December 20, 2022 • 31 mins
In this episode Laura interviews Laura Aumeer, Director of the Europe-Asia Department of Conciliation Resources, overseeing work in the South Caucasus and South Asia regions, as well as cross-regional peacebuilding work.
Laura brings expertise on adaptive peacebuilding management and led our work with the Smart Peace consortium, an innovative consortium integrating research and implementation to address complex conflict problems. She also worked closely with the Women Mediators across the Commonwealth Team, providing secretariat support to the network.
Before Laura joined Conciliation Resources, she set up and managed violence reduction programmes with a focus on learning and innovation, for an international development consultancy, where she managed teams in Nigeria, South Sudan and Malawi. She previously worked in DFID, to support adaptive programming and learning.
Before this, she worked in and with grassroots UK-based charities to advocate for an inclusive approach to tackling gender-based violence, and to increase support for women's organisations. She holds an MSc from LSE in politics and democracy, for which she conducted research with women's organisations and wider civil society organisations in Thailand and Egypt on the changing nature of civil society-state relations.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura May (00:10):
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping Podcast for mediate.com,
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and today Ihave with me another Laura, Laura Oea,
who is director of the Europe AsiaDepartment at Conciliation Resources.
She has particular expertise in peacebuilding management and gender, and
(00:32):
has worked in countries all over theworld with a view to resolving conflict.
Welcome other Laura
Laura Aumeer (00:39):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Laura May (00:41):
Of course.
It's wonderful to have you here,and I wanna dive straight in and
ask you what led to your currentrole at Conciliation Resources.
Laura Aumeer (00:52):
Well, so my background is a bit varied.
So academically I focused onpopular politics and governance.
So was trying to understand what madecivil society movement successful.
And then from that started tolook at the role and impact of
international influencers on civilsociety which led me to looking at
the role of international funding.
(01:12):
And so I moved from academic.
Um, Aside from that into working brieflywith the UK Department for International
Development and then in a developmentconsultancy where I spent a fair bit
of time supporting projects in Kenya,Nigeria, Malawi, and South Sudan.
And they were all quitedifferent projects.
But my work focused on adaptiveprogramming, embedding learning
(01:34):
through long-term projects.
And whilst the focus of these projectswas all slightly different there's a very
strong element around violence reduction.
And so from there I then joinedConciliation Resources where initially I
directed a Smart Peace program, which wasan adaptive peace building program that
used innovative collaborations to createlessons on how to best support peace
building in Nigeria, c a r and Myanmar.
(01:56):
And perhaps I should say for those whomight not know that conciliation resources
it's an international peace buildingorganization, so we work with partners
around the world to bring people togetherto find creative and sustainable paths.
And so from that, I'm nowUIA department director.
I o oversee our work in our SouthAsia program, our south caucuses
program, and also some of our thematiccross-regional work on women peace
(02:19):
and security and also climate change.
So I work with some of our incredibleexpert program teams, helping them
set up new projects, ensuring we'relearning from our current peace
building work and working with them tomake sure they've got the support and
resources they need in their work as.
Laura May (02:34):
And so this might be a silly question, but you've mentioned adaptive
programming, adaptive peace building.
What actually is that?
Laura Aumeer (02:42):
It's not a silly question at all.
So often with projects and particularlywhen there is funding for projects and.
It stems from kind of projects in thekind of humanitarian space much more.
There's often really perceived to be akind of very linear approach that you
put money in, you do some activities, youachieve a result, and that helps you get
to where you are you are wanting to go.
(03:04):
And with peace building.
And also in other wide sectorslike governance support as
well, it's much more complex.
There's numerous factorsin in the outside world.
So what you'll find is you'll dosome activities and actually maybe
something's changed in the contextor something happened that you
didn't necessarily expect , and sothere's not a kind of linear path
(03:25):
that takes you from A to B to C.
You're going from A to Bto D, back to C and having
Laura May (03:32):
Oh, is that in there somewhere?
Laura Aumeer (03:34):
having to kind of all go around.
With adaptive programming,it's trying to recognize that.
And so in our peace building approach,we know that it's not so straightforward
that we can't just expect that if we do.
This, this will happen andthis will lead to this.
It's around saying, actually we needto look at this in the long term.
(03:54):
We need to be not just reporting againstsomething that we thought would happen
when we started this, but actuallylooking at what has happened , and
recording some of the things that wereunintended and some of the external
impacts, as well as just things wedidn't expect our work to necessarily.
and then go back and understand that tohelp us get to where we want to get to.
(04:14):
So it's really about just emembedding the complexity into our
work, but having tools and processes,and ways to try and do that.
Laura May (04:22):
I mean, when you say it like that, it sounds really obvious, right?
Because it's not like, to get from waterpiece, just add water . It's like, oh no.
There's actually a lot of complex dynamicsat play here that we need to adapt to.
So thank you.
That makes a lot more sense to me now.
. And if I can ask, what actually drew youto this kind of work in the first place?
Laura Aumeer (04:42):
I think for me it's two things.
There's one is I am the kind of personthat is very interested around the kind
of how and the why and getting intosomething and the complexity there.
And so for me, you know, one of thethings I really enjoy in my role at
the moment and being able to work withsuch different teams is being able to
kind of work with them and dive intothe, what, what has happened here or
(05:05):
what has happened as a result of ourwork and what might we need to do?
And I enjoy that complexity.
But beyond it being just a.
A kind of intellectual interest.
The work that we do in in peacebuilding with civil society is I,
there is something around working withindividuals, communities, activists
(05:26):
who are often those that are mostaffected by the conflicts who are showing
incredible strength in what they do.
And it's incredibly inspiring towork with the partners we work with.
They're leading the work and for me,that's a really exciting role to be
able to see how we can support that.
And that's one of the things that Iguess in looking at the kind of work
I do and and my colleagues do, is Ithink often what drives us is how can
(05:49):
we continue to do that, continue tosupport them in, in very challenging.
Laura May (05:54):
Hmm.
Now it's great I think to be ableto see that impact of the work you do
on a daily basis, which can be quiterare in NGO and non-profit work, right.
Is that you do all these fabulousstuff and then you don't really
see how it affects people's liveson the ground, but it sounds
like you actually get to do that.
Laura Aumeer (06:11):
Well, I think still on a day-to-day basis, it's incredibly
hard, partly because everyone'salso so busy most of the time,
and you're often just stuck in theimmediate of, what do I need to get
through today, this week, this month?
And a lot of my colleagues as wellwill talk about the stresses when
you've got your day-to-day reportingand all these different demands on you.
I found that we, in conciliationresources, we use an approach called
(06:33):
outcome hosting, which again, leads intothat very linked to that adaptive peace
building approach I talked about earlier.
And it's for us as a way of how do welook at what's happened as a result of
our work and how does that fit and withthe aims that we are trying to get to?
In each piece of work, we'll try and doannually a kind of in-depth session where
we dive into that with our partners.
(06:55):
And those are some of the timeswhere you can really take a step
back and saying, oh, we, we, we aredoing something that is helping to
get to where we want to get to.
