August 26, 2022 • 35 mins
In this episode Laura interviews Helen Winter, Co-Founder and CEO of R3SOLUTE.com, a program that strives to accelerate mutual integration of refugee and local communities and the rebuilding of refugee lives. R3SOLUTE aims to foster sustainable peace by reducing the social and economic costs of conflicts and maximizing the value of constructive debate for individuals, organizations, and communities.
Helen is an avid certified mediator and lawyer. She previously worked as a mediator with L. A. Superior Court and consultant with OnDeckMediation where her expertise included anti-discrimination law. In addition, her experience includes working with the United Nations Office of the Ombudsman and Mediation Services where she analyzed and addressed systemic issues within the organization. She is also an ambassador with International Justice Mission in Germany.
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Episode Transcript
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Laura (00:11):
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping podcast for media.com,
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and today Ihave with me Helen Winter, who has founded
a fantastic organization in Germany andwho is currently doing a fellowship with
the Harvard program on a negotiation.
(00:31):
So
Helen Winter (00:32):
welcome, Helen.
Thank you so much, Laura.
It's a pleasure.
I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you for the invitation.
Laura (00:39):
I'm very glad to have you here as well, especially as it turns out
you're on holiday at the moment in Italyand here I am asking you about work.
Very rude of me, and I'mgonna you some cookies.
I think
Helen Winter (00:50):
it's right.
I make time for you.
Thanks,
. Laura: Oh,
let's get the talking about workshopeither way so you can get back to your
holiday and hopefully doing some relaxing.
So tell me about this organizationthat you founded in Germany.
Cause I understand that you arehelping refugees with mediation skills.
(01:13):
Is that correct?
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, we founded an organizationabout five years ago based in Germany.
It's called Resolute.
And Resolute empowers refugees, andalso locals with conflict competency
skills and also peer mediation skills.
So that means that participants get to.
Learn about mediation, get to learn somemediation skills, and then hopefully
(01:35):
mediate among themselves about conflictsthat may arise in a refugee shelter
setting, but also with a neighborhoodwith the surrounding neighborhoods
of refugee shelters based in Germany.
Yeah.
Laura (01:46):
Fantastic.
And does that mean it'sthroughout Germany?
Cause you've just saidshelters in Germany, plural.
So how extensive is
Helen Winter (01:52):
this?
Yeah, so that means we started offin Berlin and now we are also active
in ha, NOFA and lower and brand work.
So it's it's getting alittle bit more extensive.
And also during c we started workingmore internationally and more digitally.
So that means we also did someonline workshops across the globe,
so to speak, to reach more people.
(02:13):
And that's amazing.
It's been quite a journey cuz we foundedthis in 2016 when the refugee crisis
or so-called refugee crisis Rose.
And I was actually studying atPepperdine, doing my master's there, my
L district resolution when it happened.
And I was thinking, how can I applysome of the tools that we learn
here to the actual crisis basedin Germany and what can I do to.
(02:36):
And so this whole idea evolved duringthat time while I was still studying.
And then I was doing a a traineeshipat the United Nations, and I talked
to a colleague about this idea of,implementing peer mediation mechanisms
in refugee shelters because a lotof people, there was a huge influx
of refugees coming into Germany.
I think it was.
1.2 million people and there wasa lot of need, and administration
(02:59):
failed on a lot of levels because alot of people came at the same time.
And some of the people that came in 2016are still living in refugee shelters.
And that is, Yeah, it's a, it'snot a great state, of course.
And now we have with the Ukraine War,we have more refugees coming, I think.
And another millionpeople came to Germany.
So while I was studying, I was thinking,I looked at a project from, I think
(03:23):
Miss Calver and she's doing peermediation in prisons based in California.
And I was thinking, thisis great and how can.
Use some of these tools and apply them to,to the setting for people, to learn some
of these skills and be empowered to do itthemselves, to self conflict themselves,
rather than having mediators come infrom the outset that might not have any
ideas about cultural norms or, difficultconversations among different cultures
(03:46):
and why not, have people do it themselves.
That's how it started essentially.
Yeah.
That's
Laura (03:52):
incredible.
And so when you were starting off,did you just turn onto a refugee
shelter one day and say, Hey guys,I'm here to teach you how to mediate.
What was the
Helen Winter (04:01):
situation?
That's a good question becausethat's actually how we did it and
it was pretty naive, of course,
So first we went so, so first we wentinto, we had language Cs at that time in
Germany, and I think they're still active.
Where people can come and,do offer language courses,
German courses to others.
And we went there and we justasked, would there be a need?
(04:22):
Would you be interested inlearning about conflict resolution?
And people said, Yeah, it wouldbe so interesting to do that.
And.
That's how it started.
And then we went into one of the sheltersand pretty naively just sat there with
a booth and trying to advertise ourproject and nobody really was interested.
And we were like, Okay, howis this ever going to work?
Because people were, a,it's a frustrating scene.
(04:43):
You must imagine it's a crammed space.
Many people live together.
And coming from different ethnicgroups coming from different religions.
So it's a conflict proneenvironment in the first place,
and it's sometimes located inthe far outskirts of the cities.
Not a lot of people are around andthose that are around, unfortunately,
sometimes have a problem with refugeeshelters being there in the first place.
(05:05):
So it's quite, quite a tourist environmentand we just sat there and inviting people
to join and they were like, Who are you?
What do.
Once a week . And we were likewe do, we want to, give workshops
here and see how it goes.
And they were like, No.
And so we underst okay,that's not going how it works.
And and that's how we understood.
We have, So there's twothings that we learned.
(05:25):
One thing was we needrefugees in our team.
We want people who are interested inconflict resolution who are interested in
mediation, who are, taking responsibilityfor community members intrinsically.
And have them in our team.
And then the other thing is we haveto talk to the shelters management
and get them on board and convincethem about, what is mediation
does at work and things like that.
(05:46):
And there, there are managerswho are, happy about this,
learning about new things.
And there are othersthat say what is this?
So it was quite challenging.
It wasn't easy at all from the start.
And then slowly but surely we developeda method that, started to work and.
And it was only possible because ofhaving a team that you know that is
enthusiastic about the work we do andhaving people on board that care about.
(06:08):
The people because that'sessentially what it is about.
It's about the people.
It's about understanding their situation.
And I always say, because I alsogave trainings, I always say, I have
not had to flee my home country.
I have no idea what it's like and Icannot imagine what you've been through.
And but I'm here to give yousome of the tools of mediation.
(06:30):
Because this is something I'm familiarwith and my colleague, for example,
my co-train Moham here he knows whatit's like and he has been there.
, and now he's moved out of this shelter.
Now he's studying politics or what not.
And so this is The message wewanna build because we have to
build trust in the beginning ofa workshop with the participants.
Otherwise they don't come back.
(06:50):
And also because we want to betransparent about what we do.
And so that, but that, that, that's a goodquestion because in the beginning we were
just sitting there and nobody showed up.
And then, have a lot, lots of storieswhere people, where we would say, Okay,
the workshop starts at 10:00 AM and thenpeople showed up at 11 . And these are
things that you just get used to andthen, If you say the workshop starts at
10, the workshop will really start later.
(07:11):
It's fine.
It's okay.
We'll just prepare.
We'll do no, just be hang aroundand if people like the workshop,
they come back and they bringothers, then that's how it works.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, It was a lot of error.
Laura (07:25):
Yeah, it sounds I love this vision of you just sitting in a
booth at a refugee shelter beinglike, Beni ocean's really cool guys.
Helen Winter (07:31):
Yes.
, would you like it with my flyers?
, you need the people in theinside of the refugee shelter.
You need social workers that are trusted.
You need the management to beon board because they really
showed to the participants andto the residents of the shelter.
They showed them, Okay, youcan trust these guys and.
When they see us showing up again andagain every day, they understand, okay,
(07:53):
these, they are really serious about this.
They are not leaving us again.
Because a lot of people, as you knowalso from some of your research,
probably they're highly traumatized.
I 50% of the population is traumatizedand and somehow like a second trauma
for people to be placed into a camp.
