January 23, 2023 • 40 mins
In this episode, Laura speaks with PhD candidate Brianna Hernandez, whose work focuses on gender, conflict, and environmentalism. She is currently at Florida International University, committee member for the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, and a WWF panda ambassador.
Listen if you want to hear about:
- The problem of binaries and black-and-white thinking
- Why we can't 'just add women and stir' in peacebuilding processes
- 'Not all men', gender-based violence, and victim/perpetrator roles
- The cross-over between gender inclusion and environmentalism
- The problem of empowerment
- When we should (and shouldn't!) listen to experts
- Personal website: https://briannanhernandez.com/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brihz1/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/_brihernandez1
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura May (00:11):
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping Podcast for mediate.com,
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and today Ihave with me Brianna Hernandez, who is
a PhD candidate of Florida InternationalUniversity Committee member for the
Women's International League for Peaceand Freedom, and a WWF Panda Ambassador,
(00:32):
which is my personal favorite of.
She is interested in language,power, conflict, environmentalism,
and overcoming false binary.
So welcome, Brianna.
Brianna Hernandez (00:43):
Hi, Laura.
Thanks for having me.
Laura May (00:45):
So happy to have you here.
I feel like we're gonnahave a fun episode.
Because we've actually met before as well.
I feel like this is going to be a thingwhere it's just Laura speaks with people
she has met at different conferences,
Brianna Hernandez (00:56):
I love that.
Laura May (00:57):
Yeah, which is totally fine.
But yeah, I, I first saw youpresenting your work at North ISA
Northeast, I think in Providence.
And I remember being on the edge of myseat and wanting to do like fist pumps
and stuff, cuz you were talking aboutgender and conflict and I was so into it.
So I'm very happy I've got you toanswer all of my questions today.
And so the first question I want to askyou is more of a trailing sentence as is
(01:24):
right for academia, and that is to binaryor not to binary because I understand
you're all about binaries and whetherthey should or should not be used.
Brianna Hernandez (01:34):
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
Trailing sentence.
We love that.
Well, I mean, for one, just binariesin general, really at the center of all
the different kinds of work that I do.
So when we're talking about binaries,we're talking about really just, you know,
having systems that only recognize thatthings exist on two accesses, right?
You either are a yes, no male female.
(01:55):
There's nothing that really is gray.
There's nothing in the in between,but all the exciting things
happen in the in between, right?
We exist in the in between.
So kind of simple answer would alwaysbe, you know, not the binary, right?
Because that's what a lot of my work isdoing is trying to complicate that story.
Also when we're thinking aboutgender binaries, we're talking
(02:15):
about two distinct opposites whichalso just don't really make sense
in the real world that we live in.
And that tend to lead to a lot ofhierarchy, a lot of oppression.
But to complicate things like alittle bit too binary can also
be useful when we're talking in.
Because it is true that peopleof different identities that
exist in different positions doexperience the world in different
(02:36):
ways, and they're impacted by.
Events by conflict events, byenvironmental disasters in different ways.
So understanding the world and eventsas gendered does help us a lot of times
to work on conflict reconciliation,to work on reporting mechanisms, even.
(02:57):
So.
Sometimes the binary can be helpfulin practice as long as we understand
it as something that is artificial andas something that we're only using to
meet some type of transformative goal.
Laura May (03:10):
It makes total sense.
Because what I hear you saying is that onthe one hand, these binaries are made up.
On the other hand, we need to understandthat people act as though they were
real, and that gives them a differentlived experience depending on.
Which position they occupy.
Right?
But what I hear sort of talking aboutnow when you related gender specifically
(03:31):
to hierarchies is it reminds you of thatidea of dominated culture, which I think
might have been Jackson Cats originally.
This idea of not only is therea hierarchy, but one person has
power and the other person doesn't.
So it's dominant and submissive.
So in your work, how does this genderhierarchy specifically relate to conflict?
Brianna Hernandez (03:52):
Yeah.
I mean there's so many exampleshere, but when, so when you said
dominator culture, I'm thinkingthen about fear and force, right?
How does fear and forceplay out in these spaces?
How are they employed and weaponized?
Um, So I look a lot at sexualand gender-based violence
in in conflict spaces.
And right.
We can take that in two ways.
(04:13):
We can think about kind of internationalconflicts or ethnic conflicts or
things that we would consider verypolitical, very international relations.
Right.
But we also see these narrativesplay out in the domestic space.
So you have a lot ofdomestic violence literature.
Even that is also looking at, youknow, the role of fear and force
at home in the private sphere.
So I think something that's importanthere, and something that gender lets us do
(04:35):
when we apply that as a lens is to look athow violence is conceptualized and then
used across public and private spaces.
When we think about conflict and howviolence is not just one thing, right?
If I punch someone, weknow that is violent.
But also if, for example, in a domesticspace, if I'm in control of your finances
and you cannot go to the grocery storewithout my, okay, that is a form of.
(05:00):
In the same way, well, in a differentway, but kind of in the same lane.
If we think about this in amore political sense, right?
If you are a prisoner in a village, Ihave taken over your village and I say
that you are not allowed to interactwith your family unless I say that you are
allowed to interact with your family, thatis also still violence and it's a very
(05:20):
gendered form of violence, if I separatemothers and children, for example.
So I think.
Something that a gender lens reallydoes that's important when we're thinking
about fear and about force is allow usto talk across spaces, which allows us
to connect experiences across realms,which I think is extremely important.
But it also lets us kind of complicateand problematized fear and force.
(05:42):
Right?
So kind of general narratives are usually,well I am a woman so I must fear you
are a man, so you must force, but usingkind of a gendered lens, using feminist
theories, we're able to really complicatethat idea and say, well, maybe fear and.
Is not just a person that doesthese things, but it's a process
and maybe that process can existacross this non-binary spectrum.
(06:06):
And people who exist at all places on thatspectrum can act as the force or as the
person who is fearful in those situations.
So I think it just really, it lets uscomplicate kind of what is dominance?
What is violence in the conflictspace, whether that's a domestic
space or a more political space.
Laura May (06:25):
And so it sounds like this lens and this problematization
actually really helps, serves, asyou mentioned, the domestic space.
So for example, understanding that men canbe victims of domestic violence and have
forced supplied against them, as opposedto always seeing it the other way around.
In a recent episode, I recorded withLaura EMEA of Conciliation Resources,
there was a bit of a stress upon peacebuilding processes, being inclusive as it
(06:49):
relates to genders and other binaries, butyou've actually written a paper, which is
called sexual abuse in UN peacekeeping.
The problem of viewingWomen as a Quick Fix.
So how do we know that womenare being seen as a quick fix in
this kind of context, and alsowhat problems does that cause?
Brianna Hernandez (07:07):
Sure.
So let me preface by, there is somereally great work, academically
and on the practitioner side of theways that bringing women in has.
Built more transformativeand lasting piece.
I'm not saying that that's not a thing.
There are really useful formsof gender mainstreaming that
can be really transformative.
(07:27):
But then there are really basic formsof gender mainstreaming that are kind
of, let's throw in some women andstir the pot and see what happens and
call this gender mainstreaming andcall this a gendered peace building.
And that just does not work.
. It's not useful.
And that is historically, thekind of gender mainstreaming
that we see in un peacekeeping.
(07:47):
So how do we know that thisis viewed as a quick fix?
There's plenty of literature thatwe can go back to and look at.
Talking about kind of the development ofadding women into peacekeeping groups.
There's stats that tell you howmany women from each country, all of
these kinds of things are accessible.
But I think what's really telling is whenyou get these narratives and stories out
(08:09):
of the UN saying, oh yeah, we've done it.
We've gendered peacekeeping,we've done this great thing.
Now women and girls because of coursewomen and girls as a concept and, you
know, parenthesis always together, um
Laura May (08:22):
Totally unproblematic as well in every
Brianna Hernandez (08:23):
way
oh of right, of course.
Um, This is fine, but you know, we are.
We've created peacekeeping unitsthat hacked as protectors and
models for women and girls inthe zones that we're working in.
Right?
So when you have an institution that'sreally gung-ho and tooting their own horn
about something, and then you go in andyou look at the stats and you're like,
(08:45):
well, Something here is not adding up.
Right.
That's kind of where this came out ofwas the fact that you had an institution
that was so publicly proud of thetype of gender mainstreaming that they
were doing, that it's like, oh, cool.
Like what can we learn from this?
, well, we can learn that this isn'tthe way, actually to be doing this
kind of work Um, so I mean, for one,if you're looking at from the side of
(09:12):
these women who are peacekeepers, right?
You have this sort ofdouble, double burden.
So they're coming in as the protectorsof women and girls, as the people
who are supposed to be especiallyequipped to respond to the issues of
women and girls in local communities.
So you have them coming in like this,but then you also have these same women
who have to protect themselves on eachother from sexual and gender-based
(09:35):
violence in their own spaces from otherpeacekeepers, also from community members.
So we have this double work.
They're also still doing the whatevermission work that all the peacekeepers
are doing, and then they have the extra,well, "oh, we got a call and there's this
girl and she has to report this thing.
