

Francesco (46:48):
First of all, I saw the photo.
Yeah, I love that photo.
It's one of my favorites.

Mica (46:52):
Such a great photo?

Francesco (46:54):
I really love it.
Well, I approach them the same waybecause for me, everything starts from
something that is appealing to theeye and definitely my eye, hopefully
other people's eyes, but, and that,that, that starts with lighting.
Your light is, you know, to meis 80 percent of your photo.
I treat them the same way,in that perspective, so they

(47:14):
need to be lit properly.
So for me, the portrait of a person andthe portrait of food is still a portrait.
So much easier to shoot food.
So much easier.
In the worst case, you have foodthat is slightly changing as time
passes, if you're not quick enough.
But in some other cases, the foodis there and you have all the time.

(47:35):
With a person is very, very different.
From the technical perspective, lightis, is key and is what I need to nail.
And that is what makesme feel something inside.
With portraiture, you get the extradimension that is the connection
that you have with a person.
Whereas with food, yes, you might havea connection in terms of history behind

(47:55):
the food or things that maybe it's a foodthat you used to eat when you were young.
Maybe there are connections, youknow, emotional connections with
your family or your background,whatever that is, but it's something
that it's more in you and it's notevolving so much during the shoot.
If you're shooting person, you know,that evolves, you know, every, every
split second, something different.
So whatever you say isgoing to affect that person.

(48:16):
Whatever that person is doing, it mightaffect what you're going to say next.
The, the level of connection andbeing present in the moment with
portraiture, you don't have with food.
They're both beautiful because I look forthe beauty, the nice light and, and that.
And so the way I approach them isthe same, but it's so much deeper

(48:38):
when it comes to, to portraiture andto a level that you know, it can't
describe because you cannot know howthings are going to, are going to go.
You have another personright in front of you.
With ice cream, you know,it's going to melt, fine.
That's something you to takeinto account, but that's all.
It's going to melt in the same way.
It's going to melt today.
And it's going to melt tomorrow.

(48:59):
And the guy in front of meis doing something today that
you will not do tomorrow.
And even if we will do something similar,it's not going to be exactly that
120, 125th of a second kind of actionfreeze that you're going to get on him.
So, that's why I findthem not that different.

(49:22):
I would say that being so comfortablewith people and with portraiture
helps me a lot because 60 percentof my work is with restaurants.
And in most cases, it's not just food.
There's personnel, there's a chef,there's a kitchen, even a line
cook that is cutting something.
So you need to be comfortablewith taking photos of people.
And I'm not talking about the technicalpart, you know, lighting and all that,

(49:42):
that, that, that's easy to learn.
I mean, anybody can learn that,but you need to deal with people
who might be under a lot of stressbecause the restaurant is open.
And then also it helps when youhave some celebrity chef in front
of you who doesn't want to do thethings that you ask them to do.
So you need to be ableto navigate that too.

(50:03):
Most of these people are used tobeing photographed, but sometimes
they are too used and they want totake over and wanted to decide more
and, you know, sometimes it's okay.
Sometimes it's not,but that's a huge part.
The other part, that comes frommaybe my street photography
background is capturing the moment.
The backstage, the prepping of food.
A lot of times we shoot either inthe kitchen or outside the kitchen,

(50:25):
but it looks like a kitchen andpeople prepping, just moving their
hands, cutting things and, and justthe capturing that, that moment.
You definitely need to be there in thatmoment and also some sort of sensitivity
to what's going on and being aware alsothat you're in the middle of kitchens
are not that big in New York normally.
So.
There's always somebody bumping youand passing by and, and all that.

(50:47):
Everything comes actually prettyhandy doing food photography
and restaurant photography.
That's, that's, that's very, very cool.

Mica (50:55):
What you said about ice cream, that it could melt and you know it's
gonna melt so you can plan ahead.
You can't do that people.
I believe that every food photographershould put themselves in a
situation where they don't have alot of control over the elements.
Doing something that, Where you have tobe very flexible and go with the flow will

(51:19):
make you such a better food photographerfor whatever could go wrong, especially if
you're working with chefs and restaurants.
Don't get me wrong.
I've met so many wonderful chefs, butI've also met chefs who are just not in
the mood for me or for my camera, andthey want me in and they want me out.

