May 7, 2025 • 31 mins
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In this inspiring episode of the Super Entrepreneurs Podcast, host Shahid Durrani sits down with Robert Hanna—founder of KC Partners and host of the Legal Speaking Podcast. Rob shares how he turned his grandfather’s legacy into a global force in legal talent solutions. From innovative podcasting strategies to groundbreaking ideas in legal technology, Rob reveals how he built a platform that empowers legal professionals, champions mental health, and promotes diversity in a traditionally rigid industry.
Whether you're an entrepreneur, podcaster, or visionary in your space, this episode will show you how authenticity, high energy, and a commitment to impact can create exponential success.
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Chapters:
02:15 The Power of Energy in Success
03:22 Shifting Focus Internally
05:14 The Importance of Big Thinkers
05:51 Inspiration Behind the Legal Speaking Podcast
09:35 The Value of Podcasting in Business
17:21 Innovative Strategies for Growth
27:15 Mental Health and Diversity in Law
30:11 Final Thoughts and Farewell
Pullout Quotes:
- “The magic you're looking for is in the work you're avoiding.”
- “Collaboration is domination—the more you give, the more you grow.”
- “Don’t measure just ROI—consider the cost of inaction.”
- “I wanted to build a traceable legacy, not just for clients—but for my daughter.”
- “If it’s meant to be, it’s up to me.”
6. Social:
Website: https://www.kcpartners.co.uk
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roberthanna/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rob_law_kc
Facebook: https://www.fa
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
look, collaboration is domination.
So the more people that youcan collaborate with, the more
impact you can do to amplify.
(00:26):
Welcome back to SuperEntrepreneurs Podcast.
I'm your host, Shahid Durrani, theshow where we dive into the minds
of high performing entrepreneurs,innovators, and world class leaders.
If you're someone who's always lookingto grow, push limits, think and.
Do bigger.
(00:46):
You're in the right place.
Today we have Robert Hanna.
Rob is the founder and managingdirector of KC Partners, a global
leader in legal talent solutions.
He's also the host of the AcclaimedLegal Speaking podcast where he
explores the dynamic world of lawwith industry leaders and innovators.
(01:09):
Rob is.
Also deeply committed to advancingmental health awareness, diversity and
inclusion within the legal profession.
He gets his inspiration fromhis grandfather's legacy as the
pioneering lawyer in the 1950s.
Rob, it's a pleasure to haveyou on the show, my friend.
(01:31):
Right back at you.
I'm a big fan of the show and reallyappreciate the the warm introduction and
even how we're kicking the tires off air.
And I think that's thebeauty of podcasting, right?
You get to really connect withpeople and yeah, I love it.
Love your energy, love your show.
Pleasure to be here.
Oh yeah, same here.
It was great.
Right off the bat, when you meet someoneright before the recording, you just
know it's gonna be a phenomenal episode.
(01:51):
The energy speaks so much louderthan the words can ever, so yeah.
I'm grateful to have you on the showand see how we can add value here.
Yeah.
Ab absolutely.
And I'm very much in your hands,but I always say everything is
energy, I think if you can puteverything into it Yeah, same here.
And it's reciprocated and I thinkthat's really been, we'll probably
touch into entrepreneurshipand all of that good stuff.
(02:11):
I think it's the energy that reallyis almost super in some respects.
Yeah.
And so do you find, are you aware thatdepending on your energy levels throughout
your career, throughout your life,you're a young guy, but I'm just saying
throughout your career, did you notice.
As your energy levels elevated, yoursuccess elevated, or did you notice a
(02:33):
connection between how you felt, how youwere energized, and what you were doing?
Yeah.
I think now as I am, late thirties, onething I have noticed is I. I need to put
more in to keep the energy levels thatI had when I was in my sort of early
career of my twenties and building andstarting businesses, et cetera, et cetera.
But it's now, as of today,coming onto this podcast.
(02:55):
My, my energy levels are the same, butI'm making sure that I'm doing the run.
I'm looking after myself.
I'm putting all the work in toensure that I can keep those
energy levels nice and high.
And the other thing I always say, you've.
Be that mentors, be that familypeople that you look up to who can
coach, teach bring good energy away.
That's super helped.
So I learned quite early on into myjourney of business that I wanna be
(03:16):
around a lot more radiators than peoplethat necessarily drain your energy.
So yeah, that's beensuper important to me.
Cool.
Yeah.
For me, I shifted that all around.
What you're saying, I completelyagree with, because your
environment has a lot to do withthe type of energy that you hold.
Because they influence you, yeah.
But what I did, and the people thatwe work with, what we do is we shift
(03:38):
that focus from outside to internally.
So when we shift the focusinternally, we only concentrate
on the energy levels within.
So we amplify the feelings, thethoughts, the feelings, and we
amplify how we feel in our body.
In moment by moment basis throughoutthe day, we practice it like a sport.
(03:59):
And then what we do is thenwe interact with others.
Not having them allow them to havean impact on my emotional state,
but respecting and dealing with themjust from a gap, if that makes sense.
Now, things can become sometimes,chaotic, but you're just step away
and you're dealing with life from thatgap and it just makes everything more
(04:19):
easier because now you're a beaconfor goodness because you just feel
phenomenal and then you experience thatphenomenal around you inexperiences.
'cause you start seeing thecircumstances, situations, they
start shifting to match that energy
yeah, and I think it's almost settingand protecting your boundaries.
And I mentioned something very early on,it's have a concrete mindset and so the
(04:42):
more con, like to you're saying settingthat distance, setting that sort of, that
for me is like what I call a concretemindset in terms of I'm not prepared to
let these sort of, maybe neg because everyidea and we're saying off air as well.
One crazy idea away from avery successful business.
A very successful business.
The one that we were just talking about.
Yeah.
The one that we're not gonna sharethat's highly under NDI from both of us.
(05:02):
Then yeah,
I usually share everything, but Ibe on a respect that one was because
you're in the legal world, I wanna
be very careful.
Yeah.
I've already got the word NDA in there.
What am I talking about?
But no, I think, I'm a bigbeliever in be around big thinkers.
Different thinkers, yeah.
Innovators, because most peoplewill think your ideas suck.
And if you look at any breakthroughtechnology, you look at any breakthrough
(05:24):
business, logically they don't makesense, but they make sense to the
people that, have these big ideasand visions and carry it through.
So yeah, I'm a big advocate for ifyou'll get around a lot of people
that say those ideas aren't right,those aren't ideas are right.
Don't do that.
Never do that.
Never do that.
Yeah.
Maybe some of them might be right, butyou might wanna also go in a room where
certain people have an open mind to.
Old on a.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(05:45):
I'm also impressed how you'retrailblazing the podcasting world when
it comes to legal professions, yeah.
Can you share what inspiredyou to start that podcast?
It's a, it's very dear to me whatI did and this pivot I did during
covid, but I just wondering ifthere's a story behind your podcast.
Yeah.
And if you'll just humor me for amoment just to put some context.
(06:07):
You very kindly gave a, anoverview at the beginning.
I guess why I do all of this,have a podcast, this, that and the
other, is it does go back to my lategrandfather as you referenced there.
Okay.
And I'll just share a very quick story.
Many years ago when I was a young kid, Iwent to his house and he would've been 10,
15 years post-retirement at this stage.
So he'd ran his law firm, retired,exited and I, every year I'd go and
(06:29):
there'd be more and more Christmas cardsdelivered to his house, and I'd say
to my grandfather at the time, wow, Ididn't realize you had that many friends.
And he would say, they're not all friends.
And I said who's sendingyou Christmas cards?
He said.
Clients.
And I was like, but youretired 15 years ago.
And he says, yes, but these are clientsthanking me for the work that I've
done and the generations beneath them.
Children that have been grateful forthe work that my firm did, updating
(06:51):
me on when they're having children,grandchildren, all the amazing work
that the firm did for them and helpedthem throughout their journeys.
And that really stuck with me.
And that was in an offline world.
