February 6, 2023 • 31 mins
In an era of specialization, many of us feel pressure to pick a thing—one skill, interest or passion that sets you apart. This one thing characterizes our identities, the way we talk, how we perceive ourselves and the stories we tell. But what happens when your one thing doesn’t pan out as planned and you need to pivot? That’s the story of our first guest in The Ampersand’s inaugural season. Hayley Muth graduated from the University of Colorado Boulder as a dance performance major, then pursued a career in dance, pivoted to a career in technology and is now a product manager at Instagram. Hear the lessons she learned as she uncovered and wove together these facets.
Music by Nelson Walker.
Written and produced by Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
Episodes recorded at Interplay Recording in Boulder, CO.
Excerpt of Matthew Wigton's "Old Guard," performed by Wicked Cinema, used in the introduction.
Check out Jared Angle's ballet brillance.
Official captions coming soon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
(orchestra tuning)
- I imagine walking down the center aisle
with Hayley Muth at Lincoln Center
to see the New York City Ballet.
We're late of course,
but Hayley's laughterand hushed excuse me's
as we make our way across the front row,
disarm even the toughest New Yorkers.
(00:24):
Just as we take our seats,the concert hall goes quiet.
(classical music)
Jared Angle, one of the world'sgreatest ballet dancers,
drifts across the stage,
mesmerizing us with his silky mastery.
And then without warning,he performs a scintillating
and impossible grand jete thatcatches the collective breath
of every audience member.
(00:44):
Everyone except Hayley who roars, "Yeah,"
like she's at a Knicks game.
Hayley at the ballet has begun.
I can't imagine walking with Hayley
into Instagram's corporateheadquarters in New York,
where she works as a product manager.
(01:07):
There in the open office concept
with foliage climbing up thewalls and glowing neon art,
I see a contrast in so many ways
to this talented dancerfrom Boulder, Colorado,
who once worked every part ofher body to master her craft
and now sits in rooms collaborating
to create Instagram's latest product.
Hayley has managed tothrive in both contexts
by recognizing differentparts of her identity,
(01:29):
that of a dancer, a creative thinker
and someone who joyfully adapts.
It's all part of what she calls,
"The Venn diagram within herself."
(upbeat music)
On "The Ampersand", wecall this bringing together
of the impossible, the alchemy of AND-ing.
(01:50):
Together we'll hear stories ofhumans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunction junction kind of way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
the way to speak the beautiful
when you intentionally letthe soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks,
(02:11):
"What is it you plan todo with your one wild
and precious life?"
How I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating and collaborating,
it reminds me to replace a singular idea
of what I think I should become
with a full sensoryverb about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall.
- And this is Hayley Muth.
(02:32):
- On "The Ampersand".
(upbeat music)
- God, that's so interesting.
I think the funny waythat it resonates with me
has to do with what Iwas just saying about
how it's a Venn diagram for me.
I'm like professionalwoman, but also a dancer
(02:53):
and it overlaps in some funny ways.
Like if I'm stretching on aZoom call and I can't hide it,
but I have been so pulled
into the professional women's circle
for especially the past four or five years
that AND-ing, I'm likepoisoned by the corporate talk.
I'm like, "Why Erika, youmean work-life balance?"
(03:14):
- No, no!
No, no! There is no work-life balance.
This is a fable, a myth sold to us.
I wanna know about AND-ing.
- Yeah, exactly.
But that's the thing is like, it's not,
it's like my whole life Itry to keep it in balance.
So that's kind of how it sits with me.
(03:35):
It's very important to methat I have my dance time
every week as physicallypainful as it is becoming
and I have to likereally keep that boundary
and call it work-life balanceto the corporate people.
- Part of what's interesting to me
is how you can live in corporate
and be incorporated in your body.
(03:55):
- Yeah.
- So this corporal word thatsits in both of those words
is super weird.
And I wanna hear how do you navigate that?
- I have to keep a line.
Some of it is a bit performativein the corporate world
'cause I'll just saylike "I have a conflict"
and like actually I am justhopping out to ballet class
(04:16):
or I just took a beginningtap class for six weeks
so I had to leave early every Friday.
So it's like it from the outside,
it doesn't look like AND-ing.
It's like actually over therewith the corporate people
it breaks their brains a little bit
and they're like work-life balance.
(04:36):
Yes, okay, block your calendar
and then you go do your other life stuff.
But for me, it's like so who I am
and I cannot separate it.
And the creativity thatI learned in school
helps so much every single day.
(04:56):
And it's not,
like everybody learnscritical thinking in college,
but I think we got to learncritical creative thinking.
- Yes.
- That to me is like AND-ing.
- Yes. A hundred percent.
- And that it's like that kind of thinking
I can bring into corporateworld quite a bit.
- And I would think they want that right?
(05:17):
When you're imagining new product,
when you are trying to beahead of the next next.
Improvisational thinking in the body,
you don't even knowwhat you're about to do
while you're doing it.
And that's kind of where your brain
slash the boundaries haveto get pushed out to.
And so I would think it would be a natural
for a dancer to be in the work
(05:38):
that you're doing in some ways.
But I also hear you in the way
that it is seen as other in your world.
- Yeah. Yeah.
But they don't realizelike I can't even remember
if I heard this from you or someone else.
It might've even been like AmyKenney at Boulder Body Wear
where I worked, was itcalled Boulder Body Work?
Yeah, I worked for her for four years
(05:58):
and she was like, "Always hire a dancer."
I agree. Always hire a dancer.
You are thinking ahead, you'recreative, you're dedicated,
you're a hard worker, you take feedback.
Like dancers are super-humans,
Martha Graham, athletes of God, but also,
you know, like intellectsof God too, I swear.
(06:22):
Yeah, I agree.
I think it's like they don'tknow what they're getting
when they hire a dancer.
I don't work with anyone else
who has any kind of creative background.
They come from business, MBAs,
computer science, et cetera.
And I think they geta little uncomfortable
in like the uncertainty and the riffing.
(06:44):
- Did you have that confidence
when you went into tech worlds?
Did you have that dancer confidence?
Did you have all that named
and all that knowingabout AND-ing in your body
when you started moving
into these kind of corporate systems?
- Oh man. No.
I mean my life has been really weird.
