September 14, 2023 • 34 mins
In this episode, Blum & Poe co-founder Jeff Poe discusses his decision to step back from the gallery, after 30 years helping put LA on the map as an art city.
Listen as Jeff gets candid about his experiences building a gallery amidst the art world's evolution from an insider's club to an international corporate industry.
We go behind the scenes of Blum & Poe, as Jeff describes how he split up duties in his partnership with Tim Blum, and his work with the Robert Colescott estate.
Jeff also offers his advice on choosing a role in the art world, dealing with misbehaving artists, and keeping up with the competition in the art world’s new corporate era.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Baer (00:00):
Hello, I'm Josh Baer and welcome to the Baer Faxt Podcast.
Today, we sit down with Jeff Poe, whorecently announced that he'll be stepping
back from his role as co founder ofBlum Poe Gallery after 30 years helping
to put LA on the map as an art city.
Jeff Poe (00:23):
The rules are gone.
The way things used to be.
They are totally gone.
Josh Baer (00:30):
Give me a for instance.
Jeff Poe (00:32):
It's just not the way it used to be.
For instance, museums aren'tas important any longer.
Criticism is out the fucking door.
Nobody gives a share of reads.
Artists have careers thatlast five months, six months.
You got the long museumselling at auction.
I mean, these are allthings that used to be like.
You know, everybody would be clutchingtheir pearls and saying, Oh dear,
(00:54):
now it's like, this is normal.
Will Griffith (00:59):
In this episode, we'll look back at Jeff's career helping build
Blum Poe, as he sheds light on how the artworld has evolved from an insider's club
to an international corporate industry.
First, Jeff explains why he decidedto step back from the gallery.
Josh Baer (01:16):
Jeff founded...
with his partner TimBlumenpo in the fall of 1994.
I don't know if you realize that'sjust maybe two months after I
closed the Josh Baer gallery.
So I kind of see you as like, youknow, my, uh, stepchildren that took
over the helm and right at the timewhen that we created the Baer Facts.
So welcome Jeff to our podcast.
(01:39):
Thanks for having me.
Let's get some of the, um,basics out of the way so we
can get into the nitty gritty.
Um, two things happened in the last month.
Um, you announced your newsituation with Blum Poe.
So I'd like you to explainwhat that is and why that is.
And we were interested also becauseat the same time I wrote an op
(02:01):
ed talking about when is enough.
enough for people in the artworld, in the art business.
So first, what exactly happenedin your words, and then why?
Jeff Poe (02:10):
Basically what was going on is Tim and I saw the forward movement
of the gallery in a different way.
And he wanted to push it one way.
I wanted to go another way.
I feel a lot of, uh, just a lot of thanksthat Tim is going to push it forward.
He's keeping the gallery together.
He's keeping the staff together.
He's keeping the artists together.
You know, nothing is going to change.
(02:32):
The only change is that I havestepped back and I'm just going
to move forward in different ways.
So that is what has happened, essentially.
I mean, and I'm thankfulfor Tim for continuing this.
Josh Baer (02:47):
I was at the Armory Fair today and I talked to one of my favorite
young dealers, Charlie Moffitt, andCharlie was saying and agreeing with
me that this is kind of a win for Jeff.
Well, as people are treating it likeit's your obituary or something nefarious
happened, it's, this is good news fromwhere he was sitting, where I was sitting.
(03:09):
Yeah,
Jeff Poe (03:09):
no, I totally agree.
I mean, look, we all have differentmotives of what we do in this business.
And yeah, I, to kind of swingaround to what you were saying a
second ago, You know, what's enough?
Like, how far do you needto actually go with it?
And I know, for a lot of people, thismove that I'm making seems completely
(03:32):
unusual and strange, but from where I'msitting, I mean, it's completely natural.
The way that this is being laid out,I feel is incredibly elegant and
proper and correct, and just, I'mgonna move forward in a different way.
You know, I said, in the pressrelease, I just want to make my
life basically kind of easier.
(03:53):
And having a gallery, as you know,can be a stressful situation.
And, uh, I'm just happy to be ableto, like, take a step back from that.
Josh Baer (04:04):
To be sort of more specific, it's not waking up at 5 in the morning
thinking, My God, I've got payroll of50 people, I've got 12 Zoom meetings.
What kind of thoughts were going throughyour head that you wanted to clear out?
Yes,
Jeff Poe (04:19):
there is a lot to deal with on a day to day basis from the gallery.
There's also a lot to deal with interms of strategy moving forward
and trying to figure out how allthose pieces are going to work.
Because it's three for us, threegalleries, you know, 40 something
people, 60 artists, it's a lot.
And I don't know, like, the beingable to like kind of let go of
(04:42):
that, I'm not sure what's goingto wind up happening for myself in
terms of how I'll feel about that.
Right now I'm still kind of in it, youknow, still thinking about unwinding
things and dealing with the gallery.
So it's going to be a, it's a process,you know, and, and for right now I, I
(05:04):
can't actually anticipate what's going to
Josh Baer (05:07):
be.
But gallerists are eithergoing forward or they're going
backwards at any moment, I think.
Do you agree with that?
And the effort to keep it goingforward can be really overwhelming?
Jeff Poe (05:19):
I think it winds up for every gallerist is different.
You know, who knows whattheir strategies are.
Everybody has a differentstrategy for ourselves.
It's really, of course, it always swungback to the artist and trying to do
the best that we can and be able tohave a proper platform to be able to
show the work and do the right thing.
Josh Baer (05:35):
Well, for the artists, they're either going forward
or they're being left behind.
So the pressure from them is,where's my next museum show?
When's my next big this,my next commission?
They, they can't just stay in stasis.
Right?
No,
Jeff Poe (05:51):
of course not.
But I mean, the galleries, I mean,you said, does a gallery need to go
forward or does a gallery actually,can it stay just static or, you
know, the fear of going backwards?
I don't know how people feel.
I only know how I've dealt with it.
And yes, I wanted to kind of like keepthings together, not really interested
(06:12):
in this empire kind of building.
I find that completely strange.
Um, but that's my own personal strategy.
Josh Baer (06:20):
But how does a gallery deal with 60 artists, two owners and a partner?
It must be overwhelming.
You'd think, oh Crap,it's February in Tokyo.
What are we gonna do?
And That's a force for growth But howmuch time can you spend with each artist
if you spoke to each one of them an hour?
(06:41):
A week, which doesn't seem like much as adealer talking and artists they work with.
That's 60 hours.
That's five, 12 hour days.
That's the old school.
When I had my gallery, I talked to everyartist every day at 10 or 15 artists.
That's the
Jeff Poe (06:55):
old school, but that doesn't really happen as much anymore.
There's liaisons who deal withthe, with the artist and that's
what the hell is that term?
Well, no, that's the way it goes.
You don't have the time for it.
Yeah.
Of course you'd reachout and talk to artists.
You go over and do studio visits.
You hang out.
But, you know, once thegallery gets larger, you just
don't have the time for it.
Because the infrastructure needsto keep moving forward, you can't
(07:16):
just like, spend all your time.
That's the beauty of having a young, smallgallery, is you can actually really focus.
Once things start to get larger, itbecomes more difficult, like you said.
Oh God, August is coming up in Tokyo,which is like the worst time of the year.
Who are we going to throw in there?
Like what's going on?
You know, those things, they need to bestrategized a year ahead, longer, so you
(07:37):
can kind of figure things out and howthings are going to wind up unfolding,
you know, and then the art fairs playinto it now and it's complicated.
Once it gets bigger, it becomesmuch, much more complicated.
Josh Baer (07:47):
But isn't it also true that the bigger you get.
You know, when it was just you and Timmaybe, you were doing the shipping and he
was doing the accounting and one of youwas writing the press release, another
one of you was cleaning the bathroom.
That was all time taken away from art.