And I knew that one day I wanted to setup some entrepreneurial, I had wanted
to carry on that entrepreneurial flareand indeed carry that legacy in legal.
And so 2016 I set up alegal recruiting business.
(07:12):
But I had know very early on thatbeing an early entrance and new
entrance into that market, I neededto do something which was different,
which was new, which was alternative.
So we became the first UKlegal recruiting podcast.
Okay, so we launched that veryearly, late 2018 because people
are like, what's a podcast?
What is this like?
Particularly over here, we're alwaysbehind the US anyway, and Canada.
(07:33):
It was nice to nice to be earlyto something and I use that as
a thought leadership tool tobusiness develop, to get out there.
But also principally because I have amission, which we call is to inspire
legal minds and transform legal futures.
I'm leaving a digitallegacy, A traceable legacy.
Yes.
So my daughter one day wants togo and see what dad did when he
was on sha, he's great podcast.
(07:54):
Or when he was doing this, when I wascollaborating with Gary Vaynerchuk on
a LinkedIn Live or whatever it mighthave been that I was doing, that she
can go and reference that and it'sthere because that's the only thing
that I can't at the moment is it isonly in my mind from those memories.
But I can't go and search anything.
It's in an offline world.
My purpose is linked back tocontinue that legacy, to do well, to
influence and inspire people in thelegal community, but in a forward,
(08:16):
innovative, different fashion.
So we were the first legal show to doWeb3, to look at some creator coins to, go
into Discord, to gamify the show, to bringCarol Baskin from Tiger King on at the
time when Netflix was the most tiger Kingwas the most watched show in the world,
and link that to the legal audience.
So we're always pushing boundaries,doing interesting things, but
that's really the wise, becauseI wanna carry that legacy on in.
(08:40):
And just beyond your family.
Beyond your kids, even generations.
Yeah.
Great.
Grandkids, right?
They're gonna be also looking at thisand also people that are out there
part of the show, you would just evolvewith them as generations progress
because with ai who really knows ifthis will ever end, 'cause AI is going
(09:01):
to, become more and more intelligent.
So even, when we pass on, who knows?
What will happen.
I'm not saying the end result, butI'm just saying that there might be
a potential where we live on to addvalue in a more artificial way that
still gives a good punch or good value.
Punch to people.
(09:22):
But it, because it's evolving, it'sgetting, it's understanding it way better.
It's becoming more intelligent.
It's providing more valuewhere it's needed at that time.
'cause everything can shift in time.
So we don't know where this is gonna go.
And I'm very similar to you withthis show, I struggle so much in
business, and I see so many peoplevery frustrated, especially people that.
(09:43):
Go into business from nine to five.
They were thinking that it's somethingglamorous and they, and I was the
same way, thought it would be easy.
And I was working double thetime that I did at a job.
And I, and there's a lot of people outthere like that, that don't realize
it's the internal that needs toshift to make the outside difference.
So that's why trying tobring that voice out.
But on top of that, my kids.
(10:06):
Because with kids, it's just,it's different relationships with
kids, parents, like you can try tocoach them, but say, dad, or blah,
blah there's, you know what I mean?
It's oh, again, you'regonna say that again.
It's different when people want help.
When they ask for help it'scompletely different, but
later on, ask kids to mature.
They start.
Grabbing that, that internal valuethey have for their parent and what
(10:28):
they did, and I'm hoping you know,the content's gonna be out there,
I'm hoping they're gonna watch it andgain some knowledge to what they need
to do, wisdom, what they need to dointernally from all these wonderful
people all over the world, sharingtheir vision, sharing their message
to help them make it, create a better.
Comfortable life because everythingon the outside is gonna be chaotic,
(10:50):
but we need to be more stable within.
And that's what I'm hoping with this show.
Yeah.
And I think you're doing a tremendousjob with the guests that you're bringing
on and the way that you are obviously,creating huge reach and, that's one
of the beautiful things of podcasting.
And if I go back to my journey to thequestion you said there was a huge.
COI, which I call everyonethink focuses on ROI, which is
obviously return on investment.
(11:11):
But, cost of inaction I thinkis so important to consider.
And cost of inaction good.
There would've been a real cost,like we wouldn't starting the
podcast to be as a feeder to mylegal recruiting business, which now.
Has helped in terms of candidatescome to us, clients come to us, we
can engage, we can build community.
But then it's moved into, now it's alegal media, like probably of your show.
(11:31):
You have sponsors, you have, we'relucky that we started from in a room.
Nobody listening to us being top1% in the world we're sponsored
by a $3 billion, the world'slargest legal tech company in Clio.
And we've retained that relationship.
Love it.
20 20, 21, through to now I investin legal tech businesses, and so
none of that would've happened.
None of these opportunities.
LinkedIn, top Voice, helpingLinkedIn with product rollouts,
(11:52):
getting into businesses, fast growthbusinesses, setting up the table.
None of that would've happenedif I'd have focused on the ROI.
I focused on there's a real opportunity.
Yes.
And I don't want that COI to go missing.
Yeah.
So anyone sat there, particularlywhen you talk about ai,
because none of us can predict.
I think it's, I think it's crazy if anyonethinks they can look into a crystal ball
because AI is already, when you get superintelligence, they're already gonna be.
(12:13):
Bigger and better than the human brain.
So no one living on this planetcan actually currently tell
you what it's gonna look like.
We can have educated guests andopinions, and of course that's a scary
thought, particularly someone you wouldbringing children into this world.
But you've gotta think about it.
If you're thinking about a business nowand it's a crazy idea in your head, I
encourage you to get in a room wherewe're around people that will actually
flesh out that idea more because we'reliving in a world of a value pyramid.
(12:35):
With ai.
So technology is coming in.
So imagine technology iscoming through the pyramid.
So you look at a lot of things,let's use legal as an example.
The world that I'm in, I recruit fortechnology, is coming in that can do
basic level research that can do firstlevel drafting with generative AI now.
So unless you are as a lawyeror whatever profession you are,
doctor, accountant, unless youare moving your value proposition.
(12:58):
This pyramid, then you do run the riskof potentially AI taking over or indeed
adapting and reshaping that role.
So you've gotta ensure when you're lookingat these crazy ideas that I encourage
everyone to think about that it'sgonna be ahead of this kind of pyramid
that I see and the way I describe it.
I really like the cost of inaction.
(13:18):
COIs is amazing.
And what we do when you add value toothers is you're participating in a
law that the, Emerson called the lawof laws, the law of cause and effect.
Yep.
When you focus on adding value,when you focus on doing good
for others, automatically.
As a side effect, goodness comes your way.
(13:38):
I know a lot of people don't believethis, but man, if you just practice
it, if you just give it a shot, ifpeople are genuinely go that route and
we focus on others, ultimately we see.
That coming not from that person.
You don't really expect it from thatperson, but it comes from various areas
(14:00):
and the partnerships that you made and thespots are so amazing, and the, I didn't
really hustle to go and find, global.
I. PR agencies and firms towork with us and all that.
I didn't, it just came . I'm not tryingto see it's how many views I'm gonna
get, how many downloads I'm gonna get.
I'm just doing my best.
What we could do is take somethingfrom you, give it to the people
(14:21):
so we can impact together.
We could impact a life,even if we impact one life.
Hey, that's good, man.
Good day.
It's amazing.
And look, collaboration is domination.
So the more people that youcan collaborate with, the more
impact you can do to amplify.
And what you are doing with and similarto me is, you're trying to be authentic.
And, you shouldn't try.
We are being authentic.
(14:41):
We are what we are.
And that's where people, that'swhere you can build trust and
you can build relationships.
Yeah.
And you can, we're no longer in this,friends of mine describe it as b2B, B2C.
It's no longer that it's H to hit's human to human connection.
Yeah.
It's like how can we increasethat human connection?
Yes.
And love it.
Yeah.
I think it's really important that peopleunderstand that don't just be straight
out for what's the immediate win for me?
(15:02):
Put good things out to the worldand you will attract your tribe.