I don't think that I'vebeen decisive or intentional
(07:06):
or in charge until very recently
'cause it was a lot ofreaction and survival
and let's just left turn out of necessity,
like we've gotta gofigure out something else.
So I think it took me a long time
and I wouldn't say that impostersyndrome ever plagued me
(07:26):
in the early days.
Now it certainly does,
but in the early days it wasmore like I was an explorer
in a new world and what do we do here?
What are the rules?
How can I? who am I?
You want me to work for you?
Okay, what do you want meto do? Yeah, I'll do that.
Like I said, hire dancers'cause they're like,
"Yeah, I'll do it."
(07:47):
- Even though others don'tcome from the arts necessarily,
do you see AND-ing at play
when there's something that's working?
- You know, it's so funny.
That's like fully what productmanagement is actually.
Product management isabout the intersection
of design data and engineering.
(08:07):
You cannot do one without the other.
But what's fun is like I comefrom none of those worlds,
so I'm like hello, let meadd another little circle.
So already the AND-ing magic is happening
and that is probably why I ended up
actually really liking this career path.
(08:28):
I mean we can talk about that more later
'cause is there an existentialcrisis underneath it?
Absolutely.
But I just saw that it'skind of like making a soup
and there's just all theseingredients flying around in it
and throwing in another typeof brain doesn't hurt at all.
It helps.
We should have more diversityof thought. Absolutely.
(08:50):
- Yes. Testify to that.
I think that's what thegoal of our world here
in this podcast bubbleis to spark folks to say,
Hey, I and, I'm into that.
I'm into this and that,oh wait, I'm into this,
that and the other thing.
And that that creates newideas that maybe, I don't know,
(09:10):
that just weren't valued
or that weren't seen as ofvalue inside of oneself.
So it's like secretly a self-help podcast
because it's like a way to help folks
get through this existential crisis.
Whether it means falling more in love
with what they're doing orchanging lanes to something else.
Because you can and your way into that.
And that's what I see in you
is you came to New York as a dancer
and then you say there wasn'ta lot of intentionality
(09:32):
but you always, it seems, said yes.
And then you always kickedass and kept AND-ing
or might see a gesture ofmaybe didn't always kick ass,
maybe failed, maybe did some failing.
Did we learn from the failing?
Like what were some and failures?
- Woohoo. Did we ever learn from failing.
Yeah.
(09:53):
I think it's way more complex
when you zoom in, but zoomed out,
my identity journey waslike I was only a dancer
and then I only worked in techand now I'm finding balance.
But the reason I think that the balance
is coming to me now later in life
is because all of the thingswere already in there.
(10:16):
So I think being comfortablewith being more than one thing
is a very new revelation to me.
A big turning pointfor me actually I think
was after the skirr, the lane change
and the oh my god I need ajob and health insurance,
'cause I just tore everyligament and tendon in my ankle.
(10:36):
I abstained from going to shows.
I was like, I,
'cause obviouslydepression, I was destroyed
and I had been a depressedperson my entire life anyways.
So put that type of adversityon top of your dream
and your perceived single identity
and you're just destroyed.
So I was like, I cannot even go to a show.
(10:58):
I won't do it.
And I would go maybe tolike some downtown stuff
and I'd be like, "Ugh,I know all these people.
I was at that audition, I didn't get it.
She didn't deserve it."
And it was toxic energyleaking outta my pores.
So I was like, can't, won't, need a break.
So that's when I shifted toquote unquote one identity.
(11:21):
I'm just gonna go work in tech.
Sure, it's like cute thatI was a dancer or whatever.
Worked at ClassPass, thefounder was a dancer.
There were some of my roots still there.
Got a free unlimitedmembership. Loved that.
Did I go to Pilates every single day? Yes.
So some of it was still there.
Started taking hip hopclasses with my coworkers
(11:42):
and they were like, "You're really good."
I'm like, yeah, all right,let's not talk about it.
- Wow. You really buried that.
- Buried, buried it. Yeah.
- Even though it could have
or did it still help you atwork and help you ascend?
- My, you know what, I didn'tknow it but absolutely.
Dancing to me is problem solving.
(12:02):
How do I get from point Ain space to point B in space
in given amount of time
and we have powerhouseproblem solving brains.
So I really, really tamped it down
'cause I was hurt andI felt like a traitor.
It was a dancer who leftdance for a desk job,
(12:23):
the worst thing you could possibly do.
But I started to healbecause honestly again,
like given my life andwhat I had been through,
there were certain thingsthat I really needed,
like a stable paycheck changed my life,
absolutely changed my life.
- Yeah. That's not selling out.
Eating and having insurance,
I think that's a challenge for artists.
(12:46):
- I was gonna say, you know what else?
Health insurance, that was game changer.
Also like letting loose a little bit.
Oh I don't have to get up fordance class in the morning
so I'm gonna go out, drink a lot.
Go dancing quite often. Yeah, totally.
And I think I started to likeactually heal a little bit
(13:07):
by like busting myself open a bit.
And then I really started to heal
and the dancer circlecame back out of the fog
when I met another person at ClassPass
who was just like a diehard ballet fan.
Like had been a dancerwhen she was a teenager
and she was just like,"Let's go see Swan Lake.
(13:31):
New York City Ballet,Sarah Mearns is dancing."
I'm obsessed with her to this day.
And I was like, yeah, let's do it.
We went, we treated it likeit was our sports team.
We like shouted when Tiler Peck
did this incredibletriple down to the knee
'cause we were in orchestra, too.
We were like, "Yes!"
And like I can't eventell you how much she,
(13:54):
and that performance andall of that just healed me.
And then I realized,
this is really gonna make you laugh,
just like a ballerina at heart.
You know? That's just.
- I know.- I'm sorry, I tried.
- I know.
You can take you outta Boulderand put you back in New York,
but you can't take theballet out of the girl.
- Cannot. You cannot.
So I just became like superduper New York City Ballet
(14:17):
die-hard fan.
I know, still, I meanthis was probably what,
five, six years ago.
Now, like I'm a member, I ama subscriber, all of that.
I know them like my sportsteam and everything.
And that healed me
and brought the dancer selfback into my life so much.
(14:37):
And it was time that it needed.
I mean you're right, itwas always all in there.
But I think there's no coincidence
that when dancer self cameback into my life, my career,
my other part started to take off.
It was like power up. Okay.
