June 8, 2025 • 33 mins
An encounter with the smallest material can spark nostalgia: the first bite of saltfish and home, the texture of satin and standing onstage, just the right weight of rain. While these unexpected free-falls into memory can be a lovely surprise, today's guest reaches intentionally into her imagination and shapes memories into gorgeous narratives of fiction and nonfiction. Marcia Douglas is an author, artist and professor of creative writing at the University of Colorado Boulder. Widely published and a winner of many awards, she discusses growing up in Kingstown, Jamaica, writing in community and her playful-profound approach to creative craft.
Visit Marcia's website and learn more about her current creative work.
To buy The Marvelous Equations of the Dread, visit New Directions Publishing.
Learn more about Marcia's research and creative work on her CU Boulder profile.
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Original music composed by Nelson Walker.
Recorded at Interplay Recording and Multimedia.
Written and produced by Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
The Ampersand is a production of the College of Arts and Sciences at the University of Colorado Boulder.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
ERIKA RANDALL (00:03):
A and S.
[AUDIO LOGO]
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
I imagine Marcia Douglas as a child,
anxiously waiting just outsideher school that has no library,
in Kingston, Jamaica.
The typically quiet,observing girl
(00:25):
has been antsy anddistracted all day,
thinking about the bookbus that's just rolling up,
filled with novels andstories so different
from the encyclopediasshe has at home.
Marcia carefully selectsone, takes in the cover,
whispers the title,opens it, and dives in.
(00:46):
Then, walking home withher nose in the pages,
she hears her mother's voice,the neighbors laughing,
reggae in the air, a dog'sbark, the chatter and din
that won't distract her butbecome the sounds that someday
will fill her well of language.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
[APPLAUSE]
MARCIA DOUGLAS (01:07):
This book is The Marvellous Equations
of the Dread--
It is--
ERIKA RANDALL (01:11):
I can't imagine the joy that Marcia
holds as she's writing.
Marcia is an award-winningauthor and hybrid
artist who sits in the playof vivid linguistic flavor.
The intimacy withwhich she writes
about her childhoodhome of Jamaica,
St. Bob Marley, the taste oftamarind, saltfish fritters,
and the holiness of a shoeshinedoesn't just pull you along,
(01:33):
but pulls you into her journeys.
While so many authorswrite about the isolation
and loneliness ofwriting, Marcia
insists that she sits atthe desk in full community
with ancestors, memories,and the characters
that she spinsfrom these spaces.
Anders, oh, I just love her,and I know you will, too.
(01:55):
[THEME MUSIC]
On The Ampersand, we callthis, bringing together
the impossible, thealchemy of adding.
Together, we'll hear stories ofhumans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking of "and"as a simple conjunction in that
conjunction junctionkind of way,
we will hear stories of peoplewho see "and" as a verb,
(02:16):
a way to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally let
the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliverasks, "What is it
you plan to do with yourone wild and precious life?
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating, and collaborating,
it reminds me toreplace a singular
idea of what I think I shouldbecome with a full sensory verb
(02:38):
about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall, and this isMarcia Douglas on The Ampersand.
[THEME MUSIC]
MARCIA DOUGLAS (02:54):
So I'm going to read from the section "Kingston
Ring Tune."
And that's the sectionwhere there are
all of these children's voices.
And I'm reading a sectioncalled "Boy with a Water
Gun in His School Bag.
"See me here, standingat the bus stop.
(03:17):
And I don't really wantto go to school because I
was too hungry last nightto study my seven times,
and today, Miss goingto make us recite it.
Government say not to beatus, but Miss have a ruler.
And sometimes ifyou don't careful,
you feel it sting your shoulder.
(03:39):
I have a play-playgun in my school. bag.
It look real.
And come recess, I'm goingto shoot myself with it.
Anyway, I standingat the bus stop,
thinking on the gun whena man bend down and start
clean my shoes.
Quick time, move andsay, what are you doing?
(03:59):
And he said, just cool.
And he take out a brushand start shine my shoes.
Same [? sir ?] likehis [INAUDIBLE].
He look up at me and say, sevenis a number in the arithmetic.
And it's like he read mymind and know all my worries,
just like that.
(04:20):
The brush have some bristlesthat massage under my skin.
And he shine and shine,and I don't want him stop.
For each time hemove the brush, it's
like me make fromthe number seven.
Every little bit ofme come in sevens.
Seven is the numberof greatness, him say.
(04:42):
And me feel the number sevenjust a'multiply inside me,
past 7 times everything.
And it's like me going on, too.
The numbers can't stop.
No end to the number seven.
No end to my greatness.
An ever sound that tremblelike an electric guitar string.
(05:04):
Seven is the number ofgreatness, the man say again.
You feel how great you is,and the greatness don't stop.
It just multiply and multiply.
And it got all theway out to a place
don't have no edge, and thatmake from the same thing
(05:24):
that sound make from, wherebelly laugh come from,
and music and baby cry.
I start to cry, too.
And the cry turn into a laugh,and the laugh can't stop.
It just multiplylike the sevens.
And when the manfinish shine my shoes,
(05:44):
the little [? maps ?]at his ears
jingling on and onlike a dub thing.
And he said, that'show great you is.
I late, but I go toschool in time for Miss
and her seven times drill.
Miss call oneverybody, one, one.
And when she get to me,she point with her ruler
and says, 7 times 7?
(06:06):
And I say 49, Miss.
Miss, do you know the number7 is the number of greatness?
For by now, I can carry 7 tothe place of the arithmetic,
for it's like I feel withmore than stars in the sky.
And it's like the good thingI feel with can't stop.
It go on and on.
(06:28):
And I know all the numbers.
I just counting themlike lucky Jack sevens.
My uncle is aSeventh-day Adventist,
but their sevens don't multiply.
It's stop and start,stop and start.
This seven go on andon, like a cup of water
that have no bottom, likeshiny things in the sky that
(06:50):
can't stop, like a pomegranatethat can never run out of seeds.
Every time you spitone out, you find more,
like playing in soap waterand the bubbles coming up,
coming up.
I get to find me is the numberseven, multiplied over and over.
No end to me, no stopping me.
(07:11):
And no matter what Missask, it's me the number,
me the factor, me theproduct, me the answer.
Miss coming backdown the row of desks
And when she get to meagain, she said, 7 times 12?
And I say 84.
Then I look at her,and I say, but Miss,
(07:33):
84 really too small for howgreat I am and how great you is.
And Miss look at melike she want faint.
And she say, but Jesus."
ERIKA RANDALL (07:46):
Oh.
It's even better out loud.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (07:52):
Yeah, thank you.
There's a little storybehind this story.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:57):
I want to hear it because it
feels like a magic spell.
The whole time, it feels likeyou're just cooking up something
to an end that I can't even--
I couldn't have imagineduntil I'm there.
