The Ampersand Summer Special

We're back! Our lovely listening ANDers made season one such a huge success that we're spending this summer recording seasons two and three of The Ampersand! While we're hanging out at Interplay Recording in Boulder learning about toxic happiness, playing with gender in Dungeons and Dragons and the way music can mobilize people toward a just and equitable society, we wanted to offer listeners something to satiate their thirst for the alchemy of ANDing. 

I hope you'll enjoy this conversation between me, Erika Randall, and Producer Tim Grassley about The Ampersand's origins and the surprises along the way.

---

Recorded at Interplay Recording.

Theme music written and performed by Nelson Walker.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
(bright music)

(00:04):
- Hello, ANDers.
I have incredible news.
We are back at InterplayRecording in Boulder, Colorado
to record season two andthree of The Ampersand,
coming to your favorite podcast platform
beginning this September.
(whispers) When I turn 50.
(bright music)
To satiate our listeners lovefor the alchemy of ANDing,

(00:25):
we're releasing abehind-the-scenes conversation
between producer Tim and meabout The Ampersands origins,
how exactly we come upwith the quick and dirty,
and the stories we tell ourselves.
Give us a listen andremember to check back soon
for more episodes of The Ampersand.
(bright music)

(00:50):
Okay, back to ands.
I have another questionfor you, Tim Grassley.
- Oh.
I have one for you as well.
Back at you.
- Okay, I'm gonna say,
because you're a writer anda poet and a word lover.
Favorite book title with "And".
- Hmm.
Oh, shoot.

(01:10):
It doesn't have "And" in it.
(both laugh)
- See, it's harder.
This game is harder than
our people make it lookwho come on the show.
- It's true, yeah.
I think really it's impressivewhen we have a guest like
Sammy who can rattle somethingoff really rapidly, or-
- Even if it's cheating,a couple of them cheated,
but they still had an answer.

(01:31):
- But it is really impressive
because having actuallyheard all of their answers
and having thought, actually,
what would I say in this context?
I did not think about booktitles and I have no idea.
- You are stumped.
- Yeah, I was.
- War and peace.
Can you just go Russian lit?
Can we just do the obvious, my friend?
- All of them.
- All of the Russian books.

(01:52):
- Because you get halfwaythrough and you need a new title,
but the...
Yeah.
Geez.
And I think the other challengethat I'm running into here
is I keep thinking thesame title over and over
and over again.
- And that's not helping you.
Okay, you got any questions for me?
- Yeah, so I'm actuallyreally interested to know
why you wanted to dothis in the first place.
So you know, the story of the podcast

(02:14):
is that you had an idea aboutwhat this area of interest is,
and you had been talkingto people about it,
and then you were like, "Hey,I wanna make a podcast, Tim,
can you make that happen?"
And I was like, "Yeah, this is fun.
Sounds great."
- And it was like the second time we met.
- Right, and this sounds cool,
and I have ideas abouthow we would make it work,
but I'm interested to juxtapose

(02:37):
your initial impetus for this one.
And then supplement that withwhat I was thinking, I guess.
- I love that.
- Okay.
So on what would've been oursecond professional date,
and I said,
I wanna do a podcast andI wanna talk about ANDing.
Did I get that far in it?
- Mm-hm.
- Okay.
So what I have been so excitedabout is turning things that

(02:57):
aren't usually verbs into verbs
and how I see that in other folks.
And when I witness it in them,
it does hold a mirror back tome and it helps me see, oh,
it's not just that you'reendlessly busy or you're crazy
busy, as everyone always says,
you're actually connectedto all of these things
that you are inspired by.
And when you are inspired byother folks who are doing that,
when you hear their stories,it actually lights that in you.

(03:19):
So I thought about writingabout it, and I love writing,
but this felt like it really needed
the voice of the other human.
And if it was written by me,
it would be translated into my voice.
So then interviewing folks,which I love human people,
and I wanted to talk to moreof them in my gig where I felt
like I could just be doing email and zoom.