Authentic self, form, assemble.
(15:00):
- Oh, I love that, Hayley.
And so this is what'sso incredible, right?
When you're studying dance as an undergrad
and then you move to the big bad
and you're gonna take it over
and you're gonna just eat that apple
and just get it all andthat it doesn't go exactly.
And then it goes worse than not exactly.
And then it returns from the fog
and then it's there for you, right?
(15:23):
And you're there for it.
And then now you have thiscapacity that is limitless
and that is in this like justthis space of what's possible.
So what do you see is possible for Hayley?
How do you see yourselfAND-ing into the future?
What do you think?
- Yeah. God, such a good question.
My theme for this yearis absolutely think big,
(15:45):
expand yourself, and, and, and, and, and,
what else, what else, what else.
Push the boundaries.
And I think, it wasprobably earlier this year,
I started calling myself a creative person
for the first time.
Yeah, your jaw just dropped.
I know.
Probably for the first time ever.
(16:07):
Or at least since college. Yeah.
- Okay. At least since Iwas your teacher, she says.
- I mean maybe, but.
The Pashmina.
- With the team Pashmina.
- Maybe, but I don't reallyremember myself like as a quote,
I don't know,
maybe it's just I didn'tuse that label something.
But that never, andcertainly as a teenager
(16:27):
when I was in that balletepisode one season one of like,
okay, I'm a ballerina.
That to me is like technical.
- Yeah. You were a technician.
- Problem solving. I was a technician.
- Oh, you were an engineer.
- Yeah, totally.
Yes. Of the body, of the space.
The pointe shoes.
I didn't ever think ofmyself as an artist.
(16:48):
Or is ballet artistic?Uh yeah. Oh my God, yes.
I am so passionate aboutit and I see that now
and I was an artist,
but that's just never been something
in the front of my mind.
So I think going into the future,
I have this powerfulword to add to my stew,
(17:08):
which is like creativity.
I'm a creative person.
I hope that that even expands into more,
like sure I have a cool rhythm now of,
I've got my professional lady circle,
I've got my absolute balletdie-hard fan nerd circle.
But I wanna add more.
And I think now that I feellike a creative person,
(17:31):
it's not just one creative outlet.
It was baby steps, you know?
It was like, okay, my creative outlet
will be going to ballet class
expressing myself with the music.
'Cause that just like gives me chills
even thinking about it,that is my soul right there.
But there's other ways to express as well.
(17:51):
And I am, like you said,
I haven't been called a writer in forever,
like a writing human being.
I'm trying to bring thatback into my life now, too.
And I really like want a third career
as a novelist to just really do.
- Okay. I wanna read that book already.
Sign me up because, Hayley, I remember.
No, just the way thatyou always have had this,
(18:16):
kind of hilariously dark sense of humor
that you've held inside of hard times,
hard things, but there's been humor to it.
There's been a way that it kind of just,
there's like an engine,
like this, the edge that you have
that maybe does feel morecomfortable in New York
than in Boulder.
(18:37):
I love how when we were talking pre-show,
you talked about being a transplant,
from Boulder to New York,
and you said something abouthow Boulder felt to you.
- Yeah, yeah.
Boulder was, I was, yeah,
I was the organ that wasrejected from the body.
(18:58):
- Just even that.
- Incompatible.
- Yeah. It was not compatible.
And just the way that youput the body and language,
humor and creativity together.
That's it to me. That's everything.
And that's where I spark tohumans who have that capacity.
It doesn't have to,
you're quickfire, you're rapid fire,
similar to somebody else I know.
- Yes. Where do I get that from?
(19:19):
- I dunno, maybe you learnedfrom it from me, kid.
But I don't think so.
I think that was always in you
and we can all operatein different tempos,
but I think it's from that space
of what are you curious about?
And you talked aboutcuriosity and creativity
and that's the stuff, right?
Like that's the really good stuff
that turns out the next andthe new and the not normal.
(19:41):
And thank goodness for that.
- Totally.
You've gotta have, I mean,
you box yourself inwhen you're not curious.
And I think you add more circles
to your now-growing Venn diagram
when you're curious about stuff
and you expand who you are
and that's just life.
(20:01):
Uh oh, the existential crisis is coming,
but I think that's just life.
Did you see that? The dark cloud just.
- I didn't see a dark cloud actually.
I didn't see crisis.
I saw like wonder,
I saw that there's thesky kind of part a bit.
- Oh, okay good.- That you just keep, yeah,
like what if it wasn't a crisis?
What if it's just a curious?
- Right? Yeah.
(20:22):
'Cause we're not reallytrying to solve anything.
We're just trying to live
and incorporate allthese sides of ourselves
and possibilities.
- That's right. And so then that.
Woo! See? Hmm.
I'm feeling so goodtalking to you, my friend.
Okay, I have a question for you though.
Are there ways that you and,when you wish you would only?
(20:44):
- It's the being present stuff.
Like I can't I'm sure, everysingle person that you talk
to will say this,
'cause I think the AND-ing isreally rich on large scale.
Everything we just talked about.
More creativity, moreskills, more vocations,
more things that celebratedifferent sides of yourself.
(21:06):
So I think that, absolutely.
But then like day to day,
oh, we all just get so mad at ourselves
for picking up the phone
and going on Instagram,where ironically I work,
like I'm aware, I'm aware.
It's just so frustratingthat the attention economy
(21:27):
is just really frustrating.
And I know that's a very generic answer
and I'm sure that everybodyyou talked to says that,
but that's one reason though,I love going to ballet class.
Never ever am I so present.
Music, again, the problemsolving, the placement,
the, oh, the pelvic floor, okay.
The rotator. Okay.
(21:48):
The shoulder. That's just like everything.
It's so hard.
It's just so complicatedthat it helps me focus
'cause just, I rarely getthat outside, out, in my life,
just every day, you know?
And part of it is like,
maybe even the dark side orthe downside to curiosity
(22:09):
is like a typical chaos moment for me
where I should be OR-ingor should be ONLY-ing,
rather AND-ing as I'm likesitting at my computer,
like should kind of be payingattention to this meeting
or maybe should kind of bedoing a single task elsewhere.
(22:29):
And then I'm like, ooh,you know what I could do?
Wait, I'm gonna look up this.
I have an idea. Wait, what if I did that?
Okay, I have another idea.