And we try and do this in differentways along the year as well.
It's quite easy to kind of forgetabout some of that or in, in the day-to
day for it to kind of slip past you.
And I think my way of trying to stayoptimistic about our work or infused
(07:16):
about it and it is trying to make surewe all remember that and have the space
to think about it and and do that work.
Cuz often we are working in context whicharen't getting better on a regular basis.
And in fact, you know, maybe with the.
Years or so have got worse in some regardsand trying to keep that space for our
partners going is often very challenging.
Laura May (07:37):
And so do I understand correctly that Conciliation resources
mostly works with civil societyand level two and three actors?
Laura Aumeer (07:45):
We work with um, In a mixture.
So our work works up all levels.
We find it helpful not to reallythink of it as distinct levels.
So we have worked to support peaceagreements to support mediators
working at track one level.
But I think what's reallyimportant in that work is.
Identifying the linkages as wellbetween the different spaces.
(08:07):
That it's not just kind of nationaland international processes that
happen in one place, and then civilsociety work is entirely separate.
At CR a lot of our work is aroundinclusive peace processes and
inclusion in its wider sense.
So it's not just about gender, it'swhich groups are involved whose
voices are being heard more widely.
Laura May (08:27):
Which is obviously so important.
I mean, I rememberreading Nicholas Christos?
Half the Sky?
And that particular factoid hasalways stuck in my head that during
World War I, in the US more womendied in childbirth and related
issues than men died in combat.
And yet we hear about one ofthese audiences and not the other.
(08:49):
And I think sort of that fact to it andthe impacts on wider civil society is
something we don't necessarily thinkabout so much beyond the headlines of
refugees fleeing country A, B, C as partof actually the problem of conflict.
Right.
So it's fantastic to see how yousupport these civil society initiatives
as well, so that doesn't get lost.
Laura Aumeer (09:09):
And I think it's, that's a really interesting fact, and I
think it's also really important.
That it's, as you said, we'renot just thinking about you
know, images of refugees seeinggroups as helpless groups.
You can talk about women intheir role in armed groups.
It's much more complex than the media isoften able to portray and does portray.
(09:30):
The media's often trying to,you know, simplify something
for a wider diverse audience.
But I think our job often is to makesure we recognize the complexity that
the work that is happening, whetherthat's to support actual negotiations
or processes or civil society in thatrecognizes that complexity as well.
Laura May (09:49):
Hmm.
And so because we're on the topic ofinclusion and also supporting peace
processes, I've seen that you're actuallyinvolved in building up women mediators.
So why is that, and is there a particularrole for women mediators in conflict?
Laura Aumeer (10:05):
So at the moment I see our work as part of the UN's rapid
response window which is a mechanismto address funding gaps for women's
participation and peace processes.
And Over the last few years atReconciliation Resources, we've been
really privileged to work with the womenmediators across the Commonwealth Network,
which is a network of just under 50 expertmediators from across the Commonwealth.
(10:25):
So globally
Laura May (10:26):
there in the name
Laura Aumeer (10:27):
it's a, it's a, yes, fairly descriptive name, but we
in that work and the reason forCR doing some of that work and.
We, we know statistically that ifpeace processes are more inclusive,
they're more likely to be sustainable.
We are talking years after UN SecurityCouncil resolution 1325, which recognized
gendered impact of conflict and the needto ensure inclusion in resolving conflict.
(10:52):
But we're still here in the very endof 2022 and not always recognizing
women's role in peace building.
It's under-recognized,it's undersupported.
I think when we we're lookingat this and, you know, say why,
what's the role for women mediatorsis the first thing I would say.
And I often say when talking aboutwomen's role in peace building is
(11:14):
women are peacebuilders already womenare leading peace building processes.
What is often ignored is.
Because so much of the talk aroundmediation focuses on track one
mediations and these high profile,international and national mediations
that we forget the work that'shappening at community society,
(11:35):
local level and women are leading.
Much of that work.
They're not supported, then theirprotection needs aren't met.
The civil society space is shrinking ina number of places and there's increased
pressure on women for doing that.
And also it's not being linked upto some of these wider processes
at kind of national or regionallevel when there's actually, we'd
be an immense value in doing so.
(11:58):
And then when it comes to thesehigh profile political processes,
we'll see the rooms dominatedby men without women in them.
And I think it's quite easy that wecan kind of forget the reason why.
And it's why I'm really glad you'veasked the ask the question cause it's
not just about having women in the room.
It's not just so that they can representwomen or but it's around actually
making sure that diverse groups arepart of different processes that their
(12:23):
needs are listened to within thoseprocesses, are shaping those processes.
And ultimately I think when we talkabout including women and including
diverse groups of women and diversegroups, what we're talking about
is trying to transform the process.
So it's not about just getting women atthe table, it's taking the table away.
It's transforming it.
And
Laura May (12:43):
Putting the table on fire,
Laura Aumeer (12:45):
yeah, indeed.
I think that's what we need to do.
And I think that's what's really importantthat it, we don't just think, oh, we
now need to make sure there's, you know,X number of women involved in this,
but actually why are we doing this andhow does this whole process need to.
Laura May (13:00):
And I do remember seeing as well the data you refer to where it
shows that, yeah, where women actuallyare involved in the peace process.
They tend to last, I think it waslike, average five or 10 years longer.
As as, sorry.
Another piece processes the outcomes ofthe peace processes, which is promising.
Laura Aumeer (13:17):
And I think that when you dig into it and you ask yourselves
why, it's not just because of Genderand, and having women involved.
But it's because it's a symptom ofthose processes being more inclusive
and recognizing wider needs.
And that's incredibly importantthat a peace process isn't
going to work if it's forgotten.
Half the people that are gonna beaffected by conflict and that they
(13:38):
may be affected in different ways, justsounds blindingly obvious, but here we
are still not doing this all the time.
Laura May (13:46):
Oh my goodness.
I mean, you'd think it'll be blatantlyobvious, but I had a quite an
interesting discussion with someone ona project I was working with the other
day . And they said, no, no, we don't.
We don't need to have women at thisdialogue because gender equality
has already been achieved in ourcountry, and so we can talk for them.
And my head just exploded.
I'm like, oh yeah, you know, genderequality's been achieved, so therefore we
(14:09):
don't need women to talk for themselves.
That were just, anyway, the sheerdouble thing was insane to me.
Laura Aumeer (14:14):
That's, yeah, that's, no, it's shocking and well, is it shocking?
That's the sad thing.
But I, and I think it's reallyimportant, you know, which women are
involved as well is really important.
As I said, we're not, it's not herejust about inclusion around numbers.
It's really around inclusivityand transforming processes.
So, Yeah, it's particularly important.
(14:36):
We make sure that these faces areinclusive and I mentioned the mediators
across the Commonwealth Network andone of the really inspiring things
around that network is it was a groupof um, when mediators who it was
diverse in that the cross, you know,globally, very different contexts and
regions working in different spaces.
