July 30, 2025 • 52 mins
Curiosity. Simplicity. The courage to pivot.
What if those were the keys to unlocking your next big breakthrough?
What if you didn’t need to have it all figured out? What if all you needed was just a willingness to follow what lights you up?
These are the powerful themes Adrian Mueller and host Mica McCook unpack in this episode of The Savory Shot.
Adrian shares how his never-ending curiosity keeps him learning, growing, and evolving in his work. He reminds us that being a student of your craft is a mindset. One that opens doors, builds momentum, and leads to fresh ideas.
He also dives deep into the art of simplicity, and let me tell you, it’s not as easy as it looks. Adrian explains how creating something clean, focused, and truly beautiful takes serious intention and skill.
Feeling stuck? Wondering what’s next? This episode will challenge you in the best way. It’ll have you looking around with fresh eyes, asking “What if I tried that?” and “Why not go for it?”
Whether you're ready for a pivot or simply need a spark to re-ignite your passion, this conversation is your reminder to stay curious, get clear, and keep going.
Meet Adrian MuellerIn Episode 065 of The Savory Shot, we sit down with Adrian Mueller, a commercial photographer and tabletop director based in New York by way of Switzerland. With a career that started after walking away from a life of professional soccer, Adrian brings a thoughtful, humble approach to his work that’s rooted in his belief that “beauty lives in simplicity.”
What You’ll Learn in This ConversationAdrian shares how curiosity helped him pivot his life, how simplicity shapes his creative process, and why your style is your niche. He opens up about collaboration, communication, and staying grounded in an industry that often pushes noise over meaning.
💬 Join the ConversationSavory Shot Shownote: https://micamccook.com/guests/adrian-mueller-photographer/
Website: https://micamccook.com/podcast
Instagram: www.instragram.com/mica.mccook
Instagram: www.instagram.com/thesavoryshotpodcast
📣 Follow Adrian Mueller
Website:https://www.fabrik-studios.com/
Instagram: @mueller.adrian LinkedIn:/in/adrianmueller
Would you like to be a guest on the show? Fill out the guest form, and we'll be in touch soon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the 65th episode of theSavory Shot, a podcast about the art
and soul of working in food photography.
Y'all know I be.
I'm your host with the most Mica McCook.
I'm a food photographer basedin Austin, Texas, where the
(00:20):
days are staying hot and humid.
I think today we're in the uppernineties, y'all, my eyelids are sweating.
Before we ease into today'sconversation, I wanna take a moment
to thank y'all for being here.
(00:40):
No matter how long I go on ahiatus, y'all keep coming back
to listen to another episode.
So thank you for doing that.
Thank you for being here.
I hope you brought snacks andmaybe a seatbelt, and some
holy water and some prayers.
And most importantly, some coffee.
(01:04):
Now let's get into today's episode.
I had the absolute pleasure of chattingwith Adrian Mueller, a world class
photographer and tabletop directorbased in New York by way of Switzerland.
Adrian's approach is all aboutstripping away the excess
(01:26):
to reveal what's essential.
His motto, beauty in simplicity.
I like that.
In this episode, we talk about whatit really means to find your voice,
why your style is your niche, andhow Adrian balances commercial
demands with artistic integrity.
(01:47):
We also explore his reflectionson craft collaboration and the
discipline of staying curious, you'regonna feel inspired, affirmed, and
maybe called out in the best way.
Of course, in the best way.
We hear at the Savory Shotlisten and do not judge harshly.
(02:16):
This episode is an invitation toslow down, to listen more closely
and to see not just what's inthe frame, but what's beneath it.
So pour yourself a cup of something warm.
Let the noise fade.
(02:37):
Let's start the
show.
(03:10):
Adrian, thank you so much forcoming on the show, the Savory Shot.
I'm very excited to have you here.
Thank you very much for reaching out.
Pleasure to be on your podcast.
Yes, yes.
I wanna dive right in.
I've got so many questions and soI wanna start with your interview
(03:31):
that you did on the Creative Flex.
You talked about how soccer played apivotal role in your life growing up, and
how you went in a different direction.
You mentioned that after realizingprofessional soccer wasn't your path,
you completely changed direction.
And I definitely know that feeling, mybackground is in theater, and then I
(03:52):
realized, Oh, well, that's not gonna work.
And so changing thatwas a struggle for me.
So I'm curious for you what thatmoment was like for you and how
did you make peace with the shift?
Well, it wasn't all that hard.
I mean, obviously it was a boyhooddream, but at 20, I was only
offered a contract to start playingprofessionally in the second division.
(04:14):
At that time, I had higher ambitions.
I just didn't feel like, do I want togo into that direction and then grind
it out over years till you finallyreach where you would want to go?
Or do I wanna pivot andgo into a new direction?
And when I realized that the newdirection was more exciting, the
thought of it was more exciting,then I knew it wasn't all that hard.
(04:37):
To abandon what I've been doing for 10, 12years from a really early age on, and did
it very seriously and with great passion.
So the switch wasn't too big of a mentalleap because the excitement wasn't really
there to pursue it in a direction that Ifelt like I, I didn't really want to go.
And so I knew this decision wasright and it was time to move on.
(05:01):
I like that you said it was exciting.
Because like most people startingsomething new, especially when it's
been a part of your life for so long,it can be viewed as a scary thing.
And my therapist always tells me, insteadof thinking about what could go wrong,
get excited about what could go right.
(05:21):
And so I love that,that you mentioned that.
What were you the most excited about whengoing in this direction and pivoting?
Well, one thing was that I wouldleave Switzerland and pursue this
new direction somewhere else.
This happened to be in the UnitedStates, so the change of scenery,
change of culture, change of language.
(05:44):
That was one exciting part.
And the other exciting part wascertainly to do something that I
didn't think would be, or that I didn'tthink initially would be a viable
path to make a living, to combine itwith something that I always liked.
But to learn all the aspectsabout it and to be in a completely
new environment to do so.
(06:05):
So that was really the most exciting part.
Oh man.
You mentioned in the same interview thatyou know your brother is a photographer
and the joke was like, oh, we can'thave more than one photographer.
Was he supportive from the very start whenyou started venturing as a photographer?
Yes, definitely.
(06:26):
Initially, I didn't knowhow he would feel about it.
I knew that it probably wasn't agreat idea to pursue the same type of
career in the same town, same country.
Switzerland is very small.
I mean, it's the size of Massachusetts,Connecticut, and Rhode Island combined.
That is the size
What?
And we have about eight, eightand a half million population.
(06:50):
So if you start a business there, you doit with personal relations, relationships,
et cetera, and you grow it from there.
To have a competing business with afamily member in the same town, I wouldn't
even call it a city, Lucerne, is a sizeof 80,000, a hundred thousand people.
That's probably not a great idea.
So that's why when I decided if I go inthat direction, but I do it somewhere
(07:13):
else, then that concern would fall bythe wayside and it wouldn't be an issue.
And he was certainly very supportive.
And when I got started, we didhave an exchange in that regard.
And as everything worked out just fine.
So we didn't have any kind ofawkward family Christmas dinners,
et cetera, because of that.
(07:34):
I love that.
I love that.
And I imagine you and him likepassing knowledge and articles about
photography back and forth and justgrowing even closer with this shared
passion between the two of you.
It was very interesting becauseobviously we are brothers, but we
are, we have different personalities.
(07:55):
Well, we do have similar approachesto certain things because we both
grew up in Switzerland, so there'sa certain sense of design, a certain
sense of style, work ethic, et cetera.
So those are overlapping similarities.
Then there are other things thatare not obviously different.
And after I was in the United Stateslearning the craft after two, three
(08:17):
years, we were able to sort of compareour growth over that period of time
and see actually funny similarities,but also very exciting differences.
So that, that's an aspect thatI actually enjoyed afterwards
when we started working together.
You mentioned in that same interview aboutthe differences in how photography is
taught in the US compared to Switzerland.
(08:39):
What are those differences?
I felt at the time that the maindifference was that in Switzerland
it was a bit more methodical, so it'smore about the craft of shooting.
The detailed knowledge of how toproperly light different materials,
whether be glass, metal, et cetera.
Knowing how to be basically howto be an excellent all arounder,
(09:01):
know how to do good portraits.
You shoot your product lifestylemaybe in a little bit of fashion.
And in the US it was much more aboutpersonal expression, finding your style.
And then deciding on a niche ratherthan being a jack of all trades.
And that has different, the maindifference here is clearly size
(09:22):
of market and what you shouldbe able to do in Switzerland.
If you decide I'm just gonna shootproduct, then you really need to be able
to go across borders and also work inGermany, in France, in Italy, in England,
et cetera, to make it a viable career.
And if you know how to shoot everything,then you will be approached for
(09:44):
everything and, and you'll do everything.
And in the US it's very different.
You need to be specialized in a certainarea and then really hone it and create
your own style and have it be a formof personal expression to be distinct
enough so that you actually could bea viable option for certain projects.
So that was really the main, or isI think still the main difference.
(10:08):
You raise an interesting point aboutthat because this is a conversation that
I've had a bazillion times with so manyphotographers about whether to niche down
or to be a jack of all trades, and I havetwo people on two different spectrums.
There are those who are like photography.
As photography, you need to be able todo all you need to be able to sustain
(10:31):
yourself when economy's not going well.
Or when business is slow, you need tohave another niche that you can fall on.
And then there are those who are like,no, if you are going to niche, you need to
be like the best beverage photographer orthe best wedding photographer out there.
And so I'm curious, what's your stanceon that, being exposed to the two
(10:52):
different types of education, wheredo you lean or fall more towards?
Well, in the United States, I thinkit's important to have a niche and to be
really known for something in particular.
Obviously the other way you couldapproach is you're saying, my niche is
my style and it's an overarching style.
(11:13):
Whether I shoot portraits, whether Ishoot lifestyle or product, I have a
certain look, certain style sort oflighting that can really be translated
into these certain areas and itstill feels cohesive and coherent.
And that is the type of niche thatis broad basically because anybody
(11:35):
who has, let's say you would wannashoot watches, that can be lifestyle
watches, that can be product, et cetera.
