Sinners & K-Pop Demon Hunters With Tara Edwards

Today’s returning guest is pop culture commentator, Twitch streamer, and cybersecurity analyst Tara Edwards. In this episode, we discuss two films that have come out this year, both of which carry a culturally specific lens centered around demons, sinners, and music: “Sinners” and “K-Pop Demon Hunters.” We dive inside both films to compare and contrast their thematic elements, usage of music and spirituality, and their impact within their respective cultural spheres.

 

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Episode Transcript

Robert Kuang (00:04):
Welcome to side by side, a podcast where I Robert
Kuang take you insideconversations with artists,
creatives, healers and warriorstaking the charge in their
transformational story. Today'sreturning guest is pop culture
commentator, Twitch streamer andcybersecurity analyst Kara

(00:26):
Edwards. In this episode, wediscuss two films that have come
out this year, both of whichcarry a culturally specific lens
centered around demons, sinnersand music, this being sinners
and K Pop demon hunters. We diveinside both films to compare and
contrast their thematicelements, usage of music and

(00:46):
spirituality and their impactwithin their respective cultural
spheres. During this episode,you hear a few instances where I
am rather enthusiasticallytapping on my lav microphone,
which is something new. I'mtrying out. This only happens in
a few spots and lasts a fewseconds. Lesson learned for the
future. About my jazz hands,I'll be sure to keep that to a

(01:08):
minimum going forward. So thankyou for your patience. You can
find more side by side episodesat side by side
podcast.podbean.com, and ifyou'd like to connect with me
about my services, please visitwww dot Robert Kuang, home.com

(01:30):
hopefully this will be like asomewhat organized, thoughtful
episode, but I only suggested itbecause other people were
comparing sinners to notnecessarily saying they're
similar in quality per se, butsinners and K Pop demon hunters.
There's been a lot of likediscussions around these two
movies, and I know we bothenjoyed them, maybe for

(01:51):
different reasons. We're in verydifferent ways as well. I would
guess you have a preferencebetween the two movies. Is that
fair to say? Well,

Tara Edwards (02:00):
I mean, objectively, sinners is the
better written film. I

Robert Kuang (02:05):
would agree with that. Hang on, before people
shut off this episode, we havethoughtful points about K Pop
demon hunters, which is not abad movie, the fact that it's
going viral with kids and stuff.I thought it was like a very
solid movie. I found comparingthe two movies specifically to
be really, really silly, justbecause they both happen to have

(02:25):
like, impactful music in it,which seems to be the only,
well, one of the few things,right? I mean, did you see
anything between them?

Tara Edwards (02:32):
I think people, first of all, I think to dismiss
like children's films or likechildren's like IP as somehow
less sophisticated is alreadyjust like bad because, like
Studio Ghibli makes amazingfilms that are for children and
for adults and for everyone, andthey're great storytelling. So I

(02:55):
don't think that that hasanything to do with it. I just
think that it's very clear thatif you're trying to tell the
story of k pop as a genre, andyou only have 90 minutes to do
it, some things are going tofall flat. And I think a lot of
these subplots in K Pop DemonHunters fell flat because of

(03:18):
that. There was a hugeflattening effect just because
of runtime, had to be done likeit's a 90 minute film. You You
don't have time to reallyexplore why Mira personality is
so off putting in k pop, and whyshe has this like family
backstory that we learned prettymuch nothing about besides two

(03:38):
lines

Robert Kuang (03:39):
well, and this is also because we are both OG long
time k pop fans, so there's alot of cultural references,
despite the fact that neither ofus are Korean that we have been,
like, exposed to for a long timenow. Yes, and there was
something about the viral effectof K Pop demon hunters, where my
reaction was like, Yeah, this isk pop exactly. I just wasn't

(04:01):
having the same reaction as,maybe, like a lot of people,
because this movie is breakingall kinds of records, maybe in a
way, because it's very, veryaccessible. Because I will say
that it's like very, like, crowdpleasing type of movie,

Tara Edwards (04:14):
yeah. And I would say that not to just immediately
jump into contrasting the twofilms, but I would say that
where k pop Demon Hunters triesto be accessible to a wide
audience, sinners does not careif you don't understand 1930s
Southern American politics, itjust drops you in and you are

(04:36):
required to do the work. Youknow, there's arguments both and
against that kind of style. ButI think, you know, shout out to
NYU, I guess dramatic you Iforgot he went to USC, but I'm
mentioning that because one ofthe sort of things you hear

(04:57):
often in Dramatic Writing inDDW. Because the more hyper
specific your storytelling is,the more universal it becomes.
It's kind of like a paradox,right? It's like, the less you
try to over explain yourself,the better off you are as a
storytelling device,

Robert Kuang (05:16):
absolutely and not that centers is light on, like
serving people. You know, thethings that would normally
require, media literacy, I guessI will say the movie is over. I
think it's over two hours. It'slonger, for sure, so it feels
less like a movie done bycommittees, 100% you

Tara Edwards (05:37):
can tell. And I mean, you also know, based on
all of the drama around themaking of sinners that this was
Ryan's baby. He said, If I don'thave, not to quote Beyonce, if I
don't see any of my notesapplied, I just don't see the
point. But like you can justjust tell that, you know, it's,

(06:03):
it's the difference between afilm made by what could be,
arguably, an author, Director,versus a film made by Netflix.

Robert Kuang (06:13):
Yes, you know, I'm not a director. I don't judge.
I'm not going to judge peoplefor the projects that get them
work or get them the nextproject and whatever. But Ryan
Coogler has, if you follow, ifyou followed his career at all.
He's paid his dues by far morethan probably any Black
Filmmakers active today to getto where he is, to kind of,

(06:33):
quote, unquote, earn the spot tomake something like sinners,
right? And we can go into someof the deal that he made for
sinners, but this is like hisstory, inspired by his
upbringing, his family, I thinkhe mentioned, like, an uncle,
specifically, who was musicallygifted. It's so funny, you
brought up Beyonce becauseBeyonce also paid tribute to a

(06:53):
fabulous uncle that's becomevery famous.