So once you're a mega gallery andyou're the owner, isn't it also true
(08:09):
that you might be spending actuallymore time dealing with art and the
artist because you're doing less timeof all the other necessary things?
Jeff Poe (08:17):
Not necessarily.
No, not when it starts to get so big.
Uh uh.
No, you know, that's a problem It's likeyou get away from what you initially
got into it for you know You windup not having as much time for the
artists and you wind up having to dealmore with like I said Infrastructure
strategies, you know, I basicallydid the back of the house stuff.
(08:41):
That's also a huge advantage thatwe had over most galleries, is
that we had this partnership andthat we did disparate things.
Our kind of overlap,subset, wasn't that much.
So we were able to actually kind ofdivide and conquer in a certain sense.
And I think it really
Josh Baer (08:59):
worked.
So going forward, are you going to beable to do just the things you like to do?
Yes.
Or are you going to be justlike, hiking in Malibu?
Jeff Poe (09:10):
That's a thing I like to do.
I mean, yes, and of course I'll stillbe involved with art and artists.
I don't know exactly whatthat looks like right now.
You know, as I said publicly, I didthe, you know, the real estate for
the galleries always, and I like doingreal estate, so I'm going to do that.
I'm just going to be able to...
Not have to think about what we'regoing to be programming in 24
Will Griffith (09:35):
after the break We'll hear from Jeff about the difficulties
of keeping up with the competitionas a gallery owner in the new era of
the art world This episode is broughtto you by art and tech innovator
TR lab TR lab partners with artistsFoundations and institutions to develop
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(09:58):
com to see how TRLab is fusing blockchaintechnology with fine art expertise
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Josh Baer (10:08):
The art world is a prudish place and a gossipy place.
What's been the reaction from theartists you work with, your friends,
and like, uh, the peanut gallery?
Jeff Poe (10:20):
Absolute complete support.
I mean, not only for myself,but also for Tim and Matt and
the gallery moving forward.
Like I said, we're all wired differently.
So there's like this, this kindof shock, like, why would I leave?
You know, why wouldn't I?
I mean, it's just like, it's like,I don't need to do this anymore.
And if I'm not getting enjoymentfrom it, it's just like, that's
Josh Baer (10:44):
why I wrote.
Before this, when is enough enough?
When do you have enough money, enoughfame, enough challenge, enough creativity,
that I think being a gallerist, youreally have to commit yourself to,
you're almost a fiduciary for the artist,to them first, it's very challenging,
(11:04):
physically, emotionally, health wise.
It's like, why wouldn'tyou, you know, take the win?
Jeff Poe (11:11):
Yeah, to be constantly at service, is difficult.
Yes.
And that's basically what galleristsare, and they're serving the artist,
they're serving the collector, they'reserving their staff to make sure
that they're, everybody's together.
I mean, it's a lot,it's a lot, it's a lot.
Josh Baer (11:28):
What about the competition for keeping and getting artists?
That seems like a never ending battle.
Jeff Poe (11:36):
I find that more of a New York centric You know, especially like
what happened today or yesterday, Iguess, with Beauvais leaving Zorner for
Gagosian and there's chatter about it.
Like, why would that happen?
You know, LA never really did that.
We don't steal from other galleries.
Now it's an international situationand you know, that happens.
Josh Baer (11:59):
Even if you're Barbara Gladstone or Maren Goodman, you're
fighting for new artists every day.
That hamster wheel of thatis how to still be relevant.
Isn't that kind of one of the biggestchallenges of a contemporary gallery?
Jeff Poe (12:14):
We started this conversation talking about, you
know, kind of music and shit.
And I was in punk bands and the gallery'smotto was play the game, change the rules.
That's what we were going to do.
We were going to do everythingthat was right, everything
that we were supposed to do.
But then we were going to showMerikami and somehow get in
statements because we wrote somethingthat nobody had ever seen before.
(12:35):
And then get in there.
Josh Baer (12:36):
Statements being Art Basel.
Yeah.
Jeff Poe (12:38):
And, you know, do this insane show, which, you know, broke the bank,
go for broke and see what happens.
Just not do it in a certainway that was supposed to be.
Done.
We were going to do thingsa little bit differently.
Come from LA, not beassholes, not be intimidated.
(12:59):
There was a lot of intimidationin those early years towards us.
That was kind of like, what the, totallystunning, but we never backed down.
Now what's interesting is,is that the rules are gone.
The way things used tobe, they are totally gone.
Josh Baer (13:16):
Give me a, for instance.
Jeff Poe (13:18):
It's just not the way it used to be.
For instance, museums aren'tas important any longer.
Criticism is out the fucking door.
Nobody gives a shit or reads.
Artists have careers thatlast five months, six months.
You got the Long Museumselling at auction.
I mean, these are all things thatused to be like, you know, everybody
clutching their pearls and saying, Ohdear, now it's like, this is normal.
(13:43):
This is what happens all the time.
You know, artists wouldstay with their dealers.
For decades.
Were there contracts then?
No, now there's contracts every day.
People suing each other,then not that much now.
Yes, I mean, look at Richard,look at Prince with Instagram
and what's going on with that.
Everything is kind of exploded.
It's almost like it used to be kindof contained and then entropy kind of
(14:05):
took hold and now it's all lukewarm.
And all the old modelsare kind of thrown out the
door.
Josh Baer (14:12):
Well, again, it comes back to money and greed, and I, for a while,
I thought, well, if everybody's makingmore money, why don't they behave better?
Because they have enough.
And in fact, it seems to go the other way.
It's like, the more you have, themore you want, and the worse you can
behave, because it's about money.
(14:32):
Isn't all the way you said aboutthe rules come back to money?
Yeah,
Jeff Poe (14:36):
it does and connoisseurships out the door, you know, I mean
that used to be a big part of it,too And it's like it's just shot.
Josh Baer (14:44):
Weren't you a bit naive in some ways at the same time?
thinking like Murkami is interestingbecause I think of what he did that
was kind of his exceptional which wasthe Louis Vuitton store at his show
at mocha and that seemed radical andcrazy at the time and now that seems
like Louis Vuitton's got a differentartist bag every three months.
Jeff Poe (15:09):
Right.
Schimmel had a lot to dowith that, by the way.
Josh Baer (15:11):
I would say more than half of it.
As chief
Will Griffith (15:14):
curator of MoCA Los Angeles, Paul Schimmel
invited Louis Vuitton to installa boutique in the Takashi Murakami
retrospective he organized in 2007.
But it's,
Josh Baer (15:24):
what would seem radical then is normalized now.
Right.
Jeff Poe (15:29):
That's again, it's like what I'm saying, it's like things
have just shifted and changed andhow do you stay on top of the game?
Will Griffith (15:37):
After the break, Jeff and Josh talk about the differences between
gallerists, dealers, and advisors.
And what makes peoplesuccessful in each role?
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(16:00):
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Jeff Poe (16:15):
What happens to the new iteration of like Goodman or Paula?
You know, what does that look likeas those galleries that were so
significant kind of shift and change?
You know, what steps up?
Or you look at somebody like Arne.
Will Griffith (16:29):
Arnie Glimcher founded Pace Gallery, while Paula
Cooper and Marion Goodman foundedgalleries under their own names.
Jeff Poe (16:36):
And I'm talking about, you know, the older generation.
But Arnie, who's a fucking genius, isstill absolutely, completely curious, and
opens up this small space down the street.
I mean, that's a reallysuper interesting...
Like reiteration of whathe's done over the years.
It's almost like he's circling backto his early, early days, literally
(16:59):
by taking the name of the gallery.
Josh Baer (17:02):
Well, I think what keeps me optimistic is that people really succeed.
They actually love art.
So Arnie's doing thatbecause he loves art.
And whether it's, you know, TobiasMeyer, when he was at Sotheby's
and all the talk, he loves art.
Larry, he loves art.
