December 10, 2022 • 41 mins
In this episode Laura interviews Mediator and Facilitator Felicity Steadman. Felicity's career started out in the turbulent apartheid years in South Africa where she honed her dispute resolution skills and her capacity to work with diverse groups of people in the industrial relations field. She has mediated in 32 countries for more than thirty years, with more than 500 cases completed. After arriving in the UK in 2002 she quickly adapted to a new jurisdiction, qualified as a CEDR mediator and began mediating commercial disputes through CEDR. She was first accredited as a CEDR mediator in 2003, and in 2019 was appointed Head of Faculty at CEDR. In 2021 she was ranked by Legal 500 amongst their top mediators in the UK. She is a founding member of Oxford Mediation.
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Laura (00:11):
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping podcast from Mediate.com
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and today Ihave with me Felicity Steadman, longtime
mediator, head of faculty at CEDR'sMediation Skills Training course founder
and director of Conflict dynamics in SouthAfrica, and an all round wonderful human.
(00:32):
So welcome, Felicity.
Felicity Steadman (00:35):
Hi, Laura.
Lovely to be here.
Laura (00:37):
I'm very glad to have you here because like many superheroes, you have a
particular origin story in the field ofconflict transformation and mediation.
You weren't bitten by a radioactivespider in this case, but I understand
that from a very young age, you wereconvinced that mediation and dialogue
(00:58):
were essential to conflict transformation.
Felicity Steadman (01:00):
Yes.
Well, I grew up in South Africa.
I was born in 1959 into an a apartheidenvironment in a apartheid state.
And from a very young age, becameaware of the inequalities in the
society in which I was growing up.
I think particularly because my parentswere very much, in antia apart and
(01:24):
sort of liberals and also because.
It was very visible, interms of, separate buses
for different racial groups.
And I remember taking the buses toschool and being conscious of being
on buses for white people and seeingblack people getting on other buses.
And my mother gave me a letter someyears ago that she had written to my
(01:48):
father, in which she talks about, howI said to her, "Why can't the government
just talk to the people about their needsand interests instead of shooting them?
I'm absolutely convinced that the problemswill be resolved more peacefully",
(02:08):
and that was in the late sixties,so it was probably about 10 ish.
And, it was at a timeof protest in the country.
I don't know which protest it was, but,really from a very young age, I was very
conscious of first of all, the inequities,inequalities, inequities, surrounding
us, but also of the importance of talkingto people and trying to resolve things
(02:32):
through talking, through dialogue.
And that really took me on then to whenI was considering my career, to finding
a career where I would be helpfulin society and promoting dialogue.
And I did a, a four year honors degreein social work working in impoverished
communities during those four years,which was a real wake up call for a
(02:56):
young white, south African being inimpoverished communities or townships
as they're called, and schools in thosetownships, and really seeing the impact
of apartheid on children and families.
And the degree of conflictthat the system was causing.
(03:16):
So, I finished my degree and by theend of it, realized or felt that,
really what I would be doing as a socialworker was bandaiding and really just
putting patches on a broken system, anan unequal, unfair, broken system.
And that didn't seem to me to bewhat I really wanted to be doing.
Laura (03:40):
And yet clearly you did end up in the mediation field.
So how did you move from thiscynicism about social work and
its impact to actually becomingpart of the dialogue process?
Felicity Steadman (03:52):
So I immediately moved into the industrial relations
world because that was, in 1981,the one area in South Africa where
liberalization was happening, largelybecause the trade union movement had-
well, it was banned prior to 1981.
But there was so much unrest thatthe labor laws were liberalized
(04:16):
and black workers could startjoining legal trade unions.
And that seemed to me to be an areafor an amazing amount of dialogue,
especially in a society where therewas no possibility for dialogue at
that stage around the political system.
So I got involved in labor relationsand worked in a number of different
(04:39):
organizations, mostly third partytype organizations that were working
with both management and trade unions.
I did work for a shortwhile for a company.
And in all those experiences, I thought 'Ireally like that role at end of the table
or on the one side of the table whereI can help people talk across the table
(05:01):
rather than being on one or other side'.
And so I trained as a mediator in1989 and became involved in the
labor relations world as a mediator.
So that was really how my journey began.
Laura (05:17):
It's an incredible story, definitely.
And so I mean, at that time, was mediationvery common or doing mediation training?
Felicity Steadman (05:25):
Well, in the early eighties when the law was reformed
to legitimize black trade unions,the mechanism for dispute resolution
for all workers was that you had togo to what was called a conciliation
board with a dispute individual orcollective dispute first, and then
after that you went to the labor court,what was called the industrial court.
(05:49):
And those conciliation boards weresupposed to be a mediation opportunity for
mediation and working things out, but theywere very discredited, obviously, because
they were part of the Apartheid government
Laura (06:03):
Of course.
Felicity Steadman (06:04):
Machinery and all of the Conciliators and all the industrial
court judges were all white and 99% men.
And so it was very intimidating forblack workers to come into those forums
and they really didn't believe they werehaving going to have a fair hearing.
So in about 1984, A group of humanrights lawyers and academics and business
(06:31):
people, couple of trade unionists allof like mind got together and said,
"let's try and establish an independentmediation service independent to the
statutory conciliation boards, callit mediation, not conciliation.
Make it a different kind, a slightlydifferent kind of process, and encourage
unions and management to use mediationinstead of industrial action, and
(06:55):
instead of struggling through this reallyvery ineffective statutory process".
And it had support from it hadreally strong support from big
business- and I would say moreliberal business to begin with.
And then it also had strong trade unionsupport and we had fantastic support
(07:17):
from overseas funders, so all themajor European, British and American
funders who were funding anti Apartheidactivities- funded the organization.
It was called the IndependentMediation Service of South Africa,
IMSA, and I joined it in early 1989.
(07:38):
And we worked very closely withthe trade unions, with management,
providing mediation in the case ofindividual disputes and collective
wages and conditions of employmentor retrenchments, redundancies.
And we then, then in late 1989the country was in turmoil,
absolute turmoil politically, andthere was a state of emergency.
(08:02):
Townships were on fire, people were beingkilled by the police and the, and the
army and so we started talking about whatrole we could play in community conflict
and, and considering all our experience inIMSA what could we do to facilitate peace
(08:24):
building or peace making in communities.
And it was quite a difficult conversationbecause quite a few of the stalwarts,
sort of labor relations stalwarts said"no, we can't dilute our energies in the
labor field because that field needs,that whole sector needs to be, or those
(08:46):
relationships need to be stable for anypolitical transition to take place".
But at the end of the day, those whoargued in favor of sharing our experiences
into community dispute resolutionprevailed, and we set up the community
conflict dispute resolution service.
And quite quickly, it was approachedby the National Peace Accord, which
(09:11):
was established in the early ninetiesas a result of a, a dialogue that
was happening between the churchesmainly and business, over what to do
about the conflict in the country andthe political transition and so the
National Peace Accord was established.
They then approached IMSA for facilitatorsand trainers for community dispute
(09:36):
resolution committees, et cetera,and I became involved through IMSA
in the National Peace Accord as well,and that involved working in townships.
And townships are neighborhoodsthat were created by the Apartheid
government, separate from major cities.
(09:56):
On the outskirts of everycity would be a township where
black people were relocated.
And so, so those were really on fire.
And the National Peace Accordwas established to help, at a
very grassroots level, manage theconflict in those communities.
(10:17):
So there was a national peace accord sortof, constitution or agreements drafted and
signed, but at a local and regional level,there were dispute resolution committees
established throughout the country.
Laura (10:33):
And who was actually on those committees?
