In this episode, Host, Laura May, talks with guests, Dr. Solveig Richter and Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal about Colombia as a case study for how conflict behaves and how conflict transforms itself. Topics discussed include:
- The role of language in the Peace Accords
- Security concerns
- Listening to local partners
- Psychological support
- Involving communities in the research and the final products
Connect with the Guests:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-barrios-sabogal-6a9440b6
https://mobile.twitter.com/LauraC_Barrios
https://www.linkedin.com/in/solveig-richter-b451b1193
https://mobile.twitter.com/SolveigRichter
About the Guests:
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal's bio:
Doctoral Researcher at the Peace Research Institute Frankfurt (PRIF) and Goethe Universität Frankfurt. Former Director of the Master’s Program in Conflict, Memory and Peace at Universidad del Rosario and former member of the Center for Conflict and Peace Studies of the same University. Master of Public Policy with a specialization in Conflict Studies and Management, Willy Brandt School of Public Policy, University of Erfurt, Germany. Bachelor Professional in government and international relations, Universidad Externado de Colombia. Her research interests cover gender, disarmament, demobilization and reintegration (DDR), democratization and peacebuilding in post-conflict countries.
Solveig Richter's bio: https://www.uni-erfurt.de/en/brandtschool/the-school/people/visiting-lecturers/prof-dr-solveig-richter Solveig Richter's bio and institutional profile:https://www.uni-leipzig.de/en/profile/mitarbeiter/prof-dr-solveig-richter
About host, Laura May, PhD:
Laura is a former Executive Director of the International Mediation Institute and a negotiation and mediation lecturer. Her doctoral research asked “in what ways does blame make villains in politics” and covered the gamut from literature studies and linguistics to psychology and neuroscience, victimology to political science. Her expertise includes emotions, polarization, blame, and international politics. Feel free to connect with her on LinkedIn or ResearchGate—or even both!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura May (00:11):
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping podcast from mediate.com,
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and todayI have with me two wonderful guests,
Laura Camilla Baral and Solveig RichterSolveig gets professor of international
relations and transnational politicsat the University of Lipsig Germany.
(00:34):
Co-editor of the German LanguageJournal for Peace and Conflict Research,
and is interested in post-conflictsocieties and peace building.
Louder is a PhD researcher at thePeace Research Institute of Frankfurt,
and former program director at theUniversity of Rosario in Bogata Colombia.
She's a lover of nature andrunning, but I've managed to
capture her here with me today.
(00:54):
So welcome to the both of you,
Solveig Richter (00:57):
Hello Laura from my site as well.
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal: Hello everyone. (01:00):
undefined
Laura May (01:01):
Yeah, it's great to have you here with me.
So I'm gonna jump straight on inbecause you've both done a lot of work
about conflict and post-conflict, andparticularly recently in Colombia.
So I wanna ask each of you, and I'llstart with Solveig, what makes Colombia
such a compelling case for you?
Solveig Richter (01:18):
that's a good question because I mean, I was
previously working a lot on theWestern Balkan regions on post-conflict
processes in the Western Balkans.
And I started to work at BrownSchool with lots of international
students, which broadened my horizon.
And then with the peace processstepping in in 2016, actually I get
the attention of the country, whichis in such a so to say, interesting
(01:42):
case to study for post-conflict peacebuilding with all its ups and down,
you know, with the referendum, theplebicito the negative vote on it.
And then I had a wonderful locationto have brilliant student, Laura
which were, yeah, I mean she was sokeen also to study this processes of
post-conflict reincorporation processes.
(02:03):
And so we, well, it was a wonderfulopportunity for me to step in and to
learn something about the country.
And I literally fell in love with notonly the country, with its people,
but also so to say with with thepeace processes such to study it.
So that was when I started to workon Colombia and why I do think
it's a super interesting case.
Laura May (02:22):
Incredible.
And what about you, Lara?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (02:26):
Yeah.
No, for me, it's super nice to havehere Solveig in this podcast because
I think we have different approaches.
She has more like the outsider view,which is highly interest interesting,
and also like important in thisprocesses and mine, which is like
the insider one, the local one.
So I do think like the.
(02:47):
Conflict in Colombia or the casestudy Colombia is very interesting
. historians might have very, alot of controversies about, what
happened and which is the yearof the beginning of the conflict.
But regardless that part, we willsay that is one of the longest armed
conflicts in at least in the region.
But in the middle of that andthis protected conflict, we have
(03:11):
held a strong, so I, I wouldn'tsay strong, but something like
moving democracy in the country.
So we have this, democracy and we,we are one of the strongest economies
or we were in the, in the region.
So how conflict.
It's like behaving with these goodindicators of country stability.
(03:33):
So I think it's a very, very yeah,useful case study to understand
how a conflict uh, behaves andhow a conflict transforms itself.
And with the peace process as, as Solveigalready said, I think we got the attention
of many, many scholars, includingmyself, local and international.
And it's because as she said, it's a,it, it was not only the huge event for
(03:58):
us as Colombia, when we got a lot ofa hope regarding like, we will change
this country and the situation and.
We recognize what has happened here inthe last or more than 50 years, and it
was really a window of opportunity, eh,to be really hopeful about our future.
(04:22):
And also because people startedto ask how, how was possible to
finally get an outcome, a peaceoutcome with the far gorilla, which
was yeah, since the 64, armed.
So how they changed like the arms to thepolitics and to the, um, civilian life.
So I think all of.
(04:45):
Research questions were very,very interesting and very
necessary in that moment.
And they are still very importantbecause what we have seen after the
peace agreement is unfortunately,in the beginning it was good because
all the violence rates diminished.
But now we have seen, again, how they'reincreasing other types of violence,
(05:09):
but still post-conflict violence.
So I think Colombia in all the phasesduring the conflict, during the peace
process, and now in the post agreement,I wouldn't say post-conflict, but
I will say post agreement phase isa very, very interesting case study
for the peace and conflict studies
Laura May (05:31):
field.
I find it really interesting howyou've raised almost two very different
puzzles here, because one is, itwas in conflict, and yet things are
moving and improving democraticallyand rights wise and otherwise.
So that's a really strange tension andreally interesting as you've raised.
And then the other hand you're like,oh, well now we're in this sort of
post agreement situation, but there'sperhaps problems with integration or
(05:53):
something that's leading to furtherconflict, if I understand correctly,
because I know you've both written acouple of papers along these lines and
I'm really interested to dig into those.
And so the one I would actuallylike to start with, you wrote a
paper together called Las Farianas,which was about integration of
specifically female FARC fightersback into, I guess, normal society.
(06:14):
I mean, how did that actually work?
What was it you were looking at there?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (06:19):
So I, I will start because that was my
thesis during the master and whichwas supervised by Solveig, and then
I will give her like the word, butour interest or or my particular
interest was because when we thinkabout war, we think mostly about men.
Men in war, because we have thisbinary conception of like, men are
(06:43):
violent perpetrators and they do war.
And on the other side we have womenas just like peaceful victims and Peace
builders, eh, but when you see in aconflict and in a projected conflict
like the Colombian one, you see that thisbinary, frame was totally challenged, by
(07:05):
these fighters, these female fighters,in the guerilla, not only in FARC, but
also in other groups, but particularlyin Farc, because mm, what I wanted
to see was like, okay, of course manypeople already have know, which were
the role of this former combatants, butwhat's happening now in the transition,
(07:28):
to peace and to this civilian role?
What's happening, now are theylosing all the agency or the Yeah,
the, the power they got within theguerrilla, or are they transforming it?
So in that paper we both explored,How was this transition from the war
roles to the peace roles of thesefemale former fire combatants and taking
(07:55):
into account that they were 30% of thegorilla members, it was important to us
to understand this female perspective,of the reintegration process.
It's also very acknowledged that duringthe this D D R progress, disarmament,
the mobilization and reintegrationprograms, the most difficult part is
(08:15):
the reintegration one, because it'sthat long term one that you need
them to get a job or, or to get allthe skills in order to come like a
civilian and to have a sustainablelife in this civilian environment.
So, what we have found so far was thatthey help many roles, important roles.
(08:39):
They also were in the combat.
They were not only like cooking, like ithappens in other groups, for instance, in
the family, military groups in Colombia.
But they had reallyimportant positions there.
Not the highest one.
I have to, to, to admit that, theynever went to the app like, it's
called in Spanish Style Mak,which is, it was like the highest
(09:02):
decision making instance in fart.
No, but they had in the local parts,some leading positions, which
have been transformed so far.
When you go to the places wherethey have been reintegrated or
reincorporated, because far doesn'tsay like reintegration, but
they use reincorporation, theyare using those skill to lead.
(09:27):
Many projects, productive projects,to run in the local politics, to
run their important leadershipstrategies in the communities.
So I think, that, that was importantto see how, at least in the beginning,
because I I'm talking like thispaper, we did research in 2018.
(09:48):
And so it was really in the beginning.
Just in the beginning.
So I think like my hypothesis nowis like this leadership has been
stranded, more in the past years.
But in the beginning it was like thatthey were transforming their skills
to act in a peaceful environment.
Solveig Richter (10:08):
I can step in and widen a little bit or broaden a little bit the
perspective because I mean, you raisedtwo important question Nora, right?
So, first of all, what's happening aftera conflict and how can it be that this
processes create new conflicts itself?
Right.
And I think we have tostop thinking in binaries.
We have to stop thinking in, okay, wehave a peace agreement and conflict
(10:30):
stops, and all these processes afterwardlead into one direction, right?
It's a linear thinking and it's like, yes,of course it's embedded in these northern
thinking of making peace agreements.
And that all is fine, but no, thelocal level is totally different.
We have networks, we havelong water term networks.
We have rebel governance during conflict.
So we have transitions at apolitical decision making level.
(10:54):
Do not mean that we have thesetransitions at local level.
Yes, we have completely differentincentives and completely political
structures, but still we have astrong continuity also from the war.