And they think it's temporary.
There's no perspective.
They're not allowed to work.
(08:13):
They wanna do something.
So they, a lot of the them just wannado something and they're so happy
about, a training where they can becomepeer mediators because they think,
Okay, wow, now I have something to do.
Now I have I have a task, I havea purpose, and this is really
what it is about for people to.
Rebuild their lives in a way whereit's of course difficult and everything
(08:33):
starts from scratch and you don't know,or they don't know if they can go back
home or if they have to stay in Germany.
And so for them to get sometools to strengthen their also
self-efficacy, I think is so paramount.
And this is also why we do thiswork and why we have this approach.
It's like a bottom up approachrather than top down where you
say, This is not how you wouldenvision a typical mediation course.
(08:57):
In the beginning we were very academicabout this and we had our, everything
written down the entire training program.
And we were like, Okay, thisis this is what we know.
This is how it was at Pepperdine.
This is how it was.
Another team member was like, Columbia,this is how it was at Columbia.
This is was how it was at Chatty Medmedical school, and then we came and we,
and , it's completely we don't need that.
(09:19):
It's a, it's something that from ouracademic mindset doesn't work in this
field because you have many challengeslike language barriers, like different
cultures and traumatized individuals.
And it's so hard tobring everybody on board.
And the key was really to simplifyit in a way that it would become a
yeah, an approach where people try.
And it's highly interactive and it'sa role play based the project like it
(09:42):
is of course, also in other courses.
But this one is based onconflicts that occur in a refugee
setting, in a refugee shelter.
And they are developed withour refugee colleagues.
. And also with the participants, theydeveloped the conflicts themselves and
they, for example, one day we broughta role play to the group and they
said can we just do our own conflict?
And then this is something we would doand say, Yes, of course, because this, if
(10:04):
this is adding value to you and you wannadiscuss the conflict that's going on right
now, then who are we to say no to this?
Of course.
And that's the approachto, to have people.
So bring in what they know aboutmediation and have them, add to the
conversation and to the training.
For example, a lot of people from Syriaknow about elder dispute resolution
and so they are somewhat familiar withthe concept of dispute resolution.
(10:27):
And that's something, that's so valuableand we will be the last people to say,
No, don't use that because we are sohappy that they're interested and that
they want to learn this and that theyare showing up because it's so hard.
Get motivated when you have asituation like this in your life.
I could possibly notimagine what it's like.
So we are really thankful aboutthat when people come and when
(10:48):
they're interested in the training.
Yeah.
It
Laura (10:51):
sounds brilliant and I love what you just stressed
here as well about the bottom upapproach and really tailoring it.
Cuz I think that could sometimesget lost in the noise when we think
about mediation trainings and thatsort of corporate style of training.
Like it's not necessarilythe thing that's gonna work.
With refugees in these particular.
Exactly.
And I find it really interestingas well, how you mentioned the
(11:12):
role of elder mediation in Syriabecause of course there's lots of
different heritages of mediation anddispute resolution around the world.
Have you seen any other tools orparticular styles that are actually
popped up and you're like, Oh, thisis actually really interesting.
Helen Winter (11:25):
Oh yes.
That's something that's so interesting.
We have had many situations wherewe were surprised what works.
For example later we set up amediation clinic and the peer
mediators get to work in this clinic.
And we had one peer mediatorwho was mediating between.
To families and it was about the childrenalways fighting, but it had gotten to a
(11:47):
point that the parents were not talkingto each other anymore and were also
fighting about, Oh you don't know how toeducate your children, in that manner.
And so it was quite atough conflict and he was.
Invited to one of their rooms.
It's not an apartment, it's a room.
And he was there to, talkto them about this conflict.
(12:07):
And he told us about how it wentand it went on for hours and hours.
. So he was talking to these, tofamilies for hours and hours.
And they weren't ableto come to a solution.
They didn't want to dealwith the conflict anymore.
And then eventually he told me, Okay,so what I did, Helen, him, was I just
refused any food that was offered to me.
And any drink tea, I refused everything.
(12:30):
I just said, Okay, you know whatguys, if I'm, if you're not going to,
work with me here, I'm not going to.
What you offer me as your guest . Andas the mediator being the authority
person in the room, the parties had, werefaced with this a fall of a guest, not
accepting what they prepared for him.
And so they tried to find ways to be more,at least collaborative, to come to an new.
(12:53):
And so it's funny because how thesetraditional norms like having dinner,
Or not accepting tea how that works.
So that was one thing Ifound very interesting.
It's always about things like that.
Also like trying to find, to createvalue through through friendship,
through in inviting people.
We had another case it waswith three women from Angola.
, and and they came, theyactually came to an agreement.
(13:16):
Then they said, we don't want toplace the responsibility on the peer
mediator because we think that ifwe agree to this agreement, the peer
mediator has all this responsibility,and what if we don't stick to it?
So we because they didn't wantto make a written agreement, and
I was like, Okay, you don't haveto make a written agreement.
It's a very western approach to agreement.
What are other things you can think about?
(13:38):
And then they said, how about wejust swear by the Bible that we will
stick to this agreement so we canload the responsibility up on God.
And I was like love that . Love it.
Thanks.
You can do that.
Of course.
And it's things like these.
Where I know probably otherswould say why is this media, can
we still call this mediation?
(13:59):
But I think it, it is the only way forpeople to really you know to be able to
design the process themselves and to allowfor this sort of flexibility that works.
Because in the end of theday, Nobody has helped.
If we say, Okay, it hasto be a written agreement.
You have to do phase oneto five if you don't do it.
But that's not our approach.
(14:19):
So this is hopefully touchingup on your question on how
it's different, no, it's great.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
And
Laura (14:24):
I love this example that you've just given.
And so if I may ask, can you tell me aboutthe funding model for your organization?
Do you do all
Helen Winter (14:32):
of this work for.
No.
So yeah, in the beginning we havedone this work for free, but then
we realized, it's not sustainablebecause we have trainers and the team
grew and we want them to also be conscompensated for the work because they're
mediators, they're psychologists.
And also our refugee co mediatorswho are trained by us, they also
want to get something for their work.
(14:53):
And We started off by actuallypretty entrepreneurial.
We applied for for grant it was like acompetition, a social entrepreneurship
competition based in Germany.
And we got our first fundingand it was like, I think it was
40,000 euros and we could do.
A lot with that in thebeginning after the pilot phase.
And we were super, super lucky to receivethat funding cuz it was a competition,
(15:15):
I think with 500 social startups.
Wow.
And that's how it we were able tohit the ground running, so to speak.
And and from then on we wereable to work on a finance model.
And since this was something that, thatthe team, none of us had done before.
Was super unsure if I shouldfound an organization.
I wouldn't have done thiswithout someone else.
And the team who told me,I've studied business.
(15:37):
I can help you.
We can do a market analysis.
Is there anybody elseout there who does this?
We need to think about a finance model.
So these were all really important pillarsin the beginning of how we came about.
But then with that we were ableto apply for certain grants and
fundings on a project basis.
And that's how our finance model works.
And some of them are by the government,others are by private companies.
(16:00):
So it's, but it's still always Difficultbecause in any organization, especially
social organization, ngo the fundingis always the tricky part because
everyone wants to do so much great work.
Yeah.
And there's only so little money,especially with crisises going on
with money, going elsewhere now.
And that's of course true.
And then also as an organizationwhen you're just founded and
(16:21):
you're a baby organization, nobody.
Trust you because you have to proveyourself being around for a while.
So I think the first government fundingwe only got after three years or so.
Wow.
Cause Germany and also especially Berlin.
Yeah.
They are quite they know the key playersand they are those bigger organizations
that always apply for the Grands andthen who's resolute, so it was, Yeah.
(16:45):
Anyway, And then, butthen also there were.
Ways to do it, especially workingwith other organizations that
had already been established alsothrough governmental funding.
And partnering up with them and thenknowing that one organization, for
example their scope was neighboringactivities between refugees and neighbors,
and they organized something likecooking events or soccer events and
(17:06):
things like that, which are all great.