Francesco (51:40):
Yes, the chef or whoever is there that you need to
photograph can be an ass, you know.
But the thing is thatthey're doing their job.
We, the marketing team or whoever,we're asking them to do something extra.
While they're doing their, their job,their first priority is to get the
kitchen working and everything workingthere as much as my first priority

(52:02):
is to get the great picture of you.
So there might be a conflictthere and we need to be.
respectful of what's going on andjust don't dismiss that as arrogance
or somebody who doesn't want to helpbecause maybe they have big problems.
Maybe somebody didn't show up today andit's the day that we're supposed to shoot.
Let's always assume that person isdoing their best to, to help and not

(52:24):
necessarily, it's not that they don'tlike you or they bother you, but you
know, maybe that person is very stressed.
I don't take it personally ifthey say fuck off, I don't want
to take this photo or come backin two hours or whatever it is.
I, I know they're under pressure.

Mica (52:38):
Very true.

Francesco (52:40):
One of the lines that separates, pros from amateur or semi
pros and whatever way you want todefine that, but being able to roll
with the dice and say, Hey, okay, is itbetter if I come back in half an hour?
I can go shoot the dishesnow and then we come back.
Maybe it's easier, you know butjust have that, that sensitivity
and also realizing that the guy isprobably has nothing against you.

(53:02):
And, and work with that.
It's still your job toget the photo taken.
Those things are things thatyoung photographers don't realize
that they're so important.
We're delivering much more than justimages or videos, whatever content.
We're delivering theexperience of working with us.
Each of us is a brand.
And we deliver an experience.

(53:23):
Say that there's a food that youlove and they have a restaurant
and they make this amazing food.
And it's a very same restaurantas a food truck and the food is
exactly the same, exactly the same.
But the experiences are very, verydifferent if you get your food from
the food truck and then compared togoing to a restaurant and having a
meal, you know, for an hour and a half.

(53:44):
Extremely different experiences,yet the food is exactly the same.
What we need to strive and do better.
And that's, I put a lot of effort,a lot of energy into making the
experience as good as possible, aspainless as possible for the client.
I'm not saying enjoyable, hopefullyenjoyable, but definitely painless.

(54:05):
Smooth sailing from the momentthey contact you and they need a
quote to the moment you invoice andthen you maybe touch base to get
some feedback or whatever you do.
It's really, really important.
That's, that's likehospitality in photography.
it's not hospitality in photography,but the photography of hospitality.
How would you call that?

(54:25):
Anyway, you
understand.

Mica (54:27):
I understand.

Francesco (54:29):
In the.

Mica (54:29):
Your bedside manner.

Francesco (54:31):
Exactly.
on
Ultimately we are service providers.
We are providing services.
And when I purchase a service I purchasedthe entire thing and I want to enrich
that service so that I give valuethat goes beyond just the beautiful
images that so many people can take.
Very hard to differentiateyourself on an image level.

(54:53):
Because there are so many peoplewhere you can take images but
can they take them under stress?
Can they take them whenyou're in the kitchen?
Can they take them when, Hey, hey,you sent me two dishes and one
of them is melting and I don'thave time to do Can you do that?
Photographers sometimes don't realizethat they have it and they need to
promote, not promote it, but make itaware that they can offer so much more.

(55:17):
And sometimes clients don't realizethat they're actually purchasing
so much more than just images.
Then they're like, okay, theimages are great, but also it was
so easy to work with this guy.
It was the easiest thing andthen you can pay online and then
you can, it's like everything isautomated as much as possible.
So I, I, I aspire to that frankly.

Mica (55:37):
Absolutely.
If there's anything I've learnedso far, as a freelancer is that
people will go out of their wayto experience a good experience.
I want to talk about your bookwith the baseball collector.
We were talking about that earlier.
I could hear just how muchhis passion rubbed off on you.

(55:59):
You still talk about it withso much like happiness and joy.
So tell me about the book.
What were your expectationsgoing into this project?
Were those expectations thesame when you left the project?

Francesco (56:13):
Actually the way the book came about by itself, I think it's
pretty amazing because normally,especially in New York, everybody's
so specialized and if you are lookingfor somebody to take photographs of
baseball artifacts and memorabilia.
You're going to try and findsomebody who's already done
that or something very similar.

(56:35):
What I was not expecting was an artdirector that could see okay, if this
guy's so good at taking photos of food.
If he can bring food to life in thisway, he's going to be able to bring
objects to life in the same way.
And normally people don't do that.
I was so amazed that actually I evengot the job and I asked her why.

(56:57):
She said, yeah, that, that wasthe reason, what I just said.
So that was incredible.
I didn't know what I was walkinginto because I'm not a baseball fan.
I don't think I'll everbecome a baseball fan.
I mean, I didn't become a baseballfan after shooting this book.
So I don't think it's going to happen.

