August 27, 2025 • 22 mins
Grief doesn’t come with a timeline—and six years in, I’ve realised it’s not about “acceptance” or "moving on" but about learning how to live with and integrate both the love and the loss. 💔 In this episode of The Self Development Collective, I share openly about my own grief journey after losing my brother, what has shifted since my “3 years in” update, and the unexpected ways grief continues to shape life years later.
If you’re walking through grief, or supporting someone who is, I hope this conversation offers comfort and connection. Grief is messy, deeply personal, and never looks the same for everyone. In this episode, we explore:
⏳ What grief can look and feel like six years later
💭 The ongoing challenges that still show up over time
🌙 How loss can shape the way we live day to day
💡 Why respecting our limits and being gentle with ourselves matters in healing
This isn’t about “fixing” grief—it’s about honesty, hope, and knowing you’re not alone in the process of carrying loss.
Join the email community //
Get reflections, insights, and practical tools to support your personal development journey—delivered straight to your inbox.
👉 https://selfdevelopmentcollective.com/email-sign-up/
Say hi //
TikTok → https://tiktok.com/@selfdevelopmentcollect
Instagram → https://instagram.com/selfdevelopmentcollective/
Facebook → https://www.facebook.com/selfdevelopmentcollective/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
this is something that's helped meimmensely, through the years in helping
(00:03):
me to process everything that's happened.
It lessened the need for distraction andmade me less reactive to small stresses.
These are two strategies that havebeen amazing for me in helping me to
get where I am today in six years.
And that's the reasonI'm talking about it.
I think hearing other people's journeys,can be helpful in understanding
what our journey might look like.
Hi there.
(00:24):
My name is Giulia, and welcome tothe Self-Development Collective.
Here we explore personal developmentin a way that honors all parts of
ourselves, including the tricky parts.
I share genuine stories andreflections mixed with ideas from
psychotherapy and self-developmentto help us figure out how to live
more authentically and build deeperconnections with ourselves and others.
I am so excited to have you here.
(00:47):
Hey guys, and welcome to this episodeof The Self-Development Collective.
So one of the most popular episodescoping with grief and loss.
Three years in what yourgrief might look like.
And I wanted to do an update episodebecause I think that that is something
that I would've wanted, with my own grief.
I think hearing other people's journeys,can be helpful in understanding
(01:09):
what our journey might look like.
And again, I'm not saying thatit's going look exactly like this.
I think it's just helps us.
And I always think of this moment.
On grief line where I had someoneask if they would be okay.
And I think that these typesof episodes stemmed from that.
Just to give people a senseof understanding hope.
Direction if they're lookingfor it, by all means.
(01:30):
This is, again, not for everybody.
And I do believe that grief is sucha personal journey, but hearing other
people's experiences and like forexample, if I meet someone, I want
to talk to them about it because Iwant to know what happened for them
and understand, you know, what theydid and what helped and what didn't.
So I want to talk about, thosethree years, and I think it's
really interesting, something thatI'm still not in a place is to
(01:54):
listen to those episodes of myself.
Then, I think especially that episodewas a really difficult one to record.
I remember having to record it intwo parts because I quoted a poem or
I spoke about a poem and I rememberbeing really emotional after it.
So I know now even.
Three years after that, I still findit difficult to listen to those things.
(02:18):
I think it is a really raw part of methat can be really hard to listen to.
So there are still things that Ifind challenging that I can't do
But I think something that haschanged in my process is being
okay with understanding my limits.
not feeling like I need to push them,being really respectful for the place that
I'm in, how far I've come, and knowingthat there will be some things that I can
(02:41):
do and some things that I might not everbe able to do, and being okay with that.
One thing I do know from where Iam now to then three years in, so
Pat passed away in 2018, and aswe know, COVID started in 2020.
Pat passed away at the end of 2018.
So 2019 I went away, met my husband.
Lots of change, lots of distraction.
(03:01):
And then 2020 happened.
And COVID and as we allknow in Melbourne, had.
One of the biggest lockdowns in the world.
We were in lockdown for a while andI know that my drinking was worse.
And my sleeping was reallybad and I got onto coffee.
And I know that coffee is such anormal thing for so many people, but
I do think everyone's so different.
And for me, it became likea stimulant that I would use
(03:24):
to make myself feel better.
And then what would happen isI wouldn't be able to sleep,
so then I would be using.
Like something to help me sleep.
And then I kind of gotstuck in that cycle.
And the thing that helped me sleep was anantihistamine that makes you drowsy, but
I was using it on and off consistently.
Yeah, because I couldn't sleep becauseI was having so much coffee during
the day and then having sleep issuesat night and then drinking as well.
(03:47):
And now when I look at it, I knowthat COVID made did make that harder
because, I was seeing my therapist,but obviously not in person.
So I wasn't able to do havening,which is something I'll talk
about later in the episode.
But I wasn't able to do any of thosesort of methods to support myself.
And yeah, I was.
Still in a really difficult place.
And I think that's something to I reallywant to explain because, you know, that
(04:08):
episode, while I still had understandingand was working through it, I was still
very heavily struggling with my alcohol.
I was really struggling withmy sleep, you know, sleep aids.
my anxiety was through the roof.
Again, leaning on that coffee,that stimulant to make me
feel better and more like.
Go getting during the day.
So understanding that and looking back,I can see that, and again, I wouldn't,
(04:33):
I don't think I could change that.
I, this is again, somethingthat I've learned in grief.
It's just where ourprocess is, our process.