And from, starting from there, we wereable to build something together and
to work with them together in a waythat we said, it's great that you do
these activities, and I'm sure peoplewill be able to connect through that.
And how about having a structureddialogue talking about difficult topics
such as, Why does somebody sit away fromme on the bus when I'm taking the bus?
(17:27):
Or why?
Do Germans always, Why or are theyalways bureaucratic in what they do?
, you're talking about these things.
So how we start our trainings actually.
I forgot to mention that we do astory sharing where we talk about
all these topics and where, in aforum of trust, we address some of
these sensitive issues that somepeople would not address in their.
(17:48):
Ever in their life because they wouldbe too afraid to ask things like that.
But why are you wearinga worker, for example?
. so in these structured conversationspeople get to ask about and also people
share their stories and also storiesof hardship, how they came to Germany,
what happened during the flight.
People, they have lost.
And so for the first time, bysharing these stories, they have
20 people listening to them.
(18:09):
And there, there's been studiesthat already prove that this is the
first step of feeling your trauma.
It's the first, the therapeutic step.
, if you have others, acknowledgewhat happened to you.
If you have others, acknowledgethe trauma you've suffered.
And it's, it can be very powerfulif someone tells a story about, for
example, being discriminated at thejob center for being a refugee or not
(18:32):
speaking the language and then havingothers say, Oh, this happened to me too.
Or, relating to that.
And so that's how we.
Try to start our trainings just becausewe wanna get those conversations,
we wanna address them, and we wannabuild trust through addressing them.
It's sometimes it's not easy.
And we also work of course withinterpreters who are, sometimes
(18:53):
they are the same person as theco-facilitators, the who are,
who also have a background and.
Yeah, who are a refugee.
And so they also translate because alot of these conversations are tricky
and and not everything is understood.
Our workshops are in German, verybasic, easy language, but we need.
(19:14):
To have some of that translated for sure.
So that everybodyunderstands and it's yeah.
It's quite difficult sometimesto moderate these sessions.
And you need many, you need a great teamto many trainers to be around and also
psychologists to be around because someof these things can be triggering and
our, it's not our goal to, to do therapy.
That's where we also say, cause we have.
(19:36):
An element in our trainings that'scalled mental health awareness.
And actually my brother, I don't knowif you knew that, he's also in our team,
So he's a medical doctor and he broughtthis element of mental health awareness.
To the curriculum because we found traumato be one of the key reasons for conflict,
(19:57):
for people to avoid conflict or stay awayfrom conflict or, engaging in conflict.
And and there are not a lot ofprograms out there that raise
awareness on mental health.
And it's very stigmatized insome of these different cultures.
And, for example, people fromAfghanistan told me, in our.
Country.
If you go to a therapist,you're considered as crazy
(20:17):
and nobody would ever do that.
. And so we try to like,it's a very low threshold.
We try to say, Hey, this issomething that can be treated.
This is something biological,this is nothing to be ashamed of.
And then others hopefully shareit and say, Yes, I'm doing
therapy now and it's helping me.
And so this is the fir sort of firststep for people, to become aware of that.
And then we work withpartner organizations.
(20:39):
That are then specifically therefor treating the trauma adequately.
, which is not what we do.
We just raise awareness on it.
And it's within the conflict restitutionand the peer mediation training.
Like a, like a red thread?
It is, Yeah.
In the curriculum.
Yeah.
Laura (20:54):
Fantastic.
And if I should justmaybe wonder something.
When you are working with refugeesand they're all sharing these stories
and these traumas, what have you,are we talking about refugees from
different countries all comingtogether in the same group and
discussing these shared experiences?
Is that.
How the
Helen Winter (21:09):
workshops are structured.
Yes.
That's how it's structured.
And it changed many times because inthe beginning we had only, we allowed
only two language groups, say peoplespeaking far or diary or past and Arabic.
. And then we said so peoplefrom Syria or Afghanistan.
And then we said, That we canhandle because we have two
translations at the same time.
And sometimes we could separate thegroup, which we did many times because
(21:32):
it's very disturbing and noisy andthere are children running around.
People are, frustrated.
They always have to wait for the othertranslation and but that's somehow work.
But then, You can't planwho's coming to the training.
We try to collaborate as closely aspossible with the shelters management
and the social workers, but, and theyhave a list and they write everything
(21:52):
down and they say, Okay, these are thepeople, But then others might show up
and then, yeah, it's, You can't knowin the beginning of the workshop.
How many language groups will be there,or how many languages will be present.
And so eventually we had even aworkshop and it was just a, it
was a workshop just for women.
And a women's shelter.
And we had so many different languagesgroups and that they all wanted to
(22:13):
participate, that we said, Okay.
We have to be flexible.
Now, we will just work also with someof the social workers present in the
shelter that might be able to translate.
We will integrate them so we can't,not going to exclude people from
the, And yes, we only broughtthese two translators, but.
Yeah, this is, we'regonna deal with this now.
So it's, this is the trickiest part,I think because you can't plan that
(22:37):
well it's not as you've mentioned inthe corporate world, where you know
exactly who's going to be there.
You have their, and then you training.
It's really okay you, who'sgoing to be there, but then
it's going to be different.
Laura (22:49):
fantastic.
Helen Winter (22:50):
It always works.
It somehow it works.
I, yeah.
I love that.
Cause
Laura (22:56):
I think it really reflects that you internalize the flexibility
of mediation in terms of the approachyou're taking to these shelters
and bringing groups together.
So massive kudos and that.
Helen Winter (23:05):
And so I now wanna
Laura (23:07):
ask, because obviously you're doing, you're finishing your PhD right
now, and I understand there's a connectionbetween your research and Resolute.
So what is that connection?
What are
Helen Winter (23:15):
you working.
Yeah when I started Resolute, I wasthinking, we have to do impact measurement
anyways and we have to understandhow it works and how it can work.
And so I started thinking aboutdoing a PhD after I've started
working in the organization.
And, I was already, I was still employedat a university actually, and then I
talked to a professor about this ideaand she said that's a great idea.
(23:39):
If you wanna, just link it.
And I was thinking yeah,that, that could be cool.
Yeah.
And so the research is essentiallyhow a peer mediation training and
setting up a peer mediation cliniccan be adapted in a way that it works.
And also conceptualized in a way that it.
Sustainably working with somany different parties and
(24:00):
participants in different cultures.
And it's a highlyqualitative research project.
So it's qualitative analysis basedon the grounded theory methodology
taking from the social sciences.
And and I, my background is inlaw, so for me, this was on you.
How do I do interviews?
How do I do field observations?
How do I, apply this methodology?
And so I had to.
(24:21):
Dig into that and understand howto compose such a research project
while at the same time being afacilitator in the field and and
lo and loving the experience.
That's how it came about.
And , I've done many of these trainings.
I've observed, I've, done groupinterviews, things like that.
And essentially what I always saw,what the pattern was, because with
(24:43):
grounded theory it's that you collectdata and then . It's a method that
drew out the data that you analyze.
A theory emerges.
I'm not sure if youare familiar with that.
It's a very, Yeah.
Laura (24:54):
It's just inductive logic, basically.
Yes, absolutely.
Figure
Helen Winter (24:58):
out the theory based on what yes.
And then my PhD went into the directionof understanding what actually motivates
people to, to do something like thisand how can we all work together
to do this and to make it work.
And the theme, the overarchingtheme, Actually that people
are striving, participants arestriving for self-efficacy.
(25:18):
and this training fosterstheir self-efficacy.
Because.
The ones that are doing it and thenbecoming peer mediators are also the
ones, interestingly, that are movingout of the shelter and that are finding
an apartment and that are findinga job and that are going back into
the shelter doing the mediations.
And I think it's because humanbeings intrinsically have.
And it's, it's proven.
If we look at Victor Franca studies thatare done there and the concentration camp,
(25:42):
the people want a purpose in their life.
. And it can be through work, itcan be through love, or it can
even be found in suffering.
And I think that, Our participants, theyfind a purpose in having something to do.
First of all I'm not sayingit can only be peer mediation.
I think it can, of course
Laura (25:58):
really answer.