(03:40):
This felt like, yeah,
let's do this thing where welet other folks tell us about
how they're verbingand I get to meet them.
I get to sit with them, feel their energy,
be in a human space,
and that other people canreceive it in a podcast.
So that was the jam.
What about you?
What did you think?
- So when you startedtalking about ANDing,
I think the reason whyit resonated with me is,

(04:02):
I am somebody who, I can'tstay in a lane, for years,
I would hold a job for18 months to two years,
and then I would switch becauseI just, I would get bored.
I would need to do something else.
And so I only recently,

(04:23):
I also juxtaposed that toa pretty, what I saw was
a high emphasis culturallygoing on of specialization.
That people were becoming what,
I'll use the word craftsman,of a very specific skill,
and they were rewarded for it.
And so I think there was alittle bit of me that was like,

(04:45):
ah, that's so cool.
And I will never be ableto become a craftsman.
Just, I can't pay attention long enough.
And so I was like, oh, geez,
this sounds like someone whois leaning into generalization,
but in a way that getsinto specialization.

(05:05):
And I thought that was interesting.
I thought it was-
- The third thing, right?
That's what I'm always excited.
Like, what's the thirdthing that comes out of?
- We weren't setting theseup against one another.
You weren't like, I had also heard like,
the future of higher educationis interdisciplinarity.
Right?
And I was like, yeah, yeah, that's right.
The generalists are all freaking out.
But I think what you were saying was,

(05:26):
let's step away from these two things.
- Yes.
And the words that we've beenusing that get kind of coined
and kitschy and catchy,
and they don't tend to meananything after a while.
Like, yeah, how do we find new...
- Right.
New language entirely for embracing,
seeing all of these disparateinterests as a superpower,

(05:47):
as something that makes you you.
And so I just thought thatwas really exciting and cool.
And so what I started to dowas search for people that
seemingly were doing that,that weren't tied down to,
"Hey, I'm a...."
- "I'm a this."
- I'm a blah," yeah.
"I'm a very specific thing."

(06:10):
And it opened up a prettywonderful Pandora's box
because you had beensaying as well as I was
starting to search forpeople, everybody does this.
They just don't always talk about it.
And to varying degrees.
And it was fun to see just howvarying those degrees were.

(06:33):
- I mean,
it's amazing to me when I lookat what gets people excited
and I can be excited withthat person's excitement,
you know, for the conversation.
But the fact that they theywill devote their lives
to these things, likeme and dance, you know,
like, and words.
And there's,
it's that folks can carethat much about bugs,

(06:57):
that they finds a thousand waysto pray in the form of bugs.
Like that's the thing.
So it's a trip and I, yeah, I love it.
And it's super,
it's just fun to get totalk to people and not know.
I think part of what's beenthe joy of doing this is we
script it, but then it's, you know,

(07:20):
just stones moving in a riverand the conversation is just
going all over and there'ssomething holding it,
which has been really, youknow, exciting and galvanizing.
I think both for the humanswe talk to and for me
and hopefully for the listeners,
but it's so free where theconversation goes once you start
to spark with these different ideas.
And I think that's what thoseideas do in that kind of third

(07:42):
thing, spark of a way, to use Tim's,
one of Tim's favorite words, spark.
It's exciting to just bethinking with new ideas
and to watch these brilliant people
think with this new concept
and see themselves andtheir work differently.
Yeah, it's been a joy.
- Yeah.
What are some of the surprisesthat have come along the way?
'cause I'm sure you had theexpectations about how this

(08:03):
would go, and then, I mean,
beyond just the actual execution of it,
of sitting in a room recording this thing,
but what has surprised you?
- Well, it was really surprising, Hailey.
I thought I, you know,
I knew Hailey as studentand I thought I knew how,
maybe she might answer, butshe went through this like,

(08:24):
kind of beautiful, like you could,
we talk about the alchemy of ANDing.
She had like an alchemicresponse in her body in real time
on the show.
And it was super cool towatch her go, "Oh yeah,
I'm gonna take this and this.
And that's who I am.
And I always have been this awesome?"
That was awesome for me.
I also was kind of stunnedby the tenderness of the

(08:46):
conversation with Gabby.
I've been in spaces with Gabby
and I'm so inspired by her ferocity.
And so to see the tenderside of her ferocity
and still see that, it stillhas teeth, but it's, oh.
That was just, that wasa lovely conversation.
Yeah.
And then there's a moment whenChristopher Lowry is talking

(09:07):
about walking into the field.
And I was there and he was in poet mode.
So here's this scientist who'sgot so many crazy passions
and endlessly curious,
and the detail of his mindaligns with my understANDing of
detail from a place of poetry.