Tara Edwards (06:56):
Yes, Uncle Johnny made my dress that cheap
spandex. She looks a mess. Yeah,

Robert Kuang (07:01):
and I, and you can feel it right. It's not just
like I'm making this movie tomake a certain amount from the
box office or something likethat. Although similar to K Pop,
demon hunters, sinners thatpeople, a lot of people, were
under, under selling it andpredicting a lot of low numbers,
which sinners all kind of blewout of the

Tara Edwards (07:21):
water as well, and variety will have to forever eat
their words for that flopprediction about how sinners
would be received by wideaudiences. And you know to me,
I'm just gonna keep saying itlike this is, this is what
happens when you make art into abusiness. You when You

(07:45):
prioritize, you know, stupidpursuits of profit over artistic
expression, you end up justmaking a lot of slump and what
happens when you reinvest inthose are like those artists who
are dedicated to their craft isit will return 10 fold, billions

(08:09):
of dollars on a film that likepeople, even who have no context
for Southern American culture.Love this movie. People in Asia
love sinners. People in Japanlove sinners the same way

Robert Kuang (08:25):
they liked Black Panther. Quite frankly, there
you go. You have to set thescene for people to try to
embrace something that maybethey haven't seen all too often
in cinema. And I would saysinners is one of those. Yes,
there have been other vampiremovies. Yes, there have been
other movies about the Jim CrowSouth, but his fusion of these
different genres. I mean, incase you can't tell, we both

(08:46):
love Ryan Cooper, yeah. So thismovie just we were both like we
were talking about for weeks andweeks and weeks when it first
came out, just the two of us,the discourse immediately got
exhausted, which is why Ididn't. I was like, let's I was,
at first I wanted to gush aboutit, but then quickly I was like,
I don't know. I think I'm goingto be taken out by the

(09:06):
discourse. Yeah, so

Tara Edwards (09:08):
it's like, no more discourse. I'm simply correct.
I'm simply correct. No morediscourse

Robert Kuang (09:18):
would you call because I'm this is on my mind
because I recently saw weapons,and that's another one where
some people, you know nowadays,unless it's like, terrify or
people don't think it's a horrormovie, and so they're like, oh,
I don't know if weapons is ahorror movie, but would you say
sinners is a horror movie?Because I saw someone,

Tara Edwards (09:34):
you know, genre is a funny thing. They say, Sorry,
I am in my goddamn Beyonce backtoday, but that's what Linda
Martel is quoted. Is quoted oncowboy Carter. And you know,
genre is a funny thing. Iactually saw a New Yorker piece
last night when I was doing alittle bit of research for this

(09:55):
episode, talking about howhorror as a genre comes. Can
sometimes pigeonhole films, asyou mentioned, like people go in
with the expectation of beingscared, and you know the concept
of a jump scare, unfortunately,was beat into a dead horse by
bloom house, which no shade. Ido love a good bloom house

(10:16):
horror film. I love theconjuring. I love all of the
things to come out of thatuniverse. But, you know, the
whole like jump scare as arepresentation of horror
overall, did pigeonhole us, uh,horror film enjoyers in society,

(10:38):
do I think centers is a horrorfilm? Yeah, I think so. I think
it's a horror film. You can addother descriptors, like Southern
Gothic, or, you know, suspenseor action

Robert Kuang (10:50):
horror, folk horror, yeah, I think, yeah, for
sure. I don't know why we're sostuck on this topic about
genres, but it definitely comesup more often than not. With
horror. You gotta be graded bylike the fans, who just can
withstand any amount of gore andviolence and what have you
thrown at the screen and jumpscares and loud noises? I don't

(11:11):
think sinners is necessarilytrying to top any of those
things in terms of spectacle. Itwas just the story itself is
horror. You know what I mean.There are elements of horror
buried within, within the storythat is horrifying. But I think
what makes Ryan cooler sointeresting is that these
elements are actually just apart of human history, or in

(11:32):
this case, the Jim Crow South.So I think it's really, really
smart to infuse this story withthe horror element, because of
the ways that he got to make allthese metaphors, right that are
so rich about vampirism andthings like that, in order to
really have people sit with thehorror,

Tara Edwards (11:52):
yes, the horror of life as black people in America.
You know, the more that I thinkabout it, I would actually
classify sinners as a thriller,

Robert Kuang (12:02):
I would kind of say weapons is too and I'm sure
I'll get your thoughts on itonce you see it, but I'm like,
What's wrong with that? Go on?

Tara Edwards (12:08):
Yeah, no, I was just saying, like, if you think
about the concept of like athriller, as in, like a film
that doesn't necessarily scareyou, but, you know, gets your
heart racing, whether that'sthrough the action or the, you
know, suspense, I thinkThriller, Horror, Thriller, like
would be what I would classifyit as a genre. But people are

(12:32):
also dying on the Hill thatcenters is a musical, which is
also like,

Robert Kuang (12:40):
the music is great. See that that scene
knocked people out of theirfocus. Because I'm just like,
This is not a musical. You'rejust awestruck by the music, if
you will. Yeah, and, andsimilarly, you know, comparing
it to K Pop demon hunt, justreal quick, that has more of a
kind of a musical theater vibeto it. There are like, literal

(13:02):
set pieces built around themusic centers. Obviously, is
intentional with every singleelement, particularly the music,
which is so crucial to thestory, but it feels a lot more
just baked into the movie aslike a major element to tell the
story. I didn't necessarily feelit to be a musical. I just
thought it was fucking awesome.Yeah,

Tara Edwards (13:23):
and here's the thing that I think is like the
nail in the coffin, so to speak.That makes it not a musical,
which is that scene wherethey're in the car and they're
telling the story of how he knewthe like the jailed men who are
working the road, and how hetells that horrible story about

(13:48):
how his friends were literallymurdered, and then he just
starts humming the song that wascompletely ad libbed. That
wasn't a song that they wrote toexpress some kind of concept.
Oh, the humming, yeah, that wascompletely outlived that they
didn't write that song in thereto, you know, express, like the
Blues as a concept. Because ofthat, I feel you can't say it's

(14:13):
a musical, because I feel likeif it was a musical, they would
have written a song to go inthat that place. But no, that
was all the actors in thatmoment.

Robert Kuang (14:24):
And once again, it's also why I love Ryan Kugler
is like he blends or likecombines genres like that. It's
a movie about music, for sure,but it's a movie about lots of
different things, like faith,colonization and what have you
so and I will say real quick,there are a couple of things
that I did spot, as far as likethem trying to deliver a

(14:46):
culturally specific movie. Interms of both of these films,
their openings had to do so muchwork. You know, there's, like,
the opening sequence for centerswhere they talk about the
spiritual elements of Africanculture. So. Specifically
introducing the griot and thingslike that, right? And then
there's like the openingsequence, I think it was like
five minutes where I was like,oh my god, they just set up.

(15:09):
They had to set up so muchcontext that, quite frankly, you
and I didn't need, yeah, but Iwas like, if you're just coming
into this world, that's a lot ofinformation you just kind of are
thrown at you. And I did feellike both movies felt like
because they were culturallyspecific, they had a lot of
labor and work to do right fromthe beginning of the movie. Does
that make sense? Yeah,

Tara Edwards (15:29):
I think that where Ryan probably felt like, either
you get it or you don't. I thinkK Pop Demon Hunters definitely
went out on a limb to take thisstory of, you know, saving
humanity from demons throughmusic as an explanation for, you
know, the performance emphasisof K Pop. This is something that

(15:53):
a popular K Pop podcast the idolcast, when she did her review on
Twitter at mention, she saidthat something that a lot of non
K Pop fans coming into K Popprobably have a hard time
understanding is this emphasison performance. And so the movie

(16:14):
kind of explains that emphasisthrough, you know, to save the
Han moon, that's why performanceis so important, whereas we know
that, like k pop as a genres,emphasis on performance is like
a whole lot of things that haveto do with esthetics and

(16:34):
capitalism, and specificallyhyper capitalism in South Korea,
thanks to 1960s upheavals and aton of things. So explaining
that to the average human, ofcourse, they would rather hear
the Oh, it's because they'rethey're fighting demons. Got it
right.