That can be anything thatentails a certain look.
And if you can do all these areas,but with a very cohesive style, and
look, you actually would be veryvaluable partner in any collaboration
and not so distinct as in say, no,I only shoot drinks, for example.
(11:59):
So that's the new.
Probably a better way to describea successful niche than just
having one particular area thatyou would sort of specialize in.
Was there a defining moment where youfelt like you had fully established
your own voice as a photographer?
There wasn't a particular moment.
It's just over time, once certain awards,like the alerts, as archive to the best,
(12:24):
those worldwide recognition started toaccumulate along with shooting certain
campaigns that I always was striving for.
I knew that I coulddefinitely hold my own.
I could be successfuland happy working solo.
I would say it was sort of a periodof time of maybe two to three years
afterwards and then four yearsafterwards, I could clearly tell this
(12:46):
is going in the right direction andthe way I had imagined it, it could be.
So it wasn't one particularpivotal moment that's just
like an accumulation of things.
I like that it was little nuggetsof moments that collected and
you're like, oh yeah, I feel good.
In a past Q and a, you mentionedthat you avoid retouching food images
(13:11):
for editorial assignments and likecookbooks and things like that,
and I am fully on board with that.
What drives this approach and how doesit affect the authenticity of your work?
Yeah, so for editorial work and cookbooksin particular, I do keep post-production
(13:32):
to a minimum, and that really, thathas to do mainly with the look of
approachability, authenticity, since it'sreally important that whoever sees the
work can relate to it, and especiallywhen it comes to editorial and cookbooks,
you work closely together with a chef.
A writer.
(13:53):
So it's not really like top downhierarchy in regards to art direction.
It is more of a collaborationand a creative expression and
do and do enjoy the freedom.
To do that type of work and thenmake sure that what we produce is
authentic to what is written about orthe recipes that are being portrayed.
(14:16):
There are certain moments, obviously,when we do commercial work, we'll have
three pages of retouch notes, whichis not unusual, but in those jobs, I
make sure that those are handled byfull-time post-production partners,
since I'm also likely not going to havethe time to do the post-production.
While I'm preparing for the nextproject, but for editorial and
(14:38):
cookbooks, I really like to beoverseeing that part and also doing it
to make sure there is a relatabilitythat remains and it stays authentic.
That's true.
Do you ever receive any pushbackwhen it comes to that approach and
how do you handle it if you do?
I wouldn't say pushback.
It's more, oh, could we clean this up andcould we change this from here to there?
(15:02):
The answer is always, yes, we can do that.
Question is, why do we wanna do that?
And does it align with what we're, whatwe were trying to achieve initially?
And if it does, thenwe'll make those changes.
But very often a. We realizeafter making that change.
Yeah, I don't think that was a good idea.
And then it resolves by itself.
(15:24):
Obviously.
I don't want to be so rich as tosay, no, we're not doing that.
I'd rather do it and then let it speak foritself and say, see, I think its better.
We will believe that alonebecause it just doesn't match.
It doesn't match.
It doesn't feel right and thin.
There is agreement.
Once you have agreement, then youcan move forward without any issues.
(15:44):
And then they say, oh, this iswhy I hired you and your team.
Yes.
That's also, that's a good point.
Yes.
I'll just take a step back andlet you guys do your magic.
Yes, and of course there are always verystrong opinions about certain things.
Those opinions are always informedby other memories or preferences that
(16:07):
come from the past, and I respect that.
But in the end, once you look at it,you have to honestly look at it and say,
does it really do what we want it to do?
And if it doesn't, you have to let it goand then just go with what looks best.
I am curious of what it's like towork with a chef and if whether or not
that's a different experience and ifthey're as emotionally attached to the
(16:32):
cookbook as an author would be, andseen as how you've worked with both,
what would you say is the differencebetween working with a chef versus
working with the author on cookbooks?
I think when it comes to working witha chef, it's really about, mostly
about presentation, because they wouldpresent it as it would be presented
(16:53):
when you eat it, and sometimesthat's that can look or be very
different from how you would style it.
When you shoot it for obvious reasons andyou have a sauce, et cetera, you wanna
make sure that the sauce comes very last.
You can do your initial shots without it.
And then when you dribble sauce over it,if it goes overboard, you can scale it
back because you have layers of othercaptures that are a little bit reduced.
(17:15):
Those are sort of interactionswith a chef that come naturally
and we discuss it, et cetera.
But for chefs, it's really abouthow does it look the way I present
it because we with a photograph orreally we don't have advantage of
smelling it, tasting it, et cetera.
It's really just looking at it and therethey very much lean into my experience
and what I think would be best.
(17:37):
When it comes to authors, they're veryconcerned obviously, that the recipe
that they're writing and everythingthat is about either the culture of
the dish or the heritage of it, isauthentic with how we capture it,
and that there are certain aspectsof it that they show and sometimes.
When you have certain ingredients orspices that they really need to show
(18:00):
up in the image so that it translates.
So that's another discussion that you,sometimes you don't have that with a
chef, and then you have to collaboratewith the author, the writer, to make sure
that those elements really are shown andwhere do you show it so that it's not
too obvious, not too staged, et cetera.
But those are the two main differences.
(18:20):
On your website, you shared that you spenttime in Japan and that it had a profound
impact on your creative perspective.
What was it about that experiencethat shifted the way that you
see the world and your work?
Well, it had mainly to do with myown impression of how I operate.
(18:42):
'cause I was always, I view myselfas, as quite organized that I'm always
well prepared for shoots and beingfrom Switzerland that I have a certain
work ethic that's ingrained, et cetera.
But sort of once I started to learn overtime how people in different cultures in
(19:03):
this, in regard to Japan in particular,how they work and how dedicated they are
about every detail, no matter how small,I just didn't realize that I've only
sort of scratched the surface of whatit means to be a real artisan, someone
who knows how to combine art, the art ofdoing something with something that is
(19:24):
combined with really well honed craft.
So craftsmanship.
It's on a completely differentlevel that that I was used to.
Knowing your tools, every detail of yourwork, and then continuously trying to hone
it and expand is that has sort of become atheme as to to never stop, to always look
how to further improve, but just to sortof keep on going one step by the time.
(19:47):
And that ties in with what I'vementioned before, if it is the style.
That is your niche, then you also needyour style to evolve because five years
from now, your style is gonna be outdatedand so you need to keep on moving.
And that's sort of the things thatI had to take to heart and tell
(20:09):
myself, well, yes, you have a goodbase, but that's a starting point
and to always see it that way.
'cause you could find mastersof certain crafts and there.
70, 75, and they still seethemselves as an apprentice.
That goes through thesteps of learning more.
And once you get to a certain point,if you feel like I'm a master now,
(20:33):
that's a probably problematic pointbecause from there on, there's
not a lot of improvement left.
Right.
But that sort of needs tobe the attitude overall.
Oh yes.
I love that, that you need to seeyourself as a forever student.
'cause if you feel like you've masteredsomething, then that's where the boredom
comes in, and then you just stop trying.
(20:53):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
And then that ties into ego.
And we all have a little bit of an ego.
We all wanna make sure that we canexpress ourselves the way we intend
to, but that shouldn't stop ourselvesfrom being able to look up and see you.
That actually, even though I've beendoing this for 10, 20, whatever years
now, that actually might be a good idea.
Let's incorporate that or let'stake the next step or take a
(21:16):
risk in your, the way you evolve.
Do something where you not feel supercomfortable because it isn't exactly
aligned with what you're used to.
And then see that as a possible step into.
The next phase next.
So that's really important Ithink, to have in mind that task.
(21:37):
I'd love to make friends withphotographers overseas because A, I'm
just a nosy person and I wanna knoweverything about what everybody's doing.
What I struggle with is how toapproach them and say, Hey, can we
swap ideas and learn from each other?
What has been your bestapproach that's worked for you?
(21:58):
Mainly it's as you mentionedbefore, curiosity, right?
If you approach somebody andsay, can you tell me this?
Can you tell me that?
That might not come off ascollaborative or interested.
That seems more like somethingthat you are trying to get.
So instead of doing that, it'sjust the curiosity of asking
(22:18):
questions like, this looks amazing.
I've been doing this for a long time.
I have no clue how you did that.
Those are things that you then tieinto a conversation, which also
means you show the appreciation ofwhat this person was able to create.
And even though you are also quiteexperienced that you don't know how that
happened, there's a genuine curiosity.
(22:40):
On how this could bedone or how it was done.
And then this exchange happensa little bit more genuinely.
Also, because you then can share howyou usually do things and what the
result of that is, and if, especiallyif it's something that isn't exactly
what the other person is doing.
And that exchange usually leads to, reallylovely things and the good relationship
(23:03):
that brings it to the next level.
Not only your work, butalso the way you interact.
So rather than go and trying tosay, how can I replicate this?
How can I copy this more of a genuineapproach, interest and curiosity probably
is gonna go much further than that.
What's been your favorite icebreakerquestion when meeting a new photographer?
(23:27):
This is amazing.
How did you do this?
I love that so much.
I love that so much.
'Cause it's honest.
It's really honest becausethat's my first thought, right?
I look at this, this is incredible.
I can connect to this.
Trying to figure out why, what are sort oflike the emotional cues that are triggered
(23:50):
and then genuinely, how did you do this?
I'm trying to see reflections.
They're trying to see the light direction.
They're trying to see highlights.
Obviously.
Then I'm like, okay, the lightmust have come from here.
Must have been this type source.
But if it's this source that I thinkit is, or that light shaping tool
that I think it is, that would meanthat this area would be darker.
(24:13):
So then how does this work?
He was like, this is amazing.
Yeah.
How did you do that?
Yes, exactly.
Yep.
Yes.
And it probably also feeds theirego where they're like, eh, let me.
Yes, as it should, becausethey definitely worked on it.
Yeah.
So that is a genuinecompliment that they deserve.
(24:33):
That's a great icebreaker question.
I'm gonna use that.
I'm basically gonna useeverything you've advised.
So 10, 20 years you've been in this,what's something that you've learned
recently that is exciting for you?