We have to send a woman".
Right, or this is, this is just your job.
(09:56):
And then you also have, which is whatwhat really made me angry actually, is you
have this language where you have thesewomen who are, you know there who are
doing this amazing thing in these localcontexts, but who are also supposed to
be babysitting their male counter parts.
You have this language and thesenarratives that say, well, when
we add more women to units, thenmaybe the men will behave better.
(10:18):
And there's just something sofundamentally wrong with that.
One, placing the burden on these womento babysit their male colleagues.
Two, thinking that just thepresence of women will be enough
to change an entire culture.
So we have also studies thatrelate this to within the military.
Oh, if we add women, does that meanthat we're changing the culture or
that we've just added them into aculture that's already hyper-masculine?
(10:42):
Right.
The same kind of language happenswithin peacekeeping units where it's,
well, are they babysitting or isthere something that happens where
now you actually just added a layerof protection or scapegoating for
men who are misbehaving, let's say.
So it's, it's really an interestingplace there because then you
can look at institutional.
(11:02):
Sociological dynamics within units,but then also how this is played out
in these zones that are trying toreconcile, they're trying to build
back that are recovering from conflict.
I think that answered your question.
I kind of got lost inmy own kinda rambling.
It's
Laura May (11:17):
No, it, it was fantastic.
And especially the point youmade about women are failing a
babysitting if their men misbehave.
It's ludicrous really.
Right.
Anyway, but I mean, notto be all, what about men?
But I do know you've done some researchon men as victims of sexualized
and sexual violence in conflict.
Cuz I saw you presenting about that at ic Northeast when I was in the, in my seat.
(11:40):
And so how does actuallyrelate to gender hierarchies?
I mean, what work haveyou actually done there?
Brianna Hernandez (11:45):
Yeah.
Um.
Actually, I think I might be able toanswer this better in telling a story.
So I was guest lecturing actuallyin one of my friend's classes and
we were talking about identities andI was there to talk about gender.
And one of the students, after a verylong kind of, I'm prefacing my question
with, I do not hate women and I'm allfor equality, says, well, what about men?
(12:09):
Because it's not all men.
And we hear not all menall the time, right?
So it was really interesting to watch somany of the, women identifying students
have facial reactions and like justbodily reactions to this comment, right?
And so I had to take a breath beforeI answered because I have all of these
women's students who are looking at melike, what are you gonna do about this?
(12:32):
And I had to, I guess, crush them a littlebit with not just jumping directly into
the defense they thought was needed.
And I had to say, you know,okay, like, I hear you, right?
It's not, we can say not allmen, and that is fair, and that
is a factual statement, right?
And then I asked for him tohold his question and let me
(12:54):
do like a little demonstration.
So I asked everyone a seriesof questions and to raise their
hands if they've ever experienced.
Whatever the question was, right?
Do you lock your car dooras soon as you get into it?
Do you hold your keys between yourhand when you're walking alone?
And he had to sit there and watchthe women in his class, people that
he spent the entire semester withraise their hand one after another.
(13:16):
So then this opened up the conversationfor talking about gendered experiences.
And I actually used the paperthat you're talking about as
my example to lead into that.
And I was like, you know,you're completely right.
It's not all men and what genderand what feminism allows us to do.
Not just to complicate hierarchiesand dismantle them, but also to
(13:36):
build them in different ways.
So what we did together then as a class isbuild kind of an opposite hierarchy from
the one we would generally talk about.
And we talked about femaleperpetrators of violence and we
talked about male victims of violence.
And I know some of the stories thatcame out of that Northeast paper
are quite graphic, so I'm not gonnago kind of into specifics there.
(13:56):
But I always turn to, for example, SierraLeone as a great example of where men have
experienced heinous sexualized violence,and it's so hard to even see reports of
this or to see how reconciliation wassupposed to happen in a way that was
actually helpful to these survivors.
(14:19):
Because we couldn't even codethings correctly because we
didn't have the languages.
And we didn't have in our questionnairesand reports are like, institutionally
we just don't have these questions inour reports that allow us to say, well,
this man who was forced at gunpointto commit an act of violence is also a
victim and not necessarily a perpetrator.
(14:40):
Our international definitionof rape at the I C C doesn't
allow us to name these things.
So what gender then does here and whatfeminist lenses and theories can do for
us is say that this entire population,because of the way we understand
hierarchy, is completely invisible.
And that's what that paper was tryingto do was unfreeze those narratives
(15:01):
to make more people visibile.
Is, how is it that we can talk aboutconflict reconciliation if we cannot
even talk about all of the differenttypes of lived experiences of the
people who went through that conflict?
Laura May (15:14):
I think there's something really powerful in what you've just said
because you really neatly illustratedthat this hierarchy of gender and
gender binaries in this case plays out.
On that domestic level and sort of the,the day-to-day lived experience of women
with, with car keys between your fingersand so on, and it plays out and has the
same kind of power in these deeply violentconflicts in a way that disadvantages
(15:38):
everybody, from the personal basisto the broader societal basis.
So probably good we're workingon taking it down, right?
And so let me even ask you about yourdoctoral research, because I understand
you're still using feminist lensesthere, but you are doing something with
environmentalism, to violence against men.
Brianna Hernandez (15:57):
It was quite different.
Yeah.
That was a journey.
So I kind of came into the PhD programvery much focused on the traditional
understanding of a violent conflict space.
So somewhere where different armedentities had tried to kill each other
and take over territory or whatever theirgoal may have been and kind of ended up.
(16:22):
Looking than more at human rights andhuman rights violations in those spaces.
And then very much interested in theinstitutions that are working there.
And throughout all of this,you know, gender and feminism,
was spread all the way through.
And then I was getting to the pointwhere, okay, well I really need to
pick a topic for my dissertation.
I can't just keep doingall of these things that I.
(16:44):
That I'm interested in and that Ilike to do just because I like them.
You know, I have to do something.
So I was trying to find the threads.
So who do I want to be as a scholar,as a scholar activist, as someone
who wants to work in spaces wheretransformative change can happen, right?
And human security, human rights andfeminism, we're always that nexus.
(17:05):
That's where it all comes backto, for me, is really complicating
hierarchies and identities and reallylooking at the role that language
plays in all of those spaces.
And then as I.
I was continuing kind ofreading and looking at this.
I got my activism side.
So you mentioned likethe Panda Ambassadors.
I'm extremely involved with World'sWildlife Fund and I started noticing
that within that space we startedhaving conversations about gender
(17:29):
and about identity and how thesethings play out in conservation
or don't play out in conservation.
And I was like, I wonder.
And because, you know, cynical,because, you know, I come from the
looking at the conflict space, I'mlike, Hmm, how much of this is a lie?
Like, oh, how, how deep
Laura May (17:45):
I love that it's all lies
Brianna Hernandez (17:48):
um,
which I probably sounds pretty terrible,but, you know, I'm like, like I'm
looking for things to be angry about.
Right?
But no, I just really like how deepis this depth of commitment, you know?
And so then I started to realize, Allof this, all of these organizations,
NGOs different institutionalentities working in this comfort
conservation space are now all of asudden women's rights activists too.
(18:10):
And I was like, wait a second.
When did we marry, you know,environmentalism with women's equality?
Like, how exactly did this happen?
When did it happen?
Whose ideal was this?
Is it working?
Does it mean something on the ground?
So these questions started coming outand then after a lot of reading and
back and forth with my major professor,I've arrived at the point where my
(18:34):
dissertation then is looking at.
Hierarchies and identities andthe construction of gender and
the construction of brightnessentity that is women and girls
within the conservation space.
So still looking at human rights, stilllooking at kind of that human security
thread when we're thinking aboutenvironmental degradation and disaster
belief, but very much questioningstill identity and hierarchy, right?
(18:57):
So like where do these things happen?
How are they happening?
. And is this transformative at all?
Like, is adding gender, is thisa ad gender and stir like with
peacekeeping, or is there somethingmore meaningful that's going on
here and what can we learn from it?
I don't know yet.
And that's what I'mexcited to keep looking at.
Is there a thing that could existthat is a truly, you know non
(19:20):
essentialist feminist environmental?
Hopefully, maybe I guess we'll findout when I write this dissertation,
, but, that's kind of where I ended up.
So definitely just still withthe hierarchies, still with
construction of gender issomething that's really important.
But I guess like the, the environmentjust kind of added in from my more
activist side is where that came from.
Laura May (19:42):
I had this vision of you with pandas in the jungle,
like, but , you know, getting
Brianna Hernandez (19:48):
be amazing.
Laura May (19:51):
Yeah, so you, you're there with your panders, we're
talking about gender, like I reallyhave his vision to be doing this.
Like
Brianna Hernandez (19:58):
that's, that would be amazing.
Can we have a circle of pandas whilewe discuss dismantling patriarchy?
Because that would Yes,
Laura May (20:06):
Oh my god.
Brianna Hernandez (20:07):
please.
Laura May (20:08):
I mean, I feel like in the interim I would take a circle of
puppies, I feel like that's moreeasy to accomplish than panders.
