October 9, 2023 • 44 mins
Today's guest, Mikayla Huffman, is pursuing a PhD in astrophysical and planetary sciences at the University of Colorado Boulder. Huffman's research delves into numerical modeling of impacts onto icy bodies, crater mapping on rocky bodies and cometary spectroscopy. She is also an exceptional dungeon master (DM) who leads epic, year-plus campaigns through a variety of Dungeons and Dragons worlds. Tune in to hear more about astrophysics and the manner D&D creates space for people to discover how they want to show up in our modern world.
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For more about Mikayla's research and love of Dungeons and Dragons, visit Mikayla's website. Follow Mikayla on X. Mikayla's Youtube channel. Music by Nelson Walker. Episodes recorded at Interplay Recording in Boulder, CO.Written and produced by Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(typewriter clicking)
- A and S.
(typewriter clicking)
Hey ANDers.
This week we're doing something different
to kick off our episode.
Our guest, Mikayla Huffman,is pursuing her PhD
in astrophysical and planetaryscience at CU Boulder.
A piece of her alchemy is
(00:21):
guiding Dungeons and Dragonscampaigns as a dungeon master.
So, instead of takingyou all into my brain,
here's Mikayla leading us on ajourney into her imagination.
(uplifting music)
I can imagine MikaylaHuffman, clad in plate armor,
swinging a great sword as tall as she is.
(00:41):
The battlefield around you smokes,
the acrid vapors rising
from the glowing pools oflava hidden among the basalt.
Squinting through the haze,you can make out your enemy,
a hoard of pink brainsskittering around the rocks
on taloned legs.
She turns to you,
her short brown hair slickedto her forehead with sweat.
"Get out of here, I got this," she yells.
(01:03):
You see a tendril emergefrom the nearest brain
as it leaps towards you.
It makes contact.
And in a bright flash oflight, the scene disappears.
You come to in an empty white space,
blank as far as the eye can see.
Slowly a shape begins toemerge out of the mist.
Mikayla, clad in a t-shirt and jeans,
(01:24):
steps from the swirling fog.
(record scratching)
Whoops, looks like you got sucked in.
Welcome to my brain, I guess.
Let me show you around.
Doors appear.
She leads you past them.
They have labels
like numErikal simulationsof impacts onto icy bodies,
bad character voices, ball python facts.
She stops in front of aninnocuous looking door.
(01:45):
The label simply reads "The Universe."
"This is the mostimportant one," she says.
"It's where all of ourjourneys begin and end.
It's what holds us together."
She cracks open the door.
Let's go.
I can't imagine MikaylaHuffman not asking questions.
(02:06):
If anyone was born to be ascientist, it would be her.
But what good is curiosity
if it doesn't bring people together?
Through her science,
she studies the connections and rules
that govern the cosmos.
Through her outreach andDungeons and Dragons campaigns,
she studies the connectionsbetween human beings,
and how we can betterunderstand each other.
(02:27):
(uplifting music)
On "The Ampersand,"
we call this bringingtogether of the impossible
the alchemy of ANDing.
Together, we'll hear stories
of humans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunction junction kinda way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
(02:50):
a way to speak the beautiful
when you intentionally let the soft animal
of your body love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks,
"What is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?"
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating and collaborating,
it reminds me to replace a singular idea
of what I think I should become
(03:10):
with a full sensoryverb about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall,
and this is MikaylaHuffman on "The Ampersand."
(electronic music)
- I had a pretty roughexperience the summer
after my freshman year of undergrad,
(03:33):
where I applied for a physics internship.
I had good grades, soI got a phone interview
with unnamed chief engineerat large corporation.
He, like, got on the phone,
and was asking me all thesequestions about physics history.
And I hadn't taken aphysics history class yet.
And his tone, like, changed immediately
(03:54):
when I said I went toa liberal arts college.
He was like, "Have you takenmulti-variable calculus yet?
Have you taken quantum mechanic?"
- Checklist came out.
- Yeah, and I'm like, I'm a freshman.
And then he started saying, like,
"Are you sure you evenwanna be a scientist?
Like, do you know
that atoms are made ofprotons and neutrons?
Do you know what an electric field is?"
Like, totally dismissive.
And for a really long time, I was like,
(04:14):
oh my God, I'm not goodenough to be a scientist,
'cause this guy-
- You took it as a critique of you?
- Yeah, yeah.
Because I didn't know thatthat was complete nonsense
that he was saying.
Oh, and then he was like,
"I'm not gonna give you the job,
but you can come and meetthe person I do give it to.
And so I came and met the guy,and it was a 14 year old boy.
- Hold the phone.
- I know.
(04:34):
- I'm not gonna give you the job, but-
- Yep.
I know, I know.
Totally nuts.
But because I was, you know,
a young impressionable, like, undergrad,
I was like, oh man, Iam not cut out for this.
And it was only when Italked to female mentors
in the field,
I had a great pre-majoradvisor, Patricia Valley,
and she was like, "Whywould he say that to you?"
(04:56):
And I was like, "Yeah, whywould he say that to me?"
That's nonsense.
And that's when I startedstaying in the community.
But I did pivot from purephysics to planetary science,
which does have more womenin it because of that.
- So now that is a spark lit in you.
That is a charge.
And I felt even justlooking at your materials,
the way that you take out a lot of jargon
(05:17):
so that folks can bepresent with the work.
It's how I learned about tertiary craters.
- Yeah.
- And I just, that wassuch a point of access.
And so for you,
was this a turning point in your career,
where you said, "Oh, I'vegotta do things differently,"
or had you been workingtowards that already?
- Absolutely.
So part of it was, you know,that really sparked in me,
I don't want this to happento other early career women.
(05:39):
Because if you lose gender minorities,
racial minorities, out of science,
you also lose the discoveriesthey would have made.
You know what I mean?
If I had decided to quit,
and I did think aboutquitting the physics major
because of this interaction.
And it was only becausemy TA pulled me aside,
he pulled me out of class and he was like,
"I heard you're thinkingabout switching majors.
You can't do that."
That I was like, okay,
(06:00):
I guess I'll stay in it a little longer.
And now I'm doing a PhD.
So I decided I neverwant what happened to me
to happen to other people.
And I think a big part ofscience is pulling others up
into the field.
And to do that, I need to excel.
So I made sure that Iwas in a place to excel
so that I can mentor othergender minorities into the field.
- So now here you are,you're in this field,
(06:20):
and you honestly,
I really did get lost in your research.
What you have accomplished, that you got,
well, they're not officially named,
but I wanna talk aboutWallace and Gromit and cheese.
- Yeah, absolutely.
- Okay,
so not just because they'regreat "Ampersand" characters,
and I love them and haveseen all of the things,
but do you, you were the first.
(06:42):
This is a new discovery that you have made
as you were transitioninginto coming into your PhD
about a tertiary crater on the moon,
that because of the way you math,
the way you think andthe patience you have,
and then, are you gonna get to name it?
- Yeah, so let's talk about that.
First of all, let's definewhat tertiary craters are.
(07:04):
- Okay, I'm gonna let you do that.
- Oh yeah, for sure.
When a big rock comes down from space,
or a big chunk of ice,and hits the ground,
it makes a hole.
That's called a primary crater.
That's the thing thatyou probably think about.
But when that happens, youthrow out a lot of ejecta,
a lot of ejected material,
which can reimpact the surface,
creating secondary craters.
- And it gets us confused about time.
(07:25):
- Yes, so this is useful,but also not useful.
It's not useful because thenumber of primary craters is
pretty much constant throughout time.
So if you go to a planetary surface
and you count the numberof primary craters on it,
you can figure out how old that surface is
without even going toit, which is super nice,
'cause it costs a lot of moneyto send people to planets.
- Yes.
- But it's also a problem
(07:45):
because if people can't distinguish
between secondary cratersand primary craters,
which can be similar sized,
if you have a large primary,you have large secondaries,
which can be as large as small primaries,
then you can severely overestimatethe age of that surface.
But secondary craters are really useful,
because they tell us some information
about what happened duringthat cratering impact.
(08:06):
So tertiary creators aresecondaries of secondaries.
So you have the primary, throwstuff out, make secondaries,
which throw stuff outand create tertiaries.
Now it's really difficult todistinguish between a tertiary
and a secondary crater.
And so that was a lot ofmy undergraduate thesis,
was figuring out how can we make sure,
follow these clues
that these aren't justvery small secondaries.
- And did this come to youbecause you were a moon gazer?
(08:29):
Because you love story?
Because you saw that thiswas a gap in research?
What were, how'd you get there?
- Yeah, so part of it wasbecause of my amazing mentor
at the Southwest ResearchInstitute, Kelsi Singer,
who I've been working with since, I think,
the summer after mysophomore year of undergrad.
And she's now a co-advisor on my PhD.
She had this idea thattertiaries might be a thing,
(08:50):
and she said, "Hello,undergrad, who I'm paying.
You get to sit down andmap all of these craters,
looking for tertiaries.- What a gift.
What, I mean, that's a huge gift.
- Yeah, it was great.
- That she had an idea and she said,
"I'm gonna trust you to figure this out."
And so then.
- And so then I mapped, I think,
about 6,000 secondary craters-
(09:11):
- How long did this take?
Because this sounds like-
- Oh, a while.
- Like, until your senior year?
- Yeah.
But I did do it while I was playing D&D,
'cause it's a pretty mindless thing,
once you've got it down.
So I was DMing on one screen
and mapping craters on the other one.
- You were not.
- I was, yeah.
And none of my players noticed.
So that's good.
- And the moon didn't know.
- No, no, of course not.
(09:32):
But yeah, so I found these tertiaries.
- Was this all online? This was COVID?
- Yes, this was during COVID.
The campaign that I DMhas been all online.
- Oh, really?
- Yeah. There's this unnamedprimary, which we call Wallace.
We're actually working onnaming it after Alan Hart,
who's a trans man and pioneerwho used X-ray screenings
in tuberculosis detection.
- Even cooler.
(09:52):
- Yeah, super awesome.
And then the secondarycrater, which we call Gromit,
originally I was calling them 1P8,
'cause it was 1.8 kilometers in diameter.
And then the secondary,I was calling 1P8A.
But, you know.
- Very Star Warsey,
but not as colorful as this world.
- And so I found these tertiaries,
and we think they're tertiaries,not small secondaries,
for a couple of reasons.
One, the size is right.
(10:12):
The largest secondaries tend to be
about 5% the size of their primary.
And these are about the right size.
- They're about 1.8.
- Well, 1.8 kilometers in diameter is
the size of the primary.
The tertiary craters are pretty small.
We're talking, like, thesize of a Volkswagen Beetle.
- Wow.
- Yeah.
- Wow, and you found that on the moon.
- Yeah.
(10:33):
- Also, you just were such a good teacher.
I don't feel like I amdissuaded from studying craters
even though I got the answer wrong.
It's so great.
Okay, I'm so happy that yougave me the Volkswagen Beetle.
That is an image.
- Yeah, for sure.
- And you could be doing thatwhile being a dungeon master.
- Yeah, absolutely.
(10:53):
- Okay, you're a dungeon master.
- Yes.
- And you are also an extrovert.
- Yes.
- And this extreme geologicaland planetary astrophysicist,
say all the words.
- Yeah, I am an astrophysicist.