And you can speak to that.
Yeah, I can speak to that.
And, and I can tell you the other thingthat's really important luckily enough,
I've been in sales and deals and you cando millions of pounds of deals and all
of this great stuff, but the intrinsicvalue you get from saying, Hey, I just
listened to that piece of podcast, Rob.
You did, and that helped me get that pieceof wisdom, that got a job application.
(15:22):
That for me is like the intrinsicvalue you get from building
community, putting things out thereis, it's just good for the soul.
And that's something to me.
Yeah, it is.
And you look up to the legacy piece andyou think that's, I'm doing the job.
I'm doing the job.
Yes.
Of course you need to make surethat whatever you're doing in
business, if you're for profit,you need to get the numbers right.
But I tell you, once you getto a stage in business that
intrinsic value is a worth tenfold.
(15:44):
Yeah.
Oh man, we can, I love this.
Because I just, another idea justcame to mind about our idea that
we talked about in the beginning.
So when you're speaking I'm sorry if Iprobably missed some of it because my
mind went an idea, you never wanna dothat right before you record a podcast.
Yeah.
With a phenomenal idea.
But anyway, a unicorn idea.
(16:06):
But hey, you don't wanna, yeah.
It just hits you, right?
The ideas keep coming afterwards.
It's like you just.
Tapped into a connection of some source.
Yeah.
That keeps downloading information.
But no, it's phenomenal.
I'm grateful to met you, man, and someof my most incredible relationships
I'm building is through this podcastall over the world and genuine,
it's what can I do for you, kind ofattitude and is I'm so grateful to
(16:30):
attract people like you into my life.
And I just wanted to share share athank you with you right to that we
met and how we met and how you cameon this show and everything is just.
Those things that have happened,dots that have been connected
to make this happen right now.
But I'm just grateful overall for thisopportunity especially for what you're
(16:50):
doing for other people because, the heartto heart is so important that we need
more of it and we're seeing more of it.
Especially since Covid is,there's a lot more focus from,
the macho to more to love.
And the love is.
A foundational energy thatis phenomenally powerful.
And once you tap into it, once yourheart is filled with it and you just,
(17:14):
good things just keep happening.
And this is another example.
But another question I havefor you, can you share some.
Innovative strategies that you haveimplemented that helped you grow
the firm in this competitive market?
Yeah, I think let's use the podcast asso that the originally the podcast that
I started was you imagine I'm I didn'tcome from a legal recruiting background.
(17:38):
I came from.
Procurement energy supply chain.
So I had about 10 years and Iwas a director in other business.
But remember, go back to my why.
I wanted to do something in legal.
So I got to the stage where I was likeI wanna set up a legal business and use
my talent and skills, which at the timewas that talent solutions recruiting.
And I knew very early on thatI can't compete and ring up
a partner of a law firm or anowner of a law firm and say, hey.
(18:01):
I am I can help your legal recruitmentbecause they're like we've been using
the guys down the road for 15 years.
They've placed the last100 people with us.
We've got great terms.
They're amazing.
We know them.
We trust them.
We like them.
They're everything we ever wanted.
You've just started, why shouldwe speak to you and Right.
That's an extreme example, butthat's where the reality is, right?
And so I was thinking, what could I dodifferently in the early late twenties,
(18:23):
like I said, in terms of that sort of2017, thinking about things 2018 started
and it was like why don't I switchnarrative rather than calling these
people and saying, can you help me?
Why don't I ring them?
And by the way, legal is verybehind in terms of 'cause regulated.
There's risk, lawyers jumping onpodcasts way back when it's not
quite as you know now, it's obviouslya lot more common, but back then
there was still a what's a podcast?
(18:44):
What do I need to.
I would rather them reach out to'em, I'd say, Hey I'd love to I'd
like to switch up the way thatyou go about talent attraction.
And I'd like to do this with just 20minutes of your time at my office with
coffee and biscuits where I'll record20 minutes asking everything about you.
Your show I mean your practice, whyyou are great to work for, your career
(19:06):
journey, the challenges, the opportunitiesand you'll have a wonderful experience.
I just need 20 minutes of your timeat my office, which is only two
minutes away, around the corner.
And through that 20 minutes, I'll producesix months worth of content for you
that you can pass on to your marketingteam for free in the form of blog
posts, short form videos SEO compliant.
Blogs, articles shorts for YouTube,TikTok, Instagram, et cetera, et cetera,
(19:30):
that will reach out exponentially, whichis gonna work way better than your current
marketing strategy from your law firm.
And I'll also create some bespoke jobdescriptions or talent attractions,
descriptions that are different andalternative that'll make your opportunity
as and when you are hiring or if you'retalent pooling over your competitors that
are offering the same money, the sameopportunity as you with a similar clients.
(19:52):
This is gonna help you stand out.
How does that sound to you?
So it's, oh, by the way, I'm gonnaput your voice in six and a half
thousand cities around the world.
A podcast, as gets, lets go.
Exponential reach.
Lets it's very hard to say no go away.
Yeah, it's like this is called likea really powerful offer, right?
Yeah.
It's a loaded, it's it'sa triple loaded value add.
And then they don't really know atthis point, so they come and they
(20:13):
do this, we do this amazing thing,and then we just do some follow ups.
And by the way, if you're everlooking, and then of course,
we're top of mind, right?
We're top of mind for when they're hiring.
We've given them all of this great stuff.
It's a great entry point.
So I think that was the most.
Innovative business developmentstrategy of all time.
And then you come in with even, and thenwhen you're like how do you get it better?
Let's go and get the world's bestlegal technology company that's on
(20:35):
an aggressive growth drive to thengo and business develop further.
So when we're talking to partners andmore podcasts come about, what's our USP?
We've got exponential reach now.
Because we are partnering with the world'sbest legal tech company and we've got an
overarching bigger mission we're helpingwhen it comes to diversity, equity
inclusion, which your law firm clearlystates that you are passionate about.
We're helping when itcomes to mental health.
(20:57):
We're also helping with the almostmulti it is a multi-billion dollar
access to justice gap issue wherelegal technology can reduce that.
For good access to justice.
So people who can't affordlegal services get the work.
So again, you're coming in with value add.
When podcasts become it's just anotherpodcast with different angles, different
things, different value, pro proposition.
So when that partner in law firm isn'tjust another partner on a show, they're
(21:20):
part of a community that's adding valueto broader prospect part to a. Bigger
reach, bigger opportunity, then you getthe world's best law firm owners on.
Then you get certain people comingon and all of these amazing things.
But yeah, it's thinking strategically.
It's putting yourselves in the shoes ofthe people that you're trying to approach.
So that's probably been our mostinnovative business development strategy
where we're so early out the gate andnow we welcome competitor organizations
(21:43):
and you see them set up and try and dosimilar things that we do, but we're
already thinking about what's next.
So it's you are now atlevel one podcasting.
We're like, okay, we're here.
We've moved into experi events.
Okay.
We've moved into Monster trucks outsideon beaches to bring in experiential,
bigger brands, bigger oak scope, biggeraudiences, doing fun, different things.
We've just taken the show to Dubai.
We just did some interviews onyachts with some of the most
(22:04):
prestigious people in the legal world.
Nice.
We're off to, we're gonna Kuala Lump,we're taking the show on a world tour.
We're always like.
To stay at number one, to have thebest, you've gotta be the best, right?
You've gotta keep momentum.
It's like the flywheel effect.
So if anyone's read read the book,good To Great by Jim Collins, it's
a great book, but basically it'sall about harnessing momentum.
He talks about this flywheel.
But once you start a business, you needto keep energy inputs to keep inputting
(22:29):
energy like we talked about before.
And the more that you can input theenergy, the more the momentum builds
and builds, and you keep going andyou're never gonna go that way.
Whereas certain companies, they make abad hire or they make a bad decision, and
suddenly they start that momentum fades.
So just have good energy people,be good with your quality hiring,
have good people around you.
And so we're always thinkingabout that, always innovating.
So yeah, a few different directions there.