Larry
Will Griffith (17:22):
Gagosian founded Gagosian Gallery.
Josh Baer (17:25):
And the people, they, they have all, many characteristics, but one
characteristic that when people succeedin this business have is they love art.
Do you think that's trueor not true anymore?
Jeff Poe (17:36):
No, I think that the people that succeed...
They love art, but they love somethingelse too, which is the artist.
If you're a dealer, you have to love theartist because that's where it comes from.
Like art consultants lovethe art and the money.
Do they love the artist?
Don't give a shit.
Art dealers, successful ones love the
Josh Baer (17:54):
artists.
Well, do you usegallerists and art dealer?
Interchangeably.
I mean, that's a term thattook off 20 or 30 years ago.
Gallerist to be a much higherlevel than, you know, somebody who
flogs a third rate Frankenthaler.
I've never
Jeff Poe (18:07):
liked it.
I mean, you know, art dealer ofgallerist, we're art dealers.
We deal in art, but Iknow what you're saying.
I mean, just in terms of the language,you know, yes, then gallerist
would be more towards loving theartist than an art dealer would be
towards loving the art, you know.
Well,
Josh Baer (18:21):
since I was an art dealer for a long time, and I'm an art
advisor, what does that make me?
Jeff Poe (18:26):
I think you love the art, and I think you love the money,
but I think successful people whoown galleries love the artist.
Barbara Gladstone loves the artist.
Arne Glimcher loves the artist.
I guess Larry loves the artist.
Some of them.
Right.
Tim loves the artist.
(18:47):
You know, I mean, that's the difference.
Josh Baer (18:49):
And I would say for myself, I got to a position where
that wasn't healthy for me, what Ihad to give because that love is a
bit somewhat of a one way street.
Mm hmm often and then I turnedit into Yes, I want to love
the object more because there'sa lot of artists that I love.
I just don't love their art Right,and there's some artists that I really
(19:12):
don't like and I love their art,right I mean, can you, did you work
with artists that you didn't like?
Um,
Jeff Poe (19:19):
not really.
No,
Josh Baer (19:21):
no.
Did you keep artists too longbecause you like them sometimes?
Jeff Poe (19:25):
Absolutely.
100%.
Do you regret that?
No.
I mean, the greatest success and thething that makes me the happiest about.
The legacy of the gallery was working withthe artists that we worked with from the
very beginning, like Dave Muller and SamDurant and Annie Galaccio and seeing them
(19:48):
get houses, have families, have lives.
We all grew
Josh Baer (19:51):
together.
Could you name a moment that you're mostproud of, of like an artist career or
Jeff Poe (20:00):
artwork?
I can't really pin it on like one moment.
No,
Josh Baer (20:04):
I can't.
Maybe not one moment.
Or one artist,
Jeff Poe (20:07):
or one show, or one situation.
I really can't.
There were so many.
I mean, there
Josh Baer (20:13):
were a lot.
For me, I identify Henry Taylor with you.
And I remember years ago, you did a boothin the Armory and it's like, You need to
buy one of these Henry Taylors for one ofmy clients who collected work in that way.
And I didn't get it right then.
You may have thought I was blowingyou off, but I was listening.
And then you did a show in L.
A.
maybe six years ago in the gallerythat was, like, full of installation
(20:37):
and paintings that blew my mind.
And now you see him at MoCA and all this.
I think what an achievement to have workedwith somebody for helping develop that.
That's the kind of thing an advisorcan't do, and that those are the moments.
That I think get harder to dowhen you have a mega institution.
(20:59):
It is.
Jeff Poe (21:00):
It's harder.
I mean, the one that was hard interms of that was the Colescott
situation because it was in the state.
Will Griffith (21:09):
Known for his satirical approach, Robert Colescott was the
first African American painter chosenfor a solo exhibition in the U.
S.
Pavilion at the Venice Biennale.
And
Jeff Poe (21:19):
that's, that, having to like, re educate and create a market and, you
know, do the right thing for the estate.
That really did honestly come froma place of like, you know what,
we've got enough, we gotta like takecare of this work, we gotta take
care of this legacy and not fuck it
Josh Baer (21:38):
up.
I don't know when youstarted to work with them.
I remember it was
17 in 1997, maybe being in Venicewhen he did the American pavilion.
And I thought, man, theEuropeans, they don't get this.
They're just seeing this caricatures of,you know, sort of an anteromima thing.
(21:58):
This is missing the mark.
Like.
Rarely has the mark been somisunderstood, and, uh, I thought, Whoa,
that's, that was not that long ago.
Yeah,
Jeff Poe (22:10):
but as an art dealer or a gallerist, whichever term you want
to take, the responsibility thatcomes with working within a state is
a different subset, different way ofworking, a different way of thinking.
I liked it because at thatpoint, it was challenging.
It wasn't the normal, this wassomething where you had to go back.
And thankfully there was so much materialto work with, and there still is.
(22:34):
To be able to drive the narrative.
At the same time, too, to dowhat we're supposed to do,
which is drive a market, too.
It was really, um, refreshing for me.
Will Griffith (22:46):
Join us after the break as Jeff talks about how to deal with
misbehaving artists, and how sellingart has evolved from hawking works
to placing them with top collectors.
This episode is brought to youby art and tech innovator TRLAB.
TRLAB partners with artists,foundations, and institutions to
develop unique digital art experienceswith an educational mission.
(23:09):
Visit trlab.
com to see how TRLAB is fusing blockchaintechnology with fine art expertise
to pioneer the future of collecting.
Josh Baer (23:20):
And remember, In 1990, I hired a museum curator, well
known, to be my gallery director.
She lasted about three months.
She never sold anything.
She couldn't pick up the phone.
When I fired her, she said, well, I don'tunderstand the goals of the gallery.
And I said, history and money.
It seemed pretty simple.
(23:41):
And that, that's what a gallery'sgoals are for their artists.
What sort of code wordswould you use for...
Mission of the
Jeff Poe (23:49):
gallery to take care of the artist and just do the right thing.
That's what we always did You justdidn't want to fuck anybody up.
You didn't want to screw anyone overyou wanted to pay them You know I
worked for galleries for years beforeand there was a gallery store work
for Looking in the 80s and I saw him
Josh Baer (24:08):
get a shot to get dropped with me No, good.
Okay.
Jeff Poe (24:12):
I saw him.
I saw him get a check for 10 grand andhe needed the whole 10 grand He didn't
give the artist five grand and thenhe was in the hole and that was a lot
of money for him And then well now heneeded to sell basically 20 grand to be
able to give him back the 10 grand I sawhim get in a hole really rather quickly
And when we opened the gallery, I justsaid to him like the moment we get a
(24:34):
check We're taking half of it, it's notours, and we're gonna, like, that's it.
And that's why we fucking ate shit.
Fifteen, twelve to fifteen hundreddollars a month for six years.
And put everything back into the gallery.
I mean, it was just really, really tough.
Let me
Josh Baer (24:50):
ask you different questions, like, what about when the artist
doesn't want to do the right thing?
You've been in that position.
I've
Jeff Poe (24:58):
seen that.
Well, haven't you?
Haven't you gone into an artist'sstudio when you had a gallery
and you saw something that waslike, what the fuck are you doing?
Josh Baer (25:05):
Yes, and uh, my regrets are, I wasn't forceful enough
to say, we're not showing this.
Or I'm not supporting that.
Or, I, I've seen artists justcompletely lie about what happened.
And the gallerist is inas horrible spot as...
My job is to defend andprotect the artists.
And what if they're wrong?
(25:25):
Would you...
You must have been in that spot.
Of course.
And then what?
Well, you
Jeff Poe (25:31):
gently maneuver them into seeing light, hopefully.
I mean, and they can,and I think they will.
And I think...
The other thing is, is over time,as you have a gallery and you get a
little bit more respect as a dealer,as having the space, then the artists
will listen a little bit more.