I think one aspect that's been excitingthe last 12, 24 months, which at the same
(24:55):
time has been a bit scary, is how it hasevolved in regards to post-production.
Obviously with AI tools inpost-production, I'm now capable of
doing things on my own that I'd saytwo, three years ago there was no way.
There was no way.
I could have done that at the same leveland the same quality as I can do it now.
(25:18):
So now I have certain requests forpost-production where I know, obviously
with my knowledge and experience ofretouching for the last 20 years,
that in addition to having the AItools available, I can handle this.
And in the past I was.
No way.
There's no way I would've to go toa post-production company or friends
(25:39):
and retouchers who only do that.
So that's on one hand,an exciting development.
On the other hand, it's also a bitscary because obviously you don't
wanna move into a direction whereyou then start to take on everything
because I'm a photographer, director.
I'm not a retouch, but it's certainlythe case that sometimes there are certain
(26:01):
projects where we have retouching budgetfor really important elements, and then
for other work, it just doesn't makesense to hand that to a retouching or
post-production house because they wouldeven say, this is not worth our time.
And in those instances, I can thenabsolutely step in and make those changes.
And that's been liberating.
(26:24):
That's been liberating,but also a little scary.
Honest about.
I wanna take it to your motto, beauty andsimplicity and how that guides your work.
How did this philosophy come about?
The first thing I thought of was MarieKondo, where is just minimalist and
remove everything that isn't necessary.
And I'm like, wow.
So, but I wanna hear how did that comeabout and how is it impacting you today?
(26:49):
Still as a photographer?
Right.
Well, I believe it that it'sactually quite difficult.
To create something that isboth inherently beautiful and
simple looking at the same time.
'Cause you really would have toreduce whatever you're capturing
to its essence to find the essenceof what you're capturing and the
essence of what you wanna say, andto still be able to elegantly like
(27:14):
provide a truthful representation ina relatable and approachable manner.
That is a task that's hard andit's not understood by many on how
to achieve that consistently ina certain style and do it well.
The other thing is really, we'resurrounded by noise constantly.
(27:35):
Visual noise, auditory noise.
I find it amazing the satisfying tocreate images and videos that seem to cut
through that to provide something calm.
Sound like sort of reassuring and that,I guess is what I mean with simplicity.
I don't mean simplicity in anykind of negative connotation.
(28:00):
It just needs to besomething that provides joy.
And I hope it would provide joy tothose who see the work as well, to
sort of feel grounded, reassured,and to feel a sense of calm.
And that's where simplicity comes in.
I know a lot of people when they seebeauty and simplicity, they might
think that means one object sort ofabstract in a very sort of empty space,
(28:25):
and that's not really what I mean.
Yeah, that's the firstthing that I thought of.
You can have a scene staged whetheryou have talent or humanity within
it that has several elements thatall tie together, and then a type of
light that really is coherent withthe subject that you're shooting.
(28:47):
Then you start in your processof capturing, you decide,
does it need to be here?
Does it need to move to the corner?
Does it need to come out completely?
Simplicity doesn't mean empty.
For me, it just means essence.
And if you can create that essencewith three, four objects, fantastic.
If it needs six, that's great.
If it's just needs one or two and thebeautiful surface and the exceptional
(29:10):
light, then that's all fine.
It's really not about the numberof things, but what it means
that you're trying to say.
And if you can boil it down to theessence of what you wanna say, then you
will have created building simplicity.
That's where that comes from.
I wanna take it to A Photo Editor.
I saw your postcard featured,and anyone who is not following
(29:33):
A Photo Editor should be.
There's so much knowledge and advicethat I've gotten over the years.
I was first turned to it when I was inschool and we were learning about setting
out postcards, marketing ourselves,things like that, and we learned that
marketing is a huge part of our work andhow we market ourselves is much different
(29:58):
than how a, B2C I think this businessto customer would market themselves.
What strategies have worked for you inmarketing your photography and what.
This is a side question.
What prompted you to send inyour postcard to A Photo Editor?
Well, with A Photo Editor, I've beenfollowing that channel for a while.
(30:20):
I know the person behind it, andI felt like I've seen so many of
those mailers that came in and thathe shared, and I felt like that's
something I would love to do as well.
Not just for the recognition or thesharing reason for it, but to be
part of a community that does that.
That was the first thought about it.
(30:40):
When it comes to sort of strategies,it's sort of a, it's a mix of things
that I do that I think is not all thatdifferent from what others are doing.
It's, uh, I do social media outreachthrough LinkedIn and Instagram, which
is also something that I actually enjoy.
I have a curated list of about1500 people, close contacts, who
(31:04):
signed up to receive my emails.
So those are people that I've worked with.
Or I'm working with right now, peoplethat I wanted to work with, but
maybe the project did not work out.
So really contacts that are interestedin my progress, things that are going
on that that I know they would wannasee an email or they send up for it.
(31:26):
So that's something that I doabout two to three times a year.
It's sort of like designed emailwith work and updates, et cetera,
which has excellent tractionbecause the people receive it.
They were on that list, they wanna see it.
The open rates and the clickrates are are excellent.
What I also use are platforms likeBoulevard Artists and Ad Edge to have a
(31:49):
presence there because you never know.
So that's sort of more like PR,so that you are top of mind.
If people go to certain placesand say, oh, here he is, that's,
what's that, what that is?
Boulevard Artists and At Edge, and I goto portfolio meetings either in person.
Through New York City Photo Worksor online where you can sign up
(32:11):
and meet people that's also throughBoulevard or we are at the table or
at edge, face-to-face, et cetera.
That's something really important for me.
I wanna meet people personally andI want to make sure that whoever I'm
meeting, I can research, I can clearlytell what they're looking for so that
whatever meeting I have, 10, 20 minutes.
(32:32):
I cannot only make a connection with thatperson, but really present work that is
relevant to what they're doing so that.
It's obviously one-to-one marketing.
That's not broad marketing, but it's,for me, it's been very effective.
I can go to meetings three times,four times a year, and I know the
connections I make there will lead towork either immediately or long term,
(32:57):
three, four or five years later, etcetera, if you're staying in touch.
And that's also the reason why I organizemeetings directly at ad agencies.
That's been possible againfor the last couple of years.
They're open to portfoliobreakfasts, et cetera, with their
creatives, which I enjoy that a lot.
Oh, that's cool.
Depending on where I'm going, whichagency that I'm going to and what
(33:20):
accounts they have, I might bringalong certain catering that I also
make branded catering in that sense,where my logo or whatever it is there.
So obviously you meet 20, 30, 40 people.
I understand they, they come fora donut and a coffee or whatever
it is that we're bringing along.
But what they might remember if it'snot the work they might remember,
(33:40):
wow, did that really cool catering.
It was delicious.
It was branded.
Nobody had done that before.
Whatever it is, and then they rememberyou that way, or they take a picture of it
and then share it, not necessarily work.
That's sort of something that.
Needs to be understood.
It's not always about the work, it'smore about the connection and the
(34:01):
memoral things, trail of crumbs thatyou can leave, that people can remember.
So that's something I do.
Printed mailers only to people who arewilling to share their mailing address.
Obviously that's been, I haven't donea broad mailing campaign in years.
Uh, maybe last time 2019.
(34:21):
Then what's really important, andmaybe not everyone sees it the same
way, but I think to realize that oneof the best marketing tools is really
excellent communications before,during, and after job, or a project
that even not might have come your way.
That is really important.
(34:42):
Making a connection that is genuinefun, that can be down the road,
can really establish something evenif the job doesn't come right now.
That's an important strategy becausesometimes, obviously it's difficult.
You're shooting a job, you'rebidding for a job, and you're
prepping the next one, right?
You're doing that together with ateam of producers and collaborators,
(35:03):
or even agents if they're involvedin what you're doing, and sometimes
things can feel rushed or you'refinally shooting something that you've.
Worked on for two to three months.
Right now, now's the shoot time.
You have three or four days of shooting,and you wanna focus solely on shooting
because that's when you put all thework in it for the project to come.
(35:25):
And now you're shooting.
But then while you're shooting, you'reinundated with new requests, new
treatments, new estimates, et cetera.
That can feel really overwhelming.
And when you feel overwhelmed, veryoften, the way you communicate, whether
it's by email, in person, phone calls.
Might be a little tensewhen there's tension.
People can feel it, butthey don't know why.
(35:48):
They don't know why.
They don't see behind the curtain.
They don't see all the pressures andthe things that you have to deal with.
And if they don't see it, they feelthe tension but can't explain it,
and they feel like maybe it's notthe person to work with on the next
project to be conscious of that.
To be either be honest, you cansay really sorry, at the moment,
I'm just overwhelmed with work.
(36:10):
Or to be conscious of it and say,okay, then now's the time to calm down.
I'm gonna focus on this conversation onthis bit for the next 30 minutes until I
step forward so that your communicationsare honest, clean, genuine, kind, fun,
interested, all the things that youwould want in a collaborator, right?
(36:30):
So that they understand.
You can be a valuable partner in thisventure, and even if it's not for this
job, might not work out that the next one.
Remember her.
Remember him.
They were excellent.
Whatever reason, wecouldn't work with them.
Schedules didn't align.
Budgets didn't align.
Hire up creative, wanted towork with somebody else, but you
(36:53):
know, it was such a pleasure.
Let's try to get the next jobwith them, and that is a super
important marketing tool.
It just should be actually your owngeneral being that is like that.
I understand sometimes when tensionsare high, especially during a
shoot, you might not wanna dealwith A, B and C in addition to it.
(37:14):
But if you can be conscious ofthe fact that could be your next
best thing and to be really open.
To relax communications andto also think how can I help
them achieve what they want?
Then that is your best,excellent marketing tool.
It doesn't hurt to have great SEO.
(37:34):
If you have a website, obviouslyyou should have a website.
It doesn't hurt to have that.
I definitely invest time and money intothat as well, and I do get a significant
amount of inquiries and work throughbeing found with the right search terms.
Lasting impressions, lasting positiveimpressions with people who are in the
(37:54):
industry will lead to even better results.