(22:50):
That was good.
Hopefully that adds some value to it.
No, it
was great.
Wonderful answer.
It's getting those kind of detailsin your answers is very important
for the audience, obviously,to understand the context.
Of what you're saying and the keyword, the key component there is that
you were, you're thinking big Yeah.
To make those kind of partnerships.
(23:11):
And unfortunately, if we.
Start our day and end our day withcomparing ourselves to others, or
for negative or we just dwellingover what has happened in the past.
It's really hard.
It's very difficult to allow the mind tocome up with these bigger ideas because
(23:32):
you're scraping stuff on the surface.
Your energy's down here and youwanna be up here, but you're.
Operating down here is very hardto go there and to create momentum
we need to shift the way wesee our business and ourselves.
First.
It's internal work tocreate that momentum.
When you create that momentum,we start calming the mind.
When we start calming the mind, we comeup with some bigger, greater ideas,
(23:55):
and we don't fear because we believe.
Otherwise seem, oh my God,they'll never work with me.
Your confidence speaks a lot more whenit comes to those kind of relationships,
and yeah.
And again, everything thatI do is COI back to COI.
Yeah.
That cost of an action.
Yeah.
So people will be like, why has theguy gone out to Dubai and suddenly
(24:16):
done this whole series and spenta week there doing this when his
podcast, when it's already global?
Off the back of that, we've only likedfour episodes into releasing that.
We've got some of the top three namesin the legal tech in the region.
That are now not just doingsomething in Dubai, but wanna do
something in the United Arab Emiratesand the meaner region with us.
Again, not bothering to thinkdifferent, to do things differently.
(24:36):
And a lot of people with these ideas,I dunno if you've heard James Clear
speak, but I think he I've done alot of keynotes and listened to a lot
of keynote, but I listened to one ofhis keynotes actually at our podcast
sponsors events in Austin, Texas.
He talks a lot aboutreplace goals with systems.
So I'll give a very simple example.
Let's say your goal is to run a marathon.
That's a great goal, buthow are you gonna get there?
(24:57):
So he talks about small habits, 1% daily.
So if you wanna run that marathon,start by putting your trainers
by your front door every day.
That's a cue.
It's a cue because if you walk past thosetrainers every day and you don't put them
on, you don't decide to run, then youknow, how are you gonna reach that goal?
Then you might wanna start, having aStrava wrap, for example, which gives
you a popup reminder, maybe steps.
(25:18):
Yeah.
And so you in back to this kind ofinputs, energy inputs and so have systems.
Everything that I do is we've gota system in place to make sure that
we're gonna go towards the goal.
Crazy ideas are great, but then let'sget to actually understanding right, what
systems, processes, and by the way, AIis a game changer for all this, you can
leverage AI to the hill for this in termsof even finessing the idea, but then
(25:39):
putting in AI agents and, all of thisgreat stuff to to really make it work.
So yeah, I would encourage your audienceto, to go and check that out a little
bit more and replace goals with systemsand you'll see a lot more success.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then believe in achieving that goal,believe in yourself a hundred percent.
Shift that self-talk from, impossibleto possible because it really is
(26:00):
that the human committed decisionis super power, like super powerful
for individual human being.
To, once we make that committed decisionit's very hard to stop that person.
Nothing will get in theirway when they really believe.
I absolutely agree.
You have to have self-accountabilityin business and entrepreneurship.
(26:20):
Yeah, so I remember a guy saidto me very early on, if it's
meant to be, it's up to me.
So it's so important that you havethis idea or you're gonna push through,
like you're gonna have setbacks.
So everything we're soundingis all rosy and lovely.
Yeah.
The reality is like I'mgetting hit by setback.
I was about to close quitea good deal yesterday.
And it just fell out of bed.
It fell out of bed and itwas six months of work.
And it would've been a greatdeal, would've made the year.
(26:42):
And I could easily have just said,do you know what, it's their fault.
They've, they not given me all the facts.
Yeah.
Fall into that trap,
right?
Yeah.
And if it's meant to be, it's up to me.
So then what do I immediately do?
I then go to a radiator.
I go and read a me mentor straight away.
I go and ring someone that I trustthe voice to get good energy inputs.
Get that people around me becauseotherwise you can get into dwelling.
And so the reality is most of theseideas and amazing businesses, they go
(27:05):
through so many hard times that the,yeah, just keep that self-accountability.
And if you've got thatself-belief, that belief to
achieve you, you'll make it happen.
But remember, if it's meantto be up to me, so important.
Yeah.
You started Mental Health.
And diversity in the legal field,can you see how that's going to
impact the legal field in the future?
Yeah, this is where Italk about tech for good.
(27:27):
Okay.
Historically within the legalindustry, it's been a charge by hour.
So if anyone's instructed a lawyer,an attorney over the years they're
probably paying by the hour.
And where I see is hopefully that billingmodel will eventually move to a value.
A value based pricing model or fixedfee model or whatever it would mean.
But when law firms run billablehours and they're trying to compete
(27:47):
on billable hours, what they'reultimately doing is getting their
lawyers to work lots of hours, right?
To increase that profitability.
So there's lots of stress.
There's demands on that.
You get overworked, night when Istarted the le the legal recruiting,
I was amazed how many people wouldsay, yeah, I'm working on a Saturday.
I'm working on a Sunday,not their own firm.
For someone I've had to miss mydaughter's wedding because, that's an
(28:08):
extreme example, but I, I can't go tothis, and this, but that's the reality.
There's a lot of stress, pressure.
Obviously it's a very important rolebeing a lawyer when most people go to a.
I believe that technology canactually be a huge enabler.
Of removing a lot of that legwork,those, the due diligence, the hours
of research, the hours of drafting.
(28:28):
And so hopefully that will improvethe overall work life balance.
The overall less levels of stress,worry, anxiety, many things.
And we've had some, we've had a and I'dhighly encourage people to have a look
at an organization called Law Care.
We've had the CEO of law care, which oneof the biggest mental health charities
and their CEO come onto our show andtalk about the amazing work they do.
(28:49):
And it's still.
Amazes me.
She even says off 17 years or 18years of being there, the amount
of lawyers that ring her up arejust like up breaking point.
And so you just think this could, andI know it's not just unique to lawyers
and there's a very, every industry,and by the way, we all have a health.
I know we talk about mental health,physical health, but it's help.
And this is the important thing that Iwant to stress, and we're all different.
(29:12):
We, what might be a worry for me, mightnot be a worry for you and vice versa.
And I'm and so I think the work thatthey're doing and the work that we try
to do to collaborate with people, toamplify that message, to let people
know there is help and support andresources out there is very important.
And equally, diversity, equity, inclusion.
Myself, I'm half hierarchy, half English.
I think the legal profession isdoing better, but there's still
(29:33):
more work to be done in terms ofthe the number of people that are
actually at the top of the law firms.
I think it's not as dividiverse as it could be.
There's lots of data and statisticsto back that comment up as well.
And I'm happy to share with yourlisteners a lot more details.
We want to ensure that we are bringingconversations and also the thought
leaders and the people that have done.
To share their experiences, butwe also partner with lots of
(29:55):
organizations doing great workwithin the de and i spaces as well.
And I think it's yeah, it's only apositive, the more diverse a thought you
can have the more law firms, legal firms,perfect will, will flourish basically.
And so I'm passionate about it.
Awesome, man.
I hear your passion.
I know everyone's going to experiencethat passion and, I'm, I want to say
(30:16):
thank you so much for giving me, or givingus your time and sharing your wisdom.
We'll do what we can to expandyour voice as far as we can.
And I'm looking forward tobuilding something strong
here and see how I can help.
But yeah, it was greattalking to you today.
Yeah.
And likewise, and you're obviously anamazing host and it's a great show.
(30:38):
And I guess I'll just leave withprobably my, my, my favorite quote
for anyone of, when it comes tobusiness, the magic you are looking
for is in the work you're avoiding.
I think if you can reallymet that land beautiful.
It will change everything.