And so I don't think there's anythingI could have done to be different in
that I think I was doing the best thatI could, and I fully understand that,
and I don't like regret any of it.
I don't look at it and go,oh, what was wrong with me?
I just look at it and go,okay, I wasn't coping.
And I think that.
(04:53):
Something that I remember and usedto always say is like, that is grief.
That's what it looks like.
It's not coping like.
And I remember someone saying tome, the definition of coping is
struggling, but continuing on.
And so to me, I was coping because eventhough it was like full of struggle.
It wouldn't look anydifferent because it's grief.
Our loved ones aren't there, and it'ssuch a big huge experience that I just
(05:15):
don't think it could look any different.
So it took me a really, like I had anidea, obviously, that the sleep was
related to Pat, but something thatit took me a long time to understand
was that, you know, we createassociations based on the way our.
Like our loved ones have passed away.
And something I learned fromDavid Kessler was, you know, our
grief is shaped by the death.
So my brother had braincancer, he passed away.
(05:38):
After three and a half years of battlingit, and he passed away at home at night.
But my brother used to have a lot ofseizures at night as well, and so there
was a lot happening around nighttime.
And it was really interesting becauseI remember saying to my therapist,
bedtime just does not feel safe.
Like I think most things happen at night.
And then.
Actually happened was when I hadkids, my sleep got worse because,
(06:00):
you know, it was really interesting.
We worked on understanding that becausemy brother had passed away at night.
He passed away at night at 1:55AM but a lot of the seizures and
things were happening at night.
I had a deep nervous system associationbetween nighttime and danger and loss.
So I felt like if somethingwas going happen to my kids,
it was going happen at night.
And so I would wake up and be like,okay, well at least I'm awake, so if
(06:21):
anything goes wrong, I'll be awake.
I do a lot of IFS, whichis internal family systems.
that is a type of therapy I wouldhighly recommend, for anybody,
even if you're experiencing grief.
But if you're not, and there's otherchallenges, something I learned with that
and the way they talk about it in internalfamily systems is that we have parts.
So a part of me carried a belief thatthe worst things happen at night.
(06:42):
Or you can just lookat it as I had a deep.
subconscious belief, around theworst things happening at night.
So I felt like by staying up, Iwould be able to prevent that.
And I was getting reallyhypervigilant at night.
Couldn't relax properly to fall asleep.
And then that's why I tendedto lean on the sleep aids.
As a coping strategy.
So it took me literally only thisyear to tackle that head on because
(07:05):
it involves such a difficult moment.
and obviously I, I'm not going go intoit because it can be very triggering
both for myself and for listeners, but.
I had to really get into thatexperience safely with a therapist
in a way that I felt comfortable.
So I do want to emphasize that, butthat was something that really helped
me understanding the connection andhow it was impacting the way I was
(07:25):
living, and the meaning that I haddeveloped from those experiences that
was impacting how I was living now.
I know that people love to use chatGPT for this, and I do think that
chat GPT is a great way to give usideas on what's going on for us to
help us understand maybe the deepermeaning that we've created, but to
(07:46):
really shift that meaning, to reallyshift that impact that the trauma had.
I really needed to work with thetherapist, to do the havening,
to do something that was likepsychosensory, and I will go into that.
Soon, actually the nextstep, the next point.
But I really want to emphasizethat because that really is
where the change happens.
That's where the coping sort ofshifts, where we can really start to.
(08:09):
Shift some of those experiences thisis from my personal experience, this
is how I've been able to shift thoseexperiences to sleep better, to feel
safer, has really been through haveningand this process with my therapist.
So I really want to emphasize thatbecause I know there's lots of
people at the moment relying onchat GPT to understand themselves.
And I think that's an amazing step andI think it's always helpful, but I think
that's also very powerful to take tosomeone that can support you in using
(08:33):
that with other modes to help you process.
So I want to talk about haveningbecause this is something that
is not spoken about a lot.
It's similar to EMDR, I think in itsapproach, But if you are looking for
some sort of process, somatic bodyprocess that can support you it links
it to EMDR, I've heard is great, but Iuse havening when my therapist uses it.
(08:54):
this is something that's helped meimmensely, through the years in helping
me to process everything that's happened.
Again, the meaning that's come up.
So havening is a psychosensorytechnique using gentle touch.
So basically you can do it yourself,but the, therapist can do it as well.
It's like, tapping.
So it's similar to tapping, So thetherapist will first do your forehead,
(09:16):
your arms, and then your wrists like this.
So the therapist will do that whilethey're seated in front of you.
And then you go through what'shappening, the process, what you're
feeling, what's coming up, andthere's like a whole thing to it.
But obviously that's for the therapist.
So how does this actually work?
havening activates the c-tactileafferent nerve fibers, which
signal safety to the brain.
(09:36):
So basically what I do understandabout this is it triggers the
release of oxytocin, calm andconnect hormone, which helps the
body feel safe and emotionally open.
And it also encourages the productionof delta brainwaves, which is linked to
deep relaxation and restorative Sleep.
It lowers cortisol, which is ourstress hormone, moving the nervous
system towards a parasympathetic state.
(09:59):
While in this calm state, recallingdistressing memories allows the brain to
update them with less emotional charge.
And so what it did with me is it helpedme to understand the link between the
nighttime and the danger around that.
It reduced my anxiety.
It actually supported me ingetting off sleeping aids.
And again, I still obviously use it ifI've like had a really stressful day or
(10:19):
maybe it's a milestone or something thatI know I'm going have a lot of anxiety.
