February 12, 2025 • 29 mins
Is real estate shifting in a whole new direction? If you’ve been watching the market, you know homeownership is getting tougher—but here’s the big opportunity no one’s talking about: Build-to-Rent.
In this episode, I sit down with Neal Bawa, the “Mad Scientist of Multifamily,” to break down why Build-to-Rent is the next big wave in real estate investing—and how you can get ahead of the curve. Whether you're an investor, entrepreneur, or just real estate-curious, this conversation is packed with insights that could change how you think about property investments.
Hit play and let’s dive in! 🚀
Chapter Stamps:
00:49 Neal Bawa's Background
01:13 Data-Driven Decision Making
02:53 Importance of Visualization
03:35 Accountability Through Data
04:13 Tools and Technology
11:23 ChatGPT in Business
13:27 Global Team Management
16:00 Build-to-Rent Model
16:19 Market Dynamics and Challenges
19:06 Benefits of Build-to-Rent
28:35 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Pullout Quotes:
"Data beats gut feel by a million miles."
"You can only manage what you can measure. If you can't measure it, you can't manage it."
"A snapshot only shows you what happens today. What you need is trend analysis—budget versus actual for everything."
"ChatGPT changed my world on November 30th, 2022. I use it 15 to 20 times a day."
"In the last four years, 18 million American families have become forever renters."
"Build-to-Rent is not apartments. It’s single-family or townhomes designed from scratch just for rentals."
"People stay in our Build-to-Rent communities for twice as long as apartments—because they feel like home."
Social:
Website: https://grocapitus.com/
Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/neal-bawa
Disclaimer: Please be aware that the opinions and perspectives conveyed in this podcast are solely those of our guests and do not necessarily represent the views, ideologies, or principles of Super Entrepreneurs Podcast, its associated entities, or any organizations they represent or are affiliated with. We provide a platform for discussion and exploration, and the content of each episode is understood to be independent expressions from our guests, rather than a reflection of the beliefs held by the podcast or its hosts.
Notice to the Super Entrepreneurs community:
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Every aspect of your business, everymetric that makes you money and makes
(00:03):
your investors money has to continuouslyon an ongoing basis, be measured,
tracked with a budget and an actual,and everything has to be visual.
This is the end of
(00:29):
the video.
Welcome to Super Entrepreneur's Podcast.
Today, I am excited to welcome Neal Bawa.
Neil is known as the mad scientist ofmultifamily, and for a good reason.
He's a technologist turned realestate expert who leads two major
(00:53):
investment companies, GrowCapitusand YouGrow, with a portfolio
valued at over a billion dollars.
What really sets Neal apart is hisdata driven approach to real estate.
He's passionate about usingtechnology and analytics to make
(01:14):
smarter, more efficient decisions.
And his methods are transforminghow people think about investing.
Neal is also a Speaker, a wellsought after speaker and a
educator sharing his insights withthousands of investors every year.
Welcome to our show, Neal.
(01:37):
Thanks for having me on the show.
I'm very excited to be here, Shahid.
It's great to have you.
So you started in the tech worldand then moved into real estate,
where you're making a lot of.
Big impact.
What skills or thought patterns or wayof thinking that helped you from your
(01:59):
tech background in real estate and howit could help others in similar ways?
I think the What I think a lot of theskills that you bring from the technology
world, I was running a company, I wasgrowing it, when I started with the
company in 1999, the division thatI was working for was 10 employees.
(02:21):
When we sold the company 14 yearslater, it had 300 plus employees.
It's about loving what you do.
It's about growing your business.
It's about being metrics and data driven.
I think that.
I've always been the kind of guy thattells my staff, tells my people, imagine
the stupidest CEO you've ever seen, right?
(02:42):
That's me.
I want you to give me massiveamounts of data, but I want you to
break it down into visual chunks.
So I don't allow Excelspreadsheets to be sent to me.
I always have them add a tab, anexecutive dashboard tab at the beginning.
And I say, I only willopen and look at this.
Don't ever expect me to look at the data.
(03:02):
What I want is visualization that allowsme to make good, effective decisions.
And it allows me to do it in a second.
When you look at a car dashboard, you'resupposed to have 1 5th of a second to
look down and then look back at the road.
Because if you look for two seconds,you're going to go hit somebody.
So a dashboard is supposed to be instant.
And so I've really made my career on.
(03:25):
Continuously making my peopleaccountable, whether they're in real
estate or in technology or operations,marketing, sales, accountable and
accountable, not just by sending datato me, but also accountable by having
data published in a Slack channel.
Back then we used to do it over email.
Now everything's done through Slack.
(03:46):
We're on a weekly, monthly,quarterly, and annual basis.
We have over 400 reports that verytransparently show us the people
that are performing and the peoplethat are not performing, right?
And that is a huge benefitto any of my companies.
And I bring that from technology, right?
We use a software called GoogleLooker Studio that builds
(04:07):
dozens dashboards for us.
And that gives me a clear visibilityinto how my properties are doing,
what's the efficiency of leasing,what's the efficiency of, renewals,
what's happening with the developmentprojects, is everything going on track.
And I find that peopledon't do that often enough.
Everyone claims to be an expert at Excel.
(04:28):
I will actually claim I'm not one.
I used to be an Excel expert,maybe 15, 20 years ago, and I
don't write formulas anymore.
I'm an executive.
My job is to take, 300 plusmillion dollars from my investors
and invest it properly inprudent projects that make sense.
And so to do that, I don'tneed to write Excel formulas.
I don't need to be very good atExcel or even analyzing Excel.
(04:51):
What I need to be good at is ensuringthat those Excel spreadsheets are
correct and then gleaning insightsfrom there and creating systems and
processes to improve my business.
This is no different from tech and realestate, and that's really what I do.
I tell people, data beatsgut feel by a million miles.
That's my first mantra.
Data beats gut feel by a millionmiles, because people have too much
(05:11):
focus on gut feel and I don't like it.
And the second is, you can onlymanage what you can measure.
If you can't measureit, you can't manage it.
You have this delusion thatyou're managing something
if you're not measuring it.
And measuring something once has no value.
What you have to do is measureit and then say, okay, is this
something I want to measure weekly,monthly, quarterly, annually?
(05:32):
What is the appropriate timeframe?
And then you should basicallybe able to benchmark it from
all previous measurements.
So we do not create snapshots.
We hate them.
A snapshot only shows you what happenstoday or this week or this month.
We compare it against everything else.
And we have budget versusactual for everything.