Robert Kuang (16:54):
I think there was a lot of, for better and worse,
more effort to spoon feed theaudience a little bit with Kpop
demon hunters, like, just incase. These are like
superheroes. These are like verygeneralized, like story writing
tropes, right? That people canglom onto, whether you like
spider man, the one that justreleased, which obviously
influenced it, because they'reanimated by the same studio. Or

(17:16):
like, if you just liked animemanga. K Pop, Magical Girl, if
you like one piece or KingdomHearts, there's a lot of like
different things that I thinkthis movie orbits around to in
order to attract fans. I don'tknow if this is where you were
going with this, but Idefinitely feel the way that I
feel about k pop with thismovie, which is, you feel the
commercial energy

Tara Edwards (17:37):
of it. Yes, and K Pop is an extremely
commercialized product, but it'sgeared toward Asia, which is
always such an interesting, Ithink, element to analyze,
because we're so used to Westerninfluence in the West, for a lot
of Western audience, peoplewatching K Pop, demon Hunters,

(18:00):
this is the first time thatthey're ever experiencing Asian
media for Asian people, butthrough a Western lens. Weirdly,
because a lot of the directorsand people behind the creative
elements being Asian American,yeah,

Robert Kuang (18:17):
it's got a Western lens to it, because of the
studio backing and everything.And so it's almost like a
Western interpretation ofsomething that is that did not
necessarily, arguably originatefrom the West, although the
musical influences is verywestern driven, I would say. But
in that sense, it's kind of likeMulan, like the Disney Mulan,
yeah. And it's got this kind ofa interesting multi CultI lens

(18:42):
that is also very commerciallydriven. And I did feel that in K
Pop alongside all of the fun,you know, I love that the
manager is sweet and nothorrible to them. I love that
dorms are look like penthousemansions, even though that's
that's never the case. Okay? Soit's like, yeah, all those are

(19:05):
BTS or whatever.

Tara Edwards (19:07):
Not even them. They were in the trenches in the
old days, trust me, yeah, if

Robert Kuang (19:12):
any of you seen like their dorms, it is not what
this movie portrays, but themusic is

Tara Edwards (19:17):
good, yeah. Circle all the way back to our original
conversation about taking thesetwo seemingly diametrically
opposed films and findingoverlap or similarity, I guess,
is both of them involve thesupernatural, which is always
interesting, because when youlook at black culture and Korean

(19:39):
culture, there is a lot ofsimilarities in the way that the
supernatural is used to kind ofexplain the sort of evils of
colonization and like demonsessentially right? Because, in a
lot of ways, not to be that toowoke friend, because k pop.

(20:00):
Demon Hunters really doesn'tdevelop this idea. There is
something there with the demonsbeing kind of more
representative of thetraditional slash Confucian side
of society and progress isrepresented by, you know, the

(20:21):
the K Pop Demon Hunters breakingout of the stereotypical,
tightly wound view of society,which is kind of the opposite of
how K Pop works.

Robert Kuang (20:36):
Yeah, no, I know exactly what you're saying,
imbuing k pop with any sort ofspiritual lore and historical
lore is very, very interesting,because, you know, when they did
the intro I was no longer, theydid not introduce k pop as its
own kind of modern here's how itwas invented within the
capitalist commercial world ofmusic. It was like one in the

(20:58):
series of musical lineages it'stied to, actually, like making
sure that we push back againstthis evil force, which I thought
was very interesting. I'vealways been interested by the by
Korean shamanism, and also justknowing the complicated
existence of Korean spiritualitycoexisting with Christianity,
and I think sinners also had anequally striking, if not, at

(21:22):
times, divisive reactions fromviewers who have, like, a
religious background, let's sayyeah, centers was much more
heavy on exploring that theme,yeah.

Tara Edwards (21:33):
And this, again, this just goes to, like, run
time, and also just like, youknow, this isn't a film about k
pop and its Korean roots. It'skind of just like a Netflix
thing. What would have been coolis a sort of deep dive into that
history of music and the way ithas been expressed to, you know,

(21:55):
handle the ills of Koreansociety, because the blues is
pansori. So like you couldessentially make a K Pop Demon
Hunters film that is a littlebit more exploratory. In that
regard, if it wasn't a forchildren and B needed to be done

(22:16):
in 90 minutes.

Robert Kuang (22:17):
I listen. I'm ready for the K Pop Vampire
Diaries whenever they want tomake that. I always enjoy when
they put like faith against likesomething that goes up against
faith and spirit, or evensomething just like straight up
religion. It's funny that theyuse music to explore both faith
religion, its influence onpeople, but also kind of like a

(22:40):
moral ambiguity as well, and Ireally like that about probably
more so with sinners and even kpop demon hunters, how they use
music in a way that's not likeit's for this group of people.
You know what? I mean? You'rekind of seeing how music is used
in different communities, fromthe church community to the
vampire, let's say Irishcommunity to the black

(23:01):
community, and I found thatreally, really rich as well.
What did you think of like themusic of sinners?

Tara Edwards (23:08):
I thought the music was insanely good. I mean,
Ludwig. Insert, insane. Your whois his name? Like he's been
working with Ryan since BlackPanther like that original. So
first of all, Ludwig is like,amazing when it comes to

Robert Kuang (23:28):
insanely talented, yes, oh, my God.

Tara Edwards (23:31):
Then writing the music on set as things happen is
very much like giving DannyElfman writing Nightmare Before
Christmas as they were filming.I'm glad y'all are geniuses and
it worked out. But if I wasRyan, I would have been sweating
bullets every single day thatthe stuff was not like ready to
go ahead of schedule.

Robert Kuang (23:53):
I mean, I'm sure he was sweating bullets the
entire time just knowing hewants to proceed over
everything. I

Tara Edwards (24:01):
that type of director, and also as hot as
hell in the South.