I'm a planetary scientist.
My sister calls it astrogeophysics,
(11:17):
and then sometimes shethrows a bio in there.
But yeah,
planetary science is a veryinterdisciplinary field.
- Already, okay, so youare already used to doing
the interdisciplinary thing.
So you thought, why not justthrow my campaign in here?
- Absolutely.
- And create an entire new world
while looking at a rockout from our world.
How'd that go for you?
(11:37):
- Well, one thing thatwas really useful is
I took a few remote sensingclasses in undergrad.
And that was really neat,
because it taught me how touse a software called RGIS.
Super useful.
You can use it to map craters.
But also you can put your world maps
for your homebrew D&D campaign in it.
And this has been great for me,
because I have a littlesub-routine that I run
(11:58):
that tells me if they're trying to go
from this town to thistown along the roads,
how many days it will takeat various travel paces.
- You are taking this next level.
- Yeah, well that's the point as a DM.
- That's the point.
Okay, how did you become a DM,
and talk about women in STEM,
women as dungeon masters,
(12:18):
a thing, not a thing?
- Yeah, definitely a thing.
There's a lot of great female DMs.
And part of that is
because D&D is such aninclusive sort of hobby,
like, there's a lot of queer people,
there's a lot of gender people in D&D,
because it's such agreat exploratory space.
- I see this with my kid in the skins,
and he's always playing in femme skins.
(12:41):
- Yeah.
- And D&D kind of started this, right?
Because you get to change, your body is a,
it's more of a projectionof your internal self
than the body we mightactually wear in the world.
- Yeah, so I'm gender fluid,
so sometimes I feel like a boy.
And so, I kind ofexplored that through D&D.
I've only ever played male D&D characters.
- Did you think ofyourself as gender fluid
(13:02):
when you started exploring through D&D?
What kind of came first?
Or did they just guide one another?
- Yeah, so, you know,
I've always had inklingsthat I might be gender fluid,
but really being able toexplore using he/him pronouns
in a safe space with myfriends, super useful.
- Has there been workdone on this about D&D?
And I know that cosplay,
there's worlds wherewe've talked about this
(13:23):
in queer studies,
but I haven't heard about this in D&D
as a path towards remakingidentity and rehearsing
and playing-
- Oh yeah, absolutely.
I'm not sure if there havebeen any scientific studies.
I was reading an article
about how D&D can actually be used
to help with socialanxiety and depression,
(13:43):
which, you know, that, itmakes total sense to me,
but I'm not sure if there havebeen any sociological studies
about gender identity orsexual identity through D&D.
- Well, I think that's just,it's, what a gift of this form.
I remember,
it was generally folks whoidentified as males playing
when I was six, and allthe others were like,
on the side kind of being like,
(14:03):
"What are those magical dice?
I wanna play with it."
But didn't feel like we hadthe authority to step in.
And then, you know, I thinkin "Freaks and Geeks,"
it's like, all the dudes,
and then Daniel steps into be the dungeon master.
Have you seen "Freaks and Geeks?"
- I have not actually.
- Okay, okay, I didn't meanto give that away though.
- No, you're good.
- Okay, we could strikethat from the recording.
But I, so I alwaysthought of it as gendered.
- So hearing this fromyou is really exciting,
(14:25):
and of course it makes sense.
So did you start, you startedbuilding out characters
that helped to develop
or at least helped you play,
experiment with different pronouns,
different ways of showing up.
What were some of thecharacteristics of your?
- Yeah, so you guys can't see,
but I actually have two
of my Dungeons and Dragonsminiatures here with me
that I 3D printed.
- This is you tiny 3D printed?
(14:47):
- Yeah, these are two of my characters.
- Okay, this is amazing.
- So the one in yourleft hand is Milky Way.
I know, kind of on the nose.
His real name's Delmir of Arakel.
And this is the guy that I played
for my boyfriend's campaign,
which we just finished after1,557 days of real time.
I know, it's crazy.
I'm still feeling weird about it.
(15:07):
We just ended it last week.
- Oh, do you get lonely forthose and for the characters?
- Yeah, but you can always do one shots,
which are self-containedstories with those characters,
so we get to revisit them.
But Milky is a dragonborn,not like Skyrim.
He's like a humanoid dragon character.
- When you say not like Skyrim,we're pointing to the film?
- Skyrim the video game.
- Skyrim the video game.
Okay, thank you for educating.
(15:27):
Again, don't feelembarrassed, feel curious.
- And he is six foot,six, so I played very-
- So this tiny in my hand is a beefy
with a huge ass left-handed sword fighter?
- Yeah, yeah.- Yeah.
Tail. Scales.- Yep. Yep.
- Muscles.- Yeah.
- Funny, I bet, funny.
- Oh yeah, very funny.
- Super funny. Okay, great.
And now who's my other friend?
(15:48):
- So the other guy is Max,
which is actually my masculine name.
See, again-
- I know, I love it.
- Yeah.- So good.
- And Max is a tiefling, which is like,
sort of a devil person conquest paladin.
And tiefling are reallyinteresting in D&D,
because they're sort of like-
- Oh, I see the double tail.
- Yeah. Yeah.- Yeah.
- And the horns.- And the horns.
- They're super interesting
because they've kind ofbeen discriminated against
(16:10):
in the canon.
And so, gender minorities,
racial minorities, sexuality minorities,
they can all kind of projectthat sort of conflict
onto tieflings in the game.
- So they, like,
a tiefling is kind of likea representative body.
- Oh, yeah.- A representative outcast.
- Yeah, every queer person
that I know loves playing tieflings.
I'll say that.
- Okay, I'm with the tieflings then.
I am team tiefling,
(16:32):
and right-handed.
- Yes.
- Okay. Are you generally?
- I'm right-handed.
Yeah. Yeah.
- Okay, so that's, so,okay, so I'm loving this.
So you 3D printed these
because you know howto use that technology.
- Yeah, I have a 3Dprinter in my apartment.
- Yeah, me too.
And did you print thesewhen you were young,
and did they become kindof like the, you know,
(16:52):
the dashboard hula dancers of your life,
that, like, were youremblems to move forward
and to embrace all the things that-
- Yeah.
- that Mikayla and Max are?
- Yeah, so it's super interesting,
with Milky, you know, I was kind of,
you know, I was prettyyoung, I was an undergrad,
and so I was processinga lot of big feelings.
- So were you working
through all of your genderidentity things that early?
- Yeah, I was workingthrough gender identity stuff
(17:13):
in mainly high school.
Like, there were always inklings
when I was in elementary school,
and that sort of thing,
but high school is really when I was like,
oh, I think I might not be cisgender.
But yeah, so Milky, you know,
he deals with a lot of, you know,
social anxiety, a lot of depression.
And I worked through that overthe course of the campaign.
Max, on the other hand,is a huge narcissist.
(17:34):
So that was another thing thatI was kinda looking through.
And then the next character-
- Which means you're nota narcissist, my friend.
- Yeah, exactly.
- If you can, like, see it and say it
and put it in this incredible3D printer version,
and then step back andbe like, yeah, but ego.
- Right, exactly.
- Pride.- Yeah.
- Which is also good.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Yeah, but how do you hold these things,
especially when you'reambitious, as you clearly are?
(17:55):
- Exactly, and so that sort of,
the really interesting, you know,
mental things that you can workthrough through D&D as well.
And then the next characterthat I'm planning to play
in my boyfriend's next campaignis a plasmoid sorcerer.
A plasmoid is like asentient ooze or slime
that can take, like, humanoid shape.
- So you, like, (groans).
- Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah. They're super awesome.
(18:15):
- Does that mean you can fit in any, like,
you can fit in anywhere.
And then thinking about identity.
- Exactly.
- Okay, I'm feeling this now.
- Right, isn't it super cool?
- It's super cool.
It's a totally different versionthan my old understanding.
- Yeah.
- As, you know, I'm five foot, four.
When I try and pass insocial spaces as male,
I'm gonna not be great.
(18:36):
But I'm really trying to move away
from the really beefy,bulky dude stereotype.
- As your idea ofmasculine gender identity.
- Right, so I'm engaging
with a different type of masculinity
with this next character.
- Oh, I can't wait. Ithink this is incredible.
All right, can you, I wannasee your, you brought.
- Yes, I brought some cool dice.
- There's so many objects on this table.
This one has 20?
(18:58):
- 20 sides, yeah.- 20 sides, okay.
Oh, you could see that ifyou kept turning it Randall.
And there's this, like,sparkly world in it.
This is, like, the astrophysics of dice.
- Yeah, so these are dice that I got
to represent my plasmoid actually.
- Okay, so for our friends whocan't see what I'm holding,
it really is,
it's like holding a worldinside of a green glass die.
And it's 20 sided.
(19:18):
And you, this is the engine to campaigns.
- Absolutely.
- Okay, talk to me aboutthe, I'm gonna just,
when we think about how we move forward,
it's all chance in these worlds,
but in your world, in science,
it's nothing is left to chance.
- Well, you'd be surprised.
Statistics are a huge part of my research.
So in D&D, you basically roll the dice,
(19:41):
and then you add some modifiers,
depending on your character.
And then the DM sets what's called a DC.
And if you're above thatDC then you succeed.
If you're below that DC then you fail
at what you're trying to do.
In science, failure is a huge part of it.
In science, your firsthypothesis is never, ever,
ever going to be right.
And I talk about thisa lot with undergrads.
(20:03):
Because we're not taught that, you know?
We're taught that you needto succeed on the first try,
which is impossible.
- Yeah.
So failure is a goal,
'cause it teaches you something.
- Exactly, and so, you know,
when I give this talk to undergrads,
I say, like, "Here's myresume, very impressive,"
and then they're like, "Ohmy God, she's so impressive."
(20:24):
And then later on, I put up my resume,
and then in the nextcolumn, my failure resume.
So I say, yes, I got this,
but I had to apply to 30 internships
and get ghosted from 29 of them.
- Oh, I love this.
- You know what I mean?- Yeah.
And do you weave it with D&D
when you're talking to folks?
Is this something that's beenANDed for you for a while?
- Yeah, so I do talk about D&D a lot
(20:46):
with respect to science as well,
'cause, you know, Ioftentimes, for my world maps,
will just steal the maps of other planets
and then add some water to them.
And I'm like yeah, thisis my homebrew world.
It's definitely not Mars.
And I love though, butyou've gotta just add water.
- Yeah, exactly.
- 'Cause that's,
and which doesn't existevery place in the universe.
We're pretty lucky.
We should be nicer to our oceans.
(21:07):
- Yeah, absolutely.
- Okay, so in your homebrew.
- Yeah, so I weave D&D in that way.
But with respect to science, again,
there is a lot of statistics in it.
So for example,
the research that I'm doingnow with Dr. Dave Brain
at the laboratory foratmospheric and space physics is
a Monte Carlo simulation ofthe net effects of many impacts
on planetary atmosphere.
(21:28):
So let's break that down.
- Yeah, please.
But I, 'cause I can't get over Dr. Brain.
- Yeah, I know.
He can't get over it too.
He goes-- Does he get, like,
he's a bad guy?
- He just goes by Dave 'causehe thinks it's so funny.
- 'Cause it's so funny.
Yeah, okay. All right.
Now I'm over it.
Okay, now I can learn.