What role did they playin the whole process?
Felicity Steadman (10:39):
They were a mix.
The committees were a mix of communityrepresentatives, so trade unions, women's
groups, local activists, all sorts ofcommunity representatives as- business
as well- meeting with representativesof the police, the army and any, any
(10:59):
interest groups in that community.
Often townships were closelylinked to particular businesses.
So the businesses that were youknow, employing people from their
community might also be involved.
And we would have regular meetings atthe local dispute resolution committees
to talk about things like a big marchabout to happen, a protest ma march
(11:23):
about to happen, or a big funeral ofsomeone who'd been shot by the police
about the, the funeral about to happenand the conversation in the local
dispute resolution committee was howto make that happen in a peaceful way.
So there would be peace monitors who wouldhave a bib saying 'National Peace Accord',
(11:45):
who would literally be holding hands toseparate the police from the community.
There would be an agreement -ormaybe factions within the community.
For example, ANC C African NationalCongress versus the freedom
Party IFP and separating warringfactions with peace monitors.
(12:05):
They'd agree for example, that the policein the army would stay so many meters
away from the march, so that they wouldn'tbe a threat or incite any response.
And that if there was a need for anypolice intervention or the police
felt they needed to get involved, thenthere would be wireless communication-
(12:26):
walkie-talkie communication-about what would happen, so to
contain the potential for violence.
So I was involved in a couple of thelocal dispute resolution committees
and also quite closely involvedin training of those committees
in how to resolve conflict.
What is conflict?
(12:46):
How to, what skills do you need?
What process skills do you need?
And those were amazing experienceswhere you would have in the same
room, for a weekend workshop, peoplewho were absolutely on the opposite
sides of the political spectrum.
And I remember one particular situationwhere we had this exercise where people
(13:09):
had to, had a set of questions andthey had to find someone in the room
that was unknown to them and had to askthem these questions and then introduce
them to the group using their answers.
And so two men got togetherand one of the questions was,
"tell me about your family".
And the one guy said, "well,very sadly, my son died.
(13:33):
He was shot on the border in Angola,in the conflict between South Africa
and Angola" you know, beyond Namibia.
And the other guy said , "well, myson was, shot in Angola as well".
The one guy's son had been shot bythe South African Defense force and
(13:54):
the other guy's son had been shot byuMkhonto we Sizwe, who were the armed
wing of the African National Congress.
And so these two men in Johannesburg,both had sons who'd been shot by their
constituencies in a foreign land and theythen, you know, just burst into tears.
(14:15):
And then the, some of theother questions were, you know,
what's your favorite sport?
And they both loved rugby be, andwhat's your favorite TV program?
And they both loved some other TV program.
So the potential for common ground was,just, you know, very sad common ground,
but also common ground that people couldbe relaxed about and, and be happy about.
(14:39):
And so those experienceswere absolutely seminal.
Laura (14:43):
Hmm.
And you mentioned earlier thatthe justice and reconciliation
systems were quite racialized.
Were they also gendered?
Felicity Steadman (14:53):
I should just say that as a woman, it was very,
challenging because there weren't verymany women involved in, in this work.
Particularly not at the seniorregional Dispute Resolution
Committee or national levels.
There were women in, in the local disputeresolution committees, the women's
groups, the the church groups, et cetera.
(15:13):
There were definitely women on the groundand they were strong and very important.
But the facilitators and the trainerswere mostly men, and I was just itching
to be more and more and more involved.
But I had two tiny children, oneborn in 1990 and one born in 1987.
(15:34):
And that although my husband was a, youknow, a hundred percent involved father,
110% involved father um, there's thatpull between, you know, being involved
and trying to make a difference, buthaving the responsibilities of a parent
and also not wanting to worry people,you know, because there, I'd be hopping
(15:58):
my car driving off into a, literallya war zone, and and then coming back
to this suburban reality alternativereality, which was rather strange.
Laura (16:10):
It sounds bizarre.
It must have been quite the strange thing.
Felicity Steadman (16:13):
Yeah.
Laura (16:15):
I mean, it's a fascinating story and I'd like to just circle
back for a minute if you don't mind,because when you mentioned doing
mediation with the trade unions and thebusinesses, right, and you highlighted
that previously, the conciliationboards in place, they were all white.
They were structures of apartheid.
I mean, how were you able to buildtrust in this mediation service?
(16:39):
Cause obviously you were there andyou were white, and how is it that you
managed to get them to trust you in theface of this idea of, well, the white
people are here and they're gonna actuallybe causing problems in this situation.
How did you build that trust?
Felicity Steadman (16:53):
Yes, well, many of the people are slightly older than, that
were involved in the establishment of theorganization had been politically active
in the student movement in the seventies.
And a number of them had beenbanned as, as it was called in South
Africa, under house arrest and thatsort of thing for activities that
(17:14):
the state regarded as subversive.
So they.
Credibility because of their veryreal actions and experiences.
And then also I had, I hadgot involved when was it?
Yes, as a student, and then justafter graduating, I'd become involved
in various other activities likean organization called the the
(17:37):
workers aid project, which wasa, there were lots of these NGOs,
little NGOs trying to do things.
And this was a workers education project.
And it was a little project that wasopen most hours to provide advice,
a bit like a Citizen's Advice Bureaufor workers on their rights, you know,
(18:00):
unclaimed wages that were being denied orunfair dismissal, all that sort of thing.
And some of the people associatedwith that organization were
people who'd been in detention.
In fact, one particular person, Neil Agar,was murdered by the a Apartheid Police.
In the, the notorious John ForsterSquare, as it was called, arrested
(18:21):
and, and died in detention.
So, all those associationsbuild credibility, you know, so.
I've always said about credibilityand neutrality as a mediator, you
can't just switch it on and switchit off and say, "I am neutral.
I am impartial".
You have to walk the talkin everything you do.
And so it comes down to being involvedin things that demonstrate that you
(18:45):
you care and that you are genuine abouthelping people have good conversations,
but also achieve their human rights.
And and then also really downto the little things, like how
you greet people, how you howyou show respect in the moment.
And so there's a particular way of shakinghands with black people in South Africa.
(19:08):
I wouldn't presume to do it automatically,but if you are about to shake someone's
hand and you get the feel that they'regoing to do the handshake then,
you know, be able to do it easily.
I learned Zulu so I could speak verybasic Zulu to people I was working with.
And so a lot of it is just reallydown to how you treat people
and how you work with people.
(19:29):
And I do remember a colleague saying tome- because I I left IMSA after a couple
of years when I had my second child, orafter having my second child in order to
work actually more closely on a, anothercommunity dispute resolution project.
And she said, "oh, it'ssuch a pity you're going.
It's amazing how quickly you'vebuilt up credibility with the trade
(19:50):
unions", because it was a veryprecious commodity that you had to
work carefully on and, and retain.
I mean, I would have a naturalcredibility with management
who were white at that point,
Laura (20:06):
Mm.
Felicity Steadman (20:06):
but not with black trade unionists
who were predominantly men.
But that just changed with, yeah,I suppose the way I worked and,
and, and I enjoyed it, you know.
And the organization overall had goodcredibility for treating people fairly,
and we also, arbitrated and I, soI was also an arbitrator, and so the
(20:28):
decisions coming out of arbitrationand the outcomes of mediation were
regarded as even handed and fair.
And so that builds credibility, you know,the outcomes leave people with a sense
that, 'yeah, I got a good outcome' or 'ifI didn't get what I want, I can understand
why', and that builds credibility.
Laura (20:52):
Incredible.