Okay, maybe later we'regonna do this. Okay.
And then next thing you know,
I've like bought tickets to"The Cursed Child" on Broadway,
which did happen, I saw that last night.
Yeah, it doesn't alwaysend me up in a bad place.
(22:52):
I will say that 'cause I like to do things
and I like to experience things
and sometimes you just can't contain
that moment of inspirationthat may hit whenever.
So it's like, ugh.
It's still just likeI annoy myself with it
and I wish we could all find more focus,
even like going to shows.
(23:13):
Yeah, I'm so passionate abouttaking that time to go see it.
And there have been somelately where I'm like, why?
I just missed her whole little variation.
I came all the way to Lincoln Center.
- Another story on topof what you were seeing?
That palimpsest that can happen
in live performance or live time?
(23:35):
- Yeah and maybe even a bad one, too,
like thinking about a toughmeeting I had today at work
or something and I was like,
ah, but wait, she justlanded like so many turns
and I think I missed it, ugh.
So I need to meditate.
- Yeah.- Clearly.
- But I also see that there
are those moving meditations, right.
I think taking classes, oneof them from me teaching,
(23:56):
drops me into my presence.
Recently I've been biking to work
and I was telling producer Tim
that leaving my phone in abag away from my human body
is just the best gift.
And just riding a bike to work
instead of making five phone calls.
So as much as I'm a fan ofthe and, it's real to only.
(24:19):
- Feel very, very overwhelming. Yeah.
- Yeah. It can.
I do like your image of itfrom this meta perspective,
this larger perspective from the way
that we're thinking about workor maybe a new special sauce,
then we wanna be AND-ing.
But when can we be where we are?
Okay, now we're gonna do a thing.
(24:40):
We're gonna do a thing.
We're gonna do a quick and dirty
and it has to be quick, butit doesn't have to be dirty.
Are you ready?
I need you to give me the first five words
that come into your mindthat have and in them.
- Okay.
Why rock and roll? What?
- Well you said rock androll. So it had and in it.
- I know, but why?
(25:02):
- This is just a thing. This is, go.
- Top and bottom, left and right,
good and bad, up and down.
It's all directional.
It's spatial.
- Okay. I love it.
I love it. This is so not how.
No, I love it.
I love it. Spatial.
Okay, now to rock and roll.
Give me the name of a band
or some names of bandsthat have and in them.
(25:29):
(both laughing)
I'm seeing one of themtonight at Red Rocks.
- You are, what is it?
- Iron & Wine.
- Iron & Wine!
I just wanted a hint.
There's one, Iron & Wine.
- There's a hint. Okay,now you give me one.
- Oh my god.
(25:52):
And oh, Christine andThe Queens, my favorite.
- Boom.
Boom.
- Absolute favorite.
- That was not quick or dirty.
Next one's gotta be faster.
Okay, we're going intothe AND-ing wardrobe.
Okay, you're putting on anoutfit you're gonna wear,
mm and mm, what are you wearing?
- Oh my God. I'm gonnawear shorts and heels.
(26:13):
- Yes, queen. Okay.
I wanna know about foodsor beverage combos.
Food or beverage combos that you create
that are specific to, you know,
in the Reese's peanut buttercup invention slash world,
Erika with the gummy bears and Chardonnay.
How does Hayley eat her ands?
- Oh, oh, oh my god.
Gummy bears and Chardonnay is good.
(26:36):
I think it is.
I hate cooking.
- Did I say cooking?
I said gummy bears and Chardonnay,where green is a fruit.
Think of ordering. Don't think of cooking.
(26:56):
Think of ordering.
You're a New Yorker, what do you get?
- Ordering?- Yeah.
- Well I think french fries and beer
because I have a bro streak.
- I love a bro streak and Ilike french fries and anything.
(27:17):
- Yeah, agree.
I think they pair with everything.
Give me something they don't and with.
- Try it.
Listeners at home right now,
try to imagine a world thatdoesn't pair with french fries.
Nobody can do it.
They can write to Tim the producer
if they think of something.
- Okay, great.
- Tim will take those calls.
(27:38):
Okay. I've got.
Are there other AND-ers orAND-ing that inspires you?
Like I think about LoieFuller being a chemist
and the way she created fabric
and light that was luminescent
and transformed the dance field.
For you, are there folksthat you're working with
or that you see around you
or in the ballet that are AND-ing
(27:58):
in ways that really get you excited?
- Hmm. You know, I think it.
It's been a lot of my friends actually.
It's been, I find the inspiration there.
I like to look at how theyspend their free time.
I've been, quote freetime 'cause it's not,
you have to segment your time,
but it's not actually segmented like that
(28:21):
as deep in your soul.
So I've just been really,really inspired by people
who, in my life, work, grind,whatever you wanna call it,
in New York and then they are writing,
they are painting, theyare writing poetry.
(28:45):
It's really cool.
That, I look to myclose community actually
to be like, oh you all,we contain multitudes.
- Yes, there you are, Universe. Yeah.
- Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
That's just inspired me a lot lately.
- I love that.- Yeah.
(29:06):
- Especially when you'resurrounded by stars
and then when you get to see them actually
as a full-bodied constellation,it's really, it's a gift.
- Yeah.
I have one friend inparticular, she works at,
I mean, she works as like an accountant.
She's also just graduatedfrom NYU with her MFA
in playwriting.
And I'm like, how are you?
She always sends me her plays to write.
(29:26):
I'm like, that's genius.
And you can like crunch a spreadsheet.
Damn, that's inspiring.- Yeah, is is.
Yeah, it is, that's the best.
- Yeah.
- Okay, we are gonna wrap it up here
with a closing question.
- Yes.
- I'm thinking about proverbial advice,
now that we're turning and into a verb.
(29:46):
We're gonna get into this proverb space
of the proverbial advice,the Irish blessing,
the, "And I hope theroad rises to meet you."
Or like the last thing you would say
if you were a graduationspeaker at the end of the litany
and read more poetry orand wear more sunscreen,
what would your blessing be?
(30:06):
- It's something like "Yes and."
Yes and.
When an idea comes up, "Yes and."
Be a "Yes and" person.
Try being a "Yes and" person.