So it's not that they're completelygone, I'm just using them in a way
that's like not so consistent atall, but in a way that actually
supports me rather than it becomingreliant and I can't sleep without it.
So it lessened.
And I think something that's the bestthing that's come out of havening.
It lessened the need for distraction andmade me less reactive to small stresses.
(10:41):
So it actually eventuallyled me to dropping coffee.
So I, I have no coffee anymore.
And I've cut down my caffeine, like Idon't even have green tea at this point.
Yeah, because I recognize that,and again, this is not a thing,
a suggestion for anyone else.
This is just me.
I was having a lot of anxiety through theday and I felt like that was impacting
my therapy, the way I was haveningthings, coping with things and getting
(11:03):
off caffeine and coffee helped me to stopusing it as a tool to self soothe myself.
And then I became more comfortablewith coping with things.
But I do think that me becomingless reliant on sleep aids, alcohol,
coffee was definitely a result ofall the havening I'd done before.
So I had done a lot of haveningaround different things around my
grief, for example, moving houses,my cousin getting married, different
(11:28):
things that I found really difficult.
I had done that for yearsand then felt like I had.
Finally got myself into a place whereI didn't want to distract myself
anymore from what was coming up.
And then I got into, the bigsleep sort of challenge and
the trauma around all of that.
So I do want to emphasize that therewere like lots of little things and like
bigger things that I worked on before Igot to the massive memory in havening.
(11:51):
And that I think was a process thatthe havening led me to that iFS and
havening are two strategies that havebeen amazing for me in helping me to
get where I am today in six years.
And that's the reasonI'm talking about it.
the IFS is just a way forus to talk to ourselves.
It's like labeling,that's how I think of it.
You know how people say ums.
Instead of I'm anxious, I feel anxious.
(12:13):
So IFS would say, a part of me feelsanxious, and the whole point of that is
it's supposed to create space, right?
It's supposed to help us identifyless with just and being consumed
by it and gives us an opportunityto understand what's happening.
It's kind of like mindfulness,but it's a really great technique.
so IFS and then haveningtogether helped me to reactivate
(12:34):
tricky feelings, meanings.
And the thing I want to emphasize heretoo is in this work, and especially in
the trauma work that I have done, traumawork and things that they're learning
and what I've read so far, and what Iunderstand is they've really realizing
you don't have to go into trauma memoriesIt's also about understanding the meaning
that we've derived from those experiences.
And something that IFS does is it sayswe have these different parts of our
(12:56):
brain and they refer to it as like parts.
And then we have parts that arecreated as a result of experiences that
hold beliefs, around certain things.
for example, the belief Ihad was sleep is not safe.
Nighttime is when bad things happen,which prevented me from sleeping.
So getting underneath that, meaning Icould have done that by understanding
the part that had been createdrather than going straight into the
(13:18):
memory of when that part was created.
So I think the most important thing thatI've learned from trauma work is it's
about the felt meaning that we create, Andagain, this is just from my experience.
So something that I've realizedin my own work is I don't always
have to get into the memory.
Sometimes the memory isthere of like what's happened
that's created this belief.
Sometimes I can get into it.
(13:39):
Other times it's like really interesting.
It becomes like a guided meditationsort of thing where the parts
sort of do their own thing andthe havening really helps to.
Make me feel safe whileI'm working through that.
So I just wanted to bring that toyou because I know that there's some
people that are concerned that theyhave to get into the memory of things
to really work through their trauma.
And from my experience, and again,I'm not a professional, so I can
(14:01):
only speak from my experience,that hasn't been the case for me.
I had been able to work through thingswithout remembering the whole thing.
Sometimes it's just like havinga flashback of what the memory
is and then working with, thepart from that memory, but not in
that memory, if that makes sense.
So one thing I will say, and onething that I've recognized six years
on that I still struggle with ismost definitely attachment ruptures.
(14:24):
So I've had a few friendship changes,relationship changes, and I still
find those extremely challenging.
I think that for me, they makeme feel like there's a part of
me that says I'm going be alone.
And I think that part is a reflection ofmy grief because one thing that we know
is when we lose someone that we haverelied on, especially if that person was
(14:45):
a prominent attachment figure, we do feelthat fear of, and it's a core fear, right?
it's a little, it's a literal likedeep common fear of our brain.
We are wired to not be alonebecause we know that that
doesn't equal survival, right?
So when we lose someone, that'sthat ingrained in us, in our lives.
That attachment rupture is a lot.
And I think that what happensis anytime I have an attachment
(15:07):
rupture, now I find it triggering.
It stirs deep loneliness and longingfor my brother and I'm aware of that.
And another thing I've learnedis milestones and triggers.
So, triggers around that.
Milestones, whether it's like, forexample, I had a family member, a cousin
who is like a brother to me who justhad a baby and I had to process that.
The idea of going into the hospital,Was one thing that I struggled with.
(15:29):
And then the second thing was,understanding that this was an experience
that wasn't going happen for my brother.
And then seeing like the closest thingto, I found very triggering, and that
was also the same for his wedding.
I had to process all of that andreally work with the parts that
really were sad that my brotherwasn't going to experience this.
That's something that I knowcomes up as well, and now I go
to my therapist and say, this ishappening, this is going be an issue.
(15:53):
I know this is going come up.
I'm feeling it.
Like I kind of, and I think somethingthat therapy has helped me with.
The havening, the parts has reallyhelped me to understand my body better.
So I know when things arecoming up, I feel them.
