November 10, 2023 • 38 mins
How do you pass your values on to those you love? Or live out those same values in your workplace?
On today's episode, Bernadette Stewart, assistant dean of people, engagement and culture at the University of Colorado Boulder, discusses the manner we not only articulate what we hold most dear, but live out our "North Stars" on a daily basis. From growing up in a military family to parenting to music/streaming lists to self-care and living larger, Stewart shares the experiences and lessons she gleaned over a lifetime helping people reflect on who they have become.
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Learn more about Bernadette Stewart by reading Bernadette's bio.
Connect with Bernadette on LinkedIn.
Music by Nelson Walker.
Episodes recorded at Interplay Recording in Boulder, CO.
Written and produced by Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(typewriter keys clicking)
(00:03):
- "A&S"(typewriter buzzes and dings)
(record player crackling)
(upbeat music)(bright music)
(00:25):
I imagine young Bernadette Stewart,
silver slippers clicking together
in front of her family'snew Zenith color TV,
watching "The Wiz" for the first time,
her face is mirrored inthe TV screen's glass
by Diana Ross as Dorothy, singing "Home."
A military kid, I imagine Bernadette
looking for home everywhere she goes,
and learning early on that wemust look inside our hearts
(00:46):
to find a world of love likeyours, like mine, like home.
Bernadette wears hercommitment to connection
and vulnerability on hersleeve right next to her heart,
and it's this empathy thatmakes her a fierce advocate
for all that's important to her,
equity, access, family,community, and finding the fun.
(bright music continues)
(01:14):
Bowing to Bernadette.- That was a great-
- Oh God, this is even,seriously, can I look away?
What should I do?
- (indistinct) like you're talking to me.
- Try to enjoy it and just look naturally.
- Oh my gosh, okay, I'm gonna talk-
- Put your hands in your pockets.
- This is so weird, oh my God.
- I can't imagine what it'slike inside Bernadette's mind,
navigating her binge list of music,
true crime and British TV shows,
serving on community leadership boards,
(01:35):
guiding staff through personnel cases
at the University of Colorado Boulder,
and holding her deep concernfor the humans of her life.
As you'll hear in today's episode,
her mind relentlessly merges and connects
these facets of her being,(bright music)
the values that are her north star.
I am a total fan girlfor this campus leader
and Assistant Dean of People,Engagement, and Culture.
And I can't imagine Bernadette anywhere,
(01:56):
but on the front lines ofreciprocity and authenticity,
ready to do battle for the structures,
relationships, and people she cares for.
On "The Ampersand,"
we call this bringingtogether of the impossible,
the alchemy of anding.
Together, we'll hear stories of humans
who imagine and create bycolliding their interests.
(02:18):
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunction junction kind of way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
a way to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally
let the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks,"What is it you plan to do
"with your one wild and precious life?"
(02:39):
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating, and collaborating,
it reminds me to replace a singular idea
of what I think I should be become
with a full sensoryverb about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall, andthis is Bernadette Stewart
on "The Ampersand."
(03:04):
- Well, I think it's interesting.
I think you're going alittle bit to how I grew up
and how I was formed.
And what I'll say is, I havea family, I am biracial,
so I'm Black and Mexican,and I didn't really fit in.
I grew up in the 80s andnot my favorite decade,
(03:28):
so neon, big hair-- 90s is your favorite.
- So yeah, I just didn't fit in.
I'm a military brat,so I moved around a lot
and trying to find connection
and just a place was challenging.
Although, I have to say,
I do think that it made me adaptable,
(03:50):
and so that's part of it
is that being able to see different,
different people, beingin different environments,
searching for a connection and making sure
that I show up authentically in the hope
that someone else will want to connect.
I think that's part of it.
(04:10):
- Yeah, an invitation.- Yeah, yeah,
I think that's maybe the baseline.
- This morning, I waslistening to the playlist
that you shared.- Oh, that's just a short one.
- I know, 'cause you'reall about the playlist.
We're gonna bookmark music.
But the one that I wasreally thinking about,
I was imagining you inthe 80s watching "The Wiz"
for maybe the first time.
(04:30):
And I have major "Wiz" connections.
My first serious ballet teacher
was an Ozite in "The Wiz," China White.
She was a dancer in the Harlem Ballet,
got to be in "The Wiz."
I remember when we could get the VHS tape
and pausing to see her in the moment.
You love the song "Home," butdo you love "The Wiz" also?
(04:52):
- Well, so my family hasalways been really intentional
about showing up and witnessing things
that have Black people in them.
So it was more like, it was very important
for us to watch it and be a part of it
versus how it actually really landed.
So I think that I havea sort of voyeuristic
(05:17):
sense of "The Wiz."- Yeah, the song "Home."
- The song "Home," I willcry every time I hear it,
but only if Diana Ross is singing.
- Diana Ross, not the Whitney version.
- That's right.- Okay,
that's what I wondered,Diana Ross forever.
And when you talk aboutbeing a military brat
and not having one home base,
do you think that thatresonates even more,
(05:37):
this idea that home is in the people,
it's in you, it's in me, it's in home
that we bring that home with us
or we're looking for it in each other.
Is it the lyrics that get you
or is it just the way Diana's sobbing
and singing like a badass?
- I think it's all, it's all of those.
And I will say, yes, it is in the people.
For me, everything is about people.
(05:59):
I have a younger brother,so I have a smaller family.
And again, we were very tight,my dad, mom, and brother.
And so, it's not that Ididn't feel a sense of home,
but I've always really wanted,I love people's messiness.
I love big, I always-- Even basement messiness?
(06:21):
- Oh, well, so I've said a lot
about my family being a lot to you all.
They are, but I also think
that they're the mostextraordinary people to watch and-
- Because of their mess.- Yes,
because it's just, it's humanity, right,
and so I always thought thatI wanted a big family myself.
(06:43):
My mom and my dad have giant family,
so I have a lot ofcousins, things like that.
And so, friends are family,
friends, you can choose family members.
And so, yes, I think thatcreating a home, wherever I am,
work, play, home, home is justthe way that makes me happy.
(07:07):
- When you said, "I like the messiness,"
you said earlier, "I likesystems, 'cause it can be clean."
So do you like the messy to clean it,
or do you like to clean something
and then mess it up with the humanity,
or do you see that this isa paradox that just exists,
and that is humanity orthe struggle against nature
of humans to try tomake it clean, the mess?
(07:28):
- I like the messy to make clean.
And your question is reallymaking me think about,
like I always have understood
that part of my stressmanagement is cleaning,
is making sense andorganizing and realizing
and recognizing almostimmediately it gets messy again.
(07:52):
So it's this process that never stops,
and I think that, I guessI never realized that
that's the way that it is,
and that's maybe a beautiful thing.
It's the thing that's sort of constant.
- Yeah, it is, and there's this notion
in care that comes up whenwe're looking to also repair,
(08:15):
care and repair, that it's just the stance
that's constantly happening,
and if you can feel it in your human life
and then you can bringit into your work life,
is it also then hard sometimeswhen we call work home?
I've run into that inmy own where I think,
I'll be like, in this house,
and then we treat each other like family,
but that means we're gonna fight.
(08:36):
But that also means what do I do
when I need it to bepersonnel, not personal.
How do you navigate that?I struggle with that.
'Cause there's sometimes whereI am so eager to find family
in the people I work with,
because we're with eachother all the time,
and I call where I work at the house.
But then sometimes maybenot, maybe it's not,
and do you have a feeling about, help me.
