February 27, 2023 • 25 mins
On The Ampersand, we highlight stories of people who dive into their interests. Equally important is the way we tell our stories. Today’s guest is Aliya Trapp, an undergraduate student at the University of Colorado Boulder majoring in ethnic studies and international affairs. Aliya loves to cook, garden and plays bass in a Grateful Dead cover band while diving deep into her studies. Besides chasing her interests with abandon, though, she reminds us just how important ANDing conversations can be.
Mentioned in today's episode:
Unreformed: the Story of the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children
Equity and inclusion in the wine industry.
The vineyard where Aliya will work after college.
The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone by Heather McGhee.
Ladysmith Black Mambazo are the South African men’s choir who perform Isicathamiya and Mbube on Paul Simon’s Graceland.
---
For those concerned about Erika’s vocal drop to baritone, she was recovering from a head cold during the recording. Please feel free to email well-wishes.
Music by Nelson Walker.
Written and produced by Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
Episodes recorded at Interplay Recording in Boulder, CO.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
(indistinct chatter)
- I imagine Aliyah Trapplacing up her stomping boots
before walking into theexecutive suite of a major bank
in a New York City skyrise.
She takes time to look eachbusiness-suited man in the eye
before sitting and saying,I'm your diversity consult.
(00:21):
The room bristles, butAliyah hums with confidence
and an infectious laughterthat disarms each executive
in turn before she laysout just how much revenue
the organization is losing
by not prioritizing equity and inclusion.
Against the odds, shegets the group to sign off
on specific steps they will take
to make their company morewelcoming to BIPOC employees.
(00:43):
The C-suite, which isaccustomed to moving on
to the next order of business
even before presenters are done
waits for Aliyah to go,
almost in deference tohaving met someone they know
in their depths may just change the world.
(indistinct chatter)
(01:06):
(guitar music)
I can't imagine Aliyahdriving her bright orange jeep
to a venue to play bass ina Grateful Dead cover band
or teaching her roommates tocook gorgeous healthy meals
to improve the way theyfeel or freaking out
(01:26):
about weird bugs whileworking in an organic garden
to learn about what goesinto growing produce.
As you will discover in today'sepisode, Aliyah is someone
who thrives when learning something new,
both because the newnessmakes experiences vivid
and more importantly becausethey offer her another way
to connect with the people she meets.
(light music)
(01:49):
On The Ampersand, we callthis bringing together
of the impossible the alchemy of anding.
Together, we're hear storiesof humans who imagine
and create by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunction junction kind of way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
a way to speak the beautiful
when you intentionally let the soft animal
(02:11):
of your body love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks,"What is it you plan to do
"with your one wild and precious life?"
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating and collaborating,
it reminds me to replace a singular idea
of what I think I should become
with a full sensoryverb about experiencing.
(02:32):
I'm Erika Randall and this isAliyah Trapp on The Ampersand.
(light music)
- I worked as a DEIconsult for a few banks.
And I had to come in as my20-year-old, female, brown self
(02:54):
and sit myself down in anoffice of all executives
from ages 50 to 70, I wanna say.
- And you were their consult.
- And I was their consult.
And I'm talking to CEOs and everything,
so I'm like, oh my gosh.
I was quaking in myboots before I walked in.
- Were you wearing boots,were you wearing actual boots?
- I actually was wearing boots.
(03:16):
- Yes, ground down.
- Yes, I call them my stomping boots, too.
They're thick, anyways, Ineeded that ground that day.
But anyways, it was in theglass room and everything.
I was like-
- I am in a nightmare dream situation.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think coming, A,something that I think
(03:37):
that I've gotten good at over the years
especially growing up in theSouth where not everyone wants
to hear my opinion, ornot even my opinion,
just the knowledge that I have learned
about social justice workand that needs to be shared,
is understanding my audience.
For example, with the banks, Iwould start economic forward.
I would start economic forward-
(03:58):
- Warming them up.
- Right, warming them up.
- Speaking their language.
- Your business is not doing well
because you are not diverse
and here are the statistics to show that.
Statistics, that's what a lot of people-
- Data.Data, data.
- Data, dude, data.
- So and then kind of on theback end then starting to talk
(04:20):
about things like queeragendas, feminist agendas,
something off the rip.
I always try to be myauthentic self off the rip.
And I think that has alsohelped me to attract people in
because they know who I am from the jump.
So if they're not gonna roll with me,
they're probably gonna run, I guess.
(04:41):
- Or they're gonna reallyroll and they're gonna get
into what it is that you have.
- Exactly, so I thinkthat that's something
that's been how I've built a lot-
- Is that how you got intothat gig to start with?
Did you have a mentor that got you there
or did you just say, there'sa need, I'm stepping in?
- Yeah, yeah, I actually got in through...
So my stepdad has, he's a banker as well.
(05:01):
So I got in through that and he-
- He listens to you.
- Oh, yeah, he listens to me
and that's been huge for us, too,
because I think at the beginning of...
And he's probably gonnalisten to this later on,
but at the beginning ofhe and I's relationship,
we didn't really heareach other super well.
And then having the ability
(05:22):
to have conversations likethat now, I don't wanna cry,
is so meaningful to me becauseit has just connected us
in such a different way.
- And he trained you up tothese hard conversations
and you trained him up.
- Exactly, exactly, I like that, yeah.
We really helped, we reallytaught each other a lot
and that's been really huge.
