January 12, 2023 • 41 mins
In this episode, Laura speaks with PhD candidate Adrian Wagner, whose research focuses on the integration of collective or community trauma. He is undertaking his PhD at the Universität Witten/Herdecke, is a research fellow at the European School of Governance, and works as a coach and facilitator for transformational leadership.
This episode is for you if you want to hear about:
- The long footprint of collective traumas (e.g. wars, covid)
- How we use narratives to make sense of the world (and when that goes wrong)
- Grieving and processing shared traumas
- Links between trauma histories in Germany and reactions to the invasion of Ukraine
- The need to gain emotional insight to tackle the world's big problems
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrian-wagner-blackforrestconsulting/
- Pocket Project on Collective Trauma Integration: https://pocketproject.org/about/what-is-collective-trauma-integration/
- Research report: https://pocketproject.org/collective-trauma-democracy/
- Publication: https://publications.iass-potsdam.de/pubman/faces/ViewItemOverviewPage.jsp?itemId=item_6002593_3
- About the report (in German): https://www.mehr-demokratie.de/projekte/deepening-democracy/forschungsbericht?sword_list%5B0%5D=Trauma&sword_list%5B1%5D=and&sword_list%5B2%5D=democracy&no_cache=1
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura May (00:11):
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping podcast from mediate.com,
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and today Ihave with me Adrian Vagner, research
Fellow at the European School ofGovernance in the fairytale esque
Black Forest PhD researcher lookinginto collective trauma integration and
(00:33):
who describes himself as occasionallytrespassing into the wild fields of art.
So welcome Adrian.
Adrian Wagner (00:40):
Yeah.
Thank you very much, Laura.
Great to see you, and I'm very gladto be here with you on this podcast.
Laura May (00:47):
I'm very happy to have you here now for those who are listening.
I actually met Adrian, we just realizedit was seven years ago, which has
made us feel both unnecessarily oldbecause we were doing a European
council meeting, which is theEurope nerd version of the Model un.
And so it's probably no surprise beingthe nerds that we apparently are, that
(01:07):
we both ended up in doctoral programs,
so then speaking of your PhD,what actually is it about?
Like what led you toresearch collective trauma?
Adrian Wagner (01:19):
Good question.
So basically, I think to answer thequestion I would go a long time back,
which is basically to my civil servicethat I did when I was around 20 and
it wasn't used in culture center.
And we had a lot of, you know, lecturesand workshops around Israel politics in
the current times, but also the German.
Jewish interaction, of course.
(01:39):
And back then, that was the first timeI heard about the, you know, the, the
collective wound, so to speak, or trauma.
Did a seminar with Kit.
She doesn't live anymore.
She did an interview withAlbert Spare, which was the
architect, you know, of Hitler.
That was quite impressive to meetthat lady who interviewed one of
those big, big Nazis, so to speak.
And I decided to go because of all thoseconflicting perspectives from the past
(02:04):
and from the present, I decided to goon a journey through the Middle East.
And since then, and especially because ofthat trip, I realized how conflicts are
first of all not simple, black and white.
And at the same time how easy it isto view them as black and white or
to get torn on one side or the other.
And the underlying topic for meseemed to be very clear that there is
(02:28):
something, like a collective woundingor collective trauma on a smaller
scale in families, but also on alarger scale in cultures or nations.
And I explored that topic.
I met Thomas Hubble and his wife, whoan Israeli artist on a conference.
Back then even there was even VanMc vCAN who researched Collective
Trauma as one of the first researcher.
And you know, that's howit carried on in a way.
(02:51):
And at some points in my life,you know, I wasn't focused on it.
At some points I let it go because Ithought like, well, this is just too much.
You know, like this, it,it's, it's a bit too much.
Like I focus on my personal stuff.
I focus on my career, but it keepscoming back and it kept coming back.
And at a certain point, that wasthe pocket project founded by Thomas
(03:12):
Hubble, who is in a way, I wouldsay like a spiritual teacher, but
also working with group processes.
A lot of shared work like GK therapy.
And he started with his wife, thepocket project, which was around
collective trauma integration.
And then they even started a PhD program,the Academy of Neuroscience, where they
(03:33):
wanted to research topics like that.
And I felt like, well, that's what Ialways trained about to be happening,
being flexible on my own and doingresearch on this weird intersection
of collective trauma meditation aswell as democracy or politics.
And yeah, that's where I jumpedinto the program and I said let's
research collective trauma integrationthrough the pocket project.
(03:56):
And here I am, four yearslater, but still going
Laura May (04:00):
Yep.
It's, it's the, the story of PhDs, right?
You know, you start and thenyou keep going until it's done.
So what kinds of collectivetraumas are we talking about?
Because you've mentioned one alreadyas far as you know, Germany and Israel,
Adrian Wagner (04:13):
yeah, so basically, the first question that we would need to be
clarifying is what is collective trauma?
Of course.
Right.
And to a certain extent, you could gointo definitions later because that's
be the struggle also of the PhD in thescientific work and to pinpoint that.
But as a metaphor, I think it worksvery well to explain a lot of the stuff
that is coming up in recent times.
(04:35):
Starting from the whole idea of patriarchyis connected deeply to collective trauma.
The whole idea like colonizationlike if you have colonization going
on for two, 300 years, I mean, thatcreates a certain culture and we
are all born in certain cultures.
And I think if you look backinto history with an open mind,
(04:55):
you discover major events.
I think our whole history is written.
By winners who defeated somebody, right.
So in a certain way, especially inEurope and especially for the German
context, it's pretty clear I think, ifyou look at the First World War at
the Second World War, but I think youprobably could go back even until this
(05:16):
30 year war and you still discover someof those scarves in the social tissue
or the cultural tissue, so to speak.
And it's kind of like a messywork to differentiate what is
what, because trauma has become,I think, quite popular as a term.
So you really need to be carefulfrom what position you look at it.
(05:37):
But I think when, when it comesto the pocket project, they did a
lot of great online trainings wherethey bring people together from
different cultural backgrounds, alsowithin one cultural background,
and then really ask that question.
So what, how would welook into our culture?
What are the blind spots?
What are the shadows?
What are the aspects we getheated talking about, right?
(05:58):
And in a certain way howThomas Hubel describes it.
Usually the things that youdon't see, but that affect our
culture and our interactions.
The things that are usuallynot on the table, that's where
the real stuff happens, right?
I mean, that's where wedon't want to look at.
And of course for a long timethat was slavery, that was colonial
(06:19):
colonialization to some extent.
I think that still is it.
And I mean he calls that thedark lake, like the parts of the
culture where we don't want to go orwhere the narratives somehow don't
really fit or somehow break apart.
They're fragmented.
Laura May (06:35):
As you're saying this, it's actually making me
think about Carl Yung, right?
And this idea of a shadow self as the theself we have to embrace to move forward.
I mean, I say that as someone who'snot very pro Carl Yung, but this is a
similar idea in some ways, right?
Adrian Wagner (06:48):
Yeah.
I mean, first of all, I mean, UNG isan interesting case but I mean there
is something that he framed as thecollective unconscious as well, that's.
Carl Youngs, of course, if you look from ascientific perspective, a bit problematic.
Or at least, at least, I wouldsay there's stuff out there or
or terms that he, that he coined.
(07:09):
So in that sense, yes.
But of course, definitely from ascientifics perspective I would say there,
there are other people that moved similaridea into the open, like recently,
Sharma Peter sing, they talk aboutgenerative social fields, for example.
And I think if you look at why wedon't have generative social fields,
I think a big part of it is that weare engaging in certain patterns or
(07:33):
in certain agreements, like to holdback what we don't want to feel or that
what we don't want to feel in public.
Laura May (07:40):
I actually just wanna take it back for a moment because
earlier you were talking aboutthis idea of cultural trauma.
You know, you mentioned going backto the 30 years war and so on, but
what I wanna know is, do we haveany evidence or suggestion that
cultures do get over these traumas?
Or do they change in some way?
Because it seems to me that, if culturesare just gathering traumas over time,
(08:02):
that eventually will be sort of paralyzedin some way, or super conflictual.
I mean, how do we get over these things?
Adrian Wagner (08:11):
That the, I guess that's the easiest question
in that whole discourse.
Right?
So first of all, on my research journey.
What came up for mewas first the question.
Okay, collective trauma seemsto make a lot of sense.
You know, like a lot of people killingeach other, so you have a lot of trauma.
Now if you look at the research,it's like an intersection
of different perspectives.
Yeah.
So if you have a psychologicalperspective, trauma is very
(08:32):
clearly defined as somethingthat is life-threatening.
That is a process.
But even within psychology, whoborrowed the term trauma, which
basically means in Greek wound, evenpsychology took that from medicine.
So when it comes to psychology,there's this whole evolution of what
trauma is and in a certain way, likethere are certain streams that take
(08:56):
the term trauma from a psychologicalsense and apply it to societies.