(09:28):
And he's doing it from a space of science,
and they're the exact same thing.
Yeah.
- That's cool.
I think I was...
That's very cool.
I think I was really surprisedat how significant it was to
the interviewees as well as to us
that I think I initiallypursued these people

(09:51):
because I thought theywere intriguing people.
That Gabby's work as a filmmaker
is fascinating that shesees this medium as a method
to bring about a more just
and equitable society is very cool.
- Especially at her time in her life.
- Right.

(10:12):
So young and still crushing it.
- To form and content.
- And so they,
I knew that they wouldall be fascinating people
in their own way.
I just tend to be fascinated by people.
But I was surprised athow much it meant to them
to have this opportunity for someone
to listen to their story.

(10:33):
With the desire to broadcast it.
And that's fascinating.
'cause I think it's also the,
I mean the fascinatingthing about this as a method
is it's really vulnerable
for these people to come onand share what makes them tick.
What makes like these passions
that maybe they don'ttalk about that often.
I mean they, to varying degrees,

(10:54):
Sammy probably talks aboutwhatever his interests are
wherever he is.
- But to get to landthem all in one space.
Yeah.
- Where somebody is saying,
that's great that you love entomology.
Lemme talk about gospel choir.
Wait, what are you singing?
Tell me about that.
- But isn't that the like,first date we all dream of?
- [Laughs] Right.

(11:14):
- Where someone actually caresabout your dimensionality
and isn't trying to make you be same same,
or connect to something about them.
'cause that's, I mean,
that's kind of the cool thingabout this is it isn't about
approving anything, it'sjust about learning.
So I am like, ah, show it.
Like share it all.
That's, I think, don't weall wanna be seen like that?

(11:36):
- I think so.
I mean,
it's been a long time sinceI've been on my first date, but.
- But did you feel thatway on your first date?
- So I did.
That was partially my,
I vividly remember my roommatessaying, "So how'd it go?"
And I said, "I have never been on a date
like the date that Iwent on with my partner,"
because she was askingme really hard questions.

(11:56):
- Yeah.
That got at all of you.
- Yeah.
That she was like,
"It's great that you love the color blue,
but I would like to know whatit is about language that
sparks your curiosity.
That's interesting.
How do you think thataffects your day to day?"
So she was asking these like, intense,

(12:17):
wide open questions for me, and...
- And that feels.
- Yeah.
I mean, I was like, I feel seen,
I don't know if she felt that way.
I hope so.
'Cause she said yes to date two.
(both laugh)
So I'm assuming it went okay.
- I think it went great.
- But I think that issomething that we all hope for.

(12:39):
And maybe that's what people recognize.
I mean, something thathas been very cool to see
is the degree ofexcitement that people feel
at the potential of beingable to come onto this show.
I think that was also a pleasant surprise.
- That they wanna be here.
- That they wanna be here.
That this could function
as a way to tell thesereally fascinating stories

(13:04):
in a beautiful way for people
who may or may not be celebrities.
I think that's kind of awesome.
- It's really awesometo get to be the star
of your own life.
In that moment and get toshare it out with folks.
I think there's also something too,
when we look at academicswho talk about their work,
and we got a lot of friendson here who are academics
and-

(13:24):
- What? (laughs)
- Just saying.
That it's often an expectationto share your research
and that your resumebecomes your identity.
And so when you get tothink back into your body
and your memory and your own human story,
and then also, you know,
riff and let that bumpoff of your research,

(13:46):
that's not your usual journal panel.
It's not the way you standup in front of a class.
Oh, that was a really cool moment.
We were talking with oneof our guests about, oh,
who do you share that with, Sarah?
Do you share the personalwith your students, Sarah?
I was like, huh.
Like it had never occurred to her.
And that, ah, maybe, yeah,

(14:07):
because that's what got meexcited was my human story.
Having an experience and then diving deep.
How could we use that to getothers, lit students, you know,
our our neighborhood folkswho maybe even just say,
how are you doing today?
What would it be like toactually share something
and build connection?

(14:27):
So that's our secretmission of The Ampersand
is to build connection.
- Yeah.
So you've mentioned in theintro a few times that you are a
dancer, mother, filmmaker,college administrator,
yada yada yada.