Robert Kuang (24:06):
Oh, yeah. So the behind the scenes, I was like, I
don't envy whoever has to dressin that like Chinese opera
costume. I was like, I woulddie. One comment

Tara Edwards (24:17):
I wanted to make about the music, especially that
scene that confused a lot ofpeople who've never seen NYU
students make experimentalfilms. I even had to explain it
to my Normie friend like, she'slike, why are they doing that?
What's what's going on here? AndI'm just like, it's a

(24:38):
experimental expression of theway that music connects everyone
across space and time, becauseyou have ancestors from every
single people that is present inthis film, even Irish presence
too, because, like, he is hisown ancestor, because of

(24:58):
historically film. Vampiresliving for insane, long amount
of time. So like, thoseancestral roots are represented
there. I think that scene, firstof all, I just love a good like
experiment. Let's just try andsee if this shit works and it
worked, and that's I'm alwaysgonna love when a movie

(25:19):
surprises me, because it's rarethat it happens. So when someone
experiments like that, it'slike, holy shit, let's fucking
go. Also, I loved that. It wasconnecting these sounds of
African American culture orblack culture, right? It's like,
you have 90s, hip hop, theblues, you have country, you
have rock. Shawn's my friend whowas like, Is that her dressed up

(25:43):
like the guitarist? And I'mlike, No, the musician her, yes,
like the musician her, becauseyou know how sometimes her has
done those gender vent outfitsas, like, a male guitarist.
Yeah, she's

Robert Kuang (25:58):
just having, like, a random like, Friday night, I
like, shoot,

Tara Edwards (26:04):
just those connections and to African drums
and just like

Robert Kuang (26:09):
and to the future. And that's what confused people,
because they're like, I thinkpeople would get like,
connecting to your roots or yourancestors, but maybe people
weren't quite understanding it,because they were also showing
like future ancestors and futuredescendants and things like
that. Of, you know, more modernblack music and black culture, I

(26:29):
think that is an expression ofhow time is limitless. And, you
know, it's like a flat circle tome, that is a very accurate
expression of that feeling orexperience people have when
music moves or moves your soulthat it is timeless. It's not
just about the past and it'slike being one, right? And he
expressed it without dictatingthat to you, which I love. I

(26:52):
kept thinking about this. I wasjust like, it could have been so
cheesy, cheesy voiceovers orsomething. Or like, it

Tara Edwards (26:58):
could have been extremely heavy handed
explanation. Yeah, yeah. Therecould have been some horrible
voice over explaining, like, youknow, their

Robert Kuang (27:06):
roots, or they overdid it too, yeah? Like, if
you introduce an element likethat, I could have seen another
storyteller being like, we gottause that for the rest of the
film or something, you know,yeah? But, like, he just dropped
it and let it be that is right,that is taste, that is
experience, that is sticking toyour guns. Do you know, saying,
because there are so many waysthat could have been so the

(27:28):
opposite of moving, you know,where you just like, eye
rolling. And it was like, Well,I would say, I guess most people
that I've spoken to were justlike, this is one of the most
memorable sequences in cinema.

Tara Edwards (27:38):
Yeah, he's definitely going down in history
for that scene, for sure, and ifnot, the only explanation is
racism. Like, I'm sorry, like,there's no other way that you
can have like, you know, theCriterion Collection and centers
is not on it, and that scene isnot taught in every future film

(27:59):
school. Back to Ludwig, and justlike the soundtrack of the film,
just obviously, I'm biasedbecause I am black, so like
these things, they're alwaysgoing to ring deeply in my, you
know, my own ancestral andspiritual needs. But, like,
there's just something. But thecrazy thing about is Ludwig is

(28:19):
white and European, and he,like, put together,

Robert Kuang (28:23):
yeah? And gets me, you know that saying about like
people get mad about culturalappropriation and racism and
stuff like that, yeah? But ifyou're Uber talented,

Tara Edwards (28:34):
we'll look the other way. Yes, yes.

Robert Kuang (28:38):
You know, he is the living example of like he's
so talented, and like he's sogood, and what he's doing, if it
was disappointing, people leftand right, it's a different
story, right? Yeah, but he's sogood that everybody just leaves
it alone. And so when people aresaying everyone's being woke, no
one's complaining about Ludwigbecause he's serving, serve
after serve after serve. Youknow,

Tara Edwards (29:00):
I think my favorite, or one of my favorite,
tiktoker, said that's like,black people can tell when
something is sincere versus whensomething is a mockery, just for
profit. Yeah, and so like youcan tell that Ludwig's
experience of not only workingwith Ryan All these years, but

(29:20):
also working on Black Panther,of all things, and then coming
to work on this filmincorporating all these sounds
of the South, you just know thathe has a deep respect and care
for the material, and that's whyit's not cultural appropriation.
It's celebration, if anything,yes, and something that's

(29:41):
interesting to really thinkabout, when you think about the
way that k pop sounds, andespecially music sounds, is that
K Pop itself is based in blackmusic. Sorry, I'm sorry. I'm
sorry about it. Listen, listen,listen. Listen, there are

(30:01):
elements related to music madeby black people in the way that
modern k pop sounds. First ofall, you cannot rap and have rap
or hip hop in your music and sayit's completely divorced from
black people. I'm sorry, likeyou'll just never be able to do
that. We made it. It was ourshit cool. If you're great at it

(30:24):
in your own language, that'sfine. Some rappers in like Japan
and China and like even SouthKorea, they have a, you know,
deep respect for the origins ofrap and hip hop that is present
when you have these rap lines inK Pop demon hunters. What would
have been nice is if the filmreally did start to look into

(30:48):
the way that songs areconstructed like that. But
again, you can't do that in likea 90 minute kids film, but it's
just interesting drawing thatconnection, right?

Robert Kuang (30:57):
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I like that you
set this up because, as apreface to the phenomenal
success of the K Pop demonhunter soundtrack, which should
reflect the immense popularityof these music genres that are
really spearheaded by blackculture and black lineage,
right, and Black Heritage. Solike, we can't ignore that. And
like within k pop, the groupsthat what we believe the groups

(31:22):
that this movie is referencingare also heavily inspired by R
and B, hip hop, rap, these aresome of the most popular K Pop
genres, which is why I dorespect the fact that it
included a little bit oftraditional Korean music,
particularly in the beginning. Ilove culturally specific music
and showing the history ofmusic. I wish more movies did

(31:44):
that, as it kind of did insinners. I'm gonna say it's
probably because of the factthat it has to be such a
commercial project that theycouldn't inject more just
straight up Korean culture intothe movie. And if there had been
more of that, maybe they couldhave shown other versions. But
if you're talking about K Pop,it is hip hop, rap, R and B pop.

(32:04):
These are, these are the majorgenres, and you can't ignore you
can't divorce them. Yeah, no,you can't. And we've been, we've
known about this for quite awhile, because these were like
that. We can find literal secondto third gen groups that made
music that sound exactly likeevery single song off of the
soundtrack. I love thatsoundtrack. I'm just saying you

(32:25):
can find, like, where they gotthe inspiration from within,
like, all the breadcrumbs of kpop. And you and I can do that
right off the bat. Yeah, it's alittle bit different hitting
with that experience thansomething sinners, which I've
never seen before. I guess.