And you mentioned earlier that I thoughtsuch a great point about taking your
time with building relationships.
And this is something for the long term.
It's not gonna be like right away.
A no doesn't mean no forever.
It just means not right now.
(38:15):
In a culture of like instantresults, I, if I send out an email,
I expect to get 10 jobs from it.
And if it doesn't happen, thenyou know, you get discouraged and
you don't wanna do it anymore,and that's just not how it works.
So I love that you pointed that out,that it's like you have to keep at
it, keep pushing, keep contacting,keep reaching out, and over time.
(38:42):
So, yeah, thanks for saying that.
I have no follow up question to that.
I just thought that was wonderful.
Besides communication skills, what aresome skills that photographers today
that aren't related to photographyshould be working on and developing
right now if they aren't already?
Well, I think the mostimportant thing is your mindset.
(39:04):
That ties into what we just spoke about.
The mindset needs to be long-term.
Because it's a career thatyou're trying to build.
I understand the need for jobs andfor mine, et cetera, but in the
end, it's the need to have long-termrelationships over short-term
satisfaction of the quick job here anda little bit money there, et cetera.
(39:26):
So that is sort of the overalloverarching ML that anybody who starts
out needs to keep in mind at all times.
Mindset, long-term goals, andthen the rest is a mix of things.
First, I think you should study the workof those who, whose work you like and
who shoot major campaigns right now.
(39:46):
That usually gives you pretty goodinsight of what's on the trend and then.
Yet, the next step is to work onyour own craft, which is really
important, and it also includes video.
I can't stress that enough.
Having a great portfolio and having greatreel at this point is really crucial.
And to have fun when you produce thatwork for your portfolio and really try
(40:07):
to shoot it your way to see it your way,and so that your style becomes distinct.
What I also saw being really helpful whenI started out is meeting with agents.
That's not necessarily with the goal.
Of being, going to an agent, gettingrepped, but to get honest feedback
(40:27):
and to get that feedback in anenvironment where no job is on the line.
Because once you go and meet withthat agencies and you have meetings
there, people will remember you.
And of course when you start out, youwork is not as honed and polished,
et cetera as it might need to be.
And if they see that, they might like it,but they feel like it's not there yet.
(40:51):
You will not get another meeting for atleast 3, 4, 5 years until it is where it
needs to be with those type of people.
So when you go meet with agents, youcan generally talk about where you
are in your career, where you wouldlike to go, and then they can help
you with insights and tips and howyou can get there without you feeling.
(41:13):
I'm not gonna see them again for anotherfive, six years because they don't
wanna see my work again until thenbecause they feel like I'm not ready.
So that's been really helpful andI did that quite consistently.
'Cause my goal was, at the verybeginning of my career, my goal was
to meet with at least a hundred peoplea year in person, to basically not
(41:37):
only get tips and strategies andsuch, but also to get work from it.
Because I figured.
If I meet a hundred people within theindustry all in or close to decision
making positions, then if three out ofthose hundred that I connect with really
feel like that's the right person,these three people can get me work.
(42:00):
That is significant and theirreferrals can lead to additional work.
So that's the same thing or that's thesame thing that happened when I met
with agents because obviously once Imeet with them, they can tell, okay,
this guy would be good if he wouldmeet with X, Y, and Z. 'cause they're
in the industry, they are really closeknit relationships with all people that
(42:24):
might be interested in seeing the work.
And then they can refer you and when youthen reach out to those people, you can
reach out with a strong referral saying.
Peter said, Susan said, Ishould meet with you and those
will get you meetings as well.
And then you can meet the a hundredpeople a year and not be disappointed
when you are in meeting number 75and nothing has happened yet, because
(42:48):
that just means you have 25 moremeetings left to find your three.
So then there's no discouragingor sense of discouragement, right?
Oh man.
I'm meeting number 60.
Nothing is happening.
Good.
That's also not the right person.
So I'm getting closer to the right people.
That's how, at least how I saw it.
That's obviously can be seen as agrind, but if you genuinely like meeting
(43:14):
people and interacting and showingwork and be open for tips if it's not
the right person for a project, andthat's actually an enjoyable experience.
So those are sort of my tipsfor anybody who's starting out.
And the very last thing that I can sayonce it comes to shooting, it's important
to remember that everyone who works withyou, whether it's the client, the creative
(43:38):
director, or your assistant, they'reall equally important, and the way you
interact with them is equally important.
I think the most discouraging thingfor an art director or a creative
director would be to come onto a setwhere they realize the photographer
is so nice to the creative team, butreally not cool with the collaborators
(44:03):
that he or she hired to make it happen.
Because in the end, it's a team effort.
I need excellent food stylists,excellent prop styles and set designers.
I need good assistance, so I wantthem to be obviously, conscious of the
fact, pay attention to what's going on.
Be collaborative.
I, I need great digital text onsetretouches, and I wanna communicate
(44:25):
with them in a manner that shows tothem that they're important to this
process and they have a stake in this.
Not just a payday for the dayfor coming, but they have a stake
in creating what we're doing.
And if that's done, I feel like thecreatives can see that this is a person.
That understands that sometimesit's the hierarchy is not vertical.
(44:50):
Sometimes it needs to be horizontalin a creative process and not
above somebody food stylist.
I can't do that.
I need that.
That needs to be communicated, andthat's really important to keep
in mind when you then start shoot.
Ah, I mean, you hit it on the nail.
I had my first adult job.
(45:10):
I worked at an architectoffice as an office manager.
The owner of the company, Herman, wasjust the most amazing human being.
And what I loved about working there wasjust how much he took care of everybody.
Everybody was taken care of.
And his motto, his belief was,you take care of your people,
(45:32):
they'll take care of you.
And I love that you said that.
That is so, so, so, so very important.
So I have two more questions, andthe first is for aspiring food
photographers who want to break intoadvertising and brand work, what's
the number one skill or mindset thatthey should focus on developing?
(45:56):
Yeah.
That basically was first of all,the mindset and then working on your
craft, trying to find out who shootsmajor campaigns, the work that you
liked, try to emulate, et cetera.
And the other thing that I mightnot have mentioned in that vein is
to not be afraid and ask for help.
(46:17):
Because when I started out, I thinkthat was sort of my, that's it.
It was sort of unfamiliar for meto go and ask for help, especially
when you want, when you wanna workon your portfolio and you're real.
So you have to ask, you shouldask stylists, prop stylists,
set designers, et cetera.
Would you be open tocollaborate, create a series?
(46:37):
Make storyboard, et cetera, creativedirection that they align with,
then work together with them tobrew something for your book.
And that's, I was always morefocused on what's next or what's
potentially next as in a job.
And then when I work for my portfolio,I hire people and I do this and that,
(47:01):
rather than saying, how about wecollaborate on this and you ask for help.
That's something thatI had a little bit of.
I wasn't quite sure how to goabout it and didn't feel very
comfortable because I always feltI might be indebted afterwards.
But that's something once you gainconfidence, I think as a really important
tool, because then you also buildrelationships with people that you can
(47:23):
afterwards hire when the jobs come along.
So that's an important thing to remember,to not be afraid and ask for help.
I have a follow up to that.
Who should you ask?
Should you ask people that arealready established because
they might be too busy?
Or should you ask people that are alsogetting started that are on where you
grow together in your respective careers?
(47:45):
So
who would you ask?
I would always say, let's start atthe top, because a no is a no, right?
So if somebody who is really good at whatthey're doing and they're established
that they know the process and theirexperience, they're really good.
They can elevate the work thatyou do, why not go ask them?
All they can say is no.
So if they say no, no problem, because ifyou don't ask them, it's the same outcome.
(48:10):
So you start at the top.
It's the same thing afterwards.
When you go and show work, once youfeel like you are confident enough
to go get the work, that you canalways ask people at the top, they
can say no, and then you go now.
So that's something that I would do.
In that regard, and then obviously in theend when it turns out to be also somebody
who's starting out in regards to styling,then you do that and you grow together.
(48:33):
There's nothing wrong with that,but there is also nothing wrong with
asking an established person to comeand help you out because you would be
surprised that when you have genuineinterest, curiosity, and admiration,
I mean, that needs to be genuine.
Then that comes through and a lot ofpeople are actually very open to help
(48:57):
out whether that is in advice or actualwork together to create a project.
So keep that in mind.
Don't be afraid.
Ah, yes.
I love that because theymight shock you and say yes.
I mean, yes.
I think I'd be more afraid of theyes than I'd be like, oh, okay.
Yeah, an alphabet.
Alright, let's do this.
(49:18):
Pecking up.
That
is scary so much.
Okay.
The other one is, what is excitingyou creatively these days?
I think it's just really combining stillsphotography with video to find ways
to create a more comprehensive story.
When you shoot a project, not justa secure, but just shooting stills,
(49:41):
how could you look if we are alsoshooting videos and what type of videos?
It doesn't have to be longform, and it doesn't have to
be over the top commercial.
It can be vignettes, little movingthings, little camera moves, little
my light moves, et cetera, thatevoke the feeling that you want to.
Create when people look at the still.
So in combination, it can be muchmore comprehensive and interesting,
(50:06):
and especially nowadays when peoplescroll and look at things and are
used to maybe two to four secondattention span, if you can grab them
and hold them a little longer becausesomething is moving, then even better.
So those are the elements that I'mreally looking for at the moment.
I feel like the cinemagraph is makinga comeback, and I'm so excited.
(50:27):
Yeah.
Little vignette is nice.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Finally, so my, my final questionis where can the listeners find
you and follow you and support you
Well, on Instagram, my handleis Mueller Adrian, that's
M-U-E-L-L-E-R, Adrian, A-D-R-I-A-N.
(50:51):
Website, a muller.com.
A-M-U-E-L-L-E r.com.
If you'd like to connect,obviously LinkedIn, same thing.
Muller, Adrian, and now on your podcast.
Yes, through your podcast as well.
Those are sort of the main areas,and once you go on those sites, you
(51:14):
will see how to reach me either byemail or direct messaging, et cetera.
If anyone has a questionto ask you, he is.
