Disclosure Movement (of UFOs), Societal Structures, Minority Struggles and Human Dignity

Doug Scott, LCSW, and Rudee Sade have a needed and provocative conversation regarding the disclosure movement (of UFO's, dark ops) and the reality of socio-economic inequality. Rudee Sade offers helpful links below.   

Teachers and speakers doing great work:   www.twitter.com/kikplenty UFOlogy from the Black perspective      https://youtu.be/akOe5-UsQ2o?si=DASk8Plt6GrFZadg Creator of Intersectional Theory   Topics and historical events referenced:     Cointel Pro https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO     Tuskeegee Experiment  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study     The intentional construction of the Christian Right: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_network   Great book to learn more: Democracy in Chains     Redlining  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining   Great book to learn more: The Color of Law     Kyriarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyriarchy#       And, finally, for lawlz. Because lawlz are good for the soul   https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvLSw6ws0Kw/

 

Here is an informative summary, albeit overly enthusiastic, created by AI:

Immerse yourself in groundbreaking discussions with this impressive podcast episode, where we courageously tackle bellicosity – societal enmity that fosters division, wars and numerous challenges. Our distinguished guest, Rudee Sade, paints a vivid picture of his life experiences, melding faith, love and societal norms, to provide an insightful perspective on the societal issues at hand.

We delve into the concept of ‘kyriarchy,’ exploring the systems that govern our society and the impacts they make on our lives. Highlighting the importance of resources in present-day conversations and the steps necessary for a holistic transformation, this episode is an eye-opener into the realities of social stratification.

Holding a magnifying glass to deep-rooted societal norms and injustices against marginalized groups, we dig deeper into the roots of societal hostility. Shining a spotlight on the overlooked side of privilege and the complexities of structural bias, we aim to bridge the gap between the privileged and the marginalized, fostering unity and harmony.

Identity, social justice, and love form the crux of this engaging discussion, further exploring the nuances of systemic adversity. With comprehensive discussion on broader societal structures and a critical evaluation of our collective psyche, we aim to break down walls of discrimination and build bridges of understanding.

Join us on this enlightening journey that embarks on thought-provoking discussions, sheds light on in-depth societal analyses, and prompts significant conversations about justice, truth, and ultimately, healing. Listen in to this enlightening episode, where we juxtapose privilege with adversity, surfacing the raw and intricate narratives of bellicosity and society’s most pressing challenges.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I'm doing pretty well. I am. I haven't slept well in the past week or so.
And a long time. Yeah. I mean, it's not been horrible, but I feel a little bit
not as centered as I could be.
That's real but i'm okay with that too because i know the rhythms come and go,

(00:24):
and so sort of how i feel at the moment but.
So i guess if it's okay and i'm not gonna be putting this part on the podcast
but would it be okay if i or let me ask you this would how do you feel about
opening this thing up with maybe just kind of a love intention. Yeah.

(00:44):
Definitely. Do you want me to do it? Would you like to do it?
If you could be, that would be great. Okay.
Just center yourself for a second and infinite creator, we thank you for the
joy of being here, being present.
We ask that whatever happens in this conversation of love and light,

(01:08):
that it may be given to the world for the highest and greatest good possible,
according to your own nature of unity and union.
And we thank you for the opportunity to be here as you in this body,
in this time, so that we can direct

(01:30):
our intention towards the highest and greatest form of love and light.
Amen. and I'm going to turn this.
So, by the way, again, not going to record, not going to have this part,
but how do you want me to refer you as? Is it Rudy?

(01:50):
Do you have a particular kind of pronunciation?
Oh, yeah. Rudy Shaday. It's kind of like Ann Marie. Yeah.
Rudy Shaday. Mm-hmm. Do you want me to say your last name or do you just want to go by?
Yeah, that's actually my first name. Rudy Shaday is the whole thing?
Tribe called Quest, you got to say the whole thing. Dude, that's cool.

(02:11):
Okay. Well, then what do you know?
Well, Rudy Shaday, you know, you have been, from my perspective,
you have been an incredibly welcome presence in our Building Forth community.
And I'm so grateful that you reached out to me a little while ago,

(02:34):
I guess maybe about a year ago or something. thing.
I think you might've seen me on maybe Rick Archer's boot at the gas pump.
Do you remember? Was that, was that? Yeah. Okay.
And I have been enriched by your presence on, in building forth.
You, you bring, from my perspective, you bring a specific skillset that,

(02:58):
that might be unique in our community, and that is a sufficient level of woo-woo-ism.
You know, that's a clinical word.
No, you're as woo-woo as they get. You fit right in.
You are a BIPOC person, non-binary person, someone who grew up with a conventional

(03:24):
faith background. ground.
I think your mom especially is still very much a part of that.
Christian, almost fundamentalist, I think you might have said.
And yet you have outgrown that.
And you also speak with a kind of depth and wisdom that certainly seems way

(03:45):
beyond your age, although I don't know your age, but I mean, it's pretty advanced.
And you have that unique blend of love and wisdom and a knowledge of like sociology
and really, really well thought out concepts.
And I think the last thing I would say that has been very touching to me is
how much you engage our community, but I'm assuming the world,

(04:10):
with heart, with this almost,
brutally vulnerable vulnerability you know
that you engage with the world with a with a fearlessness certainly courage
so thank you for being a part of our community and for this conversation yeah

(04:30):
yeah thank you so much it's it's really an honor to be invited part of.
Theological space that I just hold in
such high regard the platform that you have and being in the community that
you need has been a real blessing to my life in many ways and has enriched me

(04:55):
and anyone that needs to deal with me on a regular basis.
If it's okay i i found
to as i was thinking through anything that
i might want to say or talk about or or anything i
want to just kind of open with
with just some quotes that that really stood out

(05:17):
to me when i was thinking about how to respond meaningfully
whatever you brought up yeah the first
is what i like to call my bible approximation like i i went to sunday school
like everybody grew up in a religious family but made a lot of the exact places
and verses and stuff that you don't think in my head i wrote it down twice but

(05:37):
i didn't write it down in my note but anyone who knows the bible will know what
i'm talking about there's a paul verse.
That goes it's not for me to call anyone unclean or to call anyone common i
i came when i was sent for and tell me why you want me here.
That is really stuck out as kind of the undertone of all the things that we've

(06:02):
been talking about that we're going to get into.
And there's a Toni Morrison quote from her novel, Song of Solomon.
And it goes, listen, baby, people do funny things, especially us.
The cards are stacked against us and just trying to stay in the game,
stay alive and stay in the game makes us do funny, funny things,

(06:23):
things we can't help, things that make us hurt one another, and we don't know why.
And as I was thinking about the concept of how people are finding room for grace
and discourse in an increasingly crazy world.

(06:44):
Coming up. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. Our conversation today might be even more comprehensive than just some
of the thoughts that you had in regards to my dialogue with Victor a while ago in so far as my journey,

(07:04):
his journey through kind of a conspiracy place in terms of disclosure.
And I had specifically asked you to listen to the interview and give me some
feedback, which you did.
You gave me a nice chunk of feedback and it was intriguing enough that I wanted

(07:24):
to have this conversation with you now and put it on the podcast.
And so I guess maybe if we could start with that and then if we flow into other
areas, that would be great too. Is that okay? Okay.
You had held what was being said by Victor and I with a spacious,

(07:46):
I guess, a spaciousness where you could affirm what we were saying,
particularly, I guess, what I was saying, I'll speak for myself,
but also able to see and ask questions from a non-white male straight great Texan perspective.

(08:08):
And of course, that's important because, you know, I am all those things and
there's so much that I miss just by that.
And also, I would say that my experience with people who are interested in these
kinds of things, UFOs, disclosure,
law of one even, The vast majority are white people.