Tara Edwards (32:38):
Yeah, I think K Pop Demon Hunters is like, very
introductory, if you've neverbeen into k pop, but also old
heads could enjoy the littlelike teases to things that they
were, that they, you know, grewup on, that they experienced
throughout the years of beinginto k pop, you know, LOVE ME

(33:00):
RIGHT by EXO is in the movie.Everybody knows that EXO was the
premier boy group, the the boygroup, the saja boys, is
literally based on members ofEXO and like Monster X and shiny
and those groups. And it waskind of annoying to see the way

(33:21):
that, unfortunately, theproliferation and like over
saturation of the market due toBTS that a lot of people assume,
like made these assumptions,that this is what K Pop is. So I
was thankful that the peoplemaking the film and making the
soundtrack and making thesesongs were calling out to what

(33:44):
really is representative of kpop, which is those groups from
second gen and third gen.

Robert Kuang (33:50):
There's a lot more noise music in modern k pop, and
they have branched out to just alot more electronic
experimentation, probably thanksto like Sophie, Charlie X, E, x.
So again, they're always takingin what's trending and what's
happening in the current moment,but the genres that they say
within, yeah, EXO, BTS, I'm sureeveryone people will always

(34:11):
think of BTS for better,

Tara Edwards (34:12):
fortunately or unfortunately, for better, for
worse, sick or poor, you know?

Robert Kuang (34:18):
Yeah. So, like, people will think of them no
matter what, if you talk about KPop, yeah. But black ink is kind
of referenced, I think, inhuntrix, in my opinion, oh

Tara Edwards (34:27):
yeah. The the modern girl group, like the
image of the modern girl groupis kind of black paint, for
better or for worse,

Robert Kuang (34:35):
anything that has the, you know, the girl crush
concept, which huntrix was,definitely more girl crush. It
automatically makes people K Popfans, I should say. Think of
groups like Blackpink, 21 ifyou're older,

Tara Edwards (34:48):
yeah, old heads, no, the girl crush concept was
not a thing until CL and themdid that. So

Robert Kuang (34:57):
the only thing that was distinctly not K Pop
because. Maybe for like year endholiday shows, is the duet
between the female and the malelead character. That's not very

Tara Edwards (35:08):
kind of arguably, yes. If you think early first,
first gen and second gen, yes,oh, what if you think third,
fourth and fifth Gen? Absolutelynot.

Robert Kuang (35:19):
There's just so little gender interaction mixed
these days. It's so police. Sothat number, I was like, that
felt like it was for, like, themovie fan source update. Because
I was like, that's not a thatwas just a music number.
Everything else was so k pop,like, including the variety of
shows they go on.

Tara Edwards (35:37):
Definitely that song was in service of the
musical plot and like, you know,exploring this kind of
relationship with the two maincharacters. Yeah, you would not
see such a thing happeningcurrent gen, but back in the
day, absolutely, though, therewas a lot more interactions back

(35:58):
in the day, like that whole likedispatch scandal of like meeting
and like having the secretshipwreck show up. I'm like,
That is only something thathappens in second gen. Now, if
you shipping doesn't happen,except for like that one. Jae
Hyun rose, a fan who, like is ontop of those edits everybody
else, if you if two idols aresuspected of dating. Both

(36:22):
fandoms are in a riot, upset,hate everything about

Robert Kuang (36:26):
it before you could do that and not have like,
an absolute Firestorm liketoday. Yeah, yeah. Do you
actually have a favorite songfrom K Pop demon hunters? You're
like, how should I phrase this?

Tara Edwards (36:41):
I mean, I think all okay, at risk of like,
sounding like a music snob,which, unfortunately, I kind of
am. I think a lot of these songsare the songs that trickle their
way through the industry and endup on like, B and C tier k pop
groups, albums, and this is notto say that they're horrible.

(37:04):
They're not horrible by anymeans. They're listenable.
They're fine. The vocalists andsongwriters did well. They're
just not. First of all, onething I have to say too is that
song golden pisses me off as ani fan. I'm sorry. I hate to be
that person, but like, there isno way I've

Robert Kuang (37:26):
as in the K pop group, for listeners who didn't
catch that, there's a go on.There's a group

Tara Edwards (37:30):
called Ive that's i v e, like I V as in vine E as
in Echo, has a song called I Am,and that song did not do super,
super well for them. Only fory'all to turn around and
literally make this sister songcalled Golden, and for it to

(37:53):
become the number one song onthe Billboard charts, is so
irritating.

Robert Kuang (38:01):
It's so similar too.

Tara Edwards (38:03):
It's literally the same song. Like, I tweeted this
into the Ethernet and then Ideleted it. But I'm just, I
still have this feeling that,like, do I think that Kakao
should sue Netflix? No, do Ithink that they are lucky that
they're not vengeful bitches,yes, because this could have

(38:26):
been messy as hell,

Robert Kuang (38:29):
you know what? Yeah, especially knowing the k
pop or slash music industry ingeneral, which is so like,
unbelievably cutthroat at times,it seems like K Pop Demon
Hunters has achieved a level ofsuccess so surprising to
everyone that now there's a lotof more people milking off of
it. I would say I've never seenso many idols do covers of a

(38:50):
song by a fictional group. It'svery meta in that way, if you
think about it, because I'veseen so many covers of these
numbers by like, real K Popidols. And yes, these are voiced
by people from that industry andmusicians and real artists and
stuff. There is something veryinteresting about the fact that
huntrix, this fictional group,is now currently competing with

(39:13):
new genes for the most number ofin Korean charts, what's called
a perfect all kill, which islike real time number one and
all of the major streamingcharts at the same time, I
believe. And the fact that thisis a, you know, from a movie,
not a real group, I hope they'remaking their bag, but I don't
know about that. I'll be honestwith you. And it's about to,
like in most perfect all killsever. It's about to get up

(39:36):
there, yes, for, for, forGolden. That's a lot of prestige
that I didn't see coming.Because, again, we were fans of
that song by Ive.

Tara Edwards (39:45):
Ive did their dance that they already know,
from I am to Golden withouthaving to change a single step,
because that's how similar thesongs are, moving on and talking
about the. Sort of societalimplications of what it means
that a fictional girl groupoutsold real life girl groups

(40:07):
everywhere is like not to be toowoke again, but it does say
something a about xenophobia inthe West, and how the tendency
to not accept the presentationof a girl group, especially if
majority of them are not white,and then be the fact that girl

(40:30):
groups, and just women ingeneral, are treated in the
music industry writ large, it'sfine for you guys to Like the
song golden, because it's afictional girl group and
nobody's you know, like, Why doyou like black? Pink? You're a
man.

