September 19, 2023 • 28 mins
At what point does the drive for positivity become toxic? This week’s guest, June Gruber, studies moments that people deny themselves the full complexity of their emotions in order to try and stay happy, even when their experiences warrant feeling anything but joy. Gruber, an associate professor of psychology and neuroscience at the University of Colorado Boulder, studies the dark side of happiness, but in today’s interview she also explains how complex emotions give her hope in humanity’s capacity for good.
---
To support Gruber's efforts to help student mental health, check out the Emerge Project.
To learn more about and support Gruber's work on happiness, emotions and well-being more generally, visit the Positive Emotion & Psychopathology (PEP) Lab's gift fund page.
Music by Nelson Walker.
Episodes recorded at Interplay Recording in Boulder, CO.
Written and produced by Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(typewriter clicking)
- [Erica] A and S.
(typewriter pinging)
(waves crashing)
(birds chirping)
I imagine June Gruber sittingon the beach at Half Moon Bay,
(00:21):
listening to the waves and sipping tea.
The warmth of her brownceramic mug fills her hands
as the steam blends withthe mist of the ocean.
The steam fills herwith a range of emotions
from bittersweet melancholyto nostalgic joy.
Her research shows thatthis is better for the body
(00:42):
than toxic positivities insistence
on a singular feeling of happiness.
(indistinct chatter)
I can't imagine the fear June felt
when she was tackled by two grown men
on the streets of Sao Paulo.
Her fear and shock stand instark relief to her gratitude
(01:05):
as humans step forwardto offer what they could
to help a stranger andcatch the assailants.
Even moments like this offer June
opportunities to be curious.
She studies and looksfor the best in humanity,
even our darkest parts,
and brings to light thecomplexity of the human brain
and all the stories it has to offer
(01:25):
(gentle melodic music)
On "The Ampersand", wecall this bringing together
of the impossible the alchemy of anding.
Together, we'll hear stories of humans
who imagine and create bycolliding their interests.
(01:46):
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunction junction kinda way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
a way to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally let
the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks,"What is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?"
(02:07):
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating and collaborating,
it reminds me to replace a singular idea
of what I think I should become
with a full sensoryverb about experiencing.
I'm Erica Randall.
And this is June Gruberon "The Ampersand."
(02:32):
- [June] A lot of the way we hear about
happiness and positivity,
especially in more westernizedor individualistic context,
is very self-centered.
It's how can I feelbetter, and in particular,
how can I feel these kindof exuberant emotions,
joy, excitement, enthusiasm.
Although those are certainlyimportant feelings to have
(02:54):
in part of the human experience,
sometimes we push them toofar or experience them in ways
that put other feelings to the wayside.
And so when I think aboutthat sweet spot of happiness,
I think about a few different pieces.
One is balancing thekinds of emotions you have
so that you balance both the emotions
(03:16):
that bring you pleasure,
but also you're experiencingthose kinds of feelings
that really orient yououtwards towards other people.
So we think of these asother oriented feelings.
This could be love, thiscould be compassion.
We've even found, and acourse I'm teaching right now
to students on campus,
(03:36):
that a sense of awe and wonder,
the science is telling usthat gets us out of ourselves,
that gets us into the greatbeyond and actually makes us
really connect with othersin the greater world.
So I think it's about alsoexperiencing those emotions
that engage us with the world
and engage us with other people.
I also have found that happiness
(03:56):
isn't about just feeling positive.
And in fact, we've donesome work looking at
all the diverse kind of menu of feelings
you can have as a human being, right?
We're built with all kinds of feelings,
including sadness and frustration,
and times embarrassment, right?
- [Erica] Melancholy is my favorite.
- [June] Melancholy, yeah.
(04:16):
- [Erica] It's my fave, andmy kid at two years old.
"Mama, my favorite word is melancholy."
- [June] Such a good word.
- [Erica] Yeah, I'm like,okay, I'm done parenting.
I've arrived.
But yeah, these otherfeelings that connect us
to a sense of ourselves and outward.
- [June] And the world as it is.
So that means if experiencing what we call
(04:38):
emotional diversity.
There are times when it'scompletely appropriate
to feel angry at social injustice,
at the world, you know,not going the way it could
or optimally ought to be.
And anger can motivate us to sort of
push towards social change or,you know, behavioral change.
(04:59):
There's times when embarrassment,
we find that it actuallycan be completely all right.
Although it can feel painful.
When you feel embarrassedother people like you more,
they trust you more.- They laugh.
- [Erica] Yeah, they seeyour humility, humanity.
- [June] So happinessis about experiencing
all the different...
The palette of emotions we find.
- [Erica] Yeah.
(05:20):
What brought you to this work?
I think, for myself, I spend so much time
as an artist and as a writer being with,
and I wonder what it's like to be with
on a neurological level,on a scientific level.
What brought you to bewith happiness so deeply?
- [June] I mean, part of it's interesting
about being a writer.
(05:41):
I always wanted to be a writerwhen I was in high school.
I loved English literature.
I loved reading about human experience.
And all of them, you know,whether I was reading, you know,
"1984" or "Lord of theFlies", or you know,
it was just learning about the human mind.
And I knew that I wanted totry to study it more deeply
in a way that I could also bring in math
(06:03):
and I could also bringin running experiments,
like to do all the things
to be able to understand happiness.
But what got me interestedin this in particular,
actually was not a class,
but I actually was an undergraduate
and I was shadowing a psychiatristthrough an inpatient unit
in the psychiatry unit.
And I was following her aroundas she went on her rounds
(06:26):
from patient to patient.
And I remember one patientthat we stopped and visited,
and it was a woman in sortof the acute throes of mania.
And I had never seenanything like that before.
- [Erica] And it was probably terrifying.
- [June] It was terrifyingand it was also absorbing
because here she was in thisvery fragile part of her life,
(06:46):
and at the same time she waslaughing, she was exuberant.
And I wanted to understandwhat that was about,
because all I knew atthat time from my classes
was in the positive psychology movement
where we were trying to foster happiness,
we were trying to think positive thoughts.
And this didn't fit with that
and I wondered what could it tell us?
(07:07):
- [Erica] Well, when I thinkabout Peter Pan and he says,
"Lovelier thoughts, Michael.
Lovelier thoughts.
From candy, Christmas."
And that's what makes you fly.
As part of our upbringing as young folks
and these are the storiesthat are told to us,
my mom always called me her happy camper.