You have this whole idea oncollective processing of mass
individual traumas, or you havetransgenerational multi-generational
traumas you have mass traumatization.
So those are all terms that comemore from the field, that look from
(09:16):
the individual to the collective.
What you miss out or what the dangeris there is that often we simplify the
sociological and more systemic aspects.
So we look at society more as we look atindividuals and that doesn't work as well.
So on the other hand,Alexandra, he define.
Cultural trauma is a process whichis a group which does not need to
(09:39):
be directly affected by traumaticevents, but that perceives the trauma
as relevant because of a specificcultural and historical process.
So he argues that thisprocess permanently changes
the identity of the group.
Even if you don't have experience,the trauma of slavery or whatever.
There are other people even talking abouttrauma, politics and how that becomes
(10:01):
like in a identity politics, a term touse and also to be misused for power.
And at the same time, Van Alcan , put outthe term chosen trauma like events that
are long gone but held alive in cultures.
And at a certain point, ifeverybody has trauma, like what,
what's the point of the term, right?
There there's no sincerityleft in it anymore.
(10:22):
So, so in that sense if you wantto heal collective trauma, we
first need to establish is itactually a real thing, right?
And what I would say isyes, definitely it is.
And it's still very subtle ifwe are, because we are built
into that collective, right?
If we build into our collective,it's hard to see it, it's hard to
(10:43):
feel it because we grow up with it.
And the best definition inmy opinion that I've found
so far is by Angela Cooner.
She says that collective trauma isa traumatic event that has not been
processed within collective memory.
Laura May (11:03):
So as I understand it to make these different ideas of collective
trauma concrete, on the one hand we havethis individual physiological kind of
trauma, which is shared across society.
So if we look at Covid for instance,obviously it's happening now or it's
been happening, people are traumatized,they are dealing in different ways.
We can already see.
(11:24):
Changes in society is an outcome, andwho knows how long this will last for.
Right?
So that's sort of the, the one idea.
And as I understand it, the secondidea you've presented is related
to victim self identification.
Because I know that Tammy Jacob isin some fantastic work on this about
when you identify yourself as a victimand you come together in this idea
of shared victimhood, or it could beshared trauma, then you can politicize
(11:47):
that and use it to demand rights.
So have I understood that correctly?
These two different ideasof collective trauma?
Adrian Wagner (11:55):
Yes, roughly.
I would say so.
Definitely.
The important thing is, I guess,that, if you look at collective
trauma it's not enough to justinclude an individual perspective or.
A more collective perspective.
I think both don't go far enough.
We need to kind of bring it together andthat leads directly to more collective
memory sense making and narratives.
Laura May (12:15):
And so what actually is sense making the way you're using it?
Adrian Wagner (12:19):
So the sensemaking process is where you try to make sense out of a
situation, and it's very much, you know,constructing your own identity, right?
It's retrospective, like somethinghappens, you lost your keys, you go
out, and then you suddenly meet thelove of your life and you're saying,
ah, that's why I lost my keys.
So it's retrospective, it's notconnected to rationality usually always.
(12:42):
But it makes sense to you thatyou had to lose those keys.
Narratives are like the way wemake sense of the world, right?
So we tell stories andthat's how we make sense.
But stories are usually, I mean,that's the interesting part.
They need to make sense.
They don't need to be true.
And that's where it becomesinteresting, especially also when we
(13:03):
have unpleasant experiences, we createstories around them and sometimes how
can we integrate unpleasant experiencewithout, like getting rid of them.
And that relates of course, also thento collective trauma integration.
I think those are terms specifically,I think in a scientific context
where we start to be moreprecise, like as a metaphor.
(13:25):
I think collective trauma works well.
You know, everybody understandsthat, big earthquakes or uh,
sis in war, like all of thosethings create mass traumatization.
I mean that's understandable.
And yet at the same time, how canwe pinpoint and how can we work
to integrate collective trauma.
(13:45):
There's a lot of good studies out therethat when trauma occurs in individuals
now from a psychological perspective,your sense making of the world is damaged.
Like you suddenly don't see howthe world can make sense anymore.
Yeah.
So it's fragmented.
So there's also work starting howto integrate the experience and
(14:07):
how to start making sense againof the world together with others.
Because I think when you look atpost-traumatic growth, you know,
like Victor Frankl, very famous one,survived the concentration camps and.
There is a part in that where he saidlike, if you are able to place yourself in
the context where you understand why youpersecuted or why it happens, not that
(14:30):
that you're supposed to suffer, but ifyou're aware why it happens and you find
a certain kind of meaning and agency init, it can lead to post-traumatic growth.
And I think the sense-making aspect nowapplies not only to individuals, but that
can also apply to these traumatic eventsthat are restored in collective memory.
Laura May (14:53):
But I guess a big difference though between an individual experiencing
trauma and a collective experiencingtrauma is that perhaps individuals have
acceptable ways in which to grieve andto process and to see support, whereas
collective groups don't so much, right?
Adrian Wagner (15:08):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think that's the core point.
And that's also the work.
I think that with the Pocket project,for example, what they starting
to pioneer, what they starting toexplore, there's a collective trauma
integration process that they more fromexperiential data that they came up with.
I think there's one thing aroundremembering what happened, the
(15:29):
traditional remembering in cultureand, I grow up with a lot of
stories about the Holocaust andwhat we did back then in Germany.
But it's a total differencewhen, when you touched emotion,
And you suddenly feel what happens.
You suddenly feel there's a, a healthyhorror that you can experience if you
(15:52):
really feel into, well, that countrykilled 6 million Jews and many others.
So, I think to tap into those emotionsand to hold them creates a different
atmosphere that creates a differentkind of remembering and a different
kind of integration of these traumaticevents in our collective memory.
And if you don't do that, I have theimpression, or that's also some of the
(16:15):
thesis it affects when crisis come.
It affects our process, our democracies,for example now with the Ukraine war
and with the study we did, there werea lot of people that were triggered
by the war and where stories cameup that are related to the war.
I mean, even to some extent you couldeven argue, how Putin sold that war
(16:36):
is like he's fighting Nazis, right?
So there is what Vanek Wakincalls like a time collapse.
The recent events triggeredthe emotions of another time.
And those emotions are so real thatyou perceive the events as something
almost as threatening as in the past.
Laura May (16:55):
Mm.
Adrian Wagner (16:56):
But it's what happens is actually you collapse into the time.
You're thinking, okay,they're all Nazis now.
It's almost like time traveling.
So it in, in certain studies, likewhile we perceive time linear, we
can experience time very differently.
We can experience the past in the present.
Laura May (17:15):
Especially I guess, the people who are traumatized, right?
Adrian Wagner (17:17):
exactly.
Laura May (17:17):
If we think of this very easy idea of a flashback, you
Adrian Wagner (17:21):
Yeah.
Exactly.
Laura May (17:22):
or visual or what have you, it's looping cause it hasn't
Adrian Wagner (17:25):
yeah, yeah.
And that, and that's what hedefines as this time collapse.
There's also the time release wherewhen these moments of time collapses
happen, and as you described, youhave a collective space for a proof to
work through it, you can release thosestored threats or emotions or what
has been held back, and you can end upat a very different place and a very
(17:47):
different container to continue forward.
And these kind of processes, I think,are not yet well enough established,
especially on a societal level.
Laura May (17:56):
Really curious, I wanna talk about your project in a second, but,
this example you've given just now offlashing back and collapsing of time
and specifically, Putin's invasion ofUkraine versus the history of Germany.
And this idea of moving forward,because I was actually catching a
train across Germany from Slovakiaback to Brussels about a day
(18:19):
after the start of the invasion.
And so, as you can imagine the trainswere full of Ukrainian refugees already.
Like they were just packed.
And it's actually makesme really emotional.
I'll time to think about this . I haveto like try and say this without crying.
But you know, I remember being thereon this train and there were all these
older Germans, who were just on thetrain and trying to recall Russian
(18:43):
from the days of East Germany, right?
So they could communicate with therefugees and just asking them how to
help or telling 'em where to go orgiving them food and stuff on the train.
And so it was very like, it was alot , like it was very touching.
But it made me wonder, I mean maybethis is a way in which we can
(19:04):
culturally process trauma as well.
Seeing it from the other side, helpingfrom the other side and perhaps
processing it and integrating it in a way.
Right.
And so I don't know if that's veryscientific, but it's just as you were
talking about the collapsing of timeand then moving forward, it made me
think about this specific example.
Well actually maybe this experienceis not just about accepting Ukraine
(19:25):
as part of Europe or as defendingEurope or what have you, but also
specifically in the German context,helping to move stories forward about
what Germany is and what Germany will be.
Adrian Wagner (19:37):
Yeah.
And you know, there, there's areason I think why that topic is
so emotional and it's not just you.