Robert Kuang (40:47):
Listen, it is interesting that they the
protagonist of this movie is agirl group and facing off
against a boy group, because inreal life, there would be no
competition. Girl groups tend toget squashed by both, like, just
the backing of boy groups, butalso like the rabbit fans. Yes,
you know, and I'm not here tojust judge fans who like the boy
groups and the girl groups orwhatever that they like. If

(41:10):
you've been a K Pop fan longenough, you know that girl
groups rarely guess their justdesserts, except for maybe
twice. I'm counting one group,that's it,

Tara Edwards (41:20):
which shout out to twice because take now, to
answer your question, I thinktake down is the song I like the
most in the film, which is twicea song. So you know what shout
out to them. They have made itthrough an industry that would
have grilled them up and spitthem out by this period in their
careers. So I am so happy fortwice to have this in their bag,

(41:44):
and for that song to becharting, and for people to get
more interested in twice asmusic. Because if anybody
deserves it, it's Momo and thegirls,

Robert Kuang (41:52):
yeah, absolutely. And they're, like, the, probably
the only real life example thatcomes even close to the type of
treatment and fanfare thathuntrix, you know, gets in this,
like fictional world, butthey're also getting it in the
charts. I'm just, I think forme, I'm just like, I hope, I
hope it's making everyoneinvolved successful, I suppose,
you know, to the same level, if,like, a real group found this

(42:15):
level of success, what wouldhappen to their careers and
their lives? Because that's thelevel of success that this
fictional group is having. Ijust, I just hope people are
like, getting to, like, benefitfrom it. Who are real?

Tara Edwards (42:30):
Yeah, something that kind of makes me want to
segue back into the overalltheme of like, comparing and
contrasting. K Pop, demonhunters and sinners is this idea
of smoke and mirrors. Both filmstake what is otherwise an
extremely serious and horriblelike situations, and they create

(42:52):
these fantastical worlds aroundthem. There are times where you
see everything clearly for whatit is. For example, like I
mentioned, the scene in the carfrom sinners, we also have the
girl groups literally almostcoming apart in K Pop, demon
hunters because the lead singercan't sing, it will not be

(43:12):
accepted for, you know, physicalappearance. That's a real thing
that we see all the time in KPop, like where members and
people get removed ordisappeared, honestly, out of
groups because they don't fitthis like perfect image of what
they are expected to be. And Ithink what's interesting is that

(43:36):
both films use those fantasticalelements to create catharsis in
where, if it was a little bittoo realistic, things would have
been too dark, right? Like thatscene high, which I know a lot
of white people really, reallyfelt uncomfortable. I could tell
it was palpable in the audiencewhen smoke literally kills all

(43:57):
of the clan members that showup. You can tell that that scene
makes them uncomfortable.Admittedly, that's not realistic
in real life, cleanse would haveshown up, and smoke would have
absolutely been lynched andburned. So it's nice for both
films to take this extremelydark subject matter and give us

(44:19):
this catharsis, right, like youhave smoke getting this nice,
you know, beautiful death offinally being reunited with his
love and his child. And then youhave in K Pop demon hunters like
huntrix. Finally, everything isout in the open, and their fans
still accept them. And you know,they're able to come together

(44:40):
and express themselves and singthis like magical song. I think
catharsis is still, is stillbread and butter when it comes
to films like I still, andthat's why K Pop D Hunter is
this good movie, by the way, islike it still goes into that
catharsis, right? I want to feellike. Sometimes, sometimes we

(45:01):
need that, sometimes we needthat, especially in, you know,
dark ass, dystopian times where,you know, lynchings are no
longer i

Robert Kuang (45:13):
You are correct and ditto about sinners. I'll
start with that, because Italked to you about this, about
my experience feeling moved bywhat's the name Delta slim, yes,
his monolog in the car, and howit reminded me of my
grandfather. Whenever he triesto talk about the experiences he
went through, surviving theCultural Revolution and the war,

(45:34):
like he goes to a certain placethat reminds me of Delta slim,
where he starts humming, youknow, and he just kind of trails
off that reminded me so much ofmy grandfather, you know, and
seeing all of the all the men,quite frankly, try to process
the trauma. It was like it feltvery important to see that. It
just translated across cultures.For me, for k pop, demon

(45:55):
hunters, again, I felt that verylike multi CultI international
vibe that I don't always like.They've done that with things
that I liked, you know, likeMulan and I wasn't a huge fan of
it. The part that got me chillswas when she said, but we can
make a new honey. I didn'tnecessarily see that coming, and
it hit the number, did what itwas supposed to do. And that's

(46:16):
the other thing. Is, like,despite me saying, and maybe
we've been kind of critical of KPop demon hunters, that it's a
movie by committees. I thoughtthey did every bullet point that
they put on that committee boardreally well. The songs were well
written. The lyrics were reallygood, which I sometimes have a
problem with

Tara Edwards (46:37):
in K Pop 100%

Robert Kuang (46:39):
like they can do some of the silly ass lyrics
that they do in K Pop, theyactually had to move the plot
within the songwriting. And Iwas like, again, kudos. Is kind
of a mix between k pop andmusical theater, that way, where
there's like story happeningwithin the songs. Loved it. And
again, the final number, whenall the girls were coming
together, I'm a sap. I couldn'thelp it. I was like, Yeah, girl

(47:01):
power, because k pop is notalways like that, yeah, if
rarely

Tara Edwards (47:05):
Yeah. And honestly, I want to say that,
like cultural translationhappened to not necessarily for
me, but we do have a mutualfriend who loves K Pop demon
hunters, and she's a blackAmerican. And shout out to Mira.
Mira.

Robert Kuang (47:22):
Mira, Mira. Mira, who

Tara Edwards (47:25):
experienced that scene of but we can make a new
Han moon, and getting to expressherself like themselves, really
openly, without shame andwithout guilt, is something that
I think is very moving for a lotof people, across the board, you
had the callback to yourgrandfather trying to talk about

(47:47):
the cultural revolution. ForMira, it's like she's seeing her
childhood self finally get thecatharsis of being able to
express herself as an adultwithout shame or guilt that
comes from the oppressivefactors of both being a child in
a society that hates childrenand also, like, you know, just

(48:09):
being a woman, like being awoman in the public and
performing femininity and havingto just cover up everything all
the time, and finally, be free.Like, yeah, like I said,
catharsis, bread and butter. Andboth films nailed it. Yes,

Robert Kuang (48:28):
I would say the catharsis is all there. The post
credit scenes in sinners werereally good, in my opinion. And
again, there's something withsinners that I found to be very
meditative. You know what Imean? It's meditating on music,
the church, the Jim Crow South.And I can, like, feel it in the
film. So again, as like aspiritually minded person, that

(48:50):
movie really, really deeplyimpacted me. And also just as
like an American, I remember Iwas like, Wow, this made me,
like, nostalgic for some kind oflike the American spirit, yeah?
But, of course, it was capturedin a movie, yeah,

Tara Edwards (49:06):
yeah, yeah, not to reference Beyonce again, but
like something that I've beenthinking a lot about since the
Beyonce is an Americanpropagandist discourse. Is that,
like there's a lot of tensionbetween black Americans and the

(49:28):
country they've built that isheavily present in centers,
right, while it is both acountry that has hated and tried
to kill and killed and abusedand traumatized over and over
again. There are still those,like American ideals that have
always been present, right? Likethe ideology of freedom. It's

(49:52):
it's like that post creditscene, he asked him, that was
the best day of our lives. Thiswas the last time we truly felt
free. That. That's insane and,like, so meditative. Yes, it's

Robert Kuang (50:06):
like me. That's me metaphorically putting a knife
into my

Tara Edwards (50:10):
God. Like, why would you say that?