It's
Helen Winter (26:00):
actually the purpose of life.
Exactly.
And but then having this other theme of,charity, promoting charity and being their
fathers, helping others in the, in theirrefugee shelter, having residents come
to you asking you about their conflict,helping them, it, it is very gratifying.
And this experience foster.
This motivation and this purpose andbrings people back to life wanting
to reclaim their lives in a way.
(26:21):
I Now it sound sounds so dramatic.
I don't wanna make it sound that dramatic.
You do.
It is dramatic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this what I've found and what thetheme was really and I found that so
interesting cuz I first thought Mel maybe.
They join because they wanna gainpower, because you could also
look at it in a negative way.
Okay.
Why do people wanna become apeer mediator in a community?
(26:41):
Oh, maybe they want to be more powerful.
Maybe they want to be the spokesperson,but it's not that it's really.
Taking responsibility for thecommunity, having a purpose being
there for others, helping othersout in difficult situations.
So I really saw a link betweenactually ADR and self-efficacy.
And it's something that Iwanna look into further also.
(27:03):
Beyond my PhD because I think it canbe an empowering tool in any setting
for people if it's dialogue work orif it's a story sharing, to connect
with these tools of ADR and to alsothen get back on track and, you Yeah.
Take on some of that selfdetermination back into your life.
So amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so
Laura (27:23):
has there been anything in your research that really surprised you?
Or confused you , and you're lookingat going, What's happening here?
Helen Winter (27:31):
There, there were many surprising things in my research
just because I was wonderinghow can that be the outcome?
Because I was thinking, I'm looking at aprogram, I'm changing it, I'm adapting it.
It's something that.
It, it's such a strange, surprisingoutcome to say give the power to the
people, have them say, and in theprogram, how are the role gonna look like?
(27:53):
How is it gonna be structured?
And basically have the participantscreate the programs themselves,
have the participants create theprocess of mediations themselves in
a way that, of course, we guide andthat we give guidance and so on.
But it's not, That we say, Okay, thisis how it's going to be and then this
is going, how it's going to work.
And I think it was, now it's, lookingback it's not surprising anymore,
(28:16):
but back then it was so surprising.
But now it's like one of thesethings that totally makes sense
and you think such an easy idea.
How can it, how can it be somehow?
Not like that, but it, Yeah.
Yeah.
But looking back, it's not surprising,but in that moment I was thinking, Okay.
Yeah, but it isn't surprising cuz youwant them to take away something and to.
(28:38):
, we had participants, they, they sharewhat's happening in their lives.
For example, one woman, a woman,she was from Afghanistan and she
had a a dispute with her brotherwho was still in Afghanistan.
. And it was quite hard becauseshe said he thinks now that I'm
Germany basically money is growingon trees, , I can send back money
(28:59):
every week and there's nothing here.
And I'm in this shelter and I cannotwork and I haven't learned how to
read or write and I'm so thankfulthat I can now learn something here.
And I don't need to read roleplays.
I get their instructions verbally.
And I'm learning something.
In me already that I had the nature ofbeing a piece, but I had the emotional,
(29:20):
intelligent, or capacity, whatever youwanna name it, empathy, and now I'm in
the workshop and I can hopefully takesomething of that away and apply it to
my own life and talk to my brother again.
And then we played out this conflictbetween her and her brother, and she.
Wanted to be the brother.
And she said it's so eyeopening to methat he doesn't know what it's like
(29:41):
here and putting myself in his position.
And so those were the kind ofsurprising moments for me that
looking back aren't surprising.
But in that moment you'relike, Wow, that's true.
That, that is so fascinating.
And.
. Yes.
A lot of women from Afghanistanprobably have never been in a
workshop before, unfortunately.
And it's also takes a lot ofcourage to say, Okay, I'm gonna go.
(30:04):
And that was actually also funny.
I think this idea betweengender imbalance, right?
That you would think it's alwaysmen who show up and it's it
also depends on the culture.
So for example, we had a workshop andit was just Syrian men and none of them
brought their wives and Afghan women.
And they brought, some ofthem, brought their husbands.
(30:25):
So it was really funny.
And then the Syrian men said, Howcome, you are allowed to be here?
And then they said just bring your wives.
You'll see it.
It's going to be fine.
They said no, we, it's maybe ifthere was a workshop just for them.
And then at the end of thetraining, the Afghan women's were
making fun of the Syrians and.
Did something happen or did somethinghappen between us that we, that we
(30:46):
should not be in this room together?
Because that was theirfear, that something Yeah.
And they were like yeah, you're right.
No, but still.
Yeah and also that was surprising to me.
I would also think yeah with Afghanwomen, you would not think that
they are this progressive, but insome ways it's always a surprise.
You can never prepare.
Yeah, I'm also very unfamiliar with withthe cultures and I'm learning it by doing
(31:08):
the work, and I'm so happy to a colleaguenext to me that can also sometimes
culturally translate what I'm saying.
, especially when you have elderly men.
From, for example, there was one elderlyman also from I think North Syria.
And he was a teacher and he fromthe beginning, didn't like that
we were all young, and someof us were female and he was.
(31:30):
Saying I mean he, he was just being verydifficult throughout the entire training
and there was a sort of an evolution inhis mindset and you could really see it
that only to the very end, he startedrespecting us and then he became one
of the most active people promoting it,promoting mediation to the residents.
And there was a summer event and there wasa little booth, and then he was the one
(31:55):
saying you should try peer mediation, you.
I got there and then somebody aska que ask him a question of the
other residents and he's Oh, Idon't know the answer to this one.
You should ask the boss.
And he pointed at me and I waslike, Wow that's transition.
Cause before you didn'trespect me at all as a woman.
And that's, and these arethe really cool moments.
That are surprising and that are, it'sa it's an evolution and it's not, we
(32:19):
don't say we're gonna change a mindset.
This is just something, it's given andwe work with what's there and , sometimes
it can, you can feel, you feel a littlebit lost, but then you get back on track.
And then these are the funny momentswhere Then in the, eventually you
started respecting us as a team.
Laura (32:38):
No, it's great when your fiercest critics become your
fiercest allies or advocates, right?
It's yeah, I definitelygot something right here.
Fantastic.
Like gold
. Helen Winter: And so I think
that, a number of people listen to this are gonna be wondering,
you've mentioned that you've gotcolleagues, you've got partners.
Are you looking for more partners orif people wanna do work, what you are
doing in their respective countries?
(32:59):
There's a refugee camp, likea block from where I live.
Can they reach out to you or are you
Helen Winter (33:04):
looking part Yes, absolutely.
I would love to hear from them andthey can feel, everyone can feel
free to reach out to me and it'salways great to, to find people
who are motivated to wanna do this.
And wanna maybe get some ideas on whatto do, what not to do, especially how to
Laura (33:22):
facilitate the
Helen Winter (33:24):
process.
And and in terms of partners we arealways super happy to collaborate and
yeah, that, so we are very open and I'msure we can post somewhere my email in
the description and then happy to talk.
Yes.
Amazing.
That sounds great.
And yeah, so we'll
Laura (33:42):
grab your email and is there any other way that you can be reached
and where do people find you, Helen?
How can they find.
Helen Winter (33:47):
I am very valuable.
Email is the best way to find me.
I'm right now of course finishingup my PhD, so I'll be a little bit
down under and thankfully to a reallygreat colleague of mine operations
go on very well on the ground.
. And and without her, it would beimpossible for me to write my,
to focus on my thesis right now.
(34:07):
Also, if you go on our websiteand you write directly to us,
there's a little message button.
And then it will reach any of us andwe're happy to have a conversation.
And yes I'm super, super open for that.
Great.
And what's the
Laura (34:22):
website addressed for resolution?
Helen Winter (34:24):
It's resolute, but instead of the e it's a three.
Perfect.
Like the number three.
Yeah.
And so it's a bit confusing,but we thought it's cool.
When we found the organization , ourmotto was, respect, relate, resolve.
So it's r.
Those three
Laura (34:37):
are.
That's great.
That's good.