There's something in your life rightnow that's in the kind of need to do
or I want to do, and there's the magic.
So the magic you're looking foris in the work you're avoiding.
(30:58):
If you take that head on, I guaranteeyou'll move a lot more forward.
Yeah, go towards the discomfort.
That's where the goal is waiting.
My life has shifted because I becamecomfortable with being uncomfortable.
The reason why I do that is, isbecause it does open up a new
level of energy in a person.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
No, and I'd like to make an offer as well.
(31:20):
If anyone likes my hoodie, if anyoneshares one lesson that they've got
from this episode today tags meand Tags leagues being podcast, we
will choose the favorite one andwe'll send them out a free hoodie.
Beautiful.
Thank you so much, Rob.
Great offer
look, collaboration is domination.
So the more people that youcan collaborate with, the more
impact you can do to amplify.
(00:26):
Welcome back to SuperEntrepreneurs Podcast.
I'm your host, Shahid Durrani, theshow where we dive into the minds
of high performing entrepreneurs,innovators, and world class leaders.
If you're someone who's always lookingto grow, push limits, think and.
Do bigger.
(00:46):
You're in the right place.
Today we have Robert Hanna.
Rob is the founder and managingdirector of KC Partners, a global
leader in legal talent solutions.
He's also the host of the AcclaimedLegal Speaking podcast where he
explores the dynamic world of lawwith industry leaders and innovators.
(01:09):
Rob is.
Also deeply committed to advancingmental health awareness, diversity and
inclusion within the legal profession.
He gets his inspiration fromhis grandfather's legacy as the
pioneering lawyer in the 1950s.
Rob, it's a pleasure to haveyou on the show, my friend.
(01:31):
Right back at you.
I'm a big fan of the show and reallyappreciate the the warm introduction and
even how we're kicking the tires off air.
And I think that's thebeauty of podcasting, right?
You get to really connect withpeople and yeah, I love it.
Love your energy, love your show.
Pleasure to be here.
Oh yeah, same here.
It was great.
Right off the bat, when you meet someoneright before the recording, you just
know it's gonna be a phenomenal episode.
(01:51):
The energy speaks so much louderthan the words can ever, so yeah.
I'm grateful to have you on the showand see how we can add value here.
Yeah.
Ab absolutely.
And I'm very much in your hands,but I always say everything is
energy, I think if you can puteverything into it Yeah, same here.
And it's reciprocated and I thinkthat's really been, we'll probably
touch into entrepreneurshipand all of that good stuff.
(02:11):
I think it's the energy that reallyis almost super in some respects.
Yeah.
And so do you find, are you aware thatdepending on your energy levels throughout
your career, throughout your life,you're a young guy, but I'm just saying
throughout your career, did you notice.
As your energy levels elevated, yoursuccess elevated, or did you notice a
(02:33):
connection between how you felt, how youwere energized, and what you were doing?
Yeah.
I think now as I am, late thirties, onething I have noticed is I. I need to put
more in to keep the energy levels thatI had when I was in my sort of early
career of my twenties and building andstarting businesses, et cetera, et cetera.
But it's now, as of today,coming onto this podcast.
(02:55):
My, my energy levels are the same, butI'm making sure that I'm doing the run.
I'm looking after myself.
I'm putting all the work in toensure that I can keep those
energy levels nice and high.
And the other thing I always say, you've.
Be that mentors, be that familypeople that you look up to who can
coach, teach bring good energy away.
That's super helped.
So I learned quite early on into myjourney of business that I wanna be
(03:16):
around a lot more radiators than peoplethat necessarily drain your energy.
So yeah, that's beensuper important to me.
Cool.
Yeah.
For me, I shifted that all around.
What you're saying, I completelyagree with, because your
environment has a lot to do withthe type of energy that you hold.
Because they influence you, yeah.
But what I did, and the people thatwe work with, what we do is we shift
(03:38):
that focus from outside to internally.
So when we shift the focusinternally, we only concentrate
on the energy levels within.
So we amplify the feelings, thethoughts, the feelings, and we
amplify how we feel in our body.
In moment by moment basis throughoutthe day, we practice it like a sport.
(03:59):
And then what we do is thenwe interact with others.
Not having them allow them to havean impact on my emotional state,
but respecting and dealing with themjust from a gap, if that makes sense.
Now, things can become sometimes,chaotic, but you're just step away
and you're dealing with life from thatgap and it just makes everything more
(04:19):
easier because now you're a beaconfor goodness because you just feel
phenomenal and then you experience thatphenomenal around you inexperiences.
'cause you start seeing thecircumstances, situations, they
start shifting to match that energy
yeah, and I think it's almost settingand protecting your boundaries.
And I mentioned something very early on,it's have a concrete mindset and so the
(04:42):
more con, like to you're saying settingthat distance, setting that sort of, that
for me is like what I call a concretemindset in terms of I'm not prepared to
let these sort of, maybe neg because everyidea and we're saying off air as well.
One crazy idea away from avery successful business.
A very successful business.
The one that we were just talking about.
Yeah.
The one that we're not gonna sharethat's highly under NDI from both of us.
(05:02):
Then yeah,
I usually share everything, but Ibe on a respect that one was because
you're in the legal world, I wanna
be very careful.
Yeah.
I've already got the word NDA in there.
What am I talking about?
But no, I think, I'm a bigbeliever in be around big thinkers.
Different thinkers, yeah.
Innovators, because most peoplewill think your ideas suck.
And if you look at any breakthroughtechnology, you look at any breakthrough
(05:24):
business, logically they don't makesense, but they make sense to the
people that, have these big ideasand visions and carry it through.
So yeah, I'm a big advocate for ifyou'll get around a lot of people
that say those ideas aren't right,those aren't ideas are right.
Don't do that.
Never do that.
Never do that.
Yeah.
Maybe some of them might be right, butyou might wanna also go in a room where
certain people have an open mind to.
Old on a.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(05:45):
I'm also impressed how you'retrailblazing the podcasting world when
it comes to legal professions, yeah.
Can you share what inspiredyou to start that podcast?
It's a, it's very dear to me whatI did and this pivot I did during
covid, but I just wondering ifthere's a story behind your podcast.
Yeah.
And if you'll just humor me for amoment just to put some context.
(06:07):
You very kindly gave a, anoverview at the beginning.
I guess why I do all of this,have a podcast, this, that and the
other, is it does go back to my lategrandfather as you referenced there.
Okay.
And I'll just share a very quick story.
Many years ago when I was a young kid, Iwent to his house and he would've been 10,
15 years post-retirement at this stage.
So he'd ran his law firm, retired,exited and I, every year I'd go and
(06:29):
there'd be more and more Christmas cardsdelivered to his house, and I'd say
to my grandfather at the time, wow, Ididn't realize you had that many friends.
And he would say, they're not all friends.
And I said who's sendingyou Christmas cards?
He said.
Clients.
And I was like, but youretired 15 years ago.
And he says, yes, but these are clientsthanking me for the work that I've
done and the generations beneath them.
Children that have been grateful forthe work that my firm did, updating
(06:51):
me on when they're having children,grandchildren, all the amazing work
that the firm did for them and helpedthem throughout their journeys.
And that really stuck with me.
And that was in an offline world.
And I knew that one day I wanted to setup some entrepreneurial, I had wanted
to carry on that entrepreneurial flareand indeed carry that legacy in legal.
And so 2016 I set up alegal recruiting business.
(07:12):
But I had know very early on thatbeing an early entrance and new
entrance into that market, I neededto do something which was different,
which was new, which was alternative.
So we became the first UKlegal recruiting podcast.
Okay, so we launched that veryearly, late 2018 because people
are like, what's a podcast?
What is this like?
Particularly over here, we're alwaysbehind the US anyway, and Canada.
(07:33):
It was nice to nice to be earlyto something and I use that as
a thought leadership tool tobusiness develop, to get out there.
But also principally because I have amission, which we call is to inspire
legal minds and transform legal futures.