I sense them and I'm like, okay,I need to work around this.
And it's not alwaysstraightforward, right?
Sometimes I'll feel it for a little whileand be like, I've gotta work on this.
And there's a part of methat just wants to avoid it.
I am in no way saying that this issuper straightforward, but I think six
(16:15):
years in, I do know my body better.
I have the strategies and I knowwhat I need to do to support myself
during milestones, attachment,ruptures, things like that.
And another thing I know for a factthat I found difficult and something
that is definitely trauma related is.
I have struggled with my corerelationships in feeling safe in them
(16:36):
because, the experience obviouslyI have learned for me, I've learned
that one of my key relationshipshas, has disappeared or one of my
key relationships is, is not there.
The person's not there.
And so now it's taken me genuinely upuntil this year to be comfortable really
allowing myself to soak into relationshipsto trust that they will be there and be
(16:58):
okay with knowing that I have to do that.
And, and I remember saying to my therapistit's like, feels like a risk because I
know what it feels like to lose someone.
And now I've gotta run that risk againof being so involved with someone and
knowing that it won't last and whatit feels like when it doesn't last.
And so that has taken me a really longtime to understand, and I've only done
(17:20):
it bit by bit where I've learnt to be.
To know that I have to takethose steps and run that risk and
be okay living with that risk.
And it's like that quote, what is it?
It's better to have loved and lost thanto have never loved at all debatable, I
think, when you've lost someone becauseyeah, I think knowing what it feels like
(17:41):
sitting with it can be really hard and.
Yeah, so that's something that I stillhave noticed comes up the attachment
ruptures and something I've only reallybecome aware of in the past two years,
really struggling to connect with peopleand find safety again in connection.
Because when you have an attachmentrupture, it goes against what you know.
So connections no longer feelsafe, they feel risky, right?
(18:04):
So that's again, something that comesup with loss for me in my experience.
So overall, six years down the line.
What's different now?
I want to summarize what I feel like hasbeen massive for me in those changes.
Definitely havening a key point ininterning and managing my anxiety.
Breaking some of those traumaassociations IFS has been great as
(18:25):
a strategy that you don't have tonecessarily get a therapist for.
In terms of working with grief, Iwould always recommend working with
someone even for a couple of sessionsor trying to access someone that has
that experience because it can besuch a difficult thing to get into.
And I, for example, I tried tappingaround my grief and it was horrible
and I got really stuck in it.
And that's why I'm really consciousnow of what I choose to do in my
(18:47):
own time versus with my therapist.
So I want to make that really clear.
I think that cutting caffeine, thehavening, the IFS has helped me and
I think I need fewer distractionsfrom my tricky feelings because I've
sort of developed enough strategies.
Felt safe enough.
Worked with my therapist enough, learnedto work with myself enough that I feel,
safer to be able to sit in it with myself.
(19:08):
I definitely sleep aids, alcoholand, caffeine have all decreased.
So I'm better able to identify and workwith the key triggers or things that come
up, like I said, milestones and whatnot.
And one of the toughest things thatI think, again, going back to that
connection, struggling with otherpeople, I think that I have come
(19:29):
to see, or I have integrated thatconcept that there will be a deep
loneliness that's always there for me.
And again, I'm only speakingfrom my experience, but I think
when a relationship has been soimportant that loneliness will
always be there because it's them.
And I think it's that.
I always think of this concept,loneliness shaped hole of them.
(19:49):
And no one can fill that because it'sfor that person, it's shaped as them.
No one can step into that place.
And so I think something thatdefinitely the biggest learning curve
that I've had in my grief journeyseven years in, is to stop trying
to fill that hole with other people.
And I think I did that a lot forthe first three or four years where
I would try and find someone else.
(20:12):
To experience thatattachment experience with.
And eventually, and again, I wouldsay only this year, so nearly seven
years in, I would say I'm comfortableunderstanding that that will never
be filled because my brother was soimportant to me and his own person.
It's impossible.
And when we think about theconcept, you know, we can't
replace someone with someone else.
But I know that when we areexperiencing grief, we're in so
(20:34):
much pain that we will try anything.
And I think that relationships become acoping strategy as well at some point.
And only now am I in this place whereI'm accepting that the loneliness
is always part of me because Ithink it's a reflection of my grief.
I used to say, and I still thinkbig love, big grief, right?
It's always there.
It's part of me.
But I think I'munderstanding and learning.
(20:56):
It doesn't run my decisions as it used to.
It doesn't run my life.
I think the IFS has helped me to learnto relate to it in a different way,
but I do think that it's that longing,that yearning, that reminds me to
have a deep understanding of life.
That literally is what keeps me infront of the camera, because I just
keep reminding myself that I wantto live in a way that honors him.
And I think that.
(21:17):
That loneliness becomesa driver for meaning.
It drives me and reminds me tolive in a way that I can truly
say I lived, but also that I hadmeaning that I was really living
and being the person I wanted to be.
Because I think that there'ssomething about that loneliness.
It's almost like.
(21:37):
The way I think of it, and I said thisto someone recently, it's almost like
you're 95% there with grief, and there'salways that 5% hanging, understanding
that tomorrow this could be different.
Tomorrow someone could be gone today.
Now, anytime the world could change,because I've experienced that and lived
through it and live with it every singleday, but it's also that that is what
(21:58):
keeps me here going, pushing, striving.
Wanting to be in front of this andtalk about this experience so that
someone can hopefully find it and belike, okay, this person's still living.
Maybe I can too.
