066: Cooking Up Dreams with Danielle Campbell: The Real Story Behind Creative Hustle

When Passion Starts Feeling Heavy

Have you ever loved something so deeply that it began to feel like a weight? That moment when your creative spark starts flickering under the pressure to perform?

In this heartfelt episode of The Savory Shot, host Mica McCook sits down with Danielle Campbell, a Los Angeles–based chef, food stylist, and recipe developer, for an honest conversation about what it really means to live a creative life.

The Real Story Behind Creative Hustle

Danielle opens up about her journey from private chef to full-time food stylist, revealing the messy middle that rarely gets talked about. She shares how burnout, financial struggles, and being the “only one” in the room shaped her into the artist she is today. Together, Mica and Danielle explore what it means to find purpose again after exhaustion, how to set healthy boundaries, and why representation behind the camera matters.

They also dive into the challenges of freelancing, the emotional toll of underpayment, and the growing presence of AI in creative work. Yet beneath it all runs a thread of hope—a reminder that creativity still belongs to those who keep showing up with heart.

Tune In and Be Inspired

If you’ve ever wondered whether your dream is still worth chasing, this episode will meet you where you are.

Listen to “Cooking Up Dreams with Danielle Campbell” wherever you get your podcasts and be reminded that the journey to purpose is always worth taking.

Meet Danielle Campbell

In Episode 66 of The Savory Shot, Mica McCook chats with food stylist Danielle Campbell. They dive into the highs and lows of the food industry, overcoming freelance struggles, and the need for diversity. It's an honest talk filled with laughs, real stories, and empowering advice!

💬 Join the Conversation

Savory Shot Shownote: https://micamccook.com/guests/

Website: https://micamccook.com/podcast

Instagram: www.instragram.com/mica.mccook

Instagram: www.instagram.com/thesavoryshotpodcast

 

📣 Follow Danielle Campbell 

Website:https://www.danielle-campbell.com/

Instagram: @daniellecampbellfood LinkedIn: @daniellecampbell

 

Would you like to be a guest on the show? Fill out the guest form, and we'll be in touch soon.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Welcome to the 66th episode ofthe Savory Shot, the podcast where
we talk about the art and soulof working in food photography.
I'm your host with the most Mica McCook.
I'm a food photographer based in Austin,Texas, where allegedly it's fall, but

(00:23):
my thermostat says otherwise y'all.
It has been in the uppereighties, lower nineties, which
in Texas, weather is pretty cool.
That's a, a break from the ahundred plus temperatures we

(00:43):
experienced during the summer.
But y'all, I gotta say, I'm startingto get bored wearing my hoochie shorts.
I wanna wear some pants, Iwanna put some sweaters on.
I wanna have my mug of pumpkinspice latte, which is funny 'cause
I don't even like pumpkin spice.
But I, I want the scarf,I want the little cap.
I want my fall weather.

(01:05):
And we're getting none of it.
Before we jump into thisamazing episode, I have to start
with the big old thank you.
Y'all, you keep this showa-rollin and I love you for it.
To you, the loyal listeners, you arethe reason this show keeps a cooking.

(01:28):
I just wanna say how much it meansto me that y'all still show up.
And I feel like I've been aterrible host by not being
consistent in putting out episodes.
I'm doing all the interviewing, butthere's a lot that goes into putting
out this podcast and I've got help,I've got a team and it's exciting.

(01:50):
So your wish is my command.
Y'all have been messaging mefor a hot minute, asking when
is the next episode coming out.
So here you are.
And I am just really excitedthat you guys are still here.
So thank you.
And if this is your first time tuning in,welcome to the Hot Mess Express, baby.

(02:12):
I, I would say get comfortable,but yeah, get comfortable.
Yeah, go ahead, get comfortable.
Just grab a snack, find a seat.
You are in delicious company here.
Now let's talk about today's guest.
I am joined by thephenomenal Danielle Campbell.

(02:38):
Danielle is a chef, a foodand beverage stylist, and a
recipe developer from Sunny LA.
Y'all, I've been so, soexcited to drop this episode.
To put it out into the wild, ourconversation was one of those

(03:04):
conversations where we just did notgive a fuck about mincing words being
politically polite, like we really justtalked about the industry as a whole.
It was a very honest, raw conversation,and it's the kind of conversations that I
just, I live for, I live and thrive for.

(03:26):
And y'all, Danielle came in, shewas 10 toes down on business.
She kept it so real, did not hold back.
And those are the kind ofconversations I think people need
to hear in podcasts like this.
Like it can't all be marigolds and daisiesand, oh, this is, I'm now I'm on top.

(03:47):
This is success story.
Like I know that like thosekinds of episodes are meant to
like uplift and be optimistic.
But I also think that it's reallyimportant that people who are looking
to get into freelancing shouldknow the real ugly, scary truth
about what freelancing actually is.

(04:08):
And that's what Danielleand I talked about.
We talked about what it's actually like tofreelance in this crazy creative industry
and what it's like to freelance as aperson of color, as a black woman, as a
woman, but mainly as a person of color.
I'm so excited for this episode.
So without further ado,I will get right into it.

(04:30):
Grab your coffee, grab your wine.
If it's been that kind of day,grab some water, kick back,
and let's start the show.
Well, welcome to the Savory Shot,a biweekly show about the art and
soul of working in food photography.
I'm your host, Mica McCook.
Every other Wednesday I sit down tochat with professionals in the industry.

(04:55):
So that you feast on only the besttips and strategies in the business.
Alright, y'all let's get started.
Danielle, thank you so muchfor coming on the Savory Shot.

(05:16):
I'm so excited that you're hereand we've been having so many
great conversations about theindustry and our experiences in it.
So it's really great to cometogether and put this down.
So thank you so much for being on the showand for spending the afternoon with us.
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure.
Just two girls chit-chattingand hanging out.

(05:37):
Talking about the biz.
Talking about the biz.
Now, one thing I learned about youwhen I was doing research is that you
are a native, born and raised losan.
Is it a Los Angelian
Angelino?
Is that what it is?
Angeleno.
I think yes.
But I do have to admit, I wasborn in Connecticut, but I moved

(05:59):
out here when I was four, so Idon't claim it at all anymore.
So now when I write anythingabout myself, I don't even
mention that it doesn't count.
Like four years old whocan remember anything.
Four is basically a baby.
I was basically a baby.
So yes, I am from Los Angeles.
Never lived anywhere else, unfortunately,but hopefully that'll change one day soon.

(06:19):
But yes.
So in your Los Angeles, what singlequestion instantly tells you that
someone actually grew up in LA?
It's funny because when you're outsideof California, someone asks you where
you're from, you say California,and they're like, but where?
Like it doesn't matter if it's notLos Angeles or maybe the Bay Area,

(06:40):
no one cares about anything else.
So you say you're from Los Angelesand then it's yeah, but where?
Because there are many counties within LosAngeles, so, the fact that my city, most
of my life has either been Los Angelesor Culver City is I'm very proud of.
But I think it's more of a, notso much a Los Angeles thing,

(07:02):
but like West coast, East Coast.
The first thing we get into likeis a In And Out or Shake Shack,
because that tells us like how you reallyfeel about LA and which side you're on.
So I think that's reallythe closest thing.
The fact that I could say I was raisedin LA and when we moved to California

(07:23):
in Hollywood actually, and In And Out.
So hopefully that answered your question.
That's really the only thing I baseanything off It's like food preference.
Food preference.
So looking back, what opportunities,if any opportunities did growing
up in LA give you that it might'vebeen harder to find elsewhere?