(14:58):
And they were in the networksupporting each other, finding
ways to learn and help each otherup and when needed to as well.
So much the benefit was saying, well,it's not just, you know, for women in
truck one processes or women in, in thesedifferent processes, but what can we learn
from each other and, and making sure that,you know, if people were being invited to
speak on, on global platforms, who was it?
(15:19):
How do we make sure this ismore representative as well?
Laura May (15:22):
Fantastic.
Okay.
Well, one of the other things Iwanted to discuss with you today
was the interrelationship betweenconflict and climate change.
For for a long time now, we've hadthis idea of water wars or food
wars or whatever, which, is alwaysenvisages some use in the future,
but I understand that climate changeis already causing some conflicts
(15:44):
and then maybe some conflicts areexacerbating climate change in some way.
And so I'm just wondering about someof these less visible social conflicts
which might not be on the radar.
I mean, I understand you'vedone some work in, I think in
Fiji and West Africa on this.
Laura Aumeer (16:00):
So one of the projects I'm working on at conciliation resource
at the moment is we've, you know, theenvironment's been a factor in many of
the places we work for a number of years.
We've worked with differentgroups on environmental
management in different ways.
But we are increasingly we want toincreasingly recognize that climate change
is changing the environment where we work.
(16:22):
And that's adding another factor in.
And in some context that's incrediblyexplicit already and in others,
we know that the environment ischanging and it will continue to
change and shape conflict dynamics.
And it's important.
We don't ignore that.
So we are trying to bring togetherour learning from different programs,
from very different contexts.
So very different countries and areaswhere we have long-term work with partners
(16:44):
on peace building and helping them.
And help us as well look at the impactof climate change, how we can address
that intersection and what that means.
So you mentioned our work in Fiji andthat's some of the kind of longest
going work which is specificallyaround this intersection between
climate change and peace building.
You mentioned the kind ofwaters, the natural resources.
(17:05):
Again, and, you know, not to sound likea broken record about about complexity,
but again, this is an area where we needto kind of recognize the complexity.
We we'll refer to climate change,exacerbating conflict drivers.
In the areas where we're working.
What we're seeing is not climatechange directly leading to conflict,
but exacerbating drivers that alreadyexist or changing how they interact.
(17:28):
And that is therefore reallyimportant to understand how to resolve
conflict and how to prevent conflict.
So when we're looking at this atthe moment, we're currently um,
identified three broad areas whereclimate change is changing these
different areas, so we're talkingabout governance around livelihoods and
around traditional norms and cultures.
(17:48):
And climate change is pittingpressure on these different areas, in
different ways, in different places.
All of that can therefore then exacerbatethe conflict drivers in those areas.
So it can put pressureon governance systems.
You can therefore see increased imbalancesin power, particularly look looking at
what that means around gender and age.
And if we don't look at that withinthe work around kind of climate
(18:11):
change and conflict, we wepotentially miss a big part of the
puzzle and what we are trying to do.
And I think it's really important.
Within that we work with differentgroups with governments as well
as, as well as with communitiesto understand what this impact is.
Not just now, but in the long term.
Cause this will continue, climate changewill continue to have these effects.
(18:31):
And how to support communities associeties, governments to better
resolve this and address thisand build this into their work.
So.
I know it, it might helpif I give a, an example,
Laura May (18:43):
I would love some examples.
, I feel like I wanna set an exam question.
You know, can you gimme a concreteexample for each of these areas
that intersect with climate change?
Laura Aumeer (18:52):
So one example.
So colleagues of mine working in theKaramoja region um, they're working in
the border areas of Uganda for this work.
And they've been exploringwith partners the links between
climate change and cattle ratingas a driver of violent conflict.
And one aspect is that climatechange is impacting livelihoods.
It's putting additionalpressure on the ability to meet
(19:14):
cultural gendered expectations.
And that's in part driving more cattlerating because that becomes a way for
men to meet those gendered expectationsof what they should be doing as a man.
And without that bit ofunderstanding within that to
kind of otherwise think of it.
Simplistically around youknow, resources available.
(19:36):
we miss a big part of the pictureto be able to address that and to
find ways to resolve those issues.
Laura May (19:42):
But just to take a step back though, so the gendered expectation is
that that men will have a lot of cattle,or is it specifically about cattle rating?
I mean, what actually isthe expectation there?
Laura Aumeer (19:52):
So um, around the expectations around being a provider.
Laura May (19:56):
Mm-hmm.
Laura Aumeer (19:57):
And that their ability to then provide, and then how cattle rating
is seen as part of that, as a way to meetthat when it's harder for them to provide.
Laura May (20:07):
Okay, great.
Thank you.
Thanks for the clarification
Laura Aumeer (20:10):
no, and, and again, it's, it's the kind of looking into
this and again, seeing how does genderand climate change and conflict um,
interact and how can we address this?
And maybe another example, in Fiji,and this is again where not to just
add another complication onto this,but it's not just climate change
exacerbating conflict, but actuallythe responses to climate change can, as
(20:30):
well the responses that may be tryingto address impacts of climate change.
If they don't think about how those meansof addressing climate change are affecting
different groups of people or how they'reinvolving those most affected, again,
they risk increasing power imbalancesin exacerbating climate drivers.
And so in our work in in Fiji Workingwith a partner transcend Oceana to support
(20:53):
more inclusive spaces for dialogue.
So they're using traditional dialoguemethods to make sure that consultations
and decision making, particularly aroundissues around community relocation um,
make sure that they're more inclusiveand therefore to help communities local
governance respond better to climatechange, but in a way that recogniz
(21:16):
existing conflict drivers, but also howthese have been changed by climate change.
Andt, one of the worries that theyhave seen as they've been doing
this work is that there's a lotof organizations and initiatives
to try and address climate change.
And they know they need to consult thecommunity, but if they don't actually
know where they're working really.
They really do have the potential to doharm if they're not conflict sensitive.
(21:38):
And I think ensuring that kind ofconflict sensitivity within climate
change adaptation is going to beincreasingly important as we go forward.
But also recognizing that's notjust a tick box that requires quite
long-term thinking and understandingto actually influence that as.
Laura May (21:54):
Hmm.
No, I'm really glad you raised thatbecause quite a number of the people
that listen to this podcast aresort of in that corporate mediation
space, family mediation space, butare all deeply interested in social
conflict and how mediation skillsetcan be brought to bear there.
And what I'm hearing is thatthere's a need for an appreciation
of the local circumstancesand also long-term engagement.
(22:15):
Is there anything else that you wouldrecommend that people need to have or do
in order to undertake this kind of work?
Laura Aumeer (22:22):
I think actually what's really interesting and that, the
example from Fiji shows is using someof those processes from looking at
conflict at a more personal level.
Can be really helpful to then lookingat using that understanding about
how address conflict on a personallevel to how to understand conflict
(22:43):
on a societal level as well.
And it's not that there's we need totake what's in the textbook and say, this
is how you address mediation betweencommunities or between communities and
governments or different governments,but actually we're different.