I hope that this episode was helpful.
I hope that, again, some of thesetechniques you have access to.
I know that's not the case to everyoneand I just want to acknowledge that.
(22:18):
So havening, IFS, finding atherapist that's really helpful,
that does these techniques as well,and understanding what grief might
look like for you in six years.
I hope that this is somethingthat's given you, something
hopeful, something understanding.
I hope that you've got something outof it because that's literally the
only thing I want from this episode.
I hope that you're doing okay.
(22:39):
I'm sending my love to youfrom one griever to another.
I'm thinking of you.
And thank you as always forlistening to this episode.
I'll catch you in the next one.
this is something that's helped meimmensely, through the years in helping
(00:03):
me to process everything that's happened.
It lessened the need for distraction andmade me less reactive to small stresses.
These are two strategies that havebeen amazing for me in helping me to
get where I am today in six years.
And that's the reasonI'm talking about it.
I think hearing other people's journeys,can be helpful in understanding
what our journey might look like.
Hi there.
(00:24):
My name is Giulia, and welcome tothe Self-Development Collective.
Here we explore personal developmentin a way that honors all parts of
ourselves, including the tricky parts.
I share genuine stories andreflections mixed with ideas from
psychotherapy and self-developmentto help us figure out how to live
more authentically and build deeperconnections with ourselves and others.
I am so excited to have you here.
(00:47):
Hey guys, and welcome to this episodeof The Self-Development Collective.
So one of the most popular episodescoping with grief and loss.
Three years in what yourgrief might look like.
And I wanted to do an update episodebecause I think that that is something
that I would've wanted, with my own grief.
I think hearing other people's journeys,can be helpful in understanding
(01:09):
what our journey might look like.
And again, I'm not saying thatit's going look exactly like this.
I think it's just helps us.
And I always think of this moment.
On grief line where I had someoneask if they would be okay.
And I think that these typesof episodes stemmed from that.
Just to give people a senseof understanding hope.
Direction if they're lookingfor it, by all means.
(01:30):
This is, again, not for everybody.
And I do believe that grief is sucha personal journey, but hearing other
people's experiences and like forexample, if I meet someone, I want
to talk to them about it because Iwant to know what happened for them
and understand, you know, what theydid and what helped and what didn't.
So I want to talk about, thosethree years, and I think it's
really interesting, something thatI'm still not in a place is to
(01:54):
listen to those episodes of myself.
Then, I think especially that episodewas a really difficult one to record.
I remember having to record it intwo parts because I quoted a poem or
I spoke about a poem and I rememberbeing really emotional after it.
So I know now even.
Three years after that, I still findit difficult to listen to those things.
(02:18):
I think it is a really raw part of methat can be really hard to listen to.
So there are still things that Ifind challenging that I can't do
But I think something that haschanged in my process is being
okay with understanding my limits.
not feeling like I need to push them,being really respectful for the place that
I'm in, how far I've come, and knowingthat there will be some things that I can
(02:41):
do and some things that I might not everbe able to do, and being okay with that.
One thing I do know from where Iam now to then three years in, so
Pat passed away in 2018, and aswe know, COVID started in 2020.
Pat passed away at the end of 2018.
So 2019 I went away, met my husband.
Lots of change, lots of distraction.
(03:01):
And then 2020 happened.
And COVID and as we allknow in Melbourne, had.
One of the biggest lockdowns in the world.
We were in lockdown for a while andI know that my drinking was worse.
And my sleeping was reallybad and I got onto coffee.
And I know that coffee is such anormal thing for so many people, but
I do think everyone's so different.
And for me, it became likea stimulant that I would use
(03:24):
to make myself feel better.
And then what would happen isI wouldn't be able to sleep,
so then I would be using.
Like something to help me sleep.
And then I kind of gotstuck in that cycle.
And the thing that helped me sleep was anantihistamine that makes you drowsy, but
I was using it on and off consistently.
Yeah, because I couldn't sleep becauseI was having so much coffee during
the day and then having sleep issuesat night and then drinking as well.
(03:47):
And now when I look at it, I knowthat COVID made did make that harder
because, I was seeing my therapist,but obviously not in person.
So I wasn't able to do havening,which is something I'll talk
about later in the episode.
But I wasn't able to do any of thosesort of methods to support myself.
And yeah, I was.
Still in a really difficult place.
And I think that's something to I reallywant to explain because, you know, that
(04:08):
episode, while I still had understandingand was working through it, I was still
very heavily struggling with my alcohol.
I was really struggling withmy sleep, you know, sleep aids.
my anxiety was through the roof.
Again, leaning on that coffee,that stimulant to make me
feel better and more like.
Go getting during the day.
So understanding that and looking back,I can see that, and again, I wouldn't,
(04:33):
I don't think I could change that.
I, this is again, somethingthat I've learned in grief.
It's just where ourprocess is, our process.
And so I don't think there's anythingI could have done to be different in
that I think I was doing the best thatI could, and I fully understand that,
and I don't like regret any of it.
I don't look at it and go,oh, what was wrong with me?
I just look at it and go,okay, I wasn't coping.
And I think that.
(04:53):
Something that I remember and usedto always say is like, that is grief.
That's what it looks like.
It's not coping like.
And I remember someone saying tome, the definition of coping is
struggling, but continuing on.
And so to me, I was coping because eventhough it was like full of struggle.
It wouldn't look anydifferent because it's grief.
Our loved ones aren't there, and it'ssuch a big huge experience that I just
(05:15):
don't think it could look any different.