(05:44):
And so he, yeah, he guidedme into that and then also,
he talked to me a lotabout the conversations
about how there is sucha need for diversity
and inclusion within banking,especially when it comes
to discriminatory practicestowards even giving out loans
and then things regarding that.
(06:04):
So he gives me a lot ofknowledge in that sector-
- Have you read, The Sum of Us?
- I haven't.
Need to?- Check it out.
- Okay, The Sum of Us.
- Yeah, the economics and politics of race
and it's been a huge book inthe last little bit of time,
but I think you'll digit, The Sum of Us, yeah.
- Interesting.- I'll write it down.
(06:24):
- Yeah, and I was about to ask that.
- I'll text you.
So you're a student, butyou've already worked for banks
and you have a band andyou care about food.
And you care about feedingyour soul and your human body
and you care about a lot.
(06:45):
So when we're talking aboutanding in this podcast,
it's like Aliyah cares about this
and cares about this and...
So is there a care-o-meterthat gets depleted
or is it all just all cares?
- I think that's kind of more...
It's just like...
I am honestly all overthe place at some points,
(07:06):
but that's what I loved whenyou sent me the questions
and focused in on anding.
When I showed my bestfriend, Jess, the question,
she was like, "This is so you it's crazy."
- Did you identify though as an ander
before you saw the questions?
- I didn't identify as an ander
'cause I don't even think Irealized I could even take
(07:27):
that on, I don't evenknow, but it's all I do.
Yeah, so I guess thecare-o-meter, I think it goes
through a lot of things thataffect honestly are my classes.
Whatever classes I'm in atthe moment, I'm full throttle,
going into that, full careto this topic right now.
And then the other thingsI guess go down a little
(07:48):
and it's not that I care about them less,
I guess it's less on my mind.
But I do get overwhelmed at points.
I do get overwhelmed at points.
- But is that just a natural?
Has that always been likeyou really care about that,
then you really care about couture?
If something's in front ofyou, it is in front of you
and you are doing it.
So we can't teach...
(08:08):
If this podcast we're gonnatry to teach people how
to care more, is it justlistening to you that's gonna help
or do you have aprescription for caring more
or is it just really show up in the lane?
Or is it just so innate to you
you don't even know what the alchemy is?
- I think it is pretty innate,
but I also think it is showing up.
And that's a lot ofthings that I talk about,
(08:31):
even with my friends when I'mtalking about social justice
and what it even looks liketo begin to get into it.
If you're like, okay,hey, I wanna be a part
of the conversation, how do I get there?
And that's what I always say,I'm just like, just show up.
Bring your body there, getyour body to a position
or a place or anenvironment where you think
(08:54):
that you might gain someknowledge from someone, show up.
So I think that that'sthe most important thing
'cause I also think for me personally
I show up and whatever it is,
I'm gonna go full throttle into it.
And I understand that not everyone has
that same personality trait, I guess.
But I still think it's justso powerful to show up.
(09:14):
- When you show up around food,
I show up for food likeordering or I show up for food
in washing the dishes.
You don't just show up to eat, to sustain.
You're like how can I heal theplanet while feeding myself,
while making sure that everybody knows
that this particularlegume has a feminist,
ecofeminist perspective andwe're gonna mix and match these.
(09:37):
Talk to me about this 'causeI really like microwave
and I'm good at grilling,but I don't know how
to do the things I care about with food.
- Okay, so I love this question
because I am crazy about food.
I am crazy about it.
And it's always been somethingreally important to me
(09:59):
because my mom has always cooked.
She is crazy.
You know, she's the kind of person
who just opens up the fridge
and just you see the ingredients-
- No recipe needed.
- No recipe.
- And that didn't intimidate you
'cause my mom's a really goodcook and it just made me go,
oh, that's cool, that's your thing.
- No, I don't think it intimidated me
because of how much she invited me in.
(10:20):
And now I'm not gonna lieI can do the same thing.
I can open up the fridgeand cook whatever.
But it's because sheinvited me in so much.
When I would wanna cook with her,
I'd be like, all right,so how much of this, Mom?
And she's just like, "Well,just however much you think."
And I'm like, okay, all right, girl.
And if it didn't turn outgood, she would never be like,
(10:42):
oh gosh, so bad!- Too much cardamom.
- Yeah, you're never welcomein the kitchen again.
She's just like, "Yeah, girl, whatever."
It's like life, sometimesyou mess up in the kitchen,
but you keep going, you keeplearning and you keep growing.
My mom and I talk on the phone every day.
I've learned so much fromher and I think I am now
in a position where shelearns so much from me.
(11:04):
And it's great because sheand I are having conversations
like you and I are having,all day, every day.
Not in a harmful way whatsoever.
Always in a food is fueland good food is fuel
and also food doesn't have tobe and cooking doesn't have
to be something that'sfar out, not for you
and not for anyone.
(11:25):
And there are things thateveryone can do in the kitchen
on every single level of income as well
that I think isn't talked about a lot.
And I think that that's reallyharmful to a lot of people
because then you grow upwith a lot of food patterns
that just aren't reallysustainable for yourself
and then those habits form over time
and then it forms just liketoxicities within your body
(11:49):
that affect your mentaland just everything.
I mean, your gut is everything.
- And if you wanna trust your gut,
you gotta take care of that gut.
- You gotta take care of the gut, exactly.
So I think that that'ssomething I grew up around.
I think something that hasreally helped me understand a lot
of people weren't invitedinto the kitchen like this
(12:10):
when they were younger.
A lot of people's parentsweren't even in the kitchen.