And there's been differentways of looking at personal
conflict from different cultures.
Laura May (23:01):
Mm-hmm.
Laura Aumeer (23:02):
We should bring that into our societal conflict, we
should learn from that side as well.
So I think not throwing away allthat knowledge, and I think that's
incredibly incredibly important.
But I think as I said, it'saround with that kind of
understanding of who's involved.
What are the needs, the listening.
If people listening to this podcastare looking at an area where they're
(23:24):
coming into it as an outsider perhapsand trying to support that mediation how
can they make sure that in the spacethey're creating it is inclusive of the
different groups that will be affected?
Laura May (23:37):
Mm.
Laura Aumeer (23:38):
And that's really hard to do as an outsider, but I think that's
really important that in terms of peacebuilding support, we are, we are doing
Laura May (23:47):
Fantastic.
I feel like a lot of people will changetheir careers after this podcast, And
so just getting back to climate changefor a moment though, how can addressing
climate change actually be a positive toolfor peace building or conflict reduction?
Laura Aumeer (24:02):
I always like talk when we talk about climate change and
conflicts, it's always nice to havea bit of a positive example as well.
But climate change is an issuethat doesn't respect national
or political boundaries.
The air quality doesn'tstop at a national border.
If there's SMO it will travel.
It's therefore what.
(24:23):
Seen and particularly in at themoment we're looking at, in some of
our work in South Asia, is usingit as a way of bringing bringing
people together across boundaries.
This is a shared problem.
It will require a shared solutionand actually building up the
capacities and confidence todiscuss climate change across border.
(24:45):
We hope can have a positiveimpact on wider dynamics as well.
So in our work in South Asia, we'reworking with partners to support an
environmental platform that is bringtogether scientists, business leaders
from India and Pakistan at the moment toidentify joint solutions for environmental
issues across the Punjab regions.
And some of that is looking atagriculture and air pollution.
(25:06):
And, people may say, what's, what'sthis got to do with peace building?
But if we can bring individuals togetherfrom both countries to address this.
We can really then make sure thatthat is feeding into wider dialogues
between the two countries and thatcan have a positive impact and help
support the wider work going on.
(25:26):
And other dialogues as well.
So seeing it as a yeah, as a.
Way to bring people together.
And ultimately then if both countriesare also better able to deal with
environmental problems it helps providemore space for them to also address and
support many of the other challengesthey're having to face as well.
And so kind of positive impacts ofcoming together to address climate
(25:47):
change have an impact much wider thanjust actually the climate change work.
Laura May (25:53):
For sure.
Excellent.
You know, as you were talking, I wasjust reflecting that I feel like every
podcast episode, all the practitionersare like, we need to have dialogue.
Like that's really what we need,and it's a really consistent
message and I think a strong one.
Based on what you've just said aboutspillover effects from one dialogue to
potentially other areas of conflicts.
I mean, I would say as well thatwe saw this in the Global Pound
(26:15):
conference series reports from theInternational Mediation Institute
is that people can be socialized.
To use these mechanisms and to talk betterand to communicate better and therefore
deal with their conflicts differently.
So we know it's possible and it's great tohear this message coming from all sides.
Now we just need everyone to , everyoneto take part in the dialogue.
Dialogue, right?
(26:35):
And so this year, I mean, youmentioned a bit already that
we have seen some particularlyhigh profile violent conflicts.
How does that actually impactpeace building organizations
such as conciliationresources and the work you do?
Laura Aumeer (26:49):
So what's really important for us is that we support
peace building, whether it's in thenews or not, and we have to take
a long-term approach to conflicts.
And obviously the kind of highprofile conflicts this year
have been very devastating.
We've seen as well that there areum, conflicts that don't get the
media attention or have had mediaattention and then fall off the radar.
(27:11):
And I think it's incredibly importantthat our approach at reconciliation
resources, we don't suddenly start workingsomewhere just because it's in the news.
We work where we have long-termrelationships and long-term
partnerships, and where we can add value.
And it's important we continue thatwork, whether it's in the news or
not, but as long as it's needed.
(27:32):
And that peace building isn'tjust around stopping the conflict.
It's around long-term buildingtrust creating connections.
And that takes more time and effort.
And what's important for an organizationlike us, and I think other peace
building organizations would perhapssay the same, is sometimes the challenge
of demonstrating the importanceof this work in other spaces and
(27:56):
continued peace building work as well.
And again, I think raising the issuesof complexity into these issues.
Laura May (28:02):
And so if there was one key takeaway that you wanted people to
have after today, what would that be?
Laura Aumeer (28:08):
I guess if I'm to Yeah.
Kind of, you know, keytakeaway and recommendation.
It's embrace the complexity weneed to, we, we need to understand
that things aren't linear.
We need to make sure we'rein, involving more groups than
we normally think to involve.
It makes the work harder, but itmeans we have a better chance of
(28:29):
achieving sustainable results andgetting to where we want to get.
Laura May (28:33):
And I just wondered as well actually, that for you,
you've said embrace the complexity.
How does one differentiatebetween complexity and chaos?
how do you actually cope withgoing into it a new situation where
there's so much going on and somany factors and so many voices, and
actually start chipping away at it?
Laura Aumeer (28:53):
I think that's, that's a really good question.
I.
I think the way to do it is really partof it is very simply trying to map out,
to map out some of that complexity.
Who is involved, where is some of thischaos coming from and in that identify,
what are the things we can do right now?
And that's not going tobe addressing everything.
(29:15):
And that's the challenge.
We, you know, can create a lovely theoryof change that has 15 different points.
And as an organization we might haveresources to do one or two and have
to recognize that some of that isbeing done elsewhere and try and
try understand where and how andto make sure everything aligns.
So I think there is a benefit inmapping out the complexity and identifying
(29:36):
where some of those entry points.
But to also then not get too caughtup in trying to do everything.
That's really critical as well tokind of identify where we can have a
positive impact to start with there.
Recognize that may need to changeand things may need to adapt and
try and create points to, to thinkabout that, to reflect, to do that.
(29:58):
Sad.
I don't think there's a yeah, magicway of saying how do we take this chaos
and make it a really neat path forward?
But I think that it's personally tryingto be able to continue in amongst ato
like chaos and find um, find the nextstep is always the kind of key point.
You, you might not know the nextstep, two steps down the line, but
if you can know what you're doing atthat moment and what you're seeking
(30:19):
to do next, it's always a bit.
Laura May (30:22):
Fantastic.
So both embrace the chaosand then start where you are.
All right.
Fantastic.
Well, look, Laura, thank you so much forjoining me today and not just because we
have double the amount of Laura Power.
Uh, It's been a wonderful conversation.
And for those interested in learning moreabout your work, where can they find you?
Laura Aumeer (30:41):
So.
Website is c hyphen r.org.
There is a really great repositoryof reports on there um, of
shorter blog posts about keylearnings that have come out.
So if you're interested inparticular topics or particular.
Do you go on there?
We've had a bit more recentlyaround some of our work on climate
(31:01):
change that we've talked about.