Plus, Yeah, you'll get somecredit from the nineties
Hackers using the three As an E.
Right.
, that's your real audience here.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me here today, Helen.
It's really been inspiring andinteresting and a pleasure to have you on.
So thank you.
And I feel like we will forsure give back correspondent.
And for everyone else looking,this is your host, Laura May.
(34:57):
Looking forward to you joiningus next time for the Conflict
Tipping Podcast from media.com.
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping podcast for media.com,
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and today Ihave with me Helen Winter, who has founded
a fantastic organization in Germany andwho is currently doing a fellowship with
the Harvard program on a negotiation.
(00:31):
So
Helen Winter (00:32):
welcome, Helen.
Thank you so much, Laura.
It's a pleasure.
I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you for the invitation.
Laura (00:39):
I'm very glad to have you here as well, especially as it turns out
you're on holiday at the moment in Italyand here I am asking you about work.
Very rude of me, and I'mgonna you some cookies.
I think
Helen Winter (00:50):
it's right.
I make time for you.
Thanks,
. Laura: Oh,
let's get the talking about workshopeither way so you can get back to your
holiday and hopefully doing some relaxing.
So tell me about this organizationthat you founded in Germany.
Cause I understand that you arehelping refugees with mediation skills.
(01:13):
Is that correct?
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, we founded an organizationabout five years ago based in Germany.
It's called Resolute.
And Resolute empowers refugees, andalso locals with conflict competency
skills and also peer mediation skills.
So that means that participants get to.
Learn about mediation, get to learn somemediation skills, and then hopefully
(01:35):
mediate among themselves about conflictsthat may arise in a refugee shelter
setting, but also with a neighborhoodwith the surrounding neighborhoods
of refugee shelters based in Germany.
Yeah.
Laura (01:46):
Fantastic.
And does that mean it'sthroughout Germany?
Cause you've just saidshelters in Germany, plural.
So how extensive is
Helen Winter (01:52):
this?
Yeah, so that means we started offin Berlin and now we are also active
in ha, NOFA and lower and brand work.
So it's it's getting alittle bit more extensive.
And also during c we started workingmore internationally and more digitally.
So that means we also did someonline workshops across the globe,
so to speak, to reach more people.
(02:13):
And that's amazing.
It's been quite a journey cuz we foundedthis in 2016 when the refugee crisis
or so-called refugee crisis Rose.
And I was actually studying atPepperdine, doing my master's there, my
L district resolution when it happened.
And I was thinking, how can I applysome of the tools that we learn
here to the actual crisis basedin Germany and what can I do to.
(02:36):
And so this whole idea evolved duringthat time while I was still studying.
And then I was doing a a traineeshipat the United Nations, and I talked
to a colleague about this idea of,implementing peer mediation mechanisms
in refugee shelters because a lotof people, there was a huge influx
of refugees coming into Germany.
I think it was.
1.2 million people and there wasa lot of need, and administration
(02:59):
failed on a lot of levels because alot of people came at the same time.
And some of the people that came in 2016are still living in refugee shelters.
And that is, Yeah, it's a, it'snot a great state, of course.
And now we have with the Ukraine War,we have more refugees coming, I think.
And another millionpeople came to Germany.
So while I was studying, I was thinking,I looked at a project from, I think
(03:23):
Miss Calver and she's doing peermediation in prisons based in California.
And I was thinking, thisis great and how can.
Use some of these tools and apply them to,to the setting for people, to learn some
of these skills and be empowered to do itthemselves, to self conflict themselves,
rather than having mediators come infrom the outset that might not have any
ideas about cultural norms or, difficultconversations among different cultures
(03:46):
and why not, have people do it themselves.
That's how it started essentially.
Yeah.
That's
Laura (03:52):
incredible.
And so when you were starting off,did you just turn onto a refugee
shelter one day and say, Hey guys,I'm here to teach you how to mediate.
What was the
Helen Winter (04:01):
situation?
That's a good question becausethat's actually how we did it and
it was pretty naive, of course,
So first we went so, so first we wentinto, we had language Cs at that time in
Germany, and I think they're still active.
Where people can come and,do offer language courses,
German courses to others.
And we went there and we justasked, would there be a need?
(04:22):
Would you be interested inlearning about conflict resolution?
And people said, Yeah, it wouldbe so interesting to do that.
And.
That's how it started.
And then we went into one of the sheltersand pretty naively just sat there with
a booth and trying to advertise ourproject and nobody really was interested.
And we were like, Okay, howis this ever going to work?
Because people were, a,it's a frustrating scene.
(04:43):
You must imagine it's a crammed space.
Many people live together.
And coming from different ethnicgroups coming from different religions.
So it's a conflict proneenvironment in the first place,
and it's sometimes located inthe far outskirts of the cities.
Not a lot of people are around andthose that are around, unfortunately,
sometimes have a problem with refugeeshelters being there in the first place.
(05:05):
So it's quite, quite a tourist environmentand we just sat there and inviting people
to join and they were like, Who are you?
What do.
Once a week . And we were likewe do, we want to, give workshops
here and see how it goes.
And they were like, No.
And so we underst okay,that's not going how it works.
And and that's how we understood.
We have, So there's twothings that we learned.
(05:25):
One thing was we needrefugees in our team.
We want people who are interested inconflict resolution who are interested in
mediation, who are, taking responsibilityfor community members intrinsically.
And have them in our team.
And then the other thing is we haveto talk to the shelters management
and get them on board and convincethem about, what is mediation
does at work and things like that.
(05:46):
And there, there are managerswho are, happy about this,
learning about new things.
And there are othersthat say what is this?
So it was quite challenging.
It wasn't easy at all from the start.
And then slowly but surely we developeda method that, started to work and.
And it was only possible because ofhaving a team that you know that is
enthusiastic about the work we do andhaving people on board that care about.
(06:08):
The people because that'sessentially what it is about.
It's about the people.
It's about understanding their situation.
And I always say, because I alsogave trainings, I always say, I have
not had to flee my home country.
I have no idea what it's like and Icannot imagine what you've been through.
And but I'm here to give yousome of the tools of mediation.
(06:30):
Because this is something I'm familiarwith and my colleague, for example,
my co-train Moham here he knows whatit's like and he has been there.
, and now he's moved out of this shelter.
Now he's studying politics or what not.
And so this is The message wewanna build because we have to
build trust in the beginning ofa workshop with the participants.
Otherwise they don't come back.
(06:50):
And also because we want to betransparent about what we do.
And so that, but that, that, that's a goodquestion because in the beginning we were
just sitting there and nobody showed up.
And then, have a lot, lots of storieswhere people, where we would say, Okay,
the workshop starts at 10:00 AM and thenpeople showed up at 11 . And these are
things that you just get used to andthen, If you say the workshop starts at
10, the workshop will really start later.
(07:11):
It's fine.
It's okay.
We'll just prepare.
We'll do no, just be hang aroundand if people like the workshop,
they come back and they bringothers, then that's how it works.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, It was a lot of error.
Laura (07:25):
Yeah, it sounds I love this vision of you just sitting in a
booth at a refugee shelter beinglike, Beni ocean's really cool guys.
Helen Winter (07:31):
Yes.
, would you like it with my flyers?
, you need the people in theinside of the refugee shelter.
You need social workers that are trusted.
You need the management to beon board because they really
showed to the participants andto the residents of the shelter.
They showed them, Okay, youcan trust these guys and.
When they see us showing up again andagain every day, they understand, okay,
(07:53):
these, they are really serious about this.
They are not leaving us again.
Because a lot of people, as you knowalso from some of your research,
probably they're highly traumatized.
I 50% of the population is traumatizedand and somehow like a second trauma
for people to be placed into a camp.
And they think it's temporary.
There's no perspective.
They're not allowed to work.
(08:13):
They wanna do something.
So they, a lot of the them just wannado something and they're so happy
about, a training where they can becomepeer mediators because they think,
Okay, wow, now I have something to do.
Now I have I have a task, I havea purpose, and this is really
what it is about for people to.