And I was very fortunate to have a mom
who really made it a priority,
we're having a home-cooked meal-
- I'm feeling guilt andshame right now about myself,
but I'm gonna trust thatit's gonna work out.
- No, no guilt, no shame, no shame.
(12:30):
- No, it's beautiful.
- Food feeds my soul as well as my body.
And so I try to makeit my little art piece.
I love to give it some form ofpresentation or make it fun.
- Not mac and cheese out ofthe pot, you don't do that.
Okay, this is gonna goreally well for me later.
(Erika laughs)
(12:51):
It's really hot though whenyou eat it out of a pot
by the stove.
And it tastes better,which maybe if I ate it
at room temperature, Iwould taste the toxicity
of the mac and cheese andthen I could trust my gut.
- And then you could, yeah.- Slowing down.
- I won't even lie, I love abox of Kraft Mac and Cheese
when I'm really craving it.
And that's okay, like I'mtalking about these cold foods
(13:11):
and everything, I don't wannasay I'm perfect with food.
- No, no, no, none of us are, right?
- Exactly, exactly, but also something
that's taught me so muchabout whole foods is...
So I garden for this man named Carl
and he lives five minutes from campus.
I mean, he's just one ofthe most amazing characters
(13:32):
in my life.
He has this massive extensive garden.
So I go probably once or twice a week.
During the summer, I goevery day or every other day.
- But you get in the dirt.
- In the dirt and he loves it.
He thinks it's so funny how I'm like,
Carl, look at this big worm!
Or I freak out about weirdbugs and stuff like that.
(13:54):
And he thinks it's just hilarious.
But having conversations with him
about food has been really interesting.
So he donates probably 100pounds of squash, crazy amounts
of tomatoes, everything like that
to the food bank every single harvest-
- So you see that as part ofanother arrow to DEI with food.
- Exactly, so that's been another thing-
- So there's production,there's the transmission,
(14:17):
there's so many different routes
into DEI thinking with food.
- Right, exactly, andalso this is something
that my mom and I have alot of conversations about,
but it's been so great havingsomeone like Carl in my life
inspired me to say, oh, here's ways
that we can be inclusive with food.
We can teach people also howto grow their own gardens
(14:38):
or hopefully, if there'ssomething at the food bank,
you can cook vegetablesin so many different ways
that's so easy, so delicious
and so fulfilling and simple.
- That was the thingthat I had been learning
in post divorcee world.
I'm like, oh, olive oil, salt and pepper,
it's not that hard.
But prepping, having the time.
And I think that's another part
(14:58):
of the whole DEI conversation
and the feminist conversationis, how do we make time?
How do we make time forfood, how do we make time
not just to eat it, but toreally prepare it in a way
that feels not like a choreand that is when we want
to be in a different space of mind
that doesn't feel like work?
So how does it not feel like work
and how do you bring joy toit so that you can participate
(15:21):
with your food and with your families
or with your communities ina way that feels different?
It's super powerful.
- So I think when Idon't have time to cook,
I always have something in my refrigerator
that's a quick prep andI can cook on the go.
When I have time to prep,I make sure I do so,
then when I'm in the crazyschool week and I don't have time
(15:43):
to get in the kitchen andchill and play my music
and cook and stuff likethat, I still have something
in the fridge that I know I can rely on
that I can cook really quickly.
But then another ways that Ithink interacting with food
in a way that doesn'tmake it feel like a chore
is cooking for my friends,for my people around me.
(16:06):
Food is my love, if youcan't tell, food's my love.
- It's your love language.
- It's my love language.
- Eating food is my love language.
- So a lot of my friends are like that.
- And I'll do all the dishes.
I will do all the dishes becauseI am so grateful for that.
And I know how to stop and slow down
when someone else has prepared a meal.
The only way I can get myself to slow down
(16:27):
and to make it pretty is Ihave an incredible friend
in Scotland who is really good, like you,
food love language.
I will have to make a plate
that would photography worthy for Katie.
So that's the only way I'll doit is I have to take pictures
'cause I wouldn't do it just for me,
I gotta do it for a photo on Sundays.
(16:48):
- Well, it's whateverfloats your goat, I guess.
- I don't know if wewant our goats floated.
- I know, we don't, I guess, actually.
We actually sang a song aboutfloating goats at the camp
that I went to for a ton ofyears, anyway, such a tangent.
- It's so good.
- But yeah, so another way,one last thing I did wanna say,
so my best friend, Jesse,
(17:08):
she's an integrated physiology major
and I'm internationalaffairs and ethnic studies.
And she loves cooking as well,but I'll take the reins a lot
of times if I'm cooking for us.
She'll just be chopping whatever.
And this is really important times for us
because we learn so much from each other.
(17:29):
She teaches me so much from her classes.
- You're study buddies in the kitchen.
- We're study buddies in thekitchen, but she's studying
for her exam by explainingto me what she's learning
and I'm studying for myexams explaining to her.
And that kind of interaction
in the kitchen is I live for it!
(17:50):
She's in this exercisephysiology class right now
and she's just like we haveall these conversations
about activity and howdifferent kinds of activity
affects the body and I'm learning so much
about different pathways and things
that I would never havelearned in my classes.
And then I get to teach herabout social justice stuff
and development in Africa
(18:11):
and all the things that I'm learning.
So it's great, that isanother way interacting
with food is just huge.
- When you talk aboutdevelopment in Africa
and then where your lenshas shifted to see that as,
oh, we might mean colonizing Africa.