A lot of people, Shahid, think thatbudget versus actual is something
(05:53):
that you do for dollar numbers.
What are my budgeted rentsversus my actual rents?
What's my budgeted construction costsversus actual construction costs?
That's such a terrible concept,but it's stuck in people's head
and you have to get it out.
There should be a budgetversus actual for everything.
We have a budget versusactual for how many leads a
property should get this week.
How many of those leadsshould turn into appointments?
(06:16):
How many of those appointmentsshould turn into shows?
How many of those showsshould turn into applications?
And how many of those applicationsshould turn into leases?
This is called L A S A L or LASAL leads.
Appointments, shows,applications, leases, LASAL.
So not only do you need to track all fiveof these numbers, L A S A L, you also
(06:37):
need to track the ratio between them.
We call that L to A to S to A to L.Those ratios then need to have a budget.
This is your budgeted number.
Shahid, you're a property manager, you'rea leasing agent at one of my properties.
Let's say it's a 200 millionproperty that I bought for 30
million, and Shahid's job is.
That when Shahid gets 10 peoplein a week that are shows out of
(07:00):
those five need to turn into apps.
Therefore the L two the showto application ratio is 50%.
Half of the people that came in andsaw the property should turn into
applications, and I'm going to track that.
And there's gonna be a budget.
And your performance is, it has to be 50%.
You can be lower one week, butthen next week you gotta be higher.
So over a month's timeframe, yougotta be at 50% or more of your
(07:23):
shows turning into applications.
So that's a budget.
But the word budget, most peoplethink of it as tied to dollar numbers.
And that's the problem.
Every aspect of your business, everymetric that makes you money and makes
your investors money has to continuouslyon an ongoing basis, be measured,
tracked with a budget and an actual,and everything has to be visual.
(07:45):
Long answer to your question, butthat's fundamentally how you run any
business.
I know.
I like your answer, Neil.
Bottom line is the data is.
Everything in every aspect of thebusiness is not just looking at the
numbers, but even the leads and eventhe customer experience, whatever
(08:06):
it is, everything has a data point.
Yes.
And I hate using the word data there,even though my own mantra is data
beats gut feel by a million miles.
I find that a lot of people have data.
I actually believe thatanalytics is important.
Analytics is a process oftaking raw data and turning it
into actionable action items.
Analytics is visual.
(08:27):
Analytics is trend charts.
Analytics is, the blue line and thered line, keep the red line above the
blue line or keep the blue line abovethe red line, that kind of messaging.
Is key and it makes people accountableon an ongoing basis Hey, why is the red
line below the blue line this week, right?
What happened?
so so with the data and making that dataanalytical painting a picture that can
(08:53):
be understood Very quickly is the keybecause it's not just gathering the data,
but actually Seeing what the data issaying, and you're mentioning, a lot of
entrepreneurs, a lot of people have data,but what are they doing with that data?
Now, if you're looking at chat GPT, forexample, artificial intelligence, what
(09:16):
you're doing is going to be a commonground for most in the future, correct?
I think so.
I think that this is easier todaythan it's ever been, and it's
cheaper today than it's ever been.
For example.
We are standardized on ananalytics visualization tool
called Google Looker Studio.
Believe it or not, we've been using itfor six years and we paid six zeros.
(09:39):
We paid nothing.
We paid no money.
Looker Studio has more enhancedlevels with more enhanced features.
I've never felt the need to use them.
So I continue to pay 0 forLooker Studio and use it.
It's a visualization tool.
There's also a paid tool called Tableau.
Tableau is very popular in the industry.
A lot of people use it.
These tools are child's play to use today.
(10:00):
For three reasons.
Number one, they're much cheaper.
So that, a tool like Tableau wouldprobably cost 10 times what it
cost today, 20 years ago, right?
And I used to pay that.
So I'm just shocked by howcheap these tools are because
everything's subscription based.
Number two, the the staff that isavailable to work on Looker Studio
or Tableau is very cheap, right?
So we pay 8.
(10:20):
50 to a team in India.
That is our Looker Studio team.
And I don't, I don't go andlook at looker studio code.
I don't think anybody should do that.
Nobody in my company does that.
What I what we do is we go intomeetings and we talk about how
the visualization should change.
What are we really looking for?
We do a brain dump andall of our meetings.
We have an AI tool calledfathom that is recording.
(10:42):
The meeting and creating action itemsat the end of the meeting, we send
the Fathom summary of everything thatwe've said along with the recording.
It's a webpage that Fathom creates.
We just click that link and we sendit to our team in India and say, this
is what needs to happen and boom.
A new version of Looker Studiocomes out at eight and a
half dollars an hour, right?
(11:02):
And then anything that we, and then thelast thing that makes things much easier
today than compared to six months ofcompared to two and a half years ago,
actually, two years and two, two days ago.
So my world changed onNovember 30th, 2022.
I consider myself an extremepower user of ChatGPT.
I use it 15 to 20 times a day, and I useit almost exclusively for my business.
(11:26):
Even though yesterday I was,researching a luxury vacation in
Vietnam and Cambodia using ChatGPT,and I was doing a great job on that.
What ChatGPT does is it allowsyou to structure your ideas and
thoughts into beautiful specs thatyou send out to your team members.
So here's what I do.
This is my process and Ido it 20 or 30 times a day.
(11:47):
So on my phone, I'll tap on chat GPT.
I'll trap tap the new icon.
Once I've tapped the new icon, Iwill hit the voice button, right?
Voice typing, just regular voice typing.
And I will speak.
They usually speak for two,three, four or five minutes.
I walk around while I'm doing it.
That's how I get my steps,a circuit behind me.
This is a big office.
And so I walk aroundand I share my thoughts.
(12:09):
Even completely unstructured, Shahid.
I'm not trying to be structured.
I'm just trying to getstuff out of my head.
What is absolutelybrilliant about Chad GPT 4.
0 is it figures out that I'm beingunstructured and then it structures me.
So after speaking for four to fiveminutes, I give it a set of instructions.
I always include team members.
Timeframes.
I include what the end result islikely to be, what the dashboards are
(12:32):
going to be, what do the dashboardsvisually look like for any project.
And then when I'm done, I say,convert this into a professional spec.
I actually have some words thatchat GPT knows that I've saved
permanently into its memory.
So it knows that it's an analyticsexpert and blah, blah, blah.
These are called prompts.
So I have a very professional promptadded permanently into chat GPT's memory.
(12:52):
So it does a very good job.
