October 19, 2023 • 19 mins
Another gallery seems to be shutting down every few weeks, and everyone’s talking about an art market correction, but the art fairs must go on.
For this episode, Josh Baer and Luyang Jiang were on the road in London for Frieze art fair and the London auctions. Listen as Josh shares his perspective as a veteran art advisor, revealing the impacts of the so-called art market correction at Frieze, what the Long Museum selling at auction recently in Hong Kong means for the future of collecting in China, and how top gallerists are planning for a potentially rocky road ahead.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Baer (00:00):
Hello, I'm Josh Baer and welcome to the Baer Facts podcast.
My colleague Lu Yang and I are on the roadin London this week for Frieze Art Fair.
Today, we'll talk about the real impact,the so called art market correction,
and what the Long Museum selling atauction recently in Hong Kong means
(00:21):
for the future of collecting in China.
90 percent of restaurants that open fail.
I would say 90 percent of galleriesthat open are gone within 10 years.
It's a bit Darwinian.
In the sense of the big guys canconsume the middle and little guys.
(00:44):
That's, again, human nature.
This is, uh, not a socialist system.
This is capitalism in asort of, um, obvious way.
Luyang Jiang (01:02):
So what should we say in the beginning?
Hello from London.
Josh Baer (01:05):
London calling from our tiny little suite at Claridge's.
Hello Josh.
Well Yang, nice to see you.
Hello.
This is a long way from Helsinki.
A
Luyang Jiang (01:14):
longer way from New York.
We went to Frey's opening yesterday.
As always, what's your first impression?
What would you like toshare with our audience?
Josh Baer (01:22):
I think you can never be too surprised in the art world
that whatever is going on in thereal world looks at the surface to
have no effect of the art world.
So clearly the war in the Middle Eastshould be and may be on everybody's
minds, but you wouldn't know itwalking through the aisles of Frey's.
(01:43):
And we probably shouldn'teven be surprised by
Luyang Jiang (01:46):
that.
So obviously you've been comingto London every year for Phrase
Week, and we're going to talkabout auction a little bit later.
Do you get tired of this, orhow do you prepare yourself
before coming here every year?
Do you look for somethingnew, and how's your routine?
Maybe share with our audience.
Josh Baer (02:03):
I think the Art Fair model has evolved.
If it's October, it's Freeze London.
If it's December, it's Miami Beach.
If it's February, it's this and that.
So, the 12 month calendar ofit has made each one a little
less important by definition.
Freeze began as an alternative modelby an art magazine to make art fairs
(02:28):
feel and look differently, and...
That intention, whether it was realizedor not, is no longer part of its
mission, so it's a bit Groundhog Day.
Luyang Jiang (02:41):
Coming from New York, what's the major difference
between the art community, theatmosphere in New York and London?
Josh Baer (02:49):
They're better dressed at an opening at Friese than in New York.
Maybe not me, but in general, I think it'sa group of people that, uh, Older timers
wonder, how are all those people VIPs?
Who are all those people?
The older dealers wonder thesame thing at 11 o'clock.
(03:10):
There can't possibly be that many ARCcollecting VIPs to be allowed in these
two buildings at one time, yet they are.
We're all a little bit, how did
Luyang Jiang (03:21):
that happen?
For some listeners who might havenot been to the phrase, maybe explain
a little bit the two buildingsand then what's your routine?
Which one do you go to?
Like, what's the differences?
Josh Baer (03:32):
Well, if you like to be pushed and shoved by a group of
people rushing to get in to look athot young artworks that were already
sold before the show opens, then youstart at what we call Freeze Normal,
which is in one part of Regent Park.
Or if you like to take your time alittle bit and see things that are
(03:52):
a little bit connoisseur like, thenyou start at Freeze Masters in a
much smaller space and manageable.
So I start at Freeze Masters becauseI know in a couple of hours I'll have
seen the art and moved on, and thenby the time I get to the other side
of the park, a 20 minute walk, I'min a sort of different state of mind.
Luyang Jiang (04:14):
How much has the world changed since last year at this
time in London and yesterday at the
Josh Baer (04:20):
opening?
I think that you're asking aboutthe art market or the world?
Or in general.
We were in a frothy, everybody's ina genius mode, nothing's available,
bye, bye, bye mode was a year ago,waiting for the music to maybe stop.