I think about your friend who's in I Phy,
(18:33):
she might be talkingabout movement pathways
that colonize the body butwouldn't have had that language
without the conversation in the kitchen.
So I think about how ballethas colonized my body
in a particular verticaldimension and made it harder
for me to drop into theweight of swing dance
when I first started.
So there's a colonizing of the body.
Someone who's studying I Phymight not get that language
(18:54):
unless they're choppingvegetables with you and talking
about the difference betweendevelopment and coloniality.
Do you all chart those ahamoments with each other,
like, oh my God, thatactually fits in my world?
Or does it just happen
and then you're justsharing the same lexicons?
- Because I think also thoseare the kinds of conversations
(19:16):
that inspire me on the dailyand that's the kind of stuff
that I really wannatalk about with people.
And I always am.
I'm always, hey, let's talk about this
and then we can connect inmultiple different ways.
And even another one of myroommates is a psychology major.
And so she knows so much aboutthe mental side of how a lot
(19:38):
of the things that I talkabout with discrimination
and how that affectspeople in the community.
And then she's like,
"Well hey, this is howit affects you mentally."
And so it's all...
It's making those kinds ofconnections that I live for.
- The planet's gonna be okay,the planet's gonna be okay.
When I think about you andyour friends at a dinner party,
I just think the planet is gonna be okay.
- You know, I'm blessed, Ihave a great group of people
(20:02):
around me that wanna hear me,which I think is just so huge
as we talked about just a bit ago.
It's so...
Having a circle of peoplethat are inspired by me
and that I can constantlybe inspired by is just...
But anyways...(Aliyah laughs)
- We could keep going and going,
but I think I can't keep going and going.
I think it's time for our speed round.
(20:24):
So in the Quick and Dirty,this is our flash round,
I'm gonna ask you questions,try not to think too much,
just go with it, just step in.
All right, so this I'mgonna give you a topic
and you need to say the first word
ideally that contains anand that comes to your mind.
So if I say best andingmeal, the Sam and Sam
from Audrey Jane's PizzaGarage, you would say...
(20:47):
- Best anding meal?
Oh my gosh, why is this so hard for me?
- Squash and squash.
- Yeah, squash...
Oh, miso butternut squashsoup, made that the other day.
Crazy, never thoughtI would put some umami
and some butternut squash
and make it Asian peanutystyle as well, and.
(21:08):
- And, awesome, I love that, okay.
Oh, next sheet, okay, best...
So okay, pause, best andingmeal, I wanna eat that
and I'm just thinking about that now.
- Especially if you makehomemade focaccia with it.
- You did not just say homemade focaccia.
Focaccia, all right,you're on a road trip.
(21:30):
Okay, you're driving backfrom the South to here,
it's a long drive.
You're at the dark part of whereyou're getting droopy lids,
you know that terrible part.
- I've made this drive so many times.
- Okay, so what is thealbum that has and in it
that you would put onfor that second wind?
(21:50):
- Graceland by Paul Simon.
- I love how you got the andinside the land of Graceland.
You did that.
- Look at me, we are geniuses.
- We're geniuses, okay, I also have to say
that my partner had never heard that album
because they were born that year
and I had to play Graceland for them.
And I was like, you thinkVampire Weekend did a thing,
(22:11):
no, they took it from PaulSimon who took it from Africa.
- Yes, literally, butthat's why it's an and.
- Yeah, it's an and.
And he also did bring up...
- He did, but I think thatit also brings in an and
in a conversation thatyou can have about it.
- Yeah, while you're listening.
You can be like, oh, allyou Vampire Weekend fans,
if you're listening to Graceland,
let's talk about what'sactually happening.
(22:32):
- I mean, that's how you start.
You're like, oh hey, hear theseAfrican tones in this music,
let's talk about neocolonialismin Africa, boom, and.
- And now you're awake on the road trip.
Okay, the best evening with friends,
this and this with your friends.
- Food and card games.
- Food and card games.
- Honestly, I'm reallycompetitive, Trivial Pursuit,
(22:54):
any trivia game...
- It's happening.- Or Catan.
(Aliyah laughs)- Catan?
Okay, now, that doesn't work.
Okay, a class title you couldn'trefuse that had and in it?
- A class title I couldn't refuse?
Africa and Development.- Africa and Development?
(23:14):
- Yeah.- Who taught it?
- Oh, Cohan, but I'm alsotaking another class on Africa
and Development and Dr.Osborne, amazing, amazing human,
game-changing, literally wow!
Senior seminar class, justget to sit in a circle
with 14 other awesome students
(23:36):
and just have the best conversations,
the most insightful conversations.
- Oh, I'm feeling really jelly,that's beautiful, though.
- I'm like, please, canthis class go on forever?
- Yeah, that's amazing.
It sounds like you have a ton of these,
but an ander you admire.
- An ander I admire?
(23:56):
Carl and my mom.
My mom for sure, I guessI just didn't wanna give
the basic answer, but my mom.
- No one has said momyet, so you're winning.
- Oh really, oh, my mom's an ander.
My mom taught me how to and.
She taught me that, yeah, love that woman.
You would love her!
- I'm gonna love her, I'm gonna love her.
Okay, last thing, on eachepisode, we ask our guests
(24:18):
to offer up something like you would say
at a graduation commencement and may the
or and I or and as you go forth.
What would you say that starts with and
and would lead the nextgeneration to the next?
- I guess as you progress forward,
(24:42):
don't forget to bring people with you.
As you go forward, don't forgetto bring people with you.