(08:56):
- Yeah, the way that I think about it is,
especially in our diversity,equity, inclusion work,
when you're building home in your family
or in your friends or at work,
the foundation of that is trust.
And so it can't, in my opinion,
(09:17):
cannot happen if you don't have trust.
So, you might want home,
a version of home or house to be at work,
but if the other folks inthat mix are not aligned,
then I think that's therub and the struggle.
- It doesn't have to imply intimacy,
(09:38):
but in order to get at the hardthings, trust, ground floor.
- Right, right, ground floor.
I do think that if youhave to fight at work,
it's not personal, it'sactually we understand
what positionality eachindividual that trust each other.
And the word that comes upfor me a lot in my work is,
(10:00):
or in the way that I thinkabout the way I show up,
is reciprocity, so I expect it,
but I think that we don't do,like I don't think it's given.
And so, we can show up attrusting the process, the people,
but there's always the other side of it.
(10:21):
- Yeah, and we can't control that side,
but we can keep showing up and showing up.
When you meet someone, you show up
not just by sharing who youare, but you start taking notes
about them somehow, somewhere.
I don't know what your method is,
but there's a thing, oh, I'll get squishy,
but my mom died last month,
(10:42):
and you gave me flowers this week,
'cause that's when people forget,
and that's when you remembered.
That's just like, you can say,"Well," but that's something.
That's care, that's tending to things
when other people maybe aren't looking,
and it's an amazing thing about you.
(11:03):
- I don't know what to say about that,
other than I will say I wasn't thoughtful
in terms of the timing.
What it was, was I was thinking about you,
so the universe was maybetending to the timing.
- So, but you acted on the thought.
And so that's the thing that I see in you
that is so extraordinary and tender.
(11:26):
And then it's like, how do you hold that,
and what does that look like for yourself?
How do you tend to yourselfwith that kind of care?
You have been in Boulder as a Black woman
(laughs) for a lot of years.
Like I said, you loom large in a room.
You bring the care and the ferocity.
How do you tend to yourself,
how do you listen to those things,
(11:46):
like, ah, Bernadette needssome gladiolas today.
Or do you, I hope you do.
- (laughs) Yeah, oh well, yeah.
We can get into a lot of my,if you want, my addictions
with entertainment.- (laughs) TikTok.
- Yeah, no, I'm not a, well,
maybe I am a social media, like a shopper,
but no, not like that, but TV and music
(12:08):
and oh my gosh, I have alot, so that's maybe how I'm-
- You have a queue.- Yes.
- Yeah, you have a queue.- My self-care queue.
So I guess I'll start by saying,
again, girl, I constantly come back to,
when I think about thingswhen I'm reflecting,
come back to the way that I was raised.
So my dad's Black.
(12:29):
He was an enlistedsoldier, not an officer.
That's really important.
So Black man, when heenlisted, no other options.
And so, I learned-- Was that in the 70s?
- That would be in the 60s.- So he had one choice,
one box that you could-- That's right, that's right.
He enlisted, and when he retired,he was a master sergeant.
(12:56):
So he's no longer here.
He passed away way too young,because he was an alcoholic.
It was probably stemming from
doing a couple tours inVietnam, that story basically.
But he always taught usthat we deserve dignity.
We are equal, every one of us.
(13:16):
So I think, to answer yourquestion, that's where it starts.
Everyone deserves dignity. I do.
And I will assume thatI will get it, period.
And if I don't, that'syour problem, not mine.
And every day, that's how I show up.
So that's how it starts,
me being here for a really long time.
(13:38):
I will say that I alsorecognize that I have privilege,
and I say words in our job allthe time, like perspective.
And so it's about recognizing
that we all have some privilege in a room-
- And reconciling that in ourselves.
(13:58):
- That's right, that's right.
And being brave and usingthat privilege to help lift
or clear a path for someone that has less.
And so, the other thingis I'm just confident
in my intentions alwaysbecause of my north star,
(14:19):
because of my values.
And lastly, I just recognize,
I think this has come with age for sure,
that I recognize my unique intersections.
And as I was preparingfor this conversation,
I was thinking, those are my ands.
- Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
It's not just the majorsand minors you had.
- Right, intersections are ands.
(14:41):
- Yes, 'cause they create connection.
- That's right, they are my superpower
and worth considering, so Ihave to share and show up.
- You show up. You do.
And it's something thatis not innate in folks,
even folks who have suchstrong values sometimes,
(15:01):
or you can show up in the anger space.
You could have taken everything
that you saw your dad have to face and go,
"Well, this demonstrateshow nothing is fair,
"and I'm gonna bring the fury in a way
"that doesn't supportthe change that you do."
And so, there's something magic in it,
and there is somethingthat I can only imagine
(15:23):
spurs your kids to wanna bethe way you saw your dad.
How do they see you, becauseit could be really, you know,
you're not a wartime hero in the same way,
but we are in a battlewhen it comes to equity
and when it comes to race in this country,
and you're battling on thefront that you've chosen.
Do they see that front?
Do they respect it the wayyou can look at your dad's
(15:45):
as so magnanimous and belike, "My mom's a badass,
"and she's fighting the fight."
- They do, and they kind ofcan't believe what I have to do-
- In a day.- In volume,
but also, in one instance,they can't comprehend it.
And so, what they do isthey say this all the time.
(16:09):
My son, I just dropped him off.
He said, "When can I hear the podcast?"
- They're fans, so you share with them,
you share case studies
about the things thatyou're working on as,
we talk about case studies a lot,
and the beauty of a casestudy in people being like,
"Well, it's not gonna,"it's like, "No, it is.
"It's actually happening like this.
"This is what is on the table.
(16:30):
"This is what's in the room,and this is what was said."
Do you share those with themand that helps them see you
and see the equity work that you're doing?
- I think it probably, so yes,I definitely share with them.
And I'll go home and I'llsay, every day they're like,
"How was work?" And I say,"How's school?" And we share.
So I will say, "Oh, I have one for you.
(16:54):
"I was working with this adultwho blah, blah, blah, blah,
"and this was the responsefrom the other adult,
"blah, blah, blah, and whatdo you think about that?"
And they will shake their head.
They don't understand the conflict.
They don't understand how small we become.
(17:14):
And so yeah, so I do, without names.
They don't care about the names.
They don't know the names.
They know I'm a fixer, andthey know I'm a fighter.
And so, they don't, in fact-
- 'Cause they know you're gonna go
if they bring it.- That's right, that's right.
- Yeah, especially with names.
- Absolutely, and so what I would say is,
(17:37):
I say this all the time,
because it gives people aquick snapshot is I'm an Aries.
I'm not this person that'sruled by that discipline,
but I do think I fit thatarchetype pretty well.
- I love Aries. I married one.
- They're rough, right?
- They bring a weapon to the party.
(17:58):
- So my kids know about methat I do not play games
when my values are threatened
or their values are threatened.
So for example, I've said tothem since they were little,
"I do get to know who your friends are,
"and I will veto them.
"You do not get to be around people
(18:20):
"who do not reciprocate yourlove, loyalty, you're worth."
So that's how unequivocal I am.
Is that the right word?- Yeah.
I can't spell it, but it is- Okay, I appreciate you.
- I can't publicly spellit, especially. (laughs)
I can't type it.
I can't type it in a roomfull of people watching.
(18:42):
- So yeah, so I think that they-
- That's a beautiful way to say it too,
not like, "That kid's bad,he's gonna corrupt you."