Like I hear at least one of theseis an endangered species . So I'm
not sure we can play with them
Brianna Hernandez (20:18):
true.
I think we could work with puppies.
Laura May (20:21):
Well good.
Cause I feel like otherwise,the WWF will listen to this and
be like, we can't let her near
Brianna Hernandez (20:25):
Yeah.
Wait a second.
Hold on.
We might need to investigate this further.
I think Laura Andre are planning onlike kidnapping some pandas for this
circle and they're talking about.
Laura May (20:38):
Well, I mean, I dunno how many panties there are in Florida.
I'm pretty sure therearen't any in Belgium.
So, you know, we're a long way fromrealizing this plan is what I'm saying,
Brianna Hernandez (20:46):
Yes.
Laura May (20:47):
tomorrow just yet.
Oh my goodness.
And so, you've said that you'regonna find out about the gender
aspect of environmentalism.
And it's certainly something I'veencountered a couple of times
before, especially in conjunctionwith this dominated culture idea.
I think it's just because, like I followthis one particular Twitter stream, which
is all about it, and they're like, well,yeah, you know, in the same way we have
these hierarchies where it's okay formen to dominate women Also, it's okay
(21:11):
for humans to dominate the environment,
right?
No one can see this because ofthe podcast, but bring this here.
Like, yes, this is what it's all about,
Brianna Hernandez (21:24):
Yes.
No, that's just so important and it'sactually, I'm pulling a lot from, I got
really lucky with one of my advisorswho also does indigenous studies,
but I'm looking so much at indigenousliterature on this, on sovereignty,
on reciprocity, on this connectionbetween, I'm gonna use the word
consumption because that, I mean, at thebasely, like that's what it really is.
This consumption of boththe feminine, whatever we
(21:47):
understand is the feminine and.
The consumption of the planet andthe links there, and then even the
violence that we think it's okayto do then on the planet and on
whatever we consider the feminine.
Right.
They're so intertwined and I thinkindigenous communities have just so much
knowledge and so much to say about this.
So yeah, I'm pulling so muchfrom there and learning so much.
(22:10):
But yeah, I think that's so importantthat kind of understand and I mean,
where does this mother Earth, right?
Why is earth a.
Laura May (22:16):
Yeah, I was gonna ask, cause I mean, do you see that in the indigenous
literature you're working on as well?
Is it also a mother ora feminine idea There?
Brianna Hernandez (22:23):
In many communities it is, but what I think is really
important in thinking and when we'retalking about that, is the fact that
these are also communities where,sure, maybe jobs were separate, right?
Or you have certain genderedroles when it comes to jobs, but
these are also communities where.
Their conceptions of genderare not binary, right?
You have so many genders,you have so many sexualities.
(22:45):
And also just because you are doing whatmay be considered, you know, a woman's
work, this isn't placed on some hierarchythat's lower than whatever the man's work
is and whatever it is that they're doing.
This is something thatexists in a circle, right?
It's reciprocal everyone is doing forthe community, and it doesn't put you
on this higher playing field because.
(23:06):
, you're, you're doing the fishingrather than I don't know, weaving
a basket or whatever it is.
Which I think is just so amazingand so useful and something that the
rest of us have forgotten somewhere.
And we've somehow, I think there'sjust something in there about our
understandings of oppression of theplanet, exploitation of the planet, and
then oppression, exploitation of women.
(23:28):
And I think.
. Yeah.
Even like that mother of earth language.
But I think that there's a way tobe able to say, you know, maybe the
planet does need some mothering, right?
And maybe that's okay, but maybethat doesn't have to mean that it's
somehow less than the fathering,whatever the fathering of the planet
would be or something like that.
Which is also a really interesting kindof thread when we're talking about on the
(23:49):
ground practice when it comes to bringing.
Gender or women's empowerment andempowerment is the buzzword right now.
You know, development went throughthat stage where they love to say the
word empowerment, and now we have likekind of the sustainable community,
love to say the word empowerment.
Laura May (24:06):
I'm guilty of using it all the time as well.
I'm like, have I empowered people today?
It's, it's very cheesy,
Brianna Hernandez (24:12):
But sometimes it's really useful.
Right.
And, and I like that.
You know, have you, haveyou empowered someone today?
Have you somehow provided them withsome type of resource or something that
they can then use to lift themselves up?
Right.
But then it begs the questionof empowerment, right?
If someone is being empowered,someone's an empowerer, and what
does that positionality say?
Who gets to be the empowerer?
(24:33):
And is there empowerment?
Whatever your understandingof empowerment may be.
For example, I really like AndreaCornwell's work there, but is there
an empowered before an empowererenters, so is there in this village
on the ground where they're working?
In forestry, let's say in Nepal, inforestry, is there something that's
(24:54):
empowering happening already or is itnot until some well-funded NGO enters the
space that now empowerment is happening?
So it's really interesting when we thinkabout that and we can think about that
when we were talking about other types ofconflicts in the space as well, or going
back to thinking about peace building.
Is there a capacity for peacebefore some outside peacemaker
(25:18):
comes in or something like that.
So again, thinking aboutkind of positionalities and
hierarchies all the time,
Laura May (25:24):
And so I'm wondering , I mean, from your work so far, do you think it's
possible in principle to tackle thesebig problems including social conflict
without taking on gender hierarchies?
Brianna Hernandez (25:37):
No, I don't.
I really don't.
I think I think gender permeates sodeeply, so much about all of the spaces
where we understand conflict to exist.
One in the lived experiences of people,but then also in the mindsets of
even the most well-meaning mediators,organizers, practitioners, there is some
(25:59):
bias that has to be constantly checked.
And we have to work on that.
We have to be conscious of it.
I know even coming into someof my dissertation work, right?
Thinking about gatekeepersin some of these communities.
So for example, in the D R C, you havethis really great project actually that
World Wildlife Fund is doing, wherethey're looking at um, teaching women
how to make sustainable cook stoves.
(26:20):
So reducing the amount of coaland reducing the amount of
deforestation that's happening.
But to get into these communities,you have to go through
gatekeepers, which are male.
And coming from a verywestern standpoint, you're
like, I don't like this.
You know, why do I haveto go through this?
Like, let's tear it all downand rebuild it differently, but.
(26:41):
You have to really think about the factthat, okay, this is my positionality.
This is how I understand whatempowerment or what gender
equality is supposed to look like.
But that's not necessarilythe understanding in the
community I'm looking at.
These women may not understand theirpositions to be lower or less than it
may be very much so that that's just.
That man's job as gatekeeper, right?
(27:01):
And I, as whatever position I holdsin this village as a woman, am
responsible for, education maybe.
And those things are bothreally important, but they're
just differently important in,they exist on different planes.
Um, So going back to thinking aboutindigenous structures and how not
everything needs to be a hierarchy, right?
We can exist on the same planedoing different things for a common
(27:24):
goal and still have respect forwhat the other person is doing.
So yeah, I think I genderis everywhere, right?
We can't, we can'tescape it, unfortunately.
We can't escape the binaries that exist.
We can't escape the fact that,I mean, in Spanish, right?
I'm sitting on a chair because achair is a household object and then
(27:44):
I have to say it's feminine because,you know, it's a passive object.
It doesn't do anything.
Our language is permeated with theidea of the feminine and the masculine.
So I don't really think that there.
Any practice or kind of policythat doesn't include gender, that
doesn't have a gender lens, or thatisn't gender aware, that really can
(28:07):
be transformative in these spaces.
Especially when you're thinking aboutspaces that are rocked already by some
form of oppressive force, whether thatbe, a missile was launched from here,
so we cleared out all your farmland.
Like there's oppression.
That's an oppressionthat's happening there.
But there's just so many layers of that,and I think gender always has to be one.
Laura May (28:28):
Hmm.
And is it then that gender alwayshas to be a lens or are there
specific actions we should be taken?
And I mean, I'm kind of wondering cuzfrom what you're saying, I'm hearing that.
We can work useful on gender withinour own societies and within our
own microcultures, but it might beinappropriate to do gender work elsewhere.
Brianna Hernandez (28:51):
I wouldn't say that I think it's inappropriate or not worth
doing gender work in other spaces.
I just think that's where we reallyneed to elevate local voices which is
another I mean, if we're thinking aboutfeminist methodologies, that's huge.
Is this elevation of.
The idea of what we consider an expert.
So an expert is not, you know, you or Ieither went through PhD programs, right?
(29:12):
An expert may be the woman whohas lived next to this particular
field for decades and knows thebest way to rotate these crops.
She is then the expert on this field.
And coming in with an environmental ngo.
I need to be able to say, well,okay, this local voice actually knows
more about this issue than I do.
(29:32):
And I think bringing in kind of thosefeminist methodologies into these spaces
and just being really open to conversationand open to not being the expert that
you might think that you are is how youare able to do that work and how you're
able to do something transformative.
Laura May (29:46):
You've actually just reminded me of an experience that I had.
At one point.
I went and spent a week with anindigenous group in the Colombian Amazon.
I have never been soconscious of my privilege.