(30:32):
- "The Ampersand" iswritten and produced by me,
Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
If there are folks you'd like to hear from
on "The Ampersand", do please email us
at asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composed and performed
by Nelson Walker, a CU Boulder alum,
brilliant cellist composerand a fantastic dancer.
(30:54):
Episodes are recorded at Interplay Studios
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall
and this is "The Ampersand".
(upbeat music)
(orchestra tuning)
- I imagine walking down the center aisle
with Hayley Muth at Lincoln Center
to see the New York City Ballet.
We're late of course,
but Hayley's laughterand hushed excuse me's
as we make our way across the front row,
disarm even the toughest New Yorkers.
(00:24):
Just as we take our seats,the concert hall goes quiet.
(classical music)
Jared Angle, one of the world'sgreatest ballet dancers,
drifts across the stage,
mesmerizing us with his silky mastery.
And then without warning,he performs a scintillating
and impossible grand jete thatcatches the collective breath
of every audience member.
(00:44):
Everyone except Hayley who roars, "Yeah,"
like she's at a Knicks game.
Hayley at the ballet has begun.
I can't imagine walking with Hayley
into Instagram's corporateheadquarters in New York,
where she works as a product manager.
(01:07):
There in the open office concept
with foliage climbing up thewalls and glowing neon art,
I see a contrast in so many ways
to this talented dancerfrom Boulder, Colorado,
who once worked every part ofher body to master her craft
and now sits in rooms collaborating
to create Instagram's latest product.
Hayley has managed tothrive in both contexts
by recognizing differentparts of her identity,
(01:29):
that of a dancer, a creative thinker
and someone who joyfully adapts.
It's all part of what she calls,
"The Venn diagram within herself."
(upbeat music)
On "The Ampersand", wecall this bringing together
of the impossible, the alchemy of AND-ing.
(01:50):
Together we'll hear stories ofhumans who imagine and create
by colliding their interests.
Rather than thinking ofand as a simple conjunction
in that conjunction junction kind of way,
we will hear stories ofpeople who see and as a verb,
the way to speak the beautiful
when you intentionally letthe soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
As St. Mary Oliver asks,
(02:11):
"What is it you plan todo with your one wild
and precious life?"
How I love this question.
When I'm mothering,creating and collaborating,
it reminds me to replace a singular idea
of what I think I should become
with a full sensoryverb about experiencing.
I'm Erika Randall.
- And this is Hayley Muth.
(02:32):
- On "The Ampersand".
(upbeat music)
- God, that's so interesting.
I think the funny waythat it resonates with me
has to do with what Iwas just saying about
how it's a Venn diagram for me.
I'm like professionalwoman, but also a dancer
(02:53):
and it overlaps in some funny ways.
Like if I'm stretching on aZoom call and I can't hide it,
but I have been so pulled
into the professional women's circle
for especially the past four or five years
that AND-ing, I'm likepoisoned by the corporate talk.
I'm like, "Why Erika, youmean work-life balance?"
(03:14):
- No, no!
No, no! There is no work-life balance.
This is a fable, a myth sold to us.
I wanna know about AND-ing.
- Yeah, exactly.
But that's the thing is like, it's not,
it's like my whole life Itry to keep it in balance.
So that's kind of how it sits with me.
(03:35):
It's very important to methat I have my dance time
every week as physicallypainful as it is becoming
and I have to likereally keep that boundary
and call it work-life balanceto the corporate people.
- Part of what's interesting to me
is how you can live in corporate
and be incorporated in your body.
(03:55):
- Yeah.
- So this corporal word thatsits in both of those words
is super weird.
And I wanna hear how do you navigate that?
- I have to keep a line.
Some of it is a bit performativein the corporate world
'cause I'll just saylike "I have a conflict"
and like actually I am justhopping out to ballet class
(04:16):
or I just took a beginningtap class for six weeks
so I had to leave early every Friday.
So it's like it from the outside,
it doesn't look like AND-ing.
It's like actually over therewith the corporate people
it breaks their brains a little bit
and they're like work-life balance.
(04:36):
Yes, okay, block your calendar
and then you go do your other life stuff.
But for me, it's like so who I am
and I cannot separate it.
And the creativity thatI learned in school
helps so much every single day.
(04:56):
And it's not,
like everybody learnscritical thinking in college,
but I think we got to learncritical creative thinking.
- Yes.
- That to me is like AND-ing.
- Yes. A hundred percent.
- And that it's like that kind of thinking
I can bring into corporateworld quite a bit.
- And I would think they want that right?
(05:17):
When you're imagining new product,
when you are trying to beahead of the next next.
Improvisational thinking in the body,
you don't even knowwhat you're about to do
while you're doing it.
And that's kind of where your brain
slash the boundaries haveto get pushed out to.
And so I would think it would be a natural
for a dancer to be in the work
(05:38):
that you're doing in some ways.
But I also hear you in the way
that it is seen as other in your world.
- Yeah. Yeah.
But they don't realizelike I can't even remember
if I heard this from you or someone else.
It might've even been like AmyKenney at Boulder Body Wear
where I worked, was itcalled Boulder Body Work?
Yeah, I worked for her for four years
(05:58):
and she was like, "Always hire a dancer."
I agree. Always hire a dancer.
You are thinking ahead, you'recreative, you're dedicated,
you're a hard worker, you take feedback.
Like dancers are super-humans,
Martha Graham, athletes of God, but also,
you know, like intellectsof God too, I swear.
(06:22):
Yeah, I agree.
I think it's like they don'tknow what they're getting
when they hire a dancer.
I don't work with anyone else
who has any kind of creative background.
They come from business, MBAs,
computer science, et cetera.
And I think they geta little uncomfortable
in like the uncertainty and the riffing.
(06:44):
- Did you have that confidence
when you went into tech worlds?
Did you have that dancer confidence?
Did you have all that named
and all that knowingabout AND-ing in your body
when you started moving
into these kind of corporate systems?
- Oh man. No.
I mean my life has been really weird.
I don't think that I'vebeen decisive or intentional
(07:06):
or in charge until very recently
'cause it was a lot ofreaction and survival
and let's just left turn out of necessity,
like we've gotta gofigure out something else.
So I think it took me a long time
and I wouldn't say that impostersyndrome ever plagued me
(07:26):
in the early days.
Now it certainly does,
but in the early days it wasmore like I was an explorer
in a new world and what do we do here?
What are the rules?
How can I? who am I?