It's like, "No, that's a labeling
"that's gonna cause them to fight back,"
but to talk about reciprocity.
- That's right, it's just about
they have to be treatedwell, 'cause they deserve it.
So, sorry, I kind of lost track
of the question you asked me,
(19:02):
but they do think that I am more important
than I am at work.
They're absolutely in awe of what I do,
but it's partially 'causethey don't understand it,
and it's hilarious.
And so the way I wind them up
is I constantly talk to them about it.
(19:25):
And then I also say, Isaid it the other day,
"Make sure you do something that you love,
"because that's the only way you can last
"when it gets hard, that's it."
- That is the best advice,
and it's when we think about students
who are trying to pleaseparents with majors
(19:47):
or humans who are trying toplease society with choice,
and they're outside of what is...
You've also said to me, youhate the word, oh, your passion.
Now talk to me about why wehate this word as a often,
well I see it as a coverfor doing the right thing,
but can you talk to me about passion as a,
(20:07):
how it can be used against you?
- Passion for me seems fleeting.
Maybe that's what it is for me.
'Cause I actually am inspiredby people being passionate
about the things that they're doing,
but that's because I canpotentially, I guess, see depth,
and it's not fleeting.
(20:27):
I think what is really important and big
and maybe gets to and, is purpose.
What were you put here to do?
I think-- From a higher power space?
- Maybe, absolutely. I mean,I do, yeah, absolutely.
(20:48):
- And that purpose hasaction embedded in it,
which can feel different than passion.
- Right, and passion, maybe also,
I mean, you're making me think of this,
so this is just off the cuff,passion perhaps feels selfish,
and purpose feelsgenerative and for others.
(21:09):
And again, that's kindof who I am at my center.
- Do you have a wall in your house
that has a sign that hasyour values painted on it?
- No, I hate those houses.
- I couldn't imagine that you did.
Do you have them tattooed?
- No, no tattoos.- No tattoos.
Do you just have them,like, do they change for you
or are they a mantra, are theyanywhere that they're fixed?
(21:33):
You've said these great words.
It makes me think what would my words be?
And your words are really specific,
so it feels like they've been materialized
on a sign, on a tattoo, in a poem,
on a post-it in yourdrawer, they just live.
- They just live, and that'swhy I think just said to you
from a higher power, becauseI think what happens for me
(21:55):
is literally, whatever I'mliving, I will see it visually,
and it just embodies, soreciprocity was one of those
that was just coming through.
It's almost like, what are those, mediums,
but so like it's words.- Yeah, you do get,
When I talk about metabolizing things,
you're like, that verb, loving that.
(22:17):
- I used that word yesterday.
- You did use it yesterday?- Yes.
I'm on a board in Boulder,it's called Growing Up Boulder.
And we were doing aretreat, a few hour retreat
to create our mission, vision, and values.
This group has been around for13 years, but it's retooling.
(22:38):
And anyway, I used your word,
because part of the conversation was,
"How do we use moreorganic terms that embody,"
I used embody as well,and I shouted you out.
- Well, you don't have to.- So no, but I-
- It's just answers.- Right.
- Yeah, well there'sthe thing that happens-
- It's not just answers, answers are-
- Thank you.- Yeah.
(23:00):
It matters, the words matterand how we think about
where we remove the body is so dicey.
And yet, when we bringthe body into conversation
in the ways that it has been before,
then it sets it up to beobjectified and killed and harmed.
And so, how do we bringthis idea of a body
(23:21):
with the sensitivityand care of reciprocity?
- Yeah, so yeah, the wordsjust, I can see them.
- Do you write as part of your practice?
- So I don't write in terms of journaling.
I'm really terrible at that actually.
I have gone through somehard times in my life,
(23:43):
not hard times, liketraditional hard times,
meaning I'm searching, I can't fix it.
I can't figure out what's the next step.
Those are hard times for me,
because I feel likeI'm pretty clear a lot.
So it's really just, yes,
so I don't want to make itsound more dramatic than it is,
but, so then I will beintentional about writing
(24:05):
just to see if I can glean anything.
I use writing as a tool,but not as a practice.
However, I inculcate things by writing.
So you commented at thebeginning about all these notes.
Part of it is just,
it does help me processmy thoughts and get clear.
(24:28):
And so I'm actually, I think all the time,
like I'm shocked that I don'twrite more and regularly,
I just don't.
- Well, because I'm hearing you talk,
and I would read yourparenting book, I would.
- That's hilarious, I've actuallythought about writing one
as a bucket list.
- Take it off the list and do it.
I'm listening to you and I'm like,
"Okay, these are super simple,actually non-dogmatic things
(24:54):
"to share," with so many parenting books
make me just wanna burn them
and make me feel terribleabout myself as a parent.
And so, it's more abouthow do you be in dialogue
in true care with the kids?
When you think about writinga book, you have a title?
- Well, no, I definitelydon't have a title.
What I would say is I go backand forth and think about it,
that the book would be really short.
(25:17):
Because it's like, justtreat them with kindness.
I mean, I don't know, they're not you.
They're just trying to figure it out.
- But writing down things like that
in a short book would be hilarious,
like the world's biggestbook on parenting,
and it's like three pages.- That's hilarious.
- And it's huge, and it's epic because-
(25:38):
- Yeah, so I do think about it,
and then I don't read parenting books,
but I actually justordered, did I order one?
It wasn't about parenting,but it's a funny book.
So it's kind of likewhat you're talking about
where it's satire-- Love the funny-
- Oh my gosh.- The funny.
- Oh my gosh.- You gotta find the funny.
(25:59):
That's another survival, music, survival,
funny, pop culture.
And you are both funny, butyou also wink at people.
You're like, I see what you did there,
and you have this like little way
where you just shakeyour head or you give it
and again, it's anotherway of feeling seen,
'cause those of us who reallylike to think we're funny,
(26:19):
it's really good to have you in a room.
- That's hilarious.- And so that's a line,
that's a B-line-- You are funny.
- Yeah, but that's hilarious.
You don't always laugh, youjust footnote, that's hilarious.
Yeah, but you love it, you look for it.
- I feel in my chest-- Yeah, huh,
so even if you're notlaughing, it's in your body.
- Right, when I say it's hilarious,
it's like, yeah, that's a full word.
(26:40):
- So what's in your queue,what are the things,
what are you bingingfrom your comfy couch?
- Oh my gosh, I share this a lot
in big, big community meetingswith staff in our college,
and that started in thepandemic on big Zoom calls
as just a way for me to model I'm human,
again, trying to get some reciprocity
(27:04):
in terms of people aregoing through some stuff,
but we're not immune.
And I think I've worried somefolks about what I watch,
so I will watch, you andI share "Grey's Anatomy,"
but I resisted for areally long time, but my-
- I resisted for so long.
- Yes, but my oldest got me into it.
He's pre-med and hisfriends were watching,
(27:25):
and so I love that.- When did you start?
What season were they in that you started?
Because I'm so late to the party.
- I think they were in eight or nine.
- Yeah, I think I was like nine or 10,
and then I went back with my mom
and watched the whole thing.
Now I've watched thewhole thing twice I think,
and now I'm where, spoiler alert,
Meredith feels like she'sjust a narrating voice,
(27:46):
'cause she's super weird.
Okay, so "Grey's Anatomy."- So that's always right.
- Do you cry?- Oh my, yes, absolutely, so-
- I cry every time.