And then as I went into art making,
my work was not fueled by my happiness.
(07:27):
It was fueled by the rain in Seattle
and screaming over the freeway.
It was fueled by heartache.
It was fueled by the goldthat poured back into my heart
to fill those cracks.
But it wasn't fueled by happycamper and lovelier thoughts.
And my path was to makeand yours was to question
and to ask and to get the data together.
(07:49):
And then you're still writing.
I mean, when I read thebystander altruism piece,
that has so much voice.
So you're still writingin ways that compel folks
towards your research.
Does it feel like writingor does it feel like
retelling of experiments?
So do you feel creativein the act as you write?
- [June] I find there'sdifferent kinds of writing
(08:10):
I get to do.
There's the writing I get to do
when I'm writing up a science experiment.
But there's this wholeother world of writing
that I've been enjoying doing more of.
So writing that op-ed about an experience
my friend Sabrina and Ihad in Brazil one night,
a very scary experience.
I'm working right now too, on a textbook
(08:33):
for Introduction to Psychology,
which has been wonderful to like,
think how can you teachstudents about the human mind?
And also thinking about writinga book about some of the-
- [Erica] A children's book?
I want a children's book.
- [June] I would love to.
Teaching kids about happiness.
- [Erica] Yeah.
And the notion, you saida sentence earlier on...
(08:54):
About what really is, what is,
how do we be with what isand still find pleasure,
wonder, and not justhappiness at that edge.
- [June] Totally.
And you know, as a momwith two little boys,
I think all the time aboutlike, we have this opportunity,
we can teach children andteach them these things young
(09:14):
so it becomes part of thefoundation of who they are
and what they thinkabout their own feelings.
I think about that, especiallyas a mom of two young boys,
where we need to fostergreater awareness of feelings
and all of them in a worldthat hasn't always supported
men experiencing all their feelings.
- [Erica] Yeah, I thinkthat that kid's book
would be for everybody.
(09:36):
I think it needs to happen.
- [June] I gotta do it?
- [Erica] You gotta do it.
You have to do it.
Do you think "Inside Out" did that?
The movie?
- [June] You know, my undergrad advisor
actually was one of theconsultants for the movie.
Dr. Keltner.
- [Erica] My face has a big, giant smile.
Okay, so talk to me about that,
'cause I wanna know that"Inside Out" is real
because I anthropomorphize everything.
Like, the science you canspeak is so beautiful,
(09:56):
but I gotta read it in metaphor.
"Inside Out."
- [June] Awesome movie.
- [Erica] Okay, good.
I'm allowed to like it.
- [June] Yeah, totally allowed to like it.
One of the things thatI really loved about it
is that it showed us thatdifferent emotions have...
They're like different characters.
They have different roles.
But they have to all be there
and they have to all work together,
(10:16):
even disgust.
Emotions that we really don't think, like,
why do I have this emotion?
What good does it do for me?
But it has its role in our lives.
And the part I love themost at the very end
is when Happiness and Sadnesshave to work together,
and that bittersweet feelings are like,
that's the human experience, right?
And that it can't justbe happiness all the time
(10:37):
leading the way.
I thought that wasbeautiful and I loved it.
- [Erica] Oh, and that word bittersweet.
It just does it right inthat one word, doesn't it?
- [June] Yeah.
- [Erica] Oh, bittersweet.
Ooh, that could be the title of the book.
- [June] You know, there'sa book called "Bittersweet"
by Susan Cain that justcame out and it's wonderful.
It's beautiful too.
And it's about how someof our greatest times
(10:57):
of sorrow and despair areactually the opportunities
for us to become more human.
- [Erica] I wanna read that book.
- [June] It's so good.
- [Erica] Yeah.
Oh, I love it.
So I wanna get back to the story
about the bystander experience.
And what happens...
There was a phrase thatI read that was really...
Like, just, I felt it in my human body,
(11:18):
around complacency.
There's a phrase that you use around,
when there's more peoplein the space than just one,
folks are...
They're not as eager to act in the moment.
I wrote it down, I can see itin my brain, but it's blurry,
so I'll keep thinking about it.
But it was this perfect phrasethat kind of swaddled...
This idea that we aregonna pass something off
(11:39):
if we don't have to stand into it.
Am I reading it right?
- [June] Yeah, we talk about it.
We call it diffusion of responsibility.
- [Erica] Diffusion of responsibility.
Thank you.- Yeah.
- [June] What's so interesting about it
is it's one of thesethings you learn early on,
and that when we're in agroup and something happens,
especially someone, you know,
maybe they're being robbed on the street,
that people, if theydon't have to be involved,
they just turn an eye and walk away.
(12:00):
And that that's whatwe're told to understand
and believe humans are about.
And it always made me sad.
It always made me feel sortof cynical about humanity.
And I think this experience showed me that
that doesn't have to be the case.
Like, there's hope for humanity,
especially in these times whenit can feel so challenging.
Sometimes it can feel really hard.
(12:22):
That there's still like,inherent human goodness.
- [Erica] Yes, especially whenyou feel danger in your body.
So you were traveling?
- [June] I was traveling.
I was in Sao Paulo with my friend Sabrina.
We were teaching acourse to students there
on creativity and happiness.
So like where art and psychology meet.
It was a dream.
It was a dream.
(12:43):
And one night we were leavingdinner, just her and I,
and we were walking up the street.
And out of just...
Literally, it was the blink of an eye.
I couldn't have even describedhaving an opportunity
to react right away 'causeit happened so fast.
Two men just pushed my friend to the side
and pushed me to the ground.
(13:04):
- [Erica] You are not a huge human person,
you are...
- [June] Not necessarily.
- [Erica] It doesn't taketwo to knock June down.
Now, maybe emotionally,psychologically, powerfully,
it takes a band, but two,two men outta nowhere.
- [June] Two men, outta nowhere,
you know, middle aged, like solid.
Solid people.
They had pushed me to the ground.
(13:26):
So I was on the ground andI had been holding my phone.
I shouldn't have been holding it out.
And as I was just gripped to it.
I don't even think in that moment
I quite knew it was happening.
But yeah, they were sort of both...
One was like pushing, pinningme down to the ground,
and the other was just likestriking me with his arms.
And I was just in themoment, in a blur like,
(13:48):
what is happening?
How much worse is this gonna get?
I believed it was going to be a lot worse.
And when is this going to end?
That's all I could think.