And, and, and I think to some extent, Iwould even argue again, that's also not
very scientific, but we touching here intosomething like we touching into an open
collective trauma, so to speak, right?
And it's, it's not just Ukrainianwar, like if you now dive into that
(19:59):
like maybe even the sadness that youfeel here, it's the sadness of the
people that need to flee Ukraine.
But part of that is also the sadness ofthe German, you know, former D D R and
the breakdown of that structure, right?
It's also the sadness of the Germansbefore that, that need to flee.
So you see how nested thesekind of pockets are, and I
(20:21):
would say a lot of people.
Especially with Ukraine,once it happened, like they
really poured out their heart.
And in one way it's interesting becauseit was a bit of a very different
experience than before with the Syrian.
Laura May (20:34):
Mm.
Adrian Wagner (20:35):
Yet at the same time in my opinion, having somebody like Angela
Merkel suddenly just opening up theborders, as a conservative politicians.
And if you were back then in Germany,like it was really this opening in the
beginning of a heart, almost like, ofa collective heart and saying like,
we want to be somebody different.
Laura May (20:53):
Mm-hmm.
Adrian Wagner (20:54):
And the the interesting thing is that that goes both ways.
So a lot of people, my family includedas well, like my grandfather actually,
he comes from Ukraine, so don't ask mewhat I went through when the war started.
And I have friends there, soit was an interesting more
phenomenological study in that sense.
But a lot of Germans have this refugeeexperience, but as we were also
(21:16):
perpetrators, it was never processed.
So, so that border issue, thatcollective border issue was almost
like, yeah, we really want to help.
But on one level, we also don't,can put enough rationality into
it to manage it in a good way,
Laura May (21:32):
Mm.
Adrian Wagner (21:32):
or, or they're kind of like these blind spots attached to the as well.
Like, especially in the Syriancrisis, you felt that very strong.
And the backlash of course was then,where the people closed down very
strongly or they were afraid, and thenyou had the uprising of the right-wing
parties or party, the A A F D.
So those dynamics in a certain way,I would argue, and that's the thesis
(21:55):
I'm, I'm holding is suddenly politicsare very emotional and politics are not
that rational as we perceive them often.
Laura May (22:04):
not rational at all.
Adrian Wagner (22:05):
Yeah, they're not rational at all.
I mean, we know that bynow with the Trump area.
Right.
But if you look always a little bitdeeper under the polarization or under
the crisis that is happening, youdiscover, well, there there has been
something that has been overlooked.
And there have been peoplethat were in need for example.
Like, why did Trump emerge in the us?
I, I think a lot of those more poorwhite people, and the opioid crisis was,
(22:31):
was not taken well enough into account.
And, and of course that's not an excuse,but you see that there is an underlying
pattern that's suddenly, you know,like you get these reactions and you
think like, what is this coming from?
And if you look deeper, I think ithas a lot to do with this kind of like
the traumatization, the collectivetraumatization of our societies.
(22:51):
And I'm not saying that.
That's new.
I'm just saying now, since we havethe scientific rigority and we have
also the plurality and the wealththat we have in those days, I think
we live in the best times ever,but that brings all that stuff up.
You know, we only now havetime to think about it and to
some extent to feel into it.
And if you don't deal with it, thenconflicts recreate themselves in
(23:16):
different settings in different times.
But there's certain things whereyou end up with these kind of
blind spots in the political area.
That I think could be integrated ifwe would have more collective mourning
spaces or collective integration spaces.
Laura May (23:30):
So to take this back again for a moment then
to the individual level, right?
So thinking about analog betweenindividual and collective, because you
know, you say someone, they decide,they'll go to a therapist, right?
They've had a horrible breakup,or I don't know, they're an
alcoholic or whatever it is.
They've got some kind of issue and theygo to the therapist and the therapist's
like, all right, well that's bad, butlet's talk about your childhood, right?
(23:53):
Because it's all about getting to theidea of root causes that lead us to think
and feel and act in particular ways.
And then we have this compulsoryrepetition of the conflicts from growing
up that we keep doing over and over again.
They might be expressedin poor relational skills.
They might be existing insubstance abuses and what have you.
And so that's what I'm hearing yousay now about collective traumas
(24:15):
is like, yes, well we have thisparticular crisis right now.
But there's this underlying personalityor childhood or longer memory, which
is actually leading to all of thesethings, or is leading to us being
unable to deal with them in sortof a, a healthy way, if you will.
Adrian Wagner (24:30):
Yeah, of course, of course.
Individual therapy is probablymore complex in a certain way.
But the idea I think is totally right.
Yes.
And with the pocket project andthe work that has been done there,
I would even go so far that likethe major crisis of climate change,
it's not an environmental crisis,it's a relationship problem, right?
It's our relationship with nature.
So with modern nature.
(24:52):
So in that sense, let'stalk about modern issues.
I mean, sounds a bit silly, soundsa bit, sounds a bit silly, right?
But, but there is,
Laura May (24:59):
doesn't though.
Adrian Wagner (25:00):
But, but there is something in that where, like with
modernity, we moved into a place wherewe suddenly realized, okay, it's not
only progress and from here ahead.
And that's where, like we had thesecond World War and all those kind
of things, and suddenly we had postmodernity coming, criticizing all
the power struggle, realizing it.
And there's a lot of fragmentationhappening and a lot of like we
(25:20):
are actually in this space where wedon't know, and we are criticizing
and deconstructing, but at thesame time, do we really go to the
root where there is something likehealing or reconciliation happening.
And I think for that, just talkingabout it is probably not enough.
I think we need to include theknowledge, the emotional experience
(25:41):
as well as the knowledge of thebody and to fully integrate and to
fully move into these kind of spacesand do the work that we need to do.
And there's a whole scale of issues.
And to some extent, I guessthat's what we tried or what we
experimented in in that yeah, in thatevent that we did the research on,
Laura May (26:01):
Yes.
So let's talk about that because you'veproduced a report, which is called
Overcoming Polarization in Crises, andI think we've established that this does
relate to your doctoral research as well.
Adrian Wagner (26:12):
definitely.
Laura May (26:13):
And I saw that your question was, does a collective trauma awareness
and integration process help to strengthendemocracy and overcome polarization?
There's a lot of words and a lot ofconcepts in here, so let's break it down.
I think we've covered collectivetrauma, so could you perhaps
just reiterate what it means tointegrate trauma for our listeners?
Adrian Wagner (26:35):
Yeah.
You know fair enough.
Like when it comes to integratingtrauma, the way we looked at it, is like,
that's your story suddenly makes sense.
I think that's the simplest definition.
Like, are you still living infragmented narratives that pop up and
the flashbacks and you always reacting?
Or do you suddenly see like, okay,something bad happened, but I
(26:56):
moved on and I can incorporate that.
And the world is not only about that ornot, each response is connected to that.
So in a simple way that'sprobably integration.
You know, can we reallyfeel what happened?
Can we let it go?
You know, can we releasesome of the tension?
Like trauma is a veryintelligent, intelligent function.
(27:17):
It helps us to survive, it helpsus to suppress something that we
are not strong enough to carry.
I think that's first ofall, that's the core.
You know, like we often focus too much onlet's get rid of trauma or bad emotions.
Then saying, look, there's a reasonwhy we don't want to feel that, so let's
stay with why we don't want to feel it.
And if you stay with that, like that's thefirst level I think of trauma integration.
(27:40):
Then we shift a bit deeper.
And if you have a group or a coherentor a good therapist that can hold the
safe space, like we are step by step,moving deeper and are unable to hold
what we have not been able to hold beforeor to grief or to feel the pain that
we haven't been able to feel before.
(28:02):
And out of that, like a new kindof sense making can happen that then
helps us to move on in our life.
And I think that counts for individuals.
But I think we are at the timeand in a time and a place where
we can start engaging in thatalso, as groups or collectives.
And I think that's where thefund starts, to be honest.
Laura May (28:23):
Like why do with one person's trauma, we can
deal with the whole societies?
And so what actually was your methodfor doing this to help produce
the research for this report?
How did you generate thiscollected trauma awareness?
How did you help peopleprocess and integrate it?
Adrian Wagner (28:41):
Yeah, so the main process is called the Collective
Trauma Integration Process.
That was experientially defined byThomas Hubel, like he did more meditation
and self-awareness groups in Germany.
And over time he realizes all the timeat a certain point, like these collective
themes of the Holocaust come up, likeit friends generational, like through
(29:03):
the family history, how that affectsyou, or it just erupted in the groups.
So he started to look intothat and to research that more
experientially in his groups.
And what he realized and what he sofar developed now is that it's mainly
about a meta reflection and a slowingdown within a group where you start
(29:24):
to become aware that a lot of thingsare in our subconsciousness, like if
you move in with that, not to try toget to somewhere, but you first enter
into space, like you build resource,you move into a bit more of a slower
mindfulness kind of like space.