I also never noticed how white I wasuntil I was swimming in the Amazon.
It just goes like, wow, I am a ghost.
Um, But I had this reallyinteresting experience where I
(30:08):
was there and, you know, you goand hang out with the locals and.
Some of the women in this particularcase are trying to show me how to weave.
Like it was basically likea friendship bracelet.
Right.
And I sucked at it.
Honestly, I was so bad at it.
And they, they were all laughing.
They're like, this is wayeasier than university.
I was like, you're sowrong, . This is way harder.
(30:29):
Like, you know, you'redefinitely the experts here.
And I think, but in that conversation itwas still mutual respect, I would say.
Because like, it wasn't a hierarchy.
It's like, oh, we'redoing different things.
And that's, that's totally fine and veryfunny in this case, cuz obviously I'm so
bad at weaving you, we don't even know.
Brianna Hernandez (30:48):
That's amazing.
Yeah, exactly.
You know you came in as the expert ofuniversity, like let everybody know how
the bureaucracy in your school works.
Like this is what I had to do.
Right.
But they definitely had the well listened.
Laura, that's looking likesomething I can't even explain
or describe to you right now.
So let me help you and that's ok.
(31:09):
And that is a feminist methodologylike that is what feminism
can bring to these spaces.
Not just academic spaces, but socialspaces and practitioner spaces is saying
like, we're all experts in differentthings and taking expert that term
off of the pedestal that we've put iton, and not making it so exclusive.
(31:29):
Right.
Kind of just broadening our understandingof which kind of knowledges are important.
And I think that sometimes that'sthe difficult part of bridging
spaces, whether it's an academicspace into a practitioner space or a
practitioner space into a local space.
Is that understanding.
We are co-producingknowledge at that point.
(31:50):
And all of these different kinds ofknowledges are all important if we are
going to get at roots of conflict or ifwe are gonna reconcile different groups.
So yeah, I think that feministmethodology, like gender lenses, yes.
Laura May (32:06):
As, as I'm sure you've gathered, I'm all
about the gender lens as well.
But I mean, one thing I'm wondering asyou're saying this though, cause you're
talking about taking, being an expert offthe pedestal, I mean, that's also the kind
of thing that anti-vaxxers say, right?
They're like, oh, what do these doctorsknow them in their fancy university?
I have my own knowledge, and sowhere do I actually draw the lion?
(32:26):
And I'm just wondering, I mean,maybe it's just that we take experts
off the pedestal, but expertiseis still something to appreciate.
Brianna Hernandez (32:33):
Yes.
No, I think that wording is a lot better.
Yes.
I think that, and I think that'swhy I kept backtracking to kind of
knowledges, right, that that bodiesof knowledges are still extremely
important and should be respected.
And you know, evidence basedlike this woman lived next
to this field for decades.
She has evidence that thisis the best crop rotation.
I think having evidence based bodiesof knowledge and a mutual respect
(32:57):
for that production of knowledge andunderstanding that knowledge can be
produced from various positionalitiesis what's really important.
You don't need to be in our ivorytower of academ to have specific
knowledge about this field that thiswoman has lived next to for decades.
(33:17):
So I think it's more taking intocontext, this evidence-based pool
of knowledge is something that'sbigger than we might think it is.
But not necessarily that itshould be taken on a whim.
This is, you know, again, evidencebased, backed by narratives and histories
but that is also knowledge, right.
That's important.
It may not be in a textbook, but theseoral stories about, planting a certain
(33:40):
bean next to a certain type of cornbecause they are friends that has meaning.
There's something therethat's important, right?
That friendship has fed generations.
Laura May (33:49):
So cute actually.
. Brianna Hernandez: right.
love that.
It's like a little cute book.
Yeah.
Brianna Hernandez (33:54):
Yeah, but you know, those things, those things still matter
and that's still knowledge and that'sstill worth sharing and that's still worth
building programs and policies around.
So, so yeah, I think let's keepexpertise and something that's important
and matters but maybe just change,but we understand an expert to be.
Laura May (34:10):
I mean, the last thing I wanted is for us to finish this podcast
and firstly, you know, have allegations.
You were kidnapping, panders,and also against vaccines.
Like that's not the
situation we wanted.
So thank you for clarifying.
Brianna Hernandez (34:21):
Yeah, of course.
Laura May (34:23):
And so how then can we ensure that inclusion in conflicts
or otherwise isn't being done ina quick fix way to use your words.
Brianna Hernandez (34:33):
Yeah.
Um, ,, I think I'm gonna goback to feminist methodologies.
Wendy Hark actually has a recentedited volume that talks about
using feminist methodologies.
And it's cool because she hasPhD and MA students who are
using these, talking about it.
So I think kind of being okaywith practicing methodologies
(34:55):
is really important.
I think elevating voices is extremelyimportant, and we wanna do this in a
way that isn't so kind of the battlewe have, right, is coming into these
spaces, into these conversations andnot being like, oh yeah, I am the only
source of empowerment, or I am the savior.
Right?
We wanna do away with those verypatriarchal savior complexes.
(35:16):
So it's really about kind of creatingspaces where we can talk and where
we can have women's voices ringclear, and where we actually take
those things into consideration.
So we have instances and reportsof doing this in a bad way, right?
Of saying, okay, here's three chairsat this this table, we're gonna
talk about peace, put three localwomen in there and like, move on.
(35:39):
We did this gender thing, rather thangetting an actual idea of, oh well
this woman was involved in negotiating,getting this set of cows back from
this side of the conflict line.
So she obviously has some skills here.
She's the type of person to have atthis table, but actually being willing
to do this kind of research and workand taking individual identities.
(36:02):
Seriously.
And individual skills seriously.
And then when women speak, not the nodpolitely and you know, oh yeah, great,
cute, but taking those actual wordscoming out of women's mouths seriously.
And I think it's really about.
Yeah, those voices, including thosevoices in a way that is actually
(36:23):
meaningful and transformative.
But also just creating spaces where,and I know like buzzword safe spaces,
ill cringe, but like reality, you
Laura May (36:33):
Tell us what you really think
Brianna Hernandez (36:36):
you know, like creating spaces that are actually
safe before sharing information.
But I.
Even be before you can do any of thatthough it has to be a mindset shift.
It has to be a, maybe not a burningof the patriarchy, cuz we're
not there yet, but we have to
Laura May (36:56):
One of my T-shirts would say otherwise,
Brianna Hernandez (36:58):
Well, I mean, when we got on Zoom, my, my Zoom
screen says, you know, destroythe patriarchy, not the planet.
That's life model right there.
Laura May (37:05):
Yeah.
I mean, that could be the nathe name of your dissertation.
Brianna Hernandez (37:09):
Okay.
That was brilliant.
Just that might, yeah.
Laura May (37:13):
you.
Brianna Hernandez (37:16):
acknowledgement that one time Laura told me
the title of my dissertation,
Laura May (37:20):
Yes.
Brianna Hernandez (37:20):
but no
seriously.
Laura May (37:22):
Yep.
Brianna Hernandez (37:22):
Right.
That mindset of saying like, you know,all identities matter and we don't have
to continue to perpetuate a society wheregender exists on this hierarchy, where
we only understand gender to exist ina binary where sex and gender mean the
same thing where gender is synonymouswith women and girls like these ares.
Such problematic practices, but youhave to at this point, and it, and
(37:46):
it's sad to say, but you have tomake that individual decision and
choice to say, yeah, no, not me.
I'm not going to approach this that way.
And I think, for practitioners workingin the conflict space, like that is a
decision they have to make going in.
Are my policies just my questionnaire,just my questionnaire when I'm
going in and talking to people.
Does this account for all of thesedifferent forms of violence and identity
(38:07):
that could have happened in this space?
And maybe that means we have to be moreimaginative and creative which I think
the world could benefit from anyways.
Laura May (38:14):
Yes,
Brianna Hernandez (38:15):
So maybe it's, maybe that's what it's, maybe it's a, like a
shift then that has to happen in mindset.
That has to mean that we are all willingto be a little bit more creative.
Laura May (38:28):
Look, Brianna, thank you so much for joining me today.
I've been fantastic as I knew it would be.
And I'm glad I harassed you onTwitter until you agreed to come on
Brianna Hernandez: Thank goodness, I'm too. (38:36):
undefined
I had a great time.
Thank you.
Laura May (38:42):
Of course.
And so for those who are interestedin learning more about your
work, where can they find you?
Brianna Hernandez (38:48):
Um, So Twitter is always a great space, so it
underscore Bree Hernandez one.
Also if you just type in Brianna andHernandez in Google Safari, whatever
it is you use, my website will pop up.
Don't judge the very oldprofessional picture that is
on the on the home screen.
I have not taken a new one.
. Laura May: I'm sure that'll be, they'll write you off.
You know, they'll hear this podcast go,wow, she knows what she's talking about.
(39:11):
Then they'll see your photoand go, you know what,
Like, oh no, never.
Maybe not no.
But yeah, the website has linksto teaching resources publications,
and all of my various social media,which does yes, sometimes end up
populated with pandas or manatees orwhatever, you know, animal of the day,
Laura May (39:31):
Yeah.