You can also look in there aroundour work on gender as well.
So yeah, I'd really recommend takinga look on there hopefully finding
some work that interests you.
And also on there there's ways tokeep up to date with us and get in
touch with us if you have areas thatyou are interested in finding more
about or potentially collaborating.
Laura May (31:23):
Super.
So see hyphen r.org.
Laura Aumeer (31:26):
Yes.
Laura May (31:27):
Easy.
Well, thank you so much again, andfor everyone else, until next time,
this is Laura May with a ConflictTipping podcast from mediate.com.
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping Podcast for mediate.com,
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and today Ihave with me another Laura, Laura Oea,
who is director of the Europe AsiaDepartment at Conciliation Resources.
She has particular expertise in peacebuilding management and gender, and
(00:32):
has worked in countries all over theworld with a view to resolving conflict.
Welcome other Laura
Laura Aumeer (00:39):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Laura May (00:41):
Of course.
It's wonderful to have you here,and I wanna dive straight in and
ask you what led to your currentrole at Conciliation Resources.
Laura Aumeer (00:52):
Well, so my background is a bit varied.
So academically I focused onpopular politics and governance.
So was trying to understand what madecivil society movement successful.
And then from that started tolook at the role and impact of
international influencers on civilsociety which led me to looking at
the role of international funding.
(01:12):
And so I moved from academic.
Um, Aside from that into working brieflywith the UK Department for International
Development and then in a developmentconsultancy where I spent a fair bit
of time supporting projects in Kenya,Nigeria, Malawi, and South Sudan.
And they were all quitedifferent projects.
But my work focused on adaptiveprogramming, embedding learning
(01:34):
through long-term projects.
And whilst the focus of these projectswas all slightly different there's a very
strong element around violence reduction.
And so from there I then joinedConciliation Resources where initially I
directed a Smart Peace program, which wasan adaptive peace building program that
used innovative collaborations to createlessons on how to best support peace
building in Nigeria, c a r and Myanmar.
(01:56):
And perhaps I should say for those whomight not know that conciliation resources
it's an international peace buildingorganization, so we work with partners
around the world to bring people togetherto find creative and sustainable paths.
And so from that, I'm nowUIA department director.
I o oversee our work in our SouthAsia program, our south caucuses
program, and also some of our thematiccross-regional work on women peace
(02:19):
and security and also climate change.
So I work with some of our incredibleexpert program teams, helping them
set up new projects, ensuring we'relearning from our current peace
building work and working with them tomake sure they've got the support and
resources they need in their work as.
Laura May (02:34):
And so this might be a silly question, but you've mentioned adaptive
programming, adaptive peace building.
What actually is that?
Laura Aumeer (02:42):
It's not a silly question at all.
So often with projects and particularlywhen there is funding for projects and.
It stems from kind of projects in thekind of humanitarian space much more.
There's often really perceived to be akind of very linear approach that you
put money in, you do some activities, youachieve a result, and that helps you get
to where you are you are wanting to go.
(03:04):
And with peace building.
And also in other wide sectorslike governance support as
well, it's much more complex.
There's numerous factorsin in the outside world.
So what you'll find is you'll dosome activities and actually maybe
something's changed in the contextor something happened that you
didn't necessarily expect , and sothere's not a kind of linear path
(03:25):
that takes you from A to B to C.
You're going from A to Bto D, back to C and having
Laura May (03:32):
Oh, is that in there somewhere?
Laura Aumeer (03:34):
having to kind of all go around.
With adaptive programming,it's trying to recognize that.
And so in our peace building approach,we know that it's not so straightforward
that we can't just expect that if we do.
This, this will happen andthis will lead to this.
It's around saying, actually we needto look at this in the long term.
(03:54):
We need to be not just reporting againstsomething that we thought would happen
when we started this, but actuallylooking at what has happened , and
recording some of the things that wereunintended and some of the external
impacts, as well as just things wedidn't expect our work to necessarily.
and then go back and understand that tohelp us get to where we want to get to.
(04:14):
So it's really about just emembedding the complexity into our
work, but having tools and processes,and ways to try and do that.
Laura May (04:22):
I mean, when you say it like that, it sounds really obvious, right?
Because it's not like, to get from waterpiece, just add water . It's like, oh no.
There's actually a lot of complex dynamicsat play here that we need to adapt to.
So thank you.
That makes a lot more sense to me now.
. And if I can ask, what actually drew youto this kind of work in the first place?
Laura Aumeer (04:42):
I think for me it's two things.
There's one is I am the kind of personthat is very interested around the kind
of how and the why and getting intosomething and the complexity there.
And so for me, you know, one of thethings I really enjoy in my role at
the moment and being able to work withsuch different teams is being able to
kind of work with them and dive intothe, what, what has happened here or
(05:05):
what has happened as a result of ourwork and what might we need to do?
And I enjoy that complexity.
But beyond it being just a.
A kind of intellectual interest.
The work that we do in in peacebuilding with civil society is I,
there is something around working withindividuals, communities, activists
(05:26):
who are often those that are mostaffected by the conflicts who are showing
incredible strength in what they do.
And it's incredibly inspiring towork with the partners we work with.
They're leading the work and for me,that's a really exciting role to be
able to see how we can support that.
And that's one of the things that Iguess in looking at the kind of work
I do and and my colleagues do, is Ithink often what drives us is how can
(05:49):
we continue to do that, continue tosupport them in, in very challenging.
Laura May (05:54):
Hmm.
Now it's great I think to be ableto see that impact of the work you do
on a daily basis, which can be quiterare in NGO and non-profit work, right.
Is that you do all these fabulousstuff and then you don't really
see how it affects people's liveson the ground, but it sounds
like you actually get to do that.
Laura Aumeer (06:11):
Well, I think still on a day-to-day basis, it's incredibly
hard, partly because everyone'salso so busy most of the time,
and you're often just stuck in theimmediate of, what do I need to get
through today, this week, this month?
And a lot of my colleagues as wellwill talk about the stresses when
you've got your day-to-day reportingand all these different demands on you.
I found that we, in conciliationresources, we use an approach called
(06:33):
outcome hosting, which again, leads intothat very linked to that adaptive peace
building approach I talked about earlier.
And it's for us as a way of how do welook at what's happened as a result of
our work and how does that fit and withthe aims that we are trying to get to?
In each piece of work, we'll try and doannually a kind of in-depth session where
we dive into that with our partners.
(06:55):
And those are some of the timeswhere you can really take a step
back and saying, oh, we, we, we aredoing something that is helping to
get to where we want to get to.
And we try and do this in differentways along the year as well.
It's quite easy to kind of forgetabout some of that or in, in the day-to
day for it to kind of slip past you.
And I think my way of trying to stayoptimistic about our work or infused
(07:16):
about it and it is trying to make surewe all remember that and have the space
to think about it and and do that work.
Cuz often we are working in context whicharen't getting better on a regular basis.
And in fact, you know, maybe with the.
Years or so have got worse in some regardsand trying to keep that space for our
partners going is often very challenging.