(07:43):
I'm really grateful that I grewup in such a diverse environment.
Like when I think back to highschool and middle school and what
that looked like, there were noshortage of kids that looked like me.
So it's strange, I think because I grewup in such a diverse environment and

(08:03):
all my friends are just all differentcolors, were all from different places.
When I like stepped out of highschool and stepped into the real
world, like when I started workingor that's when I had a culture shock.
I'm still in LA and LA is very diverse,but when you're in that little bubble
of school and you see the same peopleevery day, also my middle school

(08:23):
and high school were connected.
So I went to middle school with allthe same people and then to high
school with all the same people.
And then when I stepped out ofthat I was like, oh, I don't know.
Also my school, I think they hadsome type of program where kids
from other neighborhoods wereallowed to come to our school.
So it just brought so many differentpeople and from all over the city.
I'm very fortunate to say that I knowthat people who grow up in places, not

(08:47):
in these big cities, I can't even imaginewhat it's like in some of the states that
would just be feel so isolating, I'm sure.
But, so that's one thing.
And the other also, my mom has worked inthe entertainment industry my entire life.
You're just not, you're so jaded.
You don't care about anything aboutcelebrities or seeing someone.

(09:08):
I remember when people would come andvisit, they'd be like, oh, this is
where they shoot this and do this.
And I was like, yeah,that's in my backyard.
I don't care about any of this.
Which also I feel has helped me withworking on set and not caring about
any of these people I'm working with.
And not in a rude way, but just like I'mable to concentrate and do my job because
I've been in this environment for so longand I'm used to what goes on behind the

(09:31):
scenes and being on a sound stage or beingon a lot and not caring about any of it.
So I think that's somethingthat is very specific to LA.
Because of our all the soundstages and you can walk down the
street and see a celebrity here.
So I think I'm just very jaded,which has helped me get through life

(09:54):
in LA and work and be professional.
Well, speaking of that world,take me back for a moment of
all the possible food careers.
What spoke to your heart and led youtowards culinary school and what inner
voice urged you to move on from it?
I think I just lovedto eat my entire life.

(10:15):
That's where it started.
And it was loving to eat andthen watching the Food Network.
I just love the FoodNetwork at night time.
When it was time to go to sleep,I wasn't, I was watching Nick At
Night, but also I was watchingEmeril and all the shows on the Food
Network and I have this memory that.
Oh, Emeril Lagasse, he did the bam, right?
Yes, but I think I liked him pre bam.

(10:37):
I, that's when he got like toocommercial and too famous and started
doing all these sound effects.
It was just like calm down.
Like I remember when youwere not so theatrical.
Just make the sauce.
Yeah, just make the food.
But I have this distinctmemory of going after school.
In middle school I had to go to thelibrary and do my homework while

(10:58):
I waited for my mom to pick me up.
And I would not do my homework.
I hated school, but I would go to thelibrarian and get back issues of Bon
Appetit and just look at them all day.
And because they had all of themfrom year, like years and years, I
would ask her for the next stack andshe would give me like 20 at a time.
And I'd look at them all, give them backto her and she'd give me the next one.

(11:19):
And I would do that.
And I think I would lookat Gourmet Magazine.
Bon Appetit was always my favorite,but, so I've always just been
obsessive looking at pictures offood and eating and of course, it
was like, oh, I should be a chef.
And I decided that really early, but thengot discouraged after listening to people
say what the chef life would be like.

(11:40):
It just didn't sound very appealing.
So then I just forgot.
Didn't forget about it, but Iwas just like, I'm gonna have
to figure something else out.
And I started working in themedical field and hated it.
And I started working in this office.
That was, the job was terrible.
It was depressing.
Everyone in the office was so mean.
I was like, what am I doing here?

(12:01):
And then I was just like, Igotta go to culinary school.
I can't, I'll figure it out.
I don't wanna work in arestaurant, but maybe if I just
go, we'll see what happens.
And so I did that and since I knew I neverwanted to work in a restaurant, I was
like, why don't you be a private chef?
That sounds fun.
You could just like work forpeople and cook in their houses
and they're like rich and they'renice and it's not how it sounds.

(12:24):
And so I did that for sevenyears, seven or eight years.
In addition to catering and little popupsand things like that, working with other
chefs, but working in people's homesis not fun for a multitude of reasons.
But it's weird for me.
I don't like being insomeone's personal space.
Yeah, I get it.
It also, it doesn't allow for anycreativity, which, and now I realize

(12:49):
is why, another reason why I feltlike I was suffocating in that space.
I'm just cooking the same thing allthe time and I have to cater to, and
of course I know this is my job, butcater to everything that they want.
I don't wanna make this, I had aclient who wouldn't let me use any
salt or olive oil on their food, andin addition to that, wanted it extra
crispy so I had to burn vegetablesand serve them to this person.

(13:11):
So I think private chefing just suckedevery bit of energy, creativity, and
love you have for cooking for people.
Just sucked it right outta me.
So, yeah, I think you askedme why I started doing it.
It sounded appealing in the beginning.
But then you start doing itand you realize it's not as
glamorous as people make it seem.

(13:33):
But it could be for some people.
I know some people who cook for privatechefs and they're on jets and they're
traveling with them and they fly themout to make them a chicken breast.
But that was nothappening in my situation.
It's like, what are you doing?
Oh I'm flying to Bali tomake a chicken sandwich.

(13:53):
Seriously.
Like crazy stuff.
Crazy stuff like that.
But they have the moneyand they don't care.
So they just like, oh yeah, Iwant my chef to come out here and
make me a smoothie in the morning.
Like crazy stuff like that.
But that was not what I was dealing with.
Yeah.
So when you found yourself in foodstyling, like the creative aspect of it

(14:16):
must have been like super refreshing andugh, this is what I've been looking for.
This is what I need.
Yes.
This is the space that can, Ican do anything in this space.
Especially because I didn'treally know about food styling.
I think we talked about it when I wasin culinary school a little bit, but
I didn't really know what that meant.
So when I discovered it, it was like, oh,I love photography too, and I love food.

(14:41):
I can combine these two, andit's the best of both worlds.
And I think that, yeah, was when Irealized I found what I really like to do.
At one point, I was taking photosas well, but it's hard to give
a hundred percent to both sides.
I like it better when I can justfocus on the food and someone
else is in charge of the camera.

(15:01):
When you're doing both, it's okay.
The lighting's fine.
I put the food in.
Then I'm like, oh, actuallythat doesn't look good.
Oh, the food's getting cold, and thenyou have to go back to the lighting.
It's not a seamless process.
At least for me, it wasn't.
I've done it and it's worked out andI've done some really cool things
where I've had to do both, and thework has been great, but I prefer.
To not do that.

(15:22):
Also, I was a self-taught photographer,so I just feel like my skillset with
lighting and stuff isn't where Iwould want it to be, where I feel
confident enough to continue to do that.
Of course, I could learn and practice,but I don't really have any desire
to do that because there's so manyamazing photographers out there.
Also, it's hard to say no to work,but these days everyone tries

(15:45):
to get everything for less, andI'm doing two people's jobs when
I should really be doing one.
You should be paying for someonewho's an expert in that field to work
with me, so you can get the best ofboth sides and we can come together.
That's another reason I try notto do, they're like, Danielle,
you're a food stylist.
Can you also do props?
No.
Or can you also do this?