And then I'm like, yes,it's so inevitable,
and it's so mysterious.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (08:12):
Yeah, it's one little story
within the story of thebook that I wrote rather
spontaneously.
And it came out ofme, and it's rooted
to an experience I had whenI was a little girl in school
in Jamaica.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:28):
Oh, tell me.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (08:29):
And I think this would have been maybe grade 3.
And I did have a teacherwho would drill us
with our multiplication tables.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:39):
Did she have a ruler?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (08:41):
She didn't have a ruler, but what she had
was a wire strap.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:44):
Hoo, worse.
[LAUGHS] Oh, no.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (08:47):
And at that time in Jamaica, they
were allowed to beatthe children in school.
And so just as in this story,she would go down the rows,
and she would pointto you, and you
had to answer really quickly.
And if you didn'tget it right, you
would get a slap on your back.
And I remember her coming tome, and she said, 7 times 7.
(09:11):
And I was just so scaredI couldn't say it.
I couldn't say 49.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:16):
But you knew it.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (09:17):
I knew it, but I couldn't say it.
[LAUGHS] And she gave me awhip on my back with her--
with her rubber.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:26):
So you gave it back to her in this chapter,
and to yourself.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (09:29):
Right.
It just came out, andI wasn't expecting it.
I wanted to writea children's story,
and somehow this emerged inthe voice of this little boy.
So it's not me, but there'sa little bit of me in it.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:43):
As a ventriloquist act.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (09:44):
Yeah, in a certain kind of way.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:46):
Yeah.
It's such a gift when youhear the stories of writers.
I love to read memoir,next to fiction, and go,
[GASPS] that was your mother?
I thought it wasyour best-- the best
friend of the girl in the bookon the street in that moment.
Your characters are all--
not haunted, butinhabited, maybe?
(10:08):
Do you feel like you're bringingback your stories through them,
or your ancestors?
Or is it, sometimes,you're overtaken like that,
and you write a story andsuddenly, there you are,
but it's not intended--
it just comes through?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (10:23):
I would say it's not intended.
Yeah.
Things happen.
They're nice surprisesalong the way.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:28):
Yeah, you surprise yourself.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (10:29):
Right, I surprise myself.
As a writer, youplan certain things,
and you have certain intentionsof what you want to write.
But in the end, I thinkthat a lot of times,
your characters emerge, andthey tell you the story.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:45):
They reveal.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (10:46):
Exactly.
And that's part of the fun andthe joy of writing a story--
ERIKA RANDALL (10:51):
Is listening to the story.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (10:53):
Right, listening to the story.
Every day is a little bit ofsurprise when you return to it
and you see where it's going,and that's how it emerges.
That's how it comes along.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:05):
So you've had this really incredible life
with objects.
And it feels primaryin my research of you,
and maybe not, butmaybe-- because maybe it's
one of the many threadsof your stories.
But I recalled you talkingin an interview about how
(11:26):
when you came from Jamaica tothis country as a teenager,
you had $10.
But what stood out to me wasthat your mother wrapped it
in toilet paper.
And it was the mention ofthe toilet paper that held me
to your story and to theimportance of what the thing was
and what the thing wasn't.
(11:46):
Can you talk to me about objectsand their role in your life?
And also, did youkeep the toilet paper?
You spent the $10.
[LAUGHS] But the tissue--
is it tucked in somewhere withthe ticket, the return trip?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (11:58):
Right.
I did not keep the toilet paper.
[LAUGHS] The $10 gotspent very quickly--
ERIKA RANDALL (12:03):
Yes, it did.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (12:05):
--because that's all that I had.
I think her impulse towrap it in the toilet paper
had to do with thefact that at the time,
there was some governmentregulation that you were only
allowed to take $50US out of the country.
And she had $10 US.
(12:27):
That's all she had in US money.
So she wrapped it in thispiece of toilet paper safely,
and that's what I had.
And the ticket, I still have.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:38):
You do.
Where does it live in your life?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (12:40):
The ticket is housed in a little file
with important papers.
And that was meant to be myreturn ticket to go home.
But I ended up notreturning home,
and I was an undocumentedimmigrant for many years.
I kept the ticket, though,and I still have the ticket.
(13:04):
When you're undocumented,every little bit of paper
is important somehow.
At least that was my experience.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:14):
It felt like safety?
It felt like identity?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (13:17):
Yeah, identity and this
need to hold on to somethingthat you might need,
and that somehow isevidence of your existence,
that documents you,that does document you
in a certain kind of way.
So I think that was part ofit, holding on to this ticket
(13:38):
even long after it had expired.
But it also-- if I'm tobe my own psychoanalyst,
I would say thatit had something
to do with a reminder of whereI started, where I was from.
And even though theticket has long expired,
(13:59):
also a reminderthat you can always
return, in some kind of way.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:04):
And you do, in memory and in word.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (14:06):
Yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:07):
Is it easy for you to return to the characters,
to the clock tower,to the tree that
was imagined or real, tothe language, to the rhythm,
to tone?
Are there places inyour body that you
hold those stories orthose memories that
are easy to return to?
Or do you have toreally go into a state,
or do you go-- do yougo back to Jamaica,
(14:28):
visit, take in and thenreturn to the page?
How does that live with you?
How does your paststay in your present?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (14:36):
Yeah, it's easy for me to return.
You can't alwaysreturn physically.
But home is a physical place,but also a spiritual place
as well.
And it's a place inside of you.
So I return in that way.
And writing for me is alsoa way of returning home.
(14:56):
That's how I return home.
That's how I go back toHalf Way Tree and interact
with all of those characters.
That's me literally going home.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:08):
So thank you for taking us with you so clearly.
I mean, I have neverbeen to Jamaica.
And many of thestories I've heard
are from Midwesterners whotake trips for spring break,
and it's a verydifferent reality.
You tell a story that is--
or stories, plural, inyour "Electricity"--
that was your dissertation--
(15:29):
"Comes?"
Can you say that full title?
That was--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (15:31):
No, that wasn't my--
ERIKA RANDALL (15:32):
That was your first book of poetry.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (15:33):
It was my first book of poetry,
Electricity Comesto Cocoa Bottom.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:37):
So there are stories there and poems there.
And then in this, The MarvellousEquations of the Dread,
that whole juxtapositionof a place and of home.
So close that theyare necessary,
the beauty and thedevastation that can come,
the detail of what's leftafter a storm that makes one
(16:00):
want to go, even thoughthere's just been devastation.
You hold all of thoseparts next to one another.
Is that how it was foryou growing up in Jamaica?
That there's--everything is so close?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (16:11):
Growing up as a young person,
I was always veryobservant, and--
ERIKA RANDALL (16:17):
You were a writer, or just a watcher?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (16:19):
I was a watcher, a writer in the making.
i was a watcher.