- I'm not currently watching that,
so I'll do "Grey's Anatomy,"and then I love documentaries.
The kids also know, puton David Attenborough,
(28:08):
and I'm just in myhappy place, that voice.
- That's me with "British Baking."
- Oh, they love "British Baking" too.
- But they do, your boys putit on if mom is stressed,
the cape is cinched, theyput on David Attenborough.
- Exactly, it's like I havecues based on what I need.
So going back to thecare, the 15 year old,
(28:30):
he wanted to watch, wellthis is what happened.
He saw in the scroll "RealHousewives of Potomac"
and he was like, "Where's Potomac?"
I'm like, "That isPotomac, are you insane?"
And that was so funnythat he wants to watch it.
- So now you're watching"The Real Housewives?"
(28:51):
- Yes, and what's so coolis it's an all Black cast,
so it's just really interesting.
- I still can't get over, I mean, again,
you have to write a parenting book.
If you can get yourchildren to choose a show
to serve your ness, youare winning as a mom.
- It's hilarious,
well then my daughter'sthe most disturbing.
(29:12):
She's the youngest one.
And she was telling us, "Wegotta watch 'Squid Game.'"
So I'm like, "Yep, let's do that."
First episode, I'm like, "Ithink this is a parenting fail."
So anyway, but currently,what I'm watching
is a show that I can get on BritBox,
which is called "Gogglebox,"
(29:34):
and it's British people in their homes
watching television andcommenting on the television,
and it is amazing.
It is the funniest thing,
because their culture's just different,
so just the banter-
- You're just watchingpeople watch British people.
- A hundred percent.
- And then are you filming you?
This is what people want, Bernadette, is-
(29:57):
- I have joked that we should film us,
because it is hysterical.
I was howling yesterday,and I can't remember-
- Will you film it andmake a YouTube channel?
- No, 'cause I don't likeattention, so that's a problem.
- Okay, well then, (laughs)
(30:17):
how about we do anover-the-shoulder filming,
so we can hear you, but bewatching what you're watching,
and then we're just gettingthe "Mystery Science Theater."
- Yes, that's exactly whatit is, that's like that.
So that's what I'm binging right now.
Also, I watch truecrime, like documentary,
real crime documentaries.
- Do you like to solve it ordo you like to be surprised?
(30:38):
- Ooh, that's an interesting question.
I'm trying to solve it the whole time.
- We're always trying to solve it.
- And I'm always surprised,- Huh, both.
I'm like this, I watchit like I have no idea
that there are clues I'msupposed to be looking for.
- That's hilarious.
- I used to watch "Criminal Minds."
And the (indistinct) would belike, "Oh, so-and-so did it."
I'm like, "How are you, A, tracking that,
(31:00):
"B, you just ruined it,and C, I already forgot,"
and I'm watching just TV.
- Well and I'm watchingreal, so these are tragedies
and so it's kind of like cold cases,
so I watch stuff like that.
- So you're doing work to relax.
- Well this is the thing-- Because in your mind,
you're a detective solvingsystems and cleaning up messes.
(31:21):
- It is true.- Even blood splatter.
- It is true.- So you could have been that.
- Well I actually recentlyhave thought like-
- You're gonna change careers.
- No, no, but I've been using
this military language in my job.
A book that I just read is called "Risk"
by Stanley McChrystal.
He came and visited as, I think,
the chancellor's leadership keynote
(31:43):
or something a couple years ago.
And after hearing him, I thought,
I think I could have been a general.
But I will say my entire lifewith my dad watching that,
I fought him constantly.
He was my biggest supporter,my favorite person.
(32:06):
So he was also a Black Republican,so he was conservative,
and we fought about politics like crazy.
I did not appreciate his career choice.
And what I realized in my older age
is that what I couldn't get past
is people telling mewhat to do, I knew that.
(32:30):
I'm not good with peopletelling me what to do
without me being able to ask why.
And so, I couldn't everget over that hump.
But I recently have thought,
God, if I could have justgotten over that hump
and trusted the process,
I think I could havebeen that kind of leader.
- But if you could be anything
other than what you are doing,
(32:51):
'cause you're doing so many things,
if you could have a differentplace you went to work,
that could be anything,like a surf shop in Kauai.
That's my current,(laughs) what would it be?
- It's a great question.
(33:13):
I don't know if I cananswer that question,
'cause I think that I'm so adaptable
that it's not reallythe what, it's the how.
- Yes, so it wouldn'tmatter, surf shop in Kauai.
- Yeah, I think I would always be doing-
- Running the University of Colorado.
- this kind of thingwherever, right, nice Erika.
You're supposed to cut that out.
- Well the thing that Ilove is I can't just ask you
(33:34):
"What are you binging?"
And you give me a litany ofrandom, you know the why,
the process of communicating that why,
all of that is as important to you
as the list that I'll leave to check out,
to get to know you better.
It's not the show, it's the how.
- Yeah.- Yeah.
- That all intersects, everything,
every dot connects to something.
(33:56):
- Okay, it's time for the quick and dirty.
Are you ready?- Yeah.
- It's time.- Oh no.
- Try to be quick.- Okay.
- I hope you're dirty.
- Oh God, oh no.(Erika laughs)
- The next title of aplaylist that you would make
that has and in it.- Power and Joy.
- The first two bands onsaid playlist or performers.
(34:22):
- U2, Audra Day.
- U2... (laughing)- And Audra Day, thank you.
- The email subject header
that has and in it that youmost hate seeing in your inbox.
- Oh God, I'm not good at this.
(34:42):
- No one is, Producer Tim was terrible,
and he does this with me allthe time and he's still bad.
- Wait, so-- You get an email,
and you see a subject and you're like,
"Nope, not reading that one."
- Legal needs to talk to you,
and I need to give youinformation to prep.
(35:04):
- (laughs) Anything withlegal and anything obscure.
(laughing) 100%, okay.
Two or three things thatyou need in a meeting,
that can be material or not,
to make it more productive and fun.
- Inspiring, orinspiration, so the why and,
(35:30):
jokes, banter, lightheartedness.
- Yeah, and margaritas.
- Oh, and margaritas,no, and Jack and Coke.
- (laughing) And Jack andCoke, yes, yes, that's it.
Character traits thatyou've seen in your life
that have helped to grow your humanity.
You've talked about some of those,
but can you put 'em in a litany for me?
(35:53):
- So integrity andauthenticity and curiosity.
- Yeah, okay, you have a mister (laughs)
who I hear-- Looms large.
- Looms large (laughs) aswell, actually and physically.
(36:14):
What is a combo platter of things
that he knows he can serve up to you,
again, real, imagined, edible, emotional
that he knows will win you.- Oh, jokes.
I mean, he literally walksinto a room and starts dancing.
(36:34):
Or even when I'm furious at him-
- He will just start.- Right, yes.
- What's the dance move, what's it like?
- Oh, it's not one, well, it'susually some form of twerking
and it's ridiculous.
- And do you hold the face?
- No, I can't, ever.- You can't.
And he knows that's justgonna break it down.
(36:56):
- That's right.- Okay.
You are offering words of advice
to a population that youlove, to a population maybe
where you know some of them,you don't know some of them,
and you're gonna sendthem off into their next,
starts with and, what do you offer?
(37:16):
- And we have to have hope.(bright music)
We have to believe in eachother, and we have to show up.
I think that's it.
- That was Bernadette Stewart,
(37:36):
Assistant Dean of People,Engagement, and Culture
at CU Boulder on "The Ampersand."