Thanks.
- Yeah. So, yeah.
So Monte Carlo, it isnamed after the casino.
(21:48):
- Okay.
- And that's because ithas to do with chance.
So what we're doing-
- The roll of the dice is a thing.
- Exactly.
Literally in my code,
there's pick a randomnumber between zero and one.
So what we're doing is we pick
from a size frequency distribution.
So out in space near earth,
there's a lot of very small rocks,
and not a large, very big rocks.
Which is great for us,
because we don't like gettinghit by very big rocks.
(22:10):
Goodbye, dinosaurs.
I know, now I'm hearing Aerosmith.
- Right.
- And those also have avelocity frequency distribution.
So some of 'em are pretty fast.
Some of 'em are pretty slow.
We're talking kilometers per second.
So, pretty slow is relative.
And so we randomly pick animpactor from that size frequency
and velocity frequency distribution.
And we throw it at a planet.
(22:31):
So Venus, Earth, or Mars iswhat I'm working on right now.
And then we see whathappens to the atmosphere.
So think about, like, my water bottle.
If I took an ice cubeand gently dropped it in,
I'd end up with morewater than when I started.
But if I took a huge snowballand really hucked it in there,
I'd probably splash out a bunch of water,
and might end up withless than when I started.
It's the same thing with impactorsand planetary atmosphere.
(22:52):
So if you have a very largedry impactor, like an asteroid,
and it hits the earth,
you're gonna splash outa bunch of atmosphere.
But if you take a bunchof really small wet comets
and "gently place them onthe surface," quote, unquote,
then you'll add atmosphere.
So the question is,some add, some subtract,
what about what happens whenyou throw a bunch of them?
(23:14):
Do you rehydrate a planet?
Do you completely getrid of the atmosphere?
Like, what's happening there?
And this is really useful aswe start to study exoplanets,
which are planets outsideof our solar system
in other solar systems.
And we say, okay, well,
we think we know this habitable zone,
which is where it's cold enough
that water doesn't evaporate too fast,
and it's, you know, warmenough that it's not frozen.
(23:37):
But what if that habitable zone changes
as the star goes through its lifespan?
You know, like, eventuallyEarth's gonna be uninhabitable
because the sun's gonna geta little bigger and engulf.
- This was such a happyepisode, and, okay.
- Yeah.
Well don't worry, we'llbe long gone by then.
Anyways, so what if we can rehydrate
(23:58):
previously desiccated planetsthrough impact bombardment?
That would be super useful.
And then we're totallyunderestimating the number
of habitable worlds there are out there.
Or what if you have too many impactors
that will totally desiccate a planet?
And then we're overestimating the number
of habitable worlds out there.
This is super useful information
for people who study exoplanets.
And so that's what I'mworking on right now.
(24:20):
- And this feeds your storytelling.
- Oh, yeah.
Well, a big part of sciencecommunication is storytelling.
You've noticed that I'veused a lot of metaphors,
and I use this all the timewhen I'm tutoring undergrads.
- Were you a theater kid?
- Okay, let's talk about this.
So I was a tech theater kid.
- I knew it. Were you a stage manager?
- I wasn't a stage manager.
I did lights. I did a little bit of-
(24:40):
- Backstage stuff though.
- I really, after absorbingyour essence, I was like,
I'm really getting a, like,
they're serving me stage manager.
- Yeah.
- But no, so lights, communication, okay.
- Yeah. Yeah.
So a big part of communicatingscience is storytelling.
So you've noticed I've usedmetaphors, that sort of thing.
And I do this all the timewhen I tutor undergrads.
And, like, a big part ofthe, here's an example.
(25:01):
So if you go outside andthe sun is too bright,
what do you do?
You put your hand up to block the sun,
or you cover your eyes.
That's direct imaging of exoplanets.
That's how we do direct imaging.
You cover up the lightcoming from the star
and then you can see thedimmer planet next to it.
- Did you have a humanwho first showed you
how to show up with science,
besides the person youwere mad at and said,
"No, I'm gonna take this forward"?
(25:22):
Was there someone elsemodeling this for you?
Or was this just kind of an innate way
that your brain has workedsince you were a tiny human?
- So, a couple of things.
One is I have had so manymentors that are so important.
I mentioned Patricia,
but also Mark Cher, David Armstrong,
Kelsey Singer, Ellen Stofan,former chief scientist of NASA,
Adam McKay, Dave Brain,I could go on and on.
(25:43):
There's so many peoplethat have helped me.
And that's something
that we don't know about science either,
'cause a lot of the timescience is, you know,
a brilliant man who'srejected by the masses,
goes into a room with a lab coat on,
and he comes out and everything's changed.
You know, that's a storywe tell about Feinman,
who was not a great guy, by the way.
That's what we tellabout Einstein, you know,
(26:04):
all these people, we say, you know,
Isaac Newton went alone into seclusion,
worked on their own, came out.
Everything's different.
- Yep, genius.
- Science doesn't work like that.
That's really glamorous andawesome for storytellers.
But that's not how science works.
Science is a group project.
You need people who will check your ideas,
who will check your math,
(26:24):
who will say, "Why don'twe do it this way?"
- And people that you willbe willing to fail with.
- Exactly, because failureis such an important part.
- And that's a hard chemistry.
I don't know if you feel thaton your, on the quest as well,
because some folks are failingor are not hitting the mark.
But what is the personality of failure.
What is that like and howdoes that change a team?
How does that change an idea?
(26:45):
'Cause folks sit differently with failure.
- Oh, absolutely.
And I mean, when I was younger,
I was totally academically anxious.
Not to say I'm not stillacademically anxious,
but a little less.
And, you know, if I got a B on a test,
I would be devastated.
- End of days.- Right.
- End of days.- Right.
And then, you know, inundergrad I realized, oh,
this is a pattern thathappens in my physics classes,
(27:06):
is I do really well on the first test,
I do not so great on the second test,
then I do well on the second,
on the third and the fourth.
- So you mapped it.
- Exactly.
I took data and drewconclusions from that data
and changed my behavior based off of it.
That's what science is.
And so really changing mymindset with respect to failure,
I think has helped me succeed so much.
Like, yeah, it really suckswhen you don't get that grant.
(27:28):
But science grants havelike, a 10% acceptance rate.
You're not gonna getevery grant you apply for.
And that means that you're a scientist,
you know what I mean?
- Yeah, failing means you're a scientist.
And can you see that chemistry
when you are on your campaigns,
if there are people who are, like,
the sore losers or who are the,
how do you, yeah, when they're,
or are when they,
when folks are in their characters,
are they in their better selves?
Are they in their better natures?
(27:50):
- Yeah, so characters aretypically completely different
from the actual person.
- Okay, 'cause I really want one.
- Yeah, yeah, we'll build you one.
- Okay, 'cause I think of it as a body
that sits outside thatrepresents my inner,
or is it, no,
it's can be like a total counterpoint.
- Yeah, so normally what I dowhen I'm building characters,
and as a DM, you'replaying every character
that the players aren't playing.
So you walk into a bar,
(28:11):
I'm the barkeeper and allof the people in the bar.
You walk outside, I'mthe guard who stops you.
Like, I am everyone in theworld who isn't you, basically.
And so coming up with NPCs,
non playable characters, on the fly,
you typically just take apart of your personality
and amp it up to 10.
- Wow.
- Yeah, and so with player characters,
you wanna take a fewcomponents of your personality,
(28:32):
so you're really drawing from something,
and change those in a way.
Like, my relationship withmasculinity has changed
through my D&D characters,
and my relationship withmy gender has changed,
and my relationship with, you know,
anxiety and depression
and all that sort of thing has changed
through my D&D characters.
And so you can, it'sreally, like, therapy,
where you're pretending to be a goblin.
(28:53):
- Yeah, I just can't, this isso gorgeous to me as a way,
especially when it seemslike anxiety's up in our kids
and notions of gender fluidity,
they're up because there's room.
But there's not alwaysspace to work 'em out.
So D&D as a curriculardevice for humaning.
(29:15):
- Absolutely, that is areally good way of putting it.
Yeah, D&D is a fantastic safe space.
And as a DM, part of that isto cultivate that safe space.
And a really important part
of that is a session zero, which is-
- What's a session zero?
- Yeah, so that's where you sit down
and you make a socialcontract with your players.
So I have a session zerodocument that's like, you know,
maybe seven pages, single spaced.
- Do you start all yourmeetings like this at work too?
(29:36):
'Cause this sounds like perfect agreements
to go into a project that's gonna fail.
- Yeah. Yeah.
So when I'm mentoring undergradsand that sort of thing,
I kind of talk about, like,here's my goals for you,
let's talk about whatyour goals are for you,
before we start the mentoring.
- Is that a session zero?
- Yeah, and so in mysession zero document,
I talk about, like, here'show I'm gonna do level ups.
Like, here's how I'm gonna distribute XP.
But also here are some touchy things
(29:58):
that we might talk about in the campaign.
Let's have a system for, ifyou get triggered, you can say,
"Hey, this is a line.
I don't wanna talk about this," or,
"I want this to be a veil,let's fade to black,"
or, "Can we rewind ascene and not do this?"
And that is very important
for building a safe andcomfortable space for your players.
- That sounds so much likewhat we do in a theater world
when we're doing theater intimacy,
(30:19):
and how far can we go,
because we're going off the text so often
to get to the character,
which then imbues the textwith new ideas and newness.
But we've been thinking about this a lot
in faculty meetings and in team meetings,
how, when, especially in spaces
where we're trying to do anti-racist work
and we're gonna bump up against things,
when we're trying to do decolonizing work
(30:41):
and we're gonna hit our stories,
how do we get safe with it?
And to veil, to rewind,
all of this is, like,
actually really incredibleprimers to human.
- Yeah. Yeah.
- You should take this to your department.
- Oh, that would be interesting.
I'll sit down and belike, we need to play D&D.
No, I swear it's for science.
(31:01):
- But it does make methink about, you know,
when we're, like,
bringing students or bringingnew folks into spaces,
how do we do this better?
And D&D.
Okay, I want a character.
- Okay, fantastic.
- Can I have a character?- Yeah.
- Really, we could do it right now?
- Yeah, so-
- Do we need a session zero first,
or do we feel like we're in good?
- Well, we'd have toplay a campaign for that.
- Oh, okay.
(31:21):
So we can do a character without that.
- Yes.
So, you know,
normally building a charactertakes maybe like three hours,
but we're gonna do the fast version.
So open-
- We like a quick and dirty.
- Yeah, I'm cracking openmy player's handbook.
- I've seen this, this player's handbook.
My nephew gave my kiddo one of these.
- They're fantastic. This is the best.
Okay, so the first stepis to choose a species.
(31:43):
And there's lots of different species,
but I'm just gonna hand this book to you,
and you're gonna pick onethat you think sounds good.
Just flip through those.
So right now, Erika islooking at dwarves, elves.
- And I can just keep going with you.
- Yeah, keep going.
- Ooh, I'm like already, elf.
- Yeah, elves.- Yeah.
- You wanna do an elf?
- Oh yeah.- Okay.
So then there's woodelves, there's high elves,
and you could be a half elf.
(32:04):
- I'm interested in the half elf.
- Half elves are half elves, half human.
- Okay, cool. Great.
- Let's do half elf.