(08:34):
And amongst those, I would say the majority are males.
And so you have white males kind of really talking to white people a lot,
mostly white males, not always, of course.
And there really, you know, there's a lot of voices and a lot of wondering,

(08:56):
like, what is going on with UFOs and disclosure and sort of high phenomenon,
high strangeness?
And what's going on with somebody from your own background.
And I know you have a lot going on, but there was a couple of issues that you

(09:17):
brought up that I thought were interesting and I wanted to maybe explore those.
One was I had spoken about this idea of bellicosity.
And that's something that I've developed in other places, both in audio and in my writing,
a hearkening to the law
of one and the source of the law of one the raw

(09:38):
group talks about bellicosity as being the energetics of kind of a warfare stance
an a priori stance a hermeneutic a hermeneutic of suspicion to where one is
looking through the lens of warfare and then that is the
lens through which one interprets reality.

(10:00):
And so, however we enter into something of high strangeness,
particularly, we're going to enter into it from our own perspective.
And if we have a perspective informed primarily through bellicosity,
especially if we're not aware of it, then that's the lens through which we're
going to engage with it and call it correct. rec.

(10:21):
And my own reading of raw my work with clients for 22 years.
People of color, as well as whites, white people.
And theologians that I respect seem to say that there is this need to look inside

(10:46):
and deal with the inner life,
especially where there's places of blockage insofar as that we don't process catalysts,
that trigger us efficiently.
And so I'm operating from that lens, but then you bring up a point where,
well, what about people who have been systemically marginalized for hundreds

(11:13):
of years, if not thousands,
don't they deserve to have a hermeneutic of suspicion?
I mean, isn't that part of their survival? So could I just ask,
I'm going to stop and ask you to weigh in and did I set you up okay?
Or how do you feel about what I'm saying?
Yeah, thank you. That's a really fair assessment and recap.

(11:37):
And to set the framing of where I'm coming from, I wanted to respond to the
really thoughtful conversation that you and Victor were having from your experience.
And everything you're saying makes sense and made sense.
Where I see a major opportunity, especially for the heart of the intentionality that I know you wanted.

(12:04):
The main reason that I brought this story up was that kind of frames a lot of
what I think about what you wrote about and what you said.
I don't know. I forget how Ra organizes it. What is it? Like part 96? Session 96?
Working 96? I can't remember. Number 96.

(12:25):
Where everybody goes into the whole like there's a cost to love thing.
That was one of the first haunt but not explicate things in the raw material
that really stuck with me and then I was remembering that you had that at the
end of your your talk with Victor,

(12:47):
Victor's a very interesting cat I've only like heard from or exchanged words with maybe,
like four Trump supporters that that I know of I'm a lot of people voted for
him on the on like like, on the low,
so, but, like, that I know of out loud, like, four, so it's been, it was interesting to,

(13:11):
and, and good to hear from his perspective of what he's been walking through,
and I noticed that you've had several people, like, you've given several people
the mic who have walked through very interesting stories, and, and background, and,
like, you know, like, old school, like giving people an opportunity opportunity
to give their testimony so that's cool but this idea of love having a cost i

(13:38):
i that's something that keeps standing out and i want to come back to that.
The main thing that i think like the number one thing that i think overall i
listened to the the like the i don't know you want to call it an interview or
conversation like a couple times and I read your slides and stuff.

(13:58):
The first thing I think is that it's really cool that you are so open and reflective
about what your journey has been.
I see you doing that Barack Obama shit. I don't know if you're doing it on purpose
or not, but you know how the Barack rule, at least that's what people around
me call it, the Barack rule.
When you know that you are choosing to have a public life and a public presence

(14:22):
like write your book to say everything about yourself first so that one so that
other people can't say it but two so that people know like the the the,
complexity of the texture of your story so he in in his two books before he
ran for president he just kind of put it all out there and that's kind of what
what I felt from seeing the way that you put your work together.

(14:47):
So that's the first thing. Then the second thing is I'm forever and always,
just about permanently, looking at things from, first and foremost,
the perspective of intersectionality.
Like that's just where I live, where I stay, what's going on.
And there's this term that I learned. I didn't know about this.

(15:08):
I don't know how it's pronounced.
It's either kyriarchy or kyriarchy, K-Y-R-I-A-C-H-Y.
And like it was invented
by a i believe queer feminist to
describe all of the dominating systems that
create issues so people are often using like patriarchy when they really are

(15:33):
referring to a lot more than just patriarchy patriarchy is like often a symptom
of these things but it's not like the the core fucking causes belly and i think
i'm just gonna go with a curiarchy is the pronunciation.
I think the curiarchy gives us an opportunity to separate the angst with issues

(15:53):
of access and power and a resource, separate it from masculinity by itself.
This is, it's kind of a tangent, but it's less of a tangent than it seems.
When we're looking at issues of like bellicosity, both as given and as reflected
back, I often think that the far left and the far right are in this very interesting,

(16:17):
almost tantric dance of like, the right will make some of the first,
do the opening salvo of bellicosity and the left will be like, ah, yes,
I absorb this, echo this and give it back to you 50 times stronger.
And then the right will be like, oh, more. And then the left is like, fantastic.

(16:39):
I live for this. Pull it down into the ground and give it back more.
And then you just like keep going until everybody like ascends to heaven slash hell.
And I think that looking at it as curiarchy, not patriarchy,
could be very interesting in interrupting that dance or bringing that dance
into deeper contemplation without scapegoating and also without accountability

(17:04):
dodging or bypassing my core point with it. in.
When I'm hearing all of this and what you're saying,
the thing that's coming to mind for me most of all is something,
a thought that I've been like, I don't know, I don't know what you call it,
a thought that I've been having between myself and my notebooks.

(17:27):
Like what is that? When you're.
I agree with you on almost everything you're saying and dot, dot, dot.
I think it's extremely important in conversations where the impetus or the goal
or the hope or the undertone is to get people to investigate their anger or

(17:53):
investigate the way that they show up.
I think access to resources is an extremely overlooked and important part of these conversations.
I see a lot of, you know, a lot of metamodernist conversation going to this
place of what will help support a more balanced and wholeness-making conversation.

(18:19):
And I agree but I think that that
that approach is really incomplete
without at least an acknowledgement if
not plans to ameliorate the very
wide gaps in the bandwidth that people
have to do something about showing up in a
you know fighting or defensive nature because we can't do anything about the

(18:49):
way that an undernourished and overactive red ray response is going to happen
until we do something about it.
And that's where I think that there's a lot of room for this conversation to
grow in sophistication, like no matter who's having it.
Like Othering and Belonging Institute does really great work on this.

(19:10):
ProPublica and Demos attempt to find a more balanced perspective.
I hear a lot of that in what you're saying and I very much agree with all of
it, but it's like people aren't doing this because like for shiggles, right?
No matter which ideology it's coming from or what reason why,
this is a response to very active pain that I don't hear as much about as much

(19:35):
as I hear about the impacts of the response to the pain.
And it's tricky because that's what we're here to talk about, right?
Like in these conversations, the point is to talk about ways to have more wholeness,
to have more harmony in a system.
But I think if we don't name that there is something very wrong that people

(19:58):
may not understand how to fix and speaking about the gap and getting curious
about the gap in fixing it, we run a few core risks. We run the risk of.
Creating like shame. If somebody recognizes themselves in those words but doesn't
hear a path out, they may be quiet for shame because they get to a place where

(20:19):
someone finally sees what's going on and they feel a bit of resonance,
but then they feel maybe possibly unworthy of being part of that community or
unworthy of being part of that dialogue because they don't know how to,
you know, calm the response down that's creating this bellicose.
That's the first thing. And then the second thing is I think that there's opportunities

(20:41):
that might be missed for common ground.
Because even if somebody is being like a wild ass about the things that they
are very activated about, both sides,
far left, far right and middle, can typically tend to agree around resource
and provision making to help people with their most base needs.