And I think-- early on, youwere talking about detail.
And that's where myrelationship to detail
started, maybe, just bybeing a quiet child who
would observe people andthings and pay attention.
(16:43):
And so I think thatI was definitely
a writer in the making becausethat's what you do as a writer,
in part.
You pay attention.
That's really important.
So yeah, that was my world.
And I actually didn't growup even with a lot of books.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:01):
You didn't?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (17:02):
No, I did not.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:04):
So you didn't-- you mentioned in one interview,
you didn't even know the jobof being a writer was possible.
You were pre-med, in your mind.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (17:10):
Right.
Well, yeah, later on.
But if I'm to push backfurther, to much younger days,
I didn't grow up in ahousehold with a lot of books.
I remember we had aset of encyclopedias
that my parents had bought,and I spent a lot of time
with those encyclopedias.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:29):
That makes a lot of sense
because you havethis encyclopedic
way of holding objects,story, detail, catalog.
Did you just wear those out?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (17:42):
Yeah, those were my go-to spaces,
the encyclopedias.
And at the beginningof the school
year, we always used toget a new set of books.
And that alwaysfelt very precious,
your new books at thebeginning of the school year.
But I didn't have a lotof just books around--
ERIKA RANDALL (18:00):
Fiction, story--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (18:01):
Yeah, that kind of thing.
Every now and then, myparents might purchase
a book for me,[CLEARS THROAT] excuse me,
or something like that.
But I didn't havea lot of books.
I remember when-- maybe fromgrade 1 through 3, I would say,
or grades 1 through 4, I wentto a school which didn't have
(18:24):
a library, but what we had was--
there was a mobilelibrary trucks.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:32):
Yes, I remember those.
Yeah, we calledit the bookmobile.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (18:36):
Yes.
So this was from the JamaicaLibrary Service, I suppose.
And they came veryintermittently, not very often
at all, maybe onceper term, as I recall.
But it was alwaysthis big event.
And you would get topick out one book.
The teacher would letyou pick out one book.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:55):
How did you choose?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (18:57):
Yeah, but it was so exciting.
And I also didn't feel deprived.
I want to hasten to say that.
I felt blessed and lucky thatthe library truck was coming
and I would get to have a book.
So that was one sourceof books for me.
So I didn't have a lotof reading material,
(19:18):
but I loved to read,loved the language.
My other source of languagefor me would be from church.
My father was a preacher, and hewas also a roadside evangelist.
And he would preachon street corners.
And so I thinklistening to people
(19:41):
like him was one of mylanguage wells also.
And all of this-- youdon't know it at the time.
But I look back.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:51):
Yeah, and then you go in and there it is.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (19:53):
Right, on my development of a writer.
And that was definitelyone of the pieces,
listening to himread from the Bible.
And he also wasn't avery good reader either.
He used to struggle with it.
But yeah-- so that wasthe writer in the making,
I would say.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:11):
For you, is writing an act of loneliness?
You talk about communitybeing critical to your work.
And your work is fullof characters, plural,
so it feels likeyou're in with them.
Can you talk tome about this idea
of the necessity of communityin art making and creation,
(20:31):
versus this solo auteur,which can so often be talked
about, alone at the desk,hammering out the hard
and feeling lonely?
Do you feel both or--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (20:40):
I don't feel lonely when I write.
It's one of thosemoments when I would
say I feel most groundedand anchored and happy.
Even if I'm writing aboutsomething not so happy,
I do feel centered in it,and there is a community
(21:01):
in the characters as well.
As I said, I travel back home.
My characters are my community.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:10):
Yes, you feel it.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (21:11):
Right, yes.
So I create communitythere in the work.
But there are othercommunities as well.
In the work thatwe do as teachers,
I feel that I'm already inthis community of emerging
and established writers.
(21:32):
I mentor my students.
I learn from them.
It's reciprocal.
That's community.
The same with mycolleagues as well.
So that's anothercommunity that I have.
So it operates ondifferent levels.
There's the actualcommunity of the book
and what I do there, andalso in the work that I do.
(21:54):
So it's not solitary.
And I never feelalone in that pursuit.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:59):
There's something that you also said that really
made me think about this conceptof anding that we talk about
on this show andthat we think with--
that it isn't-- it's not alist of, I've done this, this,
and this, but it's the waythat textures come together
and weave.
And I feel that in your work.
Your work, even when it's on thewritten page, in two dimension,
feels multidisciplinarybecause of how
(22:20):
you're tracking taste andtouch and sound and rhythm.
And you make the dollsthat show up in a book--
then you actuallymake them from fiber.
You have then embodied as anactor, directed by dear Cecilia.
Do you think of yourself asan interdisciplinary artist,
or an interdisciplinary, orboth, or all of the above?
(22:42):
Yeah, you don't usethat word a lot,
but you talk aroundit, and with.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (22:50):
Right.
I do dabble intoa lot of things.
So I think that a lotof the work that I do
is hybrid, in acertain kind of way.
I write across genres--
poetry, fiction, essay.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:03):
All in one space.
MARCIA DOUGLAS: All in one space. (23:05):
undefined
ERIKA RANDALL (23:07):
I'm so inspired by that.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (23:08):
And writing is my primary genre,
but I'm interested injust making and creating.
And so, I will dosculptural art dolls,
or ink drawings or a one-womanshow or something like that.
None of those things arenecessarily primary to me.
(23:30):
They're these satellitethings, but it's all connected.
I feel that all creativitycomes from the same place.
And I've found thatit's useful for me
to be not afraid of travelingdown some maybe unfamiliar paths
in the spirit of creativityand seeing what's there
(23:53):
and seeing what can happen.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:55):
This is such an invitation
to curiosity andfollowing it, and that it
doesn't have to be good.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (24:01):
Right, exactly.
If you're waitingfor it to be great,
you won't do anything, right?
So just play and have fun.
It sounds simple, butthat's what it is.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:15):
And it also is-- let go of the ego
and the outcome andthe expectation and--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (24:21):
Exactly.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:22):
--which is really hard for a lot of people.
Especially if they fancythemselves good at something,
it's hard to benot good or be new.
So hearing aboutthe fun is just--
it was what I needed today,the permission to play
in the sandbox ofyour own words,
in the sandbox ofyour own memories,
(24:44):
and to create inways that please you.
So one of my favorite things isthis silly game that we play.
You've listened tosome interviews,
so you know about the rulesof the Quick and Dirty.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (24:55):
I think so.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:55):
I will remind you and our listeners.
I'm going to askyou some questions.
You're going to answer.
You want to be quick.
You don't have to be dirty.
But we do appreciate a littleBob Marley cheekbone reference
[LAUGHS] any chance we get.
OK.