Mica (57:12):
What was the name of the book?

Francesco (57:13):
Game Worn.
Like jerseys and stuff that wasactually worn during the game.
So real stuff.
It was one of the most amazing thingsthat, that I've done, but I had
no idea what it was walking into.
And I was even questioningif I should take the job.
I mean, of course, Miss Smithsonianknocks on the door, you open
the door and let them in.

(57:33):
But then it's like, okay, it's goingto be a lot of days in different
parts of the world with a person.
I don't know.
Wow.
Well, guess what?
I still don't love baseball.
I still couldn't care less aboutthe memorabilia, but the energy
that this guy brought on set and hispassion for the stories that he was

(57:53):
telling, because he was the author.
He was telling such amazing storieswith such a passion that I fell in love
with, not baseball, but the way hispassion in approaching the subject.
So it's not about a list of objects, youknow, there's a story for each object.
This jersey was worn by thisguy in 1939 during this game.

(58:18):
Or this guy, there's a story ofthis guy who had a stalker, a woman
stalker, who actually shot the guy.
But, the, the bullet lodged somewherenear, I think he had a Bible or something.
Like, you know in the movieswhen they, the bullets.
It was something like that.
Anyway, so, he told me this story, andso we had to recreate the setting where

(58:40):
we could show the bullets on a table, thejersey of the guy, and all this thing.
So it was incredible to work with him.
A super high energy guy, finance guy.
I don't know how he foundthe time to write a book.
That really reinforced my conviction thatI have now that, it's really important
to to work with people that you likeand you know, what you're doing might

(59:02):
be secondary, even secondary compared tothe fact that you're working with this
person or this team, it's so valuable.
And I strive a lot to try and putmyself in situations where I like
the client as much, the client interms of persons that I work with
as much as I like what I'm shooting.
Of course, it's not easy in the beginningwhen you don't have any work, but I

(59:24):
think for young photographers, it'sreally important to keep in mind.
Maybe you have it in the back of yourmind that eventually you want to kind
of find the right clients for you.
And I know it's not easy in the beginning.
You take whatever you get becauseyou need to make money, but
then it should be an aspiration.
Also makes everything more sustainable,makes your energy and your passion.

(59:46):
Anyway, so this experiencewas so incredible.
We became friends.
We're, we're still friends.
And I went all around the U S shootingcollections of stuff, setting up studios
in homes and and that deal was kind of,it was kind of doing the art direction.
He was telling me the story and then Iwould help him recreate the story with
some artifacts and the proper lighting.

(01:00:08):
We ended the, the project inHong Kong, where he lives.
So I set up studio in his home.
It's funny we're not talkingabout food photography.

Mica (01:00:17):
I, it amazes people when guests, when they come on, they're like, this
is a food photography podcast and andwe're not talking a lot about food.
And I go, oh, but we are.

Francesco (01:00:27):
No,
fine.
Frankly, it's fine.
I'm not here to promote anything.
It's like, I, enjoy the conversation.
I enjoy talking to youand I enjoy sharing stuff.
People might find valuable interms of, you know, inspiration.
And and so this, this projectbecame so, so incredible.
I was in Hong Kong for,I think, eight days.
Shooting all this stuff and and and thenin the US I think we were in six or seven

(01:00:50):
locations and he would travel with me.
I can imagine these people areall wealthy people because, you
know, if you can collect this stufflike a Jersey, $5 million, stuff
like that, it's like, wow, wow.

Mica (01:01:01):
I got a jersey, if any millionaires want to buy it for five million.

Francesco (01:01:09):
So it was, it was very, very interesting, and I'm very
happy that I, I, I took the job.
The expectations were, were exceeded bymiles and miles because I almost took
the job only because of the prestigiousclient, Smithsonian, and you know, the
money, of course, then I didn't knowwhat I was walking into and so much more

(01:01:30):
came along and it was just incredible.

Mica (01:01:33):
You mentioned, the word passion.
I wonder going into this shoot, did itchange your perspective on what passion
looks like or what it feels like?

Francesco (01:01:47):
I don't know if it changed my perspective, but I, I
didn't know that somebody else'spassion could rub off on me.
That I wasn't expecting.
I was expecting that either I havepassion for what I'm photographing, or
the fact that it's going to become a book.
I had no idea that I could fall inlove with somebody else else's passion.

(01:02:08):
Not his passion, not thepassion he has for those things.
It's such an incredibleexperience and realization.
It has made also me more opento listen to things that I
think I would be interested in.
So maybe I'm not interested in, I don'tknow, cars, but maybe I'm interested

(01:02:28):
in the way this guy talks about cars.