It produces a document.
I convert it into Microsoft word.
It does that by the way.
And then I edit it, but I neverever send it to a team member.
Let's say Shahid is my team memberon leasing up a property, or maybe
Shahid is in the development team.
I'm building a property.
I never send that document to Shahid.
Because the way to create scalablecompanies is to have an intermediary.
(13:16):
Who is my intermediary?
His name is Afzal.
A F Z A L. Afzal lives in Pakistan andis PMI certified, which is the Project
Management Institute certification.
Takes about eight yearsto get that certification.
It's very hard.
So he's obviously a great project manager.
I only send the document to him, and thenI CC all of the people that are supposed
(13:39):
to be team members, including Shahid.
I CC them, I send that to my projectmanager, and within 30 minutes, my
project manager reads the entire multipage document, throws it into ChartGPT,
ChartGPT creates a set of Asana tasks.
We use Asana as our project managementsoftware, And a Slack channel pops up.
It's a new Slack channelcreated for this project.
(14:00):
Everybody that I've mentioned asteam members, including Shahid,
are all in the Slack channel.
The document that I sent outis now pinned to the Slack
channel, so it's easy to find.
And all of the Asana tasks that have justbeen created by my project manager for
this task, including dates and names ofpeople, are posted to the Slack channel.
And now each week, theproject manager will go in and
(14:22):
visually update those tasks.
Green checkbox are good.
Red, red crosses are bad.
So visually, I can see howthe project is going, whether
it's running properly or not.
By not sending it to team members, butby sending it to a project manager, I
ensure That somebody is always chasingthis, and I never have to chase it again.
(14:44):
Good.
Excellent.
You have a system in place.
And to find people in India and Pakistanis a struggle as well, and seems like you
have created a team that you can rely on.
I tried to hire from companiesand it didn't work, so I
eventually created my own company.
So I own a company in the Philippinesthat has 22 full time people.
(15:07):
Pakistan is a unique one in that for somereason they have great project managers.
PMI Institute has a largefollowing in Pakistan.
My accountants are always from India.
My project managers are alwaysfrom Pakistan and all of my virtual
staff, which is full time staff,eight hours a day, they get,
healthcare, they get healthcare,they get four weeks off a year.
(15:27):
I pay them more than market.
Those are all in the Philippines.
And then my hackers, mycoders are from Ukraine.
So I find that thisstructure works really well.
So what allows me to do is to scaleall of my different businesses.
So these services arenot inside of a company.
They're spread around all of my companies.
So all of my companiesbenefit from these resources.
(15:49):
Good.
And you speak about build torent model and you say it's
the future of real estate.
It is.
Can you explain why is such astrong investment opportunity
and how can, investors prepare orstart dipping their toe in this?
Yes.
So.
(16:09):
I think most people are awarethat the United States is not
building enough apartments, right?
We're not building enough rentalproduct and we're not building
enough homes to sell to homeowners.
But here are the numbersthat are truly shocking.
There was already a problem before COVID.
But one day before COVID, the UnitedStates was still in a good place.
(16:31):
For young Americans and young Americanfamilies to eventually become homeowners.
We were still in a good place.
People had a real shot.
They don't anymore in the lastfour and a half years, since
COVID started home prices in theUnited States are up about 50%.
The average mortgage Shahid is up 111%.
(16:54):
Why?
Because interest rates have goneup and home prices have gone up.
So when a home crisis go up by50%, interest rates, double your
mortgage in the United States.
Has in four and a half yearsis up 111%, but salaries in the
United States are only up 19.
6%. So your salary is up 20%.
Your mortgage is up 111%.
(17:15):
So in the last four years,18 million American families
Have become forever renters.
And these are not lower income people.
I'm not talking about peoplethat earn 30, 000 or 60, 000.
I'm talking about people that earnsomewhere between 60 and 90, 000
in mid markets in obviously in SanFrancisco or New York, they earn more.
(17:38):
Typically this 60 to 90, 000.
Per family income level used toeventually become homeowners.
They would save up foryears and become homeowners.
But with home prices going up 50percent mortgages doubling or close
to doubling 18 million of thesefamilies have become forever renters.
This is the largest increasein renters in US history ever.
(18:02):
Nothing else comes close.
And I don't expect that to change becausewe are not seeing any decrease in home
prices throughout this Two two and ahalf year long interest rate crisis
We have not seen any decrease in homeprices in the united states We have seen
individual markets like austin go downphoenix go down And now a lot of the
markets that have a very large amountof incoming supply of multifamily did
(18:26):
see some decline in In home prices, butsmall ones, like I don't know of any
market that's declined more than 10%.
I think Austin's declined about 9%.
Most markets that have declined twoor 3%, but first they went up 50%.
And then they went down two or 3%.
So the net gain was still 47, 48,percent, even Austin, which has
declined the most, the net gainis from since COVID is still 36%.
(18:49):
So that's a huge number.
Bottom line is.
That these Americans, thesemid market Americans, they
were never the renter types.
They were always looking for thatstarter single family home and they no
longer have that within their reach.
So now we have a new class of peoplein America, roughly 18 million people
who do not want to live in apartments.
(19:09):
They have plenty of moneyto live in apartments.
If you have a 70 or 80, 000 income, youcan pay, 1, 800 for a nice apartment.
And I'm talking abouteven a class A apartment.
So you can live in a niceclassy apartment, pay 1, 800,
maybe even 2, 000 a month.
That's 24, 000 a year and you're making70, 000 plus, so you'll qualify, right?
But they don't want to live there, Shahid.
They want the American dream ofhome ownership, which they've lost.
(19:32):
So in a new class Has emerged to takecare of these mid market families.
They are not lower income.
They're not upper income.
They're mid market.
And that is called bill to rent.
What bill to rent does is instead ofbuilding fancy apartment complexes, and
I've built plenty of those thousandsof units with infinity pools and
rooftop pools sexy, sexy apartments.
(19:55):
Yeah, plenty of people like them, Shahid.
But not these people.
What these people want, is theywant something that looks and
feels like a single family home.
Which means three things.
They could be 30, but thesethree are the most important.
Number one, at least onecar garage, two if possible.
Number two, nobody livingabove and below you.
(20:15):
Number three, a backyard,nobody above and below you.
And a garage that isa single family dream.
That dream is lost.
I can't bring it back.
I don't have, I'm not a politician,so I can't bring it back.
So what my company is doing isbuilding 10, 000 townhomes for rent.