(04:42):
Now we're at a correction point, sothere's a little bit of less urgency,
and art world auctions and artfairs are built for false urgencies.
Will Griffith (05:02):
Join us after the break as Josh explains how galleries are
responding to the recent art marketcorrection, revealing who might be
the winners and who are the losers.
This episode is brought to you byart and tech innovator, TR Lab.
TR Lab partners with artists,foundations, and institutions to
develop unique digital art experienceswith an educational mission.
(05:25):
Visit trlab.
com to see how TR Lab is fusing blockchaintechnology with fine art expertise
to pioneer the future of collecting.
Luyang Jiang (05:37):
Speaking about corrections, when there's a market
corrections, you know, they're always...
Winners and losers.
In this case, currently, in youropinion, who might be, if there are any,
whether it's for art categories or artcollectors, who will be the, might be
the winners, who might be the losers,
Josh Baer (05:56):
and why?
The big guys always win.
The middle guys always getsqueezed out, and the new guys
are already always temporary.
There's been a lot of handwringing that I see online.
About first it was, uh,one gallery closing.
Then it was two galleries closing.
Now it's a third gallery closing thathad been in business for ten years.
(06:21):
That started as, you know,little tiny things and then
became sort of like, uh, middle.
That's happened forever.
And every time they close,somebody else is going to open.
And another five and ten yearsfrom now, other people are
going to say, I've had enough.
I don't want to do it anymore.
(06:42):
Or, I'm not, it's not working.
So that's all part ofthe normal ecosystem.
I mean, 90 percent of restaurants thatopen, I would say 90 percent of galleries
that open are gone within 10 years.
That's normal.
(07:03):
If you were looking for asteady income, I used to say,
then you should go work at IBM.
But even now, you go work at IBM,you can be downsized and outsourced,
and there's no guarantees there.
So, it's a natural, It's a bit Darwinianin the sense of the big guys can
(07:27):
consume the middle and little guys.
That's, again, human nature.
This is not a socialist system.
This is capitalism in asort of, um, obvious way.
But I would take issue with theterm our market correction, even
though I use it, that implies thatthere is something that's correct,
(07:52):
that there's a correct price.
And there's never a correct price.
I said to a dealer yesterday,I asked the price of something.
He said 2.
85 million, I don't knowif it was euros or dollars.
And I said, so you sat thereyesterday and you went 2.
9.
That'd be ridiculous.
We couldn't ask that.
(08:12):
People would think we're crazy.
On the other hand, 2.
8, we're not, what are we,giving this thing away?
I mean, these corrections and pricethings are arbitrary, they're not
refrigerators, they're not cereal,they're unique works of art, it's a, not
a quantitative kind of thing as much aspeople think that they have all this data.
(08:36):
With that in mind.
Galleries are prepared to either havelower their prices or to give 20 or 30
percent discounts, which if you'd askedfor last year, they would have looked
at you like you were out of your mind.
Suddenly, sure, 200 is 170 or whatever.
(08:57):
So, that's, it's a change of perceivedattitude, but nothing's changed.
In terms
Luyang Jiang (09:04):
of the artworks offered by, uh, the galleries this year, people
always like to talk about the trend.
Uh, is there any major shift
Josh Baer (09:13):
or, well, for those of you who weren't there, it was all NFTs.
Every booth was just video and N f t.
You couldn't find a painting,couldn't find a sculpture.
Everybody was paying incrypto, and it was all NFTs.
Didn't you find that little yang?
N
Luyang Jiang (09:28):
f t?
What is NF t.
What is in it?
Josh Baer (09:32):
So that's like, that's gone.
That's gone.
It was Art fairs havebecome pretty conservative.
Pride paintings, mostly.
Domestic size, mostly.
Works that people want to consume, mostly.
I mean, there's exceptions wherepeople really make statements.
(09:52):
I would say Parts of Free's master set, awhole section that was curated, a term I
hate, we'll get to that another time, bySheena Wagstaff, the former, um, senior
curator at the Met, in the studio thatreally had about five or six artists doing
booths and works representing the studio.
(10:13):
That was pretty interesting.
And that had a differentfeel to it than here's some
inventory we have sitting around.
What I will say that's importantis my conversation with many of the
dealers, successful ones were, what'sit going to be like in a few months?