"The Ampersand" is a production
of the College of Arts and Sciences
at the University of Colorado Boulder.
It's written and produced by me,
Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
If there are people you'dlike us to interview
on "The Ampersand," do please email us
(37:57):
at asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker
and the episodes are recordedat Interplay Recording
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall andthis is "The Ampersand."
(typewriter keys clicking)
(00:03):
- "A&S"(typewriter buzzes and dings)
(record player crackling)
(upbeat music)(bright music)
(00:25):
I imagine young Bernadette Stewart,
silver slippers clicking together
in front of her family'snew Zenith color TV,
watching "The Wiz" for the first time,
her face is mirrored inthe TV screen's glass
by Diana Ross as Dorothy, singing "Home."
A military kid, I imagine Bernadette
looking for home everywhere she goes,
and learning early on that wemust look inside our hearts
(00:46):
to find a world of love likeyours, like mine, like home.
Bernadette wears hercommitment to connection
and vulnerability on hersleeve right next to her heart,
and it's this empathy thatmakes her a fierce advocate
for all that's important to her,
equity, access, family,community, and finding the fun.
(bright music continues)
(01:14):
Bowing to Bernadette.- That was a great-
- Oh God, this is even,seriously, can I look away?
What should I do?
- (indistinct) like you're talking to me.
- Try to enjoy it and just look naturally.
- Oh my gosh, okay, I'm gonna talk-
- Put your hands in your pockets.
- This is so weird, oh my God.
- I can't imagine what it'slike inside Bernadette's mind,
navigating her binge list of music,
true crime and British TV shows,
serving on community leadership boards,
(01:35):
guiding staff through personnel cases
at the University of Colorado Boulder,
and holding her deep concernfor the humans of her life.
As you'll hear in today's episode,
her mind relentlessly merges and connects
these facets of her being,(bright music)
the values that are her north star.
I am a total fan girlfor this campus leader
and Assistant Dean of People,Engagement, and Culture.
And I can't imagine Bernadette anywhere,
(01:56):
but on the front lines ofreciprocity and authenticity,
ready to do battle for the structures,
relationships, and people she cares for.
On "The Ampersand,"
we call this bringingtogether of the impossible,
the alchemy of anding.
Together, we'll hear stories of humans
who imagine and create bycolliding their interests.
(02:18):
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunction junction kind of way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
a way to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally
let the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks,"What is it you plan to do
"with your one wild and precious life?"
(02:39):
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating, and collaborating,
it reminds me to replace a singular idea
of what I think I should be become
with a full sensoryverb about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall, andthis is Bernadette Stewart
on "The Ampersand."
(03:04):
- Well, I think it's interesting.
I think you're going alittle bit to how I grew up
and how I was formed.
And what I'll say is, I havea family, I am biracial,
so I'm Black and Mexican,and I didn't really fit in.
I grew up in the 80s andnot my favorite decade,
(03:28):
so neon, big hair-- 90s is your favorite.
- So yeah, I just didn't fit in.
I'm a military brat,so I moved around a lot
and trying to find connection
and just a place was challenging.
Although, I have to say,
I do think that it made me adaptable,
(03:50):
and so that's part of it
is that being able to see different,
different people, beingin different environments,
searching for a connection and making sure
that I show up authentically in the hope
that someone else will want to connect.
I think that's part of it.
(04:10):
- Yeah, an invitation.- Yeah, yeah,
I think that's maybe the baseline.
- This morning, I waslistening to the playlist
that you shared.- Oh, that's just a short one.
- I know, 'cause you'reall about the playlist.
We're gonna bookmark music.
But the one that I wasreally thinking about,
I was imagining you inthe 80s watching "The Wiz"
for maybe the first time.
(04:30):
And I have major "Wiz" connections.
My first serious ballet teacher
was an Ozite in "The Wiz," China White.
She was a dancer in the Harlem Ballet,
got to be in "The Wiz."
I remember when we could get the VHS tape
and pausing to see her in the moment.
You love the song "Home," butdo you love "The Wiz" also?
(04:52):
- Well, so my family hasalways been really intentional
about showing up and witnessing things
that have Black people in them.
So it was more like, it was very important
for us to watch it and be a part of it
versus how it actually really landed.
So I think that I havea sort of voyeuristic
(05:17):
sense of "The Wiz."- Yeah, the song "Home."
- The song "Home," I willcry every time I hear it,
but only if Diana Ross is singing.
- Diana Ross, not the Whitney version.
- That's right.- Okay,
that's what I wondered,Diana Ross forever.
And when you talk aboutbeing a military brat
and not having one home base,
do you think that thatresonates even more,
(05:37):
this idea that home is in the people,
it's in you, it's in me, it's in home
that we bring that home with us
or we're looking for it in each other.
Is it the lyrics that get you
or is it just the way Diana's sobbing
and singing like a badass?
- I think it's all, it's all of those.
And I will say, yes, it is in the people.
For me, everything is about people.
(05:59):
I have a younger brother,so I have a smaller family.
And again, we were very tight,my dad, mom, and brother.
And so, it's not that Ididn't feel a sense of home,
but I've always really wanted,I love people's messiness.
I love big, I always-- Even basement messiness?
(06:21):
- Oh, well, so I've said a lot
about my family being a lot to you all.
They are, but I also think
that they're the mostextraordinary people to watch and-
- Because of their mess.- Yes,
because it's just, it's humanity, right,
and so I always thought thatI wanted a big family myself.
(06:43):
My mom and my dad have giant family,
so I have a lot ofcousins, things like that.
And so, friends are family,
friends, you can choose family members.
And so, yes, I think thatcreating a home, wherever I am,
work, play, home, home is justthe way that makes me happy.
(07:07):
- When you said, "I like the messiness,"
you said earlier, "I likesystems, 'cause it can be clean."
So do you like the messy to clean it,
or do you like to clean something
and then mess it up with the humanity,
or do you see that this isa paradox that just exists,
and that is humanity orthe struggle against nature
of humans to try tomake it clean, the mess?
(07:28):
- I like the messy to make clean.
And your question is reallymaking me think about,
like I always have understood
that part of my stressmanagement is cleaning,
is making sense andorganizing and realizing
and recognizing almostimmediately it gets messy again.
(07:52):
So it's this process that never stops,
and I think that, I guessI never realized that
that's the way that it is,
and that's maybe a beautiful thing.
It's the thing that's sort of constant.
- Yeah, it is, and there's this notion
in care that comes up whenwe're looking to also repair,
(08:15):
care and repair, that it's just the stance
that's constantly happening,
and if you can feel it in your human life
and then you can bringit into your work life,
is it also then hard sometimeswhen we call work home?
I've run into that inmy own where I think,
I'll be like, in this house,
and then we treat each other like family,
but that means we're gonna fight.
(08:36):
But that also means what do I do
when I need it to bepersonnel, not personal.
How do you navigate that?I struggle with that.
'Cause there's sometimes whereI am so eager to find family
in the people I work with,
because we're with eachother all the time,
and I call where I work at the house.
But then sometimes maybenot, maybe it's not,
and do you have a feeling about, help me.
(08:56):
- Yeah, the way that I think about it is,
especially in our diversity,equity, inclusion work,
when you're building home in your family
or in your friends or at work,
the foundation of that is trust.
And so it can't, in my opinion,
(09:17):
cannot happen if you don't have trust.