Laura May (07:37):
And so do I understand correctly that Conciliation resources
mostly works with civil societyand level two and three actors?
Laura Aumeer (07:45):
We work with um, In a mixture.
So our work works up all levels.
We find it helpful not to reallythink of it as distinct levels.
So we have worked to support peaceagreements to support mediators
working at track one level.
But I think what's reallyimportant in that work is.
Identifying the linkages as wellbetween the different spaces.
(08:07):
That it's not just kind of nationaland international processes that
happen in one place, and then civilsociety work is entirely separate.
At CR a lot of our work is aroundinclusive peace processes and
inclusion in its wider sense.
So it's not just about gender, it'swhich groups are involved whose
voices are being heard more widely.
Laura May (08:27):
Which is obviously so important.
I mean, I rememberreading Nicholas Christos?
Half the Sky?
And that particular factoid hasalways stuck in my head that during
World War I, in the US more womendied in childbirth and related
issues than men died in combat.
And yet we hear about one ofthese audiences and not the other.
(08:49):
And I think sort of that fact to it andthe impacts on wider civil society is
something we don't necessarily thinkabout so much beyond the headlines of
refugees fleeing country A, B, C as partof actually the problem of conflict.
Right.
So it's fantastic to see how yousupport these civil society initiatives
as well, so that doesn't get lost.
Laura Aumeer (09:09):
And I think it's, that's a really interesting fact, and I
think it's also really important.
That it's, as you said, we'renot just thinking about you
know, images of refugees seeinggroups as helpless groups.
You can talk about women intheir role in armed groups.
It's much more complex than the media isoften able to portray and does portray.
(09:30):
The media's often trying to,you know, simplify something
for a wider diverse audience.
But I think our job often is to makesure we recognize the complexity that
the work that is happening, whetherthat's to support actual negotiations
or processes or civil society in thatrecognizes that complexity as well.
Laura May (09:49):
Hmm.
And so because we're on the topic ofinclusion and also supporting peace
processes, I've seen that you're actuallyinvolved in building up women mediators.
So why is that, and is there a particularrole for women mediators in conflict?
Laura Aumeer (10:05):
So at the moment I see our work as part of the UN's rapid
response window which is a mechanismto address funding gaps for women's
participation and peace processes.
And Over the last few years atReconciliation Resources, we've been
really privileged to work with the womenmediators across the Commonwealth Network,
which is a network of just under 50 expertmediators from across the Commonwealth.
(10:25):
So globally
Laura May (10:26):
there in the name
Laura Aumeer (10:27):
it's a, it's a, yes, fairly descriptive name, but we
in that work and the reason forCR doing some of that work and.
We, we know statistically that ifpeace processes are more inclusive,
they're more likely to be sustainable.
We are talking years after UN SecurityCouncil resolution 1325, which recognized
gendered impact of conflict and the needto ensure inclusion in resolving conflict.
(10:52):
But we're still here in the very endof 2022 and not always recognizing
women's role in peace building.
It's under-recognized,it's undersupported.
I think when we we're lookingat this and, you know, say why,
what's the role for women mediatorsis the first thing I would say.
And I often say when talking aboutwomen's role in peace building is
(11:14):
women are peacebuilders already womenare leading peace building processes.
What is often ignored is.
Because so much of the talk aroundmediation focuses on track one
mediations and these high profile,international and national mediations
that we forget the work that'shappening at community society,
(11:35):
local level and women are leading.
Much of that work.
They're not supported, then theirprotection needs aren't met.
The civil society space is shrinking ina number of places and there's increased
pressure on women for doing that.
And also it's not being linked upto some of these wider processes
at kind of national or regionallevel when there's actually, we'd
be an immense value in doing so.
(11:58):
And then when it comes to thesehigh profile political processes,
we'll see the rooms dominatedby men without women in them.
And I think it's quite easy that wecan kind of forget the reason why.
And it's why I'm really glad you'veasked the ask the question cause it's
not just about having women in the room.
It's not just so that they can representwomen or but it's around actually
making sure that diverse groups arepart of different processes that their
(12:23):
needs are listened to within thoseprocesses, are shaping those processes.
And ultimately I think when we talkabout including women and including
diverse groups of women and diversegroups, what we're talking about
is trying to transform the process.
So it's not about just getting women atthe table, it's taking the table away.
It's transforming it.
And
Laura May (12:43):
Putting the table on fire,
Laura Aumeer (12:45):
yeah, indeed.
I think that's what we need to do.
And I think that's what's really importantthat it, we don't just think, oh, we
now need to make sure there's, you know,X number of women involved in this,
but actually why are we doing this andhow does this whole process need to.
Laura May (13:00):
And I do remember seeing as well the data you refer to where it
shows that, yeah, where women actuallyare involved in the peace process.
They tend to last, I think it waslike, average five or 10 years longer.
As as, sorry.
Another piece processes the outcomes ofthe peace processes, which is promising.
Laura Aumeer (13:17):
And I think that when you dig into it and you ask yourselves
why, it's not just because of Genderand, and having women involved.
But it's because it's a symptom ofthose processes being more inclusive
and recognizing wider needs.
And that's incredibly importantthat a peace process isn't
going to work if it's forgotten.
Half the people that are gonna beaffected by conflict and that they
(13:38):
may be affected in different ways, justsounds blindingly obvious, but here we
are still not doing this all the time.
Laura May (13:46):
Oh my goodness.
I mean, you'd think it'll be blatantlyobvious, but I had a quite an
interesting discussion with someone ona project I was working with the other
day . And they said, no, no, we don't.
We don't need to have women at thisdialogue because gender equality
has already been achieved in ourcountry, and so we can talk for them.
And my head just exploded.
I'm like, oh yeah, you know, genderequality's been achieved, so therefore we
(14:09):
don't need women to talk for themselves.
That were just, anyway, the sheerdouble thing was insane to me.
Laura Aumeer (14:14):
That's, yeah, that's, no, it's shocking and well, is it shocking?
That's the sad thing.
But I, and I think it's reallyimportant, you know, which women are
involved as well is really important.
As I said, we're not, it's not herejust about inclusion around numbers.
It's really around inclusivityand transforming processes.
So, Yeah, it's particularly important.
(14:36):
We make sure that these faces areinclusive and I mentioned the mediators
across the Commonwealth Network andone of the really inspiring things
around that network is it was a groupof um, when mediators who it was
diverse in that the cross, you know,globally, very different contexts and
regions working in different spaces.
(14:58):
And they were in the networksupporting each other, finding
ways to learn and help each otherup and when needed to as well.
So much the benefit was saying, well,it's not just, you know, for women in
truck one processes or women in, in thesedifferent processes, but what can we learn
from each other and, and making sure that,you know, if people were being invited to
speak on, on global platforms, who was it?
(15:19):
How do we make sure this ismore representative as well?
Laura May (15:22):
Fantastic.
Okay.
Well, one of the other things Iwanted to discuss with you today
was the interrelationship betweenconflict and climate change.