Put that energy out there that you can.
Feel free to ask him any questions.
Yes, absolutely.
Happy to do so.
Adrian, thank you so muchfor being on the show.
(51:35):
This was such a great conversation.
I enjoyed all of this so very much.
It really, it's an honor to have you here,so thank you for sharing your experience
and your insights and everything.
Thank you so much Mica.
It was really a pleasure speaking withyou and enjoy the last hour and a half
and I hope the listeners will as well.
And as you mentioned, if anybody has aquestion for me, please to reach out.
(51:56):
Um, definitely open to answerwhatever you might need to know.
Yay.
Yes.
This episode is written and producedby me, your host, Mica McCook.
Like this episode, give us afive star review on Apple Podcast
and subscribe to the Savory Shotwherever you get your podcast.
(52:17):
Or follow me your host, Mica McCook,on Instagram at Mica dot McCook.
Or you can follow the podcast onInstagram at a Savory Shot podcast.
If you have any questions, comments, orwould like to be featured on the show,
email us at podcast@thesavoryshot.com.
Welcome to the 65th episode of theSavory Shot, a podcast about the art
and soul of working in food photography.
Y'all know I be.
I'm your host with the most Mica McCook.
I'm a food photographer basedin Austin, Texas, where the
(00:20):
days are staying hot and humid.
I think today we're in the uppernineties, y'all, my eyelids are sweating.
Before we ease into today'sconversation, I wanna take a moment
to thank y'all for being here.
(00:40):
No matter how long I go on ahiatus, y'all keep coming back
to listen to another episode.
So thank you for doing that.
Thank you for being here.
I hope you brought snacks andmaybe a seatbelt, and some
holy water and some prayers.
And most importantly, some coffee.
(01:04):
Now let's get into today's episode.
I had the absolute pleasure of chattingwith Adrian Mueller, a world class
photographer and tabletop directorbased in New York by way of Switzerland.
Adrian's approach is all aboutstripping away the excess
(01:26):
to reveal what's essential.
His motto, beauty in simplicity.
I like that.
In this episode, we talk about whatit really means to find your voice,
why your style is your niche, andhow Adrian balances commercial
demands with artistic integrity.
(01:47):
We also explore his reflectionson craft collaboration and the
discipline of staying curious, you'regonna feel inspired, affirmed, and
maybe called out in the best way.
Of course, in the best way.
We hear at the Savory Shotlisten and do not judge harshly.
(02:16):
This episode is an invitation toslow down, to listen more closely
and to see not just what's inthe frame, but what's beneath it.
So pour yourself a cup of something warm.
Let the noise fade.
(02:37):
Let's start the
show.
(03:10):
Adrian, thank you so much forcoming on the show, the Savory Shot.
I'm very excited to have you here.
Thank you very much for reaching out.
Pleasure to be on your podcast.
Yes, yes.
I wanna dive right in.
I've got so many questions and soI wanna start with your interview
(03:31):
that you did on the Creative Flex.
You talked about how soccer played apivotal role in your life growing up, and
how you went in a different direction.
You mentioned that after realizingprofessional soccer wasn't your path,
you completely changed direction.
And I definitely know that feeling, mybackground is in theater, and then I
(03:52):
realized, Oh, well, that's not gonna work.
And so changing thatwas a struggle for me.
So I'm curious for you what thatmoment was like for you and how
did you make peace with the shift?
Well, it wasn't all that hard.
I mean, obviously it was a boyhooddream, but at 20, I was only
offered a contract to start playingprofessionally in the second division.
(04:14):
At that time, I had higher ambitions.
I just didn't feel like, do I want togo into that direction and then grind
it out over years till you finallyreach where you would want to go?
Or do I wanna pivot andgo into a new direction?
And when I realized that the newdirection was more exciting, the
thought of it was more exciting,then I knew it wasn't all that hard.
(04:37):
To abandon what I've been doing for 10, 12years from a really early age on, and did
it very seriously and with great passion.
So the switch wasn't too big of a mentalleap because the excitement wasn't really
there to pursue it in a direction that Ifelt like I, I didn't really want to go.
And so I knew this decision wasright and it was time to move on.
(05:01):
I like that you said it was exciting.
Because like most people startingsomething new, especially when it's
been a part of your life for so long,it can be viewed as a scary thing.
And my therapist always tells me, insteadof thinking about what could go wrong,
get excited about what could go right.
(05:21):
And so I love that,that you mentioned that.
What were you the most excited about whengoing in this direction and pivoting?
Well, one thing was that I wouldleave Switzerland and pursue this
new direction somewhere else.
This happened to be in the UnitedStates, so the change of scenery,
change of culture, change of language.
(05:44):
That was one exciting part.
And the other exciting part wascertainly to do something that I
didn't think would be, or that I didn'tthink initially would be a viable
path to make a living, to combine itwith something that I always liked.
But to learn all the aspectsabout it and to be in a completely
new environment to do so.
(06:05):
So that was really the most exciting part.
Oh man.
You mentioned in the same interview thatyou know your brother is a photographer
and the joke was like, oh, we can'thave more than one photographer.
Was he supportive from the very start whenyou started venturing as a photographer?
Yes, definitely.
(06:26):
Initially, I didn't knowhow he would feel about it.
I knew that it probably wasn't agreat idea to pursue the same type of
career in the same town, same country.
Switzerland is very small.
I mean, it's the size of Massachusetts,Connecticut, and Rhode Island combined.
That is the size
What?
And we have about eight, eightand a half million population.
(06:50):
So if you start a business there, you doit with personal relations, relationships,
et cetera, and you grow it from there.
To have a competing business with afamily member in the same town, I wouldn't
even call it a city, Lucerne, is a sizeof 80,000, a hundred thousand people.
That's probably not a great idea.
So that's why when I decided if I go inthat direction, but I do it somewhere
(07:13):
else, then that concern would fall bythe wayside and it wouldn't be an issue.
And he was certainly very supportive.
And when I got started, we didhave an exchange in that regard.
And as everything worked out just fine.
So we didn't have any kind ofawkward family Christmas dinners,
et cetera, because of that.
(07:34):
I love that.
I love that.
And I imagine you and him likepassing knowledge and articles about
photography back and forth and justgrowing even closer with this shared
passion between the two of you.
It was very interesting becauseobviously we are brothers, but we
are, we have different personalities.
(07:55):
Well, we do have similar approachesto certain things because we both
grew up in Switzerland, so there'sa certain sense of design, a certain
sense of style, work ethic, et cetera.
So those are overlapping similarities.
Then there are other things thatare not obviously different.
And after I was in the United Stateslearning the craft after two, three
(08:17):
years, we were able to sort of compareour growth over that period of time
and see actually funny similarities,but also very exciting differences.
So that, that's an aspect thatI actually enjoyed afterwards
when we started working together.
You mentioned in that same interview aboutthe differences in how photography is
taught in the US compared to Switzerland.
(08:39):
What are those differences?
I felt at the time that the maindifference was that in Switzerland
it was a bit more methodical, so it'smore about the craft of shooting.
The detailed knowledge of how toproperly light different materials,
whether be glass, metal, et cetera.
Knowing how to be basically howto be an excellent all arounder,
(09:01):
know how to do good portraits.
You shoot your product lifestylemaybe in a little bit of fashion.
And in the US it was much more aboutpersonal expression, finding your style.
And then deciding on a niche ratherthan being a jack of all trades.
And that has different, the maindifference here is clearly size
(09:22):
of market and what you shouldbe able to do in Switzerland.
If you decide I'm just gonna shootproduct, then you really need to be able
to go across borders and also work inGermany, in France, in Italy, in England,
et cetera, to make it a viable career.
And if you know how to shoot everything,then you will be approached for
(09:44):
everything and, and you'll do everything.
And in the US it's very different.
You need to be specialized in a certainarea and then really hone it and create
your own style and have it be a formof personal expression to be distinct
enough so that you actually could bea viable option for certain projects.
So that was really the main, or isI think still the main difference.
(10:08):
You raise an interesting point aboutthat because this is a conversation that
I've had a bazillion times with so manyphotographers about whether to niche down
or to be a jack of all trades, and I havetwo people on two different spectrums.
There are those who are like photography.
As photography, you need to be able todo all you need to be able to sustain
(10:31):
yourself when economy's not going well.
Or when business is slow, you need tohave another niche that you can fall on.
And then there are those who are like,no, if you are going to niche, you need to
be like the best beverage photographer orthe best wedding photographer out there.
And so I'm curious, what's your stanceon that, being exposed to the two
(10:52):
different types of education, wheredo you lean or fall more towards?
Well, in the United States, I thinkit's important to have a niche and to be
really known for something in particular.
Obviously the other way you couldapproach is you're saying, my niche is
my style and it's an overarching style.
(11:13):
Whether I shoot portraits, whether Ishoot lifestyle or product, I have a
certain look, certain style sort oflighting that can really be translated
into these certain areas and itstill feels cohesive and coherent.
And that is the type of niche thatis broad basically because anybody
(11:35):
who has, let's say you would wannashoot watches, that can be lifestyle
watches, that can be product, et cetera.
That can be anything thatentails a certain look.
And if you can do all these areas,but with a very cohesive style, and
look, you actually would be veryvaluable partner in any collaboration
and not so distinct as in say, no,I only shoot drinks, for example.
(11:59):
So that's the new.
Probably a better way to describea successful niche than just
having one particular area thatyou would sort of specialize in.
Was there a defining moment where youfelt like you had fully established
your own voice as a photographer?
There wasn't a particular moment.
It's just over time, once certain awards,like the alerts, as archive to the best,
(12:24):
those worldwide recognition started toaccumulate along with shooting certain
campaigns that I always was striving for.
I knew that I coulddefinitely hold my own.
I could be successfuland happy working solo.
I would say it was sort of a periodof time of maybe two to three years
afterwards and then four yearsafterwards, I could clearly tell this
(12:46):
is going in the right direction andthe way I had imagined it, it could be.
So it wasn't one particularpivotal moment that's just
like an accumulation of things.
I like that it was little nuggetsof moments that collected and
you're like, oh yeah, I feel good.