And then it's different exerciseslike perception exercises,
(29:46):
like guided writing experience.
Like what is my relationshipto Russia right now?
And you just write what comes to your mindand you know, like the subconsciousness
is doing the work itself if you let it.
There's also like, you know, likethere were triads where three
people would meet in a breakoutsession and share their experience.
There's a lot of focus on, whileI'm speaking, I'm noticing my
(30:10):
body, I'm noticing how I feel.
So I'm trying not to cut myself offfrom something, but to stay in the
presence of my emotions, of my body.
And there's a lot of one-on-one workthat Thomas did with participants.
And I think often, like what I noticed inmy research is there's certain sentences
(30:32):
that people will say and they just go overit and he would bring them back and say,
look, there was an important sentence.
Could you repeat that one just slowly?
And people would say that I feelso anxious when I'm around my
grandmother and I don't know why.
And suddenly it drops in and, andsomething comes up, just as an example.
(30:52):
And if you do that work, andyou are related, there's even
not only like a resonance with aperson, But with a whole group.
So the whole group actually feelssuddenly, okay, there's some information
stored that affects us or that thatmoves us a step further in that journey.
(31:13):
Like I mean, in one very powerfulprocess, like that we did in Germany.
There was an Israeli living for a longtime and in that process, like he was
actually quite okay to talk about theHolocaust and all of these kind of things.
But in that session, like he landed ata place and discovered like that wound,
that wounding, and he spoke from there.
(31:35):
And you could see how that almost createdlike more space for the whole group.
Like how almost something was relieved notjust from him, but from the collective.
You know, there's something like it's,it's very difficult to describe, but if
you experience it it's yeah, moments ofprecedence, emotional release, coherence.
I mean, we had 16 people thatwere trained that were kind of like
(31:58):
observing the process and writing downcertain codes, like strong emotions
or resonance or time collapse sothat at the end you could look, okay,
where are five for six people saying,here was emotional release happening.
That was one research method we used, andthen we collected basically narratives,
(32:19):
you know, so we just ask people, how doyou feel in these times with this crisis?
What story would you as acitizen tell a good friend?
And then basically that really helped usto see what were people talking before
and how people would talk afterwards orwhat kind of narratives they would share.
(32:40):
So we basically said, look,if trauma is related to sense
making, as well as politics.
Politics is always, it's not fact-based.
Often it's also a certainsense making, right?
Like you look at politics, if youwould have fact-based politics,
it would look very different.
But politics cannot be fact-based.
Only fact-based because you'reentering complexity or complex domain.
(33:02):
And in a complex domain you need to makesense because not all the facts are known.
So that is the same with democracy.
It's the same with individual trauma.
And it's the same with history.
So here, when it comes to sense making,we have something where we can look
at people's narratives and we seelike, okay, what are the tendencies?
(33:24):
So they would rate those narrativesthrough the SenseMaker software
by the Khan Center, like DaveSnowden, big complexity expert.
There's little research tools outthere that show you know, 640 micro
narratives and you can basically see inwhat polarity people place themselves.
Right?
(33:45):
So that's something tolook up in the report.
And through that we discovered, yeah,while before people would much more
be out there, with the crisisesor with democracy afterwards, people
would be much more in contact.
They would share much more narrativesthat actually said like, look,
democracy actually, not justinstitutions, it's a relationship.
(34:07):
Or stories like before when it came tothe pandemic policies, like one woman
before Road, like, oh, I'm so confusedand not sure where to inform myself.
And, it puts a lot of pressure into me.
And afterwards she said, wow, Irealized that that confusion is
actually related very early on in mychildhood because my dad was not around.
(34:27):
And I tried in the Corona time to dealwith that confusion through my intellect.
But actually I need to kind of likebe in contact with that confusion.
That's much more helpful.
Yeah.
And so you see how people in thesetimes of crisis suddenly get triggered
with old experiences subconsciouslyand how that affects directly democracy
and how that actually can be used.
(34:48):
We could clearly see that atthe end people were much more
responsive like to the idea ofdemocratic engagement for example.
Laura May (34:56):
And so if you could pass a magic spell right, and suddenly
miraculously all of this collectivetrauma from whatever society, let's
say Germany is removed, how do youthink democracy would look different?
Adrian Wagner (35:14):
Yeah.
That, that's , that's,that's, that's a question.
But actually the answer is, When we talkabout collective trauma, a lot of people
think like, wow, all this sufferingand all this pain and all of this.
So the beauty, I think, and that'swhat I feel when these kind of moments
of integration happening also in,in bigger groups is there's so much
(35:34):
potential and there's so much joy.
So, what I would see is like aflourishing, like not even Germany,
a flourishing Europe, you know, wherewe really come together to deal
with not just climate change, butwhere we really start living and
exploring world culture together.
I think like moving into globalizationand moving into more of like a
(35:57):
humanity that comes together.
I think that's a big part wherewhen we really look into these
historical pains that we share.
Once we go through that, I think weare capable of so much more on that
planet and we probably then alsobe able to regenerate a lot of the
things we already have damaged when itcomes to nature and stuff like that.
(36:19):
So I think healing collective trauma givesus actually the energy to deal with the
crisises that we are currently facing.
And the sooner we look into it,I think the less crisises we
need and we actually can startbuilding more flourishing futures.
Laura May (36:36):
Wonderful and aspirational.
If you could give one recommendationto our listeners today as individuals
who are experiencing collective trauma,or as practitioners and mediators
that will be working with peoplethat deal with collective trauma,
what would that recommendation?
Adrian Wagner (36:55):
Yeah, very easy question.
Laura May (36:57):
I'm just thinking this is the hardest questions ever.
I think, I think I've been meaner to youthan any other guest I've had so far.
Adrian Wagner (37:03):
that's good.
No, I like it.
Laura May (37:04):
it's like a practice PhD defense.
Adrian Wagner (37:06):
yeah.
So, you know, probably, of course Icould play that save and say look
into the research, read our report.
Like, get yourself going with allthe knowledge that is out there.
Familiarize yourself a bit,but on a deeper level, I think
really, really look into and feelinto your ancestral lineages.
I think that's the one thing that Iwould give out as the one advice, like
(37:31):
connect, connect actually to the strengththat you have in your own lineage.
And try to feel into that as, as deepas possible, maybe together with others.
Because in my experience, like theintergenerational aspect is where
collective trauma starts and where there'sactually also a lot of research out there
and it's it's a fantastic experience.
(37:52):
Like to feel that you havethis whole stream behind you,
you have this whole stream.
Like there are actually people thatcame before you that suffered all these
addresses teeth, and they still survived.
And if they wouldn't have madeit, you wouldn't be there.
And if that stream of life is felt,if you realize that that stream
of life actually goes all the wayback, I think that's already a lot.
(38:15):
That would be the not soscientific answer probably.
Like of course there have been badbehavior done by generations before
us, and often we don't want to look atinto that as well, especially if those
people have been close to us, right?
Like my grandfather, he went to the war.
And I think the paradox here, and thebeauty here is as well to hold what
(38:36):
was not right as what was not right.
Because that first of all frees mefrom my own guilt of not looking at it.
And at the same time, like there is astream, even a stream of life, like that
flow through that I'm still connectedto and that I can stand in and that
gives me more strength to carry on withwhatever I want to do in this world.
Laura May (38:58):
Sorry, I'm, I'm gonna be mean again because as you're
saying this, It makes me think thatyou come from a reasonably secure
and probably privileged background?
Because not everyone willhave that experience of a
stream of love as you put it.
Whether it's because, for example,they're in a country where there's
no birth control or they're like anunwanted child, or they're rejected as
(39:20):
a child or abandoned, what have you.
Adrian Wagner (39:23):
Yeah.
So, so, so first, first of all.
Yes.
Yes.
I, I, I can, I can absolutely hear that.
And I would say, you know, like, Iwould counter that with, the idea
that we are so individual as we areis actually quite a Western concept.
And of course, Iunderstand the critic here.
The core idea of it is you are builtinto a web of life that goes back
(39:43):
and that goes forward maybe, and Ithink we lost that to some extent
in our very individualized countries.
And, and that's part I thinkof the problem as well.
It of course doesn't stop withgenetic families, so to speak.
I think we are up to building muchbroader communities and ideally we
are building like global communitiesand at the same time, I think a lot
(40:04):
of the trauma and a lot of the painis produced in the smallest unit,
or passed if you want it or not.
Like what you said earlier, if my momgot me, but actually she didn't want
to have me, it's something I maybehave to deal with all my lifelong
and have to come to terms with it.
Right?
There's a process of sensemaking ifI want or not, that needs to happen.
(40:27):
I'm not saying you have to lovethem, like, it's more of like, how
do you stay in a connection andhold what was wrong and still stay
in a resonance and in a connection?
So that, and of course that's thenon so scientific and probably more
personal answer to that question.
Laura May (40:45):
Well thank you so much for joining me today, Adrian.