(25:51):
But when you're younger,
Josh Baer (25:52):
it's harder.
And I think also, that's wherehaving a partner really helps.
Of like, talk that through, maybeI'm seeing this the wrong way.
Not so much that it's two on one,but you get verification that, wait a
second, I don't want to make that move.
Even though they're trying to push me thatway, we have to push back even at that.
(26:15):
And I'd say a lot of the mistakesI made were from being alone.
And not being, you know, asyoung, but also not being
strong enough to, to say no.
Jeff Poe (26:25):
Yeah.
And with us, it was never,you know, good cop, bad cop.
It was more like.
Bad cop, bad cop.
No, no, it was, it wasgood cop, gentle bad cop.
And you were.
Well, we either, it was interchangeabledepending upon who it was.
You know, we, we, we had to do that.
Josh Baer (26:40):
Another question about just partnership.
Do you find that half the people onlywant to deal with you and half the
people only want to deal with Tim?
Jeff Poe (26:47):
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that's,that's natural, you know?
And also too, it's like, there'slanguage based stuff too.
It's like a lot of the Asian artistslike can't talk to them and Tim can,
you know, it's like, that's justthe way it works, but that's great.
You know, it's like you go deal with that.
And I mean,
Josh Baer (27:02):
every collector is like, you know, your specialty
is young hedge fund guys.
And the other one is like,you know, third generation.
Well, I find that the other advantageof partnership is you find pretty.
quickly, who's comfortablewith what group.
Yeah,
Jeff Poe (27:18):
oh, absolutely.
And, you know, even in the, likethe higher levels, I mean, there are
people that would talk to me morethan Tim or whatever, back and forth.
But I don't like selling art.
I really don't.
I don't enjoy it.
Are you good at it?
Yeah.
I used to be really good at it and now.
Well now the thing that'sfucked up as another thing.
It's like we go back to thatquestion of like wide house,
what, what, what, what happened?
(27:39):
What, what are the changes thathave happened over the years?
And one of them is, is thatpeople don't sell art anymore.
They place it, you get a list.
You know, you throw out a PDF, 15 peoplecome back for the same fucking thing.
And then you just go through the listand you go, okay, well, and then who
are you going to place this with?
You don't have to actually stand in frontof the work any longer and talk about it.
There's no, that's gone.
(27:59):
It's shot.
So now it's, you know, it's becomebasically hyper driven commodity based.
And that part of the business isover unless you're back to having
a small space and, or business
Josh Baer (28:14):
gets tough again.
Jeff Poe (28:16):
No, even with that, I don't think so because now the business is too,
there's, there's way too much going on.
There's way, no, it's too, thefucking genie's out of the bottle.
That never goes back and that's okay.
It's just the way it's evolution.
Well, it goes
Josh Baer (28:29):
back if there's 10 paintings and five people want them.
It goes,
Jeff Poe (28:33):
if there's 10 paintings and five people want them, yes, then you have
to actually like figure that one out.
Yes.
And that does happen sometimes,but not like it used to be.
I mean, when you open a gallery,if it was 1994, 1995, and people
walk in You know, we would seewe're not, we weren't in New York.
We would see 10 people on a Saturday.
(28:54):
That
Josh Baer (28:54):
would be it.
And then I told her who Manny walkedin and said, I want to buy that penny.
You'd say, where do I invoice you?
Jeff Poe (29:00):
I would not, but in those days it was much harder and you actually had
to position the work in a way withina narrative that you could explain
and you were comfortable with that.
Touched on whatever you felt liketouching on, be it history or, you
know, just in that place, surface
Josh Baer (29:15):
of the painting and that placing of artworks.
Do you feel compelled to do a sort ofKYC of the ethics of the collectors?
What does that mean?
That means that I had an artistsaid, well, this guy wants to buy
my work that he was out at for beinglike, maybe he's an arms dealer.
Should I sell to him?
Jeff Poe (29:34):
Right.
That was talked about like money is money.
Right.
Larry was like, he said that in theNew Yorker thing, you know, just make
sure it's clean or some shit like that.
Yes.
There are people thatare, that are bad actors.
We haven't sold to badactors that we know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that you try to mitigate thosesituations, you know, when you're a
dealer that this on the sales end of it.
Josh Baer (29:55):
Well, you're mitigating it also a little bit by the people
at the front of the line or thepeople buying every show, right?
Or the people at the front of the line,the most famous and the biggest now.
Jeff Poe (30:05):
That's the sales part of it.
Like I said, I didn't do sales thatmuch in the last many few years.
It's like, I just don't enjoy
Josh Baer (30:12):
it.
And I think that is the thing aboutLarry is if he gets a message, I
sold a print for a thousand bucks.
It's like, yes, whether it's a thousandbucks or 10 million bucks, I think
he gets a charge every time he getsa little ding on his spreadsheet or
whatever, that anything was sold.
And that's kind of likea constant with him for.
(30:35):
Well, that's for
Jeff Poe (30:35):
him, but I think that's a constant for any dealer that's successful.
But you're sort
Josh Baer (30:39):
of implying it wasn't for you.
Jeff Poe (30:40):
It wasn't for me, no.
No.
It's like, what wound up happening withthe success of the gallery was like
a byproduct of, it wasn't the goal.
It was really like, let's justfucking put on a show and open it up.
And then, So you're back to your
Josh Baer (30:57):
punk rock days.
I'm definitely not doing that anymore.
But in your mind, youstill want to be Matt.
In a sense, and now you have time torecreate yourself in this vision that you
had of yourself as a young adult, right?
Well,
Jeff Poe (31:14):
it's, yeah, I mean, I was talking to Sam Durant when I told him
what was going on and he was the firstperson I called and I was like, Sam, you
know, you get to wake up every morningand be Sam and I get to wake up every
morning and I'm Jeff of Blum and Poewith 46 people I've got to employ and
60 artists I've got to take care of inthree spaces and all this other stuff.
(31:35):
So I don't, you know, I still don'tknow what that will feel like.
It's still not there yet.
It's not
Josh Baer (31:40):
clear.
Well, as I look to my next stages andwatching, you know, my mom is 94 and she's
still in the studio and what a luxury thatshe's able to like get up in the morning.
That's what she wants to do.
Believe me at 94.
I don't want to be riding underbitter McRobbie and that's like,
you know, a difference of being Sam.
(32:00):
And being Jeff and I think it'slike, you know, I just want to
say thank you for 30 years of whatyou've put in to this business.
It's been important to the artists,to the art world, to the public.
And we look forward to the next 30years of whatever that might be.
Even if it's like seeing youin some dive bar playing, you
(32:24):
know, heavy metal again, I'll go.
That will never
Jeff Poe (32:27):
happen.
Josh Baer (32:28):
I wouldn't really go, but...
Karaoke, maybe.
Karaoke, maybe.
I thought you gave upon all things Japanese.
Anything you'd like to, like, say onelast time to an audience so you don't
have to answer these questions 300
Jeff Poe (32:40):
times?
No, no, no.
You've been a sweetheart inviting me,I'm happy to be here, and, you know,
you've always been around the block, andI'm glad you're still around the block.
It's a good thing.
And also, too, in differentiterations, right?
I mean, that's just theway the art world is.
We all shift and change.
You have in good ways, you know,I'm sure you've been happy about
the path that's happened for you.
Josh Baer (33:02):
Thank you, Jeff, and we look forward to seeing you with a big smile
on your face every time we see you.
Jeff Poe (33:07):
Okay, thanks so much.
Will Griffith (33:11):
Thank you for listening to the Bare Facts Podcast, brought
to you by the leading news sourcefor the art world since 1994.
Our host is Josh Baer.
Our executive producer is Luyang Zhang.
I'm Will Griffith, our associate producer.
Our content advisor is Boliang Xin.