Starting with this paper, whichcreated our curiosity, right?
Because this creates also stronginterpersonal linkages, which provides
(11:15):
opportunities after war, right?
So we, it's this, this, thisperspective that everything falls
apart and that we created rightfrom the scratch and all this new,
it's not right at the local level.
And so what this paperless Arian gaveus at, or me at least, I mean Laura was
right, embedded from the beginning, butalso me, this perspective of, no, we have
(11:36):
to get rid of this binary or dichotomousunderstanding of war and peace.
But we have to look more intothe dynamics at local level.
What happens here?
I think this is also thislevel where exactly women can
have a transformative role.
Beyond any more symbolic, right.
I mean, of course we have strongtradition in Latinamerican and
(11:58):
Colombia of this machismo, and we havewomen in leadership positions, but
often this more symbolic positions.
Right.
Or often they have very symbolic roles.
But how this agency really bringsinto a transformation of conflict is
something that matters a lot and howespecially female leadership can step
(12:20):
in at local level in this transitionfrom a not always war, but we have also
areas of peace during war or duringviolent conflict into peace, but also
not full peace because we have ofcourse, societal conflict and continuous
so to say battles over the rightinterpretation or, or conflicts about
(12:41):
what's happening on the ground and thecontinuing of war economies, like, like
all that, that does not happen overnight.
Right.
Uh,
Laura May (12:50):
What a surprise.
What a surprise.
Solveig Richter (12:52):
Exactly.
So, and, and, and to look into thatblack box opening up and focusing
on one specific group of people andhow they contribute to peace building.
I think this is an enormous, academicinterest and we have to learn more.
And that's what Les FARs brought us into,
Laura May (13:09):
okay, look, that's really interesting and I wanna get onto
your second paper shortly or, orsorry, your recent paper shortly.
But I also just wanna find out fora moment cuz louder mentioned that
FARC prefer not to use the phrasingreintegration, but rather reincorporation,
which gives me some strange ideasabout either businesses or the body.
So what is actually thepolitics behind this framing?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal: Thanks for asking that because (13:33):
undefined
it gives me the opportunity toclarify this reincorporation term.
And it's like when we were or notwe uh, when, when they were in the
Havana process, in the negotiations,FARC said like, we don't want the same
process as the previous one has beenreally recognized worldwide for the d
(13:56):
d R processes, eh, mobilization andreintegration eh processes because we
have unfortunately had many, many factors.
Um, De mobilized.
And then there was a longprocess, institutionalized
process of reintegration.
The fart said, no, we don'twant the, the same process.
(14:17):
Because the previous collective processwas with the power military groups, which
of course were, like opposite to them.
And also because in these programs, theColombian government as a strategic, war
firm, they started to say people, lookof far and the other girl demobilized,
(14:38):
your family is waiting for you, or wardoesn't pay . And many, many people left
the gorilla, , with these programs.
And so they.
Thought like they were traitorsof the cause and of the gorilla.
So they say, we don't want to bemixed with these other people.
(14:59):
That was one of the reasons.
So we also won a collective projectwhen we say, and that was not only
with the term reincorporation, butalso with, we are not talking about
disarmament in the farts piece process.
But we are talking about they laying downthe weapons because that was their will.
They were not defeated on the bottle,but they wanted, there was a peace,
(15:23):
will, so they said , we are layingdown our weapons, which is in Spanish.
So as they were saying, we aredoing this on Voluntary basis.
We are not saying that our collectiveproject and our political project will
be now, over on the country we aremobilizing too the political project.
(15:47):
So they said , you, it's goingto be collective because we
are going to have a party.
We are transforming thegorilla into a political party.
And the third point was, we don't wantthis to be without the communities.
If you see the peace agreementyou'll see communities are in
the middle of the peace agreement.
Regarding the D D R process is only forfarc, but the other ones they content,
(16:11):
many, many measures for the community.
So that's why they said, okay,this process is going to be the
reincorporation, of FARC into thecommunities because we never left them.
We were with them during the war also,which is related to these Revel orders
that we are going to speak later on.
But yeah, that's why they decidedto put this, term, which is very
(16:34):
interesting, in the way that actuallythe process is different than the
ones that have been held in worldwide.
Laura May (16:42):
That was beautifully put.
Thank you.
Louder.
That was very helpful.
No, it's really fantastic how you've justhighlighted the role of language as being
particularly key in this whole processand the peace courts but, but I wanna
jump straight in now to your other paper,because the moment I saw the title of
this, I was like, all right, I'm gonnaneed to go out louder onto the podcast.
And she convinced Solveig to come on aswell, because you wrote this paper called
(17:06):
"The Dynamics of Peace or Legacy ofRebel Governance, patterns of Cooperation
between Farc ex-combatants and Conflictaffected Communities in Colombia".
And you've just highlighted this rolein centrality of communities in the
whole situation, the whole peace accords.
So I'll turn to Solvig first.
I mean, what was this paper about?
Like what made you go, all right,we're going from Lus FARs where we're
(17:28):
talking about the integration of femalecombatants into the community, to
now going, oh, let's really dig intothis whole idea of rebel governance
and how that comes together with thecommunity and this post piece Accord era.
Solveig Richter (17:41):
I mean, the first point was when we were in this Reincorporation
camps, well, we saw a world which was.
Somehow wonderful functioning,but separated from the rest.
Right?
And we initiated processesof community meetings.
So we brought in for some focus groupdiscussions some of the community
members that lived around thisReincorporation camp, and we realized,
(18:03):
well, that's not done on a regular basis.
They do not meet that often withthe communities around them, so why,
how come they have so many skills?
There were so many questions arisingout of this, this small observation
that interaction is not happen on adaily basis between excom competence
on their way to get reincorporatedas they frame it, or reintegrated in
(18:27):
the academic term into the society.
And that was the curiosity or that, thatcaught our attention in the first place.
And then as Laura mentioned previously,this reincorporation was a collective one.
But of course not all.
Were in a collective process.
So we also met on a, and this soundsvery academic now, on a comparative
case basis, we had to comparealso, and were curious, how is this
(18:53):
reincorporation process happening forthose who decided to do it individually?
Is it totally different?
And from our first observation, andwe had some, we were not only in
one case, but then we moved on, toanother area in Wheela, in, in a, and
we, right from the beginning we sawthat this these are totally different
processes, so it didn't need a lotof, to cause to catch our attention,
(19:20):
to bring the topic a bit further andto talk about like these transformative
processes in different areas, indifferent processes, in different types.
I mean, it sounds like veryacademic, but of course we were
always integrated into the field.
Immersed into the field, so to say.
Since 2018 and then until we publisheda paper and we were in the field
(19:41):
also with another project last year.
I mean, we were in Lara specificallyalso during the pandemic from time to
time, before and after continuouslykeeping up the relationship to the
excom and then following up thisprocess of transformation, but in
two totally different areas andin totally different processes.
And that was actually what.
(20:02):
What mattered a lot for us, which broughtus then also to the argument and to the
paper of this transition that we haveto look at the local level and to say,
and to argue, no, it's, it's different.
It's different with the communities and itmatters how reincorporation is happening.
Also, in terms of different element.
Laura May (20:23):
You've actually just made me really curious, and this is gonna show
I clearly have not read the ColombianPeace agreement, but you've just meant,
Laura just mentioned that communitiesE Central in this peace agreement.
So like you've just mentionedthat not everybody is integrating
or reincorporating the same way.
I mean if you've got sort of communitiesat the center of this agreement, but I
guess not signing the peace agreement,how do you actually get them involved and
(20:47):
to agree to this reincorporation process?
Solveig Richter (20:51):
I mean, one point which you have to keep in mind, I mean,
during the violent conflict and , Lauramentioned it over the long period of
time, I mean, Las far, the FARC has been agovernment, a field service provider also.
So it was alreadyintegrated into communities.
I mean, we do not start from LasFark as an criminal organization
(21:14):
that is detached completely fromwhat's happening in the communities.
No, no, no, no.
They were well integrated.
I mean, they were not only recruitingfrom camps and from poor people
somewhere voluntarily of course alsogoing into the aunt confrontation
or aunt La lucha, so to say.
And so interactions during thisconflict happened and they were
(21:37):
controlling territories 200%.
So, and how does this translatelater on into new governments and new
political arrangements on the ground?
That was what was interesting.
But I think Laura is alsosmiling and she, she wants to
step in and is already a very.
Curious also to toshare her opinion about.
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (21:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And when we say like, individual basis,doesn't mean that they are not attached
to the communities and the country.
It's like when we see what happened,from 2070 when we had this yeah,.
The mobilization comes, they transferinto the reincorporation camp.
(22:21):
And then so many people startingto live, these et TCRs as
they are called in Colombia why?
It was not because they were justlike, oh, no, I want to, to have this
individual reincorporation part, whichis not the same as the other groups?
No.
Like in the reincorporation phase, itwas because these zone were established
(22:43):
in remote areas with the problems, inour rural zones in Colombia with no
access to water, to electricity, to thepublic services with a lot of security
issues and a lack of job opportunities.
So they said, okay, we needTo have, means of life.
And so they started to live thesespaces and they started to gather
(23:07):
in the regions where they werefrom or where they wanted to be at.
And when we say in this case, thisAl case study is super interesting
because yes, it it is individual asthe state doesn't recognize it as
like reincorporation camp, of course.
And it doesn't have the services and allthe institutional background that the
(23:31):
other ones, the formal ones, but uh,ex-combatants there, they started to
do themselves some networks with thecommunity and in the implementation of
the productive projects, they started to,you know like involve the communities.
That's why we found these two different.
Models or uh, types.
(23:52):
of orders, which was like the clusterones and the entrenched social orders.
When you see the two differencebetween Lamont, Tanika and edk, you
will find exactly one, which is theinstitutionalized one, the collective one
where there is a reincorporation camp.
And when you see there, thecollective part of reintegration
(24:15):
you see there because of thiscollective path, less interaction on
a daily basis with the communities.