And so for those who are interestedin learning more about your
work, where can they find you?
Adrian Wagner (40:53):
Yeah, definitely on LinkedIn.
Adrian Vagner, LinkedIn isthe best way to meet up.
I also want to mention the pocket projectwebsite that does this great and fantastic
work so you can find more informationthere as well and download the report.
And also want to mention more democracy,the N G O that we did that work together
in Germany, which is also interesting.
(41:15):
And it's more for German audiencesmaybe, but there also have
some English stuff out there.
Laura May (41:20):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you again, and until nexttime, this is Laura May with the Conflict
Tipping Podcast from mediate.com.
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping podcast from mediate.com,
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and today Ihave with me Adrian Vagner, research
Fellow at the European School ofGovernance in the fairytale esque
Black Forest PhD researcher lookinginto collective trauma integration and
(00:33):
who describes himself as occasionallytrespassing into the wild fields of art.
So welcome Adrian.
Adrian Wagner (00:40):
Yeah.
Thank you very much, Laura.
Great to see you, and I'm very gladto be here with you on this podcast.
Laura May (00:47):
I'm very happy to have you here now for those who are listening.
I actually met Adrian, we just realizedit was seven years ago, which has
made us feel both unnecessarily oldbecause we were doing a European
council meeting, which is theEurope nerd version of the Model un.
And so it's probably no surprise beingthe nerds that we apparently are, that
(01:07):
we both ended up in doctoral programs,
so then speaking of your PhD,what actually is it about?
Like what led you toresearch collective trauma?
Adrian Wagner (01:19):
Good question.
So basically, I think to answer thequestion I would go a long time back,
which is basically to my civil servicethat I did when I was around 20 and
it wasn't used in culture center.
And we had a lot of, you know, lecturesand workshops around Israel politics in
the current times, but also the German.
Jewish interaction, of course.
(01:39):
And back then, that was the first timeI heard about the, you know, the, the
collective wound, so to speak, or trauma.
Did a seminar with Kit.
She doesn't live anymore.
She did an interview withAlbert Spare, which was the
architect, you know, of Hitler.
That was quite impressive to meetthat lady who interviewed one of
those big, big Nazis, so to speak.
And I decided to go because of all thoseconflicting perspectives from the past
(02:04):
and from the present, I decided to goon a journey through the Middle East.
And since then, and especially because ofthat trip, I realized how conflicts are
first of all not simple, black and white.
And at the same time how easy it isto view them as black and white or
to get torn on one side or the other.
And the underlying topic for meseemed to be very clear that there is
(02:28):
something, like a collective woundingor collective trauma on a smaller
scale in families, but also on alarger scale in cultures or nations.
And I explored that topic.
I met Thomas Hubble and his wife, whoan Israeli artist on a conference.
Back then even there was even VanMc vCAN who researched Collective
Trauma as one of the first researcher.
And you know, that's howit carried on in a way.
(02:51):
And at some points in my life,you know, I wasn't focused on it.
At some points I let it go because Ithought like, well, this is just too much.
You know, like this, it,it's, it's a bit too much.
Like I focus on my personal stuff.
I focus on my career, but it keepscoming back and it kept coming back.
And at a certain point, that wasthe pocket project founded by Thomas
(03:12):
Hubble, who is in a way, I wouldsay like a spiritual teacher, but
also working with group processes.
A lot of shared work like GK therapy.
And he started with his wife, thepocket project, which was around
collective trauma integration.
And then they even started a PhD program,the Academy of Neuroscience, where they
(03:33):
wanted to research topics like that.
And I felt like, well, that's what Ialways trained about to be happening,
being flexible on my own and doingresearch on this weird intersection
of collective trauma meditation aswell as democracy or politics.
And yeah, that's where I jumpedinto the program and I said let's
research collective trauma integrationthrough the pocket project.
(03:56):
And here I am, four yearslater, but still going
Laura May (04:00):
Yep.
It's, it's the, the story of PhDs, right?
You know, you start and thenyou keep going until it's done.
So what kinds of collectivetraumas are we talking about?
Because you've mentioned one alreadyas far as you know, Germany and Israel,
Adrian Wagner (04:13):
yeah, so basically, the first question that we would need to be
clarifying is what is collective trauma?
Of course.
Right.
And to a certain extent, you could gointo definitions later because that's
be the struggle also of the PhD in thescientific work and to pinpoint that.
But as a metaphor, I think it worksvery well to explain a lot of the stuff
that is coming up in recent times.
(04:35):
Starting from the whole idea of patriarchyis connected deeply to collective trauma.
The whole idea like colonizationlike if you have colonization going
on for two, 300 years, I mean, thatcreates a certain culture and we
are all born in certain cultures.
And I think if you look backinto history with an open mind,
(04:55):
you discover major events.
I think our whole history is written.
By winners who defeated somebody, right.
So in a certain way, especially inEurope and especially for the German
context, it's pretty clear I think, ifyou look at the First World War at
the Second World War, but I think youprobably could go back even until this
(05:16):
30 year war and you still discover someof those scarves in the social tissue
or the cultural tissue, so to speak.
And it's kind of like a messywork to differentiate what is
what, because trauma has become,I think, quite popular as a term.
So you really need to be carefulfrom what position you look at it.
(05:37):
But I think when, when it comesto the pocket project, they did a
lot of great online trainings wherethey bring people together from
different cultural backgrounds, alsowithin one cultural background,
and then really ask that question.
So what, how would welook into our culture?
What are the blind spots?
What are the shadows?
What are the aspects we getheated talking about, right?
(05:58):
And in a certain way howThomas Hubel describes it.
Usually the things that youdon't see, but that affect our
culture and our interactions.
The things that are usuallynot on the table, that's where
the real stuff happens, right?
I mean, that's where wedon't want to look at.
And of course for a long timethat was slavery, that was colonial
(06:19):
colonialization to some extent.
I think that still is it.
And I mean he calls that thedark lake, like the parts of the
culture where we don't want to go orwhere the narratives somehow don't
really fit or somehow break apart.
They're fragmented.
Laura May (06:35):
As you're saying this, it's actually making me
think about Carl Yung, right?
And this idea of a shadow self as the theself we have to embrace to move forward.
I mean, I say that as someone who'snot very pro Carl Yung, but this is a
similar idea in some ways, right?
Adrian Wagner (06:48):
Yeah.
I mean, first of all, I mean, UNG isan interesting case but I mean there
is something that he framed as thecollective unconscious as well, that's.
Carl Youngs, of course, if you look from ascientific perspective, a bit problematic.
Or at least, at least, I wouldsay there's stuff out there or
or terms that he, that he coined.
(07:09):
So in that sense, yes.
But of course, definitely from ascientifics perspective I would say there,
there are other people that moved similaridea into the open, like recently,
Sharma Peter sing, they talk aboutgenerative social fields, for example.
And I think if you look at why wedon't have generative social fields,
I think a big part of it is that weare engaging in certain patterns or
(07:33):
in certain agreements, like to holdback what we don't want to feel or that
what we don't want to feel in public.
Laura May (07:40):
I actually just wanna take it back for a moment because
earlier you were talking aboutthis idea of cultural trauma.
You know, you mentioned going backto the 30 years war and so on, but
what I wanna know is, do we haveany evidence or suggestion that
cultures do get over these traumas?
Or do they change in some way?
Because it seems to me that, if culturesare just gathering traumas over time,
(08:02):
that eventually will be sort of paralyzedin some way, or super conflictual.
I mean, how do we get over these things?
Adrian Wagner (08:11):
That the, I guess that's the easiest question
in that whole discourse.
Right?
So first of all, on my research journey.
What came up for mewas first the question.
Okay, collective trauma seemsto make a lot of sense.
You know, like a lot of people killingeach other, so you have a lot of trauma.
Now if you look at the research,it's like an intersection
of different perspectives.
Yeah.
So if you have a psychologicalperspective, trauma is very
(08:32):
clearly defined as somethingthat is life-threatening.
That is a process.
But even within psychology, whoborrowed the term trauma, which
basically means in Greek wound, evenpsychology took that from medicine.
So when it comes to psychology,there's this whole evolution of what
trauma is and in a certain way, likethere are certain streams that take
(08:56):
the term trauma from a psychologicalsense and apply it to societies.
You have this whole idea oncollective processing of mass
individual traumas, or you havetransgenerational multi-generational
traumas you have mass traumatization.
So those are all terms that comemore from the field, that look from
(09:16):
the individual to the collective.
What you miss out or what the dangeris there is that often we simplify the
sociological and more systemic aspects.
So we look at society more as we look atindividuals and that doesn't work as well.
So on the other hand,Alexandra, he define.
Cultural trauma is a process whichis a group which does not need to
(09:39):
be directly affected by traumaticevents, but that perceives the trauma
as relevant because of a specificcultural and historical process.