Rebuild their lives in a way whereit's of course difficult and everything
(08:33):
starts from scratch and you don't know,or they don't know if they can go back
home or if they have to stay in Germany.
And so for them to get sometools to strengthen their also
self-efficacy, I think is so paramount.
And this is also why we do thiswork and why we have this approach.
It's like a bottom up approachrather than top down where you
say, This is not how you wouldenvision a typical mediation course.
(08:57):
In the beginning we were very academicabout this and we had our, everything
written down the entire training program.
And we were like, Okay, thisis this is what we know.
This is how it was at Pepperdine.
This is how it was.
Another team member was like, Columbia,this is how it was at Columbia.
This is was how it was at Chatty Medmedical school, and then we came and we,
and , it's completely we don't need that.
(09:19):
It's a, it's something that from ouracademic mindset doesn't work in this
field because you have many challengeslike language barriers, like different
cultures and traumatized individuals.
And it's so hard tobring everybody on board.
And the key was really to simplifyit in a way that it would become a
yeah, an approach where people try.
And it's highly interactive and it'sa role play based the project like it
(09:42):
is of course, also in other courses.
But this one is based onconflicts that occur in a refugee
setting, in a refugee shelter.
And they are developed withour refugee colleagues.
. And also with the participants, theydeveloped the conflicts themselves and
they, for example, one day we broughta role play to the group and they
said can we just do our own conflict?
And then this is something we would doand say, Yes, of course, because this, if
(10:04):
this is adding value to you and you wannadiscuss the conflict that's going on right
now, then who are we to say no to this?
Of course.
And that's the approachto, to have people.
So bring in what they know aboutmediation and have them, add to the
conversation and to the training.
For example, a lot of people from Syriaknow about elder dispute resolution
and so they are somewhat familiar withthe concept of dispute resolution.
(10:27):
And that's something, that's so valuableand we will be the last people to say,
No, don't use that because we are sohappy that they're interested and that
they want to learn this and that theyare showing up because it's so hard.
Get motivated when you have asituation like this in your life.
I could possibly notimagine what it's like.
So we are really thankful aboutthat when people come and when
(10:48):
they're interested in the training.
Yeah.
It
Laura (10:51):
sounds brilliant and I love what you just stressed
here as well about the bottom upapproach and really tailoring it.
Cuz I think that could sometimesget lost in the noise when we think
about mediation trainings and thatsort of corporate style of training.
Like it's not necessarilythe thing that's gonna work.
With refugees in these particular.
Exactly.
And I find it really interestingas well, how you mentioned the
(11:12):
role of elder mediation in Syriabecause of course there's lots of
different heritages of mediation anddispute resolution around the world.
Have you seen any other tools orparticular styles that are actually
popped up and you're like, Oh, thisis actually really interesting.
Helen Winter (11:25):
Oh yes.
That's something that's so interesting.
We have had many situations wherewe were surprised what works.
For example later we set up amediation clinic and the peer
mediators get to work in this clinic.
And we had one peer mediatorwho was mediating between.
To families and it was about the childrenalways fighting, but it had gotten to a
(11:47):
point that the parents were not talkingto each other anymore and were also
fighting about, Oh you don't know how toeducate your children, in that manner.
And so it was quite atough conflict and he was.
Invited to one of their rooms.
It's not an apartment, it's a room.
And he was there to, talkto them about this conflict.
(12:07):
And he told us about how it wentand it went on for hours and hours.
. So he was talking to these, tofamilies for hours and hours.
And they weren't ableto come to a solution.
They didn't want to dealwith the conflict anymore.
And then eventually he told me, Okay,so what I did, Helen, him, was I just
refused any food that was offered to me.
And any drink tea, I refused everything.
(12:30):
I just said, Okay, you know whatguys, if I'm, if you're not going to,
work with me here, I'm not going to.
What you offer me as your guest . Andas the mediator being the authority
person in the room, the parties had, werefaced with this a fall of a guest, not
accepting what they prepared for him.
And so they tried to find ways to be more,at least collaborative, to come to an new.
(12:53):
And so it's funny because how thesetraditional norms like having dinner,
Or not accepting tea how that works.
So that was one thing Ifound very interesting.
It's always about things like that.
Also like trying to find, to createvalue through through friendship,
through in inviting people.
We had another case it waswith three women from Angola.
, and and they came, theyactually came to an agreement.
(13:16):
Then they said, we don't want toplace the responsibility on the peer
mediator because we think that ifwe agree to this agreement, the peer
mediator has all this responsibility,and what if we don't stick to it?
So we because they didn't wantto make a written agreement, and
I was like, Okay, you don't haveto make a written agreement.
It's a very western approach to agreement.
What are other things you can think about?
(13:38):
And then they said, how about wejust swear by the Bible that we will
stick to this agreement so we canload the responsibility up on God.
And I was like love that . Love it.
Thanks.
You can do that.
Of course.
And it's things like these.
Where I know probably otherswould say why is this media, can
we still call this mediation?
(13:59):
But I think it, it is the only way forpeople to really you know to be able to
design the process themselves and to allowfor this sort of flexibility that works.
Because in the end of theday, Nobody has helped.
If we say, Okay, it hasto be a written agreement.
You have to do phase oneto five if you don't do it.
But that's not our approach.
(14:19):
So this is hopefully touchingup on your question on how
it's different, no, it's great.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
And
Laura (14:24):
I love this example that you've just given.
And so if I may ask, can you tell me aboutthe funding model for your organization?
Do you do all
Helen Winter (14:32):
of this work for.
No.
So yeah, in the beginning we havedone this work for free, but then
we realized, it's not sustainablebecause we have trainers and the team
grew and we want them to also be conscompensated for the work because they're
mediators, they're psychologists.
And also our refugee co mediatorswho are trained by us, they also
want to get something for their work.
(14:53):
And We started off by actuallypretty entrepreneurial.
We applied for for grant it was like acompetition, a social entrepreneurship
competition based in Germany.
And we got our first fundingand it was like, I think it was
40,000 euros and we could do.
A lot with that in thebeginning after the pilot phase.
And we were super, super lucky to receivethat funding cuz it was a competition,
(15:15):
I think with 500 social startups.
Wow.
And that's how it we were able tohit the ground running, so to speak.
And and from then on we wereable to work on a finance model.
And since this was something that, thatthe team, none of us had done before.
Was super unsure if I shouldfound an organization.
I wouldn't have done thiswithout someone else.
And the team who told me,I've studied business.
(15:37):
I can help you.
We can do a market analysis.
Is there anybody elseout there who does this?
We need to think about a finance model.
So these were all really important pillarsin the beginning of how we came about.
But then with that we were ableto apply for certain grants and
fundings on a project basis.
And that's how our finance model works.
And some of them are by the government,others are by private companies.
(16:00):
So it's, but it's still always Difficultbecause in any organization, especially
social organization, ngo the fundingis always the tricky part because
everyone wants to do so much great work.
Yeah.
And there's only so little money,especially with crisises going on
with money, going elsewhere now.
And that's of course true.
And then also as an organizationwhen you're just founded and
(16:21):
you're a baby organization, nobody.
Trust you because you have to proveyourself being around for a while.
So I think the first government fundingwe only got after three years or so.
Wow.
Cause Germany and also especially Berlin.
Yeah.
They are quite they know the key playersand they are those bigger organizations
that always apply for the Grands andthen who's resolute, so it was, Yeah.
(16:45):
Anyway, And then, butthen also there were.
Ways to do it, especially workingwith other organizations that
had already been established alsothrough governmental funding.
And partnering up with them and thenknowing that one organization, for
example their scope was neighboringactivities between refugees and neighbors,
and they organized something likecooking events or soccer events and
(17:06):
things like that, which are all great.
And from, starting from there, we wereable to build something together and
to work with them together in a waythat we said, it's great that you do
these activities, and I'm sure peoplewill be able to connect through that.
And how about having a structureddialogue talking about difficult topics
such as, Why does somebody sit away fromme on the bus when I'm taking the bus?
(17:27):
Or why?
Do Germans always, Why or are theyalways bureaucratic in what they do?
, you're talking about these things.
So how we start our trainings actually.