(14:48):
So will you give us the brief bio?
Will you do-
- Dancer first.
- You know, our wonderfulconnection to Tacoma, Washington,
just to shout out to a funny place.
- I love it.
- Tacoma, Washington inthe nineties. (laughs)
- Making work at PLU to theBulgarian women's choir.
I know.
Which I just listened to recently.

(15:08):
'cause it has that kindof winter solstice,
like (satisfied sigh) yeah.
Okay.
So I always say dancer first.
And I hope that that'snot just aspirational
and that my knees continueto love that identity.
But I just am such a dancer person.
I see the world through movement.
And I love words and I loveall the things that come up for

(15:30):
me with filmmaking andmovement and words and language
and writing.
But when I write,
I'm also tracking my bodyto find the right verb
and the right feeling,
and then trying to express that in words.
So the body is always the thing.
It's a dancer.
And then the hardest part is mother
because it's got so muchache and tenderness in it

(15:52):
and you can't controlit or even pretend to.
So like,
dancing in my own body and thedetails of words and making,
I can at least pretend to control.
A Human comes in withhis own karma and says,
"I'm your kid."
Oh.
And I love him, 11 yearsold, lightning in a bottle.
And it's really,
I learned so much aboutmyself in the ways that

(16:17):
I have to keep rememberingthat I need to be
improvising and playing
and all the other ways of ANDingso that I don't just mother
in the way I think ofthat as a singular verb,
that's huge for me.
Or I will lose my mind.
I'm an administrator.
I care about students and their success.
And so I work with ateam of incredible humans

(16:37):
to make sure that studentsare thriving in the academy.
And that we as an academy are thriving
because we're attending to our students
who are all ANDers naturally.
And they're all like doing this thing.
Talk about crushing it.
They're ANDing all day andthey're teaching me all the time
about verbing.
And I think yeah, being a collaborator,
I talk about that.

(16:58):
'cause I actually like thecollaboration that we have.
We're making somethingI would've never made,
I would've never gotten to do this.
And so, and that's the dream.
And then all of a suddenTim will write like a thing.
Okay.
Our dear listeners have to knowthat Tim will write a thing.
And it sounds so much like me.
And we've only known eachother for like 10 minutes
and it's kind of creepy.
'cause he could just forgeletters to all of you

(17:18):
and you'd think it was from me,
and I'm sure he is gonnaget my signature down.
But it's like,
it's also in that way of being seen,
it's like the best firstdate over and over again.
Every time you share backto me my voice and, thanks.
- Yeah.
Yeah.
- Collaborating.
- Collaborating is big.
- Love it.
I love it.

(17:39):
How'd I do?
Was that a good bio?
- That's a great bio.
I'm gonna ask a potentially hard question.
I don't think it's actually hard,
but I heard that the storieswe tell say more about where
we are right now than the actual accuracy
of the stories themselves.

(18:01):
And so I'm interested to know,we can keep this to ANDing,
but what are the ANDing storiesyou're telling right now?
And what do you think they say about
where you are right now?
- Well,
I 112% agree with the wayyou're framing this question.
'Cause when I speak tofirst year students,
and we do this thing where wekind of tell our dance career,
and I have been, I used to have a script

(18:23):
that I would kind of,
when I talk about goingto the Julliard school,
and I would talk about thequote that I would say when I
left Julliard, "My name ismore important than yours."
And I had this like script,how I left Julliard at 19.
And I would tell it in the same way
that I wasn't learning anything from it.
- Oh, interesting.
- Yeah.
'Cause I wasn't even hearing it anymore.

(18:44):
I was just talking aboutbeing weighed in on Fridays,
wrapping my buddy in Saran wrap.
Like all,
I was just saying this litanyof things and I was like, oh,
this isn't telling anythingabout you right now
and you're not learning,
why tell this story againand again the same way?
So I love the way you frame that question.
Things that I'm thinkingabout ANDing right now...

(19:05):
- It can be, I mean really,so I'm interested about
the actual stories that you'retelling on a regular basis.
So when you think of storiesyou tell at a cocktail party
about who you are and not just in
the abstract form, you know,
like not just in the abstract labels
that we're talking about.