- I wanna go with you.
- Yeah, come on, I'll cook.
(Aliyah laughs)
(light music)
- The Ampersand is written andproduced by me, Erika Randall
(25:04):
and Tim Grassley.
If there are folks you'd liketo hear from on The Ampersand,
do please email us at asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker,
a CU Boulder alum,brilliant cellist composer
and a fantastic dancer.
Episodes are recorded at Interplay studios
(25:25):
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall andthis is The Ampersand.
(light music)
(indistinct chatter)
- I imagine Aliyah Trapplacing up her stomping boots
before walking into theexecutive suite of a major bank
in a New York City skyrise.
She takes time to look eachbusiness-suited man in the eye
before sitting and saying,I'm your diversity consult.
(00:21):
The room bristles, butAliyah hums with confidence
and an infectious laughterthat disarms each executive
in turn before she laysout just how much revenue
the organization is losing
by not prioritizing equity and inclusion.
Against the odds, shegets the group to sign off
on specific steps they will take
to make their company morewelcoming to BIPOC employees.
(00:43):
The C-suite, which isaccustomed to moving on
to the next order of business
even before presenters are done
waits for Aliyah to go,
almost in deference tohaving met someone they know
in their depths may just change the world.
(indistinct chatter)
(01:06):
(guitar music)
I can't imagine Aliyahdriving her bright orange jeep
to a venue to play bass ina Grateful Dead cover band
or teaching her roommates tocook gorgeous healthy meals
to improve the way theyfeel or freaking out
(01:26):
about weird bugs whileworking in an organic garden
to learn about what goesinto growing produce.
As you will discover in today'sepisode, Aliyah is someone
who thrives when learning something new,
both because the newnessmakes experiences vivid
and more importantly becausethey offer her another way
to connect with the people she meets.
(light music)
(01:49):
On The Ampersand, we callthis bringing together
of the impossible the alchemy of anding.
Together, we're hear storiesof humans who imagine
and create by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunction junction kind of way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
a way to speak the beautiful
when you intentionally let the soft animal
(02:11):
of your body love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks,"What is it you plan to do
"with your one wild and precious life?"
Oh, I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating and collaborating,
it reminds me to replace a singular idea
of what I think I should become
with a full sensoryverb about experiencing.
(02:32):
I'm Erika Randall and this isAliyah Trapp on The Ampersand.
(light music)
- I worked as a DEIconsult for a few banks.
And I had to come in as my20-year-old, female, brown self
(02:54):
and sit myself down in anoffice of all executives
from ages 50 to 70, I wanna say.
- And you were their consult.
- And I was their consult.
And I'm talking to CEOs and everything,
so I'm like, oh my gosh.
I was quaking in myboots before I walked in.
- Were you wearing boots,were you wearing actual boots?
- I actually was wearing boots.
(03:16):
- Yes, ground down.
- Yes, I call them my stomping boots, too.
They're thick, anyways, Ineeded that ground that day.
But anyways, it was in theglass room and everything.
I was like-
- I am in a nightmare dream situation.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think coming, A,something that I think
(03:37):
that I've gotten good at over the years
especially growing up in theSouth where not everyone wants
to hear my opinion, ornot even my opinion,
just the knowledge that I have learned
about social justice workand that needs to be shared,
is understanding my audience.
For example, with the banks, Iwould start economic forward.
I would start economic forward-
(03:58):
- Warming them up.
- Right, warming them up.
- Speaking their language.
- Your business is not doing well
because you are not diverse
and here are the statistics to show that.
Statistics, that's what a lot of people-
- Data.Data, data.
- Data, dude, data.
- So and then kind of on theback end then starting to talk
(04:20):
about things like queeragendas, feminist agendas,
something off the rip.
I always try to be myauthentic self off the rip.
And I think that has alsohelped me to attract people in
because they know who I am from the jump.
So if they're not gonna roll with me,
they're probably gonna run, I guess.
(04:41):
- Or they're gonna reallyroll and they're gonna get
into what it is that you have.
- Exactly, so I thinkthat that's something
that's been how I've built a lot-
- Is that how you got intothat gig to start with?
Did you have a mentor that got you there
or did you just say, there'sa need, I'm stepping in?
- Yeah, yeah, I actually got in through...
So my stepdad has, he's a banker as well.
(05:01):
So I got in through that and he-
- He listens to you.
- Oh, yeah, he listens to me
and that's been huge for us, too,
because I think at the beginning of...
And he's probably gonnalisten to this later on,
but at the beginning ofhe and I's relationship,
we didn't really heareach other super well.
And then having the ability
(05:22):
to have conversations likethat now, I don't wanna cry,
is so meaningful to me becauseit has just connected us
in such a different way.
- And he trained you up tothese hard conversations
and you trained him up.
- Exactly, exactly, I like that, yeah.
We really helped, we reallytaught each other a lot
and that's been really huge.
(05:44):
And so he, yeah, he guidedme into that and then also,
he talked to me a lotabout the conversations
about how there is sucha need for diversity
and inclusion within banking,especially when it comes
to discriminatory practicestowards even giving out loans
and then things regarding that.
(06:04):
So he gives me a lot ofknowledge in that sector-
- Have you read, The Sum of Us?
- I haven't.
Need to?- Check it out.
- Okay, The Sum of Us.
- Yeah, the economics and politics of race
and it's been a huge book inthe last little bit of time,
but I think you'll digit, The Sum of Us, yeah.
- Interesting.- I'll write it down.