They're looking into next year.
(10:34):
What's our budget?
Are we doing these art fairs?
How's the market going?
Not today because they're still coastingoff yesterday's sales or sales from
June They're like do I sell inventory?
Do I go cash?
What's my cost of operation?
So they're getting out ahead ofplanning, thinking not about correction,
(11:01):
but about doing less business.
And that is.
definitely on the front of the minds ofevery exhibitor in that fair, regardless
of how much art they sold yesterday.
Will Griffith (11:19):
After the break, Josh analyzes the recent auctions
in Hong Kong, including the broaderimpact of the Long Museum auction.
A private museum in Shanghai that shockedthe art world last month by deaccessioning
dozens of works at Sotheby's.
This episode is brought to youby art and tech innovator TR Lab.
TR Lab partners with artists,foundations, and institutions to
(11:43):
develop unique digital art experienceswith an educational mission.
Visit trlab.
com to see how TRLab is fusing blockchaintechnology with fine art expertise
to pioneer the future of collecting.
Luyang Jiang (11:58):
Let's talk about the auctions.
That's also the same way the auctionhouses here are hosting their show.
We went there to havea look at the previews.
What are the highlights of this
Josh Baer (12:08):
year?
The highlight of this year is thatLondon and Paris aren't New York.
So what really countsis New York in November.
These are really ways for the auctionhouses to generate ongoing revenue.
So the night auctions aren'teven really the point here.
The point here for their businessis the day sales, because
(12:29):
that's where all the profit is.
So I'm not quite sure why one wouldsell at auction in the evening.
in London this week.
I think Paris will be a more importantbarometer because with the simultaneous
Perry plus and Sotheby's and Christie'sdoing more major sales, there's kind
(12:52):
of bigger collections going next week.
I still think Paris could becomethe market center of Europe.
London is desperately trying tohold its place as number two.
Luyang Jiang (13:05):
Well, before London Freeze Week, there were auctions, uh, just a
week ago, was the auctions in Hong Kong.
And of course, everybody was talkingabout this single auction in South Asia,
which is the Lone Museum collection.
You want to comment on that?
Josh Baer (13:24):
I think we draw a lot of analysis from 37 works
of art spread out over differentperiods with 11 not selling.
So the data in the art market is reallyskewed in general from few data points.
So to look at a different level,the difference between Sotheby's
(13:48):
and Christie's totals for theyear That might be two paintings.
It's not a full years of work.
So long museum didn't do so well.
I don't think that wasthe important story.
The important story was the variousowner sales didn't do so well.
And that has a different characteristic.
If you're trying to analyze data, ifyou have 40 sellers, you might have
(14:14):
more information about motivationthan trying to get all your data
from one owner's motives for selling.
It's not about, no one liked the ownersof the museum, or why did they have
their prices, or why is China selling,just the normal day to day thing that
would have been 90 or 100 percent sold.
(14:36):
was 75 or 65 percent sold.
That's actually a bigger story thanone group of 30 or 40 paintings.
Luyang Jiang (14:46):
In terms of Lowe Museum, I mean, obviously people are talking about
Chinese collectors, Chinese museums.
What kind of messages are peopleoutside Asia, outside China
specifically, are talking about this?
But
Josh Baer (14:59):
they're all speculating.
It's like, why do these people do this?
I don't think they were really articulateenough in explaining their motivations.
So that lends mystery to it.
Do they need money?
Do they just want to cash in?
Were they having trouble gettingcurrency out of the country?
Were they trying to supportall their institutions?
(15:20):
Were they doing something philanthropic?
Were they just rolling the dicebecause they're traders and
entrepreneurs and they like...
The action, it could be anyand all of those things.
We don't often get the real truthas to why anybody's selling.
So I think we put a little toomuch focus on the rise of mainland
(15:44):
China and then a little bit toomuch focus to the sky is falling.
It's a global market.
There were people buying fromFrance works in those auctions
that were consigned by Americans.
Sometimes you use that avenue.
(16:05):
It's, there's always a new groupcoming in that's supporting the market.
Remember 20 years ago it was the Koreans,then it was the Middle East, then it was
the mainland China, then it was this,and then it was the crypto boys, maybe.
And like, somebody willstep into the fray, and...
And some people will move on.