And my friend Sabrina, whois a very kind, very gentle,
not physically aggressive person at all.
She was standing back andwatching these two men over me.
I'm on the ground.
(14:09):
And just, just in a moment,
I don't think she even thought twice.
She went and just like whacked him.
She kicked him hard.
She does play soccer,so we think that helped.
But she whacked him with a foot.
- [Erica] Wow, she put herself in.
- [June] She did.
- [Erica] Into the mix.
- [June] She put her own safety at risk.
And I asked her about this.
Why did you do that?
(14:30):
Thank you, but why did you do that?
And she said, "Whatelse could I have done?
You were were in a dire situation
and no one else was reacting.
No one else was there in that moment."
And she said, "I honestlydidn't think twice."
And the man she kickedkind of lost his balance
and stumbled back.
(14:51):
And then they both just took off.
I think they didn't wanna messwith my friend or us anymore.
- [Erica] I don't wannamess with her either.
I love it.
And then it got you two to cometogether in this op-ed piece
and thinking about the different instances
where folks show up for one another.
- [June] Yeah.
We were floored what happened after that
because we thought that was sort of
the end of the situationand we were just gonna-
(15:12):
- [Erica] Oh, it felt likea film when I read it,
it felt like thisincredible slow one shot.
- [June] It was-
- [Erica] The responses.
- [June] Everyone.
We, we then, like, were standing there
and suddenly a man down the street yelled,
"They've got him, they've got him!"
And we walked down the streetand one of the men was there,
and suddenly there was awhole barrage of police there.
(15:34):
Someone else came up to usasking how we were doing.
Another guy drives by on a motorcycle,
"I'm gonna catch the second guy."
- [Erica] Whoa, just theworld sprang into action.
- [June] Sprung into action.
We were sort of in a littlebit of shock, but, you know,
everyone kept coming up to check with us.
Another person called our friend Paolo,
who had been our host for this workshop.
(15:55):
And he asked if he could come get us.
Everyone in that moment checkedin on how we were doing.
They ended up catching both of them,
which I don't think ever happened.
- [Erica] No, it's neverhappened in the history of time,
that they got both.
- [June] They got both.
And then they tended to us.
We went to the police stationand they took care of us.
They checked in on us andthey took us back to our hotel
(16:15):
later that night at twoin the morning, yeah.
- [Erica] And I bet every single human
who was in that situationwith you, and for you,
didn't leave feeling happy,
but they left feeling something.
- [June] And that's exactly it.
No one felt happy in that moment.
To feel happy in that moment,
I would think would havebeen toxic positivity, right?
Like, it wouldn't havemade sense in that moment.
It would've meant someonewas really out of touch
(16:38):
or insensitive, in fact.
No one felt happy but Ithink everyone felt connected
and get a sense of what wetalk about as like purposeful.
- [Erica] Yes.
- [June] Yeah.
- [Erica] I love that so much.
A sense of connected and purposeful.
Before you were taking classes
and studying the science of happiness,
what was your purpose?
(16:58):
When you were a kittengrowing up in Half Moon Bay,
what was your purpose?
Was it seashell organization?
Was it reading?
Was it...
How did you start to comeinto purpose as a young human?
- [June] Yeah.
So I feel so lucky togrow up in Half Moon Bay.
It was a small town at the time,
kind of pre SiliconValley era, on the ocean,
(17:21):
and a kind of small farming community.
- [Erica] I've driven through on the way
from north to south.
- [June] Yeah.
And I was an only child.
My mom was told shecouldn't have any kids,
and then I was a surprise, so-
- [Erica] Were you born in June?
- [June] I was.
I was, yeah, June born in June.
(17:42):
But I mean, it'sinteresting because I think
when I was young, I loved the ocean.
I loved going to the beach.
I loved just spending timelistening to the waves.
It's always like just built in me,
hearing the sound of the waves.
And I think I was always kind of curious
about living things, you know,
kind of broadly construed.
For a long time I thought Iwas gonna be a veterinarian.
(18:05):
I loved animals.
I still do.
We've got two dogs andwild animals in our yard,
bears and all kinds ofthings that come through.
- [Erica] Oh my gosh, where are you?
- [June] We are at Boulder Canyon.
- [Erica] Wow.
- [June] Near Fourmile.
So yeah, we've got bears,we've seen bobcats,
we've got all kinds of animal adventures.
They've broken into our cars.
- [Erica] Wow, so noocean, but a menagerie.
(18:27):
- [June] Yeah.
And we would have moreanimals if we could, I think.
And then I think the kind of caring
or being interested about livingbeings kind of switched...
Not switched, but like started as I was in
kind of a little bit older, gotreally interested in people.
And part of that was alsokind of inspired by my dad,
(18:49):
who, not until I was in high school,
did he start to tell meabout his own experiences
living with bipolar disorder.
That they had been kind of hidden.
That my mom had kind ofcovered it up, right?
And I was sort of leftin the dark as a child,
sort of knowing exactlywhat he was going through.
- [Erica] Did you feel thosemanic spikes that felt-
(19:09):
- [June] I remember moments.
- [Erica] Next to this kind of toxic.
- [June] I remember moments ofmy mom kind of protecting him
and protecting me fromknowing when he was struggling
or not explaining why for a year
he was at home all thetime and unemployed.
I didn't understand why.
And my dad was a great dad.
(19:31):
He was always fun andplayful and you know,
really great to be around.
But it wasn't until I was a teenager
that he kind of began tellingme kind of storytelling
about his experiences,
the parts that were inspiring,
the parts that were terrifying.
And it was through thatkind of human storytelling
that I felt like we...
(19:52):
Wow, this is lived experienceto all the extremes.
- [Erica] What a gift thathe gave you to share that.
- [June] And he still does,he still tells me his stories,
and I tell him my storiesfrom what I'm learning
and see what he thinks about it, you know,
bounce it off of him.
But it was through thatkind of human storytelling
(20:13):
that I got gripped andfelt like we've gotta
keep the human in all ofthis at the end of the day
because it's their storiesthat ultimately inspire us
to do what we're trying to do,
which is understand peoplebetter and help them.
- [Erica] Well, thanks for existing, June.
That makes me just really grateful
that you're on the planet,
because there's not so manyfolks who can hear those stories
(20:36):
and then not bounce them backoff their own and look for...
And not that you maybe didn't,
but not look for blame or oh, like,
the notion of this is justanother mirror for, for me.