In a past Q and a, you mentionedthat you avoid retouching food images
(13:11):
for editorial assignments and likecookbooks and things like that,
and I am fully on board with that.
What drives this approach and how doesit affect the authenticity of your work?
Yeah, so for editorial work and cookbooksin particular, I do keep post-production
(13:32):
to a minimum, and that really, thathas to do mainly with the look of
approachability, authenticity, since it'sreally important that whoever sees the
work can relate to it, and especiallywhen it comes to editorial and cookbooks,
you work closely together with a chef.
A writer.
(13:53):
So it's not really like top downhierarchy in regards to art direction.
It is more of a collaborationand a creative expression and
do and do enjoy the freedom.
To do that type of work and thenmake sure that what we produce is
authentic to what is written about orthe recipes that are being portrayed.
(14:16):
There are certain moments, obviously,when we do commercial work, we'll have
three pages of retouch notes, whichis not unusual, but in those jobs, I
make sure that those are handled byfull-time post-production partners,
since I'm also likely not going to havethe time to do the post-production.
While I'm preparing for the nextproject, but for editorial and
(14:38):
cookbooks, I really like to beoverseeing that part and also doing it
to make sure there is a relatabilitythat remains and it stays authentic.
That's true.
Do you ever receive any pushbackwhen it comes to that approach and
how do you handle it if you do?
I wouldn't say pushback.
It's more, oh, could we clean this up andcould we change this from here to there?
(15:02):
The answer is always, yes, we can do that.
Question is, why do we wanna do that?
And does it align with what we're, whatwe were trying to achieve initially?
And if it does, thenwe'll make those changes.
But very often a. We realizeafter making that change.
Yeah, I don't think that was a good idea.
And then it resolves by itself.
(15:24):
Obviously.
I don't want to be so rich as tosay, no, we're not doing that.
I'd rather do it and then let it speak foritself and say, see, I think its better.
We will believe that alonebecause it just doesn't match.
It doesn't match.
It doesn't feel right and thin.
There is agreement.
Once you have agreement, then youcan move forward without any issues.
(15:44):
And then they say, oh, this iswhy I hired you and your team.
Yes.
That's also, that's a good point.
Yes.
I'll just take a step back andlet you guys do your magic.
Yes, and of course there are always verystrong opinions about certain things.
Those opinions are always informedby other memories or preferences that
(16:07):
come from the past, and I respect that.
But in the end, once you look at it,you have to honestly look at it and say,
does it really do what we want it to do?
And if it doesn't, you have to let it goand then just go with what looks best.
I am curious of what it's like towork with a chef and if whether or not
that's a different experience and ifthey're as emotionally attached to the
(16:32):
cookbook as an author would be, andseen as how you've worked with both,
what would you say is the differencebetween working with a chef versus
working with the author on cookbooks?
I think when it comes to working witha chef, it's really about, mostly
about presentation, because they wouldpresent it as it would be presented
(16:53):
when you eat it, and sometimesthat's that can look or be very
different from how you would style it.
When you shoot it for obvious reasons andyou have a sauce, et cetera, you wanna
make sure that the sauce comes very last.
You can do your initial shots without it.
And then when you dribble sauce over it,if it goes overboard, you can scale it
back because you have layers of othercaptures that are a little bit reduced.
(17:15):
Those are sort of interactionswith a chef that come naturally
and we discuss it, et cetera.
But for chefs, it's really abouthow does it look the way I present
it because we with a photograph orreally we don't have advantage of
smelling it, tasting it, et cetera.
It's really just looking at it and therethey very much lean into my experience
and what I think would be best.
(17:37):
When it comes to authors, they're veryconcerned obviously, that the recipe
that they're writing and everythingthat is about either the culture of
the dish or the heritage of it, isauthentic with how we capture it,
and that there are certain aspectsof it that they show and sometimes.
When you have certain ingredients orspices that they really need to show
(18:00):
up in the image so that it translates.
So that's another discussion that you,sometimes you don't have that with a
chef, and then you have to collaboratewith the author, the writer, to make sure
that those elements really are shown andwhere do you show it so that it's not
too obvious, not too staged, et cetera.
But those are the two main differences.
(18:20):
On your website, you shared that you spenttime in Japan and that it had a profound
impact on your creative perspective.
What was it about that experiencethat shifted the way that you
see the world and your work?
Well, it had mainly to do with myown impression of how I operate.
(18:42):
'cause I was always, I view myselfas, as quite organized that I'm always
well prepared for shoots and beingfrom Switzerland that I have a certain
work ethic that's ingrained, et cetera.
But sort of once I started to learn overtime how people in different cultures in
(19:03):
this, in regard to Japan in particular,how they work and how dedicated they are
about every detail, no matter how small,I just didn't realize that I've only
sort of scratched the surface of whatit means to be a real artisan, someone
who knows how to combine art, the art ofdoing something with something that is
(19:24):
combined with really well honed craft.
So craftsmanship.
It's on a completely differentlevel that that I was used to.
Knowing your tools, every detail of yourwork, and then continuously trying to hone
it and expand is that has sort of become atheme as to to never stop, to always look
how to further improve, but just to sortof keep on going one step by the time.
(19:47):
And that ties in with what I'vementioned before, if it is the style.
That is your niche, then you also needyour style to evolve because five years
from now, your style is gonna be outdatedand so you need to keep on moving.
And that's sort of the things thatI had to take to heart and tell
(20:09):
myself, well, yes, you have a goodbase, but that's a starting point
and to always see it that way.
'cause you could find mastersof certain crafts and there.
70, 75, and they still seethemselves as an apprentice.
That goes through thesteps of learning more.
And once you get to a certain point,if you feel like I'm a master now,
(20:33):
that's a probably problematic pointbecause from there on, there's
not a lot of improvement left.
Right.
But that sort of needs tobe the attitude overall.
Oh yes.
I love that, that you need to seeyourself as a forever student.
'cause if you feel like you've masteredsomething, then that's where the boredom
comes in, and then you just stop trying.
(20:53):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
And then that ties into ego.
And we all have a little bit of an ego.
We all wanna make sure that we canexpress ourselves the way we intend
to, but that shouldn't stop ourselvesfrom being able to look up and see you.
That actually, even though I've beendoing this for 10, 20, whatever years
now, that actually might be a good idea.
Let's incorporate that or let'stake the next step or take a
(21:16):
risk in your, the way you evolve.
Do something where you not feel supercomfortable because it isn't exactly
aligned with what you're used to.
And then see that as a possible step into.
The next phase next.
So that's really important Ithink, to have in mind that task.
(21:37):
I'd love to make friends withphotographers overseas because A, I'm
just a nosy person and I wanna knoweverything about what everybody's doing.
What I struggle with is how toapproach them and say, Hey, can we
swap ideas and learn from each other?
What has been your bestapproach that's worked for you?
(21:58):
Mainly it's as you mentionedbefore, curiosity, right?
If you approach somebody andsay, can you tell me this?
Can you tell me that?
That might not come off ascollaborative or interested.
That seems more like somethingthat you are trying to get.
So instead of doing that, it'sjust the curiosity of asking
(22:18):
questions like, this looks amazing.
I've been doing this for a long time.
I have no clue how you did that.
Those are things that you then tieinto a conversation, which also
means you show the appreciation ofwhat this person was able to create.
And even though you are also quiteexperienced that you don't know how that
happened, there's a genuine curiosity.
(22:40):
On how this could bedone or how it was done.
And then this exchange happensa little bit more genuinely.
Also, because you then can share howyou usually do things and what the
result of that is, and if, especiallyif it's something that isn't exactly
what the other person is doing.
And that exchange usually leads to, reallylovely things and the good relationship
(23:03):
that brings it to the next level.
Not only your work, butalso the way you interact.
So rather than go and trying tosay, how can I replicate this?
How can I copy this more of a genuineapproach, interest and curiosity probably
is gonna go much further than that.
What's been your favorite icebreakerquestion when meeting a new photographer?
(23:27):
This is amazing.
How did you do this?
I love that so much.
I love that so much.
'Cause it's honest.
It's really honest becausethat's my first thought, right?
I look at this, this is incredible.
I can connect to this.
Trying to figure out why, what are sort oflike the emotional cues that are triggered
(23:50):
and then genuinely, how did you do this?
I'm trying to see reflections.
They're trying to see the light direction.
They're trying to see highlights.
Obviously.
Then I'm like, okay, the lightmust have come from here.
Must have been this type source.
But if it's this source that I thinkit is, or that light shaping tool
that I think it is, that would meanthat this area would be darker.
(24:13):
So then how does this work?
He was like, this is amazing.
Yeah.
How did you do that?
Yes, exactly.
Yep.
Yes.
And it probably also feeds theirego where they're like, eh, let me.
Yes, as it should, becausethey definitely worked on it.
Yeah.
So that is a genuinecompliment that they deserve.
(24:33):
That's a great icebreaker question.
I'm gonna use that.
I'm basically gonna useeverything you've advised.
So 10, 20 years you've been in this,what's something that you've learned
recently that is exciting for you?
I think one aspect that's been excitingthe last 12, 24 months, which at the same
(24:55):
time has been a bit scary, is how it hasevolved in regards to post-production.
Obviously with AI tools inpost-production, I'm now capable of
doing things on my own that I'd saytwo, three years ago there was no way.
There was no way.
I could have done that at the same leveland the same quality as I can do it now.
(25:18):
So now I have certain requests forpost-production where I know, obviously
with my knowledge and experience ofretouching for the last 20 years,
that in addition to having the AItools available, I can handle this.
And in the past I was.
No way.
There's no way I would've to go toa post-production company or friends
(25:39):
and retouchers who only do that.
So that's on one hand,an exciting development.
On the other hand, it's also a bitscary because obviously you don't
wanna move into a direction whereyou then start to take on everything
because I'm a photographer, director.
I'm not a retouch, but it's certainlythe case that sometimes there are certain
(26:01):
projects where we have retouching budgetfor really important elements, and then
for other work, it just doesn't makesense to hand that to a retouching or
post-production house because they wouldeven say, this is not worth our time.