I'm leaving a digitallegacy, A traceable legacy.
Yes.
So my daughter one day wants togo and see what dad did when he
was on sha, he's great podcast.
(07:54):
Or when he was doing this, when I wascollaborating with Gary Vaynerchuk on
a LinkedIn Live or whatever it mighthave been that I was doing, that she
can go and reference that and it'sthere because that's the only thing
that I can't at the moment is it isonly in my mind from those memories.
But I can't go and search anything.
It's in an offline world.
My purpose is linked back tocontinue that legacy, to do well, to
influence and inspire people in thelegal community, but in a forward,
(08:16):
innovative, different fashion.
So we were the first legal show to doWeb3, to look at some creator coins to, go
into Discord, to gamify the show, to bringCarol Baskin from Tiger King on at the
time when Netflix was the most tiger Kingwas the most watched show in the world,
and link that to the legal audience.
So we're always pushing boundaries,doing interesting things, but
that's really the wise, becauseI wanna carry that legacy on in.
(08:40):
And just beyond your family.
Beyond your kids, even generations.
Yeah.
Great.
Grandkids, right?
They're gonna be also looking at thisand also people that are out there
part of the show, you would just evolvewith them as generations progress
because with ai who really knows ifthis will ever end, 'cause AI is going
(09:01):
to, become more and more intelligent.
So even, when we pass on, who knows?
What will happen.
I'm not saying the end result, butI'm just saying that there might be
a potential where we live on to addvalue in a more artificial way that
still gives a good punch or good value.
Punch to people.
(09:22):
But it, because it's evolving, it'sgetting, it's understanding it way better.
It's becoming more intelligent.
It's providing more valuewhere it's needed at that time.
'cause everything can shift in time.
So we don't know where this is gonna go.
And I'm very similar to you withthis show, I struggle so much in
business, and I see so many peoplevery frustrated, especially people that.
(09:43):
Go into business from nine to five.
They were thinking that it's somethingglamorous and they, and I was the
same way, thought it would be easy.
And I was working double thetime that I did at a job.
And I, and there's a lot of people outthere like that, that don't realize
it's the internal that needs toshift to make the outside difference.
So that's why trying tobring that voice out.
But on top of that, my kids.
(10:06):
Because with kids, it's just,it's different relationships with
kids, parents, like you can try tocoach them, but say, dad, or blah,
blah there's, you know what I mean?
It's oh, again, you'regonna say that again.
It's different when people want help.
When they ask for help it'scompletely different, but
later on, ask kids to mature.
They start.
Grabbing that, that internal valuethey have for their parent and what
(10:28):
they did, and I'm hoping you know,the content's gonna be out there,
I'm hoping they're gonna watch it andgain some knowledge to what they need
to do, wisdom, what they need to dointernally from all these wonderful
people all over the world, sharingtheir vision, sharing their message
to help them make it, create a better.
Comfortable life because everythingon the outside is gonna be chaotic,
(10:50):
but we need to be more stable within.
And that's what I'm hoping with this show.
Yeah.
And I think you're doing a tremendousjob with the guests that you're bringing
on and the way that you are obviously,creating huge reach and, that's one
of the beautiful things of podcasting.
And if I go back to my journey to thequestion you said there was a huge.
COI, which I call everyonethink focuses on ROI, which is
obviously return on investment.
(11:11):
But, cost of inaction I thinkis so important to consider.
And cost of inaction good.
There would've been a real cost,like we wouldn't starting the
podcast to be as a feeder to mylegal recruiting business, which now.
Has helped in terms of candidatescome to us, clients come to us, we
can engage, we can build community.
But then it's moved into, now it's alegal media, like probably of your show.
(11:31):
You have sponsors, you have, we'relucky that we started from in a room.
Nobody listening to us being top1% in the world we're sponsored
by a $3 billion, the world'slargest legal tech company in Clio.
And we've retained that relationship.
Love it.
20 20, 21, through to now I investin legal tech businesses, and so
none of that would've happened.
None of these opportunities.
LinkedIn, top Voice, helpingLinkedIn with product rollouts,
(11:52):
getting into businesses, fast growthbusinesses, setting up the table.
None of that would've happenedif I'd have focused on the ROI.
I focused on there's a real opportunity.
Yes.
And I don't want that COI to go missing.
Yeah.
So anyone sat there, particularlywhen you talk about ai,
because none of us can predict.
I think it's, I think it's crazy if anyonethinks they can look into a crystal ball
because AI is already, when you get superintelligence, they're already gonna be.
(12:13):
Bigger and better than the human brain.
So no one living on this planetcan actually currently tell
you what it's gonna look like.
We can have educated guests andopinions, and of course that's a scary
thought, particularly someone you wouldbringing children into this world.
But you've gotta think about it.
If you're thinking about a business nowand it's a crazy idea in your head, I
encourage you to get in a room wherewe're around people that will actually
flesh out that idea more because we'reliving in a world of a value pyramid.
(12:35):
With ai.
So technology is coming in.
So imagine technology iscoming through the pyramid.
So you look at a lot of things,let's use legal as an example.
The world that I'm in, I recruit fortechnology, is coming in that can do
basic level research that can do firstlevel drafting with generative AI now.
So unless you are as a lawyeror whatever profession you are,
doctor, accountant, unless youare moving your value proposition.
(12:58):
This pyramid, then you do run the riskof potentially AI taking over or indeed
adapting and reshaping that role.
So you've gotta ensure when you're lookingat these crazy ideas that I encourage
everyone to think about that it'sgonna be ahead of this kind of pyramid
that I see and the way I describe it.
I really like the cost of inaction.
(13:18):
COIs is amazing.
And what we do when you add value toothers is you're participating in a
law that the, Emerson called the lawof laws, the law of cause and effect.
Yep.
When you focus on adding value,when you focus on doing good
for others, automatically.
As a side effect, goodness comes your way.
(13:38):
I know a lot of people don't believethis, but man, if you just practice
it, if you just give it a shot, ifpeople are genuinely go that route and
we focus on others, ultimately we see.
That coming not from that person.
You don't really expect it from thatperson, but it comes from various areas
(14:00):
and the partnerships that you made and thespots are so amazing, and the, I didn't
really hustle to go and find, global.
I. PR agencies and firms towork with us and all that.
I didn't, it just came . I'm not tryingto see it's how many views I'm gonna
get, how many downloads I'm gonna get.
I'm just doing my best.
What we could do is take somethingfrom you, give it to the people
(14:21):
so we can impact together.
We could impact a life,even if we impact one life.
Hey, that's good, man.
Good day.
It's amazing.
And look, collaboration is domination.
So the more people that youcan collaborate with, the more
impact you can do to amplify.
And what you are doing with and similarto me is, you're trying to be authentic.
And, you shouldn't try.
We are being authentic.
(14:41):
We are what we are.
And that's where people, that'swhere you can build trust and
you can build relationships.
Yeah.
And you can, we're no longer in this,friends of mine describe it as b2B, B2C.
It's no longer that it's H to hit's human to human connection.
Yeah.
It's like how can we increasethat human connection?
Yes.
And love it.
Yeah.
I think it's really important that peopleunderstand that don't just be straight
out for what's the immediate win for me?
(15:02):
Put good things out to the worldand you will attract your tribe.
And you can speak to that.
Yeah, I can speak to that.
And, and I can tell you the other thingthat's really important luckily enough,
I've been in sales and deals and you cando millions of pounds of deals and all
of this great stuff, but the intrinsicvalue you get from saying, Hey, I just
listened to that piece of podcast, Rob.
You did, and that helped me get that pieceof wisdom, that got a job application.
(15:22):
That for me is like the intrinsicvalue you get from building
community, putting things out thereis, it's just good for the soul.
And that's something to me.
Yeah, it is.
And you look up to the legacy piece andyou think that's, I'm doing the job.
I'm doing the job.
Yes.
Of course you need to make surethat whatever you're doing in
business, if you're for profit,you need to get the numbers right.