But to really see and then get curious
about more and others,
which is a lot like whatyou were talking about
at the start of ourconversation that says,
when we focus ourselves outwardto others, we actually...
(20:59):
That's the sweet spot.
- [June] Yeah, I think so.
And I think we have a lot to learn
by like listening to others, right?
And not making it about yourself.
Right?
And I find like, you know,
my dad's the original storyteller,
but I've heard so many stories since then.
We bring people into my psychology lab
and we essentially have us tell stories,
(21:21):
whether it's like, tell me about the time
you lived through mania or thekind of depths of depression
and what was that like?
We also have people even tell us stories
about their most memorableemotional events in their lives.
And we transcribe them,we look at their stories,
we look at the words they use,how they tell the stories.
- [Erica] That's a question I have
is when we talk about the...
You know, I just think about it in kind of
(21:42):
the young, inner-Freudian way,
the latent, the manifest, the content,
the the words that we use.
And this comes up for me a lot when I...
And I've mentioned iton the podcast before,
that when I try to tell astory, I try to tell it new,
so that I can create a newgroove to my understanding.
So I'm not just readingthe book of my life,
but I'm creating it in new ways.
(22:03):
Did you ask folks when theycame in to tell a story one way
and then tell it again another and...
Or is it kind of that first hit,
what language they use, thatshows up as a indicator?
- [June] I mean, that'san awesome question.
So in those stories, we askthem their kind of first pass,
but we've actually...
There's this amazing worklooking at how people's stories
change over time, as they'recoping through something
(22:25):
really stressful or really traumatic.
And you can actually just literally see it
in like the tense of verbs they use.
Do they become...
Do they use like moreI versus we versus you?
Do they tend to havejust like literal words
that reflect more likewhat we call insight.
And the more they tendto use like these words
that affect insight,
that become less aboutI and more about we,
(22:47):
over time, you actually seethat they're less stressed.
If they've had symptoms of depression,
those tend to ease up andthat you can literally see
these changes throughthe words they're using.
- [Erica] Can we do afast-paced therapeutic
and just start using weinstead of I all the time?
Would it do it?
If we were to talk about ourselves?
- [June] We see this in couples actually.
When you get couples tohave a conflict conversation
(23:10):
and every couple can think ofsomething they can talk about.
The more couples are instructed to use we
or use we over time,instead of I versus you,
you see them closer together.
They're less distanced.
So yes, like the we starts to change.
Like we're not alone.
And in fact, we'reconnected with other people,
which is just so beautiful, right?
And our literally words, asingle word can show that,
(23:32):
which is so...
I just think it's so beautiful
and you go back to thinkingabout writing and reading
and when I was in high school,
wanting to be an English major,
it's all about the wordsand stories that I think
at the end of the day.
- [Erica] I could keep going,
but we gotta go to the quick and dirty.
Do you know what this is?
- [June] No.
- [Erica] Okay.
This is a time where I'mgonna ask you questions
(23:53):
and you have to answer it quick,
but you don't have to be dirty.
But that's my favorite, that's my tagline.
It's a quick and dirty.
Okay.
Ready?
- [June] Yeah.
- [Erica] Okay.
An anding approach to toxic positivity,
like poetry and rain.
- [June] Hmm.
Happy and sad.
(24:14):
- [Erica] Great.
Bitter and sweet.
Right, right.- Yeah.
Okay.
Your go-to anding combination to relax.
- [June] Ooh, so this is an and as well.
- [Erica] Yeah.
And it can have and in theword like sand castle building,
or it could be...
- [June] Ooh.
- [Erica] And another and, another...
- [June] Ooh, this is so hard to go quick.
(24:35):
To me, it would be likeocean wave listening
and drinking tea.
- [Erica] All but the tea.
I just really can't do the tea part,
but I am with you on the tea part.
I was like, oh, I wanna do yoga.
And then I would say coffee afterwards.
- [June] Ah.
- [Erica] But we could do that.
(24:55):
We could do yoga and tea coffee.
- [June] Yeah.
- [Erica] Okay, I love it.
Okay, a psychology basedmovie's research flaw.
So we say "Inside Out" is good,but like mania and da da da.
That like a movie showedus and it's wrong.
They just got it wrong.
Like, when the doctorswatch "Grey's Anatomy"
and they're like, "No,
that is not how you do an appendectomy."
(25:17):
What is an anding combo that is just,
like, "Criminal Minds", just blew it?
- [June] Hmm.
I think of "Killing Eve" and psychopathy.
- [Erica] Okay, talk to me about that.
- I think we think of psychopathy
as the dark side of humanity,
as like the deepest, mostevil way a human being can be.
And we think of Ted Bundy,
(25:37):
we think of these caricatures of people
who go out murdering that arecruel, that are heartless,
and it just stigmatizes psychopathy
when we know it's so much more than that.
Most people who have those kind of traits
don't go out killing and murdering people,
but they struggle with their feelings.
They struggle to feel certainkinds of feelings deeply,
(25:57):
and sometimes feel disconnectedfrom others because of it.
- [Erica] And these projectionsof those folks not helping.
- [June] Not helping, makes us scared.
- [Erica] Makes us scared.
Yeah, okay.
I heard you say that HalfMoon Bay has changed,
but if I were to go now,
what are the anding things I'd do
besides listening to ocean waves and tea?
(26:17):
- [June] Ooh.
I would say buying pumpkinsand eating burritos.
- [Erica] I love that.
Okay, do they have pumpkin burritos?
Do they have like a squash fest burrito?
- [June] They have thebiggest pumpkin festival
in the state of California.
- [Erica] Yes, Half Moon Bay.
- [June] It's its claim to fame.
- [Erica] That's itsclaim to fame, amazing.
Okay.
A neuroscience idea weshould all frantically Google
(26:39):
that has and in it.
- [June] Ooh.
I would say reward and technology.
- [Erica] Okay, be right back.
I'm Googling that.
All right, our final thing,
this is something we liketo do on "The Ampersand,"
is ask folks if theyhad a blessing, a wish,
a sendoff to graduates, to a beloved,
(27:02):
to an ancestor that began with and.
And may you always...
And should your path...
What's June's?
- [June] I would say, andmay you have your feelings.
All of them.
- [Erica] That was June Gruber,
Associate Professor ofPsychology and Neuroscience
(27:24):
at the University of Colorado Boulder.
We'll put more informationabout June's research
in the show notes.