So it took me a really, like I had anidea, obviously, that the sleep was
related to Pat, but something thatit took me a long time to understand
was that, you know, we createassociations based on the way our.
Like our loved ones have passed away.
And something I learned fromDavid Kessler was, you know, our
grief is shaped by the death.
So my brother had braincancer, he passed away.
(05:38):
After three and a half years of battlingit, and he passed away at home at night.
But my brother used to have a lot ofseizures at night as well, and so there
was a lot happening around nighttime.
And it was really interesting becauseI remember saying to my therapist,
bedtime just does not feel safe.
Like I think most things happen at night.
And then.
Actually happened was when I hadkids, my sleep got worse because,
(06:00):
you know, it was really interesting.
We worked on understanding that becausemy brother had passed away at night.
He passed away at night at 1:55AM but a lot of the seizures and
things were happening at night.
I had a deep nervous system associationbetween nighttime and danger and loss.
So I felt like if somethingwas going happen to my kids,
it was going happen at night.
And so I would wake up and be like,okay, well at least I'm awake, so if
(06:21):
anything goes wrong, I'll be awake.
I do a lot of IFS, whichis internal family systems.
that is a type of therapy I wouldhighly recommend, for anybody,
even if you're experiencing grief.
But if you're not, and there's otherchallenges, something I learned with that
and the way they talk about it in internalfamily systems is that we have parts.
So a part of me carried a belief thatthe worst things happen at night.
(06:42):
Or you can just lookat it as I had a deep.
subconscious belief, around theworst things happening at night.
So I felt like by staying up, Iwould be able to prevent that.
And I was getting reallyhypervigilant at night.
Couldn't relax properly to fall asleep.
And then that's why I tendedto lean on the sleep aids.
As a coping strategy.
So it took me literally only thisyear to tackle that head on because
(07:05):
it involves such a difficult moment.
and obviously I, I'm not going go intoit because it can be very triggering
both for myself and for listeners, but.
I had to really get into thatexperience safely with a therapist
in a way that I felt comfortable.
So I do want to emphasize that, butthat was something that really helped
me understanding the connection andhow it was impacting the way I was
(07:25):
living, and the meaning that I haddeveloped from those experiences that
was impacting how I was living now.
I know that people love to use chatGPT for this, and I do think that
chat GPT is a great way to give usideas on what's going on for us to
help us understand maybe the deepermeaning that we've created, but to
(07:46):
really shift that meaning, to reallyshift that impact that the trauma had.
I really needed to work with thetherapist, to do the havening,
to do something that was likepsychosensory, and I will go into that.
Soon, actually the nextstep, the next point.
But I really want to emphasizethat because that really is
where the change happens.
That's where the coping sort ofshifts, where we can really start to.
(08:09):
Shift some of those experiences thisis from my personal experience, this
is how I've been able to shift thoseexperiences to sleep better, to feel
safer, has really been through haveningand this process with my therapist.
So I really want to emphasize thatbecause I know there's lots of
people at the moment relying onchat GPT to understand themselves.
And I think that's an amazing step andI think it's always helpful, but I think
that's also very powerful to take tosomeone that can support you in using
(08:33):
that with other modes to help you process.
So I want to talk about haveningbecause this is something that
is not spoken about a lot.
It's similar to EMDR, I think in itsapproach, But if you are looking for
some sort of process, somatic bodyprocess that can support you it links
it to EMDR, I've heard is great, but Iuse havening when my therapist uses it.
(08:54):
this is something that's helped meimmensely, through the years in helping
me to process everything that's happened.
Again, the meaning that's come up.
So havening is a psychosensorytechnique using gentle touch.
So basically you can do it yourself,but the, therapist can do it as well.
It's like, tapping.
So it's similar to tapping, So thetherapist will first do your forehead,
(09:16):
your arms, and then your wrists like this.
So the therapist will do that whilethey're seated in front of you.
And then you go through what'shappening, the process, what you're
feeling, what's coming up, andthere's like a whole thing to it.
But obviously that's for the therapist.
So how does this actually work?
havening activates the c-tactileafferent nerve fibers, which
signal safety to the brain.
(09:36):
So basically what I do understandabout this is it triggers the
release of oxytocin, calm andconnect hormone, which helps the
body feel safe and emotionally open.
And it also encourages the productionof delta brainwaves, which is linked to
deep relaxation and restorative Sleep.
It lowers cortisol, which is ourstress hormone, moving the nervous
system towards a parasympathetic state.
(09:59):
While in this calm state, recallingdistressing memories allows the brain to
update them with less emotional charge.
And so what it did with me is it helpedme to understand the link between the
nighttime and the danger around that.
It reduced my anxiety.
It actually supported me ingetting off sleeping aids.
And again, I still obviously use it ifI've like had a really stressful day or
(10:19):
maybe it's a milestone or something thatI know I'm going have a lot of anxiety.
So it's not that they're completelygone, I'm just using them in a way
that's like not so consistent atall, but in a way that actually
supports me rather than it becomingreliant and I can't sleep without it.
So it lessened.
And I think something that's the bestthing that's come out of havening.
It lessened the need for distraction andmade me less reactive to small stresses.
(10:41):
So it actually eventuallyled me to dropping coffee.
So I, I have no coffee anymore.
And I've cut down my caffeine, like Idon't even have green tea at this point.
Yeah, because I recognize that,and again, this is not a thing,
a suggestion for anyone else.
This is just me.