So he argues that thisprocess permanently changes
the identity of the group.
Even if you don't have experience,the trauma of slavery or whatever.
There are other people even talking abouttrauma, politics and how that becomes
(10:01):
like in a identity politics, a term touse and also to be misused for power.
And at the same time, Van Alcan , put outthe term chosen trauma like events that
are long gone but held alive in cultures.
And at a certain point, ifeverybody has trauma, like what,
what's the point of the term, right?
There there's no sincerityleft in it anymore.
(10:22):
So, so in that sense if you wantto heal collective trauma, we
first need to establish is itactually a real thing, right?
And what I would say isyes, definitely it is.
And it's still very subtle ifwe are, because we are built
into that collective, right?
If we build into our collective,it's hard to see it, it's hard to
(10:43):
feel it because we grow up with it.
And the best definition inmy opinion that I've found
so far is by Angela Cooner.
She says that collective trauma isa traumatic event that has not been
processed within collective memory.
Laura May (11:03):
So as I understand it to make these different ideas of collective
trauma concrete, on the one hand we havethis individual physiological kind of
trauma, which is shared across society.
So if we look at Covid for instance,obviously it's happening now or it's
been happening, people are traumatized,they are dealing in different ways.
We can already see.
(11:24):
Changes in society is an outcome, andwho knows how long this will last for.
Right?
So that's sort of the, the one idea.
And as I understand it, the secondidea you've presented is related
to victim self identification.
Because I know that Tammy Jacob isin some fantastic work on this about
when you identify yourself as a victimand you come together in this idea
of shared victimhood, or it could beshared trauma, then you can politicize
(11:47):
that and use it to demand rights.
So have I understood that correctly?
These two different ideasof collective trauma?
Adrian Wagner (11:55):
Yes, roughly.
I would say so.
Definitely.
The important thing is, I guess,that, if you look at collective
trauma it's not enough to justinclude an individual perspective or.
A more collective perspective.
I think both don't go far enough.
We need to kind of bring it together andthat leads directly to more collective
memory sense making and narratives.
Laura May (12:15):
And so what actually is sense making the way you're using it?
Adrian Wagner (12:19):
So the sensemaking process is where you try to make sense out of a
situation, and it's very much, you know,constructing your own identity, right?
It's retrospective, like somethinghappens, you lost your keys, you go
out, and then you suddenly meet thelove of your life and you're saying,
ah, that's why I lost my keys.
So it's retrospective, it's notconnected to rationality usually always.
(12:42):
But it makes sense to you thatyou had to lose those keys.
Narratives are like the way wemake sense of the world, right?
So we tell stories andthat's how we make sense.
But stories are usually, I mean,that's the interesting part.
They need to make sense.
They don't need to be true.
And that's where it becomesinteresting, especially also when we
(13:03):
have unpleasant experiences, we createstories around them and sometimes how
can we integrate unpleasant experiencewithout, like getting rid of them.
And that relates of course, also thento collective trauma integration.
I think those are terms specifically,I think in a scientific context
where we start to be moreprecise, like as a metaphor.
(13:25):
I think collective trauma works well.
You know, everybody understandsthat, big earthquakes or uh,
sis in war, like all of thosethings create mass traumatization.
I mean that's understandable.
And yet at the same time, how canwe pinpoint and how can we work
to integrate collective trauma.
(13:45):
There's a lot of good studies out therethat when trauma occurs in individuals
now from a psychological perspective,your sense making of the world is damaged.
Like you suddenly don't see howthe world can make sense anymore.
Yeah.
So it's fragmented.
So there's also work starting howto integrate the experience and
(14:07):
how to start making sense againof the world together with others.
Because I think when you look atpost-traumatic growth, you know,
like Victor Frankl, very famous one,survived the concentration camps and.
There is a part in that where he saidlike, if you are able to place yourself in
the context where you understand why youpersecuted or why it happens, not that
(14:30):
that you're supposed to suffer, but ifyou're aware why it happens and you find
a certain kind of meaning and agency init, it can lead to post-traumatic growth.
And I think the sense-making aspect nowapplies not only to individuals, but that
can also apply to these traumatic eventsthat are restored in collective memory.
Laura May (14:53):
But I guess a big difference though between an individual experiencing
trauma and a collective experiencingtrauma is that perhaps individuals have
acceptable ways in which to grieve andto process and to see support, whereas
collective groups don't so much, right?
Adrian Wagner (15:08):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think that's the core point.
And that's also the work.
I think that with the Pocket project,for example, what they starting
to pioneer, what they starting toexplore, there's a collective trauma
integration process that they more fromexperiential data that they came up with.
I think there's one thing aroundremembering what happened, the
(15:29):
traditional remembering in cultureand, I grow up with a lot of
stories about the Holocaust andwhat we did back then in Germany.
But it's a total differencewhen, when you touched emotion,
And you suddenly feel what happens.
You suddenly feel there's a, a healthyhorror that you can experience if you
(15:52):
really feel into, well, that countrykilled 6 million Jews and many others.
So, I think to tap into those emotionsand to hold them creates a different
atmosphere that creates a differentkind of remembering and a different
kind of integration of these traumaticevents in our collective memory.
And if you don't do that, I have theimpression, or that's also some of the
(16:15):
thesis it affects when crisis come.
It affects our process, our democracies,for example now with the Ukraine war
and with the study we did, there werea lot of people that were triggered
by the war and where stories cameup that are related to the war.
I mean, even to some extent you couldeven argue, how Putin sold that war
(16:36):
is like he's fighting Nazis, right?
So there is what Vanek Wakincalls like a time collapse.
The recent events triggeredthe emotions of another time.
And those emotions are so real thatyou perceive the events as something
almost as threatening as in the past.
Laura May (16:55):
Mm.
Adrian Wagner (16:56):
But it's what happens is actually you collapse into the time.
You're thinking, okay,they're all Nazis now.
It's almost like time traveling.
So it in, in certain studies, likewhile we perceive time linear, we
can experience time very differently.
We can experience the past in the present.
Laura May (17:15):
Especially I guess, the people who are traumatized, right?
Adrian Wagner (17:17):
exactly.
Laura May (17:17):
If we think of this very easy idea of a flashback, you
Adrian Wagner (17:21):
Yeah.
Exactly.
Laura May (17:22):
or visual or what have you, it's looping cause it hasn't
Adrian Wagner (17:25):
yeah, yeah.
And that, and that's what hedefines as this time collapse.
There's also the time release wherewhen these moments of time collapses
happen, and as you described, youhave a collective space for a proof to
work through it, you can release thosestored threats or emotions or what
has been held back, and you can end upat a very different place and a very
(17:47):
different container to continue forward.
And these kind of processes, I think,are not yet well enough established,
especially on a societal level.
Laura May (17:56):
Really curious, I wanna talk about your project in a second, but,
this example you've given just now offlashing back and collapsing of time
and specifically, Putin's invasion ofUkraine versus the history of Germany.
And this idea of moving forward,because I was actually catching a
train across Germany from Slovakiaback to Brussels about a day
(18:19):
after the start of the invasion.
And so, as you can imagine the trainswere full of Ukrainian refugees already.
Like they were just packed.
And it's actually makesme really emotional.
I'll time to think about this . I haveto like try and say this without crying.
But you know, I remember being thereon this train and there were all these
older Germans, who were just on thetrain and trying to recall Russian
(18:43):
from the days of East Germany, right?
So they could communicate with therefugees and just asking them how to
help or telling 'em where to go orgiving them food and stuff on the train.
And so it was very like, it was alot , like it was very touching.
But it made me wonder, I mean maybethis is a way in which we can
(19:04):
culturally process trauma as well.
Seeing it from the other side, helpingfrom the other side and perhaps
processing it and integrating it in a way.
Right.
And so I don't know if that's veryscientific, but it's just as you were
talking about the collapsing of timeand then moving forward, it made me
think about this specific example.
Well actually maybe this experienceis not just about accepting Ukraine
(19:25):
as part of Europe or as defendingEurope or what have you, but also
specifically in the German context,helping to move stories forward about
what Germany is and what Germany will be.
Adrian Wagner (19:37):
Yeah.
And you know, there, there's areason I think why that topic is
so emotional and it's not just you.
And, and, and I think to some extent, Iwould even argue again, that's also not
very scientific, but we touching here intosomething like we touching into an open
collective trauma, so to speak, right?
And it's, it's not just Ukrainianwar, like if you now dive into that
(19:59):
like maybe even the sadness that youfeel here, it's the sadness of the
people that need to flee Ukraine.
But part of that is also the sadness ofthe German, you know, former D D R and
the breakdown of that structure, right?
It's also the sadness of the Germansbefore that, that need to flee.
So you see how nested thesekind of pockets are, and I
(20:21):
would say a lot of people.
Especially with Ukraine,once it happened, like they
really poured out their heart.
And in one way it's interesting becauseit was a bit of a very different
experience than before with the Syrian.