It's more like institutionalized.
Like when they say we sit togetherand we design all the strategies for
their incorporation with the communities
. It helps also with seeing the vulnerability of those spaces.
And I forgot like to say, whatother of the facts or the elements
(24:39):
why people started to go away fromthis reincorporation comes, was
not only because of this lack ofpelvic services and so on, but also
because they started to be killed.
And that's an important factorin this process when they
started to be assassinated.
And they were yeah, afraid of course.
(25:00):
But you see in this cluster they areless vulnerable to security, issues in
the o On the other hand, you see likethe at serious one, which is like the
opposite when they don't have like thisinstitutional protection, so to say.
It's more like individual part, coursewith more interaction because the
(25:22):
communities, they're on the dailybasis sharing with the communities
there in the communities actually.
But it means more, muchmore vulnerability.
So I have here to take this opportunityof this podcast to say that we came
to this argument and to this paper,because one of the ex-combatants,
(25:42):
we were working with was killed.
and it was like, I stillthink it, it, it's hard.
When you see like in a peace process,a window, as I said in the beginning
of opportunity to be very hopefulabout the situation in your country.
When you go to the field and youstart to see these people, of course
(26:06):
you cannot say they're just angelsor something like that because
it's finalizing all the violence.
But you see the efforts, to becomepeace like agents, and for instance,
this person was leading um, likea productive project regarding x.
Excellent and . It was reallyvery, very interesting.
(26:28):
And then when I read a message that hewas killed, it was really for us hard.
And that's why I think we also cameto this paper to understand all
the violence that was around thecommunities or in this zone.
Laura May (26:46):
And so I, I mean, I, obviously don't wanna trivialize the,
the situation, but I just wanna bringthis back to an analogy if I can, just
so everyone listening can stay with us.
Right.
If I understand correctly withthese two different models, one is
kind of like a summer camp, not,but obviously not very peaceful.
Right.
You know, it's structured,it is institutionalized.
(27:06):
People go there, it's safer, butit's maybe not so integrated into
the community locally becauseyou're in your summer camp.
Right.
Whereas the other one is more likea fishing trip in a horror movie
where you go there and you're goinginto town occasionally and seeing
people, so you have more contact withlocals, but also, I don't know, the
woods are full of bears or something.
(27:27):
Is that a reasonable analogy forhow these two different models work?
So, Vega's just laughing at me and going,
Solveig Richter (27:32):
Well, it's a little bit I mean it's, it's not
a summer camp and a horror trip.
Right.
So the allergy is a little bit, Imean, of, I mean, you're getting
it right in it in terms of Yes.
The one thing is really they areliving in the camps and so they, they
establish structure system there andit's not on a regular basis meeting
to the, to the communities initially.
(27:54):
Right.
So the process is there.
So we have also to look into what'shappening now, . Say they are
now so developed into real hops.
And during the pandemic, we foundout, for example, that these
clustered reincorporation campswere also an important side.
Of community help duringthe pandemic first, right.
(28:14):
So they were opening their little schools.
They had wifi, so they wereopening up for the communities.
So, and that was very important,but they could do so because
they had, with Lara describedpreviously, right, this strength,
this cohesion, this institutionalsupport structure around them.
The other side, like the individualpast, we have it a lot as well in
(28:38):
rural areas like I, and here it wasvery, it became very dangerous and
violent for the combatants because alsoa lot of of stigmatization happening.
So of course this area was stillone where you had the ncia, so you
had a lot of armed groups fightingfor the control of the territory.
(28:59):
And every time something happenedalso the local population or the
mayor, politicians were like,Blaming also ex competence for that.
So this stigmatization happened ona daily basis and made things worse,
but it's not a horror trip, so tosay, because you also have many
other cases, for example, in citiesalso, I mean, ex competence, where
(29:21):
a lot integrating into cities.
Right?
So we do not havereincorporation camps in cities.
But if we look for example, in,in , they were also not pushing
forward um, socioeconomic projects.
They're in these cities on anindividual basis and it's a failure
of the state not to protect them.
It's not a horror trip as such.
But they were pushing a lot inside thecommunities forward and they, they were
(29:46):
less distance between the ex-combatantsand the communities in an initial state.
So what we have to learn from thatis protection schemes matter a lot
and also the role of the state thatwere, the implementation of the
peace agreement and the failuresthat brought 'em to the stage.
So the prospects were there fora also successful reincorporation.
(30:10):
So that's one takeaway, right?
The other one is also key tosay is at the beginning, the
government, and I mean, there weremany critiques who were arguing.
Look, these collective reincorporationcamps, there will be new camps for
recruitment for re armand, thiswill form the basis for an opposition.
I mean a re armamentprocess of the whole group.
(30:32):
And it hasn't been thatmuch to the contrary.
This collective reincorporationcamps were indeed also key to
transform some of the areas.
Not all, because we cannotspeak about all Colombia.
Colombia is so differentand not everything.
What repo speaking the paper appliesto all reincorporation camps.
We have to take care to, to takethat small footnote here, but some
(30:54):
we're transforming into central pdo.
So into real real communityor, centers that function well
that have some infrastructure andare able to bring forward some
small scale local development.
So, and we have to understand that theseexpectations both were for some reason,
which we argue in the paper not happeningas, as the government were expecting
(31:18):
or we're afraid of, but also theseindividualized, they need more protection
and inputs from state, from the outside.
Laura May (31:26):
Thank you.
That was beautifully done.
So I wanna get back then to the challengesof researching in environments like
this cuz I mean, Lara, you mentionedthat you had this ex-com commandant
who was unfortunately killed duringthese reincorporation processes.
And Solv like you also highlighted thatLara has developed these longstanding
relationships or you, I suppose youboth have in order to do this research.
(31:50):
So what are some of the challenges thatcome for you personally or to the research
project as a result of working in thesekinds of environments, which are so
plagued by violence and structural issues?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (32:02):
Yeah, so I think the first challenge is
that you have to take into accountthe security development of the
territory where you are doing fieldresearch because sometimes you can,
even if you want to, you cannot go.
And if you go, and I'm superthankful for that with Salate
because she had much, much moreexperience than me in field work.
(32:26):
So she was really guiding me inthis process of doing research.
And we established really importantlike protocol to do field work.
And I remember in the firsttime, first visit I did in Lamont,
Anita, that was the first territory.
I was always writing to her like, okay.
I have now the opportunity to goto another community, which is far
(32:49):
away, and this, and this and this.
What shall I do.
And so these things are reporting andsaying like, okay, I do have a contact
person, which is not in Colombia, whichis an outsider and she can help me with
this and this, and that's super important.
But I think coming back to thechallenges is like, yeah, how to do
(33:09):
research in a context that is not,unfortunately peaceful, any longer and.
, how you can deal, with the violencethat has been increased in these zones.
But definitely I think it's worthy.
Of course the regions whereyou definitely cannot go.
And that happened last year with thisproject we also did, but also with
(33:34):
another project I was conducted, it waslike, okay, there are some regions where
you definitely cannot go because a tipor I very good practice to do few re
research in conflict affected communitiesis to have a really local partners who
can tell you, if you can do it or youcannot do it, And in many times with
(33:59):
elections, because we had last yearnational elections, for the president
and for the Congress violence arose.
And they were saying, sorry, no.
The, the situation is right now, no,the perfect one, it is very risky.
So just stay there.
And then when they say, nowyou can come, we went to the
field and it was really good.
So I think it's important also tolisten to these local partners and
(34:25):
as I said, to have a protocol withyour team and to say, okay, if this
happen, what we are going to do.
And I also realized, becauselast year, I did a lot of
field work a lot, a lot, a lot.
And in a certain point I realizedwith my team that we were overwhelmed.
So it's very important, and I sayhere, to have psychological support
(34:49):
because like this ex combatantwho was killed was the beginning.
But then you also are with the communitiesand they are telling you stories
about victimization about like many,many things they have gone through.
And you also listen to theex-combatants who were also victims
of certain kinds of violence.
(35:11):
You are listening to many, many, many um,horrific I will say things that happen.
And in a certain point youare really charged, and this
affect you, this affects you.
And so, I did that last year with my team.
We had, also psychological supportand it was super good and relief.
(35:32):
So it's called, yeah, I don't know,I, I, I forgot the name now in, in,
in English, but it's like, if that
Laura May (35:42):
A psychological
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal: first Exactly, exactly. (35:44):
undefined
First aid psychological contact whenyou can see, that's important, eh?
Yeah.
So I think, yeah, the challenges are huge,but you can deal with that definitely.
Because, as I said, it'simportant to do field research.
It's important.
And talking about longrelationships with them.
(36:06):
Something that I have implementedsince I started to work with Solve
was this um, Participatory research.
So to involve them, in the researchprocess, to involve them, in the
outputs of the research is important.
And so that that's why I still havecontact with them because they know
(36:26):
that if I get any project or if I getanything, I go back, to them and I say
them, okay, I have this what we can do.
And so it's important to havealso like a long relationship.
And that's why I'm now also doingmy PhD, regarding this violence
and their incorporation part.
(36:48):
But it has allowed me to dothe PhD because I have held
these long relationships with.
Solveig Richter (36:56):
Yeah.
Maybe to add on that, I mean um,Laura described perfectly her
perspective also from the local level.
And I think in some stages I rememberwe were together in field research and
it wasn't that easy to sometimes alsodifferentiate between your part of that.
Right.
I, I remember there was a, a victimceremony and they were asking all,
all participants in the space.
(37:18):
To participate.
And I said, no, no, no, no.
I, I can't participate.
But Laura was saying, no,I am participating because
I'm a Colombian as well.
I'm part of the conflict here in this,in this country, so it's my country.
But I said, no, I'm notpart of the conflicts.
I have to keep the distance.
But I think also that thispartnership helped to navigate
through these situations.
I mean, you always have to understandwhen you go through the field, You become
(37:40):
part of a community, a part of something.