I forgot to mention that we do astory sharing where we talk about
all these topics and where, in aforum of trust, we address some of
these sensitive issues that somepeople would not address in their.
(17:48):
Ever in their life because they wouldbe too afraid to ask things like that.
But why are you wearinga worker, for example?
. so in these structured conversationspeople get to ask about and also people
share their stories and also storiesof hardship, how they came to Germany,
what happened during the flight.
People, they have lost.
And so for the first time, bysharing these stories, they have
20 people listening to them.
(18:09):
And there, there's been studiesthat already prove that this is the
first step of feeling your trauma.
It's the first, the therapeutic step.
, if you have others, acknowledgewhat happened to you.
If you have others, acknowledgethe trauma you've suffered.
And it's, it can be very powerfulif someone tells a story about, for
example, being discriminated at thejob center for being a refugee or not
(18:32):
speaking the language and then havingothers say, Oh, this happened to me too.
Or, relating to that.
And so that's how we.
Try to start our trainings just becausewe wanna get those conversations,
we wanna address them, and we wannabuild trust through addressing them.
It's sometimes it's not easy.
And we also work of course withinterpreters who are, sometimes
(18:53):
they are the same person as theco-facilitators, the who are,
who also have a background and.
Yeah, who are a refugee.
And so they also translate because alot of these conversations are tricky
and and not everything is understood.
Our workshops are in German, verybasic, easy language, but we need.
(19:14):
To have some of that translated for sure.
So that everybodyunderstands and it's yeah.
It's quite difficult sometimesto moderate these sessions.
And you need many, you need a great teamto many trainers to be around and also
psychologists to be around because someof these things can be triggering and
our, it's not our goal to, to do therapy.
That's where we also say, cause we have.
(19:36):
An element in our trainings that'scalled mental health awareness.
And actually my brother, I don't knowif you knew that, he's also in our team,
So he's a medical doctor and he broughtthis element of mental health awareness.
To the curriculum because we found traumato be one of the key reasons for conflict,
(19:57):
for people to avoid conflict or stay awayfrom conflict or, engaging in conflict.
And and there are not a lot ofprograms out there that raise
awareness on mental health.
And it's very stigmatized insome of these different cultures.
And, for example, people fromAfghanistan told me, in our.
Country.
If you go to a therapist,you're considered as crazy
(20:17):
and nobody would ever do that.
. And so we try to like,it's a very low threshold.
We try to say, Hey, this issomething that can be treated.
This is something biological,this is nothing to be ashamed of.
And then others hopefully shareit and say, Yes, I'm doing
therapy now and it's helping me.
And so this is the fir sort of firststep for people, to become aware of that.
And then we work withpartner organizations.
(20:39):
That are then specifically therefor treating the trauma adequately.
, which is not what we do.
We just raise awareness on it.
And it's within the conflict restitutionand the peer mediation training.
Like a, like a red thread?
It is, Yeah.
In the curriculum.
Yeah.
Laura (20:54):
Fantastic.
And if I should justmaybe wonder something.
When you are working with refugeesand they're all sharing these stories
and these traumas, what have you,are we talking about refugees from
different countries all comingtogether in the same group and
discussing these shared experiences?
Is that.
How the
Helen Winter (21:09):
workshops are structured.
Yes.
That's how it's structured.
And it changed many times because inthe beginning we had only, we allowed
only two language groups, say peoplespeaking far or diary or past and Arabic.
. And then we said so peoplefrom Syria or Afghanistan.
And then we said, That we canhandle because we have two
translations at the same time.
And sometimes we could separate thegroup, which we did many times because
(21:32):
it's very disturbing and noisy andthere are children running around.
People are, frustrated.
They always have to wait for the othertranslation and but that's somehow work.
But then, You can't planwho's coming to the training.
We try to collaborate as closely aspossible with the shelters management
and the social workers, but, and theyhave a list and they write everything
(21:52):
down and they say, Okay, these are thepeople, But then others might show up
and then, yeah, it's, You can't knowin the beginning of the workshop.
How many language groups will be there,or how many languages will be present.
And so eventually we had even aworkshop and it was just a, it
was a workshop just for women.
And a women's shelter.
And we had so many different languagesgroups and that they all wanted to
(22:13):
participate, that we said, Okay.
We have to be flexible.
Now, we will just work also with someof the social workers present in the
shelter that might be able to translate.
We will integrate them so we can't,not going to exclude people from
the, And yes, we only broughtthese two translators, but.
Yeah, this is, we'regonna deal with this now.
So it's, this is the trickiest part,I think because you can't plan that
(22:37):
well it's not as you've mentioned inthe corporate world, where you know
exactly who's going to be there.
You have their, and then you training.
It's really okay you, who'sgoing to be there, but then
it's going to be different.
Laura (22:49):
fantastic.
Helen Winter (22:50):
It always works.
It somehow it works.
I, yeah.
I love that.
Cause
Laura (22:56):
I think it really reflects that you internalize the flexibility
of mediation in terms of the approachyou're taking to these shelters
and bringing groups together.
So massive kudos and that.
Helen Winter (23:05):
And so I now wanna
Laura (23:07):
ask, because obviously you're doing, you're finishing your PhD right
now, and I understand there's a connectionbetween your research and Resolute.
So what is that connection?
What are
Helen Winter (23:15):
you working.
Yeah when I started Resolute, I wasthinking, we have to do impact measurement
anyways and we have to understandhow it works and how it can work.
And so I started thinking aboutdoing a PhD after I've started
working in the organization.
And, I was already, I was still employedat a university actually, and then I
talked to a professor about this ideaand she said that's a great idea.
(23:39):
If you wanna, just link it.
And I was thinking yeah,that, that could be cool.
Yeah.
And so the research is essentiallyhow a peer mediation training and
setting up a peer mediation cliniccan be adapted in a way that it works.
And also conceptualized in a way that it.
Sustainably working with somany different parties and
(24:00):
participants in different cultures.
And it's a highlyqualitative research project.
So it's qualitative analysis basedon the grounded theory methodology
taking from the social sciences.
And and I, my background is inlaw, so for me, this was on you.
How do I do interviews?
How do I do field observations?
How do I, apply this methodology?
And so I had to.
(24:21):
Dig into that and understand howto compose such a research project
while at the same time being afacilitator in the field and and
lo and loving the experience.
That's how it came about.
And , I've done many of these trainings.
I've observed, I've, done groupinterviews, things like that.
And essentially what I always saw,what the pattern was, because with
(24:43):
grounded theory it's that you collectdata and then . It's a method that
drew out the data that you analyze.
A theory emerges.
I'm not sure if youare familiar with that.
It's a very, Yeah.
Laura (24:54):
It's just inductive logic, basically.
Yes, absolutely.
Figure
Helen Winter (24:58):
out the theory based on what yes.
And then my PhD went into the directionof understanding what actually motivates
people to, to do something like thisand how can we all work together
to do this and to make it work.
And the theme, the overarchingtheme, Actually that people
are striving, participants arestriving for self-efficacy.
(25:18):
and this training fosterstheir self-efficacy.
Because.
The ones that are doing it and thenbecoming peer mediators are also the
ones, interestingly, that are movingout of the shelter and that are finding
an apartment and that are findinga job and that are going back into
the shelter doing the mediations.
And I think it's because humanbeings intrinsically have.
And it's, it's proven.
If we look at Victor Franca studies thatare done there and the concentration camp,
(25:42):
the people want a purpose in their life.
. And it can be through work, itcan be through love, or it can
even be found in suffering.
And I think that, Our participants, theyfind a purpose in having something to do.
First of all I'm not sayingit can only be peer mediation.
I think it can, of course
Laura (25:58):
really answer.
It's
Helen Winter (26:00):
actually the purpose of life.
Exactly.
And but then having this other theme of,charity, promoting charity and being their
fathers, helping others in the, in theirrefugee shelter, having residents come
to you asking you about their conflict,helping them, it, it is very gratifying.
And this experience foster.
This motivation and this purpose andbrings people back to life wanting
to reclaim their lives in a way.