(16:27):
Nothing is new.
It's just like, again, the question reallyis for the listeners that collect art,
it's like, what does it mean for my shit?
Okay?
I don't care how the art marketdid, except I collect Modigliani,
(16:47):
why did that sell badly?
If the Richter did well, butthe Modigliani didn't and you're
a Modigliani collector, youdon't care about the Richter.
So I think we're overanalyzing all of this.
Luyang Jiang (17:00):
But maybe for the listeners who are quite new for
this, why were people so worriedwhen the announcement came out?
Why people feel this is a notso good move for many groups,
including artists, including themuseum, including certain regions?
Josh Baer (17:17):
Because we're still trying to understand what it means for 170
private museums spread across China.
Is that 170?
I mean, if it was M plus selling,that would be really troubling sign.
This is, you know, Peter Brandt selling.
(17:39):
Does anybody care that Peter Brandtis selling in every single auction?
He has a foundation that does big shows.
Do they care that the rebels sometimes putthings at auction and you don't know it?
No.
So, I think there's...
Such an uncertainty about the politicalsituation in China, there's uncertainty
(18:03):
about cash, there's uncertaintyabout the idea of philanthropy
being new in a communist country.
All those things together.
Make for a moment of like,hmm, what does this mean?
And no one really knows what it means.
Luyang Jiang (18:24):
Now I want to go back.
I know what it means,
Josh Baer (18:25):
but I'm not going to tell you.
Luyang Jiang (18:27):
Uh, from the next episode, maybe?
Subscribers only.
For subscribers.
For those of you who are listening,if you're not subscriber for the Bare
Facts newsletter, please do so now.
It's a good time.
Josh Baer (18:38):
Or give us five stars and then maybe I'll tell you next time.
Yes, please.
We can see who does that, sowe're keeping track of you.
Will Griffith (18:48):
Thank you for listening to the Bear Facts Podcast, brought
to you by the leading news sourcefor the art world since 1994.
Our host is Josh Baer.
Our executive producer is Luyang Jiang.
I'm Will Griffith, our associate producer.
Our content strategist is Boliang Xun,and our editing team is Mona Productions.
(19:09):
Subscribe today wherever you get yourpodcasts, and check back soon for
future episodes as we unpack the innerworkings of the global art industry
through exclusive, candid interviewswith key players in the business,
as they offer their perspectiveson art and the market in the U.
S., Asia, Europe, and beyond.
Hello, I'm Josh Baer and welcome to the Baer Facts podcast.
My colleague Lu Yang and I are on the roadin London this week for Frieze Art Fair.
Today, we'll talk about the real impact,the so called art market correction,
and what the Long Museum selling atauction recently in Hong Kong means
(00:21):
for the future of collecting in China.
90 percent of restaurants that open fail.
I would say 90 percent of galleriesthat open are gone within 10 years.
It's a bit Darwinian.
In the sense of the big guys canconsume the middle and little guys.
(00:44):
That's, again, human nature.
This is, uh, not a socialist system.
This is capitalism in asort of, um, obvious way.
Luyang Jiang (01:02):
So what should we say in the beginning?
Hello from London.
Josh Baer (01:05):
London calling from our tiny little suite at Claridge's.
Hello Josh.
Well Yang, nice to see you.
Hello.
This is a long way from Helsinki.
A
Luyang Jiang (01:14):
longer way from New York.
We went to Frey's opening yesterday.
As always, what's your first impression?
What would you like toshare with our audience?
Josh Baer (01:22):
I think you can never be too surprised in the art world
that whatever is going on in thereal world looks at the surface to
have no effect of the art world.
So clearly the war in the Middle Eastshould be and may be on everybody's
minds, but you wouldn't know itwalking through the aisles of Frey's.
(01:43):
And we probably shouldn'teven be surprised by
Luyang Jiang (01:46):
that.
So obviously you've been comingto London every year for Phrase
Week, and we're going to talkabout auction a little bit later.
Do you get tired of this, orhow do you prepare yourself
before coming here every year?
Do you look for somethingnew, and how's your routine?
Maybe share with our audience.
Josh Baer (02:03):
I think the Art Fair model has evolved.
If it's October, it's Freeze London.
If it's December, it's Miami Beach.
If it's February, it's this and that.