For for a long time now, we've hadthis idea of water wars or food
wars or whatever, which, is alwaysenvisages some use in the future,
but I understand that climate changeis already causing some conflicts
(15:44):
and then maybe some conflicts areexacerbating climate change in some way.
And so I'm just wondering about someof these less visible social conflicts
which might not be on the radar.
I mean, I understand you'vedone some work in, I think in
Fiji and West Africa on this.
Laura Aumeer (16:00):
So one of the projects I'm working on at conciliation resource
at the moment is we've, you know, theenvironment's been a factor in many of
the places we work for a number of years.
We've worked with differentgroups on environmental
management in different ways.
But we are increasingly we want toincreasingly recognize that climate change
is changing the environment where we work.
(16:22):
And that's adding another factor in.
And in some context that's incrediblyexplicit already and in others,
we know that the environment ischanging and it will continue to
change and shape conflict dynamics.
And it's important.
We don't ignore that.
So we are trying to bring togetherour learning from different programs,
from very different contexts.
So very different countries and areaswhere we have long-term work with partners
(16:44):
on peace building and helping them.
And help us as well look at the impactof climate change, how we can address
that intersection and what that means.
So you mentioned our work in Fiji andthat's some of the kind of longest
going work which is specificallyaround this intersection between
climate change and peace building.
You mentioned the kind ofwaters, the natural resources.
(17:05):
Again, and, you know, not to sound likea broken record about about complexity,
but again, this is an area where we needto kind of recognize the complexity.
We we'll refer to climate change,exacerbating conflict drivers.
In the areas where we're working.
What we're seeing is not climatechange directly leading to conflict,
but exacerbating drivers that alreadyexist or changing how they interact.
(17:28):
And that is therefore reallyimportant to understand how to resolve
conflict and how to prevent conflict.
So when we're looking at this atthe moment, we're currently um,
identified three broad areas whereclimate change is changing these
different areas, so we're talkingabout governance around livelihoods and
around traditional norms and cultures.
(17:48):
And climate change is pittingpressure on these different areas, in
different ways, in different places.
All of that can therefore then exacerbatethe conflict drivers in those areas.
So it can put pressureon governance systems.
You can therefore see increased imbalancesin power, particularly look looking at
what that means around gender and age.
And if we don't look at that withinthe work around kind of climate
(18:11):
change and conflict, we wepotentially miss a big part of the
puzzle and what we are trying to do.
And I think it's really important.
Within that we work with differentgroups with governments as well
as, as well as with communitiesto understand what this impact is.
Not just now, but in the long term.
Cause this will continue, climate changewill continue to have these effects.
(18:31):
And how to support communities associeties, governments to better
resolve this and address thisand build this into their work.
So.
I know it, it might helpif I give a, an example,
Laura May (18:43):
I would love some examples.
, I feel like I wanna set an exam question.
You know, can you gimme a concreteexample for each of these areas
that intersect with climate change?
Laura Aumeer (18:52):
So one example.
So colleagues of mine working in theKaramoja region um, they're working in
the border areas of Uganda for this work.
And they've been exploringwith partners the links between
climate change and cattle ratingas a driver of violent conflict.
And one aspect is that climatechange is impacting livelihoods.
It's putting additionalpressure on the ability to meet
(19:14):
cultural gendered expectations.
And that's in part driving more cattlerating because that becomes a way for
men to meet those gendered expectationsof what they should be doing as a man.
And without that bit ofunderstanding within that to
kind of otherwise think of it.
Simplistically around youknow, resources available.
(19:36):
we miss a big part of the pictureto be able to address that and to
find ways to resolve those issues.
Laura May (19:42):
But just to take a step back though, so the gendered expectation is
that that men will have a lot of cattle,or is it specifically about cattle rating?
I mean, what actually isthe expectation there?
Laura Aumeer (19:52):
So um, around the expectations around being a provider.
Laura May (19:56):
Mm-hmm.
Laura Aumeer (19:57):
And that their ability to then provide, and then how cattle rating
is seen as part of that, as a way to meetthat when it's harder for them to provide.
Laura May (20:07):
Okay, great.
Thank you.
Thanks for the clarification
Laura Aumeer (20:10):
no, and, and again, it's, it's the kind of looking into
this and again, seeing how does genderand climate change and conflict um,
interact and how can we address this?
And maybe another example, in Fiji,and this is again where not to just
add another complication onto this,but it's not just climate change
exacerbating conflict, but actuallythe responses to climate change can, as
(20:30):
well the responses that may be tryingto address impacts of climate change.
If they don't think about how those meansof addressing climate change are affecting
different groups of people or how they'reinvolving those most affected, again,
they risk increasing power imbalancesin exacerbating climate drivers.
And so in our work in in Fiji Workingwith a partner transcend Oceana to support
(20:53):
more inclusive spaces for dialogue.
So they're using traditional dialoguemethods to make sure that consultations
and decision making, particularly aroundissues around community relocation um,
make sure that they're more inclusiveand therefore to help communities local
governance respond better to climatechange, but in a way that recogniz
(21:16):
existing conflict drivers, but also howthese have been changed by climate change.
Andt, one of the worries that theyhave seen as they've been doing
this work is that there's a lotof organizations and initiatives
to try and address climate change.
And they know they need to consult thecommunity, but if they don't actually
know where they're working really.
They really do have the potential to doharm if they're not conflict sensitive.
(21:38):
And I think ensuring that kind ofconflict sensitivity within climate
change adaptation is going to beincreasingly important as we go forward.
But also recognizing that's notjust a tick box that requires quite
long-term thinking and understandingto actually influence that as.
Laura May (21:54):
Hmm.
No, I'm really glad you raised thatbecause quite a number of the people
that listen to this podcast aresort of in that corporate mediation
space, family mediation space, butare all deeply interested in social
conflict and how mediation skillsetcan be brought to bear there.
And what I'm hearing is thatthere's a need for an appreciation
of the local circumstancesand also long-term engagement.
(22:15):
Is there anything else that you wouldrecommend that people need to have or do
in order to undertake this kind of work?
Laura Aumeer (22:22):
I think actually what's really interesting and that, the
example from Fiji shows is using someof those processes from looking at
conflict at a more personal level.
Can be really helpful to then lookingat using that understanding about
how address conflict on a personallevel to how to understand conflict
(22:43):
on a societal level as well.
And it's not that there's we need totake what's in the textbook and say, this
is how you address mediation betweencommunities or between communities and
governments or different governments,but actually we're different.
And there's been differentways of looking at personal
conflict from different cultures.
Laura May (23:01):
Mm-hmm.
Laura Aumeer (23:02):
We should bring that into our societal conflict, we
should learn from that side as well.
So I think not throwing away allthat knowledge, and I think that's
incredibly incredibly important.
But I think as I said, it'saround with that kind of
understanding of who's involved.
What are the needs, the listening.
If people listening to this podcastare looking at an area where they're
(23:24):
coming into it as an outsider perhapsand trying to support that mediation how
can they make sure that in the spacethey're creating it is inclusive of the
different groups that will be affected?