And in those instances, I can thenabsolutely step in and make those changes.
And that's been liberating.
(26:24):
That's been liberating,but also a little scary.
Honest about.
I wanna take it to your motto, beauty andsimplicity and how that guides your work.
How did this philosophy come about?
The first thing I thought of was MarieKondo, where is just minimalist and
remove everything that isn't necessary.
And I'm like, wow.
So, but I wanna hear how did that comeabout and how is it impacting you today?
(26:49):
Still as a photographer?
Right.
Well, I believe it that it'sactually quite difficult.
To create something that isboth inherently beautiful and
simple looking at the same time.
'Cause you really would have toreduce whatever you're capturing
to its essence to find the essenceof what you're capturing and the
essence of what you wanna say, andto still be able to elegantly like
(27:14):
provide a truthful representation ina relatable and approachable manner.
That is a task that's hard andit's not understood by many on how
to achieve that consistently ina certain style and do it well.
The other thing is really, we'resurrounded by noise constantly.
(27:35):
Visual noise, auditory noise.
I find it amazing the satisfying tocreate images and videos that seem to cut
through that to provide something calm.
Sound like sort of reassuring and that,I guess is what I mean with simplicity.
I don't mean simplicity in anykind of negative connotation.
(28:00):
It just needs to besomething that provides joy.
And I hope it would provide joy tothose who see the work as well, to
sort of feel grounded, reassured,and to feel a sense of calm.
And that's where simplicity comes in.
I know a lot of people when they seebeauty and simplicity, they might
think that means one object sort ofabstract in a very sort of empty space,
(28:25):
and that's not really what I mean.
Yeah, that's the firstthing that I thought of.
You can have a scene staged whetheryou have talent or humanity within
it that has several elements thatall tie together, and then a type of
light that really is coherent withthe subject that you're shooting.
(28:47):
Then you start in your processof capturing, you decide,
does it need to be here?
Does it need to move to the corner?
Does it need to come out completely?
Simplicity doesn't mean empty.
For me, it just means essence.
And if you can create that essencewith three, four objects, fantastic.
If it needs six, that's great.
If it's just needs one or two and thebeautiful surface and the exceptional
(29:10):
light, then that's all fine.
It's really not about the numberof things, but what it means
that you're trying to say.
And if you can boil it down to theessence of what you wanna say, then you
will have created building simplicity.
That's where that comes from.
I wanna take it to A Photo Editor.
I saw your postcard featured,and anyone who is not following
(29:33):
A Photo Editor should be.
There's so much knowledge and advicethat I've gotten over the years.
I was first turned to it when I was inschool and we were learning about setting
out postcards, marketing ourselves,things like that, and we learned that
marketing is a huge part of our work andhow we market ourselves is much different
(29:58):
than how a, B2C I think this businessto customer would market themselves.
What strategies have worked for you inmarketing your photography and what.
This is a side question.
What prompted you to send inyour postcard to A Photo Editor?
Well, with A Photo Editor, I've beenfollowing that channel for a while.
(30:20):
I know the person behind it, andI felt like I've seen so many of
those mailers that came in and thathe shared, and I felt like that's
something I would love to do as well.
Not just for the recognition or thesharing reason for it, but to be
part of a community that does that.
That was the first thought about it.
(30:40):
When it comes to sort of strategies,it's sort of a, it's a mix of things
that I do that I think is not all thatdifferent from what others are doing.
It's, uh, I do social media outreachthrough LinkedIn and Instagram, which
is also something that I actually enjoy.
I have a curated list of about1500 people, close contacts, who
(31:04):
signed up to receive my emails.
So those are people that I've worked with.
Or I'm working with right now, peoplethat I wanted to work with, but
maybe the project did not work out.
So really contacts that are interestedin my progress, things that are going
on that that I know they would wannasee an email or they send up for it.
(31:26):
So that's something that I doabout two to three times a year.
It's sort of like designed emailwith work and updates, et cetera,
which has excellent tractionbecause the people receive it.
They were on that list, they wanna see it.
The open rates and the clickrates are are excellent.
What I also use are platforms likeBoulevard Artists and Ad Edge to have a
(31:49):
presence there because you never know.
So that's sort of more like PR,so that you are top of mind.
If people go to certain placesand say, oh, here he is, that's,
what's that, what that is?
Boulevard Artists and At Edge, and I goto portfolio meetings either in person.
Through New York City Photo Worksor online where you can sign up
(32:11):
and meet people that's also throughBoulevard or we are at the table or
at edge, face-to-face, et cetera.
That's something really important for me.
I wanna meet people personally andI want to make sure that whoever I'm
meeting, I can research, I can clearlytell what they're looking for so that
whatever meeting I have, 10, 20 minutes.
(32:32):
I cannot only make a connection with thatperson, but really present work that is
relevant to what they're doing so that.
It's obviously one-to-one marketing.
That's not broad marketing, but it's,for me, it's been very effective.
I can go to meetings three times,four times a year, and I know the
connections I make there will lead towork either immediately or long term,
(32:57):
three, four or five years later, etcetera, if you're staying in touch.
And that's also the reason why I organizemeetings directly at ad agencies.
That's been possible againfor the last couple of years.
They're open to portfoliobreakfasts, et cetera, with their
creatives, which I enjoy that a lot.
Oh, that's cool.
Depending on where I'm going, whichagency that I'm going to and what
(33:20):
accounts they have, I might bringalong certain catering that I also
make branded catering in that sense,where my logo or whatever it is there.
So obviously you meet 20, 30, 40 people.
I understand they, they come fora donut and a coffee or whatever
it is that we're bringing along.
But what they might remember if it'snot the work they might remember,
(33:40):
wow, did that really cool catering.
It was delicious.
It was branded.
Nobody had done that before.
Whatever it is, and then they rememberyou that way, or they take a picture of it
and then share it, not necessarily work.
That's sort of something that.
Needs to be understood.
It's not always about the work, it'smore about the connection and the
(34:01):
memoral things, trail of crumbs thatyou can leave, that people can remember.
So that's something I do.
Printed mailers only to people who arewilling to share their mailing address.
Obviously that's been, I haven't donea broad mailing campaign in years.
Uh, maybe last time 2019.
(34:21):
Then what's really important, andmaybe not everyone sees it the same
way, but I think to realize that oneof the best marketing tools is really
excellent communications before,during, and after job, or a project
that even not might have come your way.
That is really important.
(34:42):
Making a connection that is genuinefun, that can be down the road,
can really establish something evenif the job doesn't come right now.
That's an important strategy becausesometimes, obviously it's difficult.
You're shooting a job, you'rebidding for a job, and you're
prepping the next one, right?
You're doing that together with ateam of producers and collaborators,
(35:03):
or even agents if they're involvedin what you're doing, and sometimes
things can feel rushed or you'refinally shooting something that you've.
Worked on for two to three months.
Right now, now's the shoot time.
You have three or four days of shooting,and you wanna focus solely on shooting
because that's when you put all thework in it for the project to come.
(35:25):
And now you're shooting.
But then while you're shooting, you'reinundated with new requests, new
treatments, new estimates, et cetera.
That can feel really overwhelming.
And when you feel overwhelmed, veryoften, the way you communicate, whether
it's by email, in person, phone calls.
Might be a little tensewhen there's tension.
People can feel it, butthey don't know why.
(35:48):
They don't know why.
They don't see behind the curtain.
They don't see all the pressures andthe things that you have to deal with.
And if they don't see it, they feelthe tension but can't explain it,
and they feel like maybe it's notthe person to work with on the next
project to be conscious of that.
To be either be honest, you cansay really sorry, at the moment,
I'm just overwhelmed with work.
(36:10):
Or to be conscious of it and say,okay, then now's the time to calm down.
I'm gonna focus on this conversation onthis bit for the next 30 minutes until I
step forward so that your communicationsare honest, clean, genuine, kind, fun,
interested, all the things that youwould want in a collaborator, right?
(36:30):
So that they understand.
You can be a valuable partner in thisventure, and even if it's not for this
job, might not work out that the next one.
Remember her.
Remember him.
They were excellent.
Whatever reason, wecouldn't work with them.
Schedules didn't align.
Budgets didn't align.
Hire up creative, wanted towork with somebody else, but you
(36:53):
know, it was such a pleasure.
Let's try to get the next jobwith them, and that is a super
important marketing tool.
It just should be actually your owngeneral being that is like that.
I understand sometimes when tensionsare high, especially during a
shoot, you might not wanna dealwith A, B and C in addition to it.
(37:14):
But if you can be conscious ofthe fact that could be your next
best thing and to be really open.
To relax communications andto also think how can I help
them achieve what they want?
Then that is your best,excellent marketing tool.
It doesn't hurt to have great SEO.
(37:34):
If you have a website, obviouslyyou should have a website.
It doesn't hurt to have that.
I definitely invest time and money intothat as well, and I do get a significant
amount of inquiries and work throughbeing found with the right search terms.
Lasting impressions, lasting positiveimpressions with people who are in the
(37:54):
industry will lead to even better results.
And you mentioned earlier that I thoughtsuch a great point about taking your
time with building relationships.
And this is something for the long term.
It's not gonna be like right away.
A no doesn't mean no forever.
It just means not right now.
(38:15):
In a culture of like instantresults, I, if I send out an email,
I expect to get 10 jobs from it.
And if it doesn't happen, thenyou know, you get discouraged and
you don't wanna do it anymore,and that's just not how it works.
So I love that you pointed that out,that it's like you have to keep at
it, keep pushing, keep contacting,keep reaching out, and over time.
(38:42):
So, yeah, thanks for saying that.
I have no follow up question to that.
I just thought that was wonderful.
Besides communication skills, what aresome skills that photographers today
that aren't related to photographyshould be working on and developing
right now if they aren't already?
Well, I think the mostimportant thing is your mindset.
(39:04):
That ties into what we just spoke about.
The mindset needs to be long-term.
Because it's a career thatyou're trying to build.