"The Ampersand" is a production
of the College of Arts and Sciences
at the University of Colorado Boulder.
It is written and producedby me, Erica Randall,
and Tim Grassley.
If there are people you'dlike us to interview
on "The Ampersand",
do please email us at ASinfo@colorado.edu.
(27:49):
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker,
and the episodes are recordedat Interplay Recording
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erica Randall, andthis is "The Ampersand."
(typewriter clicking)
- [Erica] A and S.
(typewriter pinging)
(waves crashing)
(birds chirping)
I imagine June Gruber sittingon the beach at Half Moon Bay,
(00:21):
listening to the waves and sipping tea.
The warmth of her brownceramic mug fills her hands
as the steam blends withthe mist of the ocean.
The steam fills herwith a range of emotions
from bittersweet melancholyto nostalgic joy.
Her research shows thatthis is better for the body
(00:42):
than toxic positivities insistence
on a singular feeling of happiness.
(indistinct chatter)
I can't imagine the fear June felt
when she was tackled by two grown men
on the streets of Sao Paulo.
Her fear and shock stand instark relief to her gratitude
(01:05):
as humans step forwardto offer what they could
to help a stranger andcatch the assailants.
Even moments like this offer June
opportunities to be curious.
She studies and looksfor the best in humanity,
even our darkest parts,
and brings to light thecomplexity of the human brain
and all the stories it has to offer
(01:25):
(gentle melodic music)
On "The Ampersand", wecall this bringing together
of the impossible the alchemy of anding.
Together, we'll hear stories of humans
who imagine and create bycolliding their interests.
(01:46):
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunction junction kinda way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
a way to speak the beautifulwhen you intentionally let
the soft animal of yourbody love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks,"What is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?"
(02:07):
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating and collaborating,
it reminds me to replace a singular idea
of what I think I should become
with a full sensoryverb about experiencing.
I'm Erica Randall.
And this is June Gruberon "The Ampersand."
(02:32):
- [June] A lot of the way we hear about
happiness and positivity,
especially in more westernizedor individualistic context,
is very self-centered.
It's how can I feelbetter, and in particular,
how can I feel these kindof exuberant emotions,
joy, excitement, enthusiasm.
Although those are certainlyimportant feelings to have
(02:54):
in part of the human experience,
sometimes we push them toofar or experience them in ways
that put other feelings to the wayside.
And so when I think aboutthat sweet spot of happiness,
I think about a few different pieces.
One is balancing thekinds of emotions you have
so that you balance both the emotions
(03:16):
that bring you pleasure,
but also you're experiencingthose kinds of feelings
that really orient yououtwards towards other people.
So we think of these asother oriented feelings.
This could be love, thiscould be compassion.
We've even found, and acourse I'm teaching right now
to students on campus,
(03:36):
that a sense of awe and wonder,
the science is telling usthat gets us out of ourselves,
that gets us into the greatbeyond and actually makes us
really connect with othersin the greater world.
So I think it's about alsoexperiencing those emotions
that engage us with the world
and engage us with other people.
I also have found that happiness
(03:56):
isn't about just feeling positive.
And in fact, we've donesome work looking at
all the diverse kind of menu of feelings
you can have as a human being, right?
We're built with all kinds of feelings,
including sadness and frustration,
and times embarrassment, right?
- [Erica] Melancholy is my favorite.
- [June] Melancholy, yeah.
(04:16):
- [Erica] It's my fave, andmy kid at two years old.
"Mama, my favorite word is melancholy."
- [June] Such a good word.
- [Erica] Yeah, I'm like,okay, I'm done parenting.
I've arrived.
But yeah, these otherfeelings that connect us
to a sense of ourselves and outward.
- [June] And the world as it is.
So that means if experiencing what we call
(04:38):
emotional diversity.
There are times when it'scompletely appropriate
to feel angry at social injustice,
at the world, you know,not going the way it could
or optimally ought to be.
And anger can motivate us to sort of
push towards social change or,you know, behavioral change.
(04:59):
There's times when embarrassment,
we find that it actuallycan be completely all right.
Although it can feel painful.
When you feel embarrassedother people like you more,
they trust you more.- They laugh.
- [Erica] Yeah, they seeyour humility, humanity.
- [June] So happinessis about experiencing
all the different...
The palette of emotions we find.
- [Erica] Yeah.
(05:20):
What brought you to this work?
I think, for myself, I spend so much time
as an artist and as a writer being with,
and I wonder what it's like to be with
on a neurological level,on a scientific level.
What brought you to bewith happiness so deeply?
- [June] I mean, part of it's interesting
about being a writer.
(05:41):
I always wanted to be a writerwhen I was in high school.
I loved English literature.
I loved reading about human experience.
And all of them, you know,whether I was reading, you know,
"1984" or "Lord of theFlies", or you know,
it was just learning about the human mind.
And I knew that I wanted totry to study it more deeply
in a way that I could also bring in math
(06:03):
and I could also bringin running experiments,
like to do all the things
to be able to understand happiness.
But what got me interestedin this in particular,
actually was not a class,
but I actually was an undergraduate
and I was shadowing a psychiatristthrough an inpatient unit
in the psychiatry unit.
And I was following her aroundas she went on her rounds
(06:26):
from patient to patient.
And I remember one patientthat we stopped and visited,
and it was a woman in sortof the acute throes of mania.
And I had never seenanything like that before.
- [Erica] And it was probably terrifying.
- [June] It was terrifyingand it was also absorbing
because here she was in thisvery fragile part of her life,
(06:46):
and at the same time she waslaughing, she was exuberant.
And I wanted to understandwhat that was about,
because all I knew atthat time from my classes
was in the positive psychology movement
where we were trying to foster happiness,
we were trying to think positive thoughts.
And this didn't fit with that
and I wondered what could it tell us?
(07:07):
- [Erica] Well, when I thinkabout Peter Pan and he says,
"Lovelier thoughts, Michael.
Lovelier thoughts.
From candy, Christmas."
And that's what makes you fly.
As part of our upbringing as young folks
and these are the storiesthat are told to us,
my mom always called me her happy camper.
And then as I went into art making,
my work was not fueled by my happiness.
(07:27):
It was fueled by the rain in Seattle
and screaming over the freeway.
It was fueled by heartache.
It was fueled by the goldthat poured back into my heart
to fill those cracks.
But it wasn't fueled by happycamper and lovelier thoughts.
And my path was to makeand yours was to question
and to ask and to get the data together.