So you also have to manageexpectations, right?
So, and you are sometimes reallya, a white elephant in a room,
in, in some of the communities.
Of course, everyone is seeing youcoming, even if you have a low profile.
And, and so I mean this academicbackground protects you a little bit.
(38:03):
Of course.
But you also have to take care tomanage expectations in the field.
Why are you coming?
We're just publishing papers.
something like justwhat heck are you doing?
Publishing papers for what?
So of course you also have to, Imean, and that's what we, we realize
during the field work to communicatethis, that you give visibility, right?
So that bringing also communitiestogether, this participatory action
(38:25):
research bringing them in as part of thisresearch, these communities Izing their
grievances or their opinions at a muchhigher level in Bogota, or, I mean, we
had many, many workshops where we thenwe're bringing it to the political level.
Yeah.
So bringing it also back maybeto Germany and to the attention
of some of the policy makers.
(38:47):
And that's what we can do as researchers,but we have to be transparent about
that, that we are not working withcommunities just for extracting knowledge.
And I remember we had in one of ourprojects, tough discussions with
the Afro Colombian communities.
They were really saying, oh, come on,you come here to extract our knowledge.
And we were saying, no, no, no.
I mean, for us it's important alsoto bring something back then to
(39:08):
the communities, even if it's onlyour analysis and our assessment.
The second point I wanted to mentionis, of course it was much different for
me coming from, from Germany, right.
I was not that much immersedinto the field because I could
only travel from time to time.
I'm not able to do ethnographicresearch because I have a full-time
professor, she in Germany, so I haveto teach and all these obligations.
(39:31):
So I was often coming only for asometimes one or two week basis.
And sometimes from the outsideit seemed, well, I'm this typical
northern researcher flying in, andthen everything has to prepare for
me, and everything is beautifully niceand everything has to work out that I
go into the field and then, then I'mthere and everything has to work out.
So that was also sometimes problematic.
But at the same time, I, I mean, for meit was important to, first of all, make my
(39:55):
own opinion not to rely on any outsidersand to establish relationships as well.
I mean, I, I think that the communitiesrealized, of course, that I was
taking sometimes a five hour roadtrip to go to the communities.
Or took a long flight and then tooka, a motorcycle, whatever, right?
(40:16):
So that you do this, that you investalso and you go to the communities to
listen to them, to work with them, evenif it's only for a short period of time.
And I think that's helped.
And again, also louder to continuewith the relationship because they were
realizing, no, they take us seriously.
They do not want only to make I don'tmoney with knowledge or something
(40:37):
like that, but they are reallyinterested in our destiny, so to say,
what's happening here on the ground.
And when Laura mentioned security issues,I mean, this is a very important issue
and I have, from my side as professor,I've supervised many PhD students
in areas of really hot conflict.
I remember one of my PhD studentcalling me, oh, I'm on the borderline
(40:59):
between in the four, between Sudanand the four, and they are asking
me to give them all my data.
What shall I do?
And I was sitting in a nice and warmapartment or back home in Germany
and I, Hmm, what can you advisesomeone now on the border that get
interrogated by police in the four?
And so of course these are someprotocols you have to follow.
You have to prepare yourself and when,when in the paper there is written okay?
(41:23):
You have done, I dunno, 10interviews, focus group.
This one or two focus group discussions.
A focus group discussion is takingmaybe two hours, maybe three
interviews, can take one hour.
Okay?
You calculate it makes2, 3, 4 days of work.
Forget it.
Laura May (41:37):
Yeah.
Solveig Richter (41:38):
I mean, field work means a lot of preparation, a lot of
follow up as, as slow as a debriefing.
Mentally prepared for field work,physical to be physically exhausted.
So, and I think it's worth, but thework behind that, this work goes into
preparing and ethically um, participatoryfield work needs a lot of preparation
(42:03):
and a lot of time, and I think if, ifpeople are really collecting primary
data, and it will be more important withthis artificial intelligence, J T P T
things, right, to really go and see,instead of trusting on some artificial
intelligence that it needs time.
So if PhD students are just going intothe field or other students are going
into the field collecting data, or weas senior professors are going into the
(42:27):
field collecting data, that means a lot.
And I think we should highlight that.
Appreciate that.
When.
People invested energy.
And even though there are alsoecological aspects, which you
have to keep in mind, right?
Flying in and out and all that, andsometimes it's, the argument is made,
well, you can do everything online.
We not, there is a pros and consto this, but we have to keep in
(42:49):
mind the whole picture of it.
And of course we have to be sensitiveto our ecological footprint as well.
But keep in mind that it'simportant as well to to, to go
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (43:02):
I just want to emphasize that, there are a lot
of, you know, westernized methodologieshere in academia, so you have to be
really reliable and they have to betestable and, you know, like all the,
Laura May (43:18):
Oh, I do
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (43:19):
exactly all, all the permit like the elements
or whatever, or the indications you haveto follow in order to be an academician.
But with the communities, that doesn'twork the whole time, you know you go
there with your product for instance,and I know if I go there with the
paper as we have written, they're notgoing to understand which two types
(43:42):
are you talking about, whatever.
So I just wanted to encourage alsodiverse, the diversity in the academia.
And of course we are alwaysmeasured by how many paragraphs
do we publish how many books andeverything, which is also important.
But in order to have like this longrelationship with the communities,
(44:02):
you also need to hear them.
And you also need to knowlike what's important to them.
To them, it's notimportant a paper to them.
It's not important a book, eh to them.
I, I will share experiencehere with a project.
And it was like they wanted amap of the territory that was
made with them and for them.
And it was like social graphy, youknow, in the territory, in Kata.
(44:25):
So the point is Not always.
It's about academicpapers and everything.
There is a bridge, you know?
And we are a bridge.
We can like connect thecommunities with decision makers
locally and internationally.
But we also, eh, well I think we havethe duty also to bring them what they
(44:47):
need to have or they're willing to have.
Laura May (44:50):
super.
No, I think you've made a really valuablepoint there about the need for field work
because Yeah, it's so easy sometimes togo, oh, I could just do a survey online.
Everything will be fine.
Then you've highlighted both bethe rich data you've gained through
having these ongoing relationshipsthat do have that face-to-face time.
But I wanna go back for a momentbecause you've mentioned a couple
of times this increasing violencein this most recent period.
(45:15):
And I was wondering, I mean what kindsof violence are we talking about?
For example, are we talking aboutincreased domestic violence or are
we talking about re recognition ofviolence along form of combat lines?
Like what's actually happening there?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (45:31):
Yes.
Eh, no, we are talking aboutviolence with other armed groups.
You see in the paper in the last paperwe wrote far was almost in all parts of
Colombia, eh particular in the southernpart, but also in the northern part.
So once they demobilized,they left a power vacuum.
(45:52):
And that power vacuum was started tobe disputed to be fulfilled by other
armed actors, including dissidents ofthe farc, who gather either they say
in the beginning of the peace process,no, we are not doing a peace process.
Or after the peace process, theysaid, no, they are not they
were not ,comfortable with it.
(46:13):
And they started to, to gather in thesedecedent groups which is quite normal
enough, the peace processes in the world.
We have dissidents of heart, butwe also have the transformation of
some groups of the para military,with the mobilization of them.
So these new groups and the allgroups started all groups.
I will include here also the E LN, which has been also a guerilla
(46:37):
since the X 64, but it was notas big and as powerful as fart.
But they are also disputing theterritory control in this zone.
So, what we see now is thisconfrontation between these groups
and the state or between them,which led to increased violence.
(46:57):
We are not longer seeing them.
Huge massacres, for instance, thatwere unfortunately very, worldwide
known, like these massacres that theparliamentary did, or we are not any
longer seeing a lot of violence.
But we are seeing a selective violence.
And it means not only they'reassassinating former combatants, but
(47:20):
they are also assassinating socialleaders, that were not related to far.
But social leaders means people,who have a leadership in their
communities or that they wereimplementing the peace agreement,
or they are environmental leaders,human rights defenders It's a large
or a broad meaning of social leader.
(47:42):
But what we are seeing ismore selective violence.
Of course they're massacres,but it's more like five people.
It's not on longer ahuge killing of people.
But it's like, yeah, selectivethings and displacement.
That's what we have seen.
They are just saying,okay, this is our territory.
Now you have to live.
(48:03):
But to be honest, that's as I said, that'swhat I'm right now researching in my PhD.
So maybe in four years or threeyears, let's hope for the best.
I will come back to you and see andtell you, okay, these are the paths
and this is what I have found so far.
Laura May (48:24):
I'll, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
And I guess part of the reason I askabout this re instance of violence is
that it must be taking a, a psychologicaltoll on people to perhaps have this
moment of hope with these peaceaccords finally, after so many years.
And then violence starts reigniting.
(48:44):
Is that something you've seen in yourdiscussion so far with ex-combatants?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal: Yeah, definitely. (48:49):
undefined
Um, I think, and this is my politicalperspective, not my researcher
perspective, I have to admit that afterthe peace agreement the president who
came into the place was right whenPresident Ian Dukin, who was not
or, or who didn't want to implementthe peace agreement because he didn't
(49:13):
agree on the peace process as such.
So he did a lot of damage into thepeace process because of course he had
to implement it, but he started justto implement it really slowly and with a
lot of obstacles and everything and yeah,it it made an impact on, not only the
excu buttons, but also the communities.
(49:35):
In the survey we have implemented withEH, survey in the communities, there is
a particular question that it says, doyou agree that the peace process brought
positive changes for you in the community?
And in the beginning when westarted to implement these surveys
people were like, yes, yes, yes.
Like and now last year thatI also implemented some of
(49:58):
them, they were like, no, no.
So the no started to gain like more weightand or to be more powerful than the Yes.
And you see even myself as a Colombian,I'm a little bit like when, when I see
like the news, when I read them, it'slike, eh, when I know that I was able
(50:19):
to go safely during the first five yearsof the peace agreement to some places.