I understand the need for jobs andfor mine, et cetera, but in the
end, it's the need to have long-termrelationships over short-term
satisfaction of the quick job here anda little bit money there, et cetera.
(39:26):
So that is sort of the overalloverarching ML that anybody who starts
out needs to keep in mind at all times.
Mindset, long-term goals, andthen the rest is a mix of things.
First, I think you should study the workof those who, whose work you like and
who shoot major campaigns right now.
(39:46):
That usually gives you pretty goodinsight of what's on the trend and then.
Yet, the next step is to work onyour own craft, which is really
important, and it also includes video.
I can't stress that enough.
Having a great portfolio and having greatreel at this point is really crucial.
And to have fun when you produce thatwork for your portfolio and really try
(40:07):
to shoot it your way to see it your way,and so that your style becomes distinct.
What I also saw being really helpful whenI started out is meeting with agents.
That's not necessarily with the goal.
Of being, going to an agent, gettingrepped, but to get honest feedback
(40:27):
and to get that feedback in anenvironment where no job is on the line.
Because once you go and meet withthat agencies and you have meetings
there, people will remember you.
And of course when you start out, youwork is not as honed and polished,
et cetera as it might need to be.
And if they see that, they might like it,but they feel like it's not there yet.
(40:51):
You will not get another meeting for atleast 3, 4, 5 years until it is where it
needs to be with those type of people.
So when you go meet with agents, youcan generally talk about where you
are in your career, where you wouldlike to go, and then they can help
you with insights and tips and howyou can get there without you feeling.
(41:13):
I'm not gonna see them again for anotherfive, six years because they don't
wanna see my work again until thenbecause they feel like I'm not ready.
So that's been really helpful andI did that quite consistently.
'Cause my goal was, at the verybeginning of my career, my goal was
to meet with at least a hundred peoplea year in person, to basically not
(41:37):
only get tips and strategies andsuch, but also to get work from it.
Because I figured.
If I meet a hundred people within theindustry all in or close to decision
making positions, then if three out ofthose hundred that I connect with really
feel like that's the right person,these three people can get me work.
(42:00):
That is significant and theirreferrals can lead to additional work.
So that's the same thing or that's thesame thing that happened when I met
with agents because obviously once Imeet with them, they can tell, okay,
this guy would be good if he wouldmeet with X, Y, and Z. 'cause they're
in the industry, they are really closeknit relationships with all people that
(42:24):
might be interested in seeing the work.
And then they can refer you and when youthen reach out to those people, you can
reach out with a strong referral saying.
Peter said, Susan said, Ishould meet with you and those
will get you meetings as well.
And then you can meet the a hundredpeople a year and not be disappointed
when you are in meeting number 75and nothing has happened yet, because
(42:48):
that just means you have 25 moremeetings left to find your three.
So then there's no discouragingor sense of discouragement, right?
Oh man.
I'm meeting number 60.
Nothing is happening.
Good.
That's also not the right person.
So I'm getting closer to the right people.
That's how, at least how I saw it.
That's obviously can be seen as agrind, but if you genuinely like meeting
(43:14):
people and interacting and showingwork and be open for tips if it's not
the right person for a project, andthat's actually an enjoyable experience.
So those are sort of my tipsfor anybody who's starting out.
And the very last thing that I can sayonce it comes to shooting, it's important
to remember that everyone who works withyou, whether it's the client, the creative
(43:38):
director, or your assistant, they'reall equally important, and the way you
interact with them is equally important.
I think the most discouraging thingfor an art director or a creative
director would be to come onto a setwhere they realize the photographer
is so nice to the creative team, butreally not cool with the collaborators
(44:03):
that he or she hired to make it happen.
Because in the end, it's a team effort.
I need excellent food stylists,excellent prop styles and set designers.
I need good assistance, so I wantthem to be obviously, conscious of the
fact, pay attention to what's going on.
Be collaborative.
I, I need great digital text onsetretouches, and I wanna communicate
(44:25):
with them in a manner that shows tothem that they're important to this
process and they have a stake in this.
Not just a payday for the dayfor coming, but they have a stake
in creating what we're doing.
And if that's done, I feel like thecreatives can see that this is a person.
That understands that sometimesit's the hierarchy is not vertical.
(44:50):
Sometimes it needs to be horizontalin a creative process and not
above somebody food stylist.
I can't do that.
I need that.
That needs to be communicated, andthat's really important to keep
in mind when you then start shoot.
Ah, I mean, you hit it on the nail.
I had my first adult job.
(45:10):
I worked at an architectoffice as an office manager.
The owner of the company, Herman, wasjust the most amazing human being.
And what I loved about working there wasjust how much he took care of everybody.
Everybody was taken care of.
And his motto, his belief was,you take care of your people,
(45:32):
they'll take care of you.
And I love that you said that.
That is so, so, so, so very important.
So I have two more questions, andthe first is for aspiring food
photographers who want to break intoadvertising and brand work, what's
the number one skill or mindset thatthey should focus on developing?
(45:56):
Yeah.
That basically was first of all,the mindset and then working on your
craft, trying to find out who shootsmajor campaigns, the work that you
liked, try to emulate, et cetera.
And the other thing that I mightnot have mentioned in that vein is
to not be afraid and ask for help.
(46:17):
Because when I started out, I thinkthat was sort of my, that's it.
It was sort of unfamiliar for meto go and ask for help, especially
when you want, when you wanna workon your portfolio and you're real.
So you have to ask, you shouldask stylists, prop stylists,
set designers, et cetera.
Would you be open tocollaborate, create a series?
(46:37):
Make storyboard, et cetera, creativedirection that they align with,
then work together with them tobrew something for your book.
And that's, I was always morefocused on what's next or what's
potentially next as in a job.
And then when I work for my portfolio,I hire people and I do this and that,
(47:01):
rather than saying, how about wecollaborate on this and you ask for help.
That's something thatI had a little bit of.
I wasn't quite sure how to goabout it and didn't feel very
comfortable because I always feltI might be indebted afterwards.
But that's something once you gainconfidence, I think as a really important
tool, because then you also buildrelationships with people that you can
(47:23):
afterwards hire when the jobs come along.
So that's an important thing to remember,to not be afraid and ask for help.
I have a follow up to that.
Who should you ask?
Should you ask people that arealready established because
they might be too busy?
Or should you ask people that are alsogetting started that are on where you
grow together in your respective careers?
(47:45):
So
who would you ask?
I would always say, let's start atthe top, because a no is a no, right?
So if somebody who is really good at whatthey're doing and they're established
that they know the process and theirexperience, they're really good.
They can elevate the work thatyou do, why not go ask them?
All they can say is no.
So if they say no, no problem, because ifyou don't ask them, it's the same outcome.
(48:10):
So you start at the top.
It's the same thing afterwards.
When you go and show work, once youfeel like you are confident enough
to go get the work, that you canalways ask people at the top, they
can say no, and then you go now.
So that's something that I would do.
In that regard, and then obviously in theend when it turns out to be also somebody
who's starting out in regards to styling,then you do that and you grow together.
(48:33):
There's nothing wrong with that,but there is also nothing wrong with
asking an established person to comeand help you out because you would be
surprised that when you have genuineinterest, curiosity, and admiration,
I mean, that needs to be genuine.
Then that comes through and a lot ofpeople are actually very open to help
(48:57):
out whether that is in advice or actualwork together to create a project.
So keep that in mind.
Don't be afraid.
Ah, yes.
I love that because theymight shock you and say yes.
I mean, yes.
I think I'd be more afraid of theyes than I'd be like, oh, okay.
Yeah, an alphabet.
Alright, let's do this.
(49:18):
Pecking up.
That
is scary so much.
Okay.
The other one is, what is excitingyou creatively these days?
I think it's just really combining stillsphotography with video to find ways
to create a more comprehensive story.
When you shoot a project, not justa secure, but just shooting stills,
(49:41):
how could you look if we are alsoshooting videos and what type of videos?
It doesn't have to be longform, and it doesn't have to
be over the top commercial.
It can be vignettes, little movingthings, little camera moves, little
my light moves, et cetera, thatevoke the feeling that you want to.
Create when people look at the still.
So in combination, it can be muchmore comprehensive and interesting,
(50:06):
and especially nowadays when peoplescroll and look at things and are
used to maybe two to four secondattention span, if you can grab them
and hold them a little longer becausesomething is moving, then even better.
So those are the elements that I'mreally looking for at the moment.
I feel like the cinemagraph is makinga comeback, and I'm so excited.
(50:27):
Yeah.
Little vignette is nice.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
Finally, so my, my final questionis where can the listeners find
you and follow you and support you
Well, on Instagram, my handleis Mueller Adrian, that's
M-U-E-L-L-E-R, Adrian, A-D-R-I-A-N.
(50:51):
Website, a muller.com.
A-M-U-E-L-L-E r.com.
If you'd like to connect,obviously LinkedIn, same thing.
Muller, Adrian, and now on your podcast.
Yes, through your podcast as well.
Those are sort of the main areas,and once you go on those sites, you
(51:14):
will see how to reach me either byemail or direct messaging, et cetera.
If anyone has a questionto ask you, he is.
Put that energy out there that you can.
Feel free to ask him any questions.
Yes, absolutely.
Happy to do so.
Adrian, thank you so muchfor being on the show.
(51:35):
This was such a great conversation.
I enjoyed all of this so very much.
It really, it's an honor to have you here,so thank you for sharing your experience
and your insights and everything.
Thank you so much Mica.
It was really a pleasure speaking withyou and enjoy the last hour and a half
and I hope the listeners will as well.
And as you mentioned, if anybody has aquestion for me, please to reach out.
(51:56):
Um, definitely open to answerwhatever you might need to know.
Yay.
Yes.
This episode is written and producedby me, your host, Mica McCook.
Like this episode, give us afive star review on Apple Podcast
and subscribe to the Savory Shotwherever you get your podcast.
(52:17):
Or follow me your host, Mica McCook,on Instagram at Mica dot McCook.
Or you can follow the podcast onInstagram at a Savory Shot podcast.
If you have any questions, comments, orwould like to be featured on the show,
email us at podcast@thesavoryshot.com.
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