Objects in your lifethat can inspire a story
(25:16):
that you haven't used yet.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (25:17):
That I haven't used yet.
Haven't used in a story?
ERIKA RANDALL (25:20):
Mm-hmm.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (25:21):
All right.
I'm going to say my mother'shat and the succulent plant
on my window.
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (25:35):
I love watching you look around
inside the detritus ofmemory and of writing room.
A sound and theplace that you hear.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (25:49):
A sound and the place that I hear.
Oh, OK.
I hear the sound of Chronixx,"Here Comes Trouble,
and cars honking inKingston, and a baby crying.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:15):
That's how you do it, humans listening.
That's how you end and writea poem at the same time.
OK, are you a dessert person,or are you more salty?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (26:27):
I'm more salty.
ERIKA RANDALL: You're more salty? (26:29):
undefined
What are some saltycombinations of things
that no one would know areyour favorite, things that you
put together that are,like, [CLICKS TONGUE]?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (26:38):
Yeah.
Well, salty-- I likesalt fish fritters.
[LAUGHS] Have you ever hadJamaican salt fish fritters?
ERIKA RANDALL (26:50):
No, but I would like them.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (26:52):
Yeah.
That's salty for me.
Salty codfish fish fritters.
And I don't know if thisfits your category or not,
but I'm also thinkingof tamarind balls--
sour tamarind, though.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:08):
And tamarind shows up in your--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (27:10):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:10):
Yeah.
And that tam-- no.
I thought it had an "and" in it.
It doesn't.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (27:14):
OK.
I think I'm not playingyour game right.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:16):
You are.
You're winning the game.
You are winning the game.
You are winning the game.
OK, can you make up a titlefor your next book that has
"and" in it right now?
Just make up a title that maybeyou I'll get to read someday.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (27:31):
Oh, the title that I'm making up.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:33):
Mm-hmm.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (27:35):
And Now I Am a Boss Woman.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:45):
I'm making that one up.
And Now I Am a Boss Woman.
That is right there on my shelf.
Readers, when you read abouta lady with headphones,
that would be me in that book.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (27:57):
Yeah.
[LAUGHS] That's Erika.
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (28:00):
And Now I Am a Boss Woman.
MARCIA DOUGLAS: With the headphones. (28:02):
undefined
ERIKA RANDALL (28:03):
With the headphones.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (28:04):
Bosswoman Erika.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:05):
I'm going to take it.
I can't wait.
I'm going to tell everybody.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (28:08):
DJ Erika.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:09):
DJ Erika in the hizzou.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (28:11):
Boss Woman, DJ Erika.
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (28:13):
Let's do it.
Oh, my God, I can't even wait.
I'm just going to eat offthat meal for the rest
of the weekend, OK.
The soundtrack of your childhoodand the soundtrack of your now.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (28:23):
Soundtrack of my childhood.
Oh, this is stillthe game, right?
[LAUGHS]
And my fatherpreaching and the women
speaking in tonguesand the reggae
on the sound systemdown the road.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:43):
Yes, and now?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (28:44):
And now the reggae on the sound system.
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (28:49):
Yes, yes.
I love.
What are the things that youneed on your writing desk
to get into a flow, thatyou bring to the table
to take off into your world?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (29:01):
A good cup of ginger tea
and pencils and willingness.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:13):
Do you write in pencil?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (29:15):
I love journals.
I'm in love with journals.
I have too many journals.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:20):
I have boxes.
I need them to burn before mychild reads about all my 1990s
escapades and I get arrestedby my teenager for--
[LAUGHS]
--for some-- that oneparticular cocktail party where
everyone looked aroundand thought, oh,
I see why you're here.
What do we have in common?
(29:40):
Do you have those journals?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (29:41):
Yeah, I have all kinds of--
I have journals that I kept as ayoung person, but a lot of very
recent ones, too.
Ideas and all kinds of things.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:50):
So they're all kinds of things there.
They're not just what happenedin the day in your life?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (29:54):
Yeah, they're not necessarily
diaries, as such, butideas of potential projects
or projects in progress.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:04):
Yeah, do you ever think,
where was that one idea,and then there you are, just
flipping through the pages,or do you catalog them
pretty well in your mind?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (30:11):
I'm a rat pack, and I keep things.
And--
ERIKA RANDALL (30:15):
I had a feeling.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (30:17):
--a journal is a good space to keep things.
If I hear a word that I like,an expression that I like,
that sort of thing,it goes in my journal.
So they're like theselittle archives.
ERIKA RANDALL: Yeah, I love that. (30:28):
undefined
Can you think ofthe most recent--
this isn't the game anymore.
We have one morequestion in the game,
but I want to know the mostrecent word you heard that you
liked, that you wrote down.
MARCIA DOUGLAS: The most recent-- (30:37):
undefined
ooh, that's a hard one.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:39):
A word.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (30:40):
You ask hard questions.
ERIKA RANDALL: Well, I'm curious. (30:41):
undefined
[LAUGHS] I'm a curious person.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (30:45):
This word isn't recent,
but one of my favoriteJamaican words
is, boonoonoonoos, which means--
I would say it meanssomething like joy.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:55):
Boonoonoonoos.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (30:56):
Boonoonoonoos.
Boonoonoonoos.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:58):
It feels like something like joy.
So how do I say it soI don't sound wrong,
if I went to Jamaica?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (31:06):
Boonoonoonoos.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:07):
Boonoonoonoos, in what context?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (31:11):
It's hard to say the context.
Language is so spontaneous.
So it's something that youjust know when to say it.
I can't reallyprescribe a context.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:24):
Yes, OK.
I get it, So I will feel it.
MARCIA DOUGLAS: Yeah, you'll feel it. (31:27):
undefined
ERIKA RANDALL (31:28):
I'll feel it.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (31:29):
Yeah, language is feeling, isn't it?
ERIKA RANDALL (31:31):
Yes, it is.
So a blessing you want to sendyour students off graduation,
or you want to send yourdaughter into the world,
you want to send youngyou into your future.
Give us a blessing or a--whatever you want to call it
that starts with and says, andmay the moment that you, da, da,
(31:53):
or, and--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (31:53):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:54):
Yeah, it's yours.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (32:00):
And you are enough, and you are enough,
and you are enough.
And you are here now,and you are enough.
ERIKA RANDALL (32:19):
And that was Marcia Douglas,
Professor of CreativeWriting from the University
of Colorado Boulder.
For more about Marcia,see our show notes.
The Ampersand is aproduction of the College
of Arts and Sciences at theUniversity of Colorado Boulder.
It is written and producedby me, Erika Randall,
and Tim Grassley.
If there are peopleyou'd like us
(32:39):
to interview on TheAmpersand, do please
email us asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker,
and the episodes are recorded atInterplay Recording in Boulder,
Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall, andthis is The Ampersand.