And our editing team is Mona Productions.
(33:32):
Special thanks to our guestfor this episode, Jeff Poe.
Subscribe today whereveryou get your podcasts.
And check back soon for futureepisodes as we unpack the inner
workings of the global art industrythrough exclusive, candid interviews
with key players in the business.
as they offer their perspectiveson art and the market in the U.
S., Asia, Europe, and beyond.
Hello, I'm Josh Baer and welcome to the Baer Faxt Podcast.
Today, we sit down with Jeff Poe, whorecently announced that he'll be stepping
back from his role as co founder ofBlum Poe Gallery after 30 years helping
to put LA on the map as an art city.
Jeff Poe (00:23):
The rules are gone.
The way things used to be.
They are totally gone.
Josh Baer (00:30):
Give me a for instance.
Jeff Poe (00:32):
It's just not the way it used to be.
For instance, museums aren'tas important any longer.
Criticism is out the fucking door.
Nobody gives a share of reads.
Artists have careers thatlast five months, six months.
You got the long museumselling at auction.
I mean, these are allthings that used to be like.
You know, everybody would be clutchingtheir pearls and saying, Oh dear,
(00:54):
now it's like, this is normal.
Will Griffith (00:59):
In this episode, we'll look back at Jeff's career helping build
Blum Poe, as he sheds light on how the artworld has evolved from an insider's club
to an international corporate industry.
First, Jeff explains why he decidedto step back from the gallery.
Josh Baer (01:16):
Jeff founded...
with his partner TimBlumenpo in the fall of 1994.
I don't know if you realize that'sjust maybe two months after I
closed the Josh Baer gallery.
So I kind of see you as like, youknow, my, uh, stepchildren that took
over the helm and right at the timewhen that we created the Baer Facts.
So welcome Jeff to our podcast.
(01:39):
Thanks for having me.
Let's get some of the, um,basics out of the way so we
can get into the nitty gritty.
Um, two things happened in the last month.
Um, you announced your newsituation with Blum Poe.
So I'd like you to explainwhat that is and why that is.
And we were interested also becauseat the same time I wrote an op
(02:01):
ed talking about when is enough.
enough for people in the artworld, in the art business.
So first, what exactly happenedin your words, and then why?
Jeff Poe (02:10):
Basically what was going on is Tim and I saw the forward movement
of the gallery in a different way.
And he wanted to push it one way.
I wanted to go another way.
I feel a lot of, uh, just a lot of thanksthat Tim is going to push it forward.
He's keeping the gallery together.
He's keeping the staff together.
He's keeping the artists together.
You know, nothing is going to change.
(02:32):
The only change is that I havestepped back and I'm just going
to move forward in different ways.
So that is what has happened, essentially.
I mean, and I'm thankfulfor Tim for continuing this.
Josh Baer (02:47):
I was at the Armory Fair today and I talked to one of my favorite
young dealers, Charlie Moffitt, andCharlie was saying and agreeing with
me that this is kind of a win for Jeff.
Well, as people are treating it likeit's your obituary or something nefarious
happened, it's, this is good news fromwhere he was sitting, where I was sitting.
(03:09):
Yeah,
Jeff Poe (03:09):
no, I totally agree.
I mean, look, we all have differentmotives of what we do in this business.
And yeah, I, to kind of swingaround to what you were saying a
second ago, You know, what's enough?
Like, how far do you needto actually go with it?
And I know, for a lot of people, thismove that I'm making seems completely
(03:32):
unusual and strange, but from where I'msitting, I mean, it's completely natural.
The way that this is being laid out,I feel is incredibly elegant and
proper and correct, and just, I'mgonna move forward in a different way.
You know, I said, in the pressrelease, I just want to make my
life basically kind of easier.
(03:53):
And having a gallery, as you know,can be a stressful situation.
And, uh, I'm just happy to be ableto, like, take a step back from that.
Josh Baer (04:04):
To be sort of more specific, it's not waking up at 5 in the morning
thinking, My God, I've got payroll of50 people, I've got 12 Zoom meetings.
What kind of thoughts were going throughyour head that you wanted to clear out?
Yes,
Jeff Poe (04:19):
there is a lot to deal with on a day to day basis from the gallery.
There's also a lot to deal with interms of strategy moving forward
and trying to figure out how allthose pieces are going to work.
Because it's three for us, threegalleries, you know, 40 something
people, 60 artists, it's a lot.
And I don't know, like, the beingable to like kind of let go of
(04:42):
that, I'm not sure what's goingto wind up happening for myself in
terms of how I'll feel about that.
Right now I'm still kind of in it, youknow, still thinking about unwinding
things and dealing with the gallery.
So it's going to be a, it's a process,you know, and, and for right now I, I
(05:04):
can't actually anticipate what's going to
Josh Baer (05:07):
be.
But gallerists are eithergoing forward or they're going
backwards at any moment, I think.
Do you agree with that?
And the effort to keep it goingforward can be really overwhelming?
Jeff Poe (05:19):
I think it winds up for every gallerist is different.
You know, who knows whattheir strategies are.
Everybody has a differentstrategy for ourselves.
It's really, of course, it always swungback to the artist and trying to do
the best that we can and be able tohave a proper platform to be able to
show the work and do the right thing.
Josh Baer (05:35):
Well, for the artists, they're either going forward
or they're being left behind.
So the pressure from them is,where's my next museum show?
When's my next big this,my next commission?
They, they can't just stay in stasis.
Right?
No,
Jeff Poe (05:51):
of course not.
But I mean, the galleries, I mean,you said, does a gallery need to go
forward or does a gallery actually,can it stay just static or, you
know, the fear of going backwards?
I don't know how people feel.
I only know how I've dealt with it.
And yes, I wanted to kind of like keepthings together, not really interested
(06:12):
in this empire kind of building.
I find that completely strange.
Um, but that's my own personal strategy.
Josh Baer (06:20):
But how does a gallery deal with 60 artists, two owners and a partner?
It must be overwhelming.
You'd think, oh Crap,it's February in Tokyo.
What are we gonna do?
And That's a force for growth But howmuch time can you spend with each artist
if you spoke to each one of them an hour?
(06:41):
A week, which doesn't seem like much as adealer talking and artists they work with.
That's 60 hours.
That's five, 12 hour days.
That's the old school.
When I had my gallery, I talked to everyartist every day at 10 or 15 artists.
That's the
Jeff Poe (06:55):
old school, but that doesn't really happen as much anymore.
There's liaisons who deal withthe, with the artist and that's
what the hell is that term?
Well, no, that's the way it goes.
You don't have the time for it.
Yeah.
Of course you'd reachout and talk to artists.
You go over and do studio visits.
You hang out.
But, you know, once thegallery gets larger, you just
don't have the time for it.
Because the infrastructure needsto keep moving forward, you can't
(07:16):
just like, spend all your time.
That's the beauty of having a young, smallgallery, is you can actually really focus.
Once things start to get larger, itbecomes more difficult, like you said.
Oh God, August is coming up in Tokyo,which is like the worst time of the year.
Who are we going to throw in there?
Like what's going on?
You know, those things, they need to bestrategized a year ahead, longer, so you
(07:37):
can kind of figure things out and howthings are going to wind up unfolding,
you know, and then the art fairs playinto it now and it's complicated.
Once it gets bigger, it becomesmuch, much more complicated.
Josh Baer (07:47):
But isn't it also true that the bigger you get.
You know, when it was just you and Timmaybe, you were doing the shipping and he
was doing the accounting and one of youwas writing the press release, another
one of you was cleaning the bathroom.
That was all time taken away from art.
So once you're a mega gallery andyou're the owner, isn't it also true
(08:09):
that you might be spending actuallymore time dealing with art and the
artist because you're doing less timeof all the other necessary things?
Jeff Poe (08:17):
Not necessarily.
No, not when it starts to get so big.