And now it's like, okay, I have to askthe locals, can I go, what do you think?
Eh, it's really complicated.
And I see that there is yeah, Iwouldn't say people are not not
longer helpful, but they feel alittle bit . She's disappointed.
(50:42):
I, I think that's the word, butSalk, she might have another opinion.
So I, I love to give the wordto her because I know we are
totally different in that sense.
Solveig Richter (50:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we were . Yeah.
Reflecting on the last years hasalways been, I'm overly optimistic, and
Laura is overly pessimistic sometimes.
Oh.
I, I mean, critical, notpessimistic, but, but more critical.
And I, I always step in and see thecommitment of people, the dedication
of the people, the, you know, whatthey can despite this hardship of
(51:15):
conflict, despite the direct, so tosay, affectation by wireless, what they
are still doing and delivering, and howthey are still creative and how they are
still totally committed for their life.
So that always gives mepositive energy, right?
So to see someone under these conditionscan survive these conditions, can
(51:37):
establish resilience, or can even ina very positive, in a very prospective
sense, create society and want toshape the society of the future, right?
And that's what you find in thefield, that of course you find these.
Very critical pessimistic views.
(51:57):
These also which find ofcourse their reason in the non
implementation of the peace agreement.
I mean, you can concretely say, okay,for example, the non-delivery, , the
Nonas assignment of tier of land twoexcom competency incorporation camps has
created problems of economic individualdevelopment or projects, right?
(52:19):
So you can follow everytrace, every step, right?
That was not implemented, you see ofcourse that how it affected, right?
The communities and the local level.
But on the other hand, my impression isthat they do not want to give up, right?
They, they just don't.
I mean, one point is many said, well,in phase of all these difficulties,
(52:41):
many, many more combatants will re-arm.
Yeah.
But actually they did not so much.
There are some peace dividendsthat come out of it and be
just a simple positive life.
So in peace and create something and toget the opportunity to create something.
But I I, I totally agree with Lara inmy five years that we, my positivism and
(53:06):
my optimism needs a bit more criticalreflection in terms of what it really
delivers on the ground and how protractedthis conflict is at the local level.
Sometimes that we need definitely newapproaches for coca substitution, right?
Or, or all of these elements.
And that they all play hand in hand.
(53:28):
That you just cannot come in andsolve one single issue on the local
level and forget the others becausethe others will be the spoilers.
And, you know, if you do not solveprobably coca substitution or substitution
programs, local development programs, ofcourse they have no income if you do not
do not solve infrastructure problems.
(53:49):
They might have the best pinproject, but they cannot transport
a payables to markets, right?
So, see, you have to think, thatthis local level piece dynamics
more inclusively and more from a,I wouldn't say interdisciplinary
perspective, but from allperspectives, bringing them together.
And in some areas it'sdifferent and in others.
(54:10):
But but still, I, I, I still have apositive view seeing all, despite all
these difficulties, the dedicationand commitment of people on the
ground for this peace process.
And that makes me always in a, yeah,I appreciate it and I, I, I think
this prospect of peace is stillthere, even though people realize
(54:30):
the outcomes are less than we expect
Laura May (54:33):
and I also wanna ask you louder.
I mean, I know that you are obviouslyheavily immersed in the Colombian
conflict and research of the Colombianconflict, but do you think that there
are things that people in other conflictscould learn from the work you've done
and from what you've seen on the ground?
In Colombia?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (54:49):
Yes.
I mean, I think for protectedconflicts, it's very interesting
with what we have done so far inColombia or research in Colombia.
But I think like every conflict hasparticularities that cannot be like
overlapped or just generalized, even ifthe Colombian one cannot be generalized.
Imagine with the other ones.
(55:11):
But I think the discussion wehave in the academia, liberal
peace, Hebrew peace, so on.
It's important.
It's important to understand, forinstance, now in Syria where they are
really trying, like since long time ago toconduct peace negotiations and everything.
Okay.
Even if the conflict is totallydifferent and everything.
(55:35):
What was good in the case of Colombiaand also with the transition and with
the reintegration of former combatantsthat can be also used, like the good
practices that we experience and that wehad the how they can be also useful to
adapt them to other conflict contexts.
It's like, you know what we havelearned, for instance from the Liberia
(56:00):
um, I don't know, Northern IrelandSudan, experiences of reintegration.
These experience have helpedalso to the Colombian conflict
to find the proper tools.
So I think by researching Colombiaand knowing these good practices,
we are going awesome to learn or toadapt them to other conflicts so they
(56:20):
can be or, or end in a positive way.
Laura May (56:24):
Look, solv louder.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
And for those who are interestedin learning more about your
work, where can they find you?
Solveig Richter (56:33):
We can't find me usually in an office, in a live station,
sometimes in field work in Colombia,
Laura May (56:38):
Yep.
Solveig Richter (56:39):
or somewhere else or conferences.
No, but I'm, yeah, justa University of Livero.
I'm also on Twitter.
Twitter, so I, I think yeah, allthese are ways to contact me.
Laura May (56:52):
Fantastic.
And louder.
What about you?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (56:55):
The same Twitter, my email and the proof, the
Peace Research Institute, Frankfurt.
Yeah, those
Laura May (57:05):
Brilliant.
And for everyone else, until next time,this is Laura May with the Conflict
Tipping Podcast for mediate.com.
Hello and welcome to the Conflict Tipping podcast from mediate.com,
the podcast that explores socialconflict and what we can do about it.
I'm your host, Laura May, and todayI have with me two wonderful guests,
Laura Camilla Baral and Solveig RichterSolveig gets professor of international
relations and transnational politicsat the University of Lipsig Germany.
(00:34):
Co-editor of the German LanguageJournal for Peace and Conflict Research,
and is interested in post-conflictsocieties and peace building.
Louder is a PhD researcher at thePeace Research Institute of Frankfurt,
and former program director at theUniversity of Rosario in Bogata Colombia.
She's a lover of nature andrunning, but I've managed to
capture her here with me today.
(00:54):
So welcome to the both of you,
Solveig Richter (00:57):
Hello Laura from my site as well.
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal: Hello everyone. (01:00):
undefined
Laura May (01:01):
Yeah, it's great to have you here with me.
So I'm gonna jump straight on inbecause you've both done a lot of work
about conflict and post-conflict, andparticularly recently in Colombia.
So I wanna ask each of you, and I'llstart with Solveig, what makes Colombia
such a compelling case for you?
Solveig Richter (01:18):
that's a good question because I mean, I was
previously working a lot on theWestern Balkan regions on post-conflict
processes in the Western Balkans.
And I started to work at BrownSchool with lots of international
students, which broadened my horizon.
And then with the peace processstepping in in 2016, actually I get
the attention of the country, whichis in such a so to say, interesting
(01:42):
case to study for post-conflict peacebuilding with all its ups and down,
you know, with the referendum, theplebicito the negative vote on it.
And then I had a wonderful locationto have brilliant student, Laura
which were, yeah, I mean she was sokeen also to study this processes of
post-conflict reincorporation processes.
(02:03):
And so we, well, it was a wonderfulopportunity for me to step in and to
learn something about the country.
And I literally fell in love with notonly the country, with its people,
but also so to say with with thepeace processes such to study it.
So that was when I started to workon Colombia and why I do think
it's a super interesting case.
Laura May (02:22):
Incredible.
And what about you, Lara?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (02:26):
Yeah.
No, for me, it's super nice to havehere Solveig in this podcast because
I think we have different approaches.
She has more like the outsider view,which is highly interest interesting,
and also like important in thisprocesses and mine, which is like
the insider one, the local one.
So I do think like the.
(02:47):
Conflict in Colombia or the casestudy Colombia is very interesting
. historians might have very, alot of controversies about, what
happened and which is the yearof the beginning of the conflict.
But regardless that part, we willsay that is one of the longest armed
conflicts in at least in the region.
But in the middle of that andthis protected conflict, we have
(03:11):
held a strong, so I, I wouldn'tsay strong, but something like
moving democracy in the country.
So we have this, democracy and we,we are one of the strongest economies
or we were in the, in the region.
So how conflict.
It's like behaving with these goodindicators of country stability.
(03:33):
So I think it's a very, very yeah,useful case study to understand
how a conflict uh, behaves andhow a conflict transforms itself.
And with the peace process as, as Solveigalready said, I think we got the attention
of many, many scholars, includingmyself, local and international.
And it's because as she said, it's a,it, it was not only the huge event for
(03:58):
us as Colombia, when we got a lot ofa hope regarding like, we will change
this country and the situation and.
We recognize what has happened here inthe last or more than 50 years, and it
was really a window of opportunity, eh,to be really hopeful about our future.
(04:22):
And also because people startedto ask how, how was possible to
finally get an outcome, a peaceoutcome with the far gorilla, which
was yeah, since the 64, armed.
So how they changed like the arms to thepolitics and to the, um, civilian life.
So I think all of.
(04:45):
Research questions were very,very interesting and very
necessary in that moment.
And they are still very importantbecause what we have seen after the
peace agreement is unfortunately,in the beginning it was good because
all the violence rates diminished.
But now we have seen, again, how they'reincreasing other types of violence,
(05:09):
but still post-conflict violence.
So I think Colombia in all the phasesduring the conflict, during the peace
process, and now in the post agreement,I wouldn't say post-conflict, but
I will say post agreement phase isa very, very interesting case study
for the peace and conflict studies
Laura May (05:31):
field.
I find it really interesting howyou've raised almost two very different
puzzles here, because one is, itwas in conflict, and yet things are
moving and improving democraticallyand rights wise and otherwise.
So that's a really strange tension andreally interesting as you've raised.
And then the other hand you're like,oh, well now we're in this sort of
post agreement situation, but there'sperhaps problems with integration or
(05:53):
something that's leading to furtherconflict, if I understand correctly,
because I know you've both written acouple of papers along these lines and
I'm really interested to dig into those.