I mean, it's a really inspirationalstory you've presented, honestly, and
something that really strikes me isthat, earlier when you were talking
about this letter with your mother,you were described as 'sensible'.
And yet, you know, most people's ideaof being sensible doesn't involve
driving into war zones or trying tosolve, you know, solve the problem
of peace in South Africa, right?
(21:13):
So it's really incredible and speaksto your character that part of 'being
sensible' is this dedication tojustice is bringing people together.
So huge kudos for that to say the least.
Felicity Steadman (21:24):
Well, I should also just say that, you know, it was- from
my point of view and my colleaguesand friends- it wasn't difficult.
It was an unambiguouslyobvious position to take.
And so, and it felt as though we wereall on the moral high ground, you know,
being anti Apartheid And my contributionwas tiny compared to many, many people.
(21:47):
I mean, really, people lost their lives.
People were in exile, peoplewere in prison you know, for
many, many years as we know.
And ah but I had my fair share ofvisits from the security police
and all those sorts of scary things.
And that was the place we lived in,which was really pretty ghastly.
Laura (22:07):
I'm getting a lot of chills here, Felicity, so
thank you so much for sharing.
And so after this period,then, cuz you left IMSA.
I mean, I understand that yourmediation journey took you
into different fields of work.
Was that then, or was that later on?
Felicity Steadman (22:20):
Well it started out in labor management work and then through
the peace accord more into peace makingat a sort of more community level
between factions within communities.
But at the same time, I got involvedin the more typical community dispute
resolution within a community.
And so that was in a in a townshipcalled Alexandra Township where
(22:44):
we had a project going called aCommunity Dispute Resolution Trust.
And it was based very much on modelthe sort of North American model of
community dispute resolution centerswhere you'd set up a center, train
local mediators you know, it would be acommunity resource, and disputes within
(23:05):
the community would be brought to thecenter to be resolved by local mediators.
And the reason for this was that lawand order had really broken down so
fundamentally that, and, and peopledidn't trust, the police, didn't trust
taking a matter to a police station, thatkangaroo courts, as they were called,
were rife in that community in particular.
(23:27):
So people, and people wouldbe, disciplined by the
community in very brutal ways.
You know, beatings and you've heardof necklacing, you know, pulling
a tire over someone, settingthem alight, that sort of thing.
And so the community dispute resolutionor a community dispute resolution trust,
the idea there was to establish- tobuild capacity within a community to
(23:51):
resolve conflicts over neighborhoodissues, barking dogs and noisy neighbors.
And so I got involved in that, and thatwas after spending a six month period
in America, in Harrisonburg in Virginia,where they had a local community dispute
resolution service that I volunteered at.
And just seeing the power of mediating-between neighbors, between businesses,
(24:17):
in a little community, a tiny community.
And I remember doing facilitating amatter between the volunteer firefighters
in Harrisonburg and and, you know,here are these volunteers giving their
time to the local community but theyare all in conflict with each other,
and so using mediation skills to justhelp at that very, very local level.
(24:41):
So I did that.
So that took me into sort of anotheraspect of community mediation, and
then when I came to the UK in 2003,I discovered that actually the
dispute resolution service here,ACAS, does a good job with labor
related employment related disputes.
And that unless I was gonna work foracas, there wasn't any possibility
(25:03):
of freelance work of that kind, andthat's really what I wanted to do.
So I found out about CEDR the Centerfor Effective Dispute Resolution, and
I did their course and that took meinto commercial mediation and then
more recently into workplace mediation,because in the UK, things have sort
(25:24):
of come full circle for me, certainly,where there wasn't much opportunity
for employment and workplace mediationbecause acas was doing a good job.
But actually workplace mediationhas developed very strongly because
employers are realizing that theyshouldn't be waiting until they get
(25:46):
an ACAS claim, they need to dealwith things much, much earlier.
And the guidelines from acasencourage early resolution anyway-
informal as opposed to formal.
So I've kind of come full circle where Inow do a lot of employment and workplace.
And I am constantly thinking back to myearlier years in industrial relations
(26:07):
and drawing on that experience.
But then I also do commercialmediation and disputes referred
by the court of appeal, forexample, or other basic commercial
contract, often contractual matters.
Yeah, so I've never venturedinto family mediation.
I had one, one.
Laura (26:28):
One left for the checklist.
Felicity Steadman (26:30):
No, no.
I had one, one horrible experience orscary experience where the, I was asked to
mediate- this was a long time ago- betweena husband and wife over just assets.
So it wasn't sort of familymediation, it was really just assets.
And it came down to the dog and thedresser, the kitchen dresser, and I just.
It was so emotional and so out of control.
(26:54):
And I, I think I was not mature enoughand not skilled enough to know how
to deal with that level of emotion,that I was so frightened off it.
So I've never done that kind of mediation.
Laura (27:07):
I mean, I think it's understandable.
I once had a mediator to tellme a very similar story, but it
wasn't over a kitchen dresser.
It was over a toilet brush.
Felicity Steadman (27:17):
Oh gosh.
Laura (27:17):
Yeah.
And so this entire emotional divorcestarted to really hinge on this,
the toilet brush and who owns it.
And I, I have no idea what the restof the story was, but it, you know,
it was obviously highly emotional.
Wasn't really about the toiletbrush, but it's amazing how these
objects, gain a their own right.
Felicity Steadman (27:35):
Yes, we did manage to reach agreement on
visitation rights about the dog, but
Laura (27:40):
The m I could say the dresser.
I mean, it's important tovisit one's kitchen dresser.
Felicity Steadman (27:44):
yes.
Laura (27:46):
Oh my goodness.
And so given you've worked in these verydifferent fields, I mean, it it's quite
unusual because you'll often see peoplewho started in that sort of commercial
area of mediation, and they'll, they'lldo that for a few years and then they'll
go, oh, why didn't we use this in thesocial context, in the community context?
So all the community mediais like, here we exist.
(28:07):
And so you've seen really thefull spectrum and you've
gone the other way around.
So do you see any fundamentalsimilarities or differences between
these different types of mediationor these different contexts of
mediation or perhaps the skillsrequired in these different mediations?
Felicity Steadman (28:23):
Yeah, and a lot of the differences really around process.
I think with commercial mediation,it's very often a one day event with
some work up front in the preparationand party contact, and then it's
a, a day or maybe a two days, butit's quite contained, and it's quite
(28:47):
dispute focused and it comes to an end.
And the end is the conclusion'swritten down and there's an agreement.
However, in certainly communityor political type conflicts,
it's much more drawn out.
You have to think much morecarefully about process design.
You have to think much more carefullyabout who needs to be at the table.
(29:10):
And so there's a lot of work upfrontwith stakeholders to help them
set the table up appropriately andbring the right people to the table.
Ensure that those people havemandates and that they have
authority from their constituencies.
And then the actual processcan be very drawn out.
(29:34):
And then the, the follow up and the,well, the potential for deadlock
is greater because it's oftennot focused on a single dispute.
It's, it's about relationships and,you know, community engagement.
And so it's a much more, I'd call itmore facilitation really than mediation.
(29:55):
And then in, in terms ofworkplace mediation, there
again, it's not a one day wonder.
It's a staged process because it involvesthe employer telling the employees
to go and sort their problem out.
And we know that mediation worksbetter where people voluntarily come.
(30:15):
So you have to turn itfrom being told to go.
To, oh, yes, I do want to go.
And so that early engagementis really critical.
So I would speak to the party on thephone or in a Zoom call, then meet them
individually to hear what has happened,to build rapport, to build a solid
(30:37):
understanding of the mediation processand what to expect and how to prepare.
And then we would have the mediation day,which might actually be two half days.