Uh uh.
No, you know, that's a problem It's likeyou get away from what you initially
got into it for you know You windup not having as much time for the
artists and you wind up having to dealmore with like I said Infrastructure
strategies, you know, I basicallydid the back of the house stuff.
(08:41):
That's also a huge advantage thatwe had over most galleries, is
that we had this partnership andthat we did disparate things.
Our kind of overlap,subset, wasn't that much.
So we were able to actually kind ofdivide and conquer in a certain sense.
And I think it really
Josh Baer (08:59):
worked.
So going forward, are you going to beable to do just the things you like to do?
Yes.
Or are you going to be justlike, hiking in Malibu?
Jeff Poe (09:10):
That's a thing I like to do.
I mean, yes, and of course I'll stillbe involved with art and artists.
I don't know exactly whatthat looks like right now.
You know, as I said publicly, I didthe, you know, the real estate for
the galleries always, and I like doingreal estate, so I'm going to do that.
I'm just going to be able to...
Not have to think about what we'regoing to be programming in 24
Will Griffith (09:35):
after the break We'll hear from Jeff about the difficulties
of keeping up with the competitionas a gallery owner in the new era of
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(09:58):
com to see how TRLab is fusing blockchaintechnology with fine art expertise
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Josh Baer (10:08):
The art world is a prudish place and a gossipy place.
What's been the reaction from theartists you work with, your friends,
and like, uh, the peanut gallery?
Jeff Poe (10:20):
Absolute complete support.
I mean, not only for myself,but also for Tim and Matt and
the gallery moving forward.
Like I said, we're all wired differently.
So there's like this, this kindof shock, like, why would I leave?
You know, why wouldn't I?
I mean, it's just like, it's like,I don't need to do this anymore.
And if I'm not getting enjoymentfrom it, it's just like, that's
Josh Baer (10:44):
why I wrote.
Before this, when is enough enough?
When do you have enough money, enoughfame, enough challenge, enough creativity,
that I think being a gallerist, youreally have to commit yourself to,
you're almost a fiduciary for the artist,to them first, it's very challenging,
(11:04):
physically, emotionally, health wise.
It's like, why wouldn'tyou, you know, take the win?
Jeff Poe (11:11):
Yeah, to be constantly at service, is difficult.
Yes.
And that's basically what galleristsare, and they're serving the artist,
they're serving the collector, they'reserving their staff to make sure
that they're, everybody's together.
I mean, it's a lot,it's a lot, it's a lot.
Josh Baer (11:28):
What about the competition for keeping and getting artists?
That seems like a never ending battle.
Jeff Poe (11:36):
I find that more of a New York centric You know, especially like
what happened today or yesterday, Iguess, with Beauvais leaving Zorner for
Gagosian and there's chatter about it.
Like, why would that happen?
You know, LA never really did that.
We don't steal from other galleries.
Now it's an international situationand you know, that happens.
Josh Baer (11:59):
Even if you're Barbara Gladstone or Maren Goodman, you're
fighting for new artists every day.
That hamster wheel of thatis how to still be relevant.
Isn't that kind of one of the biggestchallenges of a contemporary gallery?
Jeff Poe (12:14):
We started this conversation talking about, you
know, kind of music and shit.
And I was in punk bands and the gallery'smotto was play the game, change the rules.
That's what we were going to do.
We were going to do everythingthat was right, everything
that we were supposed to do.
But then we were going to showMerikami and somehow get in
statements because we wrote somethingthat nobody had ever seen before.
(12:35):
And then get in there.
Josh Baer (12:36):
Statements being Art Basel.
Yeah.
Jeff Poe (12:38):
And, you know, do this insane show, which, you know, broke the bank,
go for broke and see what happens.
Just not do it in a certainway that was supposed to be.
Done.
We were going to do thingsa little bit differently.
Come from LA, not beassholes, not be intimidated.
(12:59):
There was a lot of intimidationin those early years towards us.
That was kind of like, what the, totallystunning, but we never backed down.
Now what's interesting is,is that the rules are gone.
The way things used tobe, they are totally gone.
Josh Baer (13:16):
Give me a, for instance.
Jeff Poe (13:18):
It's just not the way it used to be.
For instance, museums aren'tas important any longer.
Criticism is out the fucking door.
Nobody gives a shit or reads.
Artists have careers thatlast five months, six months.
You got the Long Museumselling at auction.
I mean, these are all things thatused to be like, you know, everybody
clutching their pearls and saying, Ohdear, now it's like, this is normal.
(13:43):
This is what happens all the time.
You know, artists wouldstay with their dealers.
For decades.
Were there contracts then?
No, now there's contracts every day.
People suing each other,then not that much now.
Yes, I mean, look at Richard,look at Prince with Instagram
and what's going on with that.
Everything is kind of exploded.
It's almost like it used to be kindof contained and then entropy kind of
(14:05):
took hold and now it's all lukewarm.
And all the old modelsare kind of thrown out the
door.
Josh Baer (14:12):
Well, again, it comes back to money and greed, and I, for a while,
I thought, well, if everybody's makingmore money, why don't they behave better?
Because they have enough.
And in fact, it seems to go the other way.
It's like, the more you have, themore you want, and the worse you can
behave, because it's about money.
(14:32):
Isn't all the way you said aboutthe rules come back to money?
Yeah,
Jeff Poe (14:36):
it does and connoisseurships out the door, you know, I mean
that used to be a big part of it,too And it's like it's just shot.
Josh Baer (14:44):
Weren't you a bit naive in some ways at the same time?
thinking like Murkami is interestingbecause I think of what he did that
was kind of his exceptional which wasthe Louis Vuitton store at his show
at mocha and that seemed radical andcrazy at the time and now that seems
like Louis Vuitton's got a differentartist bag every three months.
Jeff Poe (15:09):
Right.
Schimmel had a lot to dowith that, by the way.
Josh Baer (15:11):
I would say more than half of it.
As chief
Will Griffith (15:14):
curator of MoCA Los Angeles, Paul Schimmel
invited Louis Vuitton to installa boutique in the Takashi Murakami
retrospective he organized in 2007.
But it's,
Josh Baer (15:24):
what would seem radical then is normalized now.
Right.
Jeff Poe (15:29):
That's again, it's like what I'm saying, it's like things
have just shifted and changed andhow do you stay on top of the game?
Will Griffith (15:37):
After the break, Jeff and Josh talk about the differences between
gallerists, dealers, and advisors.
And what makes peoplesuccessful in each role?
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(16:00):
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Jeff Poe (16:15):
What happens to the new iteration of like Goodman or Paula?
You know, what does that look likeas those galleries that were so
significant kind of shift and change?
You know, what steps up?
Or you look at somebody like Arne.
Will Griffith (16:29):
Arnie Glimcher founded Pace Gallery, while Paula
Cooper and Marion Goodman foundedgalleries under their own names.
Jeff Poe (16:36):
And I'm talking about, you know, the older generation.
But Arnie, who's a fucking genius, isstill absolutely, completely curious, and
opens up this small space down the street.
I mean, that's a reallysuper interesting...
Like reiteration of whathe's done over the years.
It's almost like he's circling backto his early, early days, literally
(16:59):
by taking the name of the gallery.
Josh Baer (17:02):
Well, I think what keeps me optimistic is that people really succeed.
They actually love art.
So Arnie's doing thatbecause he loves art.
And whether it's, you know, TobiasMeyer, when he was at Sotheby's
and all the talk, he loves art.
Larry, he loves art.
Larry
Will Griffith (17:22):
Gagosian founded Gagosian Gallery.
Josh Baer (17:25):
And the people, they, they have all, many characteristics, but one
characteristic that when people succeedin this business have is they love art.
Do you think that's trueor not true anymore?
Jeff Poe (17:36):
No, I think that the people that succeed...
They love art, but they love somethingelse too, which is the artist.