So, you might want home,
a version of home or house to be at work,
but if the other folks inthat mix are not aligned,
then I think that's therub and the struggle.
- It doesn't have to imply intimacy,
(09:38):
but in order to get at the hardthings, trust, ground floor.
- Right, right, ground floor.
I do think that if youhave to fight at work,
it's not personal, it'sactually we understand
what positionality eachindividual that trust each other.
And the word that comes upfor me a lot in my work is,
(10:00):
or in the way that I thinkabout the way I show up,
is reciprocity, so I expect it,
but I think that we don't do,like I don't think it's given.
And so, we can show up attrusting the process, the people,
but there's always the other side of it.
(10:21):
- Yeah, and we can't control that side,
but we can keep showing up and showing up.
When you meet someone, you show up
not just by sharing who youare, but you start taking notes
about them somehow, somewhere.
I don't know what your method is,
but there's a thing, oh, I'll get squishy,
but my mom died last month,
(10:42):
and you gave me flowers this week,
'cause that's when people forget,
and that's when you remembered.
That's just like, you can say,"Well," but that's something.
That's care, that's tending to things
when other people maybe aren't looking,
and it's an amazing thing about you.
(11:03):
- I don't know what to say about that,
other than I will say I wasn't thoughtful
in terms of the timing.
What it was, was I was thinking about you,
so the universe was maybetending to the timing.
- So, but you acted on the thought.
And so that's the thing that I see in you
that is so extraordinary and tender.
(11:26):
And then it's like, how do you hold that,
and what does that look like for yourself?
How do you tend to yourselfwith that kind of care?
You have been in Boulder as a Black woman
(laughs) for a lot of years.
Like I said, you loom large in a room.
You bring the care and the ferocity.
How do you tend to yourself,
how do you listen to those things,
(11:46):
like, ah, Bernadette needssome gladiolas today.
Or do you, I hope you do.
- (laughs) Yeah, oh well, yeah.
We can get into a lot of my,if you want, my addictions
with entertainment.- (laughs) TikTok.
- Yeah, no, I'm not a, well,
maybe I am a social media, like a shopper,
but no, not like that, but TV and music
(12:08):
and oh my gosh, I have alot, so that's maybe how I'm-
- You have a queue.- Yes.
- Yeah, you have a queue.- My self-care queue.
So I guess I'll start by saying,
again, girl, I constantly come back to,
when I think about thingswhen I'm reflecting,
come back to the way that I was raised.
So my dad's Black.
(12:29):
He was an enlistedsoldier, not an officer.
That's really important.
So Black man, when heenlisted, no other options.
And so, I learned-- Was that in the 70s?
- That would be in the 60s.- So he had one choice,
one box that you could-- That's right, that's right.
He enlisted, and when he retired,he was a master sergeant.
(12:56):
So he's no longer here.
He passed away way too young,because he was an alcoholic.
It was probably stemming from
doing a couple tours inVietnam, that story basically.
But he always taught usthat we deserve dignity.
We are equal, every one of us.
(13:16):
So I think, to answer yourquestion, that's where it starts.
Everyone deserves dignity. I do.
And I will assume thatI will get it, period.
And if I don't, that'syour problem, not mine.
And every day, that's how I show up.
So that's how it starts,
me being here for a really long time.
(13:38):
I will say that I alsorecognize that I have privilege,
and I say words in our job allthe time, like perspective.
And so it's about recognizing
that we all have some privilege in a room-
- And reconciling that in ourselves.
(13:58):
- That's right, that's right.
And being brave and usingthat privilege to help lift
or clear a path for someone that has less.
And so, the other thingis I'm just confident
in my intentions alwaysbecause of my north star,
(14:19):
because of my values.
And lastly, I just recognize,
I think this has come with age for sure,
that I recognize my unique intersections.
And as I was preparingfor this conversation,
I was thinking, those are my ands.
- Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
It's not just the majorsand minors you had.
- Right, intersections are ands.
(14:41):
- Yes, 'cause they create connection.
- That's right, they are my superpower
and worth considering, so Ihave to share and show up.
- You show up. You do.
And it's something thatis not innate in folks,
even folks who have suchstrong values sometimes,
(15:01):
or you can show up in the anger space.
You could have taken everything
that you saw your dad have to face and go,
"Well, this demonstrateshow nothing is fair,
"and I'm gonna bring the fury in a way
"that doesn't supportthe change that you do."
And so, there's something magic in it,
and there is somethingthat I can only imagine
(15:23):
spurs your kids to wanna bethe way you saw your dad.
How do they see you, becauseit could be really, you know,
you're not a wartime hero in the same way,
but we are in a battlewhen it comes to equity
and when it comes to race in this country,
and you're battling on thefront that you've chosen.
Do they see that front?
Do they respect it the wayyou can look at your dad's
(15:45):
as so magnanimous and belike, "My mom's a badass,
"and she's fighting the fight."
- They do, and they kind ofcan't believe what I have to do-
- In a day.- In volume,
but also, in one instance,they can't comprehend it.
And so, what they do isthey say this all the time.
(16:09):
My son, I just dropped him off.
He said, "When can I hear the podcast?"
- They're fans, so you share with them,
you share case studies
about the things thatyou're working on as,
we talk about case studies a lot,
and the beauty of a casestudy in people being like,
"Well, it's not gonna,"it's like, "No, it is.
"It's actually happening like this.
"This is what is on the table.
(16:30):
"This is what's in the room,and this is what was said."
Do you share those with themand that helps them see you
and see the equity work that you're doing?
- I think it probably, so yes,I definitely share with them.
And I'll go home and I'llsay, every day they're like,
"How was work?" And I say,"How's school?" And we share.
So I will say, "Oh, I have one for you.
(16:54):
"I was working with this adultwho blah, blah, blah, blah,
"and this was the responsefrom the other adult,
"blah, blah, blah, and whatdo you think about that?"
And they will shake their head.
They don't understand the conflict.
They don't understand how small we become.
(17:14):
And so yeah, so I do, without names.
They don't care about the names.
They don't know the names.
They know I'm a fixer, andthey know I'm a fighter.
And so, they don't, in fact-
- 'Cause they know you're gonna go
if they bring it.- That's right, that's right.
- Yeah, especially with names.
- Absolutely, and so what I would say is,
(17:37):
I say this all the time,
because it gives people aquick snapshot is I'm an Aries.
I'm not this person that'sruled by that discipline,
but I do think I fit thatarchetype pretty well.
- I love Aries. I married one.
- They're rough, right?
- They bring a weapon to the party.
(17:58):
- So my kids know about methat I do not play games
when my values are threatened
or their values are threatened.
So for example, I've said tothem since they were little,
"I do get to know who your friends are,
"and I will veto them.
"You do not get to be around people
(18:20):
"who do not reciprocate yourlove, loyalty, you're worth."
So that's how unequivocal I am.
Is that the right word?- Yeah.
I can't spell it, but it is- Okay, I appreciate you.
- I can't publicly spellit, especially. (laughs)
I can't type it.
I can't type it in a roomfull of people watching.
(18:42):
- So yeah, so I think that they-
- That's a beautiful way to say it too,
not like, "That kid's bad,he's gonna corrupt you."
It's like, "No, that's a labeling
"that's gonna cause them to fight back,"
but to talk about reciprocity.
- That's right, it's just about
they have to be treatedwell, 'cause they deserve it.
So, sorry, I kind of lost track
of the question you asked me,
(19:02):
but they do think that I am more important
than I am at work.