(21:02):
And most people wouldn't refuse if their most base needs were offered to be attended to I think.
Thanks for being present for my like early
draft of this because I feel something much bigger beneath
this but I'm just I'm working on it slowly like I don't really fucking
know but it you know I'm pulling this

(21:24):
this this theory together and that's
kind of the main thing that i think about
what you said i'm i'm super
interested in the the off-planet archaeology
that you mentioned that shit sounds cool what's that
about that's cool you were talking about it in one of your slides that sounded
cool as shit and then also i'm kind of i'm wondering a lot about what do we

(21:53):
do about the parts of these very large complaints that are true i cannot speak at
all and i can't speak for shit to the more
conservative side i have never been that i am not that demographic i don't understand
anything about it so i won't comment on it and most of the the the far right
response the conservative to to ultra right response is is enacted by and upon,

(22:20):
white straight men i have nothing that i can add or offer about that experience
so i won't insult consult anybody by doing that.
So I'm just going to speak from
like center left where I was raised to far left where I went in my life.
And so much of that bellicosity comes from the fact that like,

(22:42):
like, what do we do about the fact that we started this journey in the United
States with like smallpox blankets and trails of jewels that led to transatlantic bondage?
Like, that's how they They got people on the ship, some of them.
Like, what do we do about, like,
you know, crack being on purpose and like the suppression of AIDS science and

(23:03):
Jewish people in the ghettos who were told that they'd be able to reclaim their
valuables in just a few weeks and to just go ahead and get on the train.
And like the, what do we do about Tuskegee, right?
I'm a direct descendant of Tuskegee. My dad went there for school and he was born in Bama in 48.

(23:24):
So like this is he experiment and all of that like this this hermeneutic of suspicion.
From the place of those which power
systems were enacted upon is not rhetorical that's
one of the major things that kept coming up for me in listening
to this course and reading what you're saying for many people the

(23:46):
hermeneutic of suspicion is rhetorical right
like i'm not again i'm not making any judgment or
comment what white dudes with like middle middle income
or like maybe poor and like had to really hard
scrabble for their opportunities like i'm not saying nothing ever happens to
them but what i am going to say is for the majority of their lifetime and the
lifetime of their direct for you know forefathers unless somebody's jewish like

(24:09):
the majority of the lifetime of white presenting male people has been built
with society working for them not against them, structurally bottom-up, top-down,
and like America was not making its money off of their debt.
This is not true for ADOS people, like American disinterested slaves people.
This place was built on killing them. This place was built on killing indigenous people.

(24:33):
This place was literally powered by ignoring the voices of women,
and like the binding of the queer experience has been a shared bonfire where
when people can't get along they kind of focus on.
How much they don't like queer so like the

(24:53):
s'mores of the campfire has been queer suppression so it's like it's come by
quite honestly this hermeneutic of suspicion there often is a back there and
it often is malicious it's not like people are hunting for it and looking for
it it's if you're not looking for it you're statistically more likely to become dead
and like as i'm as i'm

(25:15):
listening i can i i hear where what you're saying definitely
applies to like you know like like calm
down take a breath deconstruct like yes when when when white people mostly white
men are fighting and fearing other white people mostly white men yes because
it's toe-to-toe and also in my opinion both sides when we're talking about white

(25:37):
on white crime here Sorry, bad joke, but I still think it's fun.
Like, when we're talking about that, both sides know damn well what happened
to everyone else. And if there's only two major camps left.
Liberal-leaning white men and conservative-leaning white men,
everybody knows that there's no rules when it comes to power,
and that's why everyone's so fucking afraid, because they see what happens to everybody else.

(26:00):
So, like, I don't know. I don't know how to synthesize that,
like, in the theories that you're talking about, but that's what came up for me a lot.
Nadia Bowles-Weber often said that something that really stuck with me, that, like.
You know, this whole constitutional thing about, like, guns and access to weapons,
But if we really look at the root of it,
the access to guns was so important for the colonizers because they lived in

(26:25):
fear that the tyrants that they were running from would take their guns before
they had a chance to defend what they had taken.
So from this balance point of fear and suspicion and violence came a lot of
iterations of a lot of things that came after leading to our current situations

(26:48):
that we're in with around part of the conversation around guns.
Guns so there's like three to four core existential wounds
in like the in the collective western psyche and you
know the global south and and eastern civilizations have
their own which i'm not qualified to speak on so i won't but just looking at
like looking at our shit right uk us canada and like hedging on europe every

(27:13):
now and then there's there's three or four very deep festering wounds that we've
not gotten through and we often want people to to get through those wounds on an.
Individual level when we've not given the resources for it
collectively and on the side of those who have been statistically
and historically more privileged a place
to put the entire tantrum or fit of you

(27:36):
know there's this therapy guy who's on instagram i
can't remember his last name his first name is matthias and he's pretty cool
and he says a lot of good shit and he's like there are many people who will
not feel listened to unless they're agreed with and And then there are a lot
of people who will not feel engaged unless they are in control.

(27:57):
And I think that when we're looking at demographics of people who have been
historically underprivileged.
Quietly installed in positions of control,
whether they were consciously complicit in this or they just think that that's
how life is, to change or shift that requires a flock load of bandwidth to deal
with the existential scream of like, well, what do I do now?

(28:18):
This wasn't my fault. What happened?
I don't want to live without the upper hand and control like in terms of my systemic advantages.
That's a whole bunch of bandwidth that's going to have to be created and somebody
going to need to deal with that screaming.
From the position of those who have been historically.
Stripped of their dignity, rights, and freedoms, there is a very long and very

(28:41):
valid list of very deep screams that are going to take a lot of bandwidth to attend to.
And so I don't really know, and I don't need to know,
but I'm glad that what you said and you inviting me to talk about this gave
me the opportunity to like really step back and be like, okay,

(29:03):
there's the privileged version of this convo.
And then there's the BIPOC version of this convo. And they are very different
conversations with very different needs.
And neither is exempt from, you know,
the balancing that is requested of us from law of one,
if that's the tradition that we're choosing to look at this in and both are

(29:25):
real like both are are real human responses
to things so yeah the
the part where you were quoting the um the spiritual attention span of most
of your people is that of a child i laugh for like an like an uninterrupted
two minutes there's um there's a there's a rap song it's like one of my favorite

(29:45):
lines short short attention pan short attempt short attention tension span,
short tempers, and short skirts. Isn't that fucking great?
It's one of my favorite rap lyrics. And that's what I was thinking about when I was looking at,

(30:06):
The other part is like in that same quote and section, it was like something
like it's a building block that like has lost its place and it rolls around
and yet we're still going to get get paged.
And so we're going to be given the same basic information until we do something different.
And then we decide that we're tired of hearing the same shit over and over and over and then we quit.

(30:31):
It but we're going to hear the same things over
and over and over until we get the
message and gain in maturity for being
able to listen to what we're called to and and
i think that this bears on what i was you know
the kind of point that i have here is like so we keep saying this message of

(30:51):
like you know deal with each other like justly and like lovingly and with patience
and everything And we're going to keep needing to repeat it to advance anywhere as a society,
no matter how great our technology gets or supposed access to capital supposedly equalizes.
We're going to keep doing the same shit. but i think

(31:14):
that there's one more piece that i'd be
interested to know if there's anything in the raw
material that references this there's one more piece of
like when everyone is depleted where does the initial resource come from to
give people the energy and bandwidth to even have these discussions like i have

(31:35):
this question of every spirit almost every spiritual system i hear about almost
every form of self-improvement that I hear about.
And I look at this from a very black perspective.
If I am running on negative nothing, where am I supposed to get this bandwidth
to do this thing that you're asking me to do?
And I think that it becomes the responsibility of institutions suggesting or

(31:57):
espousing this theoretical point of view to provide relief.
Least i liked the the
thing that that you said
about how warfare mindset like directly
precludes a contemplative life i think that that's true and i think that the

(32:18):
things that put us into warfare mindset should be like itemized and investigated
i think and it's it's i'm pausing because i want and our approach is the right way.
The other part that I saw on your slides, it was like, I want to make sure I get the right quote.
Here we go. We call for aid, we receive answers, yet we stagnate,

(32:42):
and in our restlessness and frustration,
we are vulnerable to turning our spiritual focus down into the consciousness
frequency of the warfare worldview from which warfare disclosure narratives arise.
And yes, yes.
Here's my counter question. What if when we call for aid, we need like aid though?