(20:36):
So everybody has a garage.
Everybody has a backyard.
Everybody has, nobodyrunning above and below them.
No long hallway withthe smell of marijuanas.
No fear that the neighbor'srottweiler will bite you.
That's build to rent.
It is not apartments,even though it's rental.
But it looks like single family homes.
They do share a wall on each side,but 99 percent of noise comes when
(20:58):
people run above you or below you.
It's not from the side.
So imagine groups of townhomes incommunities of 100 to 200 townhomes.
Some of them, if they're 200,even have a pool, even have a gym.
So what single family home is going to geta pool or a gym when you're, your income
is under 85 K. It's not going to happen.
(21:19):
You're not going to buy a singlefamily home with a gym with a gym.
So having a gym, having a pool, havinga clubhouse there, and still having
a home that you live in is amazing.
I'm not bashing apartments.
I have made my career with apartments.
I continue to buy apartments.
There's a lot of lot more people in that.
60, 000 and below income thathave to go to apartments.
(21:40):
So not bashing apartments at all.
But apartments are not a new opportunity.
Apartments are expensive.
Everybody's seen that,we're paying up for them.
Even today with all these interest ratesgoing up, apartments are really expensive
bill to rent though, is brand new.
This asset class only in 2024 and 2023,have we had substantial amounts of
delivery of these townhome type products.
(22:03):
Before that it was avery small asset class.
Now it's beginning to scale.
I think for the next 10 yearsbuilt to rent, especially townhomes
for rent are the new apartment.
They are what America wants.
So why does it say build to rent?
Isn't it basically rental units?
(22:23):
Is there a specific reason why it's built?
It doesn't mean theyhave ownership in that.
They don't have ownership, and Ithink it's a terrible name, Shahid.
I wish that I could say, changethe name to something else, because
technically, if you build to rent,that's also true of apartments.
Don't you think that
every time
somebody builds an apartment, they'rebuilding something to rent it?
(22:46):
So the name itself is very unfortunate.
BTR, or build to rent, isnot a very descriptive name.
But if I had to come up, I don't knowhow to come up with a short name.
It's single family or townhomesthat are built from scratch in
large communities just for rentals.
We've been building apartments forrent for nearly a hundred years.
(23:07):
. But nobody was building largescale communities that are
single family or town homes.
Keeping, keeping rent rents in mind.
What people have, what developersdo is they build a community of 300
homes and they sell each of those
homes.
Yes.
They sell it.
. Or they build 200 town homes and they sell each of them.
But no one has actually built townhomesor single family in large community,
(23:30):
keeping from the very beginning, rentalsin mind, rental product, rental levels
of finishes, rental, heights of ceilings.
That's what's new that we arenow beginning to understand that
in America you had two choices.
You could go buy a single familyhome or rent an apartment.
Those were your two choices for the last.
Now you have a third option.
Now you have a third option inthe middle, which is that you
(23:52):
can rent something that's a townhome or a single family for rent.
In a community where everyone is a renter
and everyone's a renter, howdoes investment, how does
an investment look for that?
Is that, is it a fund?
That you're running.
So we're
definitely running a fund.
We also have individual projects.
Some people like investing in funds.
Some people like investingin individual projects.
So both are available toanswer your questions.
(24:15):
What makes built to rent morecompelling than apartments?
And I do both.
If you go to my website, you'll noticeI'm also building plenty of apartments.
Why would I ever stop buildingapartments as long as there's a need,
what built to rent is better at.
In my apartments, on average,people stay for two years.
In my built to rent communities,they stay for four years.
Because when I do surveys, myapartment people, if I ask them
(24:37):
this question, Is this your home?
Is this your home?
Most people say no.
If I conduct that survey,
in my
townhome communities, andI ask, Is this your home?
Most people say yes.
That's the difference.
The mindset is differenthere in my apartments.
(24:57):
You're getting more, amenities,infinity pools and gyms and
all kinds of, amenities.
My, a lot of my town homecommunities don't have any pools.
They don't have gyms, but theyhave something that Americans want
a home.
No, that's great.
And
That's why it's very compelling prof froma profit perspective, because we all know,
being in the real estate business, thebiggest enemy of profit in real estate.
(25:19):
Is turn, churn, turnover, churn.
Yeah, churn.
When you have people turning over, youlose a month worth of rent, sometimes two.
You have to pay lease up fees.
You have to clean up the property.
You have to repaint the property.
So property where peopleturn over every two years.
Never going to be anywhere near asprofitable as a property where people
turn over every four years also becauserents go up and eventually by raising
(25:43):
rents, three, four, 5 percent every year,you eventually end up with people above
market and they know that they're 5%, 7percent above market, but nobody leaves
because of the last 5 percent becausethe hassle of leaving the cost of moving.
For sure.
It's too much.
So you can get to five, six, 7 percentover market, but you can only do that
if people are staying for a longeramount of time, not one or two years.
(26:06):
This is great, Neil.
I hear the passion in yourvoice and what you're doing
and you created this new class.
Definitely it will require
Uniqueness when it comes to what itprovides uniqueness to someone who's
in the market, if someone has torent, they want, and this is like you
(26:28):
mentioned a mindset, it's a psychologicalthing is when they're renting a
place with a garage and a backyard,it's the feeling you get about your
kids, what they feel, where they are.
They don't feel that, okay, we're just aninterim here and we're going to move on.
They start feeling likeit's a home as well.
And that emotional state, four years,as you're saying, is an average,
(26:50):
but I could see it being going evena lifetime, for example, because
if that's a home, it's a home,
we have some customers that have not leftour built to rent communities since the
time that the communities were built.
Yeah, I believe it.
That does not
happen in our apartments very often at
all.
No.
It happens, but it's very rare.
Yeah.
People don't stay for very longbecause they think that an apartment
(27:11):
is just part of their destiny,their path to their destination.
Yeah.
Where the townhomes are filledwith people that think, okay, I
want to live here for 10 years.
I want to live, they make friends.
One other thing that we seein our apartment communities.
Even though the person next to youis 20 feet away, we don't find a
lot of interaction between people.
Okay.
You might know one other neighboror two other neighbors, but in our
(27:33):
townhome communities, because peoplewalk out to gather them to grab the
mail from their mailbox they havetheir cars parked on the driveways.
The interaction betweenneighbors is much higher.
And so we are finding thatcommunity forming is much
higher in those communities.
And that's what America wants.
We have plenty of land in America.
(27:54):
Construction is very difficulthere, but we have plenty of land.