And so the one I would actuallylike to start with, you wrote a
paper together called Las Farianas,which was about integration of
specifically female FARC fightersback into, I guess, normal society.
(06:14):
I mean, how did that actually work?
What was it you were looking at there?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (06:19):
So I, I will start because that was my
thesis during the master and whichwas supervised by Solveig, and then
I will give her like the word, butour interest or or my particular
interest was because when we thinkabout war, we think mostly about men.
Men in war, because we have thisbinary conception of like, men are
(06:43):
violent perpetrators and they do war.
And on the other side we have womenas just like peaceful victims and Peace
builders, eh, but when you see in aconflict and in a projected conflict
like the Colombian one, you see that thisbinary, frame was totally challenged, by
(07:05):
these fighters, these female fighters,in the guerilla, not only in FARC, but
also in other groups, but particularlyin Farc, because mm, what I wanted
to see was like, okay, of course manypeople already have know, which were
the role of this former combatants, butwhat's happening now in the transition,
(07:28):
to peace and to this civilian role?
What's happening, now are theylosing all the agency or the Yeah,
the, the power they got within theguerrilla, or are they transforming it?
So in that paper we both explored,How was this transition from the war
roles to the peace roles of thesefemale former fire combatants and taking
(07:55):
into account that they were 30% of thegorilla members, it was important to us
to understand this female perspective,of the reintegration process.
It's also very acknowledged that duringthe this D D R progress, disarmament,
the mobilization and reintegrationprograms, the most difficult part is
(08:15):
the reintegration one, because it'sthat long term one that you need
them to get a job or, or to get allthe skills in order to come like a
civilian and to have a sustainablelife in this civilian environment.
So, what we have found so far was thatthey help many roles, important roles.
(08:39):
They also were in the combat.
They were not only like cooking, like ithappens in other groups, for instance, in
the family, military groups in Colombia.
But they had reallyimportant positions there.
Not the highest one.
I have to, to, to admit that, theynever went to the app like, it's
called in Spanish Style Mak,which is, it was like the highest
(09:02):
decision making instance in fart.
No, but they had in the local parts,some leading positions, which
have been transformed so far.
When you go to the places wherethey have been reintegrated or
reincorporated, because far doesn'tsay like reintegration, but
they use reincorporation, theyare using those skill to lead.
(09:27):
Many projects, productive projects,to run in the local politics, to
run their important leadershipstrategies in the communities.
So I think, that, that was importantto see how, at least in the beginning,
because I I'm talking like thispaper, we did research in 2018.
(09:48):
And so it was really in the beginning.
Just in the beginning.
So I think like my hypothesis nowis like this leadership has been
stranded, more in the past years.
But in the beginning it was like thatthey were transforming their skills
to act in a peaceful environment.
Solveig Richter (10:08):
I can step in and widen a little bit or broaden a little bit the
perspective because I mean, you raisedtwo important question Nora, right?
So, first of all, what's happening aftera conflict and how can it be that this
processes create new conflicts itself?
Right.
And I think we have tostop thinking in binaries.
We have to stop thinking in, okay, wehave a peace agreement and conflict
(10:30):
stops, and all these processes afterwardlead into one direction, right?
It's a linear thinking and it's like, yes,of course it's embedded in these northern
thinking of making peace agreements.
And that all is fine, but no, thelocal level is totally different.
We have networks, we havelong water term networks.
We have rebel governance during conflict.
So we have transitions at apolitical decision making level.
(10:54):
Do not mean that we have thesetransitions at local level.
Yes, we have completely differentincentives and completely political
structures, but still we have astrong continuity also from the war.
Starting with this paper, whichcreated our curiosity, right?
Because this creates also stronginterpersonal linkages, which provides
(11:15):
opportunities after war, right?
So we, it's this, this, thisperspective that everything falls
apart and that we created rightfrom the scratch and all this new,
it's not right at the local level.
And so what this paperless Arian gaveus at, or me at least, I mean Laura was
right, embedded from the beginning, butalso me, this perspective of, no, we have
(11:36):
to get rid of this binary or dichotomousunderstanding of war and peace.
But we have to look more intothe dynamics at local level.
What happens here?
I think this is also thislevel where exactly women can
have a transformative role.
Beyond any more symbolic, right.
I mean, of course we have strongtradition in Latinamerican and
(11:58):
Colombia of this machismo, and we havewomen in leadership positions, but
often this more symbolic positions.
Right.
Or often they have very symbolic roles.
But how this agency really bringsinto a transformation of conflict is
something that matters a lot and howespecially female leadership can step
(12:20):
in at local level in this transitionfrom a not always war, but we have also
areas of peace during war or duringviolent conflict into peace, but also
not full peace because we have ofcourse, societal conflict and continuous
so to say battles over the rightinterpretation or, or conflicts about
(12:41):
what's happening on the ground and thecontinuing of war economies, like, like
all that, that does not happen overnight.
Right.
Uh,
Laura May (12:50):
What a surprise.
What a surprise.
Solveig Richter (12:52):
Exactly.
So, and, and, and to look into thatblack box opening up and focusing
on one specific group of people andhow they contribute to peace building.
I think this is an enormous, academicinterest and we have to learn more.
And that's what Les FARs brought us into,
Laura May (13:09):
okay, look, that's really interesting and I wanna get onto
your second paper shortly or, orsorry, your recent paper shortly.
But I also just wanna find out fora moment cuz louder mentioned that
FARC prefer not to use the phrasingreintegration, but rather reincorporation,
which gives me some strange ideasabout either businesses or the body.
So what is actually thepolitics behind this framing?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal: Thanks for asking that because (13:33):
undefined
it gives me the opportunity toclarify this reincorporation term.
And it's like when we were or notwe uh, when, when they were in the
Havana process, in the negotiations,FARC said like, we don't want the same
process as the previous one has beenreally recognized worldwide for the d
(13:56):
d R processes, eh, mobilization andreintegration eh processes because we
have unfortunately had many, many factors.
Um, De mobilized.
And then there was a longprocess, institutionalized
process of reintegration.
The fart said, no, we don'twant the, the same process.
(14:17):
Because the previous collective processwas with the power military groups, which
of course were, like opposite to them.
And also because in these programs, theColombian government as a strategic, war
firm, they started to say people, lookof far and the other girl demobilized,
(14:38):
your family is waiting for you, or wardoesn't pay . And many, many people left
the gorilla, , with these programs.
And so they.
Thought like they were traitorsof the cause and of the gorilla.
So they say, we don't want to bemixed with these other people.
(14:59):
That was one of the reasons.
So we also won a collective projectwhen we say, and that was not only
with the term reincorporation, butalso with, we are not talking about
disarmament in the farts piece process.
But we are talking about they laying downthe weapons because that was their will.
They were not defeated on the bottle,but they wanted, there was a peace,
(15:23):
will, so they said , we are layingdown our weapons, which is in Spanish.
So as they were saying, we aredoing this on Voluntary basis.
We are not saying that our collectiveproject and our political project will
be now, over on the country we aremobilizing too the political project.
(15:47):
So they said , you, it's goingto be collective because we
are going to have a party.
We are transforming thegorilla into a political party.
And the third point was, we don't wantthis to be without the communities.
If you see the peace agreementyou'll see communities are in
the middle of the peace agreement.
Regarding the D D R process is only forfarc, but the other ones they content,
(16:11):
many, many measures for the community.
So that's why they said, okay,this process is going to be the
reincorporation, of FARC into thecommunities because we never left them.
We were with them during the war also,which is related to these Revel orders
that we are going to speak later on.
But yeah, that's why they decidedto put this, term, which is very
(16:34):
interesting, in the way that actuallythe process is different than the
ones that have been held in worldwide.
Laura May (16:42):
That was beautifully put.
Thank you.
Louder.
That was very helpful.
No, it's really fantastic how you've justhighlighted the role of language as being
particularly key in this whole processand the peace courts but, but I wanna
jump straight in now to your other paper,because the moment I saw the title of
this, I was like, all right, I'm gonnaneed to go out louder onto the podcast.
And she convinced Solveig to come on aswell, because you wrote this paper called
(17:06):
"The Dynamics of Peace or Legacy ofRebel Governance, patterns of Cooperation
between Farc ex-combatants and Conflictaffected Communities in Colombia".
And you've just highlighted this rolein centrality of communities in the
whole situation, the whole peace accords.
So I'll turn to Solvig first.
I mean, what was this paper about?
Like what made you go, all right,we're going from Lus FARs where we're
(17:28):
talking about the integration of femalecombatants into the community, to
now going, oh, let's really dig intothis whole idea of rebel governance
and how that comes together with thecommunity and this post piece Accord era.
Solveig Richter (17:41):
I mean, the first point was when we were in this Reincorporation
camps, well, we saw a world which was.
Somehow wonderful functioning,but separated from the rest.
Right?
And we initiated processesof community meetings.
So we brought in for some focus groupdiscussions some of the community
members that lived around thisReincorporation camp, and we realized,
(18:03):
well, that's not done on a regular basis.
They do not meet that often withthe communities around them, so why,
how come they have so many skills?
There were so many questions arisingout of this, this small observation
that interaction is not happen on adaily basis between excom competence
on their way to get reincorporatedas they frame it, or reintegrated in
(18:27):
the academic term into the society.
And that was the curiosity or that, thatcaught our attention in the first place.
And then as Laura mentioned previously,this reincorporation was a collective one.
But of course not all.
Were in a collective process.
So we also met on a, and this soundsvery academic now, on a comparative
case basis, we had to comparealso, and were curious, how is this
(18:53):
reincorporation process happening forthose who decided to do it individually?
Is it totally different?
And from our first observation, andwe had some, we were not only in
one case, but then we moved on, toanother area in Wheela, in, in a, and
we, right from the beginning we sawthat this these are totally different
processes, so it didn't need a lotof, to cause to catch our attention,
(19:20):
to bring the topic a bit further andto talk about like these transformative
processes in different areas, indifferent processes, in different types.