And then some follow up sometime later.
And of course in workplace mediation,you're accountable to the person
who appointed you to the employer,or you are accountable to both.
(31:00):
You're accountable to the people in themediation, but also to the employer.
So being really, really clearabout their expectations.
Confidentiality of the processand what you may or may not
be able to achieve or convey.
And being clear that it'snot an investigation, there
won't be a report or finding.
So, whereas in commercial mediationespecially where they're lawyers,
(31:22):
they know what mediation is, they knowwhat the parameters are, they come in.
You're really helping them sort it out.
Workplace mediation, you are helpingthem sort it out, but you're also
educating so much about and modelingeffective communication skills and
processes and helping them reallytry and do it better next time around.
Laura (31:47):
Mm, incredible.
Felicity Steadman (31:49):
Yeah, so yeah, process is very, is different.
Very different.
And so I don't think you canjust hop from one to the other.
You need training in the, so youcan do a basic mediation skills
course for commercial mediation,you know general mediation.
But then if you're gonna be a workplacemediator, you need specialist training.
If you're going to be a peacemaker,you need specialist training.
(32:12):
They, it's different.
You can't be a mediatorfor every situation.
But the principles aroundconfidentiality, with our prejudice,
neutrality, impartiality, allof those are basically the same.
And and all the, all the relationshipskills will be very similar in terms
(32:33):
of building trust, rapport- building,decent communication skills, ethics.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Laura (32:41):
Brilliant.
Thank you for that insight.
And I'm really glad you said wecan't just jump from one to another
because I think sometimes that'sa trap we can maybe fall into.
But moving on to something else, I'dreally like to know something that has
surprised you as a practicing mediator.
You know something you expected towork but didn't or perhaps the reverse?
Felicity Steadman (33:02):
I think the thing that always surprises me is how,
no matter how much self-awarenessI might think I have or how much
bias training I have done and do.
I'm always surprised at how quicklyI'm drawn to one or the other side.
(33:23):
It usually evens out quite quicklybecause you know, I'll listen to
the first party and I think, wow,that just sounds so reasonable.
And what could theother side possibly say?
And then I hear the other sideand think, oh, this is just as
reasonable, if not more reasonable.
And so it just affirms for meall the time, the work you have
(33:44):
to do as a mediator to step backand maintain your impartiality.
And it's not just in what yousay, it's in how you look.
I had a mediation recently where thelawyer for the one party, barrister for
the one party said " I can see Felicityof you you don't agree with that?"
(34:06):
And I said, "but why Ihaven't said anything?"
And he said, "well, you're frowning".
And I said, "well, Ido have frown lines."
I struggle to, I needsome Botox or something
Laura (34:17):
Oh my goodness.
Felicity Steadman (34:20):
But I, you know, he caught me in that moment and I,
it's not that I was being critical,I was just wondering how what his
client was saying was going tosit with the the people next door.
And I mean actually I did findtheir position rather difficult.
And clearly I was givingsome of that away.
(34:40):
And so that's whatsurprises me all the time.
And I think the other thing that surprisesme, You know, you never really know
what people's bottom lines really areand where they will go to in a mediation.
So just when I think this is not gonnawork there's move movement and so it
(35:05):
may be a shifting mandate or authority.
It may be some goodreality testing I've done.
And they've gone away andthey've thought, 'wow, we
hadn't thought about that'.
Maybe it's something in the processthat has influenced it, like bringing
the lawyers together to do a bitof knocking heads over the merits.
But you kind of have to expect theunexpected and you just can't give up.
(35:27):
You know, and, and just keep pushing.
Not pushing, but keep encouraging people
Laura (35:32):
Keep facilitating the experience.
Felicity Steadman (35:34):
Yes.
. Exactly.
Yeah.
Laura (35:39):
And so if you were starting out again today, what
advice would you give yourself?
Felicity Steadman (35:45):
This is gonna sound really weird.
I, I think I would do a law degree because
Laura (35:51):
That does sound weird.
Felicity Steadman (35:52):
Yeah, I think I, I, I think, the social work degree was
incredibly valuable from the point ofview of opening my eyes to the world of
inequality really, and poverty, et cetera.
I would then go on and do a law degreebecause actually in the real world,
(36:12):
out there the drivers of power inorganizations are very often lawyers.
And the way they think isreally important to understand.
And so my work as an arbitrator was,has always stood me in incredibly good
(36:32):
stead, to be able to talk to peopleabout their alternative in rights.
So to say, "well, take methrough the merits here.
How will it be giving evidence?
Have you been cross-examined before?
Tell me about your risk assessment,your chances of success before
a judge or before a jury".
Understanding trial process and justbeing able to speak that language.
(36:55):
I wouldn't practice as a lawyer, butjust understanding that I think would
give me the confidence, the credibilitythat unfortunately, is helpful.
For the non-lawyers, it'sreally, really difficult.
I think very often people think I'm alawyer and I mean, if they say, "well,
as, as you would know as a lawyer",of course I disabuse them of it.
(37:19):
But they, when they're choosingmediators, whether you are a lawyer
or not a lawyer is a huge factor,and in such a competitive market
that's something that would help.
If I was, if I was, you know,to dedicate my life to, to
peacemaking or family mediation,then I wouldn't think about it.
But if you want to be involved inmainstream commercial mediation or even
(37:43):
labor management mediation, I mean, I havelabor management legal qualifications.
I've done a higher diploma in labor lawand that sort of thing in a law school.
And that was really helpful.
But to develop an internationalcommercial mediation practice, you'll
be chosen more quickly as a lawyer.
(38:05):
That's a sad, the longand the short sad fact.
Laura (38:08):
Yeah.
Okay.
I've never aspired to be a commercialmediator anyway, so we're good.
We're good.
Felicity Steadman (38:15):
Yes.
Laura (38:17):
Super.
So then as a final question, what issomething that inspires you in your work?
Felicity Steadman (38:24):
What inspires me?
I, I think I really fundamentally believethat if you can get people to talk,
you can achieve a huge amount or youcan help them achieve a huge amount.
My husband often says to me, "why dowe have to sit down and talk about it?"
So I said," well, you do need to do that.
You, you you do need to actuallyhave a process, sit down and
(38:50):
have a way of talking about it."
Be it something happening athome or something happening
more formally between parties.
You need a safe space witha framework of an agreement.
Some rules, some ways of workingwith things, ways of talking.
And so what inspires me is that if youcan just get people to take that leap
(39:13):
of faith into that process, into thatspace you can achieve a huge amount.
And so often people go from I'min conflict with the other person
to, and I'm going to get them,I'm going to find a way to to, to,
Laura (39:32):
Punish them to get them back or to destroy them even.
Felicity Steadman (39:35):
Or, or, or get someone to decide that I'm right.
And so, and on that journey between theconflict and the punishment, the use of
power or the use of a right based approachlike arbitration or litigation, there's
a whole lot of things that you can do.
And so I feel inspired by encouragingpeople to do that -or when they're
(39:59):
in the bad place already down thetrack with power litigation, Ukraine,
for example, and Russia, you canalways come back to the table.
You can always, so helping people youknow, find their way back to the table.
You don't have to give up on the poweror give up on the litigation to talk.
Um, A of it is about saving face,and helping people sort of just
(40:23):
step to the side of the process orthe conflict and just see if they
can work it out in a different way.
So I find that inspiring.
I've just seen it work again andagain, especially coming from South
Africa where we are very consensusoriented, although it's still a very
conflictual society for other reasons.
Not so much to do with politics as to dowith crime and the economy, et cetera.
(40:47):
And so I, I've seen it work.