- Okay, we'll do half elf.
- Okay, so in that case,
I already think I have an idea
of what you're goingto choose for a class,
but let's just, you know, take a-
- I've given too much away.
- So next you're gonna choose a class.
And you can kind ofskim through that table.
(32:25):
- I'm just gonna go really fast.
- So different types ofclasses include, like,
barbarian, cleric, fighter.
- It's so funny, I had adream about church last night,
which is, like, making me look at cleric,
but that's not what I want.
Oh, but I'm paladin.
- Paladins are super neat.I've played paladins.
Yeah, okay.
So you-
- What did you think Iwas gonna say, rogue?
- I thought you were gonna say bard.
- Bard, oh.
(32:46):
Oh, yeah.
I love that, except for Ican't sing for any anything.
And I tried to playguitar once, and uh-uh.
- Well, that's the great thing about D&D-
- That I could play.- Maybe you could.
- Oh, see, I see what's happening.
- Yeah.
- Okay, but I'm stillgonna stick with paladin
because of my dream.
Okay, but I've always wantedto play the accordion, so.
All right, we'll work it in next time.
- Okay, so you're gonnaplay a half elf paladin,
(33:09):
and then you wouldchoose a character name,
which is really tough,
but if you have any offthe top of your head,
you can give 'em to me,
or I have a list that Ishould be able to give you.
- It's so funny.
Okay, so one of my favorite humans
and favorite ANDers is Michelle Ellsworth.
And her name Ellsworth justcame to mind because of the elf.
And then I was like, ohmy God, that's hilarious.
(33:30):
I'm making an Ellsworthian character.
So we'll be Elfsworth.
- Elfsworth, okay. Fantastic.
Okay, so you are a half elf paladin.
There's D&D is typically polytheistic.
And the gods are veryinvolved in normal things.
So like, you can be walking along,
and like, try and rob adude, psych, it's a God.
(33:53):
And then they're coming for you.
- Okay, this is also greatmoral compass that you don't,
you never know.
- Yeah.
Well that's a big thing,is there are these,
there's a certain type ofplayers called murder hobos,
which are just like, I wannaplay this like a video game,
I wanna run around and killpeople and steal things.
And that's a good thing toweed out at session zero.
- Okay, yeah. No murder hobos.
- Yeah.
(34:13):
- Okay, this, that,
we need that shirt for thepodcast that's on the back,
just in quotes, "no murder hobos."
- Yeah, so there are alot of different, like,
God versions and that sort of thing,
but why don't you just pick one from that?
- And this is gonna bekind of my most ruling God,
who is my, a guiding troublemaker.
- Who gives you your magic.
They're the source of your magic.
(34:33):
- Oh, okay. This is, okay.
Oh, oh, I love the goddess of pain.
Loviatar, is that how we say her name?
- Let's see.
- Okay, here, so I'm thinking,
because pain is, yeah, that'ssome serious source material.
- Awesome, okay.
(34:55):
All right.
Okay, now I'm just gonna doa little narration for you.
This is off the dome.
Okay, Elfsworth steps outof the small tree house
that she's lived in forthe past several decades.
Half elves live a littlebit longer than humans,
but not as long as elves,
which Elfsworth thinks about periodically.
(35:16):
She's really been thinkinglately about what she wants to do
with her life.
She's been, you know,working for Loviatar,
trying to process people'schronic pain for a while now,
but she's feeling kindof stagnant in her life.
And so as she steps out of her tree house,
her long flowing darkrobes swishing about her,
kind of muted by the dark plate armor
(35:39):
that she wears on her top half,
she sheaths her sword on her back
and steps out into the street.
As she walks,
she says hello to severalof the other half elves
that live in her commune,also priests of Loviatar.
She walks down to themain community board,
and she reads some of thejobs that are available.
(36:00):
She comes across one,
"Meet at the tavern at 8:00 PM.
I'm talking to you, Elfsworth."
That's what it says in the text.
- It has my name right there.
- Exactly.
And she thinks,
maybe this will be thestart of something great.
So, there you go. That's a scene.
- Yes, I am so in.
- Yeah.
(36:20):
- Okay, I love this. I'm so in.
Okay, this could start a, Ido not have time for this,
but I want it.
- Yeah.
- This is a huge buildof time in your world.
How are you holding all of this science,
all of this educating,
all of this imagination in your human,
what did you say, fivefoot, four body self?
(36:42):
How are you holding all of this?
- Yeah, so, you know,
I was talking aboutmetacognition a while ago,
and thought it would be a useful exercise
to kind of talk aboutwhat my brain looks like.
And so I can tell you about that
if you think that would be useful.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, okay, so-
- Are we mapping it onto one of those?
- That would be funny.
Yeah, so in my brain,
I typically have a coupledifferent narrators.
(37:04):
Like, some people havenarrators that talk.
And I typically have, like,two or three running at a time.
- In dialogue or just?
- Yeah, typically workingon different problems
or stuff like that.
But then I also have whatI call, like, the computer,
which doesn't use words.
So that's actually a fasterprocessor for me is to think in,
like, equations and images.
So instead of thinking like, oh,
(37:24):
Mason, my boyfriend, is latecoming back from his run,
I think, like, an image ofMason, an image of running,
and then an image of a clock.
And so that's a lot fasterfor me than processing words.
And this is somethingthat's super interesting
about reading, actually,
is we are limited in how fast we can read
by how fast our human braincan pronounce English.
And so actually removingthat sort of processing
(37:45):
can help you read faster,which is super neat.
- So is that how youcould also be multitasking
with being a dungeon master and-
- Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
So I have one narratorworking on all the D&D stuff,
and then one working on the science.
And then I have, so the computer is, like,
actually what my processing is,
and then that gets translatedinto words by my narrators.
And so when I'm not talking to people,
(38:06):
I oftentimes turn off my narrators,
and I'm thinking only in, like,
images and that sort of thing.
- And you do that consciously?
- You know, it's pretty natural.
But that was what sort ofmade me good at languages
when I was in high school.
Don't ask me to speak Spanish.
I don't remember that much of it.
But back then I was pretty good at it,
because I was already translatingin my head into English.
(38:26):
- And so that translationis also what you're doing
with the science and the language,
and the taking out of jargon,
that cutting through.
And so that translation is a natural part-
- Yeah, exactly, exactly,
and a very important partof communicating science.
And then the last dudethat's kind of in my brain is
I call him, like, the primalthing behind the curtain.
And it's like, a gut instinct.
(38:46):
You probably have thisin your day-to-day life.
And that happens for me with science too.
When I'm reading a science,like a question on a test,
I'm like, this is what the answer is.
But then I never really trust that,
and I wait for my processor to catch up
and my narrators catch up.
And then I'm like, okay,yeah, now I trust that.
- And the trust that has to come forward,
especially with so much failing.
(39:07):
- Learning to trust myself
and that gut instinct is something
that I'm still working through.
- And to work, that gutis really important,
because it sparks for you,not only I know the answer,
but new questions.
- Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- Which are critical in theway that you're studying.
- Absolutely.
- Science is all about asking questions.
(39:27):
- New questions, newquestions, new questions.
So, oh, this means we'regetting close to the end,
which I hate, 'cause I'm reallyhappy to know you, Mikayla.
So for the quick and dirty,which is our speed round,
we'll do something a little different
where you choose whichquestion comes first.
You're gonna roll a six-sided die.
- Okay. Fantastic.
- And then it's gonna let me know
what question I'm gonna ask you.
- Okay.
- Okay, go.
(39:48):
(die thudding)
- Five.
- Okay, it's a five.
Okay, two bands you listen towhile creating your campaigns.
- Oh, okay, VampireWeekend and Fleet Foxes.
- Yes.- Yeah.
- Excellent. Okay, next.
Go, roll.
(die thudding)
- Six.
- Okay.
When we talked aboutWallace and Gromit earlier,
and the naming,
what's another pair ofthings human, non-human,
(40:12):
that you love together?
- Oh, okay. That's a good question.
I probably say reptiles and mammals.
- You have a bearded dragon.
- I have a beardeddragon and a ball python.
But also, you know, theinterplay between, you know,
and this would,
we'll get too much deep into it
if I think about it too much,
but thinking about howhumans are reptiles,
and thinking about howmammals have evolved
(40:33):
from that is really interesting.
- It's really interesting. I love that.
And I love that you have them.
You're so good
at creating the physicalrepresentation of your minds.
Okay, roll again.
- All right.
(die thudding)
That's a five, so I'm gonna re-roll.
That's a six, so I'm gonna re-roll.
That's two.
- Okay, two.
The two objects you wouldalways take with you
on a D&D quest,
although it might be differentdepending on your character.
(40:53):
- Yeah, it definitely would be different,
depending on my character.
Yeah, exactly.
So for Milky, he definitelyhas his great sword,
and he always carries with him three socks
in case he loses one.
And then Max also has a great sword,
but he would always bring his dog,
who's this huge, like,horse-sized Mastiff named Echo.
And he would probablybring his plate armor,
(41:15):
'cause that's very important to him.
Kai, who's my plasmoid, wouldalways bring his magic wand,
because otherwise he can't use magic.
And he has a purple handkerchief
with the name of theartificer that created him
that he carries with him.
- Okay. Amazing.
I was writing about ahandkerchief this morning.
We're totally in pocket.
Okay, roll again.
- Okay.
(die thudding)
- Two. One.
(41:35):
- Okay, your favorite cheese pairings.
- Cheese. Okay.
So cheese and I have a verycomplicated relationship.
I used to really not like cheese,
but I'm growing into it.
And I would say
that my favorite cheese isPirate Booty from Trader Joe's.
- And.
- And I normally pair that with kombucha,
(41:55):
specifically Pink Lady Apple Kombucha.
Most excellent.
- We have one more.
Let's see.
(die thudding)
Four.
- Nailed it.- Awesome.
- Okay.
If there was a D&D dating app,
which Tim and I think is a brilliant idea,
what characters are the most compatible?
- Ooh, okay.
That's super interesting.
(42:15):
So when building a party,
you typically want a caster, a rogue,
who's like a sneaky guy,
a tank, who's someonewho can get up in combat
and take a lot of hits,
and a cleric or a healer.
So you'd probably need somesort of poly relationship
between these four.
- Such good ending.
Am I cleric in my?
- You're a paladin.
- I'm a paladin, that's right.
- Which is a half caster.
(42:36):
So you can heal and you cantank and you can cast magic.
- Oh, I like that I can tank.
And I like tank as a verb.
Okay, I'm so feeling that.
If you, then our final question
that we like to have folksgive their offering to,
and because you probablyeither have or will do this,
give a speech for graduation,
or a send off to a quest,
(42:56):
a blessing that starts with "and."
What would yours be?
- Okay.
(uplifting music)
And the next time that it's dark outside,
I urge you to gatherthe people that you love
and lay above the great abyss of the sky,
held to Earth by just thethin tether of gravity,
and look at the moon,
(43:17):
and remember that we putpeople together there.
So even when your problems feel small
in comparison to the cosmos,
you can remember thatwhen we work together,
we can do really big things.
(uplifting music continues)
- That was Mikayla Huffman,
who is pursuing a PhD in CU Boulder's
Astrophysical and PlanetarySciences department.
(43:37):
To learn more aboutMikayla's incredible work,
see our show notes.