I mean, no one's gonnacomplain about that.
So, you know, you, you scare them away.
The professional photo, youbring them back in with the pans.
So I think
it's still balanced out . Awesome.
Well thank you again andfor everyone else until now.
Next time, this is Laura May with aconflict tipping podcast from media.com.
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping Podcast for mediate.com,
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and today Ihave with me Brianna Hernandez, who is
a PhD candidate of Florida InternationalUniversity Committee member for the
Women's International League for Peaceand Freedom, and a WWF Panda Ambassador,
(00:32):
which is my personal favorite of.
She is interested in language,power, conflict, environmentalism,
and overcoming false binary.
So welcome, Brianna.
Brianna Hernandez (00:43):
Hi, Laura.
Thanks for having me.
Laura May (00:45):
So happy to have you here.
I feel like we're gonnahave a fun episode.
Because we've actually met before as well.
I feel like this is going to be a thingwhere it's just Laura speaks with people
she has met at different conferences,
Brianna Hernandez (00:56):
I love that.
Laura May (00:57):
Yeah, which is totally fine.
But yeah, I, I first saw youpresenting your work at North ISA
Northeast, I think in Providence.
And I remember being on the edge of myseat and wanting to do like fist pumps
and stuff, cuz you were talking aboutgender and conflict and I was so into it.
So I'm very happy I've got you toanswer all of my questions today.
And so the first question I want to askyou is more of a trailing sentence as is
(01:24):
right for academia, and that is to binaryor not to binary because I understand
you're all about binaries and whetherthey should or should not be used.
Brianna Hernandez (01:34):
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
Trailing sentence.
We love that.
Well, I mean, for one, just binariesin general, really at the center of all
the different kinds of work that I do.
So when we're talking about binaries,we're talking about really just, you know,
having systems that only recognize thatthings exist on two accesses, right?
You either are a yes, no male female.
(01:55):
There's nothing that really is gray.
There's nothing in the in between,but all the exciting things
happen in the in between, right?
We exist in the in between.
So kind of simple answer would alwaysbe, you know, not the binary, right?
Because that's what a lot of my work isdoing is trying to complicate that story.
Also when we're thinking aboutgender binaries, we're talking
(02:15):
about two distinct opposites whichalso just don't really make sense
in the real world that we live in.
And that tend to lead to a lot ofhierarchy, a lot of oppression.
But to complicate things like alittle bit too binary can also
be useful when we're talking in.
Because it is true that peopleof different identities that
exist in different positions doexperience the world in different
(02:36):
ways, and they're impacted by.
Events by conflict events, byenvironmental disasters in different ways.
So understanding the world and eventsas gendered does help us a lot of times
to work on conflict reconciliation,to work on reporting mechanisms, even.
(02:57):
So.
Sometimes the binary can be helpfulin practice as long as we understand
it as something that is artificial andas something that we're only using to
meet some type of transformative goal.
Laura May (03:10):
It makes total sense.
Because what I hear you saying is that onthe one hand, these binaries are made up.
On the other hand, we need to understandthat people act as though they were
real, and that gives them a differentlived experience depending on.
Which position they occupy.
Right?
But what I hear sort of talking aboutnow when you related gender specifically
(03:31):
to hierarchies is it reminds you of thatidea of dominated culture, which I think
might have been Jackson Cats originally.
This idea of not only is therea hierarchy, but one person has
power and the other person doesn't.
So it's dominant and submissive.
So in your work, how does this genderhierarchy specifically relate to conflict?
Brianna Hernandez (03:52):
Yeah.
I mean there's so many exampleshere, but when, so when you said
dominator culture, I'm thinkingthen about fear and force, right?
How does fear and forceplay out in these spaces?
How are they employed and weaponized?
Um, So I look a lot at sexualand gender-based violence
in in conflict spaces.
And right.
We can take that in two ways.
(04:13):
We can think about kind of internationalconflicts or ethnic conflicts or
things that we would consider verypolitical, very international relations.
Right.
But we also see these narrativesplay out in the domestic space.
So you have a lot ofdomestic violence literature.
Even that is also looking at, youknow, the role of fear and force
at home in the private sphere.
So I think something that's importanthere, and something that gender lets us do
(04:35):
when we apply that as a lens is to look athow violence is conceptualized and then
used across public and private spaces.
When we think about conflict and howviolence is not just one thing, right?
If I punch someone, weknow that is violent.
But also if, for example, in a domesticspace, if I'm in control of your finances
and you cannot go to the grocery storewithout my, okay, that is a form of.
(05:00):
In the same way, well, in a differentway, but kind of in the same lane.
If we think about this in amore political sense, right?
If you are a prisoner in a village, Ihave taken over your village and I say
that you are not allowed to interactwith your family unless I say that you are
allowed to interact with your family, thatis also still violence and it's a very
(05:20):
gendered form of violence, if I separatemothers and children, for example.
So I think.
Something that a gender lens reallydoes that's important when we're thinking
about fear and about force is allow usto talk across spaces, which allows us
to connect experiences across realms,which I think is extremely important.
But it also lets us kind of complicateand problematized fear and force.
(05:42):
Right?
So kind of general narratives are usually,well I am a woman so I must fear you
are a man, so you must force, but usingkind of a gendered lens, using feminist
theories, we're able to really complicatethat idea and say, well, maybe fear and.
Is not just a person that doesthese things, but it's a process
and maybe that process can existacross this non-binary spectrum.
(06:06):
And people who exist at all places on thatspectrum can act as the force or as the
person who is fearful in those situations.
So I think it just really, it lets uscomplicate kind of what is dominance?
What is violence in the conflictspace, whether that's a domestic
space or a more political space.
Laura May (06:25):
And so it sounds like this lens and this problematization
actually really helps, serves, asyou mentioned, the domestic space.
So for example, understanding that men canbe victims of domestic violence and have
forced supplied against them, as opposedto always seeing it the other way around.
In a recent episode, I recorded withLaura EMEA of Conciliation Resources,
there was a bit of a stress upon peacebuilding processes, being inclusive as it
(06:49):
relates to genders and other binaries, butyou've actually written a paper, which is
called sexual abuse in UN peacekeeping.
The problem of viewingWomen as a Quick Fix.
So how do we know that womenare being seen as a quick fix in
this kind of context, and alsowhat problems does that cause?
Brianna Hernandez (07:07):
Sure.
So let me preface by, there is somereally great work, academically
and on the practitioner side of theways that bringing women in has.
Built more transformativeand lasting piece.
I'm not saying that that's not a thing.
There are really useful formsof gender mainstreaming that
can be really transformative.
(07:27):
But then there are really basic formsof gender mainstreaming that are kind
of, let's throw in some women andstir the pot and see what happens and
call this gender mainstreaming andcall this a gendered peace building.
And that just does not work.
. It's not useful.
And that is historically, thekind of gender mainstreaming
that we see in un peacekeeping.
(07:47):
So how do we know that thisis viewed as a quick fix?
There's plenty of literature thatwe can go back to and look at.
Talking about kind of the development ofadding women into peacekeeping groups.
There's stats that tell you howmany women from each country, all of
these kinds of things are accessible.
But I think what's really telling is whenyou get these narratives and stories out
(08:09):
of the UN saying, oh yeah, we've done it.
We've gendered peacekeeping,we've done this great thing.
Now women and girls because of coursewomen and girls as a concept and, you
know, parenthesis always together, um
Laura May (08:22):
Totally unproblematic as well in every
Brianna Hernandez (08:23):
way
oh of right, of course.
Um, This is fine, but you know, we are.
We've created peacekeeping unitsthat hacked as protectors and
models for women and girls inthe zones that we're working in.
Right?
So when you have an institution that'sreally gung-ho and tooting their own horn
about something, and then you go in andyou look at the stats and you're like,
(08:45):
well, Something here is not adding up.
Right.
That's kind of where this came out ofwas the fact that you had an institution
that was so publicly proud of thetype of gender mainstreaming that they
were doing, that it's like, oh, cool.
Like what can we learn from this?
, well, we can learn that this isn'tthe way, actually to be doing this
kind of work Um, so I mean, for one,if you're looking at from the side of
(09:12):
these women who are peacekeepers, right?
You have this sort ofdouble, double burden.
So they're coming in as the protectorsof women and girls, as the people
who are supposed to be especiallyequipped to respond to the issues of
women and girls in local communities.
So you have them coming in like this,but then you also have these same women
who have to protect themselves on eachother from sexual and gender-based
(09:35):
violence in their own spaces from otherpeacekeepers, also from community members.
So we have this double work.
They're also still doing the whatevermission work that all the peacekeepers
are doing, and then they have the extra,well, "oh, we got a call and there's this
girl and she has to report this thing.
We have to send a woman".
Right, or this is, this is just your job.
(09:56):
And then you also have, which is whatwhat really made me angry actually, is you
have this language where you have thesewomen who are, you know there who are
doing this amazing thing in these localcontexts, but who are also supposed to
be babysitting their male counter parts.