Why should we go the European routeof having these apartments everywhere?
I think we have a third option.
We should take it.
And so I'm very excited about that.
The company that's building it is calledmission 10 K dot com mission one zero K
dot com, and their mission is to build 10.
Thousand townhomes overthe next four years.
(28:15):
We're making great progress.
We have over 2, 000 units inthe pipeline we think that these
are the most profitable projectsthat we are ever going to work on
Great.
Appreciate it.
Neil.
It was great talking to you today.
Thank you so much for your time Iappreciate what you shared and some
golden nuggets, for investors to Geta nudge into this direction and see
(28:39):
what you're doing, what you're workingon, by the way, is this company,
yours is organization, the 10, 000 K
it's an organization.
We have 246 investors in mission10 K. I am the largest investor.
I'm, largest shareholder and also CEO ofthe company, but it is not my company.
Good.
Excellent.
Neil.
Appreciate it.
(29:00):
Thank you.
And keep in touch.
a a a a a a a a a a a
Every aspect of your business, everymetric that makes you money and makes
(00:03):
your investors money has to continuouslyon an ongoing basis, be measured,
tracked with a budget and an actual,and everything has to be visual.
This is the end of
(00:29):
the video.
Welcome to Super Entrepreneur's Podcast.
Today, I am excited to welcome Neal Bawa.
Neil is known as the mad scientist ofmultifamily, and for a good reason.
He's a technologist turned realestate expert who leads two major
(00:53):
investment companies, GrowCapitusand YouGrow, with a portfolio
valued at over a billion dollars.
What really sets Neal apart is hisdata driven approach to real estate.
He's passionate about usingtechnology and analytics to make
(01:14):
smarter, more efficient decisions.
And his methods are transforminghow people think about investing.
Neal is also a Speaker, a wellsought after speaker and a
educator sharing his insights withthousands of investors every year.
Welcome to our show, Neal.
(01:37):
Thanks for having me on the show.
I'm very excited to be here, Shahid.
It's great to have you.
So you started in the tech worldand then moved into real estate,
where you're making a lot of.
Big impact.
What skills or thought patterns or wayof thinking that helped you from your
(01:59):
tech background in real estate and howit could help others in similar ways?
I think the What I think a lot of theskills that you bring from the technology
world, I was running a company, I wasgrowing it, when I started with the
company in 1999, the division thatI was working for was 10 employees.
(02:21):
When we sold the company 14 yearslater, it had 300 plus employees.
It's about loving what you do.
It's about growing your business.
It's about being metrics and data driven.
I think that.
I've always been the kind of guy thattells my staff, tells my people, imagine
the stupidest CEO you've ever seen, right?
(02:42):
That's me.
I want you to give me massiveamounts of data, but I want you to
break it down into visual chunks.
So I don't allow Excelspreadsheets to be sent to me.
I always have them add a tab, anexecutive dashboard tab at the beginning.
And I say, I only willopen and look at this.
Don't ever expect me to look at the data.
(03:02):
What I want is visualization that allowsme to make good, effective decisions.
And it allows me to do it in a second.
When you look at a car dashboard, you'resupposed to have 1 5th of a second to
look down and then look back at the road.
Because if you look for two seconds,you're going to go hit somebody.
So a dashboard is supposed to be instant.
And so I've really made my career on.
(03:25):
Continuously making my peopleaccountable, whether they're in real
estate or in technology or operations,marketing, sales, accountable and
accountable, not just by sending datato me, but also accountable by having
data published in a Slack channel.
Back then we used to do it over email.
Now everything's done through Slack.
(03:46):
We're on a weekly, monthly,quarterly, and annual basis.
We have over 400 reports that verytransparently show us the people
that are performing and the peoplethat are not performing, right?
And that is a huge benefitto any of my companies.
And I bring that from technology, right?
We use a software called GoogleLooker Studio that builds
(04:07):
dozens dashboards for us.
And that gives me a clear visibilityinto how my properties are doing,
what's the efficiency of leasing,what's the efficiency of, renewals,
what's happening with the developmentprojects, is everything going on track.
And I find that peopledon't do that often enough.
Everyone claims to be an expert at Excel.
(04:28):
I will actually claim I'm not one.
I used to be an Excel expert,maybe 15, 20 years ago, and I
don't write formulas anymore.
I'm an executive.
My job is to take, 300 plusmillion dollars from my investors
and invest it properly inprudent projects that make sense.
And so to do that, I don'tneed to write Excel formulas.
I don't need to be very good atExcel or even analyzing Excel.
(04:51):
What I need to be good at is ensuringthat those Excel spreadsheets are
correct and then gleaning insightsfrom there and creating systems and
processes to improve my business.
This is no different from tech and realestate, and that's really what I do.
I tell people, data beatsgut feel by a million miles.
That's my first mantra.
Data beats gut feel by a millionmiles, because people have too much
(05:11):
focus on gut feel and I don't like it.
And the second is, you can onlymanage what you can measure.
If you can't measureit, you can't manage it.
You have this delusion thatyou're managing something
if you're not measuring it.
And measuring something once has no value.
What you have to do is measureit and then say, okay, is this
something I want to measure weekly,monthly, quarterly, annually?
(05:32):
What is the appropriate timeframe?
And then you should basicallybe able to benchmark it from
all previous measurements.
So we do not create snapshots.
We hate them.
A snapshot only shows you what happenstoday or this week or this month.
We compare it against everything else.
And we have budget versusactual for everything.
A lot of people, Shahid, think thatbudget versus actual is something
(05:53):
that you do for dollar numbers.
What are my budgeted rentsversus my actual rents?
What's my budgeted construction costsversus actual construction costs?
That's such a terrible concept,but it's stuck in people's head
and you have to get it out.
There should be a budgetversus actual for everything.
We have a budget versusactual for how many leads a
property should get this week.
How many of those leadsshould turn into appointments?
(06:16):
How many of those appointmentsshould turn into shows?
How many of those showsshould turn into applications?
And how many of those applicationsshould turn into leases?
This is called L A S A L or LASAL leads.
Appointments, shows,applications, leases, LASAL.
So not only do you need to track all fiveof these numbers, L A S A L, you also
(06:37):
need to track the ratio between them.
We call that L to A to S to A to L.Those ratios then need to have a budget.
This is your budgeted number.
Shahid, you're a property manager, you'rea leasing agent at one of my properties.
Let's say it's a 200 millionproperty that I bought for 30
million, and Shahid's job is.