[THEME MUSIC]
(33:01):
ERIKA RANDALL (00:03):
A and S.
[AUDIO LOGO]
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
I imagine Marcia Douglas as a child,
anxiously waiting just outsideher school that has no library,
in Kingston, Jamaica.
The typically quiet,observing girl
(00:25):
has been antsy anddistracted all day,
thinking about the bookbus that's just rolling up,
filled with novels andstories so different
from the encyclopediasshe has at home.
Marcia carefully selectsone, takes in the cover,
whispers the title,opens it, and dives in.
(00:46):
Then, walking home withher nose in the pages,
she hears her mother's voice,the neighbors laughing,
reggae in the air, a dog'sbark, the chatter and din
that won't distract her butbecome the sounds that someday
will fill her well of language.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
[APPLAUSE]
MARCIA DOUGLAS (01:07):
This book is The Marvellous Equations
of the Dread--
It is--
ERIKA RANDALL (01:11):
I can't imagine the joy that Marcia
holds as she's writing.
Marcia is an award-winningauthor and hybrid
artist who sits in the playof vivid linguistic flavor.
The intimacy withwhich she writes
about her childhoodhome of Jamaica,
St. Bob Marley, the taste oftamarind, saltfish fritters,
and the holiness of a shoeshinedoesn't just pull you along,
(01:33):
but pulls you into her journeys.
While so many authorswrite about the isolation
and loneliness ofwriting, Marcia
insists that she sits atthe desk in full community
with ancestors, memories,and the characters
that she spinsfrom these spaces.
Anders, oh, I just love her,and I know you will, too.
(01:55):
[THEME MUSIC]
On The Ampersand, we callthis, bringing together
the impossible, thealchemy of adding.
Together, we'll hear stories ofhumans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking of "and"as a simple conjunction in that
conjunction junctionkind of way,
we will hear stories of peoplewho see "and" as a verb,
(02:16):
a way to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally let
the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliverasks, "What is it
you plan to do with yourone wild and precious life?
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating, and collaborating,
it reminds me toreplace a singular
idea of what I think I shouldbecome with a full sensory verb
(02:38):
about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall, and this isMarcia Douglas on The Ampersand.
[THEME MUSIC]
MARCIA DOUGLAS (02:54):
So I'm going to read from the section "Kingston
Ring Tune."
And that's the sectionwhere there are
all of these children's voices.
And I'm reading a sectioncalled "Boy with a Water
Gun in His School Bag.
"See me here, standingat the bus stop.
(03:17):
And I don't really wantto go to school because I
was too hungry last nightto study my seven times,
and today, Miss goingto make us recite it.
Government say not to beatus, but Miss have a ruler.
And sometimes ifyou don't careful,
you feel it sting your shoulder.
(03:39):
I have a play-playgun in my school. bag.
It look real.
And come recess, I'm goingto shoot myself with it.
Anyway, I standingat the bus stop,
thinking on the gun whena man bend down and start
clean my shoes.
Quick time, move andsay, what are you doing?
(03:59):
And he said, just cool.
And he take out a brushand start shine my shoes.
Same [? sir ?] likehis [INAUDIBLE].
He look up at me and say, sevenis a number in the arithmetic.
And it's like he read mymind and know all my worries,
just like that.
(04:20):
The brush have some bristlesthat massage under my skin.
And he shine and shine,and I don't want him stop.
For each time hemove the brush, it's
like me make fromthe number seven.
Every little bit ofme come in sevens.
Seven is the numberof greatness, him say.
(04:42):
And me feel the number sevenjust a'multiply inside me,
past 7 times everything.
And it's like me going on, too.
The numbers can't stop.
No end to the number seven.
No end to my greatness.
An ever sound that tremblelike an electric guitar string.
(05:04):
Seven is the number ofgreatness, the man say again.
You feel how great you is,and the greatness don't stop.
It just multiply and multiply.
And it got all theway out to a place
don't have no edge, and thatmake from the same thing
(05:24):
that sound make from, wherebelly laugh come from,
and music and baby cry.
I start to cry, too.
And the cry turn into a laugh,and the laugh can't stop.
It just multiplylike the sevens.
And when the manfinish shine my shoes,
(05:44):
the little [? maps ?]at his ears
jingling on and onlike a dub thing.
And he said, that'show great you is.
I late, but I go toschool in time for Miss
and her seven times drill.
Miss call oneverybody, one, one.
And when she get to me,she point with her ruler
and says, 7 times 7?
(06:06):
And I say 49, Miss.
Miss, do you know the number7 is the number of greatness?
For by now, I can carry 7 tothe place of the arithmetic,
for it's like I feel withmore than stars in the sky.
And it's like the good thingI feel with can't stop.
It go on and on.
(06:28):
And I know all the numbers.
I just counting themlike lucky Jack sevens.
My uncle is aSeventh-day Adventist,
but their sevens don't multiply.
It's stop and start,stop and start.
This seven go on andon, like a cup of water
that have no bottom, likeshiny things in the sky that
(06:50):
can't stop, like a pomegranatethat can never run out of seeds.
Every time you spitone out, you find more,
like playing in soap waterand the bubbles coming up,
coming up.
I get to find me is the numberseven, multiplied over and over.
No end to me, no stopping me.
(07:11):
And no matter what Missask, it's me the number,
me the factor, me theproduct, me the answer.
Miss coming backdown the row of desks
And when she get to meagain, she said, 7 times 12?
And I say 84.
Then I look at her,and I say, but Miss,
(07:33):
84 really too small for howgreat I am and how great you is.
And Miss look at melike she want faint.
And she say, but Jesus."
ERIKA RANDALL (07:46):
Oh.
It's even better out loud.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (07:52):
Yeah, thank you.
There's a little storybehind this story.
ERIKA RANDALL (07:57):
I want to hear it because it
feels like a magic spell.
The whole time, it feels likeyou're just cooking up something
to an end that I can't even--
I couldn't have imagineduntil I'm there.
And then I'm like, yes,it's so inevitable,
and it's so mysterious.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (08:12):
Yeah, it's one little story
within the story of thebook that I wrote rather
spontaneously.
And it came out ofme, and it's rooted
to an experience I had whenI was a little girl in school
in Jamaica.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:28):
Oh, tell me.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (08:29):
And I think this would have been maybe grade 3.
And I did have a teacherwho would drill us
with our multiplication tables.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:39):
Did she have a ruler?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (08:41):
She didn't have a ruler, but what she had
was a wire strap.
ERIKA RANDALL (08:44):
Hoo, worse.
[LAUGHS] Oh, no.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (08:47):
And at that time in Jamaica, they
were allowed to beatthe children in school.
And so just as in this story,she would go down the rows,
and she would pointto you, and you
had to answer really quickly.