Laura May (20:34):
Mm.
Adrian Wagner (20:35):
Yet at the same time in my opinion, having somebody like Angela
Merkel suddenly just opening up theborders, as a conservative politicians.
And if you were back then in Germany,like it was really this opening in the
beginning of a heart, almost like, ofa collective heart and saying like,
we want to be somebody different.
Laura May (20:53):
Mm-hmm.
Adrian Wagner (20:54):
And the the interesting thing is that that goes both ways.
So a lot of people, my family includedas well, like my grandfather actually,
he comes from Ukraine, so don't ask mewhat I went through when the war started.
And I have friends there, soit was an interesting more
phenomenological study in that sense.
But a lot of Germans have this refugeeexperience, but as we were also
(21:16):
perpetrators, it was never processed.
So, so that border issue, thatcollective border issue was almost
like, yeah, we really want to help.
But on one level, we also don't,can put enough rationality into
it to manage it in a good way,
Laura May (21:32):
Mm.
Adrian Wagner (21:32):
or, or they're kind of like these blind spots attached to the as well.
Like, especially in the Syriancrisis, you felt that very strong.
And the backlash of course was then,where the people closed down very
strongly or they were afraid, and thenyou had the uprising of the right-wing
parties or party, the A A F D.
So those dynamics in a certain way,I would argue, and that's the thesis
(21:55):
I'm, I'm holding is suddenly politicsare very emotional and politics are not
that rational as we perceive them often.
Laura May (22:04):
not rational at all.
Adrian Wagner (22:05):
Yeah, they're not rational at all.
I mean, we know that bynow with the Trump area.
Right.
But if you look always a little bitdeeper under the polarization or under
the crisis that is happening, youdiscover, well, there there has been
something that has been overlooked.
And there have been peoplethat were in need for example.
Like, why did Trump emerge in the us?
I, I think a lot of those more poorwhite people, and the opioid crisis was,
(22:31):
was not taken well enough into account.
And, and of course that's not an excuse,but you see that there is an underlying
pattern that's suddenly, you know,like you get these reactions and you
think like, what is this coming from?
And if you look deeper, I think ithas a lot to do with this kind of like
the traumatization, the collectivetraumatization of our societies.
(22:51):
And I'm not saying that.
That's new.
I'm just saying now, since we havethe scientific rigority and we have
also the plurality and the wealththat we have in those days, I think
we live in the best times ever,but that brings all that stuff up.
You know, we only now havetime to think about it and to
some extent to feel into it.
And if you don't deal with it, thenconflicts recreate themselves in
(23:16):
different settings in different times.
But there's certain things whereyou end up with these kind of
blind spots in the political area.
That I think could be integrated ifwe would have more collective mourning
spaces or collective integration spaces.
Laura May (23:30):
So to take this back again for a moment then
to the individual level, right?
So thinking about analog betweenindividual and collective, because you
know, you say someone, they decide,they'll go to a therapist, right?
They've had a horrible breakup,or I don't know, they're an
alcoholic or whatever it is.
They've got some kind of issue and theygo to the therapist and the therapist's
like, all right, well that's bad, butlet's talk about your childhood, right?
(23:53):
Because it's all about getting to theidea of root causes that lead us to think
and feel and act in particular ways.
And then we have this compulsoryrepetition of the conflicts from growing
up that we keep doing over and over again.
They might be expressedin poor relational skills.
They might be existing insubstance abuses and what have you.
And so that's what I'm hearing yousay now about collective traumas
(24:15):
is like, yes, well we have thisparticular crisis right now.
But there's this underlying personalityor childhood or longer memory, which
is actually leading to all of thesethings, or is leading to us being
unable to deal with them in sortof a, a healthy way, if you will.
Adrian Wagner (24:30):
Yeah, of course, of course.
Individual therapy is probablymore complex in a certain way.
But the idea I think is totally right.
Yes.
And with the pocket project andthe work that has been done there,
I would even go so far that likethe major crisis of climate change,
it's not an environmental crisis,it's a relationship problem, right?
It's our relationship with nature.
So with modern nature.
(24:52):
So in that sense, let'stalk about modern issues.
I mean, sounds a bit silly, soundsa bit, sounds a bit silly, right?
But, but there is,
Laura May (24:59):
doesn't though.
Adrian Wagner (25:00):
But, but there is something in that where, like with
modernity, we moved into a place wherewe suddenly realized, okay, it's not
only progress and from here ahead.
And that's where, like we had thesecond World War and all those kind
of things, and suddenly we had postmodernity coming, criticizing all
the power struggle, realizing it.
And there's a lot of fragmentationhappening and a lot of like we
(25:20):
are actually in this space where wedon't know, and we are criticizing
and deconstructing, but at thesame time, do we really go to the
root where there is something likehealing or reconciliation happening.
And I think for that, just talkingabout it is probably not enough.
I think we need to include theknowledge, the emotional experience
(25:41):
as well as the knowledge of thebody and to fully integrate and to
fully move into these kind of spacesand do the work that we need to do.
And there's a whole scale of issues.
And to some extent, I guessthat's what we tried or what we
experimented in in that yeah, in thatevent that we did the research on,
Laura May (26:01):
Yes.
So let's talk about that because you'veproduced a report, which is called
Overcoming Polarization in Crises, andI think we've established that this does
relate to your doctoral research as well.
Adrian Wagner (26:12):
definitely.
Laura May (26:13):
And I saw that your question was, does a collective trauma awareness
and integration process help to strengthendemocracy and overcome polarization?
There's a lot of words and a lot ofconcepts in here, so let's break it down.
I think we've covered collectivetrauma, so could you perhaps
just reiterate what it means tointegrate trauma for our listeners?
Adrian Wagner (26:35):
Yeah.
You know fair enough.
Like when it comes to integratingtrauma, the way we looked at it, is like,
that's your story suddenly makes sense.
I think that's the simplest definition.
Like, are you still living infragmented narratives that pop up and
the flashbacks and you always reacting?
Or do you suddenly see like, okay,something bad happened, but I
(26:56):
moved on and I can incorporate that.
And the world is not only about that ornot, each response is connected to that.
So in a simple way that'sprobably integration.
You know, can we reallyfeel what happened?
Can we let it go?
You know, can we releasesome of the tension?
Like trauma is a veryintelligent, intelligent function.
(27:17):
It helps us to survive, it helpsus to suppress something that we
are not strong enough to carry.
I think that's first ofall, that's the core.
You know, like we often focus too much onlet's get rid of trauma or bad emotions.
Then saying, look, there's a reasonwhy we don't want to feel that, so let's
stay with why we don't want to feel it.
And if you stay with that, like that's thefirst level I think of trauma integration.
(27:40):
Then we shift a bit deeper.
And if you have a group or a coherentor a good therapist that can hold the
safe space, like we are step by step,moving deeper and are unable to hold
what we have not been able to hold beforeor to grief or to feel the pain that
we haven't been able to feel before.
(28:02):
And out of that, like a new kindof sense making can happen that then
helps us to move on in our life.
And I think that counts for individuals.
But I think we are at the timeand in a time and a place where
we can start engaging in thatalso, as groups or collectives.
And I think that's where thefund starts, to be honest.
Laura May (28:23):
Like why do with one person's trauma, we can
deal with the whole societies?
And so what actually was your methodfor doing this to help produce
the research for this report?
How did you generate thiscollected trauma awareness?
How did you help peopleprocess and integrate it?
Adrian Wagner (28:41):
Yeah, so the main process is called the Collective
Trauma Integration Process.
That was experientially defined byThomas Hubel, like he did more meditation
and self-awareness groups in Germany.
And over time he realizes all the timeat a certain point, like these collective
themes of the Holocaust come up, likeit friends generational, like through
(29:03):
the family history, how that affectsyou, or it just erupted in the groups.
So he started to look intothat and to research that more
experientially in his groups.
And what he realized and what he sofar developed now is that it's mainly
about a meta reflection and a slowingdown within a group where you start
(29:24):
to become aware that a lot of thingsare in our subconsciousness, like if
you move in with that, not to try toget to somewhere, but you first enter
into space, like you build resource,you move into a bit more of a slower
mindfulness kind of like space.
And then it's different exerciseslike perception exercises,
(29:46):
like guided writing experience.
Like what is my relationshipto Russia right now?
And you just write what comes to your mindand you know, like the subconsciousness
is doing the work itself if you let it.
There's also like, you know, likethere were triads where three
people would meet in a breakoutsession and share their experience.
There's a lot of focus on, whileI'm speaking, I'm noticing my
(30:10):
body, I'm noticing how I feel.
So I'm trying not to cut myself offfrom something, but to stay in the
presence of my emotions, of my body.
And there's a lot of one-on-one workthat Thomas did with participants.
And I think often, like what I noticed inmy research is there's certain sentences
(30:32):
that people will say and they just go overit and he would bring them back and say,
look, there was an important sentence.