(26:21):
I Now it sound sounds so dramatic.
I don't wanna make it sound that dramatic.
You do.
It is dramatic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And this what I've found and what thetheme was really and I found that so
interesting cuz I first thought Mel maybe.
They join because they wanna gainpower, because you could also
look at it in a negative way.
Okay.
Why do people wanna become apeer mediator in a community?
(26:41):
Oh, maybe they want to be more powerful.
Maybe they want to be the spokesperson,but it's not that it's really.
Taking responsibility for thecommunity, having a purpose being
there for others, helping othersout in difficult situations.
So I really saw a link betweenactually ADR and self-efficacy.
And it's something that Iwanna look into further also.
(27:03):
Beyond my PhD because I think it canbe an empowering tool in any setting
for people if it's dialogue work orif it's a story sharing, to connect
with these tools of ADR and to alsothen get back on track and, you Yeah.
Take on some of that selfdetermination back into your life.
So amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so
Laura (27:23):
has there been anything in your research that really surprised you?
Or confused you , and you're lookingat going, What's happening here?
Helen Winter (27:31):
There, there were many surprising things in my research
just because I was wonderinghow can that be the outcome?
Because I was thinking, I'm looking at aprogram, I'm changing it, I'm adapting it.
It's something that.
It, it's such a strange, surprisingoutcome to say give the power to the
people, have them say, and in theprogram, how are the role gonna look like?
(27:53):
How is it gonna be structured?
And basically have the participantscreate the programs themselves,
have the participants create theprocess of mediations themselves in
a way that, of course, we guide andthat we give guidance and so on.
But it's not, That we say, Okay, thisis how it's going to be and then this
is going, how it's going to work.
And I think it was, now it's, lookingback it's not surprising anymore,
(28:16):
but back then it was so surprising.
But now it's like one of thesethings that totally makes sense
and you think such an easy idea.
How can it, how can it be somehow?
Not like that, but it, Yeah.
Yeah.
But looking back, it's not surprising,but in that moment I was thinking, Okay.
Yeah, but it isn't surprising cuz youwant them to take away something and to.
(28:38):
, we had participants, they, they sharewhat's happening in their lives.
For example, one woman, a woman,she was from Afghanistan and she
had a a dispute with her brotherwho was still in Afghanistan.
. And it was quite hard becauseshe said he thinks now that I'm
Germany basically money is growingon trees, , I can send back money
(28:59):
every week and there's nothing here.
And I'm in this shelter and I cannotwork and I haven't learned how to
read or write and I'm so thankfulthat I can now learn something here.
And I don't need to read roleplays.
I get their instructions verbally.
And I'm learning something.
In me already that I had the nature ofbeing a piece, but I had the emotional,
(29:20):
intelligent, or capacity, whatever youwanna name it, empathy, and now I'm in
the workshop and I can hopefully takesomething of that away and apply it to
my own life and talk to my brother again.
And then we played out this conflictbetween her and her brother, and she.
Wanted to be the brother.
And she said it's so eyeopening to methat he doesn't know what it's like
(29:41):
here and putting myself in his position.
And so those were the kind ofsurprising moments for me that
looking back aren't surprising.
But in that moment you'relike, Wow, that's true.
That, that is so fascinating.
And.
. Yes.
A lot of women from Afghanistanprobably have never been in a
workshop before, unfortunately.
And it's also takes a lot ofcourage to say, Okay, I'm gonna go.
(30:04):
And that was actually also funny.
I think this idea betweengender imbalance, right?
That you would think it's alwaysmen who show up and it's it
also depends on the culture.
So for example, we had a workshop andit was just Syrian men and none of them
brought their wives and Afghan women.
And they brought, some ofthem, brought their husbands.
(30:25):
So it was really funny.
And then the Syrian men said, Howcome, you are allowed to be here?
And then they said just bring your wives.
You'll see it.
It's going to be fine.
They said no, we, it's maybe ifthere was a workshop just for them.
And then at the end of thetraining, the Afghan women's were
making fun of the Syrians and.
Did something happen or did somethinghappen between us that we, that we
(30:46):
should not be in this room together?
Because that was theirfear, that something Yeah.
And they were like yeah, you're right.
No, but still.
Yeah and also that was surprising to me.
I would also think yeah with Afghanwomen, you would not think that
they are this progressive, but insome ways it's always a surprise.
You can never prepare.
Yeah, I'm also very unfamiliar with withthe cultures and I'm learning it by doing
(31:08):
the work, and I'm so happy to a colleaguenext to me that can also sometimes
culturally translate what I'm saying.
, especially when you have elderly men.
From, for example, there was one elderlyman also from I think North Syria.
And he was a teacher and he fromthe beginning, didn't like that
we were all young, and someof us were female and he was.
(31:30):
Saying I mean he, he was just being verydifficult throughout the entire training
and there was a sort of an evolution inhis mindset and you could really see it
that only to the very end, he startedrespecting us and then he became one
of the most active people promoting it,promoting mediation to the residents.
And there was a summer event and there wasa little booth, and then he was the one
(31:55):
saying you should try peer mediation, you.
I got there and then somebody aska que ask him a question of the
other residents and he's Oh, Idon't know the answer to this one.
You should ask the boss.
And he pointed at me and I waslike, Wow that's transition.
Cause before you didn'trespect me at all as a woman.
And that's, and these arethe really cool moments.
That are surprising and that are, it'sa it's an evolution and it's not, we
(32:19):
don't say we're gonna change a mindset.
This is just something, it's given andwe work with what's there and , sometimes
it can, you can feel, you feel a littlebit lost, but then you get back on track.
And then these are the funny momentswhere Then in the, eventually you
started respecting us as a team.
Laura (32:38):
No, it's great when your fiercest critics become your
fiercest allies or advocates, right?
It's yeah, I definitelygot something right here.
Fantastic.
Like gold
. Helen Winter: And so I think
that, a number of people listen to this are gonna be wondering,
you've mentioned that you've gotcolleagues, you've got partners.
Are you looking for more partners orif people wanna do work, what you are
doing in their respective countries?
(32:59):
There's a refugee camp, likea block from where I live.
Can they reach out to you or are you
Helen Winter (33:04):
looking part Yes, absolutely.
I would love to hear from them andthey can feel, everyone can feel
free to reach out to me and it'salways great to, to find people
who are motivated to wanna do this.
And wanna maybe get some ideas on whatto do, what not to do, especially how to
Laura (33:22):
facilitate the
Helen Winter (33:24):
process.
And and in terms of partners we arealways super happy to collaborate and
yeah, that, so we are very open and I'msure we can post somewhere my email in
the description and then happy to talk.
Yes.
Amazing.
That sounds great.
And yeah, so we'll
Laura (33:42):
grab your email and is there any other way that you can be reached
and where do people find you, Helen?
How can they find.
Helen Winter (33:47):
I am very valuable.
Email is the best way to find me.
I'm right now of course finishingup my PhD, so I'll be a little bit
down under and thankfully to a reallygreat colleague of mine operations
go on very well on the ground.
. And and without her, it would beimpossible for me to write my,
to focus on my thesis right now.
(34:07):
Also, if you go on our websiteand you write directly to us,
there's a little message button.
And then it will reach any of us andwe're happy to have a conversation.
And yes I'm super, super open for that.
Great.
And what's the
Laura (34:22):
website addressed for resolution?
Helen Winter (34:24):
It's resolute, but instead of the e it's a three.
Perfect.
Like the number three.
Yeah.
And so it's a bit confusing,but we thought it's cool.
When we found the organization , ourmotto was, respect, relate, resolve.
So it's r.
Those three
Laura (34:37):
are.
That's great.
That's good.
Plus, Yeah, you'll get somecredit from the nineties
Hackers using the three As an E.
Right.
, that's your real audience here.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me here today, Helen.
It's really been inspiring andinteresting and a pleasure to have you on.
So thank you.
And I feel like we will forsure give back correspondent.
And for everyone else looking,this is your host, Laura May.
(34:57):
Looking forward to you joiningus next time for the Conflict
Tipping Podcast from media.com.
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