Laura (40:51):
Well Felicity, thank you so much for joining me today.
And for those interested inlearning more about you or your
work, where can they find you?
Felicity Steadman (40:59):
On my website, a Felicity Steadman co UK.
Laura (41:03):
Fabulous.
All right.
Well, until next time for everybodyelse, this is Laura May with the Conflict
Tipping podcast from Mediate.com Dot.
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping podcast from Mediate.com
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and today Ihave with me Felicity Steadman, longtime
mediator, head of faculty at CEDR'sMediation Skills Training course founder
and director of Conflict dynamics in SouthAfrica, and an all round wonderful human.
(00:32):
So welcome, Felicity.
Felicity Steadman (00:35):
Hi, Laura.
Lovely to be here.
Laura (00:37):
I'm very glad to have you here because like many superheroes, you have a
particular origin story in the field ofconflict transformation and mediation.
You weren't bitten by a radioactivespider in this case, but I understand
that from a very young age, you wereconvinced that mediation and dialogue
(00:58):
were essential to conflict transformation.
Felicity Steadman (01:00):
Yes.
Well, I grew up in South Africa.
I was born in 1959 into an a apartheidenvironment in a apartheid state.
And from a very young age, becameaware of the inequalities in the
society in which I was growing up.
I think particularly because my parentswere very much, in antia apart and
(01:24):
sort of liberals and also because.
It was very visible, interms of, separate buses
for different racial groups.
And I remember taking the buses toschool and being conscious of being
on buses for white people and seeingblack people getting on other buses.
And my mother gave me a letter someyears ago that she had written to my
(01:48):
father, in which she talks about, howI said to her, "Why can't the government
just talk to the people about their needsand interests instead of shooting them?
I'm absolutely convinced that the problemswill be resolved more peacefully",
(02:08):
and that was in the late sixties,so it was probably about 10 ish.
And, it was at a timeof protest in the country.
I don't know which protest it was, but,really from a very young age, I was very
conscious of first of all, the inequities,inequalities, inequities, surrounding
us, but also of the importance of talkingto people and trying to resolve things
(02:32):
through talking, through dialogue.
And that really took me on then to whenI was considering my career, to finding
a career where I would be helpfulin society and promoting dialogue.
And I did a, a four year honors degreein social work working in impoverished
communities during those four years,which was a real wake up call for a
(02:56):
young white, south African being inimpoverished communities or townships
as they're called, and schools in thosetownships, and really seeing the impact
of apartheid on children and families.
And the degree of conflictthat the system was causing.
(03:16):
So, I finished my degree and by theend of it, realized or felt that,
really what I would be doing as a socialworker was bandaiding and really just
putting patches on a broken system, anan unequal, unfair, broken system.
And that didn't seem to me to bewhat I really wanted to be doing.
Laura (03:40):
And yet clearly you did end up in the mediation field.
So how did you move from thiscynicism about social work and
its impact to actually becomingpart of the dialogue process?
Felicity Steadman (03:52):
So I immediately moved into the industrial relations
world because that was, in 1981,the one area in South Africa where
liberalization was happening, largelybecause the trade union movement had-
well, it was banned prior to 1981.
But there was so much unrest thatthe labor laws were liberalized
(04:16):
and black workers could startjoining legal trade unions.
And that seemed to me to be an areafor an amazing amount of dialogue,
especially in a society where therewas no possibility for dialogue at
that stage around the political system.
So I got involved in labor relationsand worked in a number of different
(04:39):
organizations, mostly third partytype organizations that were working
with both management and trade unions.
I did work for a shortwhile for a company.
And in all those experiences, I thought 'Ireally like that role at end of the table
or on the one side of the table whereI can help people talk across the table
(05:01):
rather than being on one or other side'.
And so I trained as a mediator in1989 and became involved in the
labor relations world as a mediator.
So that was really how my journey began.
Laura (05:17):
It's an incredible story, definitely.
And so I mean, at that time, was mediationvery common or doing mediation training?
Felicity Steadman (05:25):
Well, in the early eighties when the law was reformed
to legitimize black trade unions,the mechanism for dispute resolution
for all workers was that you had togo to what was called a conciliation
board with a dispute individual orcollective dispute first, and then
after that you went to the labor court,what was called the industrial court.
(05:49):
And those conciliation boards weresupposed to be a mediation opportunity for
mediation and working things out, but theywere very discredited, obviously, because
they were part of the Apartheid government
Laura (06:03):
Of course.
Felicity Steadman (06:04):
Machinery and all of the Conciliators and all the industrial
court judges were all white and 99% men.
And so it was very intimidating forblack workers to come into those forums
and they really didn't believe they werehaving going to have a fair hearing.
So in about 1984, A group of humanrights lawyers and academics and business
(06:31):
people, couple of trade unionists allof like mind got together and said,
"let's try and establish an independentmediation service independent to the
statutory conciliation boards, callit mediation, not conciliation.
Make it a different kind, a slightlydifferent kind of process, and encourage
unions and management to use mediationinstead of industrial action, and
(06:55):
instead of struggling through this reallyvery ineffective statutory process".
And it had support from it hadreally strong support from big
business- and I would say moreliberal business to begin with.
And then it also had strong trade unionsupport and we had fantastic support
(07:17):
from overseas funders, so all themajor European, British and American
funders who were funding anti Apartheidactivities- funded the organization.
It was called the IndependentMediation Service of South Africa,
IMSA, and I joined it in early 1989.
(07:38):
And we worked very closely withthe trade unions, with management,
providing mediation in the case ofindividual disputes and collective
wages and conditions of employmentor retrenchments, redundancies.
And we then, then in late 1989the country was in turmoil,
absolute turmoil politically, andthere was a state of emergency.
(08:02):
Townships were on fire, people were beingkilled by the police and the, and the
army and so we started talking about whatrole we could play in community conflict
and, and considering all our experience inIMSA what could we do to facilitate peace
(08:24):
building or peace making in communities.
And it was quite a difficult conversationbecause quite a few of the stalwarts,
sort of labor relations stalwarts said"no, we can't dilute our energies in the
labor field because that field needs,that whole sector needs to be, or those
(08:46):
relationships need to be stable for anypolitical transition to take place".
But at the end of the day, those whoargued in favor of sharing our experiences
into community dispute resolutionprevailed, and we set up the community
conflict dispute resolution service.
And quite quickly, it was approachedby the National Peace Accord, which
(09:11):
was established in the early ninetiesas a result of a, a dialogue that
was happening between the churchesmainly and business, over what to do
about the conflict in the country andthe political transition and so the
National Peace Accord was established.
They then approached IMSA for facilitatorsand trainers for community dispute
(09:36):
resolution committees, et cetera,and I became involved through IMSA
in the National Peace Accord as well,and that involved working in townships.
And townships are neighborhoodsthat were created by the Apartheid
government, separate from major cities.
(09:56):
On the outskirts of everycity would be a township where
black people were relocated.
And so, so those were really on fire.
And the National Peace Accordwas established to help, at a
very grassroots level, manage theconflict in those communities.
(10:17):
So there was a national peace accord sortof, constitution or agreements drafted and
signed, but at a local and regional level,there were dispute resolution committees
established throughout the country.
Laura (10:33):
And who was actually on those committees?
What role did they playin the whole process?
Felicity Steadman (10:39):
They were a mix.
The committees were a mix of communityrepresentatives, so trade unions, women's
groups, local activists, all sorts ofcommunity representatives as- business
as well- meeting with representativesof the police, the army and any, any
(10:59):
interest groups in that community.
Often townships were closelylinked to particular businesses.