So, the 12 month calendar ofit has made each one a little
less important by definition.
Freeze began as an alternative modelby an art magazine to make art fairs
(02:28):
feel and look differently, and...
That intention, whether it was realizedor not, is no longer part of its
mission, so it's a bit Groundhog Day.
Luyang Jiang (02:41):
Coming from New York, what's the major difference
between the art community, theatmosphere in New York and London?
Josh Baer (02:49):
They're better dressed at an opening at Friese than in New York.
Maybe not me, but in general, I think it'sa group of people that, uh, Older timers
wonder, how are all those people VIPs?
Who are all those people?
The older dealers wonder thesame thing at 11 o'clock.
(03:10):
There can't possibly be that many ARCcollecting VIPs to be allowed in these
two buildings at one time, yet they are.
We're all a little bit, how did
Luyang Jiang (03:21):
that happen?
For some listeners who might havenot been to the phrase, maybe explain
a little bit the two buildingsand then what's your routine?
Which one do you go to?
Like, what's the differences?
Josh Baer (03:32):
Well, if you like to be pushed and shoved by a group of
people rushing to get in to look athot young artworks that were already
sold before the show opens, then youstart at what we call Freeze Normal,
which is in one part of Regent Park.
Or if you like to take your time alittle bit and see things that are
(03:52):
a little bit connoisseur like, thenyou start at Freeze Masters in a
much smaller space and manageable.
So I start at Freeze Masters becauseI know in a couple of hours I'll have
seen the art and moved on, and thenby the time I get to the other side
of the park, a 20 minute walk, I'min a sort of different state of mind.
Luyang Jiang (04:14):
How much has the world changed since last year at this
time in London and yesterday at the
Josh Baer (04:20):
opening?
I think that you're asking aboutthe art market or the world?
Or in general.
We were in a frothy, everybody's ina genius mode, nothing's available,
bye, bye, bye mode was a year ago,waiting for the music to maybe stop.
(04:42):
Now we're at a correction point, sothere's a little bit of less urgency,
and art world auctions and artfairs are built for false urgencies.
Will Griffith (05:02):
Join us after the break as Josh explains how galleries are
responding to the recent art marketcorrection, revealing who might be
the winners and who are the losers.
This episode is brought to you byart and tech innovator, TR Lab.
TR Lab partners with artists,foundations, and institutions to
develop unique digital art experienceswith an educational mission.
(05:25):
Visit trlab.
com to see how TR Lab is fusing blockchaintechnology with fine art expertise
to pioneer the future of collecting.
Luyang Jiang (05:37):
Speaking about corrections, when there's a market
corrections, you know, they're always...
Winners and losers.
In this case, currently, in youropinion, who might be, if there are any,
whether it's for art categories or artcollectors, who will be the, might be
the winners, who might be the losers,
Josh Baer (05:56):
and why?
The big guys always win.
The middle guys always getsqueezed out, and the new guys
are already always temporary.
There's been a lot of handwringing that I see online.
About first it was, uh,one gallery closing.
Then it was two galleries closing.
Now it's a third gallery closing thathad been in business for ten years.
(06:21):
That started as, you know,little tiny things and then
became sort of like, uh, middle.
That's happened forever.
And every time they close,somebody else is going to open.
And another five and ten yearsfrom now, other people are
going to say, I've had enough.
I don't want to do it anymore.
(06:42):
Or, I'm not, it's not working.
So that's all part ofthe normal ecosystem.
I mean, 90 percent of restaurants thatopen, I would say 90 percent of galleries
that open are gone within 10 years.
That's normal.
(07:03):
If you were looking for asteady income, I used to say,
then you should go work at IBM.
But even now, you go work at IBM,you can be downsized and outsourced,
and there's no guarantees there.
So, it's a natural, It's a bit Darwinianin the sense of the big guys can
(07:27):
consume the middle and little guys.
That's, again, human nature.
This is not a socialist system.
This is capitalism in asort of, um, obvious way.
But I would take issue with theterm our market correction, even
though I use it, that implies thatthere is something that's correct,
(07:52):
that there's a correct price.
And there's never a correct price.
I said to a dealer yesterday,I asked the price of something.
He said 2.
85 million, I don't knowif it was euros or dollars.
And I said, so you sat thereyesterday and you went 2.
9.