(06:24):
- Yeah, and I was about to ask that.
- I'll text you.
So you're a student, butyou've already worked for banks
and you have a band andyou care about food.
And you care about feedingyour soul and your human body
and you care about a lot.
(06:45):
So when we're talking aboutanding in this podcast,
it's like Aliyah cares about this
and cares about this and...
So is there a care-o-meterthat gets depleted
or is it all just all cares?
- I think that's kind of more...
It's just like...
I am honestly all overthe place at some points,
(07:06):
but that's what I loved whenyou sent me the questions
and focused in on anding.
When I showed my bestfriend, Jess, the question,
she was like, "This is so you it's crazy."
- Did you identify though as an ander
before you saw the questions?
- I didn't identify as an ander
'cause I don't even think Irealized I could even take
(07:27):
that on, I don't evenknow, but it's all I do.
Yeah, so I guess thecare-o-meter, I think it goes
through a lot of things thataffect honestly are my classes.
Whatever classes I'm in atthe moment, I'm full throttle,
going into that, full careto this topic right now.
And then the other thingsI guess go down a little
(07:48):
and it's not that I care about them less,
I guess it's less on my mind.
But I do get overwhelmed at points.
I do get overwhelmed at points.
- But is that just a natural?
Has that always been likeyou really care about that,
then you really care about couture?
If something's in front ofyou, it is in front of you
and you are doing it.
So we can't teach...
(08:08):
If this podcast we're gonnatry to teach people how
to care more, is it justlistening to you that's gonna help
or do you have aprescription for caring more
or is it just really show up in the lane?
Or is it just so innate to you
you don't even know what the alchemy is?
- I think it is pretty innate,
but I also think it is showing up.
And that's a lot ofthings that I talk about,
(08:31):
even with my friends when I'mtalking about social justice
and what it even looks liketo begin to get into it.
If you're like, okay,hey, I wanna be a part
of the conversation, how do I get there?
And that's what I always say,I'm just like, just show up.
Bring your body there, getyour body to a position
or a place or anenvironment where you think
(08:54):
that you might gain someknowledge from someone, show up.
So I think that that'sthe most important thing
'cause I also think for me personally
I show up and whatever it is,
I'm gonna go full throttle into it.
And I understand that not everyone has
that same personality trait, I guess.
But I still think it's justso powerful to show up.
(09:14):
- When you show up around food,
I show up for food likeordering or I show up for food
in washing the dishes.
You don't just show up to eat, to sustain.
You're like how can I heal theplanet while feeding myself,
while making sure that everybody knows
that this particularlegume has a feminist,
ecofeminist perspective andwe're gonna mix and match these.
(09:37):
Talk to me about this 'causeI really like microwave
and I'm good at grilling,but I don't know how
to do the things I care about with food.
- Okay, so I love this question
because I am crazy about food.
I am crazy about it.
And it's always been somethingreally important to me
(09:59):
because my mom has always cooked.
She is crazy.
You know, she's the kind of person
who just opens up the fridge
and just you see the ingredients-
- No recipe needed.
- No recipe.
- And that didn't intimidate you
'cause my mom's a really goodcook and it just made me go,
oh, that's cool, that's your thing.
- No, I don't think it intimidated me
because of how much she invited me in.
(10:20):
And now I'm not gonna lieI can do the same thing.
I can open up the fridgeand cook whatever.
But it's because sheinvited me in so much.
When I would wanna cook with her,
I'd be like, all right,so how much of this, Mom?
And she's just like, "Well,just however much you think."
And I'm like, okay, all right, girl.
And if it didn't turn outgood, she would never be like,
(10:42):
oh gosh, so bad!- Too much cardamom.
- Yeah, you're never welcomein the kitchen again.
She's just like, "Yeah, girl, whatever."
It's like life, sometimesyou mess up in the kitchen,
but you keep going, you keeplearning and you keep growing.
My mom and I talk on the phone every day.
I've learned so much fromher and I think I am now
in a position where shelearns so much from me.
(11:04):
And it's great because sheand I are having conversations
like you and I are having,all day, every day.
Not in a harmful way whatsoever.
Always in a food is fueland good food is fuel
and also food doesn't have tobe and cooking doesn't have
to be something that'sfar out, not for you
and not for anyone.
(11:25):
And there are things thateveryone can do in the kitchen
on every single level of income as well
that I think isn't talked about a lot.
And I think that that's reallyharmful to a lot of people
because then you grow upwith a lot of food patterns
that just aren't reallysustainable for yourself
and then those habits form over time
and then it forms just liketoxicities within your body
(11:49):
that affect your mentaland just everything.
I mean, your gut is everything.
- And if you wanna trust your gut,
you gotta take care of that gut.
- You gotta take care of the gut, exactly.
So I think that that'ssomething I grew up around.
I think something that hasreally helped me understand a lot
of people weren't invitedinto the kitchen like this
(12:10):
when they were younger.
A lot of people's parentsweren't even in the kitchen.
And I was very fortunate to have a mom
who really made it a priority,
we're having a home-cooked meal-
- I'm feeling guilt andshame right now about myself,
but I'm gonna trust thatit's gonna work out.
- No, no guilt, no shame, no shame.
(12:30):
- No, it's beautiful.
- Food feeds my soul as well as my body.
And so I try to makeit my little art piece.
I love to give it some form ofpresentation or make it fun.
- Not mac and cheese out ofthe pot, you don't do that.
Okay, this is gonna goreally well for me later.