"The Ampersand" is a production
of the College of Arts and Sciences
at the University of Colorado Boulder.
It is written and produced by me,
Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
If there are people you'dlike us to interview
on "The Ampersand,"
do please email us at asinfo@colorado.edu.
(44:00):
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker,
and the episodes are recorded
at Interplay Recordingin Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall, andthis is "The Ampersand."
(uplifting music)
(typewriter clicking)
- A and S.
(typewriter clicking)
Hey ANDers.
This week we're doing something different
to kick off our episode.
Our guest, Mikayla Huffman,is pursuing her PhD
in astrophysical and planetaryscience at CU Boulder.
A piece of her alchemy is
(00:21):
guiding Dungeons and Dragonscampaigns as a dungeon master.
So, instead of takingyou all into my brain,
here's Mikayla leading us on ajourney into her imagination.
(uplifting music)
I can imagine MikaylaHuffman, clad in plate armor,
swinging a great sword as tall as she is.
(00:41):
The battlefield around you smokes,
the acrid vapors rising
from the glowing pools oflava hidden among the basalt.
Squinting through the haze,you can make out your enemy,
a hoard of pink brainsskittering around the rocks
on taloned legs.
She turns to you,
her short brown hair slickedto her forehead with sweat.
"Get out of here, I got this," she yells.
(01:03):
You see a tendril emergefrom the nearest brain
as it leaps towards you.
It makes contact.
And in a bright flash oflight, the scene disappears.
You come to in an empty white space,
blank as far as the eye can see.
Slowly a shape begins toemerge out of the mist.
Mikayla, clad in a t-shirt and jeans,
(01:24):
steps from the swirling fog.
(record scratching)
Whoops, looks like you got sucked in.
Welcome to my brain, I guess.
Let me show you around.
Doors appear.
She leads you past them.
They have labels
like numErikal simulationsof impacts onto icy bodies,
bad character voices, ball python facts.
She stops in front of aninnocuous looking door.
(01:45):
The label simply reads "The Universe."
"This is the mostimportant one," she says.
"It's where all of ourjourneys begin and end.
It's what holds us together."
She cracks open the door.
Let's go.
I can't imagine MikaylaHuffman not asking questions.
(02:06):
If anyone was born to be ascientist, it would be her.
But what good is curiosity
if it doesn't bring people together?
Through her science,
she studies the connections and rules
that govern the cosmos.
Through her outreach andDungeons and Dragons campaigns,
she studies the connectionsbetween human beings,
and how we can betterunderstand each other.
(02:27):
(uplifting music)
On "The Ampersand,"
we call this bringingtogether of the impossible
the alchemy of ANDing.
Together, we'll hear stories
of humans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunction junction kinda way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
(02:50):
a way to speak the beautiful
when you intentionally let the soft animal
of your body love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks,
"What is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?"
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating and collaborating,
it reminds me to replace a singular idea
of what I think I should become
(03:10):
with a full sensoryverb about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall,
and this is MikaylaHuffman on "The Ampersand."
(electronic music)
- I had a pretty roughexperience the summer
after my freshman year of undergrad,
(03:33):
where I applied for a physics internship.
I had good grades, soI got a phone interview
with unnamed chief engineerat large corporation.
He, like, got on the phone,
and was asking me all thesequestions about physics history.
And I hadn't taken aphysics history class yet.
And his tone, like, changed immediately
(03:54):
when I said I went toa liberal arts college.
He was like, "Have you takenmulti-variable calculus yet?
Have you taken quantum mechanic?"
- Checklist came out.
- Yeah, and I'm like, I'm a freshman.
And then he started saying, like,
"Are you sure you evenwanna be a scientist?
Like, do you know
that atoms are made ofprotons and neutrons?
Do you know what an electric field is?"
Like, totally dismissive.
And for a really long time, I was like,
(04:14):
oh my God, I'm not goodenough to be a scientist,
'cause this guy-
- You took it as a critique of you?
- Yeah, yeah.
Because I didn't know thatthat was complete nonsense
that he was saying.
Oh, and then he was like,
"I'm not gonna give you the job,
but you can come and meetthe person I do give it to.
And so I came and met the guy,and it was a 14 year old boy.
- Hold the phone.
- I know.
(04:34):
- I'm not gonna give you the job, but-
- Yep.
I know, I know.
Totally nuts.
But because I was, you know,
a young impressionable, like, undergrad,
I was like, oh man, Iam not cut out for this.
And it was only when Italked to female mentors
in the field,
I had a great pre-majoradvisor, Patricia Valley,
and she was like, "Whywould he say that to you?"
(04:56):
And I was like, "Yeah, whywould he say that to me?"
That's nonsense.
And that's when I startedstaying in the community.
But I did pivot from purephysics to planetary science,
which does have more womenin it because of that.
- So now that is a spark lit in you.
That is a charge.
And I felt even justlooking at your materials,
the way that you take out a lot of jargon
(05:17):
so that folks can bepresent with the work.
It's how I learned about tertiary craters.
- Yeah.
- And I just, that wassuch a point of access.
And so for you,
was this a turning point in your career,
where you said, "Oh, I'vegotta do things differently,"
or had you been workingtowards that already?
- Absolutely.
So part of it was, you know,that really sparked in me,
I don't want this to happento other early career women.
(05:39):
Because if you lose gender minorities,
racial minorities, out of science,
you also lose the discoveriesthey would have made.
You know what I mean?
If I had decided to quit,
and I did think aboutquitting the physics major
because of this interaction.
And it was only becausemy TA pulled me aside,
he pulled me out of class and he was like,
"I heard you're thinkingabout switching majors.
You can't do that."
That I was like, okay,
(06:00):
I guess I'll stay in it a little longer.
And now I'm doing a PhD.
So I decided I neverwant what happened to me
to happen to other people.
And I think a big part ofscience is pulling others up
into the field.
And to do that, I need to excel.
So I made sure that Iwas in a place to excel
so that I can mentor othergender minorities into the field.
- So now here you are,you're in this field,
(06:20):
and you honestly,
I really did get lost in your research.
What you have accomplished, that you got,
well, they're not officially named,
but I wanna talk aboutWallace and Gromit and cheese.
- Yeah, absolutely.
- Okay,
so not just because they'regreat "Ampersand" characters,
and I love them and haveseen all of the things,
but do you, you were the first.
(06:42):
This is a new discovery that you have made
as you were transitioninginto coming into your PhD
about a tertiary crater on the moon,
that because of the way you math,
the way you think andthe patience you have,
and then, are you gonna get to name it?
- Yeah, so let's talk about that.
First of all, let's definewhat tertiary craters are.
(07:04):
- Okay, I'm gonna let you do that.
- Oh yeah, for sure.
When a big rock comes down from space,
or a big chunk of ice,and hits the ground,
it makes a hole.
That's called a primary crater.
That's the thing thatyou probably think about.
But when that happens, youthrow out a lot of ejecta,
a lot of ejected material,
which can reimpact the surface,
creating secondary craters.
- And it gets us confused about time.
(07:25):
- Yes, so this is useful,but also not useful.
It's not useful because thenumber of primary craters is
pretty much constant throughout time.
So if you go to a planetary surface
and you count the numberof primary craters on it,
you can figure out how old that surface is
without even going toit, which is super nice,
'cause it costs a lot of moneyto send people to planets.
- Yes.
- But it's also a problem
(07:45):
because if people can't distinguish
between secondary cratersand primary craters,
which can be similar sized,
if you have a large primary,you have large secondaries,
which can be as large as small primaries,
then you can severely overestimatethe age of that surface.
But secondary craters are really useful,
because they tell us some information
about what happened duringthat cratering impact.
(08:06):
So tertiary creators aresecondaries of secondaries.
So you have the primary, throwstuff out, make secondaries,
which throw stuff outand create tertiaries.
Now it's really difficult todistinguish between a tertiary
and a secondary crater.
And so that was a lot ofmy undergraduate thesis,
was figuring out how can we make sure,
follow these clues
that these aren't justvery small secondaries.
- And did this come to youbecause you were a moon gazer?
(08:29):
Because you love story?
Because you saw that thiswas a gap in research?
What were, how'd you get there?
- Yeah, so part of it wasbecause of my amazing mentor
at the Southwest ResearchInstitute, Kelsi Singer,
who I've been working with since, I think,
the summer after mysophomore year of undergrad.
And she's now a co-advisor on my PhD.
She had this idea thattertiaries might be a thing,
(08:50):
and she said, "Hello,undergrad, who I'm paying.
You get to sit down andmap all of these craters,
looking for tertiaries.- What a gift.
What, I mean, that's a huge gift.
- Yeah, it was great.
- That she had an idea and she said,
"I'm gonna trust you to figure this out."
And so then.
- And so then I mapped, I think,
about 6,000 secondary craters-
(09:11):
- How long did this take?
Because this sounds like-
- Oh, a while.
- Like, until your senior year?
- Yeah.
But I did do it while I was playing D&D,
'cause it's a pretty mindless thing,
once you've got it down.
So I was DMing on one screen
and mapping craters on the other one.
- You were not.
- I was, yeah.
And none of my players noticed.
So that's good.
- And the moon didn't know.
- No, no, of course not.
(09:32):
But yeah, so I found these tertiaries.
- Was this all online? This was COVID?
- Yes, this was during COVID.
The campaign that I DMhas been all online.
- Oh, really?
- Yeah. There's this unnamedprimary, which we call Wallace.
We're actually working onnaming it after Alan Hart,
who's a trans man and pioneerwho used X-ray screenings
in tuberculosis detection.
- Even cooler.
(09:52):
- Yeah, super awesome.
And then the secondarycrater, which we call Gromit,
originally I was calling them 1P8,
'cause it was 1.8 kilometers in diameter.
And then the secondary,I was calling 1P8A.
But, you know.
- Very Star Warsey,
but not as colorful as this world.
- And so I found these tertiaries,
and we think they're tertiaries,not small secondaries,
for a couple of reasons.
One, the size is right.
(10:12):
The largest secondaries tend to be
about 5% the size of their primary.
And these are about the right size.
- They're about 1.8.
- Well, 1.8 kilometers in diameter is
the size of the primary.
The tertiary craters are pretty small.
We're talking, like, thesize of a Volkswagen Beetle.
- Wow.
- Yeah.
- Wow, and you found that on the moon.
- Yeah.
(10:33):
- Also, you just were such a good teacher.
I don't feel like I amdissuaded from studying craters
even though I got the answer wrong.
It's so great.
Okay, I'm so happy that yougave me the Volkswagen Beetle.
That is an image.
- Yeah, for sure.
- And you could be doing thatwhile being a dungeon master.
- Yeah, absolutely.
(10:53):
- Okay, you're a dungeon master.
- Yes.
- And you are also an extrovert.
- Yes.
- And this extreme geologicaland planetary astrophysicist,
say all the words.
- Yeah, I am an astrophysicist.
I'm a planetary scientist.
My sister calls it astrogeophysics,
(11:17):
and then sometimes shethrows a bio in there.
But yeah,
planetary science is a veryinterdisciplinary field.
- Already, okay, so youare already used to doing
the interdisciplinary thing.
So you thought, why not justthrow my campaign in here?
- Absolutely.
- And create an entire new world
while looking at a rockout from our world.