(07:49):
And then you're still writing.
I mean, when I read thebystander altruism piece,
that has so much voice.
So you're still writingin ways that compel folks
towards your research.
Does it feel like writingor does it feel like
retelling of experiments?
So do you feel creativein the act as you write?
- [June] I find there'sdifferent kinds of writing
(08:10):
I get to do.
There's the writing I get to do
when I'm writing up a science experiment.
But there's this wholeother world of writing
that I've been enjoying doing more of.
So writing that op-ed about an experience
my friend Sabrina and Ihad in Brazil one night,
a very scary experience.
I'm working right now too, on a textbook
(08:33):
for Introduction to Psychology,
which has been wonderful to like,
think how can you teachstudents about the human mind?
And also thinking about writinga book about some of the-
- [Erica] A children's book?
I want a children's book.
- [June] I would love to.
Teaching kids about happiness.
- [Erica] Yeah.
And the notion, you saida sentence earlier on...
(08:54):
About what really is, what is,
how do we be with what isand still find pleasure,
wonder, and not justhappiness at that edge.
- [June] Totally.
And you know, as a momwith two little boys,
I think all the time aboutlike, we have this opportunity,
we can teach children andteach them these things young
(09:14):
so it becomes part of thefoundation of who they are
and what they thinkabout their own feelings.
I think about that, especiallyas a mom of two young boys,
where we need to fostergreater awareness of feelings
and all of them in a worldthat hasn't always supported
men experiencing all their feelings.
- [Erica] Yeah, I thinkthat that kid's book
would be for everybody.
(09:36):
I think it needs to happen.
- [June] I gotta do it?
- [Erica] You gotta do it.
You have to do it.
Do you think "Inside Out" did that?
The movie?
- [June] You know, my undergrad advisor
actually was one of theconsultants for the movie.
Dr. Keltner.
- [Erica] My face has a big, giant smile.
Okay, so talk to me about that,
'cause I wanna know that"Inside Out" is real
because I anthropomorphize everything.
Like, the science you canspeak is so beautiful,
(09:56):
but I gotta read it in metaphor.
"Inside Out."
- [June] Awesome movie.
- [Erica] Okay, good.
I'm allowed to like it.
- [June] Yeah, totally allowed to like it.
One of the things thatI really loved about it
is that it showed us thatdifferent emotions have...
They're like different characters.
They have different roles.
But they have to all be there
and they have to all work together,
(10:16):
even disgust.
Emotions that we really don't think, like,
why do I have this emotion?
What good does it do for me?
But it has its role in our lives.
And the part I love themost at the very end
is when Happiness and Sadnesshave to work together,
and that bittersweet feelings are like,
that's the human experience, right?
And that it can't justbe happiness all the time
(10:37):
leading the way.
I thought that wasbeautiful and I loved it.
- [Erica] Oh, and that word bittersweet.
It just does it right inthat one word, doesn't it?
- [June] Yeah.
- [Erica] Oh, bittersweet.
Ooh, that could be the title of the book.
- [June] You know, there'sa book called "Bittersweet"
by Susan Cain that justcame out and it's wonderful.
It's beautiful too.
And it's about how someof our greatest times
(10:57):
of sorrow and despair areactually the opportunities
for us to become more human.
- [Erica] I wanna read that book.
- [June] It's so good.
- [Erica] Yeah.
Oh, I love it.
So I wanna get back to the story
about the bystander experience.
And what happens...
There was a phrase thatI read that was really...
Like, just, I felt it in my human body,
(11:18):
around complacency.
There's a phrase that you use around,
when there's more peoplein the space than just one,
folks are...
They're not as eager to act in the moment.
I wrote it down, I can see itin my brain, but it's blurry,
so I'll keep thinking about it.
But it was this perfect phrasethat kind of swaddled...
This idea that we aregonna pass something off
(11:39):
if we don't have to stand into it.
Am I reading it right?
- [June] Yeah, we talk about it.
We call it diffusion of responsibility.
- [Erica] Diffusion of responsibility.
Thank you.- Yeah.
- [June] What's so interesting about it
is it's one of thesethings you learn early on,
and that when we're in agroup and something happens,
especially someone, you know,
maybe they're being robbed on the street,
that people, if theydon't have to be involved,
they just turn an eye and walk away.
(12:00):
And that that's whatwe're told to understand
and believe humans are about.
And it always made me sad.
It always made me feel sortof cynical about humanity.
And I think this experience showed me that
that doesn't have to be the case.
Like, there's hope for humanity,
especially in these times whenit can feel so challenging.
Sometimes it can feel really hard.
(12:22):
That there's still like,inherent human goodness.
- [Erica] Yes, especially whenyou feel danger in your body.
So you were traveling?
- [June] I was traveling.
I was in Sao Paulo with my friend Sabrina.
We were teaching acourse to students there
on creativity and happiness.
So like where art and psychology meet.
It was a dream.
It was a dream.
(12:43):
And one night we were leavingdinner, just her and I,
and we were walking up the street.
And out of just...
Literally, it was the blink of an eye.
I couldn't have even describedhaving an opportunity
to react right away 'causeit happened so fast.
Two men just pushed my friend to the side
and pushed me to the ground.
(13:04):
- [Erica] You are not a huge human person,
you are...
- [June] Not necessarily.
- [Erica] It doesn't taketwo to knock June down.
Now, maybe emotionally,psychologically, powerfully,
it takes a band, but two,two men outta nowhere.
- [June] Two men, outta nowhere,
you know, middle aged, like solid.
Solid people.
They had pushed me to the ground.
(13:26):
So I was on the ground andI had been holding my phone.
I shouldn't have been holding it out.
And as I was just gripped to it.
I don't even think in that moment
I quite knew it was happening.
But yeah, they were sort of both...
One was like pushing, pinningme down to the ground,
and the other was just likestriking me with his arms.
And I was just in themoment, in a blur like,
(13:48):
what is happening?
How much worse is this gonna get?
I believed it was going to be a lot worse.
And when is this going to end?
That's all I could think.
And my friend Sabrina, whois a very kind, very gentle,
not physically aggressive person at all.
She was standing back andwatching these two men over me.
I'm on the ground.
(14:09):
And just, just in a moment,
I don't think she even thought twice.
She went and just like whacked him.
She kicked him hard.
She does play soccer,so we think that helped.
But she whacked him with a foot.
- [Erica] Wow, she put herself in.