But I tell you, once you getto a stage in business that
intrinsic value is a worth tenfold.
(15:44):
Yeah.
Oh man, we can, I love this.
Because I just, another idea justcame to mind about our idea that
we talked about in the beginning.
So when you're speaking I'm sorry if Iprobably missed some of it because my
mind went an idea, you never wanna dothat right before you record a podcast.
Yeah.
With a phenomenal idea.
But anyway, a unicorn idea.
(16:06):
But hey, you don't wanna, yeah.
It just hits you, right?
The ideas keep coming afterwards.
It's like you just.
Tapped into a connection of some source.
Yeah.
That keeps downloading information.
But no, it's phenomenal.
I'm grateful to met you, man, and someof my most incredible relationships
I'm building is through this podcastall over the world and genuine,
it's what can I do for you, kind ofattitude and is I'm so grateful to
(16:30):
attract people like you into my life.
And I just wanted to share share athank you with you right to that we
met and how we met and how you cameon this show and everything is just.
Those things that have happened,dots that have been connected
to make this happen right now.
But I'm just grateful overall for thisopportunity especially for what you're
(16:50):
doing for other people because, the heartto heart is so important that we need
more of it and we're seeing more of it.
Especially since Covid is,there's a lot more focus from,
the macho to more to love.
And the love is.
A foundational energy thatis phenomenally powerful.
And once you tap into it, once yourheart is filled with it and you just,
(17:14):
good things just keep happening.
And this is another example.
But another question I havefor you, can you share some.
Innovative strategies that you haveimplemented that helped you grow
the firm in this competitive market?
Yeah, I think let's use the podcast asso that the originally the podcast that
I started was you imagine I'm I didn'tcome from a legal recruiting background.
(17:38):
I came from.
Procurement energy supply chain.
So I had about 10 years and Iwas a director in other business.
But remember, go back to my why.
I wanted to do something in legal.
So I got to the stage where I was likeI wanna set up a legal business and use
my talent and skills, which at the timewas that talent solutions recruiting.
And I knew very early on thatI can't compete and ring up
a partner of a law firm or anowner of a law firm and say, hey.
(18:01):
I am I can help your legal recruitmentbecause they're like we've been using
the guys down the road for 15 years.
They've placed the last100 people with us.
We've got great terms.
They're amazing.
We know them.
We trust them.
We like them.
They're everything we ever wanted.
You've just started, why shouldwe speak to you and Right.
That's an extreme example, butthat's where the reality is, right?
And so I was thinking, what could I dodifferently in the early late twenties,
(18:23):
like I said, in terms of that sort of2017, thinking about things 2018 started
and it was like why don't I switchnarrative rather than calling these
people and saying, can you help me?
Why don't I ring them?
And by the way, legal is verybehind in terms of 'cause regulated.
There's risk, lawyers jumping onpodcasts way back when it's not
quite as you know now, it's obviouslya lot more common, but back then
there was still a what's a podcast?
(18:44):
What do I need to.
I would rather them reach out to'em, I'd say, Hey I'd love to I'd
like to switch up the way thatyou go about talent attraction.
And I'd like to do this with just 20minutes of your time at my office with
coffee and biscuits where I'll record20 minutes asking everything about you.
Your show I mean your practice, whyyou are great to work for, your career
(19:06):
journey, the challenges, the opportunitiesand you'll have a wonderful experience.
I just need 20 minutes of your timeat my office, which is only two
minutes away, around the corner.
And through that 20 minutes, I'll producesix months worth of content for you
that you can pass on to your marketingteam for free in the form of blog
posts, short form videos SEO compliant.
Blogs, articles shorts for YouTube,TikTok, Instagram, et cetera, et cetera,
(19:30):
that will reach out exponentially, whichis gonna work way better than your current
marketing strategy from your law firm.
And I'll also create some bespoke jobdescriptions or talent attractions,
descriptions that are different andalternative that'll make your opportunity
as and when you are hiring or if you'retalent pooling over your competitors that
are offering the same money, the sameopportunity as you with a similar clients.
(19:52):
This is gonna help you stand out.
How does that sound to you?
So it's, oh, by the way, I'm gonnaput your voice in six and a half
thousand cities around the world.
A podcast, as gets, lets go.
Exponential reach.
Lets it's very hard to say no go away.
Yeah, it's like this is called likea really powerful offer, right?
Yeah.
It's a loaded, it's it'sa triple loaded value add.
And then they don't really know atthis point, so they come and they
(20:13):
do this, we do this amazing thing,and then we just do some follow ups.
And by the way, if you're everlooking, and then of course,
we're top of mind, right?
We're top of mind for when they're hiring.
We've given them all of this great stuff.
It's a great entry point.
So I think that was the most.
Innovative business developmentstrategy of all time.
And then you come in with even, and thenwhen you're like how do you get it better?
Let's go and get the world's bestlegal technology company that's on
(20:35):
an aggressive growth drive to thengo and business develop further.
So when we're talking to partners andmore podcasts come about, what's our USP?
We've got exponential reach now.
Because we are partnering with the world'sbest legal tech company and we've got an
overarching bigger mission we're helpingwhen it comes to diversity, equity
inclusion, which your law firm clearlystates that you are passionate about.
We're helping when itcomes to mental health.
(20:57):
We're also helping with the almostmulti it is a multi-billion dollar
access to justice gap issue wherelegal technology can reduce that.
For good access to justice.
So people who can't affordlegal services get the work.
So again, you're coming in with value add.
When podcasts become it's just anotherpodcast with different angles, different
things, different value, pro proposition.
So when that partner in law firm isn'tjust another partner on a show, they're
(21:20):
part of a community that's adding valueto broader prospect part to a. Bigger
reach, bigger opportunity, then you getthe world's best law firm owners on.
Then you get certain people comingon and all of these amazing things.
But yeah, it's thinking strategically.
It's putting yourselves in the shoes ofthe people that you're trying to approach.
So that's probably been our mostinnovative business development strategy
where we're so early out the gate andnow we welcome competitor organizations
(21:43):
and you see them set up and try and dosimilar things that we do, but we're
already thinking about what's next.
So it's you are now atlevel one podcasting.
We're like, okay, we're here.
We've moved into experi events.
Okay.
We've moved into Monster trucks outsideon beaches to bring in experiential,
bigger brands, bigger oak scope, biggeraudiences, doing fun, different things.
We've just taken the show to Dubai.
We just did some interviews onyachts with some of the most
(22:04):
prestigious people in the legal world.
Nice.
We're off to, we're gonna Kuala Lump,we're taking the show on a world tour.
We're always like.
To stay at number one, to have thebest, you've gotta be the best, right?
You've gotta keep momentum.
It's like the flywheel effect.
So if anyone's read read the book,good To Great by Jim Collins, it's
a great book, but basically it'sall about harnessing momentum.
He talks about this flywheel.
But once you start a business, you needto keep energy inputs to keep inputting
(22:29):
energy like we talked about before.
And the more that you can input theenergy, the more the momentum builds
and builds, and you keep going andyou're never gonna go that way.
Whereas certain companies, they make abad hire or they make a bad decision, and
suddenly they start that momentum fades.
So just have good energy people,be good with your quality hiring,
have good people around you.
And so we're always thinkingabout that, always innovating.
So yeah, a few different directions there.
(22:50):
That was good.
Hopefully that adds some value to it.
No, it
was great.
Wonderful answer.
It's getting those kind of detailsin your answers is very important
for the audience, obviously,to understand the context.
Of what you're saying and the keyword, the key component there is that
you were, you're thinking big Yeah.
To make those kind of partnerships.
(23:11):
And unfortunately, if we.
Start our day and end our day withcomparing ourselves to others, or
for negative or we just dwellingover what has happened in the past.
It's really hard.
It's very difficult to allow the mind tocome up with these bigger ideas because
(23:32):
you're scraping stuff on the surface.
Your energy's down here and youwanna be up here, but you're.
Operating down here is very hardto go there and to create momentum
we need to shift the way wesee our business and ourselves.