They're absolutely in awe of what I do,
but it's partially 'causethey don't understand it,
and it's hilarious.
And so the way I wind them up
is I constantly talk to them about it.
(19:25):
And then I also say, Isaid it the other day,
"Make sure you do something that you love,
"because that's the only way you can last
"when it gets hard, that's it."
- That is the best advice,
and it's when we think about students
who are trying to pleaseparents with majors
(19:47):
or humans who are trying toplease society with choice,
and they're outside of what is...
You've also said to me, youhate the word, oh, your passion.
Now talk to me about why wehate this word as a often,
well I see it as a coverfor doing the right thing,
but can you talk to me about passion as a,
(20:07):
how it can be used against you?
- Passion for me seems fleeting.
Maybe that's what it is for me.
'Cause I actually am inspiredby people being passionate
about the things that they're doing,
but that's because I canpotentially, I guess, see depth,
and it's not fleeting.
(20:27):
I think what is really important and big
and maybe gets to and, is purpose.
What were you put here to do?
I think-- From a higher power space?
- Maybe, absolutely. I mean,I do, yeah, absolutely.
(20:48):
- And that purpose hasaction embedded in it,
which can feel different than passion.
- Right, and passion, maybe also,
I mean, you're making me think of this,
so this is just off the cuff,passion perhaps feels selfish,
and purpose feelsgenerative and for others.
(21:09):
And again, that's kindof who I am at my center.
- Do you have a wall in your house
that has a sign that hasyour values painted on it?
- No, I hate those houses.
- I couldn't imagine that you did.
Do you have them tattooed?
- No, no tattoos.- No tattoos.
Do you just have them,like, do they change for you
or are they a mantra, are theyanywhere that they're fixed?
(21:33):
You've said these great words.
It makes me think what would my words be?
And your words are really specific,
so it feels like they've been materialized
on a sign, on a tattoo, in a poem,
on a post-it in yourdrawer, they just live.
- They just live, and that'swhy I think just said to you
from a higher power, becauseI think what happens for me
(21:55):
is literally, whatever I'mliving, I will see it visually,
and it just embodies, soreciprocity was one of those
that was just coming through.
It's almost like, what are those, mediums,
but so like it's words.- Yeah, you do get,
When I talk about metabolizing things,
you're like, that verb, loving that.
(22:17):
- I used that word yesterday.
- You did use it yesterday?- Yes.
I'm on a board in Boulder,it's called Growing Up Boulder.
And we were doing aretreat, a few hour retreat
to create our mission, vision, and values.
This group has been around for13 years, but it's retooling.
(22:38):
And anyway, I used your word,
because part of the conversation was,
"How do we use moreorganic terms that embody,"
I used embody as well,and I shouted you out.
- Well, you don't have to.- So no, but I-
- It's just answers.- Right.
- Yeah, well there'sthe thing that happens-
- It's not just answers, answers are-
- Thank you.- Yeah.
(23:00):
It matters, the words matterand how we think about
where we remove the body is so dicey.
And yet, when we bringthe body into conversation
in the ways that it has been before,
then it sets it up to beobjectified and killed and harmed.
And so, how do we bringthis idea of a body
(23:21):
with the sensitivityand care of reciprocity?
- Yeah, so yeah, the wordsjust, I can see them.
- Do you write as part of your practice?
- So I don't write in terms of journaling.
I'm really terrible at that actually.
I have gone through somehard times in my life,
(23:43):
not hard times, liketraditional hard times,
meaning I'm searching, I can't fix it.
I can't figure out what's the next step.
Those are hard times for me,
because I feel likeI'm pretty clear a lot.
So it's really just, yes,
so I don't want to make itsound more dramatic than it is,
but, so then I will beintentional about writing
(24:05):
just to see if I can glean anything.
I use writing as a tool,but not as a practice.
However, I inculcate things by writing.
So you commented at thebeginning about all these notes.
Part of it is just,
it does help me processmy thoughts and get clear.
(24:28):
And so I'm actually, I think all the time,
like I'm shocked that I don'twrite more and regularly,
I just don't.
- Well, because I'm hearing you talk,
and I would read yourparenting book, I would.
- That's hilarious, I've actuallythought about writing one
as a bucket list.
- Take it off the list and do it.
I'm listening to you and I'm like,
"Okay, these are super simple,actually non-dogmatic things
(24:54):
"to share," with so many parenting books
make me just wanna burn them
and make me feel terribleabout myself as a parent.
And so, it's more abouthow do you be in dialogue
in true care with the kids?
When you think about writinga book, you have a title?
- Well, no, I definitelydon't have a title.
What I would say is I go backand forth and think about it,
that the book would be really short.
(25:17):
Because it's like, justtreat them with kindness.
I mean, I don't know, they're not you.
They're just trying to figure it out.
- But writing down things like that
in a short book would be hilarious,
like the world's biggestbook on parenting,
and it's like three pages.- That's hilarious.
- And it's huge, and it's epic because-
(25:38):
- Yeah, so I do think about it,
and then I don't read parenting books,
but I actually justordered, did I order one?
It wasn't about parenting,but it's a funny book.
So it's kind of likewhat you're talking about
where it's satire-- Love the funny-
- Oh my gosh.- The funny.
- Oh my gosh.- You gotta find the funny.
(25:59):
That's another survival, music, survival,
funny, pop culture.
And you are both funny, butyou also wink at people.
You're like, I see what you did there,
and you have this like little way
where you just shakeyour head or you give it
and again, it's anotherway of feeling seen,
'cause those of us who reallylike to think we're funny,
(26:19):
it's really good to have you in a room.
- That's hilarious.- And so that's a line,
that's a B-line-- You are funny.
- Yeah, but that's hilarious.
You don't always laugh, youjust footnote, that's hilarious.
Yeah, but you love it, you look for it.
- I feel in my chest-- Yeah, huh,
so even if you're notlaughing, it's in your body.
- Right, when I say it's hilarious,
it's like, yeah, that's a full word.
(26:40):
- So what's in your queue,what are the things,
what are you bingingfrom your comfy couch?
- Oh my gosh, I share this a lot
in big, big community meetingswith staff in our college,
and that started in thepandemic on big Zoom calls
as just a way for me to model I'm human,
again, trying to get some reciprocity
(27:04):
in terms of people aregoing through some stuff,
but we're not immune.
And I think I've worried somefolks about what I watch,
so I will watch, you andI share "Grey's Anatomy,"
but I resisted for areally long time, but my-
- I resisted for so long.
- Yes, but my oldest got me into it.
He's pre-med and hisfriends were watching,
(27:25):
and so I love that.- When did you start?
What season were they in that you started?
Because I'm so late to the party.
- I think they were in eight or nine.
- Yeah, I think I was like nine or 10,
and then I went back with my mom
and watched the whole thing.
Now I've watched thewhole thing twice I think,
and now I'm where, spoiler alert,
Meredith feels like she'sjust a narrating voice,
(27:46):
'cause she's super weird.
Okay, so "Grey's Anatomy."- So that's always right.
- Do you cry?- Oh my, yes, absolutely, so-
- I cry every time.
- I'm not currently watching that,
so I'll do "Grey's Anatomy,"and then I love documentaries.
The kids also know, puton David Attenborough,
(28:08):
and I'm just in myhappy place, that voice.
- That's me with "British Baking."
- Oh, they love "British Baking" too.
- But they do, your boys putit on if mom is stressed,
the cape is cinched, theyput on David Attenborough.