(16:06):
If you're paying me for two people'srates, sure we can talk about it,
but that rarely ever happens, andit's taking jobs from other people
who could be hired for that project.
I'm not saying don't do those thingsbecause we all need to make money, but
it's at what point are we gonna teachthese people that they can't be so cheap?
So we looked at those Bon Appetitmagazines and you saw all of

(16:29):
those beautiful food images.
Did, at any point, did youwonder who put this together
or who is the team behind this?
Or how did this all come together?
No, which is crazy because maybeif I had known at, in the seventh
grade when I graduated from highschool, I would've been able to
say, I want to be a food stylist.

(16:50):
And now I have wasted so much timewasting my life in a optometrist office.
But that was clearly not mypath and I should accept that.
But no, I didn't know.
But they didn't talk about it.
Now I think now the past, like maybewith the rise of Hands and Pans
videos and like Buzzfeed and TasteMade of 10 years ago, I think now

(17:12):
people are like, Oh someone does that.
No one really talked about it.
So yeah, I think that's why it's alsohard or it used to be really hard
to like break into the industry too.
'cause it's like who do you talk to?
Yes.
Yeah.
So I didn't know and I wish I had known.
Absolutely.
So my background is I starteddoing family photography, which is

(17:35):
weddings and families are probablythe easiest industry to get into.
Someone with kids, you got a client,a couple, there's your client and you
can build your business from there.
So my family photography business pickedup pretty quickly and I was encouraged
by a teacher to pursue food photography.

(17:55):
But then I realized that there'stwo different worlds of food
photography and there's the foodblogging world and the brand photos
that small CPG, whatever will.
Hire you to like create product photos forthem and that's like the I fluency world.
And then there's the commercial worldwhere the big campaigns are, and I
just had no idea like who to talk to,who to reach out to who, like what

(18:20):
is step one, all of those things.
I couldn't find a single websitethat said this is who you talk to.
So I can see like on the photographerend, but like for a food stylist, like
who do you talk to, who do you reachout to and how long do you apprentice?
How long do you know until you're ready?
The more interviews I do, themore I realize that food stylist,

(18:44):
I didn't know was a thing.
And then someone said, Hey,you are a chef, you are a
cook, or you are really good.
Can you come in and style this?
And then they're like, here I am.
I'm a stylist now.
Was that the case for you?
How did you find yourselfin your first role?
I started taking pictures andmaking food for myself on like.

(19:06):
Instagram.
And then I found a job listing for a foodstylist at Taste Made, and based on my
portfolio of photos that I had just takenfor myself and made my own website with,
they were like, oh, you'd be great to dovideos, Hands and Pans talk on videos.
And that's how I got into Taste Made.
It was like a job listing onCraigslist or something random

(19:28):
like that in 2017 or 2016.
And that's how I started doing it.
And then I was reaching out to a bunchof stylists, or when I would ask other
stylists how they got into the industry,it was like, oh, you have to assist first.
You've gotta assist.
You can't get a job without assisting.
I was like, okay.
So I would email stylists in Los Angeles,I'm a trying to get into food styling.

(19:52):
I would love to learn from you,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Never ever got responses from anyone ever.
So I was like, how am I supposed tobreak into this industry and assist
people if no one's letting me help them?
So I started taking more pictures myselfand then eventually was able to get
jobs because I built my own portfolioat this point, because you're not

(20:13):
gonna get hired for food styling ifyou don't have any work to show for it.
I can tell you I can cook and I went toculinary school, but it's very different
from being able to make food look goodfor camera out of necessity and boredom.
Creating this portfolio for myselfallowed me to get jobs without
having actually worked on setsbefore except for Tastemade.

(20:34):
And shortly after that I worked fora few other food media companies that
were doing the same sort of thing,videos for Instagram and Facebook.
Then had some work at like the FoodNetwork and some other things, and
at the same time found other jobswhere they wanted a photographer
and a food stylist in one package.

(20:54):
So I was doing those recipe photos,recipe developing, making the food,
and photographing it for these brands.
I would charge them like per recipe, andI did a lot of those so that I had brands
on my website now and more photos, and Istarted doing that for a few companies.

(21:14):
Did this for a while still at Taste Madeand Buzzfeed and all these other places.
Then the pandemic happened andwe all know when that happened.
And so prior to the pandemic and whenI first started food styling, I was
doing food styling while still privatechefing, so food styling was not my
full-time job because I didn't haveenough of it to leave private chefing.

(21:36):
The pandemic happened and then privatechefing stopped because everybody
thought they were gonna die and noone wanted anyone touching their food.
And then it turned into brands askingwhat can we do where people can shoot it
at home because people can't be together?
Then that picked up.
Then I got into working with food networkchefs who during the pandemic couldn't

(21:59):
go to a studio and cook food on live tv.
So they had to cook itfrom their own homes.
So I would make all the swaps and thefood deliver it to these chef's houses,
and then the Today Show or whateverwould do a Zoom call with the chef and
they would be like, this is what I madefor you today, but really I made it.
So that's another like space I waspushed into because of the pandemic

(22:23):
and just doing things from home, andthen that led to other things, and
then it just spiraled from there.
I got a kind of weird start.
I've only assisted as a foodstylist maybe three times.
With that being said, are there anylessons that you feel like you would've

(22:44):
learned quicker through a mentoror that you learned the hard way?
Yeah, just how to style certain things.
I, of course, I would watch likea YouTube video or do as much
research as I could beforehandbecause I didn't have anyone to ask.
I can't think of anythingspecific, but definitely just how
to style certain things on set.

(23:06):
I definitely do things alittle differently now than
I did in 2020 when I started.
I will garnish a drink differentlyor I will not cook something all the
way, or I just, coming from a culinarybackground without any food styling,
I had to do it the culinary way.
Now I can redo it the opposite way, whereI can make it look like a professional

(23:28):
cooked it, but I don't really haveto really cook it, or I don't really
have to put this on it or don't cookit as long because it'll die faster.
So I think I would've gottenthere faster if I had worked
with a food stylist before.
I was just this chef of showing up on setwho knew how to make food look pretty.
And back to what you were sayingabout no one responding, I think

(23:48):
people are threatened by someonelike asking them questions and
trying to break into the industry.
They feel like it's their competition,like, why am I gonna show you how
to do my job so you can take my job?
Also something I never, and I don'tknow if this is the right way to look
at it, but the few times that I didassist, no one paid attention to me.
The focus is on the lead stylist.

(24:10):
So the notion of if you assist, you'llget jobs and they'll come to you.
That's not really true because at theend of the day, it's that director
or that photographer loved the work.
They're not gonna be like,Hey, your assistant was great.
Can I have her number?
She did such a great job.
The focus is on the lead.
No matter how much the assistantis doing, it's always the lead.
It's so going into it, I waslike, yeah, you're telling me

(24:32):
to assist, I'm gonna get work.
They're not gonna call me.
They're gonna call you back.
Yeah.
So that was so weird to me.
Yeah, because your role is to lift upthe lead stylist's role and support them.
And support.
Yeah.
Which is an amazing thing.
I'm just saying that tellingpeople that has to be their journey

(24:53):
and that's the only way to foodstyling, I think is not true.
I am 100% on board with you when yousay that, because I have been told by
various commercial photographers whosay, well, it's a rite of passage and
it's, people get into this industryin many different phases of life.