You have this language and thesenarratives that say, well, when
we add more women to units, thenmaybe the men will behave better.
(10:18):
And there's just something sofundamentally wrong with that.
One, placing the burden on these womento babysit their male colleagues.
Two, thinking that just thepresence of women will be enough
to change an entire culture.
So we have also studies thatrelate this to within the military.
Oh, if we add women, does that meanthat we're changing the culture or
that we've just added them into aculture that's already hyper-masculine?
(10:42):
Right.
The same kind of language happenswithin peacekeeping units where it's,
well, are they babysitting or isthere something that happens where
now you actually just added a layerof protection or scapegoating for
men who are misbehaving, let's say.
So it's, it's really an interestingplace there because then you
can look at institutional.
(11:02):
Sociological dynamics within units,but then also how this is played out
in these zones that are trying toreconcile, they're trying to build
back that are recovering from conflict.
I think that answered your question.
I kind of got lost inmy own kinda rambling.
It's
Laura May (11:17):
No, it, it was fantastic.
And especially the point youmade about women are failing a
babysitting if their men misbehave.
It's ludicrous really.
Right.
Anyway, but I mean, notto be all, what about men?
But I do know you've done some researchon men as victims of sexualized
and sexual violence in conflict.
Cuz I saw you presenting about that at ic Northeast when I was in the, in my seat.
(11:40):
And so how does actuallyrelate to gender hierarchies?
I mean, what work haveyou actually done there?
Brianna Hernandez (11:45):
Yeah.
Um.
Actually, I think I might be able toanswer this better in telling a story.
So I was guest lecturing actuallyin one of my friend's classes and
we were talking about identities andI was there to talk about gender.
And one of the students, after a verylong kind of, I'm prefacing my question
with, I do not hate women and I'm allfor equality, says, well, what about men?
(12:09):
Because it's not all men.
And we hear not all menall the time, right?
So it was really interesting to watch somany of the, women identifying students
have facial reactions and like justbodily reactions to this comment, right?
And so I had to take a breath beforeI answered because I have all of these
women's students who are looking at melike, what are you gonna do about this?
(12:32):
And I had to, I guess, crush them a littlebit with not just jumping directly into
the defense they thought was needed.
And I had to say, you know,okay, like, I hear you, right?
It's not, we can say not allmen, and that is fair, and that
is a factual statement, right?
And then I asked for him tohold his question and let me
(12:54):
do like a little demonstration.
So I asked everyone a seriesof questions and to raise their
hands if they've ever experienced.
Whatever the question was, right?
Do you lock your car dooras soon as you get into it?
Do you hold your keys between yourhand when you're walking alone?
And he had to sit there and watchthe women in his class, people that
he spent the entire semester withraise their hand one after another.
(13:16):
So then this opened up the conversationfor talking about gendered experiences.
And I actually used the paperthat you're talking about as
my example to lead into that.
And I was like, you know,you're completely right.
It's not all men and what genderand what feminism allows us to do.
Not just to complicate hierarchiesand dismantle them, but also to
(13:36):
build them in different ways.
So what we did together then as a class isbuild kind of an opposite hierarchy from
the one we would generally talk about.
And we talked about femaleperpetrators of violence and we
talked about male victims of violence.
And I know some of the stories thatcame out of that Northeast paper
are quite graphic, so I'm not gonnago kind of into specifics there.
(13:56):
But I always turn to, for example, SierraLeone as a great example of where men have
experienced heinous sexualized violence,and it's so hard to even see reports of
this or to see how reconciliation wassupposed to happen in a way that was
actually helpful to these survivors.
(14:19):
Because we couldn't even codethings correctly because we
didn't have the languages.
And we didn't have in our questionnairesand reports are like, institutionally
we just don't have these questions inour reports that allow us to say, well,
this man who was forced at gunpointto commit an act of violence is also a
victim and not necessarily a perpetrator.
(14:40):
Our international definitionof rape at the I C C doesn't
allow us to name these things.
So what gender then does here and whatfeminist lenses and theories can do for
us is say that this entire population,because of the way we understand
hierarchy, is completely invisible.
And that's what that paper was tryingto do was unfreeze those narratives
(15:01):
to make more people visibile.
Is, how is it that we can talk aboutconflict reconciliation if we cannot
even talk about all of the differenttypes of lived experiences of the
people who went through that conflict?
Laura May (15:14):
I think there's something really powerful in what you've just said
because you really neatly illustratedthat this hierarchy of gender and
gender binaries in this case plays out.
On that domestic level and sort of the,the day-to-day lived experience of women
with, with car keys between your fingersand so on, and it plays out and has the
same kind of power in these deeply violentconflicts in a way that disadvantages
(15:38):
everybody, from the personal basisto the broader societal basis.
So probably good we're workingon taking it down, right?
And so let me even ask you about yourdoctoral research, because I understand
you're still using feminist lensesthere, but you are doing something with
environmentalism, to violence against men.
Brianna Hernandez (15:57):
It was quite different.
Yeah.
That was a journey.
So I kind of came into the PhD programvery much focused on the traditional
understanding of a violent conflict space.
So somewhere where different armedentities had tried to kill each other
and take over territory or whatever theirgoal may have been and kind of ended up.
(16:22):
Looking than more at human rights andhuman rights violations in those spaces.
And then very much interested in theinstitutions that are working there.
And throughout all of this,you know, gender and feminism,
was spread all the way through.
And then I was getting to the pointwhere, okay, well I really need to
pick a topic for my dissertation.
I can't just keep doingall of these things that I.
(16:44):
That I'm interested in and that Ilike to do just because I like them.
You know, I have to do something.
So I was trying to find the threads.
So who do I want to be as a scholar,as a scholar activist, as someone
who wants to work in spaces wheretransformative change can happen, right?
And human security, human rights andfeminism, we're always that nexus.
(17:05):
That's where it all comes backto, for me, is really complicating
hierarchies and identities and reallylooking at the role that language
plays in all of those spaces.
And then as I.
I was continuing kind ofreading and looking at this.
I got my activism side.
So you mentioned likethe Panda Ambassadors.
I'm extremely involved with World'sWildlife Fund and I started noticing
that within that space we startedhaving conversations about gender
(17:29):
and about identity and how thesethings play out in conservation
or don't play out in conservation.
And I was like, I wonder.
And because, you know, cynical,because, you know, I come from the
looking at the conflict space, I'mlike, Hmm, how much of this is a lie?
Like, oh, how, how deep
Laura May (17:45):
I love that it's all lies
Brianna Hernandez (17:48):
um,
which I probably sounds pretty terrible,but, you know, I'm like, like I'm
looking for things to be angry about.
Right?
But no, I just really like how deepis this depth of commitment, you know?
And so then I started to realize, Allof this, all of these organizations,
NGOs different institutionalentities working in this comfort
conservation space are now all of asudden women's rights activists too.
(18:10):
And I was like, wait a second.
When did we marry, you know,environmentalism with women's equality?
Like, how exactly did this happen?
When did it happen?
Whose ideal was this?
Is it working?
Does it mean something on the ground?
So these questions started coming outand then after a lot of reading and
back and forth with my major professor,I've arrived at the point where my
(18:34):
dissertation then is looking at.
Hierarchies and identities andthe construction of gender and
the construction of brightnessentity that is women and girls
within the conservation space.
So still looking at human rights, stilllooking at kind of that human security
thread when we're thinking aboutenvironmental degradation and disaster
belief, but very much questioningstill identity and hierarchy, right?
(18:57):
So like where do these things happen?
How are they happening?
. And is this transformative at all?
Like, is adding gender, is thisa ad gender and stir like with
peacekeeping, or is there somethingmore meaningful that's going on
here and what can we learn from it?
I don't know yet.
And that's what I'mexcited to keep looking at.
Is there a thing that could existthat is a truly, you know non
(19:20):
essentialist feminist environmental?
Hopefully, maybe I guess we'll findout when I write this dissertation,
, but, that's kind of where I ended up.
So definitely just still withthe hierarchies, still with
construction of gender issomething that's really important.
But I guess like the, the environmentjust kind of added in from my more
activist side is where that came from.
Laura May (19:42):
I had this vision of you with pandas in the jungle,
like, but , you know, getting
Brianna Hernandez (19:48):
be amazing.
Laura May (19:51):
Yeah, so you, you're there with your panders, we're
talking about gender, like I reallyhave his vision to be doing this.
Like
Brianna Hernandez (19:58):
that's, that would be amazing.
Can we have a circle of pandas whilewe discuss dismantling patriarchy?
Because that would Yes,
Laura May (20:06):
Oh my god.
Brianna Hernandez (20:07):
please.
Laura May (20:08):
I mean, I feel like in the interim I would take a circle of
puppies, I feel like that's moreeasy to accomplish than panders.
Like I hear at least one of theseis an endangered species . So I'm
not sure we can play with them
Brianna Hernandez (20:18):
true.
I think we could work with puppies.
Laura May (20:21):
Well good.
Cause I feel like otherwise,the WWF will listen to this and
be like, we can't let her near
Brianna Hernandez (20:25):
Yeah.