(33:07):
Like people, it's, so somebody goes to the doctor and they think that they're
having a certain type of pain.
The doctor's not going to necessarily like listen to them for exactly what they think the pain is.
The doctor's going to go to the cabinet of what they
know and what their training is so if someone walks in
thinking that they have you know a heart attack

(33:29):
versus herpes versus whatever but yes that gets
taken into account but the doctor's not going to like cater everything
to what the patient thinks they have when people call for
aid they're often asking for things that aren't the source of the
real fucking problem like people will be like oh
i need help with this or oh i need these people to stop doing this to
me or oh i need this to go this way and like the calls for aid are often

(33:51):
called calls to alleviate what we
feel are symptoms of the problem but there's like
root cures that can be given and i think that it starts from like a physical
and material basis one of the things that you say a lot that i think is is very
interesting i mean i know this is like one of your core like things is people

(34:12):
trying to do spiritual development by like reaching like like,
upward and that they might be better served by reaching downward.
My theory is, like, yes, all of that.
But before that, they're trying to reach, like, physically out for,
like, food, water, shelter, and, like, self-esteem.

(34:33):
Because only from that point can you understand, like, what your real hunger
levels are, what your real panic or need levels are, to know how deeply and
and how frantically to reach up or down.
And like, it's a resource intensive question that doesn't really have any like good answers.
Think like that the low self-awareness that

(34:53):
you're talking about is like a coping mechanism like like
one of the mighty f's you know what is it
fight like fight flight freeze on those
the f's and i and i think that it's
a response to like the vastness of the task and
the skinniness of the consistent resources especially when
doing this type of balancing work and and doing this

(35:14):
type of reconciliation based behavior is going to
put you under more stress because you're moving outside of the
societal norm and outside of what you were referring
to in your podcast like the systems of belonging that you either grew up in
or found after you were desperate like when you were talking about that in regards
to how people do things around like church or trump or all of that i don't know

(35:35):
nothing about that but what i do understand is the way that people respond to gang,
and the sense of belonging that comes from being in a gang and the sense of
belonging that can come When a jailhouse minister comes and has you start doing Jehovah's Witness,
pie selling shit out of jail because they were the only ones who cared.

(35:56):
That I can understand and I think that it's similar.
So to go against that and to risk the bellicosity of those who gave you water
when you had no water is inviting another level of existential stress.
And so like like that's rough and I don't know how to account for that and then

(36:19):
okay flip it flip it to the other side right like.
One is living with resources and has been part of the dominant majority their
entire life they they've never had practice eating
turnips off the floor like which could actually make this like harder because
they've never had their backs against the wall
to need to conceive of what it's like to break out out

(36:40):
of uh what what campbell refers to as like
ethnic a dunkin and folk the dunkin like the the the
the quaint little village the tram before you start the hero's journey
and I think that oftentimes for people
of privilege the idea of like going to like extraordinary lengths
is something that's very optional right like you can choose to go on like some

(37:00):
I don't know extreme hiking adventures or choose to build some super ambitious
company to make fortitude like deep fortitude and and resilience in the face of potential
pushback be something that's part of being
ethical in itself not like a a bonus for
the extra adventurous that's gonna scare the fuck out of people like

(37:23):
what happens then you know so yeah
but one of the
major questions that i often have for like truthers and like you know the whole
q anon thing again my my number of discourses with this community has admittedly
been very shallow but when I hear somebody that shared with me that they're
even entertaining this my question is I'm like where's that where's that energy

(37:47):
about COINTELPRO COINTELPRO like.
Find it difficult to understand where that same energy was in the 80s to the
2000s like like when people are talking about these oppressor oppressors and
like overlord like energy i am.

(38:08):
Wondering how much of it is because like they're they they perceive that their
quality of life is compromised which can be through you know the economic downturn
or you know different things
like that which for sure like inflation is a bitch for everybody regardless
of where you come from but then there's things that are kind of like more
like self-selected self-opted into such

(38:28):
as like you know masks or vaccines or like
things to choose to be pissed about and it's
interesting the parallels between that and then
like people BIPOC activists
like like retro people in like
the 60s 50s 60s 70s talking about like the man
and the system and this and that and the pushback fact

(38:48):
that oftentimes these same truthers will
will be calling like snowflake or or or whining
it's very interesting to watch that same
energy be reflected and like i often pause and then
look like look at it just for for ways to try and find solidarity with you know

(39:09):
the obvious like pain that they're that they're feeling but it's difficult and
and interesting and that's how i I kind of got to these things about bandwidth,
because at the end of it, it's all just one, you know, big, you know, scream.
But yeah, I think, I think the other thing that you were saying about spiritual

(39:32):
but not religious people, like not trusting an external authority to,
to help them in like sensemaking and reality.
I think that's, I think that's a tragedy. And
I I think that's sad and yeah I think anything
that can be done to prevent that should be done because if
we're if we're doing anything to help

(39:56):
I think one of the best things that can be done is
to help people have a a healthier relationship
with their intuitive sense like to respect it to honor it but also respect it
through boundaries as much as they respect it through listening And I think
that a lot of spiritual development communities fall short of doing that.

(40:21):
And yeah, I think that's a genuine Shakespeare style, legit tragic.
And the other thing we were saying about it's not the specificity of the information
which attracts negative influences.
It's the importance placed upon it. And I agree, but this comes back to that,

(40:41):
the theme that I've been on.
It's perceived as life or death important information among more privileged audiences.
It like actually is often actual life and actual death for vulnerable audience.
So like, what then, you know?
Like I think I think that

(41:03):
there's a there's a big difference in
that and and finding a synthesis for that within the raw material has been something
that I really sat with and you know dealt with and I think that in those examples
that you were talking about about like the spiritual spiritual,

(41:23):
the spiritual speaker people about the way that they were talking about some
of their points and how they were trying to, to use their headlines to draw people in.
What I thought was really interesting, I was like, oh, this is just like pain
point based copywriting.
Like there's entire schools of thought, like multiple millions of dollars per
year go into, and you may know this, go into having people talk that way about

(41:49):
like, about anything, about like the newest massage
chair or like why to join certification programs or
like beauty products or coaching whatever the
fuck's like people kind of just like talk about this
and i've always had this weird feeling about the slippery slope between like
commerce and like weird weird alleys of of where we can take our consciousness

(42:10):
and it was just interesting to see all those examples that you lined up in a
row because i was like shit i see this in copywriting all the time.
Yeah, I just really don't know what to do about this idea that for some people
fear baiting and fear mongering is voluntary and for other people it's historically

(42:33):
like epigenetically verifiably real fear.
And I think the point that I'm getting to in this is like that I think the core
distinction to be made is to maybe acknowledge that.
I don't know how, without giving preference to one side or another,

(42:55):
I leave that to minds that might be thinking at a different angle than me.
But yeah, it's like, you know the story about the watermelon monster?
There's this tribe of people that believe there's a watermelon monster.
Somebody tries to tell them there's not a watermelon monster and show them by
eating a watermelon they think that he's like a demon cannibal and kill him.