That when Shahid gets 10 peoplein a week that are shows out of
(07:00):
those five need to turn into apps.
Therefore the L two the showto application ratio is 50%.
Half of the people that came in andsaw the property should turn into
applications, and I'm going to track that.
And there's gonna be a budget.
And your performance is, it has to be 50%.
You can be lower one week, butthen next week you gotta be higher.
So over a month's timeframe, yougotta be at 50% or more of your
(07:23):
shows turning into applications.
So that's a budget.
But the word budget, most peoplethink of it as tied to dollar numbers.
And that's the problem.
Every aspect of your business, everymetric that makes you money and makes
your investors money has to continuouslyon an ongoing basis, be measured,
tracked with a budget and an actual,and everything has to be visual.
(07:45):
Long answer to your question, butthat's fundamentally how you run any
business.
I know.
I like your answer, Neil.
Bottom line is the data is.
Everything in every aspect of thebusiness is not just looking at the
numbers, but even the leads and eventhe customer experience, whatever
(08:06):
it is, everything has a data point.
Yes.
And I hate using the word data there,even though my own mantra is data
beats gut feel by a million miles.
I find that a lot of people have data.
I actually believe thatanalytics is important.
Analytics is a process oftaking raw data and turning it
into actionable action items.
Analytics is visual.
(08:27):
Analytics is trend charts.
Analytics is, the blue line and thered line, keep the red line above the
blue line or keep the blue line abovethe red line, that kind of messaging.
Is key and it makes people accountableon an ongoing basis Hey, why is the red
line below the blue line this week, right?
What happened?
so so with the data and making that dataanalytical painting a picture that can
(08:53):
be understood Very quickly is the keybecause it's not just gathering the data,
but actually Seeing what the data issaying, and you're mentioning, a lot of
entrepreneurs, a lot of people have data,but what are they doing with that data?
Now, if you're looking at chat GPT, forexample, artificial intelligence, what
(09:16):
you're doing is going to be a commonground for most in the future, correct?
I think so.
I think that this is easier todaythan it's ever been, and it's
cheaper today than it's ever been.
For example.
We are standardized on ananalytics visualization tool
called Google Looker Studio.
Believe it or not, we've been using itfor six years and we paid six zeros.
(09:39):
We paid nothing.
We paid no money.
Looker Studio has more enhancedlevels with more enhanced features.
I've never felt the need to use them.
So I continue to pay 0 forLooker Studio and use it.
It's a visualization tool.
There's also a paid tool called Tableau.
Tableau is very popular in the industry.
A lot of people use it.
These tools are child's play to use today.
(10:00):
For three reasons.
Number one, they're much cheaper.
So that, a tool like Tableau wouldprobably cost 10 times what it
cost today, 20 years ago, right?
And I used to pay that.
So I'm just shocked by howcheap these tools are because
everything's subscription based.
Number two, the the staff that isavailable to work on Looker Studio
or Tableau is very cheap, right?
So we pay 8.
(10:20):
50 to a team in India.
That is our Looker Studio team.
And I don't, I don't go andlook at looker studio code.
I don't think anybody should do that.
Nobody in my company does that.
What I what we do is we go intomeetings and we talk about how
the visualization should change.
What are we really looking for?
We do a brain dump andall of our meetings.
We have an AI tool calledfathom that is recording.
(10:42):
The meeting and creating action itemsat the end of the meeting, we send
the Fathom summary of everything thatwe've said along with the recording.
It's a webpage that Fathom creates.
We just click that link and we sendit to our team in India and say, this
is what needs to happen and boom.
A new version of Looker Studiocomes out at eight and a
half dollars an hour, right?
(11:02):
And then anything that we, and then thelast thing that makes things much easier
today than compared to six months ofcompared to two and a half years ago,
actually, two years and two, two days ago.
So my world changed onNovember 30th, 2022.
I consider myself an extremepower user of ChatGPT.
I use it 15 to 20 times a day, and I useit almost exclusively for my business.
(11:26):
Even though yesterday I was,researching a luxury vacation in
Vietnam and Cambodia using ChatGPT,and I was doing a great job on that.
What ChatGPT does is it allowsyou to structure your ideas and
thoughts into beautiful specs thatyou send out to your team members.
So here's what I do.
This is my process and Ido it 20 or 30 times a day.
(11:47):
So on my phone, I'll tap on chat GPT.
I'll trap tap the new icon.
Once I've tapped the new icon, Iwill hit the voice button, right?
Voice typing, just regular voice typing.
And I will speak.
They usually speak for two,three, four or five minutes.
I walk around while I'm doing it.
That's how I get my steps,a circuit behind me.
This is a big office.
And so I walk aroundand I share my thoughts.
(12:09):
Even completely unstructured, Shahid.
I'm not trying to be structured.
I'm just trying to getstuff out of my head.
What is absolutelybrilliant about Chad GPT 4.
0 is it figures out that I'm beingunstructured and then it structures me.
So after speaking for four to fiveminutes, I give it a set of instructions.
I always include team members.
Timeframes.
I include what the end result islikely to be, what the dashboards are
(12:32):
going to be, what do the dashboardsvisually look like for any project.
And then when I'm done, I say,convert this into a professional spec.
I actually have some words thatchat GPT knows that I've saved
permanently into its memory.
So it knows that it's an analyticsexpert and blah, blah, blah.
These are called prompts.
So I have a very professional promptadded permanently into chat GPT's memory.
(12:52):
So it does a very good job.
It produces a document.
I convert it into Microsoft word.
It does that by the way.
And then I edit it, but I neverever send it to a team member.
Let's say Shahid is my team memberon leasing up a property, or maybe
Shahid is in the development team.
I'm building a property.
I never send that document to Shahid.
Because the way to create scalablecompanies is to have an intermediary.
(13:16):
Who is my intermediary?
His name is Afzal.
A F Z A L. Afzal lives in Pakistan andis PMI certified, which is the Project
Management Institute certification.
Takes about eight yearsto get that certification.
It's very hard.
So he's obviously a great project manager.
I only send the document to him, and thenI CC all of the people that are supposed
(13:39):
to be team members, including Shahid.
I CC them, I send that to my projectmanager, and within 30 minutes, my
project manager reads the entire multipage document, throws it into ChartGPT,
ChartGPT creates a set of Asana tasks.
We use Asana as our project managementsoftware, And a Slack channel pops up.
It's a new Slack channelcreated for this project.