Mica (01:02:31):
Yes.

Francesco (01:02:32):
And that's, that's cool.
That's, that's very, it'svery refreshing and it's very.
It's enriching for sure.
Like to say one more thing that I think,because some people I see that, of
course, it people get courage from seeingsomebody like me who was an engineer and
decided to, you know, throw all that away.

(01:02:52):
The fact that you have a passion forphotography, whatever that could be, or a
passion in general, I don't think it's areason good enough to just quit your job.
There's an equally viableway to approach this.
I'm not saying you should, youshould not follow your passion.
I'm saying that for some people,maybe, having that as a hobby,
stress free hobby, is the way.

(01:03:16):
Maybe it's still better for somepeople to keep their job and make
room for you know your hobby and usethe money you get from your job to
finance your hobby or whatever that is.
What I'm trying to say.
It is there's no one size fits all answerto these and And I definitely encourage
people to try and follow their passion,but I also try and say that, Hey, this,

(01:03:40):
you're not a failure if you decideactually consciously to keep it as a hobby
and have a lot of fun without the stress.

Mica (01:03:49):
Take the pressure off of having to worry about making ends
meet, reaching your bottom line.
That can sometimes justsuck the life out of it.
I appreciate you being here so much.

Francesco (01:04:03):
No abs.
Absolutely.
I think it's, it's important,but don't get me wrong, I, I, I
think everybody should, should trywhat they feel like, like doing.
Nobody is picturing that when theythink about photographers, they think
about this, this glamorous career.
Either if you're doing fashion oryou're even if you're doing food.
Oh, I go to all these restaurants, theydon't see that that's like 10 percent

(01:04:24):
or 20 percent of, of the entire thing.

Mica (01:04:27):
We don't see it because a lot of us don't show it, especially on social media.
We don't show the, the behind thescenes of what it takes to get the
job, what happens when we get a lead.
The phone calls that take place,the estimates that we send over.
I love that more and more photographersare opening up that side of the business,

(01:04:49):
and being more open about that, andgiving people who are thinking about
entering this field a more full picture.
But I want to finish this interviewwith one super last question.
What do you hope the listenerslearn from today's episode?

Francesco (01:05:08):
I would say if I just end with something that is very personal to me.
It's just you know regrets.
I I don't want to have regrets So I needto do and act in a way So that I minimize
the amount of regrets when I look back.
Because if I do that I can look back andfeel at peace that I did what I could

(01:05:30):
with the information that I had backthen, of course, you know, otherwise
it's too easy to judge your past.
But utilize that so that you canbe at peace with your decisions.
That's key in life, you knowindependently of if we're talking about
photography or, or something else.
Try and minimize the amount ofregrets and so act accordingly
and then look back and be as muchas peace as you can possibly be.

Mica (01:05:55):
I love that.
Where can the listeners find you?
Follow you?
Reach out to you?

Francesco (01:06:01):
Online.
Yeah, Francesco Sapienza.
I should pop up pretty easily ifyou just Google Francesco Sapienza.
If you add food photographer, thenyeah, you're gonna hit for sure.
There's another greatFrancesco in New York.
I don't think you have interviewed him.
At least yet.

Mica (01:06:18):
Not You mentioned him in one of your interviews that he's
your favorite food photographer.
Francesco Tonnelli.

Francesco (01:06:25):
Tonelli.
Yeah.
He is an amazing guy, verytalented photographer.
And I've had the pleasure tomeet him privately a few times.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's great because we are such acommunity that sometimes we kind of,
afraid to be in touch because we'rekind of competing, competing in a way.
Then you realize that everybody'sstruggling with very similar

(01:06:46):
things and everybody has somethingto share that you can learn.
And just pure friendshipwhen business aside.
There's amazing people and he's,yeah, he's, he's a great great person.

Mica (01:06:56):
Thank you so much for coming on the show, for giving, all this wisdom.
This is an incredible,incredible experience.
Thank you so much for being on the show.

Francesco (01:07:08):
Thank you for having me on.
This was a lot of fun.
You're fantastic.
I love your energy and Ilisten to you all the time.
I love the fact that we didn't go intothe technicality of food photography
because frankly, that's secondaryand I think it's about people it's
about how you approach business.
So this was fantastic.
Can't wait to to listen to this.

Mica (01:07:25):
Ah, yes.
Again, thank you for being on the show.
I just I learned so much.
This is wonderful.

Francesco (01:07:32):
You're welcome.
It's been a pleasure.