(43:17):
And somebody takes a really long time to like work with the people painstakingly
over a very long time to get them to walk into a field one month touch the watermelon
another month and then realize oh it's not a monster so like how can people
have enough sustenance to sustain themselves.
And resources to build those relationships long

(43:37):
enough to overcome the water watermelon monster gap
and not get killed that's the big bottom line that i'm seeing in
all of this like how are the the people who
are going to be these bridge makers fortified and how are
the people who choose to listen to them fortified and where does
all of that infrastructure and resource come from i know
that it's like an overly tactical and not overly it's a very tactical what do

(43:59):
they call it green ray question but i honestly don't see how we can address
these root things even if you get to disposition or like wanting to or whatever
if your cortisol levels are fucked up you can't do If your blood sugar levels
are fucked up, you can't do this.
If your actual neurological way that your brain patterns are functioning and

(44:20):
firing are fucked up because of unaddressed CPTSD, you literally cannot do this.
So we're asking people to do something that their physical level of sickness
and their body may not be able to let them do.
And then they'll feel bad. And then it still won't be.
And that's at the root of a lot of like lack of lack of trust in these communities.

(44:46):
And then, you know, a good smattering of intersectional history that would that would help everybody.
Buddy but there's just speaking from the the the BIPOC you know queer all of
my acronym lens a lack of trust in this in the in the newer paradigms often
comes from a lack of acknowledgement,

(45:06):
of how we got here like a lack of thorough acknowledgement and if just from
my perspective listening and then speaking to you know people that I talk to
I talk to a lot of my friends And I'm in a very fortunate position to talk to
a lot of my friends about,
like, peace and how they're finding peace.
And one of the major things that prevents them from having it is that they're

(45:27):
like, as soon as I let my guard down, this system is going to eat me.
And I can't fucking tell them that they're wrong, though.
And then it becomes like, okay, well, how do you have, like,
dignity in the face of non-dignified situations? And that's a whole other conversation.
That's about, like, lemons out of lemonade and some, not Marcus Aurelius, but what's his name?
Oh come on shit epictetus that's some

(45:50):
epictetus shit which is like that's about stoicism that's not
about this that's not about wholeness making that's about fucking hurting
as few people as possible as you get through a rated game and so i don't i don't
know i don't know like who who enters the doors of heaven fresh from a fight
that they had to have you know and then on the other side who enters the door

(46:11):
of heaven fresh from fighting that was voluntary that that's a you know,
that's a different conversation,
but there's, yeah, there's something
about this, as this religious and institutional pain get, get healed.
It's like, if, if, if the methods of control and, and power are distrusted,
it's worth looking at, you know, why, why they're used often in, in the discourse.

(46:38):
I think that's, that's a major point that you're making, right?
A big point that i hear that you're making is that the master's
tools will never dismantle the master's house it's an audre
lorde quote that you may be familiar with like so it has a lot
of meanings but it was originally made within like
the context of capitalism and media meaning that
money and media will not be the tools that will be used to question capitalism

(46:59):
media in a in a deep way but also applies in
terms of like methodology so that that mlk thing like
hate can't drive out hate only love can do that I
think that that a major set
of points that you make are basically that right that you're
not going to fight fire with fire and and from there there comes room to to
look for solutions and look for bandwidth so like I'm with you on that I'm with

(47:24):
you I'm with you on that a lot and I think that like what do we do about the
fact that when you were actually legit being fucked with systemically top down bottom up.
Very difficult if not impossible to
to contain the the the fires that are that are that are created by that and

(47:45):
if you believe that you're getting fucked with and you know as people on the
more privileged side if they if they honestly believe they're getting hurt then they also have a
hell of a problem too yeah yeah i think this is this is just all really really valuable and,

(48:08):
i especially thought that when
you were talking about the part where what did you say like the people with
blockages in the lower triad that they often like reject universal what do you
say compassion and understanding because they don't get it and that they've
understood that like Like everyone has like an agenda and attacking first makes more sense.

(48:31):
And that conventional ways of understanding our reality can't be trusted.
Yes, I think that that's true. I think that that's true a lot.
I'm still, I'm just still stuck on. And I guess that it has to be just a matter

(48:52):
of like what you've been doing in building force, frankly, like sitting still,
taking as much power off of the table and making it not a conversation about
resources as much as possible and sit still for as long as possible and be gentle and loving.
And like as the little tiny these
little tiny pieces of solidarity and these little tiny pieces

(49:14):
of of joy and resource like come together
like like dust particulate in the air takes a
long time to make a dust bunny like just little particles
of dust in the air they'll take three to six months to like
form a little dust ball and then how many dust balls
do you need till you can start making thread and then
how much thread do you need before you can start weaving it together

(49:34):
like it's slow but i mean
i guess fuck like when you think about it in terms of like time as compared
to what it takes to go from a density from like second to third or third to
fourth it takes forever but like is it wrong that i have this desire to just
be like pick it up like not at you but just with the process you know the process in general.

(49:57):
I don't, I don't know. Well, amazing. Thank you.
I can see now that when I was speaking with Victor,
I was speaking with a bunch of assumptions because he was also a white male
and he and I, we, we, we differ still probably politically, which is fine.

(50:20):
And I know that we differed in our support of Trump and things like that back
in, you know, even in 2016 and then 2020 and so on and so forth.
And he had his own journey and so did I. But I guess because I was speaking to him,
I didn't really explore my deeper thoughts on the disclosure movement and bellicosity

(50:50):
and things that you're bringing up right now because I am 100% in agreement with you.
And it was one of the things that really helped me to see just how privileged
the general disclosure movement advocates were,

(51:11):
because in their own arguments,
they were not talking about any of the stuff that you're talking about.
And nevertheless, they were finding ways to fight.
And this idea of, you know, there's a cabal and there's only a few in charge and it's evil at top.

(51:32):
And we have to have a hermeneutic of suspicion with everything that we've ever seen.
And I remember at that particular time in my life too, this was circa 2015.
2016, that I was really encountering, I want to say for the first time,
although I guess I'd had seeds planted in the past, but really looking at it

(51:57):
deeply for the first time.
And that was the whole concept of white privilege, the concept of looking...
What I consider reality in my embodiment, just walking from here to there in
Texas, is different than somebody else, big time.
Especially in Texas. Oh, dude, yeah.

(52:22):
And I had already shifted in my own mind to a more, I guess you could call it progressive politics.
Politics having lived in nicaragua for two
years and really it was brown and black people there that opened my eyes sitting

(52:42):
with them over candlelight in the second poorest country of the western hemisphere
where they're serving us you know fresh lobster from their nets,
and then talking for four hours about how the government the u.s government
contra U.S.-backed, sorry, U.S.

(53:03):
Government-backed contra had tortured certain family members and killed certain family members.
And I didn't have any knowledge of politics back then.
I was so, well, the only thing that was important to me was the pro-life movement.
I mean, it's embarrassing to say, just super, super conservative Catholic,

(53:27):
extraordinarily narrow way to see things.
And so, I mean, one thing that happened when I went to Nicaragua was from the
very beginning, I went through a depression because I couldn't fit in.
And it was not too far away from suicidal ideation, to be honest.
But I had a series of what I would call miracles.

(53:52):
Let me know that I had to stay in the country for my own future, I suppose.
And I did. I certainly didn't want to, but I did.
And I think what that did is that particular experience of being broken and
really not being able to put back the pieces allowed me to maybe be an empty cup.

(54:15):
I went down there perhaps with my cup pretty full.
And so this emptied my cup and I needed that. Then I go to Boston College for three years,
really learn more about social policy and things like that and seeing a person
inside their environment and really falling in love, to be honest.