I mean, it sounds like veryacademic, but of course we were
always integrated into the field.
Immersed into the field, so to say.
Since 2018 and then until we publisheda paper and we were in the field
(19:41):
also with another project last year.
I mean, we were in Lara specificallyalso during the pandemic from time to
time, before and after continuouslykeeping up the relationship to the
excom and then following up thisprocess of transformation, but in
two totally different areas andin totally different processes.
And that was actually what.
(20:02):
What mattered a lot for us, which broughtus then also to the argument and to the
paper of this transition that we haveto look at the local level and to say,
and to argue, no, it's, it's different.
It's different with the communities and itmatters how reincorporation is happening.
Also, in terms of different element.
Laura May (20:23):
You've actually just made me really curious, and this is gonna show
I clearly have not read the ColombianPeace agreement, but you've just meant,
Laura just mentioned that communitiesE Central in this peace agreement.
So like you've just mentionedthat not everybody is integrating
or reincorporating the same way.
I mean if you've got sort of communitiesat the center of this agreement, but I
guess not signing the peace agreement,how do you actually get them involved and
(20:47):
to agree to this reincorporation process?
Solveig Richter (20:51):
I mean, one point which you have to keep in mind, I mean,
during the violent conflict and , Lauramentioned it over the long period of
time, I mean, Las far, the FARC has been agovernment, a field service provider also.
So it was alreadyintegrated into communities.
I mean, we do not start from LasFark as an criminal organization
(21:14):
that is detached completely fromwhat's happening in the communities.
No, no, no, no.
They were well integrated.
I mean, they were not only recruitingfrom camps and from poor people
somewhere voluntarily of course alsogoing into the aunt confrontation
or aunt La lucha, so to say.
And so interactions during thisconflict happened and they were
(21:37):
controlling territories 200%.
So, and how does this translatelater on into new governments and new
political arrangements on the ground?
That was what was interesting.
But I think Laura is alsosmiling and she, she wants to
step in and is already a very.
Curious also to toshare her opinion about.
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (21:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And when we say like, individual basis,doesn't mean that they are not attached
to the communities and the country.
It's like when we see what happened,from 2070 when we had this yeah,.
The mobilization comes, they transferinto the reincorporation camp.
(22:21):
And then so many people startingto live, these et TCRs as
they are called in Colombia why?
It was not because they were justlike, oh, no, I want to, to have this
individual reincorporation part, whichis not the same as the other groups?
No.
Like in the reincorporation phase, itwas because these zone were established
(22:43):
in remote areas with the problems, inour rural zones in Colombia with no
access to water, to electricity, to thepublic services with a lot of security
issues and a lack of job opportunities.
So they said, okay, we needTo have, means of life.
And so they started to live thesespaces and they started to gather
(23:07):
in the regions where they werefrom or where they wanted to be at.
And when we say in this case, thisAl case study is super interesting
because yes, it it is individual asthe state doesn't recognize it as
like reincorporation camp, of course.
And it doesn't have the services and allthe institutional background that the
(23:31):
other ones, the formal ones, but uh,ex-combatants there, they started to
do themselves some networks with thecommunity and in the implementation of
the productive projects, they started to,you know like involve the communities.
That's why we found these two different.
Models or uh, types.
(23:52):
of orders, which was like the clusterones and the entrenched social orders.
When you see the two differencebetween Lamont, Tanika and edk, you
will find exactly one, which is theinstitutionalized one, the collective one
where there is a reincorporation camp.
And when you see there, thecollective part of reintegration
(24:15):
you see there because of thiscollective path, less interaction on
a daily basis with the communities.
It's more like institutionalized.
Like when they say we sit togetherand we design all the strategies for
their incorporation with the communities
. It helps also with seeing the vulnerability of those spaces.
And I forgot like to say, whatother of the facts or the elements
(24:39):
why people started to go away fromthis reincorporation comes, was
not only because of this lack ofpelvic services and so on, but also
because they started to be killed.
And that's an important factorin this process when they
started to be assassinated.
And they were yeah, afraid of course.
(25:00):
But you see in this cluster they areless vulnerable to security, issues in
the o On the other hand, you see likethe at serious one, which is like the
opposite when they don't have like thisinstitutional protection, so to say.
It's more like individual part, coursewith more interaction because the
(25:22):
communities, they're on the dailybasis sharing with the communities
there in the communities actually.
But it means more, muchmore vulnerability.
So I have here to take this opportunityof this podcast to say that we came
to this argument and to this paper,because one of the ex-combatants,
(25:42):
we were working with was killed.
and it was like, I stillthink it, it, it's hard.
When you see like in a peace process,a window, as I said in the beginning
of opportunity to be very hopefulabout the situation in your country.
When you go to the field and youstart to see these people, of course
(26:06):
you cannot say they're just angelsor something like that because
it's finalizing all the violence.
But you see the efforts, to becomepeace like agents, and for instance,
this person was leading um, likea productive project regarding x.
Excellent and . It was reallyvery, very interesting.
(26:28):
And then when I read a message that hewas killed, it was really for us hard.
And that's why I think we also cameto this paper to understand all
the violence that was around thecommunities or in this zone.
Laura May (26:46):
And so I, I mean, I, obviously don't wanna trivialize the,
the situation, but I just wanna bringthis back to an analogy if I can, just
so everyone listening can stay with us.
Right.
If I understand correctly withthese two different models, one is
kind of like a summer camp, not,but obviously not very peaceful.
Right.
You know, it's structured,it is institutionalized.
(27:06):
People go there, it's safer, butit's maybe not so integrated into
the community locally becauseyou're in your summer camp.
Right.
Whereas the other one is more likea fishing trip in a horror movie
where you go there and you're goinginto town occasionally and seeing
people, so you have more contact withlocals, but also, I don't know, the
woods are full of bears or something.
(27:27):
Is that a reasonable analogy forhow these two different models work?
So, Vega's just laughing at me and going,
Solveig Richter (27:32):
Well, it's a little bit I mean it's, it's not
a summer camp and a horror trip.
Right.
So the allergy is a little bit, Imean, of, I mean, you're getting
it right in it in terms of Yes.
The one thing is really they areliving in the camps and so they, they
establish structure system there andit's not on a regular basis meeting
to the, to the communities initially.
(27:54):
Right.
So the process is there.
So we have also to look into what'shappening now, . Say they are
now so developed into real hops.
And during the pandemic, we foundout, for example, that these
clustered reincorporation campswere also an important side.
Of community help duringthe pandemic first, right.
(28:14):
So they were opening their little schools.
They had wifi, so they wereopening up for the communities.
So, and that was very important,but they could do so because
they had, with Lara describedpreviously, right, this strength,
this cohesion, this institutionalsupport structure around them.
The other side, like the individualpast, we have it a lot as well in
(28:38):
rural areas like I, and here it wasvery, it became very dangerous and
violent for the combatants because alsoa lot of of stigmatization happening.
So of course this area was stillone where you had the ncia, so you
had a lot of armed groups fightingfor the control of the territory.
(28:59):
And every time something happenedalso the local population or the
mayor, politicians were like,Blaming also ex competence for that.
So this stigmatization happened ona daily basis and made things worse,
but it's not a horror trip, so tosay, because you also have many
other cases, for example, in citiesalso, I mean, ex competence, where
(29:21):
a lot integrating into cities.
Right?
So we do not havereincorporation camps in cities.
But if we look for example, in,in , they were also not pushing
forward um, socioeconomic projects.
They're in these cities on anindividual basis and it's a failure
of the state not to protect them.
It's not a horror trip as such.
But they were pushing a lot inside thecommunities forward and they, they were
(29:46):
less distance between the ex-combatantsand the communities in an initial state.
So what we have to learn from thatis protection schemes matter a lot
and also the role of the state thatwere, the implementation of the
peace agreement and the failuresthat brought 'em to the stage.
So the prospects were there fora also successful reincorporation.
(30:10):
So that's one takeaway, right?
The other one is also key tosay is at the beginning, the
government, and I mean, there weremany critiques who were arguing.
Look, these collective reincorporationcamps, there will be new camps for
recruitment for re armand, thiswill form the basis for an opposition.
I mean a re armamentprocess of the whole group.
(30:32):
And it hasn't been thatmuch to the contrary.
This collective reincorporationcamps were indeed also key to
transform some of the areas.
Not all, because we cannotspeak about all Colombia.
Colombia is so differentand not everything.
What repo speaking the paper appliesto all reincorporation camps.
We have to take care to, to takethat small footnote here, but some
(30:54):
we're transforming into central pdo.
So into real real communityor, centers that function well
that have some infrastructure andare able to bring forward some
small scale local development.
So, and we have to understand that theseexpectations both were for some reason,
which we argue in the paper not happeningas, as the government were expecting
(31:18):
or we're afraid of, but also theseindividualized, they need more protection
and inputs from state, from the outside.
Laura May (31:26):
Thank you.
That was beautifully done.
So I wanna get back then to the challengesof researching in environments like
this cuz I mean, Lara, you mentionedthat you had this ex-com commandant
who was unfortunately killed duringthese reincorporation processes.
And Solv like you also highlighted thatLara has developed these longstanding
relationships or you, I suppose youboth have in order to do this research.
(31:50):
So what are some of the challenges thatcome for you personally or to the research
project as a result of working in thesekinds of environments, which are so
plagued by violence and structural issues?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (32:02):
Yeah, so I think the first challenge is
that you have to take into accountthe security development of the
territory where you are doing fieldresearch because sometimes you can,
even if you want to, you cannot go.
And if you go, and I'm superthankful for that with Salate
because she had much, much moreexperience than me in field work.
(32:26):
So she was really guiding me inthis process of doing research.
And we established really importantlike protocol to do field work.
And I remember in the firsttime, first visit I did in Lamont,
Anita, that was the first territory.
I was always writing to her like, okay.
I have now the opportunity to goto another community, which is far
(32:49):
away, and this, and this and this.
What shall I do.