How'd that go for you?
(11:37):
- Well, one thing thatwas really useful is
I took a few remote sensingclasses in undergrad.
And that was really neat,
because it taught me how touse a software called RGIS.
Super useful.
You can use it to map craters.
But also you can put your world maps
for your homebrew D&D campaign in it.
And this has been great for me,
because I have a littlesub-routine that I run
(11:58):
that tells me if they're trying to go
from this town to thistown along the roads,
how many days it will takeat various travel paces.
- You are taking this next level.
- Yeah, well that's the point as a DM.
- That's the point.
Okay, how did you become a DM,
and talk about women in STEM,
women as dungeon masters,
(12:18):
a thing, not a thing?
- Yeah, definitely a thing.
There's a lot of great female DMs.
And part of that is
because D&D is such aninclusive sort of hobby,
like, there's a lot of queer people,
there's a lot of gender people in D&D,
because it's such agreat exploratory space.
- I see this with my kid in the skins,
and he's always playing in femme skins.
(12:41):
- Yeah.
- And D&D kind of started this, right?
Because you get to change, your body is a,
it's more of a projectionof your internal self
than the body we mightactually wear in the world.
- Yeah, so I'm gender fluid,
so sometimes I feel like a boy.
And so, I kind ofexplored that through D&D.
I've only ever played male D&D characters.
- Did you think ofyourself as gender fluid
(13:02):
when you started exploring through D&D?
What kind of came first?
Or did they just guide one another?
- Yeah, so, you know,
I've always had inklingsthat I might be gender fluid,
but really being able toexplore using he/him pronouns
in a safe space with myfriends, super useful.
- Has there been workdone on this about D&D?
And I know that cosplay,
there's worlds wherewe've talked about this
(13:23):
in queer studies,
but I haven't heard about this in D&D
as a path towards remakingidentity and rehearsing
and playing-
- Oh yeah, absolutely.
I'm not sure if there havebeen any scientific studies.
I was reading an article
about how D&D can actually be used
to help with socialanxiety and depression,
(13:43):
which, you know, that, itmakes total sense to me,
but I'm not sure if there havebeen any sociological studies
about gender identity orsexual identity through D&D.
- Well, I think that's just,it's, what a gift of this form.
I remember,
it was generally folks whoidentified as males playing
when I was six, and allthe others were like,
on the side kind of being like,
(14:03):
"What are those magical dice?
I wanna play with it."
But didn't feel like we hadthe authority to step in.
And then, you know, I thinkin "Freaks and Geeks,"
it's like, all the dudes,
and then Daniel steps into be the dungeon master.
Have you seen "Freaks and Geeks?"
- I have not actually.
- Okay, okay, I didn't meanto give that away though.
- No, you're good.
- Okay, we could strikethat from the recording.
But I, so I alwaysthought of it as gendered.
- So hearing this fromyou is really exciting,
(14:25):
and of course it makes sense.
So did you start, you startedbuilding out characters
that helped to develop
or at least helped you play,
experiment with different pronouns,
different ways of showing up.
What were some of thecharacteristics of your?
- Yeah, so you guys can't see,
but I actually have two
of my Dungeons and Dragonsminiatures here with me
that I 3D printed.
- This is you tiny 3D printed?
(14:47):
- Yeah, these are two of my characters.
- Okay, this is amazing.
- So the one in yourleft hand is Milky Way.
I know, kind of on the nose.
His real name's Delmir of Arakel.
And this is the guy that I played
for my boyfriend's campaign,
which we just finished after1,557 days of real time.
I know, it's crazy.
I'm still feeling weird about it.
(15:07):
We just ended it last week.
- Oh, do you get lonely forthose and for the characters?
- Yeah, but you can always do one shots,
which are self-containedstories with those characters,
so we get to revisit them.
But Milky is a dragonborn,not like Skyrim.
He's like a humanoid dragon character.
- When you say not like Skyrim,we're pointing to the film?
- Skyrim the video game.
- Skyrim the video game.
Okay, thank you for educating.
(15:27):
Again, don't feelembarrassed, feel curious.
- And he is six foot,six, so I played very-
- So this tiny in my hand is a beefy
with a huge ass left-handed sword fighter?
- Yeah, yeah.- Yeah.
Tail. Scales.- Yep. Yep.
- Muscles.- Yeah.
- Funny, I bet, funny.
- Oh yeah, very funny.
- Super funny. Okay, great.
And now who's my other friend?
(15:48):
- So the other guy is Max,
which is actually my masculine name.
See, again-
- I know, I love it.
- Yeah.- So good.
- And Max is a tiefling, which is like,
sort of a devil person conquest paladin.
And tiefling are reallyinteresting in D&D,
because they're sort of like-
- Oh, I see the double tail.
- Yeah. Yeah.- Yeah.
- And the horns.- And the horns.
- They're super interesting
because they've kind ofbeen discriminated against
(16:10):
in the canon.
And so, gender minorities,
racial minorities, sexuality minorities,
they can all kind of projectthat sort of conflict
onto tieflings in the game.
- So they, like,
a tiefling is kind of likea representative body.
- Oh, yeah.- A representative outcast.
- Yeah, every queer person
that I know loves playing tieflings.
I'll say that.
- Okay, I'm with the tieflings then.
I am team tiefling,
(16:32):
and right-handed.
- Yes.
- Okay. Are you generally?
- I'm right-handed.
Yeah. Yeah.
- Okay, so that's, so,okay, so I'm loving this.
So you 3D printed these
because you know howto use that technology.
- Yeah, I have a 3Dprinter in my apartment.
- Yeah, me too.
And did you print thesewhen you were young,
and did they become kindof like the, you know,
(16:52):
the dashboard hula dancers of your life,
that, like, were youremblems to move forward
and to embrace all the things that-
- Yeah.
- that Mikayla and Max are?
- Yeah, so it's super interesting,
with Milky, you know, I was kind of,
you know, I was prettyyoung, I was an undergrad,
and so I was processinga lot of big feelings.
- So were you working
through all of your genderidentity things that early?
- Yeah, I was workingthrough gender identity stuff
(17:13):
in mainly high school.
Like, there were always inklings
when I was in elementary school,
and that sort of thing,
but high school is really when I was like,
oh, I think I might not be cisgender.
But yeah, so Milky, you know,
he deals with a lot of, you know,
social anxiety, a lot of depression.
And I worked through that overthe course of the campaign.
Max, on the other hand,is a huge narcissist.
(17:34):
So that was another thing thatI was kinda looking through.
And then the next character-
- Which means you're nota narcissist, my friend.
- Yeah, exactly.
- If you can, like, see it and say it
and put it in this incredible3D printer version,
and then step back andbe like, yeah, but ego.
- Right, exactly.
- Pride.- Yeah.
- Which is also good.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Yeah, but how do you hold these things,
especially when you'reambitious, as you clearly are?
(17:55):
- Exactly, and so that sort of,
the really interesting, you know,
mental things that you can workthrough through D&D as well.
And then the next characterthat I'm planning to play
in my boyfriend's next campaignis a plasmoid sorcerer.
A plasmoid is like asentient ooze or slime
that can take, like, humanoid shape.
- So you, like, (groans).
- Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah. They're super awesome.
(18:15):
- Does that mean you can fit in any, like,
you can fit in anywhere.
And then thinking about identity.
- Exactly.
- Okay, I'm feeling this now.
- Right, isn't it super cool?
- It's super cool.
It's a totally different versionthan my old understanding.
- Yeah.
- As, you know, I'm five foot, four.
When I try and pass insocial spaces as male,
I'm gonna not be great.
(18:36):
But I'm really trying to move away
from the really beefy,bulky dude stereotype.
- As your idea ofmasculine gender identity.
- Right, so I'm engaging
with a different type of masculinity
with this next character.
- Oh, I can't wait. Ithink this is incredible.
All right, can you, I wannasee your, you brought.
- Yes, I brought some cool dice.
- There's so many objects on this table.
This one has 20?
(18:58):
- 20 sides, yeah.- 20 sides, okay.
Oh, you could see that ifyou kept turning it Randall.
And there's this, like,sparkly world in it.
This is, like, the astrophysics of dice.
- Yeah, so these are dice that I got
to represent my plasmoid actually.
- Okay, so for our friends whocan't see what I'm holding,
it really is,
it's like holding a worldinside of a green glass die.
And it's 20 sided.
(19:18):
And you, this is the engine to campaigns.
- Absolutely.
- Okay, talk to me aboutthe, I'm gonna just,
when we think about how we move forward,
it's all chance in these worlds,
but in your world, in science,
it's nothing is left to chance.
- Well, you'd be surprised.
Statistics are a huge part of my research.
So in D&D, you basically roll the dice,
(19:41):
and then you add some modifiers,
depending on your character.
And then the DM sets what's called a DC.
And if you're above thatDC then you succeed.
If you're below that DC then you fail
at what you're trying to do.
In science, failure is a huge part of it.
In science, your firsthypothesis is never, ever,
ever going to be right.
And I talk about thisa lot with undergrads.
(20:03):
Because we're not taught that, you know?
We're taught that you needto succeed on the first try,
which is impossible.
- Yeah.
So failure is a goal,
'cause it teaches you something.
- Exactly, and so, you know,
when I give this talk to undergrads,
I say, like, "Here's myresume, very impressive,"
and then they're like, "Ohmy God, she's so impressive."
(20:24):
And then later on, I put up my resume,
and then in the nextcolumn, my failure resume.
So I say, yes, I got this,
but I had to apply to 30 internships
and get ghosted from 29 of them.
- Oh, I love this.
- You know what I mean?- Yeah.
And do you weave it with D&D
when you're talking to folks?
Is this something that's beenANDed for you for a while?
- Yeah, so I do talk about D&D a lot
(20:46):
with respect to science as well,
'cause, you know, Ioftentimes, for my world maps,
will just steal the maps of other planets
and then add some water to them.
And I'm like yeah, thisis my homebrew world.
It's definitely not Mars.
And I love though, butyou've gotta just add water.
- Yeah, exactly.
- 'Cause that's,
and which doesn't existevery place in the universe.
We're pretty lucky.
We should be nicer to our oceans.
(21:07):
- Yeah, absolutely.
- Okay, so in your homebrew.
- Yeah, so I weave D&D in that way.
But with respect to science, again,
there is a lot of statistics in it.
So for example,
the research that I'm doingnow with Dr. Dave Brain
at the laboratory foratmospheric and space physics is
a Monte Carlo simulation ofthe net effects of many impacts
on planetary atmosphere.
(21:28):
So let's break that down.
- Yeah, please.
But I, 'cause I can't get over Dr. Brain.
- Yeah, I know.
He can't get over it too.
He goes-- Does he get, like,
he's a bad guy?
- He just goes by Dave 'causehe thinks it's so funny.
- 'Cause it's so funny.
Yeah, okay. All right.
Now I'm over it.
Okay, now I can learn.
Thanks.
- Yeah. So, yeah.
So Monte Carlo, it isnamed after the casino.
(21:48):
- Okay.
- And that's because ithas to do with chance.
So what we're doing-
- The roll of the dice is a thing.
- Exactly.
Literally in my code,
there's pick a randomnumber between zero and one.
So what we're doing is we pick
from a size frequency distribution.