(54:36):
With one of the few things that I love about the Catholic faith is this idea of the robust social.
Justice and social dialogue of what constitutes a society that is grounded in
values of seeing human dignity everywhere.
And even if it's not in praxis very well, it is neat to read some of the deep thoughts there.

(55:04):
And also, I would say that a lot of the groups that are doing systemic social
justice are indeed faith-based oriented, particularly with a liberation theology twist.
You'll see a lot of that. And you're not going to find conservative thinking in that realm.
So, whenever I start to see, when I engaged with the disclosure community,

(55:27):
beginning in 2014, really, I guess, yeah, 2014 and right on up to 2018 is when
I started moving out of that. 2020 was my adios.
I would say that I was shocked at hearing white people.
Discover their sense of justice and something happening behind the scenes as

(55:51):
if that were the first time in humanity,
you know, I, I, you know, and so actually I took it upon myself as a white male
to write articles to this community saying, wake the hell up.
I wrote an article, which I since took down a while ago. It was my most popular one.
It got something like two or 300,000 hits and it was translated,

(56:15):
not known by, I didn't do it.
People took it and just went off with it, but like translating to Spanish and French.
And I found myself on YouTube in French. I'm like, dude, that's weird.
But the, the title of it was something like.
You're going to hear the conspiracy here, but the cabal's last trick or something like that.

(56:36):
And it was this idea that the cabal is creating an environment to where those
who are fighting for social justice actually imprison themselves all the more.
I'm not fighting for social justice, sorry, fighting against the cabal.
So I was really having in mind the truther community, you know,

(56:58):
the disclosure. Fighting for this is actually going to entrap people even more
because it's inside this ethos of attack and retribution and all of that.
And so I was really a white male trying to talk to other white people saying, no, no, no, no.
And I guess from a psychological perspective, it was also me trying to help

(57:23):
locate the problem is actually not out there, but rather in here.
So in other words, I was trying to act as a white male to maybe affect a little
change within the white community.
Because no one else is really responsible for that except for white people, you know.

(57:45):
We've got to be the ones to wake ourselves up. I mean, we're too damn stubborn otherwise.
And so that's where I was coming from. And I think a healthy hermeneutic of
suspicion is absolutely key.
It's important. I mean, how could it not be?
I just don't think we have to locate hermeneutic of suspicion at everything

(58:07):
and our fingers go pointing to the fourth density reptilian aliens and then
their governmental whatever elite minions.
Like, that's where the vast majority of the disclosure community,
anytime they saw anything that was wrong, and rightly wrong,

(58:27):
I mean, let's say their feelings of injustice,
fine, I can agree.
Their facts are so off that they're actually in the service of entrapping themselves all the more.
You know what I mean? So if someone is upset at...
I don't know, cars on the road. I'm just looking out here and I see I-35.

(58:52):
There's cars on the road. So somebody with a hermeneutic of suspicion who's
trapped into warfare spirituality, where it's the light team and the dark team
and the reptilians versus the blah-blahs,
and they're just looking over here and, well, there's cars on the road.
And well, that's got got to be because there's the cabals doing this to entrap us.

(59:16):
And it's not just the cabal, it's the Dracos, the reptilian dark lords who are
in charge. And we got to fight the system.
No, what we have to do, I think, is to learn about how we, and I'm talking to
the white folks here, our people in power, we have to look at ourselves.

(59:37):
I think that's what always been my, that's been my message to myself.
And it's what I've been trying to say, probably not too assertively,
but I guess as well as I could.
Not that I made one bit of difference, by the way. I mean, not at all.
I learned that you can't change people's minds by logic.

(01:00:02):
You have to to get to know them and, you know, relationship and then help them maybe in some ways.
But I'll wrap this up.
My reflection on it is by saying, I think, and I've been saying this all along
because I really believe it.
I don't think we even have to look, quote, up there.

(01:00:23):
I don't think we have to even go thinking about UFOs or, you know,
fourth density or fifth density or sixth extensity or the law of one metaphysics.
And I'm saying this as somebody who loves the law of one metaphysics.
I love the woo woo stuff, man.
You know, I, I wake up in the morning, open up a can of esoterica.

(01:00:45):
I mean, I,
But all that stuff doesn't teach me anything deeper than what I already know,
having just engaged the world as it is.
And I think that there are powers that be, I would argue, if not directly controlled by white men,

(01:01:13):
it is the effects of colonization.
And I think that the powers that be.
And I would argue that this is true for all of probably history of the world,
the powers that be have in their best interest to stay in power.

(01:01:37):
And so, of course, they're going to work in the background in any way they can.
Any way we can, I include myself in this, to keep people like me in power and
people like you from ever achieving the capacity to change the status quo.

(01:01:58):
Whoa, I mean, that is, huh?
I also think there's a really key thing that to me is a central point of the
distress that the truth in community and disclosure community is becoming aware of.
One of the major, major components of systemic oppression is to keep the majority

(01:02:25):
from either seeing or understanding that there is a system that is operated,
that it's not just about individual choices and individual outcomes,
but to keep people from questioning the order of operations in which they live.
There's an amazing amount of time, money, and effort, whether we're looking at the Koch brothers.

(01:02:53):
Construction and funding of what we now understand is the religious right.
That wasn't a phenomenon that existed.
That was two extremely wealthy men that realized that by harnessing religious
fervor, that they could spend about a trillion dollars.
They projected how much they would spend in the 60s and 70s when they planned this.
There's a, there's wonderful books about it.

(01:03:15):
Those are all democracy and change, right? But they planned the rise of the
religious right and how that could be hijacked to create the situation that
we currently have with GOP.
And for people to realize in one way or another that they're part of a system
that they didn't choose and that what they feel are their values have been constructed

(01:03:36):
or handed to them in any degree or any capacity,
that's a very frightening set of things to discover.
To discover that they're not in control when a major component of the system
working is Is white people feeling like they are in control?
People are going to be very startled, very scared, and very,

(01:03:58):
very frightened and very vulnerable.
And if you don't have the undergirding of knowing why this happened and where
it came from, hell yeah, you're going to be pointing to the clouds in the sky.
What else have you been given to believe, honestly?
So I have, you know, just the greatest respect and empathy for what you're saying, for what Victor said,

(01:04:23):
for, you know, for people that are, that are, that have been told a very,
very well-constructed, extremely expensive and very convincing lie.
It's kind of just like watching folks kind of wake up they realize that they're
in the Truman Show and they're very frightened and I hope.

(01:04:49):
More bandwidth available to to
bring compassion and understanding to that
to that fear and i think that a lot of what
you is part of healing that
thank you well thank you yeah
i want to reflect a little bit on what you're saying there i say that why i

(01:05:10):
maybe focus in on the individual of going in and working on one's own way to
process catalysts efficiently is because we do have to,
I do believe we have to start with our experience as we perceive it in this
body, in this time, in this way.

(01:05:31):
And I can tell you that as a counselor for the past 22 years,
There's the great equalizer to break down the people's biases,
even if they can... Well, no, let me say it this way.
People can still continue to have incredibly strong, entrenched ideologies,
but suffering, especially things like anxiety and depression,

(01:05:57):
will bring people, individuals,
to a place of, I need to work on this.
And so then they maybe they go to a counselor and that's a great act of courage
for them especially if they've been taught never to do that because you just
got to pray that shit away you know or the the new age term and there's so many

(01:06:18):
of them out there i i don't want to name them because.
Well people know but the new age tropes are you know you've we create our own
reality and And there's ways to just move past anxiety and depression.
You're kind of choosing that if you have it.
You know, there's always some grains of truth to, oh, good.