First.
It's internal work tocreate that momentum.
When you create that momentum,we start calming the mind.
When we start calming the mind, we comeup with some bigger, greater ideas,
(23:55):
and we don't fear because we believe.
Otherwise seem, oh my God,they'll never work with me.
Your confidence speaks a lot more whenit comes to those kind of relationships,
and yeah.
And again, everything thatI do is COI back to COI.
Yeah.
That cost of an action.
Yeah.
So people will be like, why has theguy gone out to Dubai and suddenly
(24:16):
done this whole series and spenta week there doing this when his
podcast, when it's already global?
Off the back of that, we've only likedfour episodes into releasing that.
We've got some of the top three namesin the legal tech in the region.
That are now not just doingsomething in Dubai, but wanna do
something in the United Arab Emiratesand the meaner region with us.
Again, not bothering to thinkdifferent, to do things differently.
(24:36):
And a lot of people with these ideas,I dunno if you've heard James Clear
speak, but I think he I've done alot of keynotes and listened to a lot
of keynote, but I listened to one ofhis keynotes actually at our podcast
sponsors events in Austin, Texas.
He talks a lot aboutreplace goals with systems.
So I'll give a very simple example.
Let's say your goal is to run a marathon.
That's a great goal, buthow are you gonna get there?
(24:57):
So he talks about small habits, 1% daily.
So if you wanna run that marathon,start by putting your trainers
by your front door every day.
That's a cue.
It's a cue because if you walk past thosetrainers every day and you don't put them
on, you don't decide to run, then youknow, how are you gonna reach that goal?
Then you might wanna start, having aStrava wrap, for example, which gives
you a popup reminder, maybe steps.
(25:18):
Yeah.
And so you in back to this kind ofinputs, energy inputs and so have systems.
Everything that I do is we've gota system in place to make sure that
we're gonna go towards the goal.
Crazy ideas are great, but then let'sget to actually understanding right, what
systems, processes, and by the way, AIis a game changer for all this, you can
leverage AI to the hill for this in termsof even finessing the idea, but then
(25:39):
putting in AI agents and, all of thisgreat stuff to to really make it work.
So yeah, I would encourage your audienceto, to go and check that out a little
bit more and replace goals with systemsand you'll see a lot more success.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then believe in achieving that goal,believe in yourself a hundred percent.
Shift that self-talk from, impossibleto possible because it really is
(26:00):
that the human committed decisionis super power, like super powerful
for individual human being.
To, once we make that committed decisionit's very hard to stop that person.
Nothing will get in theirway when they really believe.
I absolutely agree.
You have to have self-accountabilityin business and entrepreneurship.
(26:20):
Yeah, so I remember a guy saidto me very early on, if it's
meant to be, it's up to me.
So it's so important that you havethis idea or you're gonna push through,
like you're gonna have setbacks.
So everything we're soundingis all rosy and lovely.
Yeah.
The reality is like I'mgetting hit by setback.
I was about to close quitea good deal yesterday.
And it just fell out of bed.
It fell out of bed and itwas six months of work.
And it would've been a greatdeal, would've made the year.
(26:42):
And I could easily have just said,do you know what, it's their fault.
They've, they not given me all the facts.
Yeah.
Fall into that trap,
right?
Yeah.
And if it's meant to be, it's up to me.
So then what do I immediately do?
I then go to a radiator.
I go and read a me mentor straight away.
I go and ring someone that I trustthe voice to get good energy inputs.
Get that people around me becauseotherwise you can get into dwelling.
And so the reality is most of theseideas and amazing businesses, they go
(27:05):
through so many hard times that the,yeah, just keep that self-accountability.
And if you've got thatself-belief, that belief to
achieve you, you'll make it happen.
But remember, if it's meantto be up to me, so important.
Yeah.
You started Mental Health.
And diversity in the legal field,can you see how that's going to
impact the legal field in the future?
Yeah, this is where Italk about tech for good.
(27:27):
Okay.
Historically within the legalindustry, it's been a charge by hour.
So if anyone's instructed a lawyer,an attorney over the years they're
probably paying by the hour.
And where I see is hopefully that billingmodel will eventually move to a value.
A value based pricing model or fixedfee model or whatever it would mean.
But when law firms run billablehours and they're trying to compete
(27:47):
on billable hours, what they'reultimately doing is getting their
lawyers to work lots of hours, right?
To increase that profitability.
So there's lots of stress.
There's demands on that.
You get overworked, night when Istarted the le the legal recruiting,
I was amazed how many people wouldsay, yeah, I'm working on a Saturday.
I'm working on a Sunday,not their own firm.
For someone I've had to miss mydaughter's wedding because, that's an
(28:08):
extreme example, but I, I can't go tothis, and this, but that's the reality.
There's a lot of stress, pressure.
Obviously it's a very important rolebeing a lawyer when most people go to a.
I believe that technology canactually be a huge enabler.
Of removing a lot of that legwork,those, the due diligence, the hours
of research, the hours of drafting.
(28:28):
And so hopefully that will improvethe overall work life balance.
The overall less levels of stress,worry, anxiety, many things.
And we've had some, we've had a and I'dhighly encourage people to have a look
at an organization called Law Care.
We've had the CEO of law care, which oneof the biggest mental health charities
and their CEO come onto our show andtalk about the amazing work they do.
(28:49):
And it's still.
Amazes me.
She even says off 17 years or 18years of being there, the amount
of lawyers that ring her up arejust like up breaking point.
And so you just think this could, andI know it's not just unique to lawyers
and there's a very, every industry,and by the way, we all have a health.
I know we talk about mental health,physical health, but it's help.
And this is the important thing that Iwant to stress, and we're all different.
(29:12):
We, what might be a worry for me, mightnot be a worry for you and vice versa.
And I'm and so I think the work thatthey're doing and the work that we try
to do to collaborate with people, toamplify that message, to let people
know there is help and support andresources out there is very important.
And equally, diversity, equity, inclusion.
Myself, I'm half hierarchy, half English.
I think the legal profession isdoing better, but there's still
(29:33):
more work to be done in terms ofthe the number of people that are
actually at the top of the law firms.
I think it's not as dividiverse as it could be.
There's lots of data and statisticsto back that comment up as well.
And I'm happy to share with yourlisteners a lot more details.
We want to ensure that we are bringingconversations and also the thought
leaders and the people that have done.
To share their experiences, butwe also partner with lots of
(29:55):
organizations doing great workwithin the de and i spaces as well.
And I think it's yeah, it's only apositive, the more diverse a thought you
can have the more law firms, legal firms,perfect will, will flourish basically.
And so I'm passionate about it.
Awesome, man.
I hear your passion.
I know everyone's going to experiencethat passion and, I'm, I want to say
(30:16):
thank you so much for giving me, or givingus your time and sharing your wisdom.
We'll do what we can to expandyour voice as far as we can.
And I'm looking forward tobuilding something strong
here and see how I can help.
But yeah, it was greattalking to you today.
Yeah.
And likewise, and you're obviously anamazing host and it's a great show.
(30:38):
And I guess I'll just leave withprobably my, my, my favorite quote
for anyone of, when it comes tobusiness, the magic you are looking
for is in the work you're avoiding.
I think if you can reallymet that land beautiful.
It will change everything.
There's something in your life rightnow that's in the kind of need to do
or I want to do, and there's the magic.
So the magic you're looking foris in the work you're avoiding.
(30:58):
If you take that head on, I guaranteeyou'll move a lot more forward.
Yeah, go towards the discomfort.
That's where the goal is waiting.
My life has shifted because I becamecomfortable with being uncomfortable.
The reason why I do that is, isbecause it does open up a new
level of energy in a person.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
No, and I'd like to make an offer as well.
(31:20):
If anyone likes my hoodie, if anyoneshares one lesson that they've got
from this episode today tags meand Tags leagues being podcast, we
will choose the favorite one andwe'll send them out a free hoodie.
Beautiful.
Thank you so much, Rob.
Great offer
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