(14:00):
Everybody that I've mentioned asteam members, including Shahid,
are all in the Slack channel.
The document that I sent outis now pinned to the Slack
channel, so it's easy to find.
And all of the Asana tasks that have justbeen created by my project manager for
this task, including dates and names ofpeople, are posted to the Slack channel.
And now each week, theproject manager will go in and
(14:22):
visually update those tasks.
Green checkbox are good.
Red, red crosses are bad.
So visually, I can see howthe project is going, whether
it's running properly or not.
By not sending it to team members, butby sending it to a project manager, I
ensure That somebody is always chasingthis, and I never have to chase it again.
(14:44):
Good.
Excellent.
You have a system in place.
And to find people in India and Pakistanis a struggle as well, and seems like you
have created a team that you can rely on.
I tried to hire from companiesand it didn't work, so I
eventually created my own company.
So I own a company in the Philippinesthat has 22 full time people.
(15:07):
Pakistan is a unique one in that for somereason they have great project managers.
PMI Institute has a largefollowing in Pakistan.
My accountants are always from India.
My project managers are alwaysfrom Pakistan and all of my virtual
staff, which is full time staff,eight hours a day, they get,
healthcare, they get healthcare,they get four weeks off a year.
(15:27):
I pay them more than market.
Those are all in the Philippines.
And then my hackers, mycoders are from Ukraine.
So I find that thisstructure works really well.
So what allows me to do is to scaleall of my different businesses.
So these services arenot inside of a company.
They're spread around all of my companies.
So all of my companiesbenefit from these resources.
(15:49):
Good.
And you speak about build torent model and you say it's
the future of real estate.
It is.
Can you explain why is such astrong investment opportunity
and how can, investors prepare orstart dipping their toe in this?
Yes.
So.
(16:09):
I think most people are awarethat the United States is not
building enough apartments, right?
We're not building enough rentalproduct and we're not building
enough homes to sell to homeowners.
But here are the numbersthat are truly shocking.
There was already a problem before COVID.
But one day before COVID, the UnitedStates was still in a good place.
(16:31):
For young Americans and young Americanfamilies to eventually become homeowners.
We were still in a good place.
People had a real shot.
They don't anymore in the lastfour and a half years, since
COVID started home prices in theUnited States are up about 50%.
The average mortgage Shahid is up 111%.
(16:54):
Why?
Because interest rates have goneup and home prices have gone up.
So when a home crisis go up by50%, interest rates, double your
mortgage in the United States.
Has in four and a half yearsis up 111%, but salaries in the
United States are only up 19.
6%. So your salary is up 20%.
Your mortgage is up 111%.
(17:15):
So in the last four years,18 million American families
Have become forever renters.
And these are not lower income people.
I'm not talking about peoplethat earn 30, 000 or 60, 000.
I'm talking about people that earnsomewhere between 60 and 90, 000
in mid markets in obviously in SanFrancisco or New York, they earn more.
(17:38):
Typically this 60 to 90, 000.
Per family income level used toeventually become homeowners.
They would save up foryears and become homeowners.
But with home prices going up 50percent mortgages doubling or close
to doubling 18 million of thesefamilies have become forever renters.
This is the largest increasein renters in US history ever.
(18:02):
Nothing else comes close.
And I don't expect that to change becausewe are not seeing any decrease in home
prices throughout this Two two and ahalf year long interest rate crisis
We have not seen any decrease in homeprices in the united states We have seen
individual markets like austin go downphoenix go down And now a lot of the
markets that have a very large amountof incoming supply of multifamily did
(18:26):
see some decline in In home prices, butsmall ones, like I don't know of any
market that's declined more than 10%.
I think Austin's declined about 9%.
Most markets that have declined twoor 3%, but first they went up 50%.
And then they went down two or 3%.
So the net gain was still 47, 48,percent, even Austin, which has
declined the most, the net gainis from since COVID is still 36%.
(18:49):
So that's a huge number.
Bottom line is.
That these Americans, thesemid market Americans, they
were never the renter types.
They were always looking for thatstarter single family home and they no
longer have that within their reach.
So now we have a new class of peoplein America, roughly 18 million people
who do not want to live in apartments.
(19:09):
They have plenty of moneyto live in apartments.
If you have a 70 or 80, 000 income, youcan pay, 1, 800 for a nice apartment.
And I'm talking abouteven a class A apartment.
So you can live in a niceclassy apartment, pay 1, 800,
maybe even 2, 000 a month.
That's 24, 000 a year and you're making70, 000 plus, so you'll qualify, right?
But they don't want to live there, Shahid.
They want the American dream ofhome ownership, which they've lost.
(19:32):
So in a new class Has emerged to takecare of these mid market families.
They are not lower income.
They're not upper income.
They're mid market.
And that is called bill to rent.
What bill to rent does is instead ofbuilding fancy apartment complexes, and
I've built plenty of those thousandsof units with infinity pools and
rooftop pools sexy, sexy apartments.
(19:55):
Yeah, plenty of people like them, Shahid.
But not these people.
What these people want, is theywant something that looks and
feels like a single family home.
Which means three things.
They could be 30, but thesethree are the most important.
Number one, at least onecar garage, two if possible.
Number two, nobody livingabove and below you.
(20:15):
Number three, a backyard,nobody above and below you.
And a garage that isa single family dream.
That dream is lost.
I can't bring it back.
I don't have, I'm not a politician,so I can't bring it back.
So what my company is doing isbuilding 10, 000 townhomes for rent.
(20:36):
So everybody has a garage.
Everybody has a backyard.
Everybody has, nobodyrunning above and below them.
No long hallway withthe smell of marijuanas.
No fear that the neighbor'srottweiler will bite you.
That's build to rent.
It is not apartments,even though it's rental.
But it looks like single family homes.
They do share a wall on each side,but 99 percent of noise comes when
(20:58):
people run above you or below you.
It's not from the side.
So imagine groups of townhomes incommunities of 100 to 200 townhomes.
Some of them, if they're 200,even have a pool, even have a gym.
So what single family home is going to geta pool or a gym when you're, your income
is under 85 K. It's not going to happen.
(21:19):
You're not going to buy a singlefamily home with a gym with a gym.
So having a gym, having a pool, havinga clubhouse there, and still having
a home that you live in is amazing.
I'm not bashing apartments.
I have made my career with apartments.
I continue to buy apartments.
There's a lot of lot more people in that.
60, 000 and below income thathave to go to apartments.
(21:40):
So not bashing apartments at all.