- [June] She did.
- [Erica] Into the mix.
- [June] She put her own safety at risk.
And I asked her about this.
Why did you do that?
(14:30):
Thank you, but why did you do that?
And she said, "Whatelse could I have done?
You were were in a dire situation
and no one else was reacting.
No one else was there in that moment."
And she said, "I honestlydidn't think twice."
And the man she kickedkind of lost his balance
and stumbled back.
(14:51):
And then they both just took off.
I think they didn't wanna messwith my friend or us anymore.
- [Erica] I don't wannamess with her either.
I love it.
And then it got you two to cometogether in this op-ed piece
and thinking about the different instances
where folks show up for one another.
- [June] Yeah.
We were floored what happened after that
because we thought that was sort of
the end of the situationand we were just gonna-
(15:12):
- [Erica] Oh, it felt likea film when I read it,
it felt like thisincredible slow one shot.
- [June] It was-
- [Erica] The responses.
- [June] Everyone.
We, we then, like, were standing there
and suddenly a man down the street yelled,
"They've got him, they've got him!"
And we walked down the streetand one of the men was there,
and suddenly there was awhole barrage of police there.
(15:34):
Someone else came up to usasking how we were doing.
Another guy drives by on a motorcycle,
"I'm gonna catch the second guy."
- [Erica] Whoa, just theworld sprang into action.
- [June] Sprung into action.
We were sort of in a littlebit of shock, but, you know,
everyone kept coming up to check with us.
Another person called our friend Paolo,
who had been our host for this workshop.
(15:55):
And he asked if he could come get us.
Everyone in that moment checkedin on how we were doing.
They ended up catching both of them,
which I don't think ever happened.
- [Erica] No, it's neverhappened in the history of time,
that they got both.
- [June] They got both.
And then they tended to us.
We went to the police stationand they took care of us.
They checked in on us andthey took us back to our hotel
(16:15):
later that night at twoin the morning, yeah.
- [Erica] And I bet every single human
who was in that situationwith you, and for you,
didn't leave feeling happy,
but they left feeling something.
- [June] And that's exactly it.
No one felt happy in that moment.
To feel happy in that moment,
I would think would havebeen toxic positivity, right?
Like, it wouldn't havemade sense in that moment.
It would've meant someonewas really out of touch
(16:38):
or insensitive, in fact.
No one felt happy but Ithink everyone felt connected
and get a sense of what wetalk about as like purposeful.
- [Erica] Yes.
- [June] Yeah.
- [Erica] I love that so much.
A sense of connected and purposeful.
Before you were taking classes
and studying the science of happiness,
what was your purpose?
(16:58):
When you were a kittengrowing up in Half Moon Bay,
what was your purpose?
Was it seashell organization?
Was it reading?
Was it...
How did you start to comeinto purpose as a young human?
- [June] Yeah.
So I feel so lucky togrow up in Half Moon Bay.
It was a small town at the time,
kind of pre SiliconValley era, on the ocean,
(17:21):
and a kind of small farming community.
- [Erica] I've driven through on the way
from north to south.
- [June] Yeah.
And I was an only child.
My mom was told shecouldn't have any kids,
and then I was a surprise, so-
- [Erica] Were you born in June?
- [June] I was.
I was, yeah, June born in June.
(17:42):
But I mean, it'sinteresting because I think
when I was young, I loved the ocean.
I loved going to the beach.
I loved just spending timelistening to the waves.
It's always like just built in me,
hearing the sound of the waves.
And I think I was always kind of curious
about living things, you know,
kind of broadly construed.
For a long time I thought Iwas gonna be a veterinarian.
(18:05):
I loved animals.
I still do.
We've got two dogs andwild animals in our yard,
bears and all kinds ofthings that come through.
- [Erica] Oh my gosh, where are you?
- [June] We are at Boulder Canyon.
- [Erica] Wow.
- [June] Near Fourmile.
So yeah, we've got bears,we've seen bobcats,
we've got all kinds of animal adventures.
They've broken into our cars.
- [Erica] Wow, so noocean, but a menagerie.
(18:27):
- [June] Yeah.
And we would have moreanimals if we could, I think.
And then I think the kind of caring
or being interested about livingbeings kind of switched...
Not switched, but like started as I was in
kind of a little bit older, gotreally interested in people.
And part of that was alsokind of inspired by my dad,
(18:49):
who, not until I was in high school,
did he start to tell meabout his own experiences
living with bipolar disorder.
That they had been kind of hidden.
That my mom had kind ofcovered it up, right?
And I was sort of leftin the dark as a child,
sort of knowing exactlywhat he was going through.
- [Erica] Did you feel thosemanic spikes that felt-
(19:09):
- [June] I remember moments.
- [Erica] Next to this kind of toxic.
- [June] I remember moments ofmy mom kind of protecting him
and protecting me fromknowing when he was struggling
or not explaining why for a year
he was at home all thetime and unemployed.
I didn't understand why.
And my dad was a great dad.
(19:31):
He was always fun andplayful and you know,
really great to be around.
But it wasn't until I was a teenager
that he kind of began tellingme kind of storytelling
about his experiences,
the parts that were inspiring,
the parts that were terrifying.
And it was through thatkind of human storytelling
that I felt like we...
(19:52):
Wow, this is lived experienceto all the extremes.
- [Erica] What a gift thathe gave you to share that.
- [June] And he still does,he still tells me his stories,
and I tell him my storiesfrom what I'm learning
and see what he thinks about it, you know,
bounce it off of him.
But it was through thatkind of human storytelling
(20:13):
that I got gripped andfelt like we've gotta
keep the human in all ofthis at the end of the day
because it's their storiesthat ultimately inspire us
to do what we're trying to do,
which is understand peoplebetter and help them.
- [Erica] Well, thanks for existing, June.
That makes me just really grateful
that you're on the planet,
because there's not so manyfolks who can hear those stories
(20:36):
and then not bounce them backoff their own and look for...
And not that you maybe didn't,
but not look for blame or oh, like,
the notion of this is justanother mirror for, for me.
But to really see and then get curious
about more and others,
which is a lot like whatyou were talking about
at the start of ourconversation that says,
when we focus ourselves outwardto others, we actually...
(20:59):
That's the sweet spot.
- [June] Yeah, I think so.
And I think we have a lot to learn
by like listening to others, right?
And not making it about yourself.
Right?
And I find like, you know,
my dad's the original storyteller,
but I've heard so many stories since then.