You want me to work for you?
Okay, what do you want meto do? Yeah, I'll do that.
Like I said, hire dancers'cause they're like,
"Yeah, I'll do it."
(07:47):
- Even though others don'tcome from the arts necessarily,
do you see AND-ing at play
when there's something that's working?
- You know, it's so funny.
That's like fully what productmanagement is actually.
Product management isabout the intersection
of design data and engineering.
(08:07):
You cannot do one without the other.
But what's fun is like I comefrom none of those worlds,
so I'm like hello, let meadd another little circle.
So already the AND-ing magic is happening
and that is probably why I ended up
actually really liking this career path.
(08:28):
I mean we can talk about that more later
'cause is there an existentialcrisis underneath it?
Absolutely.
But I just saw that it'skind of like making a soup
and there's just all theseingredients flying around in it
and throwing in another typeof brain doesn't hurt at all.
It helps.
We should have more diversityof thought. Absolutely.
(08:50):
- Yes. Testify to that.
I think that's what thegoal of our world here
in this podcast bubbleis to spark folks to say,
Hey, I and, I'm into that.
I'm into this and that,oh wait, I'm into this,
that and the other thing.
And that that creates newideas that maybe, I don't know,
(09:10):
that just weren't valued
or that weren't seen as ofvalue inside of oneself.
So it's like secretly a self-help podcast
because it's like a way to help folks
get through this existential crisis.
Whether it means falling more in love
with what they're doing orchanging lanes to something else.
Because you can and your way into that.
And that's what I see in you
is you came to New York as a dancer
and then you say there wasn'ta lot of intentionality
(09:32):
but you always, it seems, said yes.
And then you always kickedass and kept AND-ing
or might see a gesture ofmaybe didn't always kick ass,
maybe failed, maybe did some failing.
Did we learn from the failing?
Like what were some and failures?
- Woohoo. Did we ever learn from failing.
Yeah.
(09:53):
I think it's way more complex
when you zoom in, but zoomed out,
my identity journey waslike I was only a dancer
and then I only worked in techand now I'm finding balance.
But the reason I think that the balance
is coming to me now later in life
is because all of the thingswere already in there.
(10:16):
So I think being comfortablewith being more than one thing
is a very new revelation to me.
A big turning pointfor me actually I think
was after the skirr, the lane change
and the oh my god I need ajob and health insurance,
'cause I just tore everyligament and tendon in my ankle.
(10:36):
I abstained from going to shows.
I was like, I,
'cause obviouslydepression, I was destroyed
and I had been a depressedperson my entire life anyways.
So put that type of adversityon top of your dream
and your perceived single identity
and you're just destroyed.
So I was like, I cannot even go to a show.
(10:58):
I won't do it.
And I would go maybe tolike some downtown stuff
and I'd be like, "Ugh,I know all these people.
I was at that audition, I didn't get it.
She didn't deserve it."
And it was toxic energyleaking outta my pores.
So I was like, can't, won't, need a break.
So that's when I shifted toquote unquote one identity.
(11:21):
I'm just gonna go work in tech.
Sure, it's like cute thatI was a dancer or whatever.
Worked at ClassPass, thefounder was a dancer.
There were some of my roots still there.
Got a free unlimitedmembership. Loved that.
Did I go to Pilates every single day? Yes.
So some of it was still there.
Started taking hip hopclasses with my coworkers
(11:42):
and they were like, "You're really good."
I'm like, yeah, all right,let's not talk about it.
- Wow. You really buried that.
- Buried, buried it. Yeah.
- Even though it could have
or did it still help you atwork and help you ascend?
- My, you know what, I didn'tknow it but absolutely.
Dancing to me is problem solving.
(12:02):
How do I get from point Ain space to point B in space
in given amount of time
and we have powerhouseproblem solving brains.
So I really, really tamped it down
'cause I was hurt andI felt like a traitor.
It was a dancer who leftdance for a desk job,
(12:23):
the worst thing you could possibly do.
But I started to healbecause honestly again,
like given my life andwhat I had been through,
there were certain thingsthat I really needed,
like a stable paycheck changed my life,
absolutely changed my life.
- Yeah. That's not selling out.
Eating and having insurance,
I think that's a challenge for artists.
(12:46):
- I was gonna say, you know what else?
Health insurance, that was game changer.
Also like letting loose a little bit.
Oh I don't have to get up fordance class in the morning
so I'm gonna go out, drink a lot.
Go dancing quite often. Yeah, totally.
And I think I started to likeactually heal a little bit
(13:07):
by like busting myself open a bit.
And then I really started to heal
and the dancer circlecame back out of the fog
when I met another person at ClassPass
who was just like a diehard ballet fan.
Like had been a dancerwhen she was a teenager
and she was just like,"Let's go see Swan Lake.
(13:31):
New York City Ballet,Sarah Mearns is dancing."
I'm obsessed with her to this day.
And I was like, yeah, let's do it.
We went, we treated it likeit was our sports team.
We like shouted when Tiler Peck
did this incredibletriple down to the knee
'cause we were in orchestra, too.
We were like, "Yes!"
And like I can't eventell you how much she,
(13:54):
and that performance andall of that just healed me.
And then I realized,
this is really gonna make you laugh,
just like a ballerina at heart.
You know? That's just.
- I know.- I'm sorry, I tried.
- I know.
You can take you outta Boulderand put you back in New York,
but you can't take theballet out of the girl.
- Cannot. You cannot.
So I just became like superduper New York City Ballet
(14:17):
die-hard fan.
I know, still, I meanthis was probably what,
five, six years ago.
Now, like I'm a member, I ama subscriber, all of that.
I know them like my sportsteam and everything.
And that healed me
and brought the dancer selfback into my life so much.
(14:37):
And it was time that it needed.
I mean you're right, itwas always all in there.
But I think there's no coincidence
that when dancer self cameback into my life, my career,
my other part started to take off.
It was like power up. Okay.
Authentic self, form, assemble.
(15:00):
- Oh, I love that, Hayley.
And so this is what'sso incredible, right?
When you're studying dance as an undergrad
and then you move to the big bad
and you're gonna take it over
and you're gonna just eat that apple
and just get it all andthat it doesn't go exactly.
And then it goes worse than not exactly.
And then it returns from the fog
and then it's there for you, right?