Robert Kuang (50:15):
Can I tell you really quickly I have to comment
and just put into the episode.How many cultural consultants
Ryan Cooper used in centers, atleast according to like, what
like the research, we can findpublished articles, or at least
seven cultural consultants,including he had like
consultants for twins, which Ididn't even think about as like,

(50:36):
something you should thinkabout, but I'm just like, I bet
you that was ripped from like,what it's like, because, you
know, I hear my, my partner,Aries a twin, and I hear them
talk about that bond like that.That's something that you can
only kind of see from theoutside, unless you're inside
that, yeah, you know, it's, it'slike, I really respect him for
taking everything seriously.Yeah, he, he took everything

(50:59):
seriously.

Tara Edwards (51:00):
Yeah. I think actually, you know, even though
there are unrealistic elementsin K Pop demon hunters, like boy
groups versus girl groups, andlike the joint signing and the
shipping and all of that, I dothink that both films were
realistic representations. Andyou could tell that the people
actually knew what they weretalking about. They knew the

(51:23):
history. They knew did thenecessary research. Like it
wasn't just, you know,hodgepodge thrown together, like
the historical references in KPop, demon hunters to actual
gods. I forget Derp, Derpy, thetiger is like, based on an

(51:43):
actual, like, an actual Korean

Robert Kuang (51:46):
kind of like a figure that's common in like, a
Korean painting style,traditional Korean painting
style, both the crow and Derpy,I think, represent different
aspects, and there are lots ofsymbolism to it, which, again,
if You're a Korean watching thismovie, I would bet you'd be so
excited. I've I saw a lot ofpeople dissect that movie in

(52:07):
ways that maybe we can't whereit's like the costume design,
everyone's those decorations andornaments and stuff. They all
had different types that meantdifferent things to symbolize
how different they are aspeople. I just really appreciate
when a movie has that for thepeople that can pick up on that.
But I do appreciate that. Ibelieve you can enjoy both

(52:30):
movies without necessarily beinglike knowing every single easter
egg, you know what I mean, andlook up everything, you can just
enjoy them

Tara Edwards (52:36):
well. I mean, it's been proven by the popularity
and success of both films atthis point, because like K Pop
demon hunters, even though I'mstill like Netflix, nobody can
really know what your streamingnumbers are, because they're
proprietary data, so you couldbe yapping, but apparently, K

(52:57):
Pop Demon Hunters is their moststreamed film ever, the songs
are topping all of these chartsacross the globe. They're
thinking about releasing it intheaters. You have the
commercial success of sinners.And I think both films are still
very much culturally situated,even though obviously sinners is

(53:20):
much more delicate in itsapproach. There are still
elements that are distinctly,uniquely Korean, in K Pop demon
hunters, that really do lenditself to making it a bit more
universal, like I said at thebeginning about how the more
specific you are.

Robert Kuang (53:37):
Maybe we just need another proof, like we have over
and over again that there can becommercial success with, like a
female led movie, which we needto debate every year it seems
like, or an animated movie canbe successful. Or a movie with
music in it, which some peopleOh yeah,

Tara Edwards (53:58):
Bobby drag queen doing those interviews with
people who hate musicals, uh,very peak comedy on tick tock,
but also like it's proof of whatyou're saying and what we've
both been saying forever. Itfeels like we've been saying
this since we were in college,which was over 10 years ago,

(54:20):
which is that there is no reasonto not make diverse films, other
than just discrimination. Youjust don't want to right like
you'll never, you'll never beable to argue that it's not
going to be successful and thatpeople won't watch it. We have a
friend who is literally halfJapanese and half white. Who

(54:41):
loves Madea and Tyler Perrymovies? So much, so much.

Robert Kuang (54:48):
I do people love Disney's Mulan because there was
a black dragon in it.

Tara Edwards (54:53):
True. Do

Robert Kuang (54:55):
you know why I did not like the other ones? Because
there was not a black dragon in.It okay,

Tara Edwards (55:02):
because Eddie Murphy was not the dragon in

Robert Kuang (55:06):
it. Yeah, I don't know who made that casting
decision, but absolutely effingbrilliant. And lots of Chinese
people loved it, although he didhave mixed receptions and all of
that. But I just but even then,I want those conversations to be
stirred up. I want there to bemore movies that represent
different parts of the world,different parts of history,
different communities andcultures and these, these two

(55:28):
movies, hopefully are likecommercially successful enough
that we can move the Overtonwindow a little bit more towards
that, and not just throw out deior what have you all together,
especially if people love money,

Tara Edwards (55:41):
you know what? I just realized what the true
connection between K Pop, demonhunters and sinners is black
Americans and Asians.

Robert Kuang (55:52):
Oh, my God. Okay, we didn't even touch on this,
but I love that they introduced,like the history of Chinese
immigrants in the south, andlike, the way Ryan Coogler paid
so much honor and respectcultural consultants for that,
because that's a part of Chinesehistory. That's like, there's
not a lot of like material aboutthat, because, you know, it's

(56:15):
about the Chinese Americancommunity, which is even
smaller. And then, of course,the discourse was, like, so
generic and black and

Tara Edwards (56:24):
white, yeah, which, which. Again, I just
always go back to no morediscourse. I'm simply correct.

Robert Kuang (56:32):
Why, like, Ryan put so much thought and care
into and people are just like,This is why we can't trust
anybody. I was like, I don't,

Tara Edwards (56:39):
and that was not and even in interviews, Ryan's
like, I don't know why peopleare, like, zeroing in on this
and interpreting this likeinteraction this way, because
that is not what I was saying.And I think also, ultimately,
sinners is about like, themulticultural connection in a

(57:02):
really deep and empathetic way.It's about all of those
cultures, like Native Americans,what is, what is the term for
like native people, like Aztecs,or like, you know, like people
from South America, likeindigenous, indigenous South
Americans, and like Africanculture and Chinese culture, and

(57:23):
like Irish culture, Irishculture, all of it is connected
and honored on a deeplyempathetic level. And he's

Robert Kuang (57:33):
even empathetic to the vampire, the KKK people,
basically like even the two, thefamily, the couple that he
turned in the very beginning,they were like fleshed out
characters. They weren't justlike a, you know, basically a
stupid stereotype. You know whatI mean. These are people who
live during that time, likethat, he even took those

(57:55):
characters seriously. I don'tknow if people would agree, but

Tara Edwards (57:58):
well, you know, no more discourse. We're so hard,
but like, ultimately, I thinkboth films really just like in a
generic way, but not so genericjust are proof that, like in a
world of globalization, we allwant to be connected to each