(25:14):
Not every single photographer starts outas a young 20 something or 19-year-old.
Some of them get in this industrymidlife, and they just do not
have the luxury to assist you.
They need to hit the ground running.
Or maybe they go to school and they earntheir stripes that way there is more than

(25:36):
one way to earn a stripe, and it's on themto get that education outside of school.
I wanna take it to our discussion frombefore about the struggle of being a
black creative in a mostly white space.
Food photographer.
I think I've met.
Two other black food photographers?

(25:59):
No.
3, 3, 3. I've met three othersand I think that needs to change.
I do not like that at all.
And you shared that nine timesout of 10 when you walk on a set,
you're the only black person onset, and that the first time you
walked onto an all black productionthat it felt amazing and wonderful.

(26:20):
So what goes through your mind inmoments that contrast from that
when you walk into a space and youare the only black person there?
Those are so often I'm notexpecting anything else.
So when I do walk on these sets whereit's predominantly black or just people
of color in general, it is so surprisingand almost takes your breath away.

(26:42):
It's amazing.
But it's also like, where are allthese people on a daily basis?
This isn't their only job.
So where are these people workingevery day and why do I only see
them when it's a black production?
It's like they just materialize outof thin air and then after the shoot
they just poof and they just disappear.
And that's it.
It's so strange.
I don't even know how toexpress how that feels.

(27:03):
And it's, you just feel morecomfortable naturally when you're
surrounded by people who look like you.
And all these shoots that I've done thatwere these types of sets, everything
just came together so beautifully.
And I'm just like, why aren't we?
Why isn't this a regular thing?
Yeah.
Why isn't this happening more?
And it grinds my gears whenJuneteenth comes around and it's

(27:27):
like hot or like history month hot.
And I'm like, what about July?
What about May?
Like I have all these other months.
That would be wonderful tobe considered for projects.
Yes, it would be great to be workwith other black people on set,
but I'm talking like anybody else.
Can there just be a personof color around at all?

(27:50):
And most times the answer is no.
I just don't understand.
It's so confusing.
How do you not have someone on yourroster that is not a white male or female?
I'm just so confused.
And we're in Los Angeles.
This isn't, it's not hard to find,and I know it exists because I did

(28:11):
arrive on that set of about 400 people.
I had one shoot thatwas a huge production.
They like shut down the row downtown.
So it was enormous.
Sorry, you don't know what that is.
You don't live here.
It's a huge space downtown.
And it was for, the talentwas an A-list black male
celebrity for a, for Chase Bank.

(28:33):
So the budget and thescale of this was enormous.
And the people cooking craftservices were people of color,
the makeup, the hair department,the PAs, like the security guards.
It was amazing.
So.
I don't know where these peoplego after the shoot is over.
I really think it's just, maybe I'mjust imagining it all and they all
just disappear after the shoot isover because I never see them again.

(28:57):
And I think that the initiative thatpeople were taking in 2020 and 2021 to
make sure that they were diversifyingtheir sets has gone out the window.
No one cares about it anymore.
It's like it never even happened.
Oh no.
2020, 2021. Those were my busiest years.
Yep.
Busiest I've ever been.
And they were like, tag a blackcreator or tag a black photographer

(29:22):
and then it just, it's frustrating.
It's frustrating.
But also at that time, it was greatto be everywhere, but also I knew
you were just trying to fill abox, so it also made me feel gross.
Also, remember when I told you Ididn't get responses from anyone
when I asked to assist them?
Do you know how many people atthat time responded to emails?

(29:43):
I sent them two years prior.
What?
Oh hey.
Hey.
You sent me an email askingif you could assist me.
Are you still interested?
There was so many points duringthose two years where I was super
busy and getting recognized, but itwas for all of the wrong reasons.
So it was very hard.

(30:03):
Very performative.
Yeah, and it was like, Ishould be grateful I'm working.
When some people were like, itdoesn't matter how you get the
work as long as you get the work.
I'm like, yeah, but they're all,literally, they're only hiring me because
I'm black now and not because I don'teven, I, of course I had the skills,
but I don't even know if it was reallyabout that for some of these jobs.

(30:24):
I was just like checking off a box.
No, it was, I definitely feel like it.
It was more about, look athow colorful we are over here.
Our set is, yeah.
Look how diverse it is.
And it's not all of them.
Like I do feel like there are someCreative Directors out there who
are really championing, keeping setsas diverse as possible, and they're

(30:48):
purposely seeking out creators ofcolor no matter what the project is.
They really are trying to like do theirpart and put people on the map and for
them, I'm grateful for, I would justlove to see more faces and I know that
whenever I put my teams together, ofcourse Austin is pretty limited on who's

(31:09):
available, but I do intentionally seekout female whether you are cisgender
and you identify, I seek that outpersons of color, like anyone that.
I just, I wanna be able to provideopportunities as they come to me
because it's just passing the torch.

(31:30):
If I can, I will.
It's really important to me as far asa freelancer, to create opportunities
for black creators because we need more,we are so imaginative and talented, so
our ideas should be pushed out there.
So shout out to Apostrophe Reps fordoing their part and their wonderful
program, their mentorship for pushing POCartists with their Amplify mentorship.

(31:57):
Well, that's the reason why Iunintentionally I was, I subconsciously,
I'm sure that is why I make sure.
My assistant with me is a personof color the same, the comfort
and relatability and all of that.
Because I know that if I bringsomeone else with me, at least
there'll be two of us on set.

(32:18):
Yeah.
And when I'm feel like I'm beingtreated a certain way or there's a
weird vibe on set, I can run that bythe person I'm with and they can relate.
And you know where I'm going with that?
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
'cause we'll be the, some folkstry to gaslight us and tell us,
oh, well that microaggression thatyou thought was a microaggression

(32:40):
wasn't really a microaggressionand you're just taking it as one.
And I think I know when someoneis talking to me a certain way.
Yeah.
So I think that'sdefinitely really important.
And one thing you were mentioning earlierabout creative directors and working
with and trying to bring people in.
I think it's important though, for theselarge brands, there have been a few

(33:00):
black-owned brands that I've worked for.
I was so excited to get on set because Iwas like, oh, this is gonna be where it's
different, and I get on set and everyonebehind the scenes is white and it's,
you're putting your name on this company.
There should definitely be someof your people behind the scenes.
So that's been a weird space to arriveand I'm so excited to get there and I
arrive and I'm still the only black personon set, and I'm just like, oh, okay.

(33:23):
This person, this celebrity thathas their name on this brand
has no idea or doesn't even carewhat's going on behind the scenes.
Then the flip side of that, workingfor a shoot I did recently for a black
creator in this business, everyonebehind the scenes was black, and this
person has publicly said and mentionedmany times that she wants to make

(33:45):
sure that she is bringing her peoplein behind the scenes, in front of
the camera, outside of the camera,everywhere, the production, everything.
So that was noticed and veryobvious and amazing, but.
A problem I ran into with a big brand.
I did a Black History month shoot withthis brand who will remain unnamed.
And they specifically called me andsaid they were looking for a black food

(34:09):
stylist for a Black History month shoot.
And they were like, everyoneon set is going to be a person
of color, the photographer,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, okay, great.
Then they send me the deck for this shoot.
And one of the things they wantme to make for the shoot on Black
History Month is watermelon water.
And I look at the deck andI'm like, are you kidding me?