(15:23):
And you're there for it.
And then now you have thiscapacity that is limitless
and that is in this like justthis space of what's possible.
So what do you see is possible for Hayley?
How do you see yourselfAND-ing into the future?
What do you think?
- Yeah. God, such a good question.
My theme for this yearis absolutely think big,
(15:45):
expand yourself, and, and, and, and, and,
what else, what else, what else.
Push the boundaries.
And I think, it wasprobably earlier this year,
I started calling myself a creative person
for the first time.
Yeah, your jaw just dropped.
I know.
Probably for the first time ever.
(16:07):
Or at least since college. Yeah.
- Okay. At least since Iwas your teacher, she says.
- I mean maybe, but.
The Pashmina.
- With the team Pashmina.
- Maybe, but I don't reallyremember myself like as a quote,
I don't know,
maybe it's just I didn'tuse that label something.
But that never, andcertainly as a teenager
(16:27):
when I was in that balletepisode one season one of like,
okay, I'm a ballerina.
That to me is like technical.
- Yeah. You were a technician.
- Problem solving. I was a technician.
- Oh, you were an engineer.
- Yeah, totally.
Yes. Of the body, of the space.
The pointe shoes.
I didn't ever think ofmyself as an artist.
(16:48):
Or is ballet artistic?Uh yeah. Oh my God, yes.
I am so passionate aboutit and I see that now
and I was an artist,
but that's just never been something
in the front of my mind.
So I think going into the future,
I have this powerfulword to add to my stew,
(17:08):
which is like creativity.
I'm a creative person.
I hope that that even expands into more,
like sure I have a cool rhythm now of,
I've got my professional lady circle,
I've got my absolute balletdie-hard fan nerd circle.
But I wanna add more.
And I think now that I feellike a creative person,
(17:31):
it's not just one creative outlet.
It was baby steps, you know?
It was like, okay, my creative outlet
will be going to ballet class
expressing myself with the music.
'Cause that just like gives me chills
even thinking about it,that is my soul right there.
But there's other ways to express as well.
(17:51):
And I am, like you said,
I haven't been called a writer in forever,
like a writing human being.
I'm trying to bring thatback into my life now, too.
And I really like want a third career
as a novelist to just really do.
- Okay. I wanna read that book already.
Sign me up because, Hayley, I remember.
No, just the way thatyou always have had this,
(18:16):
kind of hilariously dark sense of humor
that you've held inside of hard times,
hard things, but there's been humor to it.
There's been a way that it kind of just,
there's like an engine,
like this, the edge that you have
that maybe does feel morecomfortable in New York
than in Boulder.
(18:37):
I love how when we were talking pre-show,
you talked about being a transplant,
from Boulder to New York,
and you said something abouthow Boulder felt to you.
- Yeah, yeah.
Boulder was, I was, yeah,
I was the organ that wasrejected from the body.
(18:58):
- Just even that.
- Incompatible.
- Yeah. It was not compatible.
And just the way that youput the body and language,
humor and creativity together.
That's it to me. That's everything.
And that's where I spark tohumans who have that capacity.
It doesn't have to,
you're quickfire, you're rapid fire,
similar to somebody else I know.
- Yes. Where do I get that from?
(19:19):
- I dunno, maybe you learnedfrom it from me, kid.
But I don't think so.
I think that was always in you
and we can all operatein different tempos,
but I think it's from that space
of what are you curious about?
And you talked aboutcuriosity and creativity
and that's the stuff, right?
Like that's the really good stuff
that turns out the next andthe new and the not normal.
(19:41):
And thank goodness for that.
- Totally.
You've gotta have, I mean,
you box yourself inwhen you're not curious.
And I think you add more circles
to your now-growing Venn diagram
when you're curious about stuff
and you expand who you are
and that's just life.
(20:01):
Uh oh, the existential crisis is coming,
but I think that's just life.
Did you see that? The dark cloud just.
- I didn't see a dark cloud actually.
I didn't see crisis.
I saw like wonder,
I saw that there's thesky kind of part a bit.
- Oh, okay good.- That you just keep, yeah,
like what if it wasn't a crisis?
What if it's just a curious?
- Right? Yeah.
(20:22):
'Cause we're not reallytrying to solve anything.
We're just trying to live
and incorporate allthese sides of ourselves
and possibilities.
- That's right. And so then that.
Woo! See? Hmm.
I'm feeling so goodtalking to you, my friend.
Okay, I have a question for you though.
Are there ways that you and,when you wish you would only?
(20:44):
- It's the being present stuff.
Like I can't I'm sure, everysingle person that you talk
to will say this,
'cause I think the AND-ing isreally rich on large scale.
Everything we just talked about.
More creativity, moreskills, more vocations,
more things that celebratedifferent sides of yourself.
(21:06):
So I think that, absolutely.
But then like day to day,
oh, we all just get so mad at ourselves
for picking up the phone
and going on Instagram,where ironically I work,
like I'm aware, I'm aware.
It's just so frustratingthat the attention economy
(21:27):
is just really frustrating.
And I know that's a very generic answer
and I'm sure that everybodyyou talked to says that,
but that's one reason though,I love going to ballet class.
Never ever am I so present.
Music, again, the problemsolving, the placement,
the, oh, the pelvic floor, okay.
The rotator. Okay.
(21:48):
The shoulder. That's just like everything.
It's so hard.
It's just so complicatedthat it helps me focus
'cause just, I rarely getthat outside, out, in my life,
just every day, you know?
And part of it is like,
maybe even the dark side orthe downside to curiosity
(22:09):
is like a typical chaos moment for me
where I should be OR-ingor should be ONLY-ing,
rather AND-ing as I'm likesitting at my computer,
like should kind of be payingattention to this meeting
or maybe should kind of bedoing a single task elsewhere.
(22:29):
And then I'm like, ooh,you know what I could do?
Wait, I'm gonna look up this.
I have an idea. Wait, what if I did that?
Okay, I have another idea.
Okay, maybe later we'regonna do this. Okay.
And then next thing you know,
I've like bought tickets to"The Cursed Child" on Broadway,
which did happen, I saw that last night.
Yeah, it doesn't alwaysend me up in a bad place.
(22:52):
I will say that 'cause I like to do things
and I like to experience things
and sometimes you just can't contain
that moment of inspirationthat may hit whenever.