(58:22):
other, and we want to haverespect and interest in each
other's cultures. And it's notall like, super negative,
everyone trying to extractwealth and interest from each
other, like, I think it is quitepositive from both films,
honestly,

Robert Kuang (58:41):
yes, and when you talk about the catharsis, these
are the moments in both movieswhere they depict people coming
together, sometimes without evenknowing maybe the full context
of why they need each other. Butboth movies hinge on the fact
that these are stories aboutpeople who wound up or have to
come together or choose to cometogether, and what happens after

(59:04):
they choose to come together.And there are some super, super
moving parts about that, bothjust the pain and struggle of
what that means and thesacrifice maybe it took to
actually be that. And also, likeI believe, they both have
hopeful messages about thefuture the way we think about
community, culture, crosscultural exchange, even

(59:25):
something like, like, freedom.You know what I mean? Like
people were saying, like, thosemusical moments were people
really coming together overtheir experience of freedom? So
I just, I will say that isprobably the sappiest read I
have of that and the power ofmusic. Yeah, honestly,

Tara Edwards (59:42):
you know, there are a lot more similarities in
these films than meets the eye.Because really, there is, like a
character study here betweenpreacher boy and Rumi, honestly,
if you really think about

Robert Kuang (59:55):
it. So yes, my complaint about the movie is
they clearly cut out some parts,right? That was. Complaint where
it was like there were clearlylike bread crumbs they left to
explore the different types ofdemons what happened with Rumi's
mom that they clearly justdeliberately chose not to
address in this movie. I don'tknow why I would have loved to
see it. It would have beeninteresting and like complex, I

(01:00:18):
believe. But you know what earworms with a killer soundtrack
for a first movie. I get it aslike a strategy, yes, people who
work out are discovering K Pop.I'm like, Yes, welcome. Yes,
it's great.

Tara Edwards (01:00:29):
Most K Pop is, turns out over 180 BPM

Robert Kuang (01:00:38):
because people didn't know.

Tara Edwards (01:00:41):
It's almost like most pop music is in that time
signature.

Robert Kuang (01:00:46):
Oh, yeah. My favorite was seeing these beefy
bros being like, Bro, why am Ilistening to the K Pop demon
hunter soundtrack? I was like,because it's, it's good
for workout, like, it's reallygood for that. Yeah, it's, it's
crazy. Yeah,
any other like tidbits or thingsyou want to, like, shout out or
like, point to. With these twomovies, there's so much to
frankly talk about with both ofthem.

Tara Edwards (01:01:07):
The Criterion Collection better have like, two
hours of behind the scenes.Yeah, fourth center, it's
because, I bet he has it. Thereis, like, so many, like,
interviews with different castand crew members that are just,
you know, out there in YouTube,and it's like all of the

(01:01:28):
consultants you've mentioned,but also like the the set
designs and the hair, and thedecisions about hair, and like
the differences between and thethe way the twins dressed, and
how that influenced, like, theperception of how they came
across on on screen. It's like,ultimately, what I would have

(01:01:52):
you could talk about sinnersforever, and I could talk about
K Pop, demon hunters forever,with my own historical lens of,
like, talking about the originsof k pop, the Hollywood wave,
how it led to this moment,because that is a fucking wild
ride. If I could stream

Robert Kuang (01:02:09):
music is so interesting, and we both would
love because there's a lot of,like, occupied military,
occupied forces, influencing howmusic trends pick up all over
the world as well. And Koreadefinitely had that as well as
Japan. Why do you think we likeblues and jazz? You know, it's

Tara Edwards (01:02:24):
like, yeah. It's like, you know, I know the girls
get ready to like shit on blackAmerican GIs presence in South
Korea, but I'm like, theybrought Hip Hop mixtapes with
them, and now rap isn't all yourfavorite songs and and fried
chicken and fried chicken.

Robert Kuang (01:02:44):
I know that's another Yeah, no discourse. No
more

Tara Edwards (01:02:48):
discourse. We're simply correct. But I guess
ultimately what I have to say isthat, like, while I obviously
have a preference of one filmover the other and think one is
objectively better toexperience. I do think both of
these films are value, valuablecultural products, and I think
they are both worthinvestigating, thinking about

(01:03:11):
and talking about,

Robert Kuang (01:03:12):
yes and their creative teams all had, like, a
very specific, intentional pointof view, because we're both
artists. I really love that.Centers is really Ryan Coogler
point of view. His artist dealreally reflects that it's very
artist forward with WarnerBrothers, it's basically unheard
of, and I don't know. I hopepeople are incentivized in

(01:03:33):
Hollywood to do this more goingforward, but we will see. Yeah,
I would say k pop Demon Huntersis a movie I can finally watch
with like, if I want to getpeople into k pop, if I'm at a
party, we need to just havesomething on that people will
find fun and silly sinners. Issomething I will watch by myself
to cry about how much I need toheal. You know, it's very
different.

Tara Edwards (01:03:53):
Last time I saw the sun, the last time I saw my
brother,

Robert Kuang (01:03:57):
in case, if I ever need to remind myself of like
the power of music. I wouldwatch sinners specifically to
see the character of Sammy,right, for example. But yeah,
both really good movies, bothunderstandably being compared
and contrasted, and both, like,super mega successful, which is
like kind of a sigh of reliefthese days, I guess, for

(01:04:18):
projects like this.

Tara Edwards (01:04:18):
So yeah, you know, I think both films are important
too, because pop culturestudies, which shout out to your
partner, and media studies oftenreinforce slash, reveal lots of
things about, you know, societyat little points in time. And I
think the fact that two thesetwo films that seem to be so

(01:04:41):
different to each other arepopular at the same time.
Reveals a lot about our desiresas a society to have connection,
right?

Robert Kuang (01:04:51):
Yeah, absolutely, we're sort of in a there's, I
see so many comments onlinewhere it's like the people yearn
for community. It's like a meme,yes? Except. Not really, because
we've become so, like, dividedand gotten into our own niche
subgroups that I saw somearticle that's like people are
yearning for, like, the momentthat everyone lives with, like a

(01:05:12):
Super Bowl, like, like seeingthe Beatles, you know, or
whatever, televised, just like acultural moment like that. We
don't have that anymore, becauseeveryone's so off in their own
world. But I would say havingmore projects and things like
this produced definitely couldincrease the possibility of us
coming

Tara Edwards (01:05:30):
together. Yes, they definitely create cultural
moments. Yes, you

Robert Kuang (01:05:35):
know, I'm sure I would be hearing all those songs
from K Pop demon hunters for thenext few months, because the
kiddos will not let it go. Soenjoy. All right. Thank you so
much, Chara for yapping with meyesterday.

Tara Edwards (01:05:49):
As the president of Yap reveal, I am always ready
to take on my role.

Robert Kuang (01:05:54):
Whenever I have something where I need to talk
about it, I always come to youto be like I need to unpack my
brain. Let's do this so untilnext time you.