So out in space near earth,
there's a lot of very small rocks,
and not a large, very big rocks.
Which is great for us,
because we don't like gettinghit by very big rocks.
(22:10):
Goodbye, dinosaurs.
I know, now I'm hearing Aerosmith.
- Right.
- And those also have avelocity frequency distribution.
So some of 'em are pretty fast.
Some of 'em are pretty slow.
We're talking kilometers per second.
So, pretty slow is relative.
And so we randomly pick animpactor from that size frequency
and velocity frequency distribution.
And we throw it at a planet.
(22:31):
So Venus, Earth, or Mars iswhat I'm working on right now.
And then we see whathappens to the atmosphere.
So think about, like, my water bottle.
If I took an ice cubeand gently dropped it in,
I'd end up with morewater than when I started.
But if I took a huge snowballand really hucked it in there,
I'd probably splash out a bunch of water,
and might end up withless than when I started.
It's the same thing with impactorsand planetary atmosphere.
(22:52):
So if you have a very largedry impactor, like an asteroid,
and it hits the earth,
you're gonna splash outa bunch of atmosphere.
But if you take a bunchof really small wet comets
and "gently place them onthe surface," quote, unquote,
then you'll add atmosphere.
So the question is,some add, some subtract,
what about what happens whenyou throw a bunch of them?
(23:14):
Do you rehydrate a planet?
Do you completely getrid of the atmosphere?
Like, what's happening there?
And this is really useful aswe start to study exoplanets,
which are planets outsideof our solar system
in other solar systems.
And we say, okay, well,
we think we know this habitable zone,
which is where it's cold enough
that water doesn't evaporate too fast,
and it's, you know, warmenough that it's not frozen.
(23:37):
But what if that habitable zone changes
as the star goes through its lifespan?
You know, like, eventuallyEarth's gonna be uninhabitable
because the sun's gonna geta little bigger and engulf.
- This was such a happyepisode, and, okay.
- Yeah.
Well don't worry, we'llbe long gone by then.
Anyways, so what if we can rehydrate
(23:58):
previously desiccated planetsthrough impact bombardment?
That would be super useful.
And then we're totallyunderestimating the number
of habitable worlds there are out there.
Or what if you have too many impactors
that will totally desiccate a planet?
And then we're overestimating the number
of habitable worlds out there.
This is super useful information
for people who study exoplanets.
And so that's what I'mworking on right now.
(24:20):
- And this feeds your storytelling.
- Oh, yeah.
Well, a big part of sciencecommunication is storytelling.
You've noticed that I'veused a lot of metaphors,
and I use this all the timewhen I'm tutoring undergrads.
- Were you a theater kid?
- Okay, let's talk about this.
So I was a tech theater kid.
- I knew it. Were you a stage manager?
- I wasn't a stage manager.
I did lights. I did a little bit of-
(24:40):
- Backstage stuff though.
- I really, after absorbingyour essence, I was like,
I'm really getting a, like,
they're serving me stage manager.
- Yeah.
- But no, so lights, communication, okay.
- Yeah. Yeah.
So a big part of communicatingscience is storytelling.
So you've noticed I've usedmetaphors, that sort of thing.
And I do this all the timewhen I tutor undergrads.
And, like, a big part ofthe, here's an example.
(25:01):
So if you go outside andthe sun is too bright,
what do you do?
You put your hand up to block the sun,
or you cover your eyes.
That's direct imaging of exoplanets.
That's how we do direct imaging.
You cover up the lightcoming from the star
and then you can see thedimmer planet next to it.
- Did you have a humanwho first showed you
how to show up with science,
besides the person youwere mad at and said,
"No, I'm gonna take this forward"?
(25:22):
Was there someone elsemodeling this for you?
Or was this just kind of an innate way
that your brain has workedsince you were a tiny human?
- So, a couple of things.
One is I have had so manymentors that are so important.
I mentioned Patricia,
but also Mark Cher, David Armstrong,
Kelsey Singer, Ellen Stofan,former chief scientist of NASA,
Adam McKay, Dave Brain,I could go on and on.
(25:43):
There's so many peoplethat have helped me.
And that's something
that we don't know about science either,
'cause a lot of the timescience is, you know,
a brilliant man who'srejected by the masses,
goes into a room with a lab coat on,
and he comes out and everything's changed.
You know, that's a storywe tell about Feinman,
who was not a great guy, by the way.
That's what we tellabout Einstein, you know,
(26:04):
all these people, we say, you know,
Isaac Newton went alone into seclusion,
worked on their own, came out.
Everything's different.
- Yep, genius.
- Science doesn't work like that.
That's really glamorous andawesome for storytellers.
But that's not how science works.
Science is a group project.
You need people who will check your ideas,
who will check your math,
(26:24):
who will say, "Why don'twe do it this way?"
- And people that you willbe willing to fail with.
- Exactly, because failureis such an important part.
- And that's a hard chemistry.
I don't know if you feel thaton your, on the quest as well,
because some folks are failingor are not hitting the mark.
But what is the personality of failure.
What is that like and howdoes that change a team?
How does that change an idea?
(26:45):
'Cause folks sit differently with failure.
- Oh, absolutely.
And I mean, when I was younger,
I was totally academically anxious.
Not to say I'm not stillacademically anxious,
but a little less.
And, you know, if I got a B on a test,
I would be devastated.
- End of days.- Right.
- End of days.- Right.
And then, you know, inundergrad I realized, oh,
this is a pattern thathappens in my physics classes,
(27:06):
is I do really well on the first test,
I do not so great on the second test,
then I do well on the second,
on the third and the fourth.
- So you mapped it.
- Exactly.
I took data and drewconclusions from that data
and changed my behavior based off of it.
That's what science is.
And so really changing mymindset with respect to failure,
I think has helped me succeed so much.
Like, yeah, it really suckswhen you don't get that grant.
(27:28):
But science grants havelike, a 10% acceptance rate.
You're not gonna getevery grant you apply for.
And that means that you're a scientist,
you know what I mean?
- Yeah, failing means you're a scientist.
And can you see that chemistry
when you are on your campaigns,
if there are people who are, like,
the sore losers or who are the,
how do you, yeah, when they're,
or are when they,
when folks are in their characters,
are they in their better selves?
Are they in their better natures?
(27:50):
- Yeah, so characters aretypically completely different
from the actual person.
- Okay, 'cause I really want one.
- Yeah, yeah, we'll build you one.
- Okay, 'cause I think of it as a body
that sits outside thatrepresents my inner,
or is it, no,
it's can be like a total counterpoint.
- Yeah, so normally what I dowhen I'm building characters,
and as a DM, you'replaying every character
that the players aren't playing.
So you walk into a bar,
(28:11):
I'm the barkeeper and allof the people in the bar.
You walk outside, I'mthe guard who stops you.
Like, I am everyone in theworld who isn't you, basically.
And so coming up with NPCs,
non playable characters, on the fly,
you typically just take apart of your personality
and amp it up to 10.
- Wow.
- Yeah, and so with player characters,
you wanna take a fewcomponents of your personality,
(28:32):
so you're really drawing from something,
and change those in a way.
Like, my relationship withmasculinity has changed
through my D&D characters,
and my relationship withmy gender has changed,
and my relationship with, you know,
anxiety and depression
and all that sort of thing has changed
through my D&D characters.
And so you can, it'sreally, like, therapy,
where you're pretending to be a goblin.
(28:53):
- Yeah, I just can't, this isso gorgeous to me as a way,
especially when it seemslike anxiety's up in our kids
and notions of gender fluidity,
they're up because there's room.
But there's not alwaysspace to work 'em out.
So D&D as a curriculardevice for humaning.
(29:15):
- Absolutely, that is areally good way of putting it.
Yeah, D&D is a fantastic safe space.
And as a DM, part of that isto cultivate that safe space.
And a really important part
of that is a session zero, which is-
- What's a session zero?
- Yeah, so that's where you sit down
and you make a socialcontract with your players.
So I have a session zerodocument that's like, you know,
maybe seven pages, single spaced.
- Do you start all yourmeetings like this at work too?
(29:36):
'Cause this sounds like perfect agreements
to go into a project that's gonna fail.
- Yeah. Yeah.
So when I'm mentoring undergradsand that sort of thing,
I kind of talk about, like,here's my goals for you,
let's talk about whatyour goals are for you,
before we start the mentoring.
- Is that a session zero?
- Yeah, and so in mysession zero document,
I talk about, like, here'show I'm gonna do level ups.
Like, here's how I'm gonna distribute XP.
But also here are some touchy things
(29:58):
that we might talk about in the campaign.
Let's have a system for, ifyou get triggered, you can say,
"Hey, this is a line.
I don't wanna talk about this," or,
"I want this to be a veil,let's fade to black,"
or, "Can we rewind ascene and not do this?"
And that is very important
for building a safe andcomfortable space for your players.
- That sounds so much likewhat we do in a theater world
when we're doing theater intimacy,
(30:19):
and how far can we go,
because we're going off the text so often
to get to the character,
which then imbues the textwith new ideas and newness.
But we've been thinking about this a lot
in faculty meetings and in team meetings,
how, when, especially in spaces
where we're trying to do anti-racist work
and we're gonna bump up against things,
when we're trying to do decolonizing work
(30:41):
and we're gonna hit our stories,
how do we get safe with it?
And to veil, to rewind,
all of this is, like,
actually really incredibleprimers to human.
- Yeah. Yeah.
- You should take this to your department.
- Oh, that would be interesting.
I'll sit down and belike, we need to play D&D.
No, I swear it's for science.
(31:01):
- But it does make methink about, you know,
when we're, like,
bringing students or bringingnew folks into spaces,
how do we do this better?
And D&D.
Okay, I want a character.
- Okay, fantastic.
- Can I have a character?- Yeah.
- Really, we could do it right now?
- Yeah, so-
- Do we need a session zero first,
or do we feel like we're in good?
- Well, we'd have toplay a campaign for that.
- Oh, okay.
(31:21):
So we can do a character without that.
- Yes.
So, you know,
normally building a charactertakes maybe like three hours,
but we're gonna do the fast version.
So open-
- We like a quick and dirty.
- Yeah, I'm cracking openmy player's handbook.
- I've seen this, this player's handbook.
My nephew gave my kiddo one of these.
- They're fantastic. This is the best.
Okay, so the first stepis to choose a species.
(31:43):
And there's lots of different species,
but I'm just gonna hand this book to you,
and you're gonna pick onethat you think sounds good.
Just flip through those.
So right now, Erika islooking at dwarves, elves.
- And I can just keep going with you.
- Yeah, keep going.
- Ooh, I'm like already, elf.
- Yeah, elves.- Yeah.
- You wanna do an elf?
- Oh yeah.- Okay.
So then there's woodelves, there's high elves,
and you could be a half elf.
(32:04):
- I'm interested in the half elf.
- Half elves are half elves, half human.
- Okay, cool. Great.
- Let's do half elf.
- Okay, we'll do half elf.
- Okay, so in that case,
I already think I have an idea
of what you're goingto choose for a class,
but let's just, you know, take a-
- I've given too much away.
- So next you're gonna choose a class.
And you can kind ofskim through that table.
(32:25):
- I'm just gonna go really fast.
- So different types ofclasses include, like,
barbarian, cleric, fighter.