So it's like, ugh.
It's still just likeI annoy myself with it
and I wish we could all find more focus,
even like going to shows.
(23:13):
Yeah, I'm so passionate abouttaking that time to go see it.
And there have been somelately where I'm like, why?
I just missed her whole little variation.
I came all the way to Lincoln Center.
- Another story on topof what you were seeing?
That palimpsest that can happen
in live performance or live time?
(23:35):
- Yeah and maybe even a bad one, too,
like thinking about a toughmeeting I had today at work
or something and I was like,
ah, but wait, she justlanded like so many turns
and I think I missed it, ugh.
So I need to meditate.
- Yeah.- Clearly.
- But I also see that there
are those moving meditations, right.
I think taking classes, oneof them from me teaching,
(23:56):
drops me into my presence.
Recently I've been biking to work
and I was telling producer Tim
that leaving my phone in abag away from my human body
is just the best gift.
And just riding a bike to work
instead of making five phone calls.
So as much as I'm a fan ofthe and, it's real to only.
(24:19):
- Feel very, very overwhelming. Yeah.
- Yeah. It can.
I do like your image of itfrom this meta perspective,
this larger perspective from the way
that we're thinking about workor maybe a new special sauce,
then we wanna be AND-ing.
But when can we be where we are?
Okay, now we're gonna do a thing.
(24:40):
We're gonna do a thing.
We're gonna do a quick and dirty
and it has to be quick, butit doesn't have to be dirty.
Are you ready?
I need you to give me the first five words
that come into your mindthat have and in them.
- Okay.
Why rock and roll? What?
- Well you said rock androll. So it had and in it.
- I know, but why?
(25:02):
- This is just a thing. This is, go.
- Top and bottom, left and right,
good and bad, up and down.
It's all directional.
It's spatial.
- Okay. I love it.
I love it. This is so not how.
No, I love it.
I love it. Spatial.
Okay, now to rock and roll.
Give me the name of a band
or some names of bandsthat have and in them.
(25:29):
(both laughing)
I'm seeing one of themtonight at Red Rocks.
- You are, what is it?
- Iron & Wine.
- Iron & Wine!
I just wanted a hint.
There's one, Iron & Wine.
- There's a hint. Okay,now you give me one.
- Oh my god.
(25:52):
And oh, Christine andThe Queens, my favorite.
- Boom.
Boom.
- Absolute favorite.
- That was not quick or dirty.
Next one's gotta be faster.
Okay, we're going intothe AND-ing wardrobe.
Okay, you're putting on anoutfit you're gonna wear,
mm and mm, what are you wearing?
- Oh my God. I'm gonnawear shorts and heels.
(26:13):
- Yes, queen. Okay.
I wanna know about foodsor beverage combos.
Food or beverage combos that you create
that are specific to, you know,
in the Reese's peanut buttercup invention slash world,
Erika with the gummy bears and Chardonnay.
How does Hayley eat her ands?
- Oh, oh, oh my god.
Gummy bears and Chardonnay is good.
(26:36):
I think it is.
I hate cooking.
- Did I say cooking?
I said gummy bears and Chardonnay,where green is a fruit.
Think of ordering. Don't think of cooking.
(26:56):
Think of ordering.
You're a New Yorker, what do you get?
- Ordering?- Yeah.
- Well I think french fries and beer
because I have a bro streak.
- I love a bro streak and Ilike french fries and anything.
(27:17):
- Yeah, agree.
I think they pair with everything.
Give me something they don't and with.
- Try it.
Listeners at home right now,
try to imagine a world thatdoesn't pair with french fries.
Nobody can do it.
They can write to Tim the producer
if they think of something.
- Okay, great.
- Tim will take those calls.
(27:38):
Okay. I've got.
Are there other AND-ers orAND-ing that inspires you?
Like I think about LoieFuller being a chemist
and the way she created fabric
and light that was luminescent
and transformed the dance field.
For you, are there folksthat you're working with
or that you see around you
or in the ballet that are AND-ing
(27:58):
in ways that really get you excited?
- Hmm. You know, I think it.
It's been a lot of my friends actually.
It's been, I find the inspiration there.
I like to look at how theyspend their free time.
I've been, quote freetime 'cause it's not,
you have to segment your time,
but it's not actually segmented like that
(28:21):
as deep in your soul.
So I've just been really,really inspired by people
who, in my life, work, grind,whatever you wanna call it,
in New York and then they are writing,
they are painting, theyare writing poetry.
(28:45):
It's really cool.
That, I look to myclose community actually
to be like, oh you all,we contain multitudes.
- Yes, there you are, Universe. Yeah.
- Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
That's just inspired me a lot lately.
- I love that.- Yeah.
(29:06):
- Especially when you'resurrounded by stars
and then when you get to see them actually
as a full-bodied constellation,it's really, it's a gift.
- Yeah.
I have one friend inparticular, she works at,
I mean, she works as like an accountant.
She's also just graduatedfrom NYU with her MFA
in playwriting.
And I'm like, how are you?
She always sends me her plays to write.
(29:26):
I'm like, that's genius.
And you can like crunch a spreadsheet.
Damn, that's inspiring.- Yeah, is is.
Yeah, it is, that's the best.
- Yeah.
- Okay, we are gonna wrap it up here
with a closing question.
- Yes.
- I'm thinking about proverbial advice,
now that we're turning and into a verb.
(29:46):
We're gonna get into this proverb space
of the proverbial advice,the Irish blessing,
the, "And I hope theroad rises to meet you."
Or like the last thing you would say
if you were a graduationspeaker at the end of the litany
and read more poetry orand wear more sunscreen,
what would your blessing be?
(30:06):
- It's something like "Yes and."
Yes and.
When an idea comes up, "Yes and."
Be a "Yes and" person.
Try being a "Yes and" person.
(30:32):
- "The Ampersand" iswritten and produced by me,
Erika Randall and Tim Grassley.
If there are folks you'd like to hear from
on "The Ampersand", do please email us
at asinfo@colorado.edu.
Our theme music was composed and performed
by Nelson Walker, a CU Boulder alum,
brilliant cellist composerand a fantastic dancer.
(30:54):
Episodes are recorded at Interplay Studios
in Boulder, Colorado.
I'm Erika Randall
and this is "The Ampersand".
(upbeat music)
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