If you're a dealer, you have to love theartist because that's where it comes from.
Like art consultants lovethe art and the money.
Do they love the artist?
Don't give a shit.
Art dealers, successful ones love the
Josh Baer (17:54):
artists.
Well, do you usegallerists and art dealer?
Interchangeably.
I mean, that's a term thattook off 20 or 30 years ago.
Gallerist to be a much higherlevel than, you know, somebody who
flogs a third rate Frankenthaler.
I've never
Jeff Poe (18:07):
liked it.
I mean, you know, art dealer ofgallerist, we're art dealers.
We deal in art, but Iknow what you're saying.
I mean, just in terms of the language,you know, yes, then gallerist
would be more towards loving theartist than an art dealer would be
towards loving the art, you know.
Well,
Josh Baer (18:21):
since I was an art dealer for a long time, and I'm an art
advisor, what does that make me?
Jeff Poe (18:26):
I think you love the art, and I think you love the money,
but I think successful people whoown galleries love the artist.
Barbara Gladstone loves the artist.
Arne Glimcher loves the artist.
I guess Larry loves the artist.
Some of them.
Right.
Tim loves the artist.
(18:47):
You know, I mean, that's the difference.
Josh Baer (18:49):
And I would say for myself, I got to a position where
that wasn't healthy for me, what Ihad to give because that love is a
bit somewhat of a one way street.
Mm hmm often and then I turnedit into Yes, I want to love
the object more because there'sa lot of artists that I love.
I just don't love their art Right,and there's some artists that I really
(19:12):
don't like and I love their art,right I mean, can you, did you work
with artists that you didn't like?
Um,
Jeff Poe (19:19):
not really.
No,
Josh Baer (19:21):
no.
Did you keep artists too longbecause you like them sometimes?
Jeff Poe (19:25):
Absolutely.
100%.
Do you regret that?
No.
I mean, the greatest success and thething that makes me the happiest about.
The legacy of the gallery was working withthe artists that we worked with from the
very beginning, like Dave Muller and SamDurant and Annie Galaccio and seeing them
(19:48):
get houses, have families, have lives.
We all grew
Josh Baer (19:51):
together.
Could you name a moment that you're mostproud of, of like an artist career or
Jeff Poe (20:00):
artwork?
I can't really pin it on like one moment.
No,
Josh Baer (20:04):
I can't.
Maybe not one moment.
Or one artist,
Jeff Poe (20:07):
or one show, or one situation.
I really can't.
There were so many.
I mean, there
Josh Baer (20:13):
were a lot.
For me, I identify Henry Taylor with you.
And I remember years ago, you did a boothin the Armory and it's like, You need to
buy one of these Henry Taylors for one ofmy clients who collected work in that way.
And I didn't get it right then.
You may have thought I was blowingyou off, but I was listening.
And then you did a show in L.
A.
maybe six years ago in the gallerythat was, like, full of installation
(20:37):
and paintings that blew my mind.
And now you see him at MoCA and all this.
I think what an achievement to have workedwith somebody for helping develop that.
That's the kind of thing an advisorcan't do, and that those are the moments.
That I think get harder to dowhen you have a mega institution.
(20:59):
It is.
Jeff Poe (21:00):
It's harder.
I mean, the one that was hard interms of that was the Colescott
situation because it was in the state.
Will Griffith (21:09):
Known for his satirical approach, Robert Colescott was the
first African American painter chosenfor a solo exhibition in the U.
S.
Pavilion at the Venice Biennale.
And
Jeff Poe (21:19):
that's, that, having to like, re educate and create a market and, you
know, do the right thing for the estate.
That really did honestly come froma place of like, you know what,
we've got enough, we gotta like takecare of this work, we gotta take
care of this legacy and not fuck it
Josh Baer (21:38):
up.
I don't know when youstarted to work with them.
I remember it was
17 in 1997, maybe being in Venicewhen he did the American pavilion.
And I thought, man, theEuropeans, they don't get this.
They're just seeing this caricatures of,you know, sort of an anteromima thing.
(21:58):
This is missing the mark.
Like.
Rarely has the mark been somisunderstood, and, uh, I thought, Whoa,
that's, that was not that long ago.
Yeah,
Jeff Poe (22:10):
but as an art dealer or a gallerist, whichever term you want
to take, the responsibility thatcomes with working within a state is
a different subset, different way ofworking, a different way of thinking.
I liked it because at thatpoint, it was challenging.
It wasn't the normal, this wassomething where you had to go back.
And thankfully there was so much materialto work with, and there still is.
(22:34):
To be able to drive the narrative.
At the same time, too, to dowhat we're supposed to do,
which is drive a market, too.
It was really, um, refreshing for me.
Will Griffith (22:46):
Join us after the break as Jeff talks about how to deal with
misbehaving artists, and how sellingart has evolved from hawking works
to placing them with top collectors.
This episode is brought to youby art and tech innovator TRLAB.
TRLAB partners with artists,foundations, and institutions to
develop unique digital art experienceswith an educational mission.
(23:09):
Visit trlab.
com to see how TRLAB is fusing blockchaintechnology with fine art expertise
to pioneer the future of collecting.
Josh Baer (23:20):
And remember, In 1990, I hired a museum curator, well
known, to be my gallery director.
She lasted about three months.
She never sold anything.
She couldn't pick up the phone.
When I fired her, she said, well, I don'tunderstand the goals of the gallery.
And I said, history and money.
It seemed pretty simple.
(23:41):
And that, that's what a gallery'sgoals are for their artists.
What sort of code wordswould you use for...
Mission of the
Jeff Poe (23:49):
gallery to take care of the artist and just do the right thing.
That's what we always did You justdidn't want to fuck anybody up.
You didn't want to screw anyone overyou wanted to pay them You know I
worked for galleries for years beforeand there was a gallery store work
for Looking in the 80s and I saw him
Josh Baer (24:08):
get a shot to get dropped with me No, good.
Okay.
Jeff Poe (24:12):
I saw him.
I saw him get a check for 10 grand andhe needed the whole 10 grand He didn't
give the artist five grand and thenhe was in the hole and that was a lot
of money for him And then well now heneeded to sell basically 20 grand to be
able to give him back the 10 grand I sawhim get in a hole really rather quickly
And when we opened the gallery, I justsaid to him like the moment we get a
(24:34):
check We're taking half of it, it's notours, and we're gonna, like, that's it.
And that's why we fucking ate shit.
Fifteen, twelve to fifteen hundreddollars a month for six years.
And put everything back into the gallery.
I mean, it was just really, really tough.
Let me
Josh Baer (24:50):
ask you different questions, like, what about when the artist
doesn't want to do the right thing?
You've been in that position.
I've
Jeff Poe (24:58):
seen that.
Well, haven't you?
Haven't you gone into an artist'sstudio when you had a gallery
and you saw something that waslike, what the fuck are you doing?
Josh Baer (25:05):
Yes, and uh, my regrets are, I wasn't forceful enough
to say, we're not showing this.
Or I'm not supporting that.
Or, I, I've seen artists justcompletely lie about what happened.
And the gallerist is inas horrible spot as...
My job is to defend andprotect the artists.
And what if they're wrong?
(25:25):
Would you...
You must have been in that spot.
Of course.
And then what?
Well, you
Jeff Poe (25:31):
gently maneuver them into seeing light, hopefully.
I mean, and they can,and I think they will.
And I think...
The other thing is, is over time,as you have a gallery and you get a
little bit more respect as a dealer,as having the space, then the artists
will listen a little bit more.
(25:51):
But when you're younger,
Josh Baer (25:52):
it's harder.
And I think also, that's wherehaving a partner really helps.
Of like, talk that through, maybeI'm seeing this the wrong way.
Not so much that it's two on one,but you get verification that, wait a
second, I don't want to make that move.
Even though they're trying to push me thatway, we have to push back even at that.