So the businesses that were youknow, employing people from their
community might also be involved.
And we would have regular meetings atthe local dispute resolution committees
to talk about things like a big marchabout to happen, a protest ma march
(11:23):
about to happen, or a big funeral ofsomeone who'd been shot by the police
about the, the funeral about to happenand the conversation in the local
dispute resolution committee was howto make that happen in a peaceful way.
So there would be peace monitors who wouldhave a bib saying 'National Peace Accord',
(11:45):
who would literally be holding hands toseparate the police from the community.
There would be an agreement -ormaybe factions within the community.
For example, ANC C African NationalCongress versus the freedom
Party IFP and separating warringfactions with peace monitors.
(12:05):
They'd agree for example, that the policein the army would stay so many meters
away from the march, so that they wouldn'tbe a threat or incite any response.
And that if there was a need for anypolice intervention or the police
felt they needed to get involved, thenthere would be wireless communication-
(12:26):
walkie-talkie communication-about what would happen, so to
contain the potential for violence.
So I was involved in a couple of thelocal dispute resolution committees
and also quite closely involvedin training of those committees
in how to resolve conflict.
What is conflict?
(12:46):
How to, what skills do you need?
What process skills do you need?
And those were amazing experienceswhere you would have in the same
room, for a weekend workshop, peoplewho were absolutely on the opposite
sides of the political spectrum.
And I remember one particular situationwhere we had this exercise where people
(13:09):
had to, had a set of questions andthey had to find someone in the room
that was unknown to them and had to askthem these questions and then introduce
them to the group using their answers.
And so two men got togetherand one of the questions was,
"tell me about your family".
And the one guy said, "well,very sadly, my son died.
(13:33):
He was shot on the border in Angola,in the conflict between South Africa
and Angola" you know, beyond Namibia.
And the other guy said , "well, myson was, shot in Angola as well".
The one guy's son had been shot bythe South African Defense force and
(13:54):
the other guy's son had been shot byuMkhonto we Sizwe, who were the armed
wing of the African National Congress.
And so these two men in Johannesburg,both had sons who'd been shot by their
constituencies in a foreign land and theythen, you know, just burst into tears.
(14:15):
And then the, some of theother questions were, you know,
what's your favorite sport?
And they both loved rugby be, andwhat's your favorite TV program?
And they both loved some other TV program.
So the potential for common ground was,just, you know, very sad common ground,
but also common ground that people couldbe relaxed about and, and be happy about.
(14:39):
And so those experienceswere absolutely seminal.
Laura (14:43):
Hmm.
And you mentioned earlier thatthe justice and reconciliation
systems were quite racialized.
Were they also gendered?
Felicity Steadman (14:53):
I should just say that as a woman, it was very,
challenging because there weren't verymany women involved in, in this work.
Particularly not at the seniorregional Dispute Resolution
Committee or national levels.
There were women in, in the local disputeresolution committees, the women's
groups, the the church groups, et cetera.
(15:13):
There were definitely women on the groundand they were strong and very important.
But the facilitators and the trainerswere mostly men, and I was just itching
to be more and more and more involved.
But I had two tiny children, oneborn in 1990 and one born in 1987.
(15:34):
And that although my husband was a, youknow, a hundred percent involved father,
110% involved father um, there's thatpull between, you know, being involved
and trying to make a difference, buthaving the responsibilities of a parent
and also not wanting to worry people,you know, because there, I'd be hopping
(15:58):
my car driving off into a, literallya war zone, and and then coming back
to this suburban reality alternativereality, which was rather strange.
Laura (16:10):
It sounds bizarre.
It must have been quite the strange thing.
Felicity Steadman (16:13):
Yeah.
Laura (16:15):
I mean, it's a fascinating story and I'd like to just circle
back for a minute if you don't mind,because when you mentioned doing
mediation with the trade unions and thebusinesses, right, and you highlighted
that previously, the conciliationboards in place, they were all white.
They were structures of apartheid.
I mean, how were you able to buildtrust in this mediation service?
(16:39):
Cause obviously you were there andyou were white, and how is it that you
managed to get them to trust you in theface of this idea of, well, the white
people are here and they're gonna actuallybe causing problems in this situation.
How did you build that trust?
Felicity Steadman (16:53):
Yes, well, many of the people are slightly older than, that
were involved in the establishment of theorganization had been politically active
in the student movement in the seventies.
And a number of them had beenbanned as, as it was called in South
Africa, under house arrest and thatsort of thing for activities that
(17:14):
the state regarded as subversive.
So they.
Credibility because of their veryreal actions and experiences.
And then also I had, I hadgot involved when was it?
Yes, as a student, and then justafter graduating, I'd become involved
in various other activities likean organization called the the
(17:37):
workers aid project, which wasa, there were lots of these NGOs,
little NGOs trying to do things.
And this was a workers education project.
And it was a little project that wasopen most hours to provide advice,
a bit like a Citizen's Advice Bureaufor workers on their rights, you know,
(18:00):
unclaimed wages that were being denied orunfair dismissal, all that sort of thing.
And some of the people associatedwith that organization were
people who'd been in detention.
In fact, one particular person, Neil Agar,was murdered by the a Apartheid Police.
In the, the notorious John ForsterSquare, as it was called, arrested
(18:21):
and, and died in detention.
So, all those associationsbuild credibility, you know, so.
I've always said about credibilityand neutrality as a mediator, you
can't just switch it on and switchit off and say, "I am neutral.
I am impartial".
You have to walk the talkin everything you do.
And so it comes down to being involvedin things that demonstrate that you
(18:45):
you care and that you are genuine abouthelping people have good conversations,
but also achieve their human rights.
And and then also really downto the little things, like how
you greet people, how you howyou show respect in the moment.
And so there's a particular way of shakinghands with black people in South Africa.
(19:08):
I wouldn't presume to do it automatically,but if you are about to shake someone's
hand and you get the feel that they'regoing to do the handshake then,
you know, be able to do it easily.
I learned Zulu so I could speak verybasic Zulu to people I was working with.
And so a lot of it is just reallydown to how you treat people
and how you work with people.
(19:29):
And I do remember a colleague saying tome- because I I left IMSA after a couple
of years when I had my second child, orafter having my second child in order to
work actually more closely on a, anothercommunity dispute resolution project.
And she said, "oh, it'ssuch a pity you're going.
It's amazing how quickly you'vebuilt up credibility with the trade
(19:50):
unions", because it was a veryprecious commodity that you had to
work carefully on and, and retain.
I mean, I would have a naturalcredibility with management
who were white at that point,
Laura (20:06):
Mm.
Felicity Steadman (20:06):
but not with black trade unionists
who were predominantly men.
But that just changed with, yeah,I suppose the way I worked and,
and, and I enjoyed it, you know.
And the organization overall had goodcredibility for treating people fairly,
and we also, arbitrated and I, soI was also an arbitrator, and so the
(20:28):
decisions coming out of arbitrationand the outcomes of mediation were
regarded as even handed and fair.
And so that builds credibility, you know,the outcomes leave people with a sense
that, 'yeah, I got a good outcome' or 'ifI didn't get what I want, I can understand
why', and that builds credibility.
Laura (20:52):
Incredible.
I mean, it's a really inspirationalstory you've presented, honestly, and
something that really strikes me isthat, earlier when you were talking
about this letter with your mother,you were described as 'sensible'.
And yet, you know, most people's ideaof being sensible doesn't involve
driving into war zones or trying tosolve, you know, solve the problem
of peace in South Africa, right?
(21:13):
So it's really incredible and speaksto your character that part of 'being
sensible' is this dedication tojustice is bringing people together.