And if you didn'tget it right, you
would get a slap on your back.
And I remember her coming tome, and she said, 7 times 7.
(09:11):
And I was just so scaredI couldn't say it.
I couldn't say 49.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:16):
But you knew it.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (09:17):
I knew it, but I couldn't say it.
[LAUGHS] And she gave me awhip on my back with her--
with her rubber.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:26):
So you gave it back to her in this chapter,
and to yourself.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (09:29):
Right.
It just came out, andI wasn't expecting it.
I wanted to writea children's story,
and somehow this emerged inthe voice of this little boy.
So it's not me, but there'sa little bit of me in it.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:43):
As a ventriloquist act.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (09:44):
Yeah, in a certain kind of way.
ERIKA RANDALL (09:46):
Yeah.
It's such a gift when youhear the stories of writers.
I love to read memoir,next to fiction, and go,
[GASPS] that was your mother?
I thought it wasyour best-- the best
friend of the girl in the bookon the street in that moment.
Your characters are all--
not haunted, butinhabited, maybe?
(10:08):
Do you feel like you're bringingback your stories through them,
or your ancestors?
Or is it, sometimes,you're overtaken like that,
and you write a story andsuddenly, there you are,
but it's not intended--
it just comes through?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (10:23):
I would say it's not intended.
Yeah.
Things happen.
They're nice surprisesalong the way.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:28):
Yeah, you surprise yourself.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (10:29):
Right, I surprise myself.
As a writer, youplan certain things,
and you have certain intentionsof what you want to write.
But in the end, I thinkthat a lot of times,
your characters emerge, andthey tell you the story.
ERIKA RANDALL (10:45):
They reveal.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (10:46):
Exactly.
And that's part of the fun andthe joy of writing a story--
ERIKA RANDALL (10:51):
Is listening to the story.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (10:53):
Right, listening to the story.
Every day is a little bit ofsurprise when you return to it
and you see where it's going,and that's how it emerges.
That's how it comes along.
ERIKA RANDALL (11:05):
So you've had this really incredible life
with objects.
And it feels primaryin my research of you,
and maybe not, butmaybe-- because maybe it's
one of the many threadsof your stories.
But I recalled you talkingin an interview about how
(11:26):
when you came from Jamaica tothis country as a teenager,
you had $10.
But what stood out to me wasthat your mother wrapped it
in toilet paper.
And it was the mention ofthe toilet paper that held me
to your story and to theimportance of what the thing was
and what the thing wasn't.
(11:46):
Can you talk to me about objectsand their role in your life?
And also, did youkeep the toilet paper?
You spent the $10.
[LAUGHS] But the tissue--
is it tucked in somewhere withthe ticket, the return trip?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (11:58):
Right.
I did not keep the toilet paper.
[LAUGHS] The $10 gotspent very quickly--
ERIKA RANDALL (12:03):
Yes, it did.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (12:05):
--because that's all that I had.
I think her impulse towrap it in the toilet paper
had to do with thefact that at the time,
there was some governmentregulation that you were only
allowed to take $50US out of the country.
And she had $10 US.
(12:27):
That's all she had in US money.
So she wrapped it in thispiece of toilet paper safely,
and that's what I had.
And the ticket, I still have.
ERIKA RANDALL (12:38):
You do.
Where does it live in your life?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (12:40):
The ticket is housed in a little file
with important papers.
And that was meant to be myreturn ticket to go home.
But I ended up notreturning home,
and I was an undocumentedimmigrant for many years.
I kept the ticket, though,and I still have the ticket.
(13:04):
When you're undocumented,every little bit of paper
is important somehow.
At least that was my experience.
ERIKA RANDALL (13:14):
It felt like safety?
It felt like identity?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (13:17):
Yeah, identity and this
need to hold on to somethingthat you might need,
and that somehow isevidence of your existence,
that documents you,that does document you
in a certain kind of way.
So I think that was part ofit, holding on to this ticket
(13:38):
even long after it had expired.
But it also-- if I'm tobe my own psychoanalyst,
I would say thatit had something
to do with a reminder of whereI started, where I was from.
And even though theticket has long expired,
(13:59):
also a reminderthat you can always
return, in some kind of way.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:04):
And you do, in memory and in word.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (14:06):
Yes.
ERIKA RANDALL (14:07):
Is it easy for you to return to the characters,
to the clock tower,to the tree that
was imagined or real, tothe language, to the rhythm,
to tone?
Are there places inyour body that you
hold those stories orthose memories that
are easy to return to?
Or do you have toreally go into a state,
or do you go-- do yougo back to Jamaica,
(14:28):
visit, take in and thenreturn to the page?
How does that live with you?
How does your paststay in your present?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (14:36):
Yeah, it's easy for me to return.
You can't alwaysreturn physically.
But home is a physical place,but also a spiritual place
as well.
And it's a place inside of you.
So I return in that way.
And writing for me is alsoa way of returning home.
(14:56):
That's how I return home.
That's how I go back toHalf Way Tree and interact
with all of those characters.
That's me literally going home.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:08):
So thank you for taking us with you so clearly.
I mean, I have neverbeen to Jamaica.
And many of thestories I've heard
are from Midwesterners whotake trips for spring break,
and it's a verydifferent reality.
You tell a story that is--
or stories, plural, inyour "Electricity"--
that was your dissertation--
(15:29):
"Comes?"
Can you say that full title?
That was--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (15:31):
No, that wasn't my--
ERIKA RANDALL (15:32):
That was your first book of poetry.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (15:33):
It was my first book of poetry,
Electricity Comesto Cocoa Bottom.
ERIKA RANDALL (15:37):
So there are stories there and poems there.
And then in this, The MarvellousEquations of the Dread,
that whole juxtapositionof a place and of home.
So close that theyare necessary,
the beauty and thedevastation that can come,
the detail of what's leftafter a storm that makes one
(16:00):
want to go, even thoughthere's just been devastation.
You hold all of thoseparts next to one another.
Is that how it was foryou growing up in Jamaica?
That there's--everything is so close?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (16:11):
Growing up as a young person,
I was always veryobservant, and--
ERIKA RANDALL (16:17):
You were a writer, or just a watcher?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (16:19):
I was a watcher, a writer in the making.
i was a watcher.
And I think-- early on, youwere talking about detail.
And that's where myrelationship to detail
started, maybe, just bybeing a quiet child who
would observe people andthings and pay attention.
(16:43):
And so I think thatI was definitely
a writer in the making becausethat's what you do as a writer,
in part.
You pay attention.
That's really important.
So yeah, that was my world.
And I actually didn't growup even with a lot of books.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:01):
You didn't?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (17:02):
No, I did not.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:04):
So you didn't-- you mentioned in one interview,
you didn't even know the jobof being a writer was possible.