(34:29):
Are you actually kidding me?
And I called the woman and Iwas like, I'll take this job,
but I'm uncomfortable with this.
Whose idea was this?
How did it get so far that it's in adeck and that we're about to put this
into production and no one caught this.
It's because everyone behindthe scenes, they don't have
anyone to check this stuff.

(34:50):
You put black people with a camera intheir hand and but what about all the
development that comes in before that?
And she was like.
You're right.
You're not the firstperson to bring this up.
We're gonna bring this back to them andwe're going back to the drawing board,
and they ended up cutting it, thank God.
But what if I had, first of all,been too scared to say anything?
Yeah.

(35:10):
So that's just a prime example of, yeah,you can just throw us on set and make
a black commercial, but who is makingsure that we are taken care of and
we're in a safe space behind the scenes?
It's a good thing you did speakup, because what if that had, let's
say it would've been published,we'd have been so pissed.
Well, the way this company's thingsaren't looking good for them at

(35:31):
all right now anyway, by the way,this content never aired because
for a multitude of other reasons.
So this commercial that I didnever even saw the light of day.
They did take out the watermelon water,but it didn't happen because I think they
may have been, they're getting canceled.
But anyway, they would've known.
They would've learned.
Yeah, it's just it.

(35:51):
Why does it take me sayingsomething, even if there was.
No one behind the scenes that was aperson of color that's pretty obvious
and blatantly racist in my opinion.
I always say what a privilege itis to just show up and not worry.
Have to worry about who's gonnabe on set and if whether or not
you're gonna be alone in this.

(36:12):
And I feel like that'staken for granted sometimes.
So I went to South bySouthwest this past year.
They had Black Creators MeetUp and the room was full.
I think they're gonna have to have abigger room next year, but it just,
I wish that they would've sent outthe contact information for everybody
because there were so many creators.

(36:35):
Not just creators, but people in allkinds of different positions that
all of us should have known eachother and have some kind of way of
contacting each other afterwards.
And it just, it makes me feel even moredetermined to like think, well, what can
I do here in Austin to have a communityof creators because I only know of

(36:59):
one other black food photographer herein Austin and she is wicked talented.
And I didn't even know about her until Imet her at another black networking event.
And it's like, why don't I know you?
Why don't I know about you?
Your work is fucking amazing.
So it's, I want moregroups like that locally.
So are there locally for you, any groupsor informal groups or networks that

(37:26):
have helped you feel less isolated?
Nothing that I've found, but a group ofwomen in the food industry that we've
all worked together and know each other.
At one point started like the blackwoman in food, like group chat and
we would send each other jobs andtext each other and things like that.
But that was something that wasdone within our little group.

(37:47):
It wasn't.
It's something that we found and joined.
I need to be better aboutlooking for things like that.
There are also, it would be helpful, I hada friend of mine who was coming out with
a cookbook a few years ago and she askedme to send her black food photographers in
Los Angeles and I couldn't send her one.
I didn't have one to send her.
Specifically, black foodphotographers, didn't have one.

(38:10):
And I sent her otherpeople in other states.
I don't think there are thatmany of us, to be quite honest.
They're not.
They're not.
Like I said, I've met three othersand that's on a national scale
and that's in all the years.
There's plenty.
of White photographers out there andfemale, white female photographers,
but I've met three and two ofthem are female and one is a man.

(38:34):
That's not okay.
There should be more of us.
Yeah, and they're out there.
There have to be, so Ineed to find a space where.
There has to be likethere's an Instagram page.
I follow black women and foodand some other ones, but there
needs to be like a network.
I'm sure there is.

(38:55):
We just haven't found it yet.
Where,
Yes.
It's like all of the black creatives ina category and you can click on stylists
and then it's all the ones and they'rejust like organized by state and there
has to be something like that out there.
Well, if there's not, I'm starting it.
Yeah, because thatwould be really helpful.

(39:16):
Because what's the saying, ifyou build it, they will come.
If you can't find it, thenmaybe that's your calling to
build it and to spearhead it.
I wanna move it to the, we talkeda little about this before about
how much, freelancers, like put incapital for jobs and then getting

(39:41):
reimbursed for it 5,000 bazillion yearslater, and how frustrating that is.
And I now, I wasn't preparedfor that when I started out.
There are a lot of costs thatI had to absorb and go find the
money for and then get reimbursed.
And you mentioned that's somethingthat as a stylist that you deal with
like advancing hundreds of dollarsin groceries, props, and then you

(40:04):
have to wait for reimbursement.
What's one system or boundary that youuse to protect your cash flow these days?
Protect my cash flow.
Oh God.
So the fact that these brands have so muchmoney and I didn't know about advances
from the brand until I got an agent.

(40:26):
I didn't even know I could ask for that.
So I spent years, coming out of pocket andthen would be reimbursed after the job.
And you would think that thereimbursement would happen immediately.
The reimbursement comes when youget your paycheck, which is crazy
to me that freelancers are on a net30, sometimes net 60, sometimes net
90 with the new California statelaw or whatever was put in place.

(40:51):
Now freelancers have tobe paid within 30 days.
However, the caveat is if you'reworking for a company that is outside
of Los Angeles and you're freelancingfor them, they have their own rules.
Because I am working for acompany right now and I was
so ready to hit them with it.
You're breaking the law.
And they were like, weare based in Alabama.
We've got a net 90.
And I was just like, oh my God.

(41:12):
So when you are doing a job for abrand, you will get a list of things
you have to buy, whether you'rea prop stylist or a food stylist.
Sometimes photographers, you have to getseamless, and I'm sure you have so much
stuff you have to get and seamless areso expensive and all that other stuff.
But for me, I have toget food and ingredients.
To bring, to set, to cookand to execute these photos.

(41:35):
And sometimes it could be a hugeshoot where I'm spending $800 on food.
Sometimes I'm only spendinga hundred dollars on food.
Sometimes the client sources theirproduct so I don't have to buy it.
They're a lot of different scenarios.
But yes, that money comes out of yourown pocket and most times you don't
get it back until 30 days later.

(41:57):
So let's say you are just starting outas a food stylist and you don't have
money in your bank account, extra moneyto front 400, 500, $600 for a shoot.
Where do you get that?
It's, I'm working to get money, but Ihave to pay to be a part of this shoot.
Sometimes I ask for advances.
Sometimes they say no.

(42:18):
Sometimes they will Zelle mepetty cash, which is great.
Now if I, as I anticipate a job beingreally expensive, I will ask for in
advance now that I know how that works,having worked with an agent, if they say
no there's another option of sometimesasking for a company credit card.
If they're a company.
Sometimes they will buy thegroceries, but then you don't

(42:40):
have, you don't pick it out.
And as a food stylist, that'svery important to be able to
pick out your own ingredients.
So one thing that I've done, whichis a very slippery slope, but it has
benefited me in some ways, is I wantedto build my credit a few years ago.
So I got a few credit cards that Iwould get five times points in cash

(43:02):
back for eating out in grocery stores.
And those two things are things that I do.
I'm at the grocery storeprobably four times a week.
That's for myself and for work.
And now it's so.
i'm so used to grocery shopping.
For myself in such a, oh, let me goget a steak and vegetables for dinner.
I don't shop for the week.