So huge kudos for that to say the least.
Felicity Steadman (21:24):
Well, I should also just say that, you know, it was- from
my point of view and my colleaguesand friends- it wasn't difficult.
It was an unambiguouslyobvious position to take.
And so, and it felt as though we wereall on the moral high ground, you know,
being anti Apartheid And my contributionwas tiny compared to many, many people.
(21:47):
I mean, really, people lost their lives.
People were in exile, peoplewere in prison you know, for
many, many years as we know.
And ah but I had my fair share ofvisits from the security police
and all those sorts of scary things.
And that was the place we lived in,which was really pretty ghastly.
Laura (22:07):
I'm getting a lot of chills here, Felicity, so
thank you so much for sharing.
And so after this period,then, cuz you left IMSA.
I mean, I understand that yourmediation journey took you
into different fields of work.
Was that then, or was that later on?
Felicity Steadman (22:20):
Well it started out in labor management work and then through
the peace accord more into peace makingat a sort of more community level
between factions within communities.
But at the same time, I got involvedin the more typical community dispute
resolution within a community.
And so that was in a in a townshipcalled Alexandra Township where
(22:44):
we had a project going called aCommunity Dispute Resolution Trust.
And it was based very much on modelthe sort of North American model of
community dispute resolution centerswhere you'd set up a center, train
local mediators you know, it would be acommunity resource, and disputes within
(23:05):
the community would be brought to thecenter to be resolved by local mediators.
And the reason for this was that lawand order had really broken down so
fundamentally that, and, and peopledidn't trust, the police, didn't trust
taking a matter to a police station, thatkangaroo courts, as they were called,
were rife in that community in particular.
(23:27):
So people, and people wouldbe, disciplined by the
community in very brutal ways.
You know, beatings and you've heardof necklacing, you know, pulling
a tire over someone, settingthem alight, that sort of thing.
And so the community dispute resolutionor a community dispute resolution trust,
the idea there was to establish- tobuild capacity within a community to
(23:51):
resolve conflicts over neighborhoodissues, barking dogs and noisy neighbors.
And so I got involved in that, and thatwas after spending a six month period
in America, in Harrisonburg in Virginia,where they had a local community dispute
resolution service that I volunteered at.
And just seeing the power of mediating-between neighbors, between businesses,
(24:17):
in a little community, a tiny community.
And I remember doing facilitating amatter between the volunteer firefighters
in Harrisonburg and and, you know,here are these volunteers giving their
time to the local community but theyare all in conflict with each other,
and so using mediation skills to justhelp at that very, very local level.
(24:41):
So I did that.
So that took me into sort of anotheraspect of community mediation, and
then when I came to the UK in 2003,I discovered that actually the
dispute resolution service here,ACAS, does a good job with labor
related employment related disputes.
And that unless I was gonna work foracas, there wasn't any possibility
(25:03):
of freelance work of that kind, andthat's really what I wanted to do.
So I found out about CEDR the Centerfor Effective Dispute Resolution, and
I did their course and that took meinto commercial mediation and then
more recently into workplace mediation,because in the UK, things have sort
(25:24):
of come full circle for me, certainly,where there wasn't much opportunity
for employment and workplace mediationbecause acas was doing a good job.
But actually workplace mediationhas developed very strongly because
employers are realizing that theyshouldn't be waiting until they get
(25:46):
an ACAS claim, they need to dealwith things much, much earlier.
And the guidelines from acasencourage early resolution anyway-
informal as opposed to formal.
So I've kind of come full circle where Inow do a lot of employment and workplace.
And I am constantly thinking back to myearlier years in industrial relations
(26:07):
and drawing on that experience.
But then I also do commercialmediation and disputes referred
by the court of appeal, forexample, or other basic commercial
contract, often contractual matters.
Yeah, so I've never venturedinto family mediation.
I had one, one.
Laura (26:28):
One left for the checklist.
Felicity Steadman (26:30):
No, no.
I had one, one horrible experience orscary experience where the, I was asked to
mediate- this was a long time ago- betweena husband and wife over just assets.
So it wasn't sort of familymediation, it was really just assets.
And it came down to the dog and thedresser, the kitchen dresser, and I just.
It was so emotional and so out of control.
(26:54):
And I, I think I was not mature enoughand not skilled enough to know how
to deal with that level of emotion,that I was so frightened off it.
So I've never done that kind of mediation.
Laura (27:07):
I mean, I think it's understandable.
I once had a mediator to tellme a very similar story, but it
wasn't over a kitchen dresser.
It was over a toilet brush.
Felicity Steadman (27:17):
Oh gosh.
Laura (27:17):
Yeah.
And so this entire emotional divorcestarted to really hinge on this,
the toilet brush and who owns it.
And I, I have no idea what the restof the story was, but it, you know,
it was obviously highly emotional.
Wasn't really about the toiletbrush, but it's amazing how these
objects, gain a their own right.
Felicity Steadman (27:35):
Yes, we did manage to reach agreement on
visitation rights about the dog, but
Laura (27:40):
The m I could say the dresser.
I mean, it's important tovisit one's kitchen dresser.
Felicity Steadman (27:44):
yes.
Laura (27:46):
Oh my goodness.
And so given you've worked in these verydifferent fields, I mean, it it's quite
unusual because you'll often see peoplewho started in that sort of commercial
area of mediation, and they'll, they'lldo that for a few years and then they'll
go, oh, why didn't we use this in thesocial context, in the community context?
So all the community mediais like, here we exist.
(28:07):
And so you've seen really thefull spectrum and you've
gone the other way around.
So do you see any fundamentalsimilarities or differences between
these different types of mediationor these different contexts of
mediation or perhaps the skillsrequired in these different mediations?
Felicity Steadman (28:23):
Yeah, and a lot of the differences really around process.
I think with commercial mediation,it's very often a one day event with
some work up front in the preparationand party contact, and then it's
a, a day or maybe a two days, butit's quite contained, and it's quite
(28:47):
dispute focused and it comes to an end.
And the end is the conclusion'swritten down and there's an agreement.
However, in certainly communityor political type conflicts,
it's much more drawn out.
You have to think much morecarefully about process design.
You have to think much more carefullyabout who needs to be at the table.
(29:10):
And so there's a lot of work upfrontwith stakeholders to help them
set the table up appropriately andbring the right people to the table.
Ensure that those people havemandates and that they have
authority from their constituencies.
And then the actual processcan be very drawn out.
(29:34):
And then the, the follow up and the,well, the potential for deadlock
is greater because it's oftennot focused on a single dispute.
It's, it's about relationships and,you know, community engagement.
And so it's a much more, I'd call itmore facilitation really than mediation.
(29:55):
And then in, in terms ofworkplace mediation, there
again, it's not a one day wonder.
It's a staged process because it involvesthe employer telling the employees
to go and sort their problem out.
And we know that mediation worksbetter where people voluntarily come.
(30:15):
So you have to turn itfrom being told to go.
To, oh, yes, I do want to go.
And so that early engagementis really critical.
So I would speak to the party on thephone or in a Zoom call, then meet them
individually to hear what has happened,to build rapport, to build a solid
(30:37):
understanding of the mediation processand what to expect and how to prepare.
And then we would have the mediation day,which might actually be two half days.
And then some follow up sometime later.
And of course in workplace mediation,you're accountable to the person
who appointed you to the employer,or you are accountable to both.
(31:00):
You're accountable to the people in themediation, but also to the employer.
So being really, really clearabout their expectations.
Confidentiality of the processand what you may or may not
be able to achieve or convey.
And being clear that it'snot an investigation, there
won't be a report or finding.