We bring people into my psychology lab
and we essentially have us tell stories,
(21:21):
whether it's like, tell me about the time
you lived through mania or thekind of depths of depression
and what was that like?
We also have people even tell us stories
about their most memorableemotional events in their lives.
And we transcribe them,we look at their stories,
we look at the words they use,how they tell the stories.
- [Erica] That's a question I have
is when we talk about the...
You know, I just think about it in kind of
(21:42):
the young, inner-Freudian way,
the latent, the manifest, the content,
the the words that we use.
And this comes up for me a lot when I...
And I've mentioned iton the podcast before,
that when I try to tell astory, I try to tell it new,
so that I can create a newgroove to my understanding.
So I'm not just readingthe book of my life,
but I'm creating it in new ways.
(22:03):
Did you ask folks when theycame in to tell a story one way
and then tell it again another and...
Or is it kind of that first hit,
what language they use, thatshows up as a indicator?
- [June] I mean, that'san awesome question.
So in those stories, we askthem their kind of first pass,
but we've actually...
There's this amazing worklooking at how people's stories
change over time, as they'recoping through something
(22:25):
really stressful or really traumatic.
And you can actually just literally see it
in like the tense of verbs they use.
Do they become...
Do they use like moreI versus we versus you?
Do they tend to havejust like literal words
that reflect more likewhat we call insight.
And the more they tendto use like these words
that affect insight,
that become less aboutI and more about we,
(22:47):
over time, you actually seethat they're less stressed.
If they've had symptoms of depression,
those tend to ease up andthat you can literally see
these changes throughthe words they're using.
- [Erica] Can we do afast-paced therapeutic
and just start using weinstead of I all the time?
Would it do it?
If we were to talk about ourselves?
- [June] We see this in couples actually.
When you get couples tohave a conflict conversation
(23:10):
and every couple can think ofsomething they can talk about.
The more couples are instructed to use we
or use we over time,instead of I versus you,
you see them closer together.
They're less distanced.
So yes, like the we starts to change.
Like we're not alone.
And in fact, we'reconnected with other people,
which is just so beautiful, right?
And our literally words, asingle word can show that,
(23:32):
which is so...
I just think it's so beautiful
and you go back to thinkingabout writing and reading
and when I was in high school,
wanting to be an English major,
it's all about the wordsand stories that I think
at the end of the day.
- [Erica] I could keep going,
but we gotta go to the quick and dirty.
Do you know what this is?
- [June] No.
- [Erica] Okay.
This is a time where I'mgonna ask you questions
(23:53):
and you have to answer it quick,
but you don't have to be dirty.
But that's my favorite, that's my tagline.
It's a quick and dirty.
Okay.
Ready?
- [June] Yeah.
- [Erica] Okay.
An anding approach to toxic positivity,
like poetry and rain.
- [June] Hmm.
Happy and sad.
(24:14):
- [Erica] Great.
Bitter and sweet.
Right, right.- Yeah.
Okay.
Your go-to anding combination to relax.
- [June] Ooh, so this is an and as well.
- [Erica] Yeah.
And it can have and in theword like sand castle building,
or it could be...
- [June] Ooh.
- [Erica] And another and, another...
- [June] Ooh, this is so hard to go quick.
(24:35):
To me, it would be likeocean wave listening
and drinking tea.
- [Erica] All but the tea.
I just really can't do the tea part,
but I am with you on the tea part.
I was like, oh, I wanna do yoga.
And then I would say coffee afterwards.
- [June] Ah.
- [Erica] But we could do that.
(24:55):
We could do yoga and tea coffee.
- [June] Yeah.
- [Erica] Okay, I love it.
Okay, a psychology basedmovie's research flaw.
So we say "Inside Out" is good,but like mania and da da da.
That like a movie showedus and it's wrong.
They just got it wrong.
Like, when the doctorswatch "Grey's Anatomy"
and they're like, "No,
that is not how you do an appendectomy."
(25:17):
What is an anding combo that is just,
like, "Criminal Minds", just blew it?
- [June] Hmm.
I think of "Killing Eve" and psychopathy.
- [Erica] Okay, talk to me about that.
- I think we think of psychopathy
as the dark side of humanity,
as like the deepest, mostevil way a human being can be.
And we think of Ted Bundy,
(25:37):
we think of these caricatures of people
who go out murdering that arecruel, that are heartless,
and it just stigmatizes psychopathy
when we know it's so much more than that.
Most people who have those kind of traits
don't go out killing and murdering people,
but they struggle with their feelings.
They struggle to feel certainkinds of feelings deeply,
(25:57):
and sometimes feel disconnectedfrom others because of it.
- [Erica] And these projectionsof those folks not helping.
- [June] Not helping, makes us scared.
- [Erica] Makes us scared.
Yeah, okay.
I heard you say that HalfMoon Bay has changed,
but if I were to go now,
what are the anding things I'd do
besides listening to ocean waves and tea?
(26:17):
- [June] Ooh.
I would say buying pumpkinsand eating burritos.
- [Erica] I love that.
Okay, do they have pumpkin burritos?
Do they have like a squash fest burrito?
- [June] They have thebiggest pumpkin festival
in the state of California.
- [Erica] Yes, Half Moon Bay.
- [June] It's its claim to fame.
- [Erica] That's itsclaim to fame, amazing.
Okay.
A neuroscience idea weshould all frantically Google
(26:39):
that has and in it.
- [June] Ooh.
I would say reward and technology.
- [Erica] Okay, be right back.
I'm Googling that.
All right, our final thing,
this is something we liketo do on "The Ampersand,"
is ask folks if theyhad a blessing, a wish,
a sendoff to graduates, to a beloved,
(27:02):
to an ancestor that began with and.
And may you always...
And should your path...
What's June's?
- [June] I would say, andmay you have your feelings.
All of them.
- [Erica] That was June Gruber,
Associate Professor ofPsychology and Neuroscience
(27:24):
at the University of Colorado Boulder.
We'll put more informationabout June's research
in the show notes.
"The Ampersand" is a production
of the College of Arts and Sciences
at the University of Colorado Boulder.
It is written and producedby me, Erica Randall,
and Tim Grassley.
If there are people you'dlike us to interview
on "The Ampersand",
do please email us at ASinfo@colorado.edu.
(27:49):
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker,
and the episodes are recordedat Interplay Recording
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erica Randall, andthis is "The Ampersand."
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.