Laura May (23:37):
Mm.
Laura Aumeer (23:38):
And that's really hard to do as an outsider, but I think that's
really important that in terms of peacebuilding support, we are, we are doing
Laura May (23:47):
Fantastic.
I feel like a lot of people will changetheir careers after this podcast, And
so just getting back to climate changefor a moment though, how can addressing
climate change actually be a positive toolfor peace building or conflict reduction?
Laura Aumeer (24:02):
I always like talk when we talk about climate change and
conflicts, it's always nice to havea bit of a positive example as well.
But climate change is an issuethat doesn't respect national
or political boundaries.
The air quality doesn'tstop at a national border.
If there's SMO it will travel.
It's therefore what.
(24:23):
Seen and particularly in at themoment we're looking at, in some of
our work in South Asia, is usingit as a way of bringing bringing
people together across boundaries.
This is a shared problem.
It will require a shared solutionand actually building up the
capacities and confidence todiscuss climate change across border.
(24:45):
We hope can have a positiveimpact on wider dynamics as well.
So in our work in South Asia, we'reworking with partners to support an
environmental platform that is bringtogether scientists, business leaders
from India and Pakistan at the moment toidentify joint solutions for environmental
issues across the Punjab regions.
And some of that is looking atagriculture and air pollution.
(25:06):
And, people may say, what's, what'sthis got to do with peace building?
But if we can bring individuals togetherfrom both countries to address this.
We can really then make sure thatthat is feeding into wider dialogues
between the two countries and thatcan have a positive impact and help
support the wider work going on.
(25:26):
And other dialogues as well.
So seeing it as a yeah, as a.
Way to bring people together.
And ultimately then if both countriesare also better able to deal with
environmental problems it helps providemore space for them to also address and
support many of the other challengesthey're having to face as well.
And so kind of positive impacts ofcoming together to address climate
(25:47):
change have an impact much wider thanjust actually the climate change work.
Laura May (25:53):
For sure.
Excellent.
You know, as you were talking, I wasjust reflecting that I feel like every
podcast episode, all the practitionersare like, we need to have dialogue.
Like that's really what we need,and it's a really consistent
message and I think a strong one.
Based on what you've just said aboutspillover effects from one dialogue to
potentially other areas of conflicts.
I mean, I would say as well thatwe saw this in the Global Pound
(26:15):
conference series reports from theInternational Mediation Institute
is that people can be socialized.
To use these mechanisms and to talk betterand to communicate better and therefore
deal with their conflicts differently.
So we know it's possible and it's great tohear this message coming from all sides.
Now we just need everyone to , everyoneto take part in the dialogue.
Dialogue, right?
(26:35):
And so this year, I mean, youmentioned a bit already that
we have seen some particularlyhigh profile violent conflicts.
How does that actually impactpeace building organizations
such as conciliationresources and the work you do?
Laura Aumeer (26:49):
So what's really important for us is that we support
peace building, whether it's in thenews or not, and we have to take
a long-term approach to conflicts.
And obviously the kind of highprofile conflicts this year
have been very devastating.
We've seen as well that there areum, conflicts that don't get the
media attention or have had mediaattention and then fall off the radar.
(27:11):
And I think it's incredibly importantthat our approach at reconciliation
resources, we don't suddenly start workingsomewhere just because it's in the news.
We work where we have long-termrelationships and long-term
partnerships, and where we can add value.
And it's important we continue thatwork, whether it's in the news or
not, but as long as it's needed.
(27:32):
And that peace building isn'tjust around stopping the conflict.
It's around long-term buildingtrust creating connections.
And that takes more time and effort.
And what's important for an organizationlike us, and I think other peace
building organizations would perhapssay the same, is sometimes the challenge
of demonstrating the importanceof this work in other spaces and
(27:56):
continued peace building work as well.
And again, I think raising the issuesof complexity into these issues.
Laura May (28:02):
And so if there was one key takeaway that you wanted people to
have after today, what would that be?
Laura Aumeer (28:08):
I guess if I'm to Yeah.
Kind of, you know, keytakeaway and recommendation.
It's embrace the complexity weneed to, we, we need to understand
that things aren't linear.
We need to make sure we'rein, involving more groups than
we normally think to involve.
It makes the work harder, but itmeans we have a better chance of
(28:29):
achieving sustainable results andgetting to where we want to get.
Laura May (28:33):
And I just wondered as well actually, that for you,
you've said embrace the complexity.
How does one differentiatebetween complexity and chaos?
how do you actually cope withgoing into it a new situation where
there's so much going on and somany factors and so many voices, and
actually start chipping away at it?
Laura Aumeer (28:53):
I think that's, that's a really good question.
I.
I think the way to do it is really partof it is very simply trying to map out,
to map out some of that complexity.
Who is involved, where is some of thischaos coming from and in that identify,
what are the things we can do right now?
And that's not going tobe addressing everything.
(29:15):
And that's the challenge.
We, you know, can create a lovely theoryof change that has 15 different points.
And as an organization we might haveresources to do one or two and have
to recognize that some of that isbeing done elsewhere and try and
try understand where and how andto make sure everything aligns.
So I think there is a benefit inmapping out the complexity and identifying
(29:36):
where some of those entry points.
But to also then not get too caughtup in trying to do everything.
That's really critical as well tokind of identify where we can have a
positive impact to start with there.
Recognize that may need to changeand things may need to adapt and
try and create points to, to thinkabout that, to reflect, to do that.
(29:58):
Sad.
I don't think there's a yeah, magicway of saying how do we take this chaos
and make it a really neat path forward?
But I think that it's personally tryingto be able to continue in amongst ato
like chaos and find um, find the nextstep is always the kind of key point.
You, you might not know the nextstep, two steps down the line, but
if you can know what you're doing atthat moment and what you're seeking
(30:19):
to do next, it's always a bit.
Laura May (30:22):
Fantastic.
So both embrace the chaosand then start where you are.
All right.
Fantastic.
Well, look, Laura, thank you so much forjoining me today and not just because we
have double the amount of Laura Power.
Uh, It's been a wonderful conversation.
And for those interested in learning moreabout your work, where can they find you?
Laura Aumeer (30:41):
So.
Website is c hyphen r.org.
There is a really great repositoryof reports on there um, of
shorter blog posts about keylearnings that have come out.
So if you're interested inparticular topics or particular.
Do you go on there?
We've had a bit more recentlyaround some of our work on climate
(31:01):
change that we've talked about.
You can also look in there aroundour work on gender as well.
So yeah, I'd really recommend takinga look on there hopefully finding
some work that interests you.
And also on there there's ways tokeep up to date with us and get in
touch with us if you have areas thatyou are interested in finding more
about or potentially collaborating.
Laura May (31:23):
Super.
So see hyphen r.org.
Laura Aumeer (31:26):
Yes.
Laura May (31:27):
Easy.
Well, thank you so much again, andfor everyone else, until next time,
this is Laura May with a ConflictTipping podcast from mediate.com.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.