(19:25):
It's more like, when I was in,so a junior in high school,
I listened to Tool.
And blah, blah, blah.
This is what that meant.
- Like when I tell the story of
the worst lie I've ever told,
which I have this great storyof having a show and tell
moment where I have thisincredible Madame Alexander doll.

(19:47):
Like those dolls thatwould be, this one was
Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz.
And like I will, I have ascript, I have an old script.
I'm not gonna read that script.
I'm gonna tell the story differently
'cause it's about lying andit's about drama and comedy.
And it's also about pleasing my mother.
I'm realizing, which isreally important right now.
'cause my mom is not her healthiest.

(20:09):
So the way I used to tell the story
was just all comic effect.
It was just like, ta ta ta, it's a pow!
And then I get to thepunchline, "It's a miracle."
And that's the punchline,is "It's a miracle!"
Okay.
So when I get to that part,when I get to the punchline,
you'll know that's theway I used to tell it.
But that's not what thestory would be about
if I were to tell it to youtoday in a cocktail party.
So I go to this show andtell I wanna be the best

(20:29):
at show and tell.
I wanna win show and tell.
(both laugh)
And so it's not enough that I have
a Madame Alexander Dorothy doll,
I tell this lie and start fake crying
in front of Mrs. Walt Smith's class
that my mom was in a car accident
and broke both her arms and legs
and sent the nurse(chuckles) down to the store

(20:53):
at the hospital, you know, dah dah dah,
to get me a one last present.
And I get like ulterior.
Okay.
That's the way I used to tell the story.
And then I would saythe teacher comforted me
and the class was so sad
and they all wanted to see the doll.
And then I walked outside.
'cause I thought my grandfather
was picking me up from school that day.
And there comes my mombounding out of the Buick,
and I fall to my kneesand say, "It's a miracle!"

(21:14):
(both laugh)
Okay.
But now when I tell thisstory in a split screen,
Hannah Gadsby style, Ialready told you the end.
So that that's not the punchline.
But what I see rightnow in my body is like,
I get teary thinking, oh, mymom bounded out of the car,
and today she's on six liters of oxygen.

(21:35):
So I think, and my momis always so beautiful.
She's in these thin cut jeans
and this scoop neck cream sweater.
I've never described my momwhen I've told this story.
And she's got this gorgeousshoulder length hair when all
the other moms wore like haircuts.
My mom had this long wild hair,
which is probably why I don't cut my hair.
And she was just the mostbeautiful woman in the world.

(21:57):
And she bounded, she has somuch, she had so much energy.
So today I would tell thatstory as a way of feeling into
how much I loved my mom.
And I always wanted to belike the best for my mom
because she was the most beautiful woman
who had boundless energy.
And today she's sitting in ahospital feeling like crap.

(22:18):
And yeah.
So it feels,
it becomes tender instead of a punchline.
Did that answer it?
- Yeah.
That's a great answer.
Yeah.
- It's a funny story theway I used to tell it.
- It's hysterical.
(both laugh)
- "It's a miracle!"
- I mean, who wants to win-

(22:39):
- Who wants to win and show and tell.
Me, this guy.
- Yeah.
But that is, it's profoundthe way it shifts.
Yeah
- Didn't know that.
Didn't know that about that story.
Thanks Tim Grassley.
So what's so funny about TimGrassley in my life is that I
knew you as an email voice for years
and I had no idea of who you are.

(23:01):
And there's a lot of people in our lives
who are just email signatures.
And now in Zoom world, they're not even,
they don't even have bodies anymore.
I would just, you always existed,
even when you were just an email to me,
you were existing havingthis whole human life.

(23:21):
Doesn't that just, how canwe talk to everyone enough?
How can we get to like,
how do you in this onewild and precious life
wanna know people?
How do you wanna come to know people?
'Cause there's so manypeople that we experience,
but we don't know.
So what does that look like for you?
Or are you happy with your five people?

(23:42):
- So I do love my five people,
and it's probably more like three people.
But something that Ithink I am leaning into
as a superpower is that
I effectively mirror people pretty well.

(24:05):
And for a long time, thisis a whole different story,
but is that was a survivalmechanism for me to get through
middle school in particular.
But what I was able to do isjust reflect people's state
really well.