You were pre-med, in your mind.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (17:10):
Right.
Well, yeah, later on.
But if I'm to push backfurther, to much younger days,
I didn't grow up in ahousehold with a lot of books.
I remember we had aset of encyclopedias
that my parents had bought,and I spent a lot of time
with those encyclopedias.
ERIKA RANDALL (17:29):
That makes a lot of sense
because you havethis encyclopedic
way of holding objects,story, detail, catalog.
Did you just wear those out?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (17:42):
Yeah, those were my go-to spaces,
the encyclopedias.
And at the beginningof the school
year, we always used toget a new set of books.
And that alwaysfelt very precious,
your new books at thebeginning of the school year.
But I didn't have a lotof just books around--
ERIKA RANDALL (18:00):
Fiction, story--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (18:01):
Yeah, that kind of thing.
Every now and then, myparents might purchase
a book for me,[CLEARS THROAT] excuse me,
or something like that.
But I didn't havea lot of books.
I remember when-- maybe fromgrade 1 through 3, I would say,
or grades 1 through 4, I wentto a school which didn't have
(18:24):
a library, but what we had was--
there was a mobilelibrary trucks.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:32):
Yes, I remember those.
Yeah, we calledit the bookmobile.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (18:36):
Yes.
So this was from the JamaicaLibrary Service, I suppose.
And they came veryintermittently, not very often
at all, maybe onceper term, as I recall.
But it was alwaysthis big event.
And you would get topick out one book.
The teacher would letyou pick out one book.
ERIKA RANDALL (18:55):
How did you choose?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (18:57):
Yeah, but it was so exciting.
And I also didn't feel deprived.
I want to hasten to say that.
I felt blessed and lucky thatthe library truck was coming
and I would get to have a book.
So that was one sourceof books for me.
So I didn't have a lotof reading material,
(19:18):
but I loved to read,loved the language.
My other source of languagefor me would be from church.
My father was a preacher, and hewas also a roadside evangelist.
And he would preachon street corners.
And so I thinklistening to people
(19:41):
like him was one of mylanguage wells also.
And all of this-- youdon't know it at the time.
But I look back.
ERIKA RANDALL (19:51):
Yeah, and then you go in and there it is.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (19:53):
Right, on my development of a writer.
And that was definitelyone of the pieces,
listening to himread from the Bible.
And he also wasn't avery good reader either.
He used to struggle with it.
But yeah-- so that wasthe writer in the making,
I would say.
ERIKA RANDALL (20:11):
For you, is writing an act of loneliness?
You talk about communitybeing critical to your work.
And your work is fullof characters, plural,
so it feels likeyou're in with them.
Can you talk tome about this idea
of the necessity of communityin art making and creation,
(20:31):
versus this solo auteur,which can so often be talked
about, alone at the desk,hammering out the hard
and feeling lonely?
Do you feel both or--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (20:40):
I don't feel lonely when I write.
It's one of thosemoments when I would
say I feel most groundedand anchored and happy.
Even if I'm writing aboutsomething not so happy,
I do feel centered in it,and there is a community
(21:01):
in the characters as well.
As I said, I travel back home.
My characters are my community.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:10):
Yes, you feel it.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (21:11):
Right, yes.
So I create communitythere in the work.
But there are othercommunities as well.
In the work thatwe do as teachers,
I feel that I'm already inthis community of emerging
and established writers.
(21:32):
I mentor my students.
I learn from them.
It's reciprocal.
That's community.
The same with mycolleagues as well.
So that's anothercommunity that I have.
So it operates ondifferent levels.
There's the actualcommunity of the book
and what I do there, andalso in the work that I do.
(21:54):
So it's not solitary.
And I never feelalone in that pursuit.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (21:59):
There's something that you also said that really
made me think about this conceptof anding that we talk about
on this show andthat we think with--
that it isn't-- it's not alist of, I've done this, this,
and this, but it's the waythat textures come together
and weave.
And I feel that in your work.
Your work, even when it's on thewritten page, in two dimension,
feels multidisciplinarybecause of how
(22:20):
you're tracking taste andtouch and sound and rhythm.
And you make the dollsthat show up in a book--
then you actuallymake them from fiber.
You have then embodied as anactor, directed by dear Cecilia.
Do you think of yourself asan interdisciplinary artist,
or an interdisciplinary, orboth, or all of the above?
(22:42):
Yeah, you don't usethat word a lot,
but you talk aroundit, and with.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (22:50):
Right.
I do dabble intoa lot of things.
So I think that a lotof the work that I do
is hybrid, in acertain kind of way.
I write across genres--
poetry, fiction, essay.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:03):
All in one space.
MARCIA DOUGLAS: All in one space. (23:05):
undefined
ERIKA RANDALL (23:07):
I'm so inspired by that.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (23:08):
And writing is my primary genre,
but I'm interested injust making and creating.
And so, I will dosculptural art dolls,
or ink drawings or a one-womanshow or something like that.
None of those things arenecessarily primary to me.
(23:30):
They're these satellitethings, but it's all connected.
I feel that all creativitycomes from the same place.
And I've found thatit's useful for me
to be not afraid of travelingdown some maybe unfamiliar paths
in the spirit of creativityand seeing what's there
(23:53):
and seeing what can happen.
ERIKA RANDALL (23:55):
This is such an invitation
to curiosity andfollowing it, and that it
doesn't have to be good.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (24:01):
Right, exactly.
If you're waitingfor it to be great,
you won't do anything, right?
So just play and have fun.
It sounds simple, butthat's what it is.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:15):
And it also is-- let go of the ego
and the outcome andthe expectation and--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (24:21):
Exactly.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:22):
--which is really hard for a lot of people.
Especially if they fancythemselves good at something,
it's hard to benot good or be new.
So hearing aboutthe fun is just--
it was what I needed today,the permission to play
in the sandbox ofyour own words,
in the sandbox ofyour own memories,
(24:44):
and to create inways that please you.
So one of my favorite things isthis silly game that we play.
You've listened tosome interviews,
so you know about the rulesof the Quick and Dirty.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (24:55):
I think so.
ERIKA RANDALL (24:55):
I will remind you and our listeners.
I'm going to askyou some questions.
You're going to answer.
You want to be quick.
You don't have to be dirty.
But we do appreciate a littleBob Marley cheekbone reference
[LAUGHS] any chance we get.
OK.
Objects in your lifethat can inspire a story
(25:16):
that you haven't used yet.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (25:17):
That I haven't used yet.
Haven't used in a story?
ERIKA RANDALL (25:20):
Mm-hmm.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (25:21):
All right.
I'm going to say my mother'shat and the succulent plant
on my window.
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (25:35):
I love watching you look around
inside the detritus ofmemory and of writing room.