- It's so funny, I had adream about church last night,
which is, like, making me look at cleric,
but that's not what I want.
Oh, but I'm paladin.
- Paladins are super neat.I've played paladins.
Yeah, okay.
So you-
- What did you think Iwas gonna say, rogue?
- I thought you were gonna say bard.
- Bard, oh.
(32:46):
Oh, yeah.
I love that, except for Ican't sing for any anything.
And I tried to playguitar once, and uh-uh.
- Well, that's the great thing about D&D-
- That I could play.- Maybe you could.
- Oh, see, I see what's happening.
- Yeah.
- Okay, but I'm stillgonna stick with paladin
because of my dream.
Okay, but I've always wantedto play the accordion, so.
All right, we'll work it in next time.
- Okay, so you're gonnaplay a half elf paladin,
(33:09):
and then you wouldchoose a character name,
which is really tough,
but if you have any offthe top of your head,
you can give 'em to me,
or I have a list that Ishould be able to give you.
- It's so funny.
Okay, so one of my favorite humans
and favorite ANDers is Michelle Ellsworth.
And her name Ellsworth justcame to mind because of the elf.
And then I was like, ohmy God, that's hilarious.
(33:30):
I'm making an Ellsworthian character.
So we'll be Elfsworth.
- Elfsworth, okay. Fantastic.
Okay, so you are a half elf paladin.
There's D&D is typically polytheistic.
And the gods are veryinvolved in normal things.
So like, you can be walking along,
and like, try and rob adude, psych, it's a God.
(33:53):
And then they're coming for you.
- Okay, this is also greatmoral compass that you don't,
you never know.
- Yeah.
Well that's a big thing,is there are these,
there's a certain type ofplayers called murder hobos,
which are just like, I wannaplay this like a video game,
I wanna run around and killpeople and steal things.
And that's a good thing toweed out at session zero.
- Okay, yeah. No murder hobos.
- Yeah.
(34:13):
- Okay, this, that,
we need that shirt for thepodcast that's on the back,
just in quotes, "no murder hobos."
- Yeah, so there are alot of different, like,
God versions and that sort of thing,
but why don't you just pick one from that?
- And this is gonna bekind of my most ruling God,
who is my, a guiding troublemaker.
- Who gives you your magic.
They're the source of your magic.
(34:33):
- Oh, okay. This is, okay.
Oh, oh, I love the goddess of pain.
Loviatar, is that how we say her name?
- Let's see.
- Okay, here, so I'm thinking,
because pain is, yeah, that'ssome serious source material.
- Awesome, okay.
(34:55):
All right.
Okay, now I'm just gonna doa little narration for you.
This is off the dome.
Okay, Elfsworth steps outof the small tree house
that she's lived in forthe past several decades.
Half elves live a littlebit longer than humans,
but not as long as elves,
which Elfsworth thinks about periodically.
(35:16):
She's really been thinkinglately about what she wants to do
with her life.
She's been, you know,working for Loviatar,
trying to process people'schronic pain for a while now,
but she's feeling kindof stagnant in her life.
And so as she steps out of her tree house,
her long flowing darkrobes swishing about her,
kind of muted by the dark plate armor
(35:39):
that she wears on her top half,
she sheaths her sword on her back
and steps out into the street.
As she walks,
she says hello to severalof the other half elves
that live in her commune,also priests of Loviatar.
She walks down to themain community board,
and she reads some of thejobs that are available.
(36:00):
She comes across one,
"Meet at the tavern at 8:00 PM.
I'm talking to you, Elfsworth."
That's what it says in the text.
- It has my name right there.
- Exactly.
And she thinks,
maybe this will be thestart of something great.
So, there you go. That's a scene.
- Yes, I am so in.
- Yeah.
(36:20):
- Okay, I love this. I'm so in.
Okay, this could start a, Ido not have time for this,
but I want it.
- Yeah.
- This is a huge buildof time in your world.
How are you holding all of this science,
all of this educating,
all of this imagination in your human,
what did you say, fivefoot, four body self?
(36:42):
How are you holding all of this?
- Yeah, so, you know,
I was talking aboutmetacognition a while ago,
and thought it would be a useful exercise
to kind of talk aboutwhat my brain looks like.
And so I can tell you about that
if you think that would be useful.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, okay, so-
- Are we mapping it onto one of those?
- That would be funny.
Yeah, so in my brain,
I typically have a coupledifferent narrators.
(37:04):
Like, some people havenarrators that talk.
And I typically have, like,two or three running at a time.
- In dialogue or just?
- Yeah, typically workingon different problems
or stuff like that.
But then I also have whatI call, like, the computer,
which doesn't use words.
So that's actually a fasterprocessor for me is to think in,
like, equations and images.
So instead of thinking like, oh,
(37:24):
Mason, my boyfriend, is latecoming back from his run,
I think, like, an image ofMason, an image of running,
and then an image of a clock.
And so that's a lot fasterfor me than processing words.
And this is somethingthat's super interesting
about reading, actually,
is we are limited in how fast we can read
by how fast our human braincan pronounce English.
And so actually removingthat sort of processing
(37:45):
can help you read faster,which is super neat.
- So is that how youcould also be multitasking
with being a dungeon master and-
- Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
So I have one narratorworking on all the D&D stuff,
and then one working on the science.
And then I have, so the computer is, like,
actually what my processing is,
and then that gets translatedinto words by my narrators.
And so when I'm not talking to people,
(38:06):
I oftentimes turn off my narrators,
and I'm thinking only in, like,
images and that sort of thing.
- And you do that consciously?
- You know, it's pretty natural.
But that was what sort ofmade me good at languages
when I was in high school.
Don't ask me to speak Spanish.
I don't remember that much of it.
But back then I was pretty good at it,
because I was already translatingin my head into English.
(38:26):
- And so that translationis also what you're doing
with the science and the language,
and the taking out of jargon,
that cutting through.
And so that translation is a natural part-
- Yeah, exactly, exactly,
and a very important partof communicating science.
And then the last dudethat's kind of in my brain is
I call him, like, the primalthing behind the curtain.
And it's like, a gut instinct.
(38:46):
You probably have thisin your day-to-day life.
And that happens for me with science too.
When I'm reading a science,like a question on a test,
I'm like, this is what the answer is.
But then I never really trust that,
and I wait for my processor to catch up
and my narrators catch up.
And then I'm like, okay,yeah, now I trust that.
- And the trust that has to come forward,
especially with so much failing.
(39:07):
- Learning to trust myself
and that gut instinct is something
that I'm still working through.
- And to work, that gutis really important,
because it sparks for you,not only I know the answer,
but new questions.
- Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- Which are critical in theway that you're studying.
- Absolutely.
- Science is all about asking questions.
(39:27):
- New questions, newquestions, new questions.
So, oh, this means we'regetting close to the end,
which I hate, 'cause I'm reallyhappy to know you, Mikayla.
So for the quick and dirty,which is our speed round,
we'll do something a little different
where you choose whichquestion comes first.
You're gonna roll a six-sided die.
- Okay. Fantastic.
- And then it's gonna let me know
what question I'm gonna ask you.
- Okay.
- Okay, go.
(39:48):
(die thudding)
- Five.
- Okay, it's a five.
Okay, two bands you listen towhile creating your campaigns.
- Oh, okay, VampireWeekend and Fleet Foxes.
- Yes.- Yeah.
- Excellent. Okay, next.
Go, roll.
(die thudding)
- Six.
- Okay.
When we talked aboutWallace and Gromit earlier,
and the naming,
what's another pair ofthings human, non-human,
(40:12):
that you love together?
- Oh, okay. That's a good question.
I probably say reptiles and mammals.
- You have a bearded dragon.
- I have a beardeddragon and a ball python.
But also, you know, theinterplay between, you know,
and this would,
we'll get too much deep into it
if I think about it too much,
but thinking about howhumans are reptiles,
and thinking about howmammals have evolved
(40:33):
from that is really interesting.
- It's really interesting. I love that.
And I love that you have them.
You're so good
at creating the physicalrepresentation of your minds.
Okay, roll again.
- All right.
(die thudding)
That's a five, so I'm gonna re-roll.
That's a six, so I'm gonna re-roll.
That's two.
- Okay, two.
The two objects you wouldalways take with you
on a D&D quest,
although it might be differentdepending on your character.
(40:53):
- Yeah, it definitely would be different,
depending on my character.
Yeah, exactly.
So for Milky, he definitelyhas his great sword,
and he always carries with him three socks
in case he loses one.
And then Max also has a great sword,
but he would always bring his dog,
who's this huge, like,horse-sized Mastiff named Echo.
And he would probablybring his plate armor,
(41:15):
'cause that's very important to him.
Kai, who's my plasmoid, wouldalways bring his magic wand,
because otherwise he can't use magic.
And he has a purple handkerchief
with the name of theartificer that created him
that he carries with him.
- Okay. Amazing.
I was writing about ahandkerchief this morning.
We're totally in pocket.
Okay, roll again.
- Okay.
(die thudding)
- Two. One.
(41:35):
- Okay, your favorite cheese pairings.
- Cheese. Okay.
So cheese and I have a verycomplicated relationship.
I used to really not like cheese,
but I'm growing into it.
And I would say
that my favorite cheese isPirate Booty from Trader Joe's.
- And.
- And I normally pair that with kombucha,
(41:55):
specifically Pink Lady Apple Kombucha.
Most excellent.
- We have one more.
Let's see.
(die thudding)
Four.
- Nailed it.- Awesome.
- Okay.
If there was a D&D dating app,
which Tim and I think is a brilliant idea,
what characters are the most compatible?
- Ooh, okay.
That's super interesting.
(42:15):
So when building a party,
you typically want a caster, a rogue,
who's like a sneaky guy,
a tank, who's someonewho can get up in combat
and take a lot of hits,
and a cleric or a healer.
So you'd probably need somesort of poly relationship
between these four.
- Such good ending.
Am I cleric in my?
- You're a paladin.
- I'm a paladin, that's right.
- Which is a half caster.
(42:36):
So you can heal and you cantank and you can cast magic.
- Oh, I like that I can tank.
And I like tank as a verb.
Okay, I'm so feeling that.
If you, then our final question
that we like to have folksgive their offering to,
and because you probablyeither have or will do this,
give a speech for graduation,
or a send off to a quest,
(42:56):
a blessing that starts with "and."
What would yours be?
- Okay.
(uplifting music)
And the next time that it's dark outside,
I urge you to gatherthe people that you love
and lay above the great abyss of the sky,
held to Earth by just thethin tether of gravity,
and look at the moon,
(43:17):
and remember that we putpeople together there.
So even when your problems feel small
in comparison to the cosmos,
you can remember thatwhen we work together,
we can do really big things.
(uplifting music continues)
- That was Mikayla Huffman,
who is pursuing a PhD in CU Boulder's
Astrophysical and PlanetarySciences department.
(43:37):
To learn more aboutMikayla's incredible work,
see our show notes.
"The Ampersand" is a production
of the College of Arts and Sciences
at the University of Colorado Boulder.
It is written and produced by me,
Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
If there are people you'dlike us to interview
on "The Ampersand,"
do please email us at asinfo@colorado.edu.
(44:00):
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker,
and the episodes are recorded
at Interplay Recordingin Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall, andthis is "The Ampersand."
(uplifting music)
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