- Exactly, it's like I havecues based on what I need.
So going back to thecare, the 15 year old,
(28:30):
he wanted to watch, wellthis is what happened.
He saw in the scroll "RealHousewives of Potomac"
and he was like, "Where's Potomac?"
I'm like, "That isPotomac, are you insane?"
And that was so funnythat he wants to watch it.
- So now you're watching"The Real Housewives?"
(28:51):
- Yes, and what's so coolis it's an all Black cast,
so it's just really interesting.
- I still can't get over, I mean, again,
you have to write a parenting book.
If you can get yourchildren to choose a show
to serve your ness, youare winning as a mom.
- It's hilarious,
well then my daughter'sthe most disturbing.
(29:12):
She's the youngest one.
And she was telling us, "Wegotta watch 'Squid Game.'"
So I'm like, "Yep, let's do that."
First episode, I'm like, "Ithink this is a parenting fail."
So anyway, but currently,what I'm watching
is a show that I can get on BritBox,
which is called "Gogglebox,"
(29:34):
and it's British people in their homes
watching television andcommenting on the television,
and it is amazing.
It is the funniest thing,
because their culture's just different,
so just the banter-
- You're just watchingpeople watch British people.
- A hundred percent.
- And then are you filming you?
This is what people want, Bernadette, is-
(29:57):
- I have joked that we should film us,
because it is hysterical.
I was howling yesterday,and I can't remember-
- Will you film it andmake a YouTube channel?
- No, 'cause I don't likeattention, so that's a problem.
- Okay, well then, (laughs)
(30:17):
how about we do anover-the-shoulder filming,
so we can hear you, but bewatching what you're watching,
and then we're just gettingthe "Mystery Science Theater."
- Yes, that's exactly whatit is, that's like that.
So that's what I'm binging right now.
Also, I watch truecrime, like documentary,
real crime documentaries.
- Do you like to solve it ordo you like to be surprised?
(30:38):
- Ooh, that's an interesting question.
I'm trying to solve it the whole time.
- We're always trying to solve it.
- And I'm always surprised,- Huh, both.
I'm like this, I watchit like I have no idea
that there are clues I'msupposed to be looking for.
- That's hilarious.
- I used to watch "Criminal Minds."
And the (indistinct) would belike, "Oh, so-and-so did it."
I'm like, "How are you, A, tracking that,
(31:00):
"B, you just ruined it,and C, I already forgot,"
and I'm watching just TV.
- Well and I'm watchingreal, so these are tragedies
and so it's kind of like cold cases,
so I watch stuff like that.
- So you're doing work to relax.
- Well this is the thing-- Because in your mind,
you're a detective solvingsystems and cleaning up messes.
(31:21):
- It is true.- Even blood splatter.
- It is true.- So you could have been that.
- Well I actually recentlyhave thought like-
- You're gonna change careers.
- No, no, but I've been using
this military language in my job.
A book that I just read is called "Risk"
by Stanley McChrystal.
He came and visited as, I think,
the chancellor's leadership keynote
(31:43):
or something a couple years ago.
And after hearing him, I thought,
I think I could have been a general.
But I will say my entire lifewith my dad watching that,
I fought him constantly.
He was my biggest supporter,my favorite person.
(32:06):
So he was also a Black Republican,so he was conservative,
and we fought about politics like crazy.
I did not appreciate his career choice.
And what I realized in my older age
is that what I couldn't get past
is people telling mewhat to do, I knew that.
(32:30):
I'm not good with peopletelling me what to do
without me being able to ask why.
And so, I couldn't everget over that hump.
But I recently have thought,
God, if I could have justgotten over that hump
and trusted the process,
I think I could havebeen that kind of leader.
- But if you could be anything
other than what you are doing,
(32:51):
'cause you're doing so many things,
if you could have a differentplace you went to work,
that could be anything,like a surf shop in Kauai.
That's my current,(laughs) what would it be?
- It's a great question.
(33:13):
I don't know if I cananswer that question,
'cause I think that I'm so adaptable
that it's not reallythe what, it's the how.
- Yes, so it wouldn'tmatter, surf shop in Kauai.
- Yeah, I think I would always be doing-
- Running the University of Colorado.
- this kind of thingwherever, right, nice Erika.
You're supposed to cut that out.
- Well the thing that Ilove is I can't just ask you
(33:34):
"What are you binging?"
And you give me a litany ofrandom, you know the why,
the process of communicating that why,
all of that is as important to you
as the list that I'll leave to check out,
to get to know you better.
It's not the show, it's the how.
- Yeah.- Yeah.
- That all intersects, everything,
every dot connects to something.
(33:56):
- Okay, it's time for the quick and dirty.
Are you ready?- Yeah.
- It's time.- Oh no.
- Try to be quick.- Okay.
- I hope you're dirty.
- Oh God, oh no.(Erika laughs)
- The next title of aplaylist that you would make
that has and in it.- Power and Joy.
- The first two bands onsaid playlist or performers.
(34:22):
- U2, Audra Day.
- U2... (laughing)- And Audra Day, thank you.
- The email subject header
that has and in it that youmost hate seeing in your inbox.
- Oh God, I'm not good at this.
(34:42):
- No one is, Producer Tim was terrible,
and he does this with me allthe time and he's still bad.
- Wait, so-- You get an email,
and you see a subject and you're like,
"Nope, not reading that one."
- Legal needs to talk to you,
and I need to give youinformation to prep.
(35:04):
- (laughs) Anything withlegal and anything obscure.
(laughing) 100%, okay.
Two or three things thatyou need in a meeting,
that can be material or not,
to make it more productive and fun.
- Inspiring, orinspiration, so the why and,
(35:30):
jokes, banter, lightheartedness.
- Yeah, and margaritas.
- Oh, and margaritas,no, and Jack and Coke.
- (laughing) And Jack andCoke, yes, yes, that's it.
Character traits thatyou've seen in your life
that have helped to grow your humanity.
You've talked about some of those,
but can you put 'em in a litany for me?
(35:53):
- So integrity andauthenticity and curiosity.
- Yeah, okay, you have a mister (laughs)
who I hear-- Looms large.
- Looms large (laughs) aswell, actually and physically.
(36:14):
What is a combo platter of things
that he knows he can serve up to you,
again, real, imagined, edible, emotional
that he knows will win you.- Oh, jokes.
I mean, he literally walksinto a room and starts dancing.
(36:34):
Or even when I'm furious at him-
- He will just start.- Right, yes.
- What's the dance move, what's it like?
- Oh, it's not one, well, it'susually some form of twerking
and it's ridiculous.
- And do you hold the face?
- No, I can't, ever.- You can't.
And he knows that's justgonna break it down.
(36:56):
- That's right.- Okay.
You are offering words of advice
to a population that youlove, to a population maybe
where you know some of them,you don't know some of them,
and you're gonna sendthem off into their next,
starts with and, what do you offer?
(37:16):
- And we have to have hope.(bright music)
We have to believe in eachother, and we have to show up.
I think that's it.
- That was Bernadette Stewart,
(37:36):
Assistant Dean of People,Engagement, and Culture
at CU Boulder on "The Ampersand."
"The Ampersand" is a production
of the College of Arts and Sciences
at the University of Colorado Boulder.
It's written and produced by me,
Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
If there are people you'dlike us to interview
on "The Ampersand," do please email us
(37:57):
at asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker
and the episodes are recordedat Interplay Recording
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall andthis is "The Ampersand."
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