(26:15):
And I'd say a lot of the mistakesI made were from being alone.
And not being, you know, asyoung, but also not being
strong enough to, to say no.
Jeff Poe (26:25):
Yeah.
And with us, it was never,you know, good cop, bad cop.
It was more like.
Bad cop, bad cop.
No, no, it was, it wasgood cop, gentle bad cop.
And you were.
Well, we either, it was interchangeabledepending upon who it was.
You know, we, we, we had to do that.
Josh Baer (26:40):
Another question about just partnership.
Do you find that half the people onlywant to deal with you and half the
people only want to deal with Tim?
Jeff Poe (26:47):
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that's,that's natural, you know?
And also too, it's like, there'slanguage based stuff too.
It's like a lot of the Asian artistslike can't talk to them and Tim can,
you know, it's like, that's justthe way it works, but that's great.
You know, it's like you go deal with that.
And I mean,
Josh Baer (27:02):
every collector is like, you know, your specialty
is young hedge fund guys.
And the other one is like,you know, third generation.
Well, I find that the other advantageof partnership is you find pretty.
quickly, who's comfortablewith what group.
Yeah,
Jeff Poe (27:18):
oh, absolutely.
And, you know, even in the, likethe higher levels, I mean, there are
people that would talk to me morethan Tim or whatever, back and forth.
But I don't like selling art.
I really don't.
I don't enjoy it.
Are you good at it?
Yeah.
I used to be really good at it and now.
Well now the thing that'sfucked up as another thing.
It's like we go back to thatquestion of like wide house,
what, what, what, what happened?
(27:39):
What, what are the changes thathave happened over the years?
And one of them is, is thatpeople don't sell art anymore.
They place it, you get a list.
You know, you throw out a PDF, 15 peoplecome back for the same fucking thing.
And then you just go through the listand you go, okay, well, and then who
are you going to place this with?
You don't have to actually stand in frontof the work any longer and talk about it.
There's no, that's gone.
(27:59):
It's shot.
So now it's, you know, it's becomebasically hyper driven commodity based.
And that part of the business isover unless you're back to having
a small space and, or business
Josh Baer (28:14):
gets tough again.
Jeff Poe (28:16):
No, even with that, I don't think so because now the business is too,
there's, there's way too much going on.
There's way, no, it's too, thefucking genie's out of the bottle.
That never goes back and that's okay.
It's just the way it's evolution.
Well, it goes
Josh Baer (28:29):
back if there's 10 paintings and five people want them.
It goes,
Jeff Poe (28:33):
if there's 10 paintings and five people want them, yes, then you have
to actually like figure that one out.
Yes.
And that does happen sometimes,but not like it used to be.
I mean, when you open a gallery,if it was 1994, 1995, and people
walk in You know, we would seewe're not, we weren't in New York.
We would see 10 people on a Saturday.
(28:54):
That
Josh Baer (28:54):
would be it.
And then I told her who Manny walkedin and said, I want to buy that penny.
You'd say, where do I invoice you?
Jeff Poe (29:00):
I would not, but in those days it was much harder and you actually had
to position the work in a way withina narrative that you could explain
and you were comfortable with that.
Touched on whatever you felt liketouching on, be it history or, you
know, just in that place, surface
Josh Baer (29:15):
of the painting and that placing of artworks.
Do you feel compelled to do a sort ofKYC of the ethics of the collectors?
What does that mean?
That means that I had an artistsaid, well, this guy wants to buy
my work that he was out at for beinglike, maybe he's an arms dealer.
Should I sell to him?
Jeff Poe (29:34):
Right.
That was talked about like money is money.
Right.
Larry was like, he said that in theNew Yorker thing, you know, just make
sure it's clean or some shit like that.
Yes.
There are people thatare, that are bad actors.
We haven't sold to badactors that we know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that you try to mitigate thosesituations, you know, when you're a
dealer that this on the sales end of it.
Josh Baer (29:55):
Well, you're mitigating it also a little bit by the people
at the front of the line or thepeople buying every show, right?
Or the people at the front of the line,the most famous and the biggest now.
Jeff Poe (30:05):
That's the sales part of it.
Like I said, I didn't do sales thatmuch in the last many few years.
It's like, I just don't enjoy
Josh Baer (30:12):
it.
And I think that is the thing aboutLarry is if he gets a message, I
sold a print for a thousand bucks.
It's like, yes, whether it's a thousandbucks or 10 million bucks, I think
he gets a charge every time he getsa little ding on his spreadsheet or
whatever, that anything was sold.
And that's kind of likea constant with him for.
(30:35):
Well, that's for
Jeff Poe (30:35):
him, but I think that's a constant for any dealer that's successful.
But you're sort
Josh Baer (30:39):
of implying it wasn't for you.
Jeff Poe (30:40):
It wasn't for me, no.
No.
It's like, what wound up happening withthe success of the gallery was like
a byproduct of, it wasn't the goal.
It was really like, let's justfucking put on a show and open it up.
And then, So you're back to your
Josh Baer (30:57):
punk rock days.
I'm definitely not doing that anymore.
But in your mind, youstill want to be Matt.
In a sense, and now you have time torecreate yourself in this vision that you
had of yourself as a young adult, right?
Well,
Jeff Poe (31:14):
it's, yeah, I mean, I was talking to Sam Durant when I told him
what was going on and he was the firstperson I called and I was like, Sam, you
know, you get to wake up every morningand be Sam and I get to wake up every
morning and I'm Jeff of Blum and Poewith 46 people I've got to employ and
60 artists I've got to take care of inthree spaces and all this other stuff.
(31:35):
So I don't, you know, I still don'tknow what that will feel like.
It's still not there yet.
It's not
Josh Baer (31:40):
clear.
Well, as I look to my next stages andwatching, you know, my mom is 94 and she's
still in the studio and what a luxury thatshe's able to like get up in the morning.
That's what she wants to do.
Believe me at 94.
I don't want to be riding underbitter McRobbie and that's like,
you know, a difference of being Sam.
(32:00):
And being Jeff and I think it'slike, you know, I just want to
say thank you for 30 years of whatyou've put in to this business.
It's been important to the artists,to the art world, to the public.
And we look forward to the next 30years of whatever that might be.
Even if it's like seeing youin some dive bar playing, you
(32:24):
know, heavy metal again, I'll go.
That will never
Jeff Poe (32:27):
happen.
Josh Baer (32:28):
I wouldn't really go, but...
Karaoke, maybe.
Karaoke, maybe.
I thought you gave upon all things Japanese.
Anything you'd like to, like, say onelast time to an audience so you don't
have to answer these questions 300
Jeff Poe (32:40):
times?
No, no, no.
You've been a sweetheart inviting me,I'm happy to be here, and, you know,
you've always been around the block, andI'm glad you're still around the block.
It's a good thing.
And also, too, in differentiterations, right?
I mean, that's just theway the art world is.
We all shift and change.
You have in good ways, you know,I'm sure you've been happy about
the path that's happened for you.
Josh Baer (33:02):
Thank you, Jeff, and we look forward to seeing you with a big smile
on your face every time we see you.
Jeff Poe (33:07):
Okay, thanks so much.
Will Griffith (33:11):
Thank you for listening to the Bare Facts Podcast, brought
to you by the leading news sourcefor the art world since 1994.
Our host is Josh Baer.
Our executive producer is Luyang Zhang.
I'm Will Griffith, our associate producer.
Our content advisor is Boliang Xin.
And our editing team is Mona Productions.
(33:32):
Special thanks to our guestfor this episode, Jeff Poe.
Subscribe today whereveryou get your podcasts.
And check back soon for futureepisodes as we unpack the inner
workings of the global art industrythrough exclusive, candid interviews
with key players in the business.
as they offer their perspectiveson art and the market in the U.
S., Asia, Europe, and beyond.
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