Could you repeat that one just slowly?
And people would say that I feelso anxious when I'm around my
grandmother and I don't know why.
And suddenly it drops in and, andsomething comes up, just as an example.
(30:52):
And if you do that work, andyou are related, there's even
not only like a resonance with aperson, But with a whole group.
So the whole group actually feelssuddenly, okay, there's some information
stored that affects us or that thatmoves us a step further in that journey.
(31:13):
Like I mean, in one very powerfulprocess, like that we did in Germany.
There was an Israeli living for a longtime and in that process, like he was
actually quite okay to talk about theHolocaust and all of these kind of things.
But in that session, like he landed ata place and discovered like that wound,
that wounding, and he spoke from there.
(31:35):
And you could see how that almost createdlike more space for the whole group.
Like how almost something was relieved notjust from him, but from the collective.
You know, there's something like it's,it's very difficult to describe, but if
you experience it it's yeah, moments ofprecedence, emotional release, coherence.
I mean, we had 16 people thatwere trained that were kind of like
(31:58):
observing the process and writing downcertain codes, like strong emotions
or resonance or time collapse sothat at the end you could look, okay,
where are five for six people saying,here was emotional release happening.
That was one research method we used, andthen we collected basically narratives,
(32:19):
you know, so we just ask people, how doyou feel in these times with this crisis?
What story would you as acitizen tell a good friend?
And then basically that really helped usto see what were people talking before
and how people would talk afterwards orwhat kind of narratives they would share.
(32:40):
So we basically said, look,if trauma is related to sense
making, as well as politics.
Politics is always, it's not fact-based.
Often it's also a certainsense making, right?
Like you look at politics, if youwould have fact-based politics,
it would look very different.
But politics cannot be fact-based.
Only fact-based because you'reentering complexity or complex domain.
(33:02):
And in a complex domain you need to makesense because not all the facts are known.
So that is the same with democracy.
It's the same with individual trauma.
And it's the same with history.
So here, when it comes to sense making,we have something where we can look
at people's narratives and we seelike, okay, what are the tendencies?
(33:24):
So they would rate those narrativesthrough the SenseMaker software
by the Khan Center, like DaveSnowden, big complexity expert.
There's little research tools outthere that show you know, 640 micro
narratives and you can basically see inwhat polarity people place themselves.
Right?
(33:45):
So that's something tolook up in the report.
And through that we discovered, yeah,while before people would much more
be out there, with the crisisesor with democracy afterwards, people
would be much more in contact.
They would share much more narrativesthat actually said like, look,
democracy actually, not justinstitutions, it's a relationship.
(34:07):
Or stories like before when it came tothe pandemic policies, like one woman
before Road, like, oh, I'm so confusedand not sure where to inform myself.
And, it puts a lot of pressure into me.
And afterwards she said, wow, Irealized that that confusion is
actually related very early on in mychildhood because my dad was not around.
(34:27):
And I tried in the Corona time to dealwith that confusion through my intellect.
But actually I need to kind of likebe in contact with that confusion.
That's much more helpful.
Yeah.
And so you see how people in thesetimes of crisis suddenly get triggered
with old experiences subconsciouslyand how that affects directly democracy
and how that actually can be used.
(34:48):
We could clearly see that atthe end people were much more
responsive like to the idea ofdemocratic engagement for example.
Laura May (34:56):
And so if you could pass a magic spell right, and suddenly
miraculously all of this collectivetrauma from whatever society, let's
say Germany is removed, how do youthink democracy would look different?
Adrian Wagner (35:14):
Yeah.
That, that's , that's,that's, that's a question.
But actually the answer is, When we talkabout collective trauma, a lot of people
think like, wow, all this sufferingand all this pain and all of this.
So the beauty, I think, and that'swhat I feel when these kind of moments
of integration happening also in,in bigger groups is there's so much
(35:34):
potential and there's so much joy.
So, what I would see is like aflourishing, like not even Germany,
a flourishing Europe, you know, wherewe really come together to deal
with not just climate change, butwhere we really start living and
exploring world culture together.
I think like moving into globalizationand moving into more of like a
(35:57):
humanity that comes together.
I think that's a big part wherewhen we really look into these
historical pains that we share.
Once we go through that, I think weare capable of so much more on that
planet and we probably then alsobe able to regenerate a lot of the
things we already have damaged when itcomes to nature and stuff like that.
(36:19):
So I think healing collective trauma givesus actually the energy to deal with the
crisises that we are currently facing.
And the sooner we look into it,I think the less crisises we
need and we actually can startbuilding more flourishing futures.
Laura May (36:36):
Wonderful and aspirational.
If you could give one recommendationto our listeners today as individuals
who are experiencing collective trauma,or as practitioners and mediators
that will be working with peoplethat deal with collective trauma,
what would that recommendation?
Adrian Wagner (36:55):
Yeah, very easy question.
Laura May (36:57):
I'm just thinking this is the hardest questions ever.
I think, I think I've been meaner to youthan any other guest I've had so far.
Adrian Wagner (37:03):
that's good.
No, I like it.
Laura May (37:04):
it's like a practice PhD defense.
Adrian Wagner (37:06):
yeah.
So, you know, probably, of course Icould play that save and say look
into the research, read our report.
Like, get yourself going with allthe knowledge that is out there.
Familiarize yourself a bit,but on a deeper level, I think
really, really look into and feelinto your ancestral lineages.
I think that's the one thing that Iwould give out as the one advice, like
(37:31):
connect, connect actually to the strengththat you have in your own lineage.
And try to feel into that as, as deepas possible, maybe together with others.
Because in my experience, like theintergenerational aspect is where
collective trauma starts and where there'sactually also a lot of research out there
and it's it's a fantastic experience.
(37:52):
Like to feel that you havethis whole stream behind you,
you have this whole stream.
Like there are actually people thatcame before you that suffered all these
addresses teeth, and they still survived.
And if they wouldn't have madeit, you wouldn't be there.
And if that stream of life is felt,if you realize that that stream
of life actually goes all the wayback, I think that's already a lot.
(38:15):
That would be the not soscientific answer probably.
Like of course there have been badbehavior done by generations before
us, and often we don't want to look atinto that as well, especially if those
people have been close to us, right?
Like my grandfather, he went to the war.
And I think the paradox here, and thebeauty here is as well to hold what
(38:36):
was not right as what was not right.
Because that first of all frees mefrom my own guilt of not looking at it.
And at the same time, like there is astream, even a stream of life, like that
flow through that I'm still connectedto and that I can stand in and that
gives me more strength to carry on withwhatever I want to do in this world.
Laura May (38:58):
Sorry, I'm, I'm gonna be mean again because as you're
saying this, It makes me think thatyou come from a reasonably secure
and probably privileged background?
Because not everyone willhave that experience of a
stream of love as you put it.
Whether it's because, for example,they're in a country where there's
no birth control or they're like anunwanted child, or they're rejected as
(39:20):
a child or abandoned, what have you.
Adrian Wagner (39:23):
Yeah.
So, so, so first, first of all.
Yes.
Yes.
I, I, I can, I can absolutely hear that.
And I would say, you know, like, Iwould counter that with, the idea
that we are so individual as we areis actually quite a Western concept.
And of course, Iunderstand the critic here.
The core idea of it is you are builtinto a web of life that goes back
(39:43):
and that goes forward maybe, and Ithink we lost that to some extent
in our very individualized countries.
And, and that's part I thinkof the problem as well.
It of course doesn't stop withgenetic families, so to speak.
I think we are up to building muchbroader communities and ideally we
are building like global communitiesand at the same time, I think a lot
(40:04):
of the trauma and a lot of the painis produced in the smallest unit,
or passed if you want it or not.
Like what you said earlier, if my momgot me, but actually she didn't want
to have me, it's something I maybehave to deal with all my lifelong
and have to come to terms with it.
Right?
There's a process of sensemaking ifI want or not, that needs to happen.
(40:27):
I'm not saying you have to lovethem, like, it's more of like, how
do you stay in a connection andhold what was wrong and still stay
in a resonance and in a connection?
So that, and of course that's thenon so scientific and probably more
personal answer to that question.
Laura May (40:45):
Well thank you so much for joining me today, Adrian.
And so for those who are interestedin learning more about your
work, where can they find you?
Adrian Wagner (40:53):
Yeah, definitely on LinkedIn.
Adrian Vagner, LinkedIn isthe best way to meet up.
I also want to mention the pocket projectwebsite that does this great and fantastic
work so you can find more informationthere as well and download the report.
And also want to mention more democracy,the N G O that we did that work together
in Germany, which is also interesting.
(41:15):
And it's more for German audiencesmaybe, but there also have
some English stuff out there.
Laura May (41:20):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you again, and until nexttime, this is Laura May with the Conflict
Tipping Podcast from mediate.com.
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