(01:06:42):
Look, that's good. Could you describe a little more what you mean?
Oh, sure. The Calvinist idea of, you know, it's been preordained,
was worthy or not worthy or chosen or not chosen.
And I know that not all Calvinists adhere to this in extremists,
but that base theological idea,

(01:07:05):
sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell, can take on some really interesting legs.
With like like bootstrap theory and the
basis of capitalism theory yeah you know you have
what you're worth you're worth what you have and then
you just you just add just a

(01:07:25):
tiny a tiny sprinkle of some beautiful
uh appropriated eastern objects you know
to your to your your setup there and you
have the basis for your you are
attracting this you are magnetizing this you
are calling in this you can override through
freedom tech you know emotional technique you know

(01:07:47):
there's that and the other and if you can't then you're just low vibe yeah that's
how that's how we get to the next yeah oh i like that because that that's the
biggest that's one of the biggest problems that i see in the new age community
and it it drives me nuts you know on the other hand there there is
something to be said about to the degree that I am looking at my, my perspective.

(01:08:13):
And if I'm only going to see one thing, then that's the one thing I'm going to see.
You know, if I'm only going to see how shitty the life is, even if my life is
pretty shitty, but that will be the only thing I see.
And, and so without throwing away this concept of like the environment and the
cultural issues that we have, certainly the systemic oppression,

(01:08:37):
when it comes down to one person and their experience, all they have is themselves
and their experience in terms of paying attention to that.
Now, it could be we can encounter the self.
I think there's two ways to encounter the self in this way.
One is paying attention to why am I feeling a particular kind of trigger.

(01:09:01):
That doesn't mean you throw it away. That doesn't mean you get rid of the anger,
especially if there's oppression.
But then asking the self, what do you want to do with that?
You know, can we, do you want to put that towards something that,
you know, what are the goals of someone?
That's what I always ask, you know, whether they're brown, black,

(01:09:21):
or white is when we identify the pain that they're feeling and kind of articulate that.
The other question that I then ask is, well, what do we want to do with that?
If you could wave your magic wand and you couldn't change the whole world here,
I mean, we're working on that, but your own personal way to go through life

(01:09:42):
from here to there today, what would you like?
And sometimes that is the first time they've ever allowed themselves to imagine,
what they would like to feel not necessarily, you know, well,
I'd like to have a million dollars, you know.
Okay, I'd like to feel rich. Okay. But what would, how would you like to feel

(01:10:06):
feeling rich? You know what I mean?
Well, I'd like to feel joy or happiness. All right. Well, what does that look
like? And so then you kind of break it down a little, little bit.
And I think the important thing, this is the really hard stuff perhaps,
and I'd love to see what your thoughts are on it, is how do we get to a place,

(01:10:28):
no matter what demographic we might come from, how can we get to a place where
we learn how to hold the tension of,
and the perspective,
I think Ra would call this blu-ray energy, but this idea of there is a macro

(01:10:48):
world where all All of us are one body.
You know, human beings are cells inside this larger corpus.
And these cells, there's big problems here.
And there are injustices. The way I define justice or injustice,
at least at this point, is probably not a very good one, but good definition.

(01:11:08):
But the way I kind of think of it is justice is sort of the whatever it takes
to get wholeness actualized.
You know, whatever's happening, that wholeness out there, unity and wholeness
is actualized where people's dignity are held together, you know, a mutual dignity.

(01:11:29):
And injustice is where you have inherent asymmetry or inherent modes of separation
for the sake of manipulation.
You know, it's injustice. So, how can we, on one hand, work for wholeness-making in our outer world,
while at the same time realize that we ourselves are working towards wholeness-making on the inner life?

(01:11:55):
And there's places inside me that are separated for various reasons,
and I can kind of work on that.
And that I'm also, I can identify with the outer suffering, but it's also somehow
not exactly who I am either.
You know, so like, for example, I can identify as a white male,

(01:12:20):
straight white male in Texas, you know, married. I can identify that.
But if I just stay right there and don't go any deeper into that.
Know if deeper is the right word, but if I'm not more comprehensive in seeing
other variables that I also am, and what do I want to do about all these things?

(01:12:41):
Can I hold them all in tension?
So I guess what I'm trying to say, and I'll sum up, is how do we hold in tension
the work that needs to be done in the outer world to make it more of a holistic,
wholeness-making, justice place?
Learn about all of the injustices and work towards that.
How can we hold that righteous anger, the hermeneutic of suspicion,

(01:13:02):
which rightly belongs there, huh?
How can we do that while at the same time work towards some degree of harmony
and balance so that our lived experience of being here, embodied here,
is one of meaning-making and intense meaning-making, purpose,

(01:13:26):
dare I say joy? How do we do that, do you think?
I think that that's one of the most important questions that we can be asking ourselves at this time,
particularly within any community that's setting itself forward to look to the future with love.

(01:13:47):
I think that looking at the future with love,
baseline default requires an
intersectional approach to how people in the community can process love,
feel love, and experience that love comes. And that.

(01:14:11):
And I could you could you maybe speak a
little bit of your experience of what that means to kind of
put flesh on it please and also one other thing I want to ask you too is I think
you said in my in your message to me something would you say tyranny instead
of hierarchy it was tyranny yeah so uh hierarchy is a term that's relatively new

(01:14:35):
to me and I'm really excited about it because it all
of the things that have come into the lexicon very rightfully that
we point at right we'll say this is white supremacy this is patriarchy this
is ableist this is sexist and yes all of those things are true but sometimes
there's a risk of over identifying brain when people are enacting one piece of a wider system.

(01:15:01):
Kiriaki is basically any form of activity that is going to court hierarchical
oppression, no matter what axis it lands on, whether that's,
fatphobia or racism or progeny or anything.
And it can just help us give a little bit of space with the instinct to go,

(01:15:23):
okay, that man right there is practicing oppressive practices and that person
right there is is applying something that is misogyny.
They are bad and they are wrong and they are... It's not that their behavior doesn't get...
Identified and recompensated,
looked at, we can back up just a little bit and say I am seeing an instance

(01:15:49):
where I am watching at play in the system that I'm in.
I'm part of it as witness, the person who is enacting violence is part of it,
the person who is enacting violence is part of it, all standing in different
positions in this system.
What you plural want to do you know it's

(01:16:10):
that it's that old adage from marriage counseling right it's like
it's not it's not you're wrong or they're wrong
it's we have a problem what do you yeah that's
beautiful but but in that we we have
an expensive fucking word doug like we have
the very expensive word to hold in the
space and the unity of the word we and i

(01:16:32):
i think that there's there's two ways to come
at it the first way is a very start where you are way
that i'm going to say i didn't give
a lot of credence to until i spent a year meaning that
you're in that you that you need the
building force there's as as you
know i'm kind of quiet like i sit a

(01:16:53):
lot like i talk every now and then but i'm
mostly there to just listen and absorb the the energy
you know most most days and just the
act of knowing that there are people that are sincerely with their whole heart
really for real trying to understand the world and each other it took me about
maybe eight months of like seeing multiple black people keep coming back yeah Yeah.

(01:17:23):
And the effortless, non-posturing, natural outflow of solidarity that would
come when queer issues were discussed, when issues of international war were discussed.
It wasn't about platforming. It wasn't about anything. Most of the people in the group.
Saying hey this is what's going on and here's how

(01:17:44):
i feel about it in my heart how can i hold it better i was
like huh the group is still majority majority
white but there are more there are more black and brown and other people and
folks concerned with other people that i've seen in any spiritual space that
i've been in that wasn't specifically created by and for the bipod experience
and maybe about six months then i was like huh these white people may not in

(01:18:07):
fact be trying to eat me. That's interesting.
So, like, the transformative act of being in the space, there's,
you know, there's nothing that is, you know, specifically brought up, specifically done.
It's just the expectation of giving and receiving contemplation and care and empathy as a practice.