A sound and theplace that you hear.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (25:49):
A sound and the place that I hear.
Oh, OK.
I hear the sound of Chronixx,"Here Comes Trouble,
and cars honking inKingston, and a baby crying.
ERIKA RANDALL (26:15):
That's how you do it, humans listening.
That's how you end and writea poem at the same time.
OK, are you a dessert person,or are you more salty?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (26:27):
I'm more salty.
ERIKA RANDALL: You're more salty? (26:29):
undefined
What are some saltycombinations of things
that no one would know areyour favorite, things that you
put together that are,like, [CLICKS TONGUE]?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (26:38):
Yeah.
Well, salty-- I likesalt fish fritters.
[LAUGHS] Have you ever hadJamaican salt fish fritters?
ERIKA RANDALL (26:50):
No, but I would like them.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (26:52):
Yeah.
That's salty for me.
Salty codfish fish fritters.
And I don't know if thisfits your category or not,
but I'm also thinkingof tamarind balls--
sour tamarind, though.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:08):
And tamarind shows up in your--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (27:10):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:10):
Yeah.
And that tam-- no.
I thought it had an "and" in it.
It doesn't.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (27:14):
OK.
I think I'm not playingyour game right.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:16):
You are.
You're winning the game.
You are winning the game.
You are winning the game.
OK, can you make up a titlefor your next book that has
"and" in it right now?
Just make up a title that maybeyou I'll get to read someday.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (27:31):
Oh, the title that I'm making up.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:33):
Mm-hmm.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (27:35):
And Now I Am a Boss Woman.
ERIKA RANDALL (27:45):
I'm making that one up.
And Now I Am a Boss Woman.
That is right there on my shelf.
Readers, when you read abouta lady with headphones,
that would be me in that book.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (27:57):
Yeah.
[LAUGHS] That's Erika.
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (28:00):
And Now I Am a Boss Woman.
MARCIA DOUGLAS: With the headphones. (28:02):
undefined
ERIKA RANDALL (28:03):
With the headphones.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (28:04):
Bosswoman Erika.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:05):
I'm going to take it.
I can't wait.
I'm going to tell everybody.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (28:08):
DJ Erika.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:09):
DJ Erika in the hizzou.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (28:11):
Boss Woman, DJ Erika.
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (28:13):
Let's do it.
Oh, my God, I can't even wait.
I'm just going to eat offthat meal for the rest
of the weekend, OK.
The soundtrack of your childhoodand the soundtrack of your now.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (28:23):
Soundtrack of my childhood.
Oh, this is stillthe game, right?
[LAUGHS]
And my fatherpreaching and the women
speaking in tonguesand the reggae
on the sound systemdown the road.
ERIKA RANDALL (28:43):
Yes, and now?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (28:44):
And now the reggae on the sound system.
[LAUGHS]
ERIKA RANDALL (28:49):
Yes, yes.
I love.
What are the things that youneed on your writing desk
to get into a flow, thatyou bring to the table
to take off into your world?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (29:01):
A good cup of ginger tea
and pencils and willingness.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:13):
Do you write in pencil?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (29:15):
I love journals.
I'm in love with journals.
I have too many journals.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:20):
I have boxes.
I need them to burn before mychild reads about all my 1990s
escapades and I get arrestedby my teenager for--
[LAUGHS]
--for some-- that oneparticular cocktail party where
everyone looked aroundand thought, oh,
I see why you're here.
What do we have in common?
(29:40):
Do you have those journals?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (29:41):
Yeah, I have all kinds of--
I have journals that I kept as ayoung person, but a lot of very
recent ones, too.
Ideas and all kinds of things.
ERIKA RANDALL (29:50):
So they're all kinds of things there.
They're not just what happenedin the day in your life?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (29:54):
Yeah, they're not necessarily
diaries, as such, butideas of potential projects
or projects in progress.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:04):
Yeah, do you ever think,
where was that one idea,and then there you are, just
flipping through the pages,or do you catalog them
pretty well in your mind?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (30:11):
I'm a rat pack, and I keep things.
And--
ERIKA RANDALL (30:15):
I had a feeling.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (30:17):
--a journal is a good space to keep things.
If I hear a word that I like,an expression that I like,
that sort of thing,it goes in my journal.
So they're like theselittle archives.
ERIKA RANDALL: Yeah, I love that. (30:28):
undefined
Can you think ofthe most recent--
this isn't the game anymore.
We have one morequestion in the game,
but I want to know the mostrecent word you heard that you
liked, that you wrote down.
MARCIA DOUGLAS: The most recent-- (30:37):
undefined
ooh, that's a hard one.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:39):
A word.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (30:40):
You ask hard questions.
ERIKA RANDALL: Well, I'm curious. (30:41):
undefined
[LAUGHS] I'm a curious person.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (30:45):
This word isn't recent,
but one of my favoriteJamaican words
is, boonoonoonoos, which means--
I would say it meanssomething like joy.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:55):
Boonoonoonoos.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (30:56):
Boonoonoonoos.
Boonoonoonoos.
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (30:58):
It feels like something like joy.
So how do I say it soI don't sound wrong,
if I went to Jamaica?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (31:06):
Boonoonoonoos.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:07):
Boonoonoonoos, in what context?
MARCIA DOUGLAS (31:11):
It's hard to say the context.
Language is so spontaneous.
So it's something that youjust know when to say it.
I can't reallyprescribe a context.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:24):
Yes, OK.
I get it, So I will feel it.
MARCIA DOUGLAS: Yeah, you'll feel it. (31:27):
undefined
ERIKA RANDALL (31:28):
I'll feel it.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (31:29):
Yeah, language is feeling, isn't it?
ERIKA RANDALL (31:31):
Yes, it is.
So a blessing you want to sendyour students off graduation,
or you want to send yourdaughter into the world,
you want to send youngyou into your future.
Give us a blessing or a--whatever you want to call it
that starts with and says, andmay the moment that you, da, da,
(31:53):
or, and--
MARCIA DOUGLAS (31:53):
Yeah.
ERIKA RANDALL (31:54):
Yeah, it's yours.
MARCIA DOUGLAS (32:00):
And you are enough, and you are enough,
and you are enough.
And you are here now,and you are enough.
ERIKA RANDALL (32:19):
And that was Marcia Douglas,
Professor of CreativeWriting from the University
of Colorado Boulder.
For more about Marcia,see our show notes.
The Ampersand is aproduction of the College
of Arts and Sciences at theUniversity of Colorado Boulder.
It is written and producedby me, Erika Randall,
and Tim Grassley.
If there are peopleyou'd like us
(32:39):
to interview on TheAmpersand, do please
email us asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker,
and the episodes are recorded atInterplay Recording in Boulder,
Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall, andthis is The Ampersand.
[THEME MUSIC]
(33:01):
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