(Erika laughs)
(12:51):
It's really hot though whenyou eat it out of a pot
by the stove.
And it tastes better,which maybe if I ate it
at room temperature, Iwould taste the toxicity
of the mac and cheese andthen I could trust my gut.
- And then you could, yeah.- Slowing down.
- I won't even lie, I love abox of Kraft Mac and Cheese
when I'm really craving it.
And that's okay, like I'mtalking about these cold foods
(13:11):
and everything, I don't wannasay I'm perfect with food.
- No, no, no, none of us are, right?
- Exactly, exactly, but also something
that's taught me so muchabout whole foods is...
So I garden for this man named Carl
and he lives five minutes from campus.
I mean, he's just one ofthe most amazing characters
(13:32):
in my life.
He has this massive extensive garden.
So I go probably once or twice a week.
During the summer, I goevery day or every other day.
- But you get in the dirt.
- In the dirt and he loves it.
He thinks it's so funny how I'm like,
Carl, look at this big worm!
Or I freak out about weirdbugs and stuff like that.
(13:54):
And he thinks it's just hilarious.
But having conversations with him
about food has been really interesting.
So he donates probably 100pounds of squash, crazy amounts
of tomatoes, everything like that
to the food bank every single harvest-
- So you see that as part ofanother arrow to DEI with food.
- Exactly, so that's been another thing-
- So there's production,there's the transmission,
(14:17):
there's so many different routes
into DEI thinking with food.
- Right, exactly, andalso this is something
that my mom and I have alot of conversations about,
but it's been so great havingsomeone like Carl in my life
inspired me to say, oh, here's ways
that we can be inclusive with food.
We can teach people also howto grow their own gardens
(14:38):
or hopefully, if there'ssomething at the food bank,
you can cook vegetablesin so many different ways
that's so easy, so delicious
and so fulfilling and simple.
- That was the thingthat I had been learning
in post divorcee world.
I'm like, oh, olive oil, salt and pepper,
it's not that hard.
But prepping, having the time.
And I think that's another part
(14:58):
of the whole DEI conversation
and the feminist conversationis, how do we make time?
How do we make time forfood, how do we make time
not just to eat it, but toreally prepare it in a way
that feels not like a choreand that is when we want
to be in a different space of mind
that doesn't feel like work?
So how does it not feel like work
and how do you bring joy toit so that you can participate
(15:21):
with your food and with your families
or with your communities ina way that feels different?
It's super powerful.
- So I think when Idon't have time to cook,
I always have something in my refrigerator
that's a quick prep andI can cook on the go.
When I have time to prep,I make sure I do so,
then when I'm in the crazyschool week and I don't have time
(15:43):
to get in the kitchen andchill and play my music
and cook and stuff likethat, I still have something
in the fridge that I know I can rely on
that I can cook really quickly.
But then another ways that Ithink interacting with food
in a way that doesn'tmake it feel like a chore
is cooking for my friends,for my people around me.
(16:06):
Food is my love, if youcan't tell, food's my love.
- It's your love language.
- It's my love language.
- Eating food is my love language.
- So a lot of my friends are like that.
- And I'll do all the dishes.
I will do all the dishes becauseI am so grateful for that.
And I know how to stop and slow down
when someone else has prepared a meal.
The only way I can get myself to slow down
(16:27):
and to make it pretty is Ihave an incredible friend
in Scotland who is really good, like you,
food love language.
I will have to make a plate
that would photography worthy for Katie.
So that's the only way I'll doit is I have to take pictures
'cause I wouldn't do it just for me,
I gotta do it for a photo on Sundays.
(16:48):
- Well, it's whateverfloats your goat, I guess.
- I don't know if wewant our goats floated.
- I know, we don't, I guess, actually.
We actually sang a song aboutfloating goats at the camp
that I went to for a ton ofyears, anyway, such a tangent.
- It's so good.
- But yeah, so another way,one last thing I did wanna say,
so my best friend, Jesse,
(17:08):
she's an integrated physiology major
and I'm internationalaffairs and ethnic studies.
And she loves cooking as well,but I'll take the reins a lot
of times if I'm cooking for us.
She'll just be chopping whatever.
And this is really important times for us
because we learn so much from each other.
(17:29):
She teaches me so much from her classes.
- You're study buddies in the kitchen.
- We're study buddies in thekitchen, but she's studying
for her exam by explainingto me what she's learning
and I'm studying for myexams explaining to her.
And that kind of interaction
in the kitchen is I live for it!
(17:50):
She's in this exercisephysiology class right now
and she's just like we haveall these conversations
about activity and howdifferent kinds of activity
affects the body and I'm learning so much
about different pathways and things
that I would never havelearned in my classes.
And then I get to teach herabout social justice stuff
and development in Africa
(18:11):
and all the things that I'm learning.
So it's great, that isanother way interacting
with food is just huge.
- When you talk aboutdevelopment in Africa
and then where your lenshas shifted to see that as,
oh, we might mean colonizing Africa.
I think about your friend who's in I Phy,
(18:33):
she might be talkingabout movement pathways
that colonize the body butwouldn't have had that language
without the conversation in the kitchen.
So I think about how ballethas colonized my body
in a particular verticaldimension and made it harder
for me to drop into theweight of swing dance
when I first started.
So there's a colonizing of the body.
Someone who's studying I Phymight not get that language
(18:54):
unless they're choppingvegetables with you and talking
about the difference betweendevelopment and coloniality.
Do you all chart those ahamoments with each other,
like, oh my God, thatactually fits in my world?