That'd be ridiculous.
We couldn't ask that.
(08:12):
People would think we're crazy.
On the other hand, 2.
8, we're not, what are we,giving this thing away?
I mean, these corrections and pricethings are arbitrary, they're not
refrigerators, they're not cereal,they're unique works of art, it's a, not
a quantitative kind of thing as much aspeople think that they have all this data.
(08:36):
With that in mind.
Galleries are prepared to either havelower their prices or to give 20 or 30
percent discounts, which if you'd askedfor last year, they would have looked
at you like you were out of your mind.
Suddenly, sure, 200 is 170 or whatever.
(08:57):
So, that's, it's a change of perceivedattitude, but nothing's changed.
In terms
Luyang Jiang (09:04):
of the artworks offered by, uh, the galleries this year, people
always like to talk about the trend.
Uh, is there any major shift
Josh Baer (09:13):
or, well, for those of you who weren't there, it was all NFTs.
Every booth was just video and N f t.
You couldn't find a painting,couldn't find a sculpture.
Everybody was paying incrypto, and it was all NFTs.
Didn't you find that little yang?
N
Luyang Jiang (09:28):
f t?
What is NF t.
What is in it?
Josh Baer (09:32):
So that's like, that's gone.
That's gone.
It was Art fairs havebecome pretty conservative.
Pride paintings, mostly.
Domestic size, mostly.
Works that people want to consume, mostly.
I mean, there's exceptions wherepeople really make statements.
(09:52):
I would say Parts of Free's master set, awhole section that was curated, a term I
hate, we'll get to that another time, bySheena Wagstaff, the former, um, senior
curator at the Met, in the studio thatreally had about five or six artists doing
booths and works representing the studio.
(10:13):
That was pretty interesting.
And that had a differentfeel to it than here's some
inventory we have sitting around.
What I will say that's importantis my conversation with many of the
dealers, successful ones were, what'sit going to be like in a few months?
They're looking into next year.
(10:34):
What's our budget?
Are we doing these art fairs?
How's the market going?
Not today because they're still coastingoff yesterday's sales or sales from
June They're like do I sell inventory?
Do I go cash?
What's my cost of operation?
So they're getting out ahead ofplanning, thinking not about correction,
(11:01):
but about doing less business.
And that is.
definitely on the front of the minds ofevery exhibitor in that fair, regardless
of how much art they sold yesterday.
Will Griffith (11:19):
After the break, Josh analyzes the recent auctions
in Hong Kong, including the broaderimpact of the Long Museum auction.
A private museum in Shanghai that shockedthe art world last month by deaccessioning
dozens of works at Sotheby's.
This episode is brought to youby art and tech innovator TR Lab.
TR Lab partners with artists,foundations, and institutions to
(11:43):
develop unique digital art experienceswith an educational mission.
Visit trlab.
com to see how TRLab is fusing blockchaintechnology with fine art expertise
to pioneer the future of collecting.
Luyang Jiang (11:58):
Let's talk about the auctions.
That's also the same way the auctionhouses here are hosting their show.
We went there to havea look at the previews.
What are the highlights of this
Josh Baer (12:08):
year?
The highlight of this year is thatLondon and Paris aren't New York.
So what really countsis New York in November.
These are really ways for the auctionhouses to generate ongoing revenue.
So the night auctions aren'teven really the point here.
The point here for their businessis the day sales, because
(12:29):
that's where all the profit is.
So I'm not quite sure why one wouldsell at auction in the evening.
in London this week.
I think Paris will be a more importantbarometer because with the simultaneous
Perry plus and Sotheby's and Christie'sdoing more major sales, there's kind
(12:52):
of bigger collections going next week.
I still think Paris could becomethe market center of Europe.
London is desperately trying tohold its place as number two.
Luyang Jiang (13:05):
Well, before London Freeze Week, there were auctions, uh, just a
week ago, was the auctions in Hong Kong.
And of course, everybody was talkingabout this single auction in South Asia,
which is the Lone Museum collection.
You want to comment on that?
Josh Baer (13:24):
I think we draw a lot of analysis from 37 works
of art spread out over differentperiods with 11 not selling.
So the data in the art market is reallyskewed in general from few data points.
So to look at a different level,the difference between Sotheby's
(13:48):
and Christie's totals for theyear That might be two paintings.