Wait a second.
Hold on.
We might need to investigate this further.
I think Laura Andre are planning onlike kidnapping some pandas for this
circle and they're talking about.
Laura May (20:38):
Well, I mean, I dunno how many panties there are in Florida.
I'm pretty sure therearen't any in Belgium.
So, you know, we're a long way fromrealizing this plan is what I'm saying,
Brianna Hernandez (20:46):
Yes.
Laura May (20:47):
tomorrow just yet.
Oh my goodness.
And so, you've said that you'regonna find out about the gender
aspect of environmentalism.
And it's certainly something I'veencountered a couple of times
before, especially in conjunctionwith this dominated culture idea.
I think it's just because, like I followthis one particular Twitter stream, which
is all about it, and they're like, well,yeah, you know, in the same way we have
these hierarchies where it's okay formen to dominate women Also, it's okay
(21:11):
for humans to dominate the environment,
right?
No one can see this because ofthe podcast, but bring this here.
Like, yes, this is what it's all about,
Brianna Hernandez (21:24):
Yes.
No, that's just so important and it'sactually, I'm pulling a lot from, I got
really lucky with one of my advisorswho also does indigenous studies,
but I'm looking so much at indigenousliterature on this, on sovereignty,
on reciprocity, on this connectionbetween, I'm gonna use the word
consumption because that, I mean, at thebasely, like that's what it really is.
This consumption of boththe feminine, whatever we
(21:47):
understand is the feminine and.
The consumption of the planet andthe links there, and then even the
violence that we think it's okayto do then on the planet and on
whatever we consider the feminine.
Right.
They're so intertwined and I thinkindigenous communities have just so much
knowledge and so much to say about this.
So yeah, I'm pulling so muchfrom there and learning so much.
(22:10):
But yeah, I think that's so importantthat kind of understand and I mean,
where does this mother Earth, right?
Why is earth a.
Laura May (22:16):
Yeah, I was gonna ask, cause I mean, do you see that in the indigenous
literature you're working on as well?
Is it also a mother ora feminine idea There?
Brianna Hernandez (22:23):
In many communities it is, but what I think is really
important in thinking and when we'retalking about that, is the fact that
these are also communities where,sure, maybe jobs were separate, right?
Or you have certain genderedroles when it comes to jobs, but
these are also communities where.
Their conceptions of genderare not binary, right?
You have so many genders,you have so many sexualities.
(22:45):
And also just because you are doing whatmay be considered, you know, a woman's
work, this isn't placed on some hierarchythat's lower than whatever the man's work
is and whatever it is that they're doing.
This is something thatexists in a circle, right?
It's reciprocal everyone is doing forthe community, and it doesn't put you
on this higher playing field because.
(23:06):
, you're, you're doing the fishingrather than I don't know, weaving
a basket or whatever it is.
Which I think is just so amazingand so useful and something that the
rest of us have forgotten somewhere.
And we've somehow, I think there'sjust something in there about our
understandings of oppression of theplanet, exploitation of the planet, and
then oppression, exploitation of women.
(23:28):
And I think.
. Yeah.
Even like that mother of earth language.
But I think that there's a way tobe able to say, you know, maybe the
planet does need some mothering, right?
And maybe that's okay, but maybethat doesn't have to mean that it's
somehow less than the fathering,whatever the fathering of the planet
would be or something like that.
Which is also a really interesting kindof thread when we're talking about on the
(23:49):
ground practice when it comes to bringing.
Gender or women's empowerment andempowerment is the buzzword right now.
You know, development went throughthat stage where they love to say the
word empowerment, and now we have likekind of the sustainable community,
love to say the word empowerment.
Laura May (24:06):
I'm guilty of using it all the time as well.
I'm like, have I empowered people today?
It's, it's very cheesy,
Brianna Hernandez (24:12):
But sometimes it's really useful.
Right.
And, and I like that.
You know, have you, haveyou empowered someone today?
Have you somehow provided them withsome type of resource or something that
they can then use to lift themselves up?
Right.
But then it begs the questionof empowerment, right?
If someone is being empowered,someone's an empowerer, and what
does that positionality say?
Who gets to be the empowerer?
(24:33):
And is there empowerment?
Whatever your understandingof empowerment may be.
For example, I really like AndreaCornwell's work there, but is there
an empowered before an empowererenters, so is there in this village
on the ground where they're working?
In forestry, let's say in Nepal, inforestry, is there something that's
(24:54):
empowering happening already or is itnot until some well-funded NGO enters the
space that now empowerment is happening?
So it's really interesting when we thinkabout that and we can think about that
when we were talking about other types ofconflicts in the space as well, or going
back to thinking about peace building.
Is there a capacity for peacebefore some outside peacemaker
(25:18):
comes in or something like that.
So again, thinking aboutkind of positionalities and
hierarchies all the time,
Laura May (25:24):
And so I'm wondering , I mean, from your work so far, do you think it's
possible in principle to tackle thesebig problems including social conflict
without taking on gender hierarchies?
Brianna Hernandez (25:37):
No, I don't.
I really don't.
I think I think gender permeates sodeeply, so much about all of the spaces
where we understand conflict to exist.
One in the lived experiences of people,but then also in the mindsets of
even the most well-meaning mediators,organizers, practitioners, there is some
(25:59):
bias that has to be constantly checked.
And we have to work on that.
We have to be conscious of it.
I know even coming into someof my dissertation work, right?
Thinking about gatekeepersin some of these communities.
So for example, in the D R C, you havethis really great project actually that
World Wildlife Fund is doing, wherethey're looking at um, teaching women
how to make sustainable cook stoves.
(26:20):
So reducing the amount of coaland reducing the amount of
deforestation that's happening.
But to get into these communities,you have to go through
gatekeepers, which are male.
And coming from a verywestern standpoint, you're
like, I don't like this.
You know, why do I haveto go through this?
Like, let's tear it all downand rebuild it differently, but.
(26:41):
You have to really think about the factthat, okay, this is my positionality.
This is how I understand whatempowerment or what gender
equality is supposed to look like.
But that's not necessarilythe understanding in the
community I'm looking at.
These women may not understand theirpositions to be lower or less than it
may be very much so that that's just.
That man's job as gatekeeper, right?
(27:01):
And I, as whatever position I holdsin this village as a woman, am
responsible for, education maybe.
And those things are bothreally important, but they're
just differently important in,they exist on different planes.
Um, So going back to thinking aboutindigenous structures and how not
everything needs to be a hierarchy, right?
We can exist on the same planedoing different things for a common
(27:24):
goal and still have respect forwhat the other person is doing.
So yeah, I think I genderis everywhere, right?
We can't, we can'tescape it, unfortunately.
We can't escape the binaries that exist.
We can't escape the fact that,I mean, in Spanish, right?
I'm sitting on a chair because achair is a household object and then
(27:44):
I have to say it's feminine because,you know, it's a passive object.
It doesn't do anything.
Our language is permeated with theidea of the feminine and the masculine.
So I don't really think that there.
Any practice or kind of policythat doesn't include gender, that
doesn't have a gender lens, or thatisn't gender aware, that really can
(28:07):
be transformative in these spaces.
Especially when you're thinking aboutspaces that are rocked already by some
form of oppressive force, whether thatbe, a missile was launched from here,
so we cleared out all your farmland.
Like there's oppression.
That's an oppressionthat's happening there.
But there's just so many layers of that,and I think gender always has to be one.
Laura May (28:28):
Hmm.
And is it then that gender alwayshas to be a lens or are there
specific actions we should be taken?
And I mean, I'm kind of wondering cuzfrom what you're saying, I'm hearing that.
We can work useful on gender withinour own societies and within our
own microcultures, but it might beinappropriate to do gender work elsewhere.
Brianna Hernandez (28:51):
I wouldn't say that I think it's inappropriate or not worth
doing gender work in other spaces.
I just think that's where we reallyneed to elevate local voices which is
another I mean, if we're thinking aboutfeminist methodologies, that's huge.
Is this elevation of.
The idea of what we consider an expert.
So an expert is not, you know, you or Ieither went through PhD programs, right?
(29:12):
An expert may be the woman whohas lived next to this particular
field for decades and knows thebest way to rotate these crops.
She is then the expert on this field.
And coming in with an environmental ngo.
I need to be able to say, well,okay, this local voice actually knows
more about this issue than I do.
(29:32):
And I think bringing in kind of thosefeminist methodologies into these spaces
and just being really open to conversationand open to not being the expert that
you might think that you are is how youare able to do that work and how you're
able to do something transformative.
Laura May (29:46):
You've actually just reminded me of an experience that I had.
At one point.
I went and spent a week with anindigenous group in the Colombian Amazon.
I have never been soconscious of my privilege.
I also never noticed how white I wasuntil I was swimming in the Amazon.
It just goes like, wow, I am a ghost.
Um, But I had this reallyinteresting experience where I
(30:08):
was there and, you know, you goand hang out with the locals and.
Some of the women in this particularcase are trying to show me how to weave.
Like it was basically likea friendship bracelet.
Right.
And I sucked at it.