(43:22):
I can.
I feel like I can't even do that anymore.
I'm at the grocery store so often now.
It's not a chore for me anymoreif I'm in my personal life.
If I want something for dinner, I'll goout, get something, make it that night,
get the food, so it's not a hassle.
But anyway, so I have credit cards whereI will buy all the shopping for the shoot

(43:43):
on that card, get a bunch of points.
Also, it's not coming directlyout of my bank account.
And the idea is when you get paid in30 days to put that money directly
from the lump sum of money you got backin your paycheck and put it towards
the balance on your credit card.
And when you are on time with that andwhen you are consistent, it's great.

(44:04):
It works out great.
Your money's not comingout from your bank account.
You're getting points,you're building your credit.
It's great.
The slippery slope with that, Iwas discussing this with a friend
recently, is you get this paycheck.
The total amount just seems likesuch a big amount that you were
like, yeah, I got so much money.
And you like keep it and you don't put ittowards your credit card and you're like,

(44:25):
oh shit, that's not just like extra money.
So you just have to be careful becauseyou'll see that this direct deposit
and you're like, Ooh, I have money.
And I'm like, well, about $800 ofthat, I need to put right back.
So you just have to be on top of it.
And if you are good about that,I think that's a good route
to take for those reasons.

(44:45):
Building your credit, getting points.
I was able to fund an entire round tripand hotel, stay to London on points from
my credit card with grocery store points.
And then I have another card that I get.
Like Amazon Whole Foods card.
So then I'm at Whole Foodsshopping all the time, so then
I get like free Amazon money.

(45:06):
So you just gotta make itwork for your advantage.
I think that's really the only tip.
I'm not telling anybody to get acredit card, I'm just saying that's
what works for me when I'm being good.
One other little story there, I wentto a networking event for stylists in
the industry and she asked a questionto the crowd and she said, so if you're

(45:29):
a stylist and you are over a thousanddollars in debt, raise your hand.
And a couple people raise their hands.
Then she was like, if you're morethan $5,000 in debt, she asked if you
were more than $10,000 in debt dueto your profession, raise your hand.
And multiple people raise their hands.
And one person was like, I'm astylist, an interior stylist.

(45:51):
I had to buy a couch theother day for a brand.
What this person's like proppingout houses for photo shoots.
So imagine how much I'm complainingabout some food I have to buy.
There are people who have to furnish homeswith their credit cards and with their
Holy shit.

(46:11):
Yeah, with their ownmoney, which is bananas.
To think that like thathuge company couldn't front
couldn't give you in advance.
So that's something that I wish I knewahead of time coming into this business.
Definitely.
Oh, for sure.
So three questions that you askevery producer or higher up,

(46:31):
whoever makes the hiring decisions.
What questions do you askbefore accepting a job and why?
And what are some red flagsthat make you go uh-uh?
Well, the first question is what's therate and what the assistant rate is.
Sometimes a lot of people don'taccount for the assistant, so then

(46:52):
I will tell them what my assistantrate is or their rate usually is,
or how much I hope to get for them.
And then they're like,oh, we can't do that.
So then sometimes thathas to be brought down.
Unfortunately, the location isvery important if you're cooking.
I have been asked to do shoots.
I'm like, where are we shooting?
We're like, oh, we'reshooting at this place.

(47:13):
You need to do a full Thanksgivingspread, but we are only at the microwave.
A what?
That's a direct quote.
That is actually something that happened.
So that is very important to me.
So after rate, the second questionis, do I have a full kitchen?
Where are we cooking?
What's going on?
Because the, a lot of producersdon't really know about food.
So the fact that this producer thoughtthat I could do a full Thanksgiving swag

(47:36):
with only a microwave, just shows youhow little this person knows about food.
So you have to ask those questionsbecause you cannot assume that they
are taking care of those things
Or they have a hot plate.
Really cool.
One hot plate.
So that's my second.
My third question is usually,is there a prop stylist?
Because it's often assumed, oh,you're the food, you're doing food.

(47:59):
So you get all the plates and you'regonna get all the cups and all
the stuff that's gonna be on set.
Is that what you're doing?
No.
That's not how that works.
So those are my top three.
Those are very important.
And set the tone.
And to answer your question, what is likea no usually is can you do props too?
If it's a really heavy foodshoot, I'm not doing props too.

(48:22):
I can't, I have too muchstuff to worry about.
Also, pay someone their job to do props.
Yeah.
Someone who likes propsand that's like their jam.
And knows that's theirjob, their specialty.
It's like you're not gonna geta podiatrist to work on eyes.

(48:42):
You could, but you could, but you should.
You probably have an eyeinfection a after that,
but, so nine times out of 10, if I'm askedto do props as well, the answer is no.
If it's something as simple as couldyou pick up a glass that you like or

(49:02):
whatever, I might be nice and do it.
If it's not a full on, if it's nota full on other job for another
person that you're taking away, ifI am picking up a few items from
the store, fine, I'll do that.
But anything more than a few items,you need to hire someone else who's
job is to be doing that thing.
Yeah, so that's, I thinkthose are my three.

(49:24):
Those are solid three.
I wanna close out today's interview totalk about something that we both feel
passionately, pretty passionate about.
I saw a post on LinkedIn thatoof it really, pissed me off.
It was this, I don't know what she was orwhat she did, but she posted these images

(49:46):
of this AI like product and she's, oh, Icreated this in, I don't even know what
software she used, but I created this inAI and this is how much money I saved.
And she said, don't even botherwith hiring a photographer.
Don't even bother with this and this.
And if you want my guidebook,press product or type in
product in the comment section.
And I thought that when I clicked onall the comments, 'cause it had a shit

(50:09):
ton of comments and I thought, man,there's gonna be a bunch of people just
pissed off and I can't wait for it.
But it was all just product.
And I felt mad about thispost for two reasons.
One, I felt like she just completelydevalued what photographers do
and just put, equated it to just aprompt, oh, I can do what you do.

(50:32):
Here's a prompt.
And I also felt like our skills were beingerased and it was just disrespectful.
It wasn't necessary and itequated it down to money.
And it's just, look, we're notout here trying to be fucking
Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk.
We're not trying to screw you outta money.
Like we just wanna be able tomake a living as a creative
and this is how much it costs.

(50:52):
And, but it rubbed me the wrong wayand it pissed me off that a lot of
people were just commenting productand I wanted to like curse every
single person who commented product.
So my question is, how do you feel aboutAI encroaching on creative jobs and where
do you think it could take food stylingif it would actually impact food styling?

(51:16):
It's definitely goingto impact food styling.
I've seen it happen before my eyes.
I was on a shoot last week andthey did the whole deck in AI.
So they were showing me these imagesand we're like, we did these in AI.
We love them.
Can you recreate these practically.
And immediately it waslike, yeah, I'm gonna try.
But that clearly islike something floating.
It's not real obviously.