I was having a lot of anxiety through theday and I felt like that was impacting
my therapy, the way I was haveningthings, coping with things and getting
(11:03):
off caffeine and coffee helped me to stopusing it as a tool to self soothe myself.
And then I became more comfortablewith coping with things.
But I do think that me becomingless reliant on sleep aids, alcohol,
coffee was definitely a result ofall the havening I'd done before.
So I had done a lot of haveningaround different things around my
grief, for example, moving houses,my cousin getting married, different
(11:28):
things that I found really difficult.
I had done that for yearsand then felt like I had.
Finally got myself into a place whereI didn't want to distract myself
anymore from what was coming up.
And then I got into, the bigsleep sort of challenge and
the trauma around all of that.
So I do want to emphasize that therewere like lots of little things and like
bigger things that I worked on before Igot to the massive memory in havening.
(11:51):
And that I think was a process thatthe havening led me to that iFS and
havening are two strategies that havebeen amazing for me in helping me to
get where I am today in six years.
And that's the reasonI'm talking about it.
the IFS is just a way forus to talk to ourselves.
It's like labeling,that's how I think of it.
You know how people say ums.
Instead of I'm anxious, I feel anxious.
(12:13):
So IFS would say, a part of me feelsanxious, and the whole point of that is
it's supposed to create space, right?
It's supposed to help us identifyless with just and being consumed
by it and gives us an opportunityto understand what's happening.
It's kind of like mindfulness,but it's a really great technique.
so IFS and then haveningtogether helped me to reactivate
(12:34):
tricky feelings, meanings.
And the thing I want to emphasize heretoo is in this work, and especially in
the trauma work that I have done, traumawork and things that they're learning
and what I've read so far, and what Iunderstand is they've really realizing
you don't have to go into trauma memoriesIt's also about understanding the meaning
that we've derived from those experiences.
And something that IFS does is it sayswe have these different parts of our
(12:56):
brain and they refer to it as like parts.
And then we have parts that arecreated as a result of experiences that
hold beliefs, around certain things.
for example, the belief Ihad was sleep is not safe.
Nighttime is when bad things happen,which prevented me from sleeping.
So getting underneath that, meaning Icould have done that by understanding
the part that had been createdrather than going straight into the
(13:18):
memory of when that part was created.
So I think the most important thing thatI've learned from trauma work is it's
about the felt meaning that we create, Andagain, this is just from my experience.
So something that I've realizedin my own work is I don't always
have to get into the memory.
Sometimes the memory isthere of like what's happened
that's created this belief.
Sometimes I can get into it.
(13:39):
Other times it's like really interesting.
It becomes like a guided meditationsort of thing where the parts
sort of do their own thing andthe havening really helps to.
Make me feel safe whileI'm working through that.
So I just wanted to bring that toyou because I know that there's some
people that are concerned that theyhave to get into the memory of things
to really work through their trauma.
And from my experience, and again,I'm not a professional, so I can
(14:01):
only speak from my experience,that hasn't been the case for me.
I had been able to work through thingswithout remembering the whole thing.
Sometimes it's just like havinga flashback of what the memory
is and then working with, thepart from that memory, but not in
that memory, if that makes sense.
So one thing I will say, and onething that I've recognized six years
on that I still struggle with ismost definitely attachment ruptures.
(14:24):
So I've had a few friendship changes,relationship changes, and I still
find those extremely challenging.
I think that for me, they makeme feel like there's a part of
me that says I'm going be alone.
And I think that part is a reflection ofmy grief because one thing that we know
is when we lose someone that we haverelied on, especially if that person was
(14:45):
a prominent attachment figure, we do feelthat fear of, and it's a core fear, right?
it's a little, it's a literal likedeep common fear of our brain.
We are wired to not be alonebecause we know that that
doesn't equal survival, right?
So when we lose someone, that'sthat ingrained in us, in our lives.
That attachment rupture is a lot.
And I think that what happensis anytime I have an attachment
(15:07):
rupture, now I find it triggering.
It stirs deep loneliness and longingfor my brother and I'm aware of that.
And another thing I've learnedis milestones and triggers.
So, triggers around that.
Milestones, whether it's like, forexample, I had a family member, a cousin
who is like a brother to me who justhad a baby and I had to process that.
The idea of going into the hospital,Was one thing that I struggled with.
(15:29):
And then the second thing was,understanding that this was an experience
that wasn't going happen for my brother.
And then seeing like the closest thingto, I found very triggering, and that
was also the same for his wedding.
I had to process all of that andreally work with the parts that
really were sad that my brotherwasn't going to experience this.
That's something that I knowcomes up as well, and now I go
to my therapist and say, this ishappening, this is going be an issue.
(15:53):
I know this is going come up.
I'm feeling it.
Like I kind of, and I think somethingthat therapy has helped me with.
The havening, the parts has reallyhelped me to understand my body better.
So I know when things arecoming up, I feel them.
I sense them and I'm like, okay,I need to work around this.
And it's not alwaysstraightforward, right?
Sometimes I'll feel it for a little whileand be like, I've gotta work on this.
And there's a part of methat just wants to avoid it.
I am in no way saying that this issuper straightforward, but I think six
(16:15):
years in, I do know my body better.
I have the strategies and I knowwhat I need to do to support myself
during milestones, attachment,ruptures, things like that.
And another thing I know for a factthat I found difficult and something
that is definitely trauma related is.
I have struggled with my corerelationships in feeling safe in them
(16:36):
because, the experience obviouslyI have learned for me, I've learned
that one of my key relationshipshas, has disappeared or one of my
key relationships is, is not there.