Honestly, I was so bad at it.
And they, they were all laughing.
They're like, this is wayeasier than university.
I was like, you're sowrong, . This is way harder.
(30:29):
Like, you know, you'redefinitely the experts here.
And I think, but in that conversation itwas still mutual respect, I would say.
Because like, it wasn't a hierarchy.
It's like, oh, we'redoing different things.
And that's, that's totally fine and veryfunny in this case, cuz obviously I'm so
bad at weaving you, we don't even know.
Brianna Hernandez (30:48):
That's amazing.
Yeah, exactly.
You know you came in as the expert ofuniversity, like let everybody know how
the bureaucracy in your school works.
Like this is what I had to do.
Right.
But they definitely had the well listened.
Laura, that's looking likesomething I can't even explain
or describe to you right now.
So let me help you and that's ok.
(31:09):
And that is a feminist methodologylike that is what feminism
can bring to these spaces.
Not just academic spaces, but socialspaces and practitioner spaces is saying
like, we're all experts in differentthings and taking expert that term
off of the pedestal that we've put iton, and not making it so exclusive.
(31:29):
Right.
Kind of just broadening our understandingof which kind of knowledges are important.
And I think that sometimes that'sthe difficult part of bridging
spaces, whether it's an academicspace into a practitioner space or a
practitioner space into a local space.
Is that understanding.
We are co-producingknowledge at that point.
(31:50):
And all of these different kinds ofknowledges are all important if we are
going to get at roots of conflict or ifwe are gonna reconcile different groups.
So yeah, I think that feministmethodology, like gender lenses, yes.
Laura May (32:06):
As, as I'm sure you've gathered, I'm all
about the gender lens as well.
But I mean, one thing I'm wondering asyou're saying this though, cause you're
talking about taking, being an expert offthe pedestal, I mean, that's also the kind
of thing that anti-vaxxers say, right?
They're like, oh, what do these doctorsknow them in their fancy university?
I have my own knowledge, and sowhere do I actually draw the lion?
(32:26):
And I'm just wondering, I mean,maybe it's just that we take experts
off the pedestal, but expertiseis still something to appreciate.
Brianna Hernandez (32:33):
Yes.
No, I think that wording is a lot better.
Yes.
I think that, and I think that'swhy I kept backtracking to kind of
knowledges, right, that that bodiesof knowledges are still extremely
important and should be respected.
And you know, evidence basedlike this woman lived next
to this field for decades.
She has evidence that thisis the best crop rotation.
I think having evidence based bodiesof knowledge and a mutual respect
(32:57):
for that production of knowledge andunderstanding that knowledge can be
produced from various positionalitiesis what's really important.
You don't need to be in our ivorytower of academ to have specific
knowledge about this field that thiswoman has lived next to for decades.
(33:17):
So I think it's more taking intocontext, this evidence-based pool
of knowledge is something that'sbigger than we might think it is.
But not necessarily that itshould be taken on a whim.
This is, you know, again, evidencebased, backed by narratives and histories
but that is also knowledge, right.
That's important.
It may not be in a textbook, but theseoral stories about, planting a certain
(33:40):
bean next to a certain type of cornbecause they are friends that has meaning.
There's something therethat's important, right?
That friendship has fed generations.
Laura May (33:49):
So cute actually.
. Brianna Hernandez: right.
love that.
It's like a little cute book.
Yeah.
Brianna Hernandez (33:54):
Yeah, but you know, those things, those things still matter
and that's still knowledge and that'sstill worth sharing and that's still worth
building programs and policies around.
So, so yeah, I think let's keepexpertise and something that's important
and matters but maybe just change,but we understand an expert to be.
Laura May (34:10):
I mean, the last thing I wanted is for us to finish this podcast
and firstly, you know, have allegations.
You were kidnapping, panders,and also against vaccines.
Like that's not the
situation we wanted.
So thank you for clarifying.
Brianna Hernandez (34:21):
Yeah, of course.
Laura May (34:23):
And so how then can we ensure that inclusion in conflicts
or otherwise isn't being done ina quick fix way to use your words.
Brianna Hernandez (34:33):
Yeah.
Um, ,, I think I'm gonna goback to feminist methodologies.
Wendy Hark actually has a recentedited volume that talks about
using feminist methodologies.
And it's cool because she hasPhD and MA students who are
using these, talking about it.
So I think kind of being okaywith practicing methodologies
(34:55):
is really important.
I think elevating voices is extremelyimportant, and we wanna do this in a
way that isn't so kind of the battlewe have, right, is coming into these
spaces, into these conversations andnot being like, oh yeah, I am the only
source of empowerment, or I am the savior.
Right?
We wanna do away with those verypatriarchal savior complexes.
(35:16):
So it's really about kind of creatingspaces where we can talk and where
we can have women's voices ringclear, and where we actually take
those things into consideration.
So we have instances and reportsof doing this in a bad way, right?
Of saying, okay, here's three chairsat this this table, we're gonna
talk about peace, put three localwomen in there and like, move on.
(35:39):
We did this gender thing, rather thangetting an actual idea of, oh well
this woman was involved in negotiating,getting this set of cows back from
this side of the conflict line.
So she obviously has some skills here.
She's the type of person to have atthis table, but actually being willing
to do this kind of research and workand taking individual identities.
(36:02):
Seriously.
And individual skills seriously.
And then when women speak, not the nodpolitely and you know, oh yeah, great,
cute, but taking those actual wordscoming out of women's mouths seriously.
And I think it's really about.
Yeah, those voices, including thosevoices in a way that is actually
(36:23):
meaningful and transformative.
But also just creating spaces where,and I know like buzzword safe spaces,
ill cringe, but like reality, you
Laura May (36:33):
Tell us what you really think
Brianna Hernandez (36:36):
you know, like creating spaces that are actually
safe before sharing information.
But I.
Even be before you can do any of thatthough it has to be a mindset shift.
It has to be a, maybe not a burningof the patriarchy, cuz we're
not there yet, but we have to
Laura May (36:56):
One of my T-shirts would say otherwise,
Brianna Hernandez (36:58):
Well, I mean, when we got on Zoom, my, my Zoom
screen says, you know, destroythe patriarchy, not the planet.
That's life model right there.
Laura May (37:05):
Yeah.
I mean, that could be the nathe name of your dissertation.
Brianna Hernandez (37:09):
Okay.
That was brilliant.
Just that might, yeah.
Laura May (37:13):
you.
Brianna Hernandez (37:16):
acknowledgement that one time Laura told me
the title of my dissertation,
Laura May (37:20):
Yes.
Brianna Hernandez (37:20):
but no
seriously.
Laura May (37:22):
Yep.
Brianna Hernandez (37:22):
Right.
That mindset of saying like, you know,all identities matter and we don't have
to continue to perpetuate a society wheregender exists on this hierarchy, where
we only understand gender to exist ina binary where sex and gender mean the
same thing where gender is synonymouswith women and girls like these ares.
Such problematic practices, but youhave to at this point, and it, and
(37:46):
it's sad to say, but you have tomake that individual decision and
choice to say, yeah, no, not me.
I'm not going to approach this that way.
And I think, for practitioners workingin the conflict space, like that is a
decision they have to make going in.
Are my policies just my questionnaire,just my questionnaire when I'm
going in and talking to people.
Does this account for all of thesedifferent forms of violence and identity
(38:07):
that could have happened in this space?
And maybe that means we have to be moreimaginative and creative which I think
the world could benefit from anyways.
Laura May (38:14):
Yes,
Brianna Hernandez (38:15):
So maybe it's, maybe that's what it's, maybe it's a, like a
shift then that has to happen in mindset.
That has to mean that we are all willingto be a little bit more creative.
Laura May (38:28):
Look, Brianna, thank you so much for joining me today.
I've been fantastic as I knew it would be.
And I'm glad I harassed you onTwitter until you agreed to come on
Brianna Hernandez: Thank goodness, I'm too. (38:36):
undefined
I had a great time.
Thank you.
Laura May (38:42):
Of course.
And so for those who are interestedin learning more about your
work, where can they find you?
Brianna Hernandez (38:48):
Um, So Twitter is always a great space, so it
underscore Bree Hernandez one.
Also if you just type in Brianna andHernandez in Google Safari, whatever
it is you use, my website will pop up.
Don't judge the very oldprofessional picture that is
on the on the home screen.
I have not taken a new one.
. Laura May: I'm sure that'll be, they'll write you off.
You know, they'll hear this podcast go,wow, she knows what she's talking about.
(39:11):
Then they'll see your photoand go, you know what,
Like, oh no, never.
Maybe not no.
But yeah, the website has linksto teaching resources publications,
and all of my various social media,which does yes, sometimes end up
populated with pandas or manatees orwhatever, you know, animal of the day,
Laura May (39:31):
Yeah.
I mean, no one's gonnacomplain about that.
So, you know, you, you scare them away.
The professional photo, youbring them back in with the pans.
So I think
it's still balanced out . Awesome.
Well thank you again andfor everyone else until now.
Next time, this is Laura May with aconflict tipping podcast from media.com.
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