(51:38):
So this may be a little difficult.
We get to the shoot, the client hasn'tarrived yet, but I'm with the creative
director and the photographer andwe spent about an hour and a half
trying to get this food item on afork the perfect way, just on a fork.
It was taking forever, andhe's, I don't like that.
It doesn't look like the picture.
And I'm like, it's not gonna look like thepicture, because that is not a real thing.

(52:01):
Then we finally get to a placewhere we like what I've put on
the fork and we start shooting it.
The client arrived a little late,they get to set, we have a bunch
of things on the screen and theclient was like, oh, I love that.
And the guy goes, that's the AI image.
And he was like, oh, let's just buy that.
I just wanna buy that image instead.
While we're all doing the best we canand we've all been working for hours.

(52:21):
And they did.
The client was so nice, theydidn't know, and I don't think
they know how these shoots work.
It was their first time shooting product.
They just came in and said this andit was such a, well, there you go.
That's how our jobs are gonna be taken.
We're spending an hour tryingto get this perfect image.
The AI image you typed into thecomputer printed out, or I don't

(52:42):
know, not printed, that's not theright term, was made in two seconds.
You didn't even haveto pay anyone to do it.
And he thinks it's perfect.
And it was just so heartbreaking.
It was really sad.
So, and that's not the first shootwhere I've been given a deck.
There was another one where thisbowl of cereal was exploding towards
camera and milk and pieces of cerealwere floating through the air.

(53:06):
And I were like talking on the callabout how to like recreate that.
And I was like, I'm not an engineer, Idon't know how we're gonna create that.
And we spent hours trying tolike rig these bowls of cereal
and blow in them and spa.
It was just like.
So much time wasted trying torecreate these images that honestly
you could get right away with AI.
So I'm terrified because I'veseen it happen in front of me.

(53:30):
Also, I've seen it be helpful on set.
I've been on set where it'sa thing in LA or anywhere.
Now these days you can't findwatermelons with seeds in them.
So my friend was able to type inwatermelon seed and in my seed,
this watermelon, all of a suddenit had beautiful black seeds
in them and that was helpful.
But it's only gonna get better.

(53:51):
And I know for legal reasons, theycan't use AI images yet for product, but
it's a matter of time before they can.
And then me taking an hour tryingto get something the perfect
way on a fork, they're not gonnabe waiting around for that.
So I don't know what to sayabout AI except for, it's scary.

(54:13):
Someone just emailedme today and was like.
Talking about AI and how he'slosing work as a photographer to it.
So I don't know.
I don't wanna sound likepessimistic, but it's scary.
No, and I've used AI in my storyboards.
Like I actually, I draw my shot, my shotsout, and I'll go into Midjourney and I'll

(54:34):
say exactly what I want photography wise.
But in the prompt I saydrawing, not picture.
Because the last thing I exactlywhat happened, that's the
last thing I want to happen.
Where a client will look at thisAI image and they'll be like,
oh, well let's just use that.
So I make sure that it's adrawing and that the client
knows that this is a drawing.

(54:56):
This is what I'm envisioning in my mind.
So don't get married to this 'causeit's a drawing we are going to
recreate just for composition.
You get to see what I'mthinking lighting wise.
You can't just pluck this pictureout and then put it there.
Like there's gonna be a lawsuit.
At some point, because some restaurants,some brand is gonna use an AI image,

(55:19):
and it's just, right now there areno laws, there are no boundaries.
So nobody really knows what'sokay and what's not okay.
And I think it's gonna take somecourt cases for it to happen.
Well, I'm hoping with that, becausenow for Mense, let's say you were doing
a McDonald's commercial, all of thefood that you're using to advertise
that McDonald's has to be theirfood, and that's for legal reasons.
So I'm hoping that for the same reason,you will not be allowed to do AI food

(55:44):
because it's a false advertisement.
That's not what you're getting.
Yeah.
Granted, your McDonald's willnever look like how it does when
you get it at the drive-thru.
That's a whole another versionof lying about something.
I just, I do not see how it wouldbe possible to use a completely AI
generated image of a food photo.

(56:08):
It still be legally okay.
But I have seen restaurants on theirInstagrams using AI images, and I'm
like, that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Like it will be interesting to seewhen it comes because it will come.
How do you see the industrychanging in the next few years
with AI being what it is?
I don't know.

(56:28):
I guess it depends onif laws change or not.
I think it's a great, helpful tool,but when it's doing a better job
than what we can do practically,then that's when we're in trouble.
Which I don't think we're that faroff from that because I've seen it.
The image, the AI images that they didfor this shoe, they were beautiful.

(56:51):
I could see I, they were,because they were perfect.
They were perfect.
Things were a little odd, butlike those things could be fixed.
So if I was a client who didn't knowanything about anything, didn't know
how a shoot worked, I just wanteda beautiful picture of this thing.
Aside from the fact that it'sfalse advertisement, 'cause
it's not the real thing.
Why wouldn't you want the perfect image?

(57:12):
So I can see how things are gonna bea little, everyone that I've spoken to
that's a photographer is you just gottabe optimistic and we have to learn with
it and learn how to use it in photography.
And as a stylist, I don't really knowwhere I can come into that because my
whole job will be taken away from me.
And I think if I'm shooting food withpeople, that's when you're probably
safer because people right now, we stillwant real people in these photos and

(57:37):
videos and interacting and I don't thinkwe're gonna be able to have an actress
or a model interacting with a burgervia AI if it were just like a photo.
So because of that, I think, yes,I'll still have a job because they
still wanna see people eating foodon set and in movies and on tv.
But eventually when they wantrobots for all that stuff is

(57:58):
when I'm gonna be really scared.
But this is all, I don't know.
We need to try to be asoptimistic as possible.
I think we all do, but I thinkwe all need, also need to be
realistic and ready for the change.
I try to be more optimistic.
I've been told I need to bemore optimistic, so I'm trying
not to just doom and gloom.

(58:20):
Everything sucks.
We're screwed,
but I'm more leaning towardsthat side than the optimism.
But I just say that soI don't sound negative.
Yeah, I get it.
What's the alternative?
Just, yeah, feeling sad and, oh, thismakes me not wanna create, and I get it.

(58:41):
I get it.
So let's end this even more optimistic.
What's exciting you right now?
I was gonna say, that's a good segueinto the mental health conversation by
Well, yeah.
Let's touch on that.
Do you have outside hobbies,routine therapy, digital detox,
anything that acts as a reset buttonto protect your mental health.

(59:03):
Especially when you thinkabout heavy topics like this.
I think as a freelancer in our industry,that topic isn't weighing on me so
much that at the moment, of course Ithink about it, I'm worried, but that's
something that's out of my control.
I don't have any, there'snothing we can do about it.
So I try not to focus on that.
Being a freelancer in this industry,the up and down of work is more what

(59:26):
gets to me and not being busy andfeeling like if I don't work, I don't
make money and therefore I'm, it'sjust a constant back and forth and up
and down when you are a freelancer.
So as someone who likes to work,someone who likes to be creative all
the time and be doing something, it'shard for me when I'm not working.

(59:46):
And I realized that when I went frombeing really busy a few years ago to all
of a sudden work, the workflow changingand I was like, oh, I'm going crazy.
So.
I think it's important to findlife outside of work that makes
you happy, especially if you're acreative, something that still allows
you to be creative and productive.
That's not your job.