But apartments are not a new opportunity.
Apartments are expensive.
Everybody's seen that,we're paying up for them.
Even today with all these interest ratesgoing up, apartments are really expensive
bill to rent though, is brand new.
This asset class only in 2024 and 2023,have we had substantial amounts of
delivery of these townhome type products.
(22:03):
Before that it was avery small asset class.
Now it's beginning to scale.
I think for the next 10 yearsbuilt to rent, especially townhomes
for rent are the new apartment.
They are what America wants.
So why does it say build to rent?
Isn't it basically rental units?
(22:23):
Is there a specific reason why it's built?
It doesn't mean theyhave ownership in that.
They don't have ownership, and Ithink it's a terrible name, Shahid.
I wish that I could say, changethe name to something else, because
technically, if you build to rent,that's also true of apartments.
Don't you think that
every time
somebody builds an apartment, they'rebuilding something to rent it?
(22:46):
So the name itself is very unfortunate.
BTR, or build to rent, isnot a very descriptive name.
But if I had to come up, I don't knowhow to come up with a short name.
It's single family or townhomesthat are built from scratch in
large communities just for rentals.
We've been building apartments forrent for nearly a hundred years.
(23:07):
. But nobody was building largescale communities that are
single family or town homes.
Keeping, keeping rent rents in mind.
What people have, what developersdo is they build a community of 300
homes and they sell each of those
homes.
Yes.
They sell it.
. Or they build 200 town homes and they sell each of them.
But no one has actually built townhomesor single family in large community,
(23:30):
keeping from the very beginning, rentalsin mind, rental product, rental levels
of finishes, rental, heights of ceilings.
That's what's new that we arenow beginning to understand that
in America you had two choices.
You could go buy a single familyhome or rent an apartment.
Those were your two choices for the last.
Now you have a third option.
Now you have a third option inthe middle, which is that you
(23:52):
can rent something that's a townhome or a single family for rent.
In a community where everyone is a renter
and everyone's a renter, howdoes investment, how does
an investment look for that?
Is that, is it a fund?
That you're running.
So we're
definitely running a fund.
We also have individual projects.
Some people like investing in funds.
Some people like investingin individual projects.
So both are available toanswer your questions.
(24:15):
What makes built to rent morecompelling than apartments?
And I do both.
If you go to my website, you'll noticeI'm also building plenty of apartments.
Why would I ever stop buildingapartments as long as there's a need,
what built to rent is better at.
In my apartments, on average,people stay for two years.
In my built to rent communities,they stay for four years.
Because when I do surveys, myapartment people, if I ask them
(24:37):
this question, Is this your home?
Is this your home?
Most people say no.
If I conduct that survey,
in my
townhome communities, andI ask, Is this your home?
Most people say yes.
That's the difference.
The mindset is differenthere in my apartments.
(24:57):
You're getting more, amenities,infinity pools and gyms and
all kinds of, amenities.
My, a lot of my town homecommunities don't have any pools.
They don't have gyms, but theyhave something that Americans want
a home.
No, that's great.
And
That's why it's very compelling prof froma profit perspective, because we all know,
being in the real estate business, thebiggest enemy of profit in real estate.
(25:19):
Is turn, churn, turnover, churn.
Yeah, churn.
When you have people turning over, youlose a month worth of rent, sometimes two.
You have to pay lease up fees.
You have to clean up the property.
You have to repaint the property.
So property where peopleturn over every two years.
Never going to be anywhere near asprofitable as a property where people
turn over every four years also becauserents go up and eventually by raising
(25:43):
rents, three, four, 5 percent every year,you eventually end up with people above
market and they know that they're 5%, 7percent above market, but nobody leaves
because of the last 5 percent becausethe hassle of leaving the cost of moving.
For sure.
It's too much.
So you can get to five, six, 7 percentover market, but you can only do that
if people are staying for a longeramount of time, not one or two years.
(26:06):
This is great, Neil.
I hear the passion in yourvoice and what you're doing
and you created this new class.
Definitely it will require
Uniqueness when it comes to what itprovides uniqueness to someone who's
in the market, if someone has torent, they want, and this is like you
(26:28):
mentioned a mindset, it's a psychologicalthing is when they're renting a
place with a garage and a backyard,it's the feeling you get about your
kids, what they feel, where they are.
They don't feel that, okay, we're just aninterim here and we're going to move on.
They start feeling likeit's a home as well.
And that emotional state, four years,as you're saying, is an average,
(26:50):
but I could see it being going evena lifetime, for example, because
if that's a home, it's a home,
we have some customers that have not leftour built to rent communities since the
time that the communities were built.
Yeah, I believe it.
That does not
happen in our apartments very often at
all.
No.
It happens, but it's very rare.
Yeah.
People don't stay for very longbecause they think that an apartment
(27:11):
is just part of their destiny,their path to their destination.
Yeah.
Where the townhomes are filledwith people that think, okay, I
want to live here for 10 years.
I want to live, they make friends.
One other thing that we seein our apartment communities.
Even though the person next to youis 20 feet away, we don't find a
lot of interaction between people.
Okay.
You might know one other neighboror two other neighbors, but in our
(27:33):
townhome communities, because peoplewalk out to gather them to grab the
mail from their mailbox they havetheir cars parked on the driveways.
The interaction betweenneighbors is much higher.
And so we are finding thatcommunity forming is much
higher in those communities.
And that's what America wants.
We have plenty of land in America.
(27:54):
Construction is very difficulthere, but we have plenty of land.
Why should we go the European routeof having these apartments everywhere?
I think we have a third option.
We should take it.
And so I'm very excited about that.
The company that's building it is calledmission 10 K dot com mission one zero K
dot com, and their mission is to build 10.
Thousand townhomes overthe next four years.
(28:15):
We're making great progress.
We have over 2, 000 units inthe pipeline we think that these
are the most profitable projectsthat we are ever going to work on
Great.
Appreciate it.
Neil.
It was great talking to you today.
Thank you so much for your time Iappreciate what you shared and some
golden nuggets, for investors to Geta nudge into this direction and see
(28:39):
what you're doing, what you're workingon, by the way, is this company,
yours is organization, the 10, 000 K
it's an organization.
We have 246 investors in mission10 K. I am the largest investor.
I'm, largest shareholder and also CEO ofthe company, but it is not my company.
Good.
Excellent.
Neil.
Appreciate it.
(29:00):
Thank you.
And keep in touch.
a a a a a a a a a a a
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