(24:26):
Over time I think I'vemashed that together
with a curiosity about people's stories,
just who they are as individuals,
as distinct humans who experiencethe world in a way that's
different than the wayI experience the world.
And that's something that'sjust fascinating to me.
And so I've mashed that together with
a desire to ask interestingopen-ended questions.

(24:48):
And so I think, I mean,
the pandemic messed thisup pretty well for me
because I realized, (laughs)
I realized at a partyrecently that I just,
I need to work on my social skills again.
I'm just struggling with just asking
get to know you questions.
Because I go straight tothese pretty heavy ones

(25:11):
that, I think the benefitof it when it works out
is what I end up doing is
genuinely getting to know somebody.
Even for 60 seconds.
- And then getting to know youfrom that depth of question.
I mean, that says somuch about who you are.
- Right.
So I think to answer yourquestion, what do we do?
Because there's so many people,

(25:33):
you ask interesting questionsof the people who are in front
of you and just see what happens.
Something my,
I have a seven year old sonwho really often does the same
things, that he willask these really rich,
profound philosophical questions.
And for seven year olds thatcan be tough to process.

(25:56):
I think we are not reallyaccustomed to asking those
questions of one another andbeing able to say to somebody
who's in front of you,it's something that I,
so as a barista at Starbucks,
and it was one of those experiencesthat actually really did
profoundly shape howI engage with my world

(26:18):
because Starbucks, for all of its faults,
has an expectation of itsbaristas that you'll make an
emotional connection in under 35 seconds.
- It happens almost every time.
It's why I go there.
- And it's why you pick itover other coffee shops.
- Yeah, Erika with a K, they know.
- Right, exactly.
Over places withsubstantially better coffee.

(26:40):
- That's part of your, that's not real?
- Right, well, it's not-
- Oh God, wait, wait, wait, Ithought they cared about me.
- Well, they possibly do.
I think that's the thing is...
- You start caring once you start caring.
- Right, exactly.
So you can say,
you can be cynical and say it's artificial
because it's trained, but atthe same time, I got to know
people that just kept coming back.

(27:02):
- It's a muscle.
- It's a muscle.
- Caring and gratitude muscle.
- And also, so caringand gratitude, but also
the capacity to ask somebodysomething significant about
themselves or about theirday so that they feel even a
glimpse of feeling seen.
And it's something that Ithink we can do a lot more of.

(27:24):
I think a podcast is areally wonderful opportunity
to blast that out to the world
and hopefully to thousands of listeners.
But even in a daily conversation,
when we're drifting around oldMaine or even across campus,
like today I have a volunteer thing,
then I'm gonna go to havingthe chance to say to somebody

(27:46):
what makes them tick, Ithink is pretty awesome.
So yes.
I mean, I know that foryears I was the email voice.
And there is somethingbizarre about that too.
- Because you're thatfor a lot of people too.
- Yeah.
I'm that for thousands of people.
- So what is it like for youto get to show up dimensional?

(28:09):
- (laughs) Sometimes It's, sometimes.
- Sometimes you like beingthe man behind the curtains?
- Well, yeah.
- Producer Tim.
- It's more about, howdid you envision me?
I mean, I'm still kind of, I think,
middle school insecure about that,
but I'm also curious.
- How did I envision you?
- It's like, how did I show up in email?

(28:31):
I think that's also fun to talk about.
- It was super generous.
Like really, like, you really care.
I thought that you only caredabout theater and dance from
(Tim laughs)
your, I thought you were onlyasking these questions of us.
'Cause we had such great content.
I mean, I honestly,
it was funny to me nowwhen I think I'm like, oh,
Tim Grassley asks that of everybody,
which doesn't ultimatelymake me feel less special

(28:54):
in our now friendship.
- You guys do have phenomenal content.
- We do have great content.
I mean, dancers give good content.
But yeah, it felt so much like care.
And I think that's an extraordinary gift.
And in this moment in timewhen we can get anyone to care
about anything for just thatlength of a latte or the length

(29:16):
of a podcast or just thelength of a connection
to the grocery store,we're doing something
in our human existence.
- Yeah.
So that's The Ampersand.
- The Ampersand.
- Trying to get people tocare about their stories.
- Yeah, caring and listening.
Yeah.
Thanks Tim Grassley.
- Yeah.
Thanks Erika Randall.

(29:37):
- You're welcome.
- (laughs) Onward to season two.
- Season two!
(bright music)