So, whereas in commercial mediationespecially where they're lawyers,
(31:22):
they know what mediation is, they knowwhat the parameters are, they come in.
You're really helping them sort it out.
Workplace mediation, you are helpingthem sort it out, but you're also
educating so much about and modelingeffective communication skills and
processes and helping them reallytry and do it better next time around.
Laura (31:47):
Mm, incredible.
Felicity Steadman (31:49):
Yeah, so yeah, process is very, is different.
Very different.
And so I don't think you canjust hop from one to the other.
You need training in the, so youcan do a basic mediation skills
course for commercial mediation,you know general mediation.
But then if you're gonna be a workplacemediator, you need specialist training.
If you're going to be a peacemaker,you need specialist training.
(32:12):
They, it's different.
You can't be a mediatorfor every situation.
But the principles aroundconfidentiality, with our prejudice,
neutrality, impartiality, allof those are basically the same.
And and all the, all the relationshipskills will be very similar in terms
(32:33):
of building trust, rapport- building,decent communication skills, ethics.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Laura (32:41):
Brilliant.
Thank you for that insight.
And I'm really glad you said wecan't just jump from one to another
because I think sometimes that'sa trap we can maybe fall into.
But moving on to something else, I'dreally like to know something that has
surprised you as a practicing mediator.
You know something you expected towork but didn't or perhaps the reverse?
Felicity Steadman (33:02):
I think the thing that always surprises me is how,
no matter how much self-awarenessI might think I have or how much
bias training I have done and do.
I'm always surprised at how quicklyI'm drawn to one or the other side.
(33:23):
It usually evens out quite quicklybecause you know, I'll listen to
the first party and I think, wow,that just sounds so reasonable.
And what could theother side possibly say?
And then I hear the other sideand think, oh, this is just as
reasonable, if not more reasonable.
And so it just affirms for meall the time, the work you have
(33:44):
to do as a mediator to step backand maintain your impartiality.
And it's not just in what yousay, it's in how you look.
I had a mediation recently where thelawyer for the one party, barrister for
the one party said " I can see Felicityof you you don't agree with that?"
(34:06):
And I said, "but why Ihaven't said anything?"
And he said, "well, you're frowning".
And I said, "well, Ido have frown lines."
I struggle to, I needsome Botox or something
Laura (34:17):
Oh my goodness.
Felicity Steadman (34:20):
But I, you know, he caught me in that moment and I,
it's not that I was being critical,I was just wondering how what his
client was saying was going tosit with the the people next door.
And I mean actually I did findtheir position rather difficult.
And clearly I was givingsome of that away.
(34:40):
And so that's whatsurprises me all the time.
And I think the other thing that surprisesme, You know, you never really know
what people's bottom lines really areand where they will go to in a mediation.
So just when I think this is not gonnawork there's move movement and so it
(35:05):
may be a shifting mandate or authority.
It may be some goodreality testing I've done.
And they've gone away andthey've thought, 'wow, we
hadn't thought about that'.
Maybe it's something in the processthat has influenced it, like bringing
the lawyers together to do a bitof knocking heads over the merits.
But you kind of have to expect theunexpected and you just can't give up.
(35:27):
You know, and, and just keep pushing.
Not pushing, but keep encouraging people
Laura (35:32):
Keep facilitating the experience.
Felicity Steadman (35:34):
Yes.
. Exactly.
Yeah.
Laura (35:39):
And so if you were starting out again today, what
advice would you give yourself?
Felicity Steadman (35:45):
This is gonna sound really weird.
I, I think I would do a law degree because
Laura (35:51):
That does sound weird.
Felicity Steadman (35:52):
Yeah, I think I, I, I think, the social work degree was
incredibly valuable from the point ofview of opening my eyes to the world of
inequality really, and poverty, et cetera.
I would then go on and do a law degreebecause actually in the real world,
(36:12):
out there the drivers of power inorganizations are very often lawyers.
And the way they think isreally important to understand.
And so my work as an arbitrator was,has always stood me in incredibly good
(36:32):
stead, to be able to talk to peopleabout their alternative in rights.
So to say, "well, take methrough the merits here.
How will it be giving evidence?
Have you been cross-examined before?
Tell me about your risk assessment,your chances of success before
a judge or before a jury".
Understanding trial process and justbeing able to speak that language.
(36:55):
I wouldn't practice as a lawyer, butjust understanding that I think would
give me the confidence, the credibilitythat unfortunately, is helpful.
For the non-lawyers, it'sreally, really difficult.
I think very often people think I'm alawyer and I mean, if they say, "well,
as, as you would know as a lawyer",of course I disabuse them of it.
(37:19):
But they, when they're choosingmediators, whether you are a lawyer
or not a lawyer is a huge factor,and in such a competitive market
that's something that would help.
If I was, if I was, you know,to dedicate my life to, to
peacemaking or family mediation,then I wouldn't think about it.
But if you want to be involved inmainstream commercial mediation or even
(37:43):
labor management mediation, I mean, I havelabor management legal qualifications.
I've done a higher diploma in labor lawand that sort of thing in a law school.
And that was really helpful.
But to develop an internationalcommercial mediation practice, you'll
be chosen more quickly as a lawyer.
(38:05):
That's a sad, the longand the short sad fact.
Laura (38:08):
Yeah.
Okay.
I've never aspired to be a commercialmediator anyway, so we're good.
We're good.
Felicity Steadman (38:15):
Yes.
Laura (38:17):
Super.
So then as a final question, what issomething that inspires you in your work?
Felicity Steadman (38:24):
What inspires me?
I, I think I really fundamentally believethat if you can get people to talk,
you can achieve a huge amount or youcan help them achieve a huge amount.
My husband often says to me, "why dowe have to sit down and talk about it?"
So I said," well, you do need to do that.
You, you you do need to actuallyhave a process, sit down and
(38:50):
have a way of talking about it."
Be it something happening athome or something happening
more formally between parties.
You need a safe space witha framework of an agreement.
Some rules, some ways of workingwith things, ways of talking.
And so what inspires me is that if youcan just get people to take that leap
(39:13):
of faith into that process, into thatspace you can achieve a huge amount.
And so often people go from I'min conflict with the other person
to, and I'm going to get them,I'm going to find a way to to, to,
Laura (39:32):
Punish them to get them back or to destroy them even.
Felicity Steadman (39:35):
Or, or, or get someone to decide that I'm right.
And so, and on that journey between theconflict and the punishment, the use of
power or the use of a right based approachlike arbitration or litigation, there's
a whole lot of things that you can do.
And so I feel inspired by encouragingpeople to do that -or when they're
(39:59):
in the bad place already down thetrack with power litigation, Ukraine,
for example, and Russia, you canalways come back to the table.
You can always, so helping people youknow, find their way back to the table.
You don't have to give up on the poweror give up on the litigation to talk.
Um, A of it is about saving face,and helping people sort of just
(40:23):
step to the side of the process orthe conflict and just see if they
can work it out in a different way.
So I find that inspiring.
I've just seen it work again andagain, especially coming from South
Africa where we are very consensusoriented, although it's still a very
conflictual society for other reasons.
Not so much to do with politics as to dowith crime and the economy, et cetera.
(40:47):
And so I, I've seen it work.
Laura (40:51):
Well Felicity, thank you so much for joining me today.
And for those interested inlearning more about you or your
work, where can they find you?
Felicity Steadman (40:59):
On my website, a Felicity Steadman co UK.
Laura (41:03):
Fabulous.
All right.
Well, until next time for everybodyelse, this is Laura May with the Conflict
Tipping podcast from Mediate.com Dot.
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