The person's not there.
And so now it's taken me genuinely upuntil this year to be comfortable really
allowing myself to soak into relationshipsto trust that they will be there and be
(16:58):
okay with knowing that I have to do that.
And, and I remember saying to my therapistit's like, feels like a risk because I
know what it feels like to lose someone.
And now I've gotta run that risk againof being so involved with someone and
knowing that it won't last and whatit feels like when it doesn't last.
And so that has taken me a really longtime to understand, and I've only done
(17:20):
it bit by bit where I've learnt to be.
To know that I have to takethose steps and run that risk and
be okay living with that risk.
And it's like that quote, what is it?
It's better to have loved and lost thanto have never loved at all debatable, I
think, when you've lost someone becauseyeah, I think knowing what it feels like
(17:41):
sitting with it can be really hard and.
Yeah, so that's something that I stillhave noticed comes up the attachment
ruptures and something I've only reallybecome aware of in the past two years,
really struggling to connect with peopleand find safety again in connection.
Because when you have an attachmentrupture, it goes against what you know.
So connections no longer feelsafe, they feel risky, right?
(18:04):
So that's again, something that comesup with loss for me in my experience.
So overall, six years down the line.
What's different now?
I want to summarize what I feel like hasbeen massive for me in those changes.
Definitely havening a key point ininterning and managing my anxiety.
Breaking some of those traumaassociations IFS has been great as
(18:25):
a strategy that you don't have tonecessarily get a therapist for.
In terms of working with grief, Iwould always recommend working with
someone even for a couple of sessionsor trying to access someone that has
that experience because it can besuch a difficult thing to get into.
And I, for example, I tried tappingaround my grief and it was horrible
and I got really stuck in it.
And that's why I'm really consciousnow of what I choose to do in my
(18:47):
own time versus with my therapist.
So I want to make that really clear.
I think that cutting caffeine, thehavening, the IFS has helped me and
I think I need fewer distractionsfrom my tricky feelings because I've
sort of developed enough strategies.
Felt safe enough.
Worked with my therapist enough, learnedto work with myself enough that I feel,
safer to be able to sit in it with myself.
(19:08):
I definitely sleep aids, alcoholand, caffeine have all decreased.
So I'm better able to identify and workwith the key triggers or things that come
up, like I said, milestones and whatnot.
And one of the toughest things thatI think, again, going back to that
connection, struggling with otherpeople, I think that I have come
(19:29):
to see, or I have integrated thatconcept that there will be a deep
loneliness that's always there for me.
And again, I'm only speakingfrom my experience, but I think
when a relationship has been soimportant that loneliness will
always be there because it's them.
And I think it's that.
I always think of this concept,loneliness shaped hole of them.
(19:49):
And no one can fill that because it'sfor that person, it's shaped as them.
No one can step into that place.
And so I think something thatdefinitely the biggest learning curve
that I've had in my grief journeyseven years in, is to stop trying
to fill that hole with other people.
And I think I did that a lot forthe first three or four years where
I would try and find someone else.
(20:12):
To experience thatattachment experience with.
And eventually, and again, I wouldsay only this year, so nearly seven
years in, I would say I'm comfortableunderstanding that that will never
be filled because my brother was soimportant to me and his own person.
It's impossible.
And when we think about theconcept, you know, we can't
replace someone with someone else.
But I know that when we areexperiencing grief, we're in so
(20:34):
much pain that we will try anything.
And I think that relationships become acoping strategy as well at some point.
And only now am I in this place whereI'm accepting that the loneliness
is always part of me because Ithink it's a reflection of my grief.
I used to say, and I still thinkbig love, big grief, right?
It's always there.
It's part of me.
But I think I'munderstanding and learning.
(20:56):
It doesn't run my decisions as it used to.
It doesn't run my life.
I think the IFS has helped me to learnto relate to it in a different way,
but I do think that it's that longing,that yearning, that reminds me to
have a deep understanding of life.
That literally is what keeps me infront of the camera, because I just
keep reminding myself that I wantto live in a way that honors him.
And I think that.
(21:17):
That loneliness becomesa driver for meaning.
It drives me and reminds me tolive in a way that I can truly
say I lived, but also that I hadmeaning that I was really living
and being the person I wanted to be.
Because I think that there'ssomething about that loneliness.
It's almost like.
(21:37):
The way I think of it, and I said thisto someone recently, it's almost like
you're 95% there with grief, and there'salways that 5% hanging, understanding
that tomorrow this could be different.
Tomorrow someone could be gone today.
Now, anytime the world could change,because I've experienced that and lived
through it and live with it every singleday, but it's also that that is what
(21:58):
keeps me here going, pushing, striving.
Wanting to be in front of this andtalk about this experience so that
someone can hopefully find it and belike, okay, this person's still living.
Maybe I can too.
I hope that this episode was helpful.
I hope that, again, some of thesetechniques you have access to.
I know that's not the case to everyoneand I just want to acknowledge that.
(22:18):
So havening, IFS, finding atherapist that's really helpful,
that does these techniques as well,and understanding what grief might
look like for you in six years.
I hope that this is somethingthat's given you, something
hopeful, something understanding.
I hope that you've got something outof it because that's literally the
only thing I want from this episode.
I hope that you're doing okay.
(22:39):
I'm sending my love to youfrom one griever to another.
I'm thinking of you.
And thank you as always forlistening to this episode.
I'll catch you in the next one.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.