It's not a full years of work.
So long museum didn't do so well.
I don't think that wasthe important story.
The important story was the variousowner sales didn't do so well.
And that has a different characteristic.
If you're trying to analyze data, ifyou have 40 sellers, you might have
(14:14):
more information about motivationthan trying to get all your data
from one owner's motives for selling.
It's not about, no one liked the ownersof the museum, or why did they have
their prices, or why is China selling,just the normal day to day thing that
would have been 90 or 100 percent sold.
(14:36):
was 75 or 65 percent sold.
That's actually a bigger story thanone group of 30 or 40 paintings.
Luyang Jiang (14:46):
In terms of Lowe Museum, I mean, obviously people are talking about
Chinese collectors, Chinese museums.
What kind of messages are peopleoutside Asia, outside China
specifically, are talking about this?
But
Josh Baer (14:59):
they're all speculating.
It's like, why do these people do this?
I don't think they were really articulateenough in explaining their motivations.
So that lends mystery to it.
Do they need money?
Do they just want to cash in?
Were they having trouble gettingcurrency out of the country?
Were they trying to supportall their institutions?
(15:20):
Were they doing something philanthropic?
Were they just rolling the dicebecause they're traders and
entrepreneurs and they like...
The action, it could be anyand all of those things.
We don't often get the real truthas to why anybody's selling.
So I think we put a little toomuch focus on the rise of mainland
(15:44):
China and then a little bit toomuch focus to the sky is falling.
It's a global market.
There were people buying fromFrance works in those auctions
that were consigned by Americans.
Sometimes you use that avenue.
(16:05):
It's, there's always a new groupcoming in that's supporting the market.
Remember 20 years ago it was the Koreans,then it was the Middle East, then it was
the mainland China, then it was this,and then it was the crypto boys, maybe.
And like, somebody willstep into the fray, and...
And some people will move on.
(16:27):
Nothing is new.
It's just like, again, the question reallyis for the listeners that collect art,
it's like, what does it mean for my shit?
Okay?
I don't care how the art marketdid, except I collect Modigliani,
(16:47):
why did that sell badly?
If the Richter did well, butthe Modigliani didn't and you're
a Modigliani collector, youdon't care about the Richter.
So I think we're overanalyzing all of this.
Luyang Jiang (17:00):
But maybe for the listeners who are quite new for
this, why were people so worriedwhen the announcement came out?
Why people feel this is a notso good move for many groups,
including artists, including themuseum, including certain regions?
Josh Baer (17:17):
Because we're still trying to understand what it means for 170
private museums spread across China.
Is that 170?
I mean, if it was M plus selling,that would be really troubling sign.
This is, you know, Peter Brandt selling.
(17:39):
Does anybody care that Peter Brandtis selling in every single auction?
He has a foundation that does big shows.
Do they care that the rebels sometimes putthings at auction and you don't know it?
No.
So, I think there's...
Such an uncertainty about the politicalsituation in China, there's uncertainty
(18:03):
about cash, there's uncertaintyabout the idea of philanthropy
being new in a communist country.
All those things together.
Make for a moment of like,hmm, what does this mean?
And no one really knows what it means.
Luyang Jiang (18:24):
Now I want to go back.
I know what it means,
Josh Baer (18:25):
but I'm not going to tell you.
Luyang Jiang (18:27):
Uh, from the next episode, maybe?
Subscribers only.
For subscribers.
For those of you who are listening,if you're not subscriber for the Bare
Facts newsletter, please do so now.
It's a good time.
Josh Baer (18:38):
Or give us five stars and then maybe I'll tell you next time.
Yes, please.
We can see who does that, sowe're keeping track of you.
Will Griffith (18:48):
Thank you for listening to the Bear Facts Podcast, brought
to you by the leading news sourcefor the art world since 1994.
Our host is Josh Baer.
Our executive producer is Luyang Jiang.
I'm Will Griffith, our associate producer.
Our content strategist is Boliang Xun,and our editing team is Mona Productions.
(19:09):
Subscribe today wherever you get yourpodcasts, and check back soon for
future episodes as we unpack the innerworkings of the global art industry
through exclusive, candid interviewswith key players in the business,
as they offer their perspectiveson art and the market in the U.
S., Asia, Europe, and beyond.
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