(01:18:33):
That we've been going through together.
I think that that is amazing and i think that everything
kind of starts there in terms of
where i think it go just in terms
of like you know the wider context not specifically before as people are looking
at movement this is resource and a bandwidth-based set of issues there are tangible

(01:19:00):
laws on the books that make people's lives bad there are tangible
income gaps that make people's lives bad.
There are tangible opportunity gaps that make people's lives bad.
When things are making people's lives bad, they're not really patient for doing
shit with other folks. It's actually other stuff that's going to be complicated.
And that's going to be true whether you have a potentially financially.

(01:19:25):
Disenfranchised white man who is trying to figure
out what to do with all of this rage that from
what he needs to understand to when you have a
a person that is of a traditionally marginalized identity that may have resources
but is really understanding that they're they're going uphill a lot of interference

(01:19:47):
their experience in their in their economic social civic experience period.
I think that the real key in my perspective is when you have groups of people
that have chosen to come together, five, 10 people,
50 people that have chosen to gather around,

(01:20:09):
toward this future with love, really understanding as much as anyone is willing to talk about.
What does your life actually look like? Where are the places where there is
pain that has caused you or your family that has nothing to do with your individual
choices or your individual behavior?

(01:20:31):
What are you dealing with? What are you grateful for?
What are you up against? What's going on?
And the biggest question, where do you need help?
To ask the question, where do you need help in America is very complicated.
I don't know if you saw it, but literally, Elmo asked everybody how they were doing.
And Elmo got, you know, $2 trillion worth of mental health care needs exposed

(01:20:55):
in Latin America because people replied to Elmo honestly about how they were doing.
Like, we're talking Elmo Sesame Street, Elmo. Yeah, wow. How are you doing?
And people told Elmo how they were doing, and it was bad.
Well they they must have intuited that elmo wasn't

(01:21:15):
actually playing the normal game of oh i'm fine how are you yeah elmo cares
yeah we've been we've been trained in the culting did since very young childhood
to rightfully know elmo cares and i believe the sesame street workshop started
took that as their cue to integrate more mental health and societal,
health things into their programming because pbs has you know pbs has been riding

(01:21:38):
for us beginning. Shout out PBS. Yeah, for real.
But as you just said, getting beyond that normative question and not pushing,
because there's a certain amount of trust that needs to get built up in a group
before those things are disclosed.
But when somebody really answers the question, how are you doing?

(01:21:59):
Understanding the systemic factors that are informing that answer of how they're
doing or understanding how some of the gaps that led to their honest response
of how they're doing. Where do those things come from?
What would it mean to tend to those things?
And if you do three or four iterations of that deep listening,

(01:22:20):
you're going to find yourself in a very tricky position of being tempted to
be an ally as somebody works upstream against the feminine.
That creates a very interesting life. And that creates a very interesting life,
because it's not to unpack justice because.

(01:22:42):
Recognition of problems being directly caused by lack of money or directly caused
by lack of support or directly caused because,
you know, something happened and they don't, they don't have a parent's house
to go to and fall back on because that parent could be incarcerated or that
parent was systemically denied and redlined out of being able to have a house
or maybe their family did have a house and then somebody decided to build a

(01:23:05):
freeway over it and evacuated the black or brown neighborhood to build that
freeway happens all the time.
So like, why, why? Why do these things happen? Why are they there?
And what can be done to support the person in the immediate?
And also, what could we plural be looking at for the wider system that these
things are happening in?
You start asking questions about wider systems, especially as a white male who

(01:23:31):
may actually get through the door with these questions,
you end up in a place where, you know, you're speaking to the people that are
communicating with these systems.
And the book with that, that's going to be very educational.
Yeah, and I can tell you that there's a loneliness.
I mean, but it's something that I, look, I'm not any great worker of this.

(01:23:57):
I admire so many people that are so much more, advocate so much better.
But I do learn from them. And I would say, though, that in my own family,
my own experience, my family of origin and so on, for the vast majority of where
I came from, I am not understood.
And I remember a few years ago, my mom and dad, we were...

(01:24:23):
Met, I was already married. And so we, my family and them met over at another
family member's house for a gathering, a family gathering.
And they were just smiling at each other. And I said, what's going on?
They were kind of laughing and looking at me. And I said, well,
on the way over here, Doug, we were just asking ourselves like,
God, what went wrong with you?

(01:24:46):
I mean, how is it that you could possibly be a
democrat you know we
we and and and the only thing when they were honest this is this was it was
a joke but it was also not a joke so the only thing we can possibly think of
is that when you were i think you were about two or three years old you jumped

(01:25:08):
up and And you fell on your head in our living room. Say the minute.
Some kind of effective brain injury. I know I wasn't ready for the implication of a TBI.
Oh, wow. Yeah. Wild.
All right. So, but yeah, but I would say, you know, you, you,

(01:25:34):
you're speaking to my heart here. and also a teacher to me.
I can't see. I can want to see outside of my paradigm, but I can't fully see.
And I need my other selves who are not like me to kind of point the way through

(01:25:55):
their own lived experience.
And you do that for our group.
You do that for me. You do that for our group. And so thank you for just gifting
us with your presence and teaching us and for this conversation.
I have to go here in about three minutes, but I want to ask you one last real
quick question, perhaps, and that is, how are you, what is your,

(01:26:21):
this may not be something you can answer really quickly.
It's okay if you just say, let's do it another time.
You as somebody who is not the demographic that I grew up in,
black person, some color, non-binary, all of this.
How do you see people in your demographic maybe thinking about some of the more

(01:26:47):
esoteric stuff that you experience on a daily life?
Yeah, things like the law of one, or maybe not necessarily that particular material,
but you know, that esoteric stuff, like how do you see it received or understood?
Or do you have have a sense of that i'm not even sure
that's a good question that's a yeah yeah it's a great question i was i was

(01:27:09):
introduced to everything to do with with ufology and the things beyond by a
a black man in baton rouge that is the first person that ever got me thinking
about this and he had to work on me for years before i was going to listen.
Outside of that that specific circumstance
people are really focused on on

(01:27:31):
pragmatism the folks that i know who have made it to the other side of the poverty
burden are very fixated and focused rightfully on staying there and the folks
who haven't made it out there's a wonderful instagram sketch dealing with black
people and ufos who's a black man who says yeah ufo walked company i said i
don't give a fuck i rent you.

(01:28:00):
Go the fuck away unless you've got some money to help me out with this,
and and the folks that aren't living under threat of that are very focused focus
on the very specific jingle blocks that it took to not be in that position.

(01:28:23):
And they don't have time either.
So that kind of, you know, I know that we have to, I know we have to end,
but that's a, that's a great question. I'll be thinking.
Well, let's, let's circle back. I mean, let's, maybe we can have another chat
in a month or so and keep talking, keep the dialogue opening, open.
And shout out. Thanks so much to, to you and to Troy. Also, if you had told

(01:28:44):
me that some of my beautiful exemplars were going to be a bunch of white dudes
in Texas, I said, you were smoking crack.
And I really appreciate that because it's a testament to what the divine and
source and God can do when people show up with the right intentions and treat each other lovingly.
Well, amen. To whatever degree that I am able to be open to you is certainly a grace opinion.

(01:29:10):
Thanks. Thanks to God. Thank you so much for this great conversation.
And I will do some edits and then put it up.
And in the meantime, would you mind maybe in the next day or so,
if you could, if you have time, to go through and find any links on the internet

(01:29:30):
that you think would be a good thing to do to include in the show notes?
You know, you had mentioned several things, but any kind of resources that you
would like that have been meaningful for you or think would be helpful,
that would be wonderful. Yes.
Okay, good. Well, looking forward to continuing our friendship and see you on

(01:29:51):
Tuesday in our Building Forth gathering.
Thanks so much, brother. I appreciate you. Amen. God bless. Bye.