Or does it just happen
and then you're justsharing the same lexicons?
- Because I think also thoseare the kinds of conversations
(19:16):
that inspire me on the dailyand that's the kind of stuff
that I really wannatalk about with people.
And I always am.
I'm always, hey, let's talk about this
and then we can connect inmultiple different ways.
And even another one of myroommates is a psychology major.
And so she knows so much aboutthe mental side of how a lot
(19:38):
of the things that I talkabout with discrimination
and how that affectspeople in the community.
And then she's like,
"Well hey, this is howit affects you mentally."
And so it's all...
It's making those kinds ofconnections that I live for.
- The planet's gonna be okay,the planet's gonna be okay.
When I think about you andyour friends at a dinner party,
I just think the planet is gonna be okay.
- You know, I'm blessed, Ihave a great group of people
(20:02):
around me that wanna hear me,which I think is just so huge
as we talked about just a bit ago.
It's so...
Having a circle of peoplethat are inspired by me
and that I can constantlybe inspired by is just...
But anyways...(Aliyah laughs)
- We could keep going and going,
but I think I can't keep going and going.
I think it's time for our speed round.
(20:24):
So in the Quick and Dirty,this is our flash round,
I'm gonna ask you questions,try not to think too much,
just go with it, just step in.
All right, so this I'mgonna give you a topic
and you need to say the first word
ideally that contains anand that comes to your mind.
So if I say best andingmeal, the Sam and Sam
from Audrey Jane's PizzaGarage, you would say...
(20:47):
- Best anding meal?
Oh my gosh, why is this so hard for me?
- Squash and squash.
- Yeah, squash...
Oh, miso butternut squashsoup, made that the other day.
Crazy, never thoughtI would put some umami
and some butternut squash
and make it Asian peanutystyle as well, and.
(21:08):
- And, awesome, I love that, okay.
Oh, next sheet, okay, best...
So okay, pause, best andingmeal, I wanna eat that
and I'm just thinking about that now.
- Especially if you makehomemade focaccia with it.
- You did not just say homemade focaccia.
Focaccia, all right,you're on a road trip.
(21:30):
Okay, you're driving backfrom the South to here,
it's a long drive.
You're at the dark part of whereyou're getting droopy lids,
you know that terrible part.
- I've made this drive so many times.
- Okay, so what is thealbum that has and in it
that you would put onfor that second wind?
(21:50):
- Graceland by Paul Simon.
- I love how you got the andinside the land of Graceland.
You did that.
- Look at me, we are geniuses.
- We're geniuses, okay, I also have to say
that my partner had never heard that album
because they were born that year
and I had to play Graceland for them.
And I was like, you thinkVampire Weekend did a thing,
(22:11):
no, they took it from PaulSimon who took it from Africa.
- Yes, literally, butthat's why it's an and.
- Yeah, it's an and.
And he also did bring up...
- He did, but I think thatit also brings in an and
in a conversation thatyou can have about it.
- Yeah, while you're listening.
You can be like, oh, allyou Vampire Weekend fans,
if you're listening to Graceland,
let's talk about what'sactually happening.
(22:32):
- I mean, that's how you start.
You're like, oh hey, hear theseAfrican tones in this music,
let's talk about neocolonialismin Africa, boom, and.
- And now you're awake on the road trip.
Okay, the best evening with friends,
this and this with your friends.
- Food and card games.
- Food and card games.
- Honestly, I'm reallycompetitive, Trivial Pursuit,
(22:54):
any trivia game...
- It's happening.- Or Catan.
(Aliyah laughs)- Catan?
Okay, now, that doesn't work.
Okay, a class title you couldn'trefuse that had and in it?
- A class title I couldn't refuse?
Africa and Development.- Africa and Development?
(23:14):
- Yeah.- Who taught it?
- Oh, Cohan, but I'm alsotaking another class on Africa
and Development and Dr.Osborne, amazing, amazing human,
game-changing, literally wow!
Senior seminar class, justget to sit in a circle
with 14 other awesome students
(23:36):
and just have the best conversations,
the most insightful conversations.
- Oh, I'm feeling really jelly,that's beautiful, though.
- I'm like, please, canthis class go on forever?
- Yeah, that's amazing.
It sounds like you have a ton of these,
but an ander you admire.
- An ander I admire?
(23:56):
Carl and my mom.
My mom for sure, I guessI just didn't wanna give
the basic answer, but my mom.
- No one has said momyet, so you're winning.
- Oh really, oh, my mom's an ander.
My mom taught me how to and.
She taught me that, yeah, love that woman.
You would love her!
- I'm gonna love her, I'm gonna love her.
Okay, last thing, on eachepisode, we ask our guests
(24:18):
to offer up something like you would say
at a graduation commencement and may the
or and I or and as you go forth.
What would you say that starts with and
and would lead the nextgeneration to the next?
- I guess as you progress forward,
(24:42):
don't forget to bring people with you.
As you go forward, don't forgetto bring people with you.
- I wanna go with you.
- Yeah, come on, I'll cook.
(Aliyah laughs)
(light music)
- The Ampersand is written andproduced by me, Erika Randall
(25:04):
and Tim Grassley.
If there are folks you'd liketo hear from on The Ampersand,
do please email us at asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composedand performed by Nelson Walker,
a CU Boulder alum,brilliant cellist composer
and a fantastic dancer.
Episodes are recorded at Interplay studios
(25:25):
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall andthis is The Ampersand.
(light music)
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