(01:00:08):
For me, it's like doing ceramicsor this is still my job, but like
doing test shoots with friends.
That's a great way to, I'm stilldoing the thing that I love.
Granted, we're not getting paid forit, but at least we can do what we want
and we can be creative in that space.
But going somewhere to do an activity,back to ceramics, for me, it's like I'm

(01:00:28):
able to go to a studio, take a class, ordo something, sit there, make something.
It keeps your mind off of worryingand it exercises those muscles that
are dormant when you're not working.
So yeah, I think also learning how tomanage the stress you may feel during

(01:00:50):
the up and down is very important.
Not falling until this suckswork's never gonna pick up.
Is it just me or other people not working?
Does my work suck?
I rarely fall into that hole, but Icould definitely see how that could
happen if you're not working and noone's calling and things are slow.
So why isn't anyone calling me?

(01:01:11):
Am I not as good as Ithought I was gonna be?
Thankfully, I still have confidence.
The lack of work sometimeshasn't affected that yet.
Hopefully it won't.
But yeah, just finding lifeoutside of work because otherwise
you'll go crazy, whatever that is.
Like projects around the house even.
I don't know, like for me, I justhave to be doing something productive

(01:01:35):
and creative at the same time.
So that's why I am sellingmugs on Etsy for fun.
Oh my God, I wanna do that.
I'm so curious to do that.
But I love creative, butproductive because that's right.
Right along with my needs.
I'm sure like most of the listeners,if I'm not busy, then I, all I have to

(01:01:59):
deal with are my thoughts and I'm like.
Right.
And it's so easy to go down that rabbithole of I'm not insert enough insert
and it does impact your creativity.
It does weigh you down very much heavily.
So that's why I asked ChatGPT to helpme come up with a routine to step

(01:02:22):
away from my phone because I noticedthat I was just constantly looking
at my Instagram and I'd see otherphotographers and they're showing they're
behind the scenes and I'm over here.
I ain't doing shit.
Well look, I do realize though.
A lot of that don't believeeverything on Instagram.
I know people who post old work tomake it seem like they're working.
And I also know that a lot ofstuff they're not being paid for.

(01:02:45):
It may look like I'm on set,but I'm really on a test shoot.
So I try not to let, 'cause you didask me if I do a social media detox,
I don't because I don't let socialmedia get to me that much because I'm
aware that a lot of it's bullshit.
I'm about to be 40 this year.
I remember what life was like beforecell phones and I remember what life
was like now and it makes me genuinelyappreciate my younger years and my teenage

(01:03:10):
years when I didn't have a cell phone.
I know my mom was worriedabout me half of the damn time.
'cause I could just leave andnobody would know where I'm at.
And then it's like, where'd she go?
And I'm like, is she coming back?
And I do miss just notbeing able to be reached.
It's the strangest thing.
But I would just like anafternoon where it's just.

(01:03:31):
Me and my phone is at home and Idon't have to worry about anything.
I just, I wanna be less attachedto my phone and I don't know.
It would be nice.
Yeah.
We're at the age where we know whatit was like the old normal way.
We knew what it was like to not havea cell phone, not have Instagram,

(01:03:52):
not even have streaming music.
You know what I mean?
I feel like our age is like rightwhere it's the end, because after that,
everyone had a, has a cell phone nowat eight and their own iPad at four.
I'm like, what don't you guys playwith Barbies and Hot Wheels anymore?
That's why all of these kids noware, have no attention spans.

(01:04:14):
They can't focus on anythingbecause they don't get to use their
imagination and just sit there.
Yeah.
To just be bored.
To be bored.
I, someone sent me something onInstagram that kids don't know how
to be bored anymore and they don'tknow how to entertain themselves
without a device, which is crazy.
And I do that too sometimes.
I'll be scrolling while watchingTV and I'm like, I'm watching tv.

(01:04:36):
Why am I scrolling?
Put the phone down.
Exactly.
Is this show not enough?
If it's that boring,put something else on.
But I have lost a job because I respondedlike 20 minutes later, which is absurd.
What?
Sorry?
We found someone else.
'cause they're sending out amass email or sending copy and
pasting, replacing the name.
Whoever responds first wins.
So I've unfortunately, wheneverit's an inquiry, even if I'm on

(01:04:58):
set, I'll be like, Hey, I'm on set.
I'm interested, but I willget back to you later.
Yeah, if I can do that.
Or even set an auto reply to say,Hey, I'm away from my computer.
I'm doing this, I'm doing that.
I will get to it tonight.
Please wait.
Yeah, that's usually, yeah, you haveto do that because they, a lot of

(01:05:22):
these shoots are still last minute.
They're trying to fillthe spot pretty quickly.
So what is exciting youright now in work in life?
How might that sneak into your next shoot?
I'm having a lot of fun doing testshoots right now because I am toying
with getting into beauty styling andI wanted to see how I liked that.

(01:05:44):
I actually post some new pics todayfrom my first beauty test shoot,
but I'm doing another one tomorrow.
And it was fun.
It was really fun.
I don't have to cook anything, but I canstill make pretty things and be creative.
Also, makeup is just likefun and pretty and colorful.
So that was, that's fun.
I'm really looking forward to that and to,I don't have any page shoots coming up at

(01:06:08):
the moment that I'm super excited about.
They're just those onesthat are just work.
But I'm looking forward to doingprojects for myself that I wanna explore.
So, maybe lining up some moretest shoots in the next few weeks.
Test shoots can be expensive, so Ilike to space them out because all
that money comes out of your pocket.
You can do returns if you're lucky.

(01:06:28):
But yeah, I think that's what'scoming up that I'm excited about.
I'm excited about work picking up.
I have faith that it will 'cause it'sbeen a little slow and I'm excited
about maybe exploring other avenuesin the food industry that might
allow me to not be freelance one day.

(01:06:51):
I love freelancing so much, and I lovethe fact that I'm not tied down by
anything and I can do whatever I want,but some stability might be interesting
if I could find the right space.
So I don't know.
I think those are thethings test shoots are.
Those are all exciting things, I think.
Yeah.
I wanna ask one last question.
Where can the listeners find you?

(01:07:14):
Where can they buy a ceramic mug from you?
How can we support you?
Oh man.
My Instagram is Danielle Campbell food.
Let me just make sure that's right, 'causeI recently changed my Instagram name
and it's con Yes, it's Danielle CampbellFood and the link on my Instagram leads

(01:07:36):
you to everything to my website, myportfolio, my recipes, and my ceramics.
So go crazy.
Yay.
Thank you so, so much for being onthe show and for sharing everything.
Like I've said this, and I'll keep sayingthis with every interview that I do,

(01:07:59):
this is absolutely one of my favoriteconversations, but this one just felt
so much deep because of, we have somany things in common and I'm like,
I feel like I'm talking to a bestiethat is like right there next to me.
So thank you for just being so openand transparent with everything.
It's been great, and I reallyappreciate you having me on.

(01:08:23):
This episode is written and producedby me, your host, Mica McCook.
Like this episode, give us afive star review on Apple Podcast
and subscribe to the Savory Shotwherever you get your podcast.
Or follow me your host, Mica McCook,on Instagram at Mica dot McCook.

(01:08:44):
Or you can follow the podcast onInstagram at a Savory Shot podcast.
If you have any questions, comments, orwould like to be featured on the show,
email us at [e-mail].