And so these things are reporting andsaying like, okay, I do have a contact
person, which is not in Colombia, whichis an outsider and she can help me with
this and this, and that's super important.
But I think coming back to thechallenges is like, yeah, how to do
(33:09):
research in a context that is not,unfortunately peaceful, any longer and.
, how you can deal, with the violencethat has been increased in these zones.
But definitely I think it's worthy.
Of course the regions whereyou definitely cannot go.
And that happened last year with thisproject we also did, but also with
(33:34):
another project I was conducted, it waslike, okay, there are some regions where
you definitely cannot go because a tipor I very good practice to do few re
research in conflict affected communitiesis to have a really local partners who
can tell you, if you can do it or youcannot do it, And in many times with
(33:59):
elections, because we had last yearnational elections, for the president
and for the Congress violence arose.
And they were saying, sorry, no.
The, the situation is right now, no,the perfect one, it is very risky.
So just stay there.
And then when they say, nowyou can come, we went to the
field and it was really good.
So I think it's important also tolisten to these local partners and
(34:25):
as I said, to have a protocol withyour team and to say, okay, if this
happen, what we are going to do.
And I also realized, becauselast year, I did a lot of
field work a lot, a lot, a lot.
And in a certain point I realizedwith my team that we were overwhelmed.
So it's very important, and I sayhere, to have psychological support
(34:49):
because like this ex combatantwho was killed was the beginning.
But then you also are with the communitiesand they are telling you stories
about victimization about like many,many things they have gone through.
And you also listen to theex-combatants who were also victims
of certain kinds of violence.
(35:11):
You are listening to many, many, many um,horrific I will say things that happen.
And in a certain point youare really charged, and this
affect you, this affects you.
And so, I did that last year with my team.
We had, also psychological supportand it was super good and relief.
(35:32):
So it's called, yeah, I don't know,I, I, I forgot the name now in, in,
in English, but it's like, if that
Laura May (35:42):
A psychological
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal: first Exactly, exactly. (35:44):
undefined
First aid psychological contact whenyou can see, that's important, eh?
Yeah.
So I think, yeah, the challenges are huge,but you can deal with that definitely.
Because, as I said, it'simportant to do field research.
It's important.
And talking about longrelationships with them.
(36:06):
Something that I have implementedsince I started to work with Solve
was this um, Participatory research.
So to involve them, in the researchprocess, to involve them, in the
outputs of the research is important.
And so that that's why I still havecontact with them because they know
(36:26):
that if I get any project or if I getanything, I go back, to them and I say
them, okay, I have this what we can do.
And so it's important to havealso like a long relationship.
And that's why I'm now also doingmy PhD, regarding this violence
and their incorporation part.
(36:48):
But it has allowed me to dothe PhD because I have held
these long relationships with.
Solveig Richter (36:56):
Yeah.
Maybe to add on that, I mean um,Laura described perfectly her
perspective also from the local level.
And I think in some stages I rememberwe were together in field research and
it wasn't that easy to sometimes alsodifferentiate between your part of that.
Right.
I, I remember there was a, a victimceremony and they were asking all,
all participants in the space.
(37:18):
To participate.
And I said, no, no, no, no.
I, I can't participate.
But Laura was saying, no,I am participating because
I'm a Colombian as well.
I'm part of the conflict here in this,in this country, so it's my country.
But I said, no, I'm notpart of the conflicts.
I have to keep the distance.
But I think also that thispartnership helped to navigate
through these situations.
I mean, you always have to understandwhen you go through the field, You become
(37:40):
part of a community, a part of something.
So you also have to manageexpectations, right?
So, and you are sometimes reallya, a white elephant in a room,
in, in some of the communities.
Of course, everyone is seeing youcoming, even if you have a low profile.
And, and so I mean this academicbackground protects you a little bit.
(38:03):
Of course.
But you also have to take care tomanage expectations in the field.
Why are you coming?
We're just publishing papers.
something like justwhat heck are you doing?
Publishing papers for what?
So of course you also have to, Imean, and that's what we, we realize
during the field work to communicatethis, that you give visibility, right?
So that bringing also communitiestogether, this participatory action
(38:25):
research bringing them in as part of thisresearch, these communities Izing their
grievances or their opinions at a muchhigher level in Bogota, or, I mean, we
had many, many workshops where we thenwe're bringing it to the political level.
Yeah.
So bringing it also back maybeto Germany and to the attention
of some of the policy makers.
(38:47):
And that's what we can do as researchers,but we have to be transparent about
that, that we are not working withcommunities just for extracting knowledge.
And I remember we had in one of ourprojects, tough discussions with
the Afro Colombian communities.
They were really saying, oh, come on,you come here to extract our knowledge.
And we were saying, no, no, no.
I mean, for us it's important alsoto bring something back then to
(39:08):
the communities, even if it's onlyour analysis and our assessment.
The second point I wanted to mentionis, of course it was much different for
me coming from, from Germany, right.
I was not that much immersedinto the field because I could
only travel from time to time.
I'm not able to do ethnographicresearch because I have a full-time
professor, she in Germany, so I haveto teach and all these obligations.
(39:31):
So I was often coming only for asometimes one or two week basis.
And sometimes from the outsideit seemed, well, I'm this typical
northern researcher flying in, andthen everything has to prepare for
me, and everything is beautifully niceand everything has to work out that I
go into the field and then, then I'mthere and everything has to work out.
So that was also sometimes problematic.
But at the same time, I, I mean, for meit was important to, first of all, make my
(39:55):
own opinion not to rely on any outsidersand to establish relationships as well.
I mean, I, I think that the communitiesrealized, of course, that I was
taking sometimes a five hour roadtrip to go to the communities.
Or took a long flight and then tooka, a motorcycle, whatever, right?
(40:16):
So that you do this, that you investalso and you go to the communities to
listen to them, to work with them, evenif it's only for a short period of time.
And I think that's helped.
And again, also louder to continuewith the relationship because they were
realizing, no, they take us seriously.
They do not want only to make I don'tmoney with knowledge or something
(40:37):
like that, but they are reallyinterested in our destiny, so to say,
what's happening here on the ground.
And when Laura mentioned security issues,I mean, this is a very important issue
and I have, from my side as professor,I've supervised many PhD students
in areas of really hot conflict.
I remember one of my PhD studentcalling me, oh, I'm on the borderline
(40:59):
between in the four, between Sudanand the four, and they are asking
me to give them all my data.
What shall I do?
And I was sitting in a nice and warmapartment or back home in Germany
and I, Hmm, what can you advisesomeone now on the border that get
interrogated by police in the four?
And so of course these are someprotocols you have to follow.
You have to prepare yourself and when,when in the paper there is written okay?
(41:23):
You have done, I dunno, 10interviews, focus group.
This one or two focus group discussions.
A focus group discussion is takingmaybe two hours, maybe three
interviews, can take one hour.
Okay?
You calculate it makes2, 3, 4 days of work.
Forget it.
Laura May (41:37):
Yeah.
Solveig Richter (41:38):
I mean, field work means a lot of preparation, a lot of
follow up as, as slow as a debriefing.
Mentally prepared for field work,physical to be physically exhausted.
So, and I think it's worth, but thework behind that, this work goes into
preparing and ethically um, participatoryfield work needs a lot of preparation
(42:03):
and a lot of time, and I think if, ifpeople are really collecting primary
data, and it will be more important withthis artificial intelligence, J T P T
things, right, to really go and see,instead of trusting on some artificial
intelligence that it needs time.
So if PhD students are just going intothe field or other students are going
into the field collecting data, or weas senior professors are going into the
(42:27):
field collecting data, that means a lot.
And I think we should highlight that.
Appreciate that.
When.
People invested energy.
And even though there are alsoecological aspects, which you
have to keep in mind, right?
Flying in and out and all that, andsometimes it's, the argument is made,
well, you can do everything online.
We not, there is a pros and consto this, but we have to keep in
(42:49):
mind the whole picture of it.
And of course we have to be sensitiveto our ecological footprint as well.
But keep in mind that it'simportant as well to to, to go
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (43:02):
I just want to emphasize that, there are a lot
of, you know, westernized methodologieshere in academia, so you have to be
really reliable and they have to betestable and, you know, like all the,
Laura May (43:18):
Oh, I do
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (43:19):
exactly all, all the permit like the elements
or whatever, or the indications you haveto follow in order to be an academician.
But with the communities, that doesn'twork the whole time, you know you go
there with your product for instance,and I know if I go there with the
paper as we have written, they're notgoing to understand which two types
(43:42):
are you talking about, whatever.
So I just wanted to encourage alsodiverse, the diversity in the academia.
And of course we are alwaysmeasured by how many paragraphs
do we publish how many books andeverything, which is also important.
But in order to have like this longrelationship with the communities,
(44:02):
you also need to hear them.
And you also need to knowlike what's important to them.
To them, it's notimportant a paper to them.
It's not important a book, eh to them.
I, I will share experiencehere with a project.
And it was like they wanted amap of the territory that was
made with them and for them.
And it was like social graphy, youknow, in the territory, in Kata.
(44:25):
So the point is Not always.
It's about academicpapers and everything.
There is a bridge, you know?
And we are a bridge.
We can like connect thecommunities with decision makers
locally and internationally.
But we also, eh, well I think we havethe duty also to bring them what they
(44:47):
need to have or they're willing to have.
Laura May (44:50):
super.
No, I think you've made a really valuablepoint there about the need for field work
because Yeah, it's so easy sometimes togo, oh, I could just do a survey online.
Everything will be fine.
Then you've highlighted both bethe rich data you've gained through
having these ongoing relationshipsthat do have that face-to-face time.
But I wanna go back for a momentbecause you've mentioned a couple
of times this increasing violencein this most recent period.
(45:15):
And I was wondering, I mean what kindsof violence are we talking about?
For example, are we talking aboutincreased domestic violence or are
we talking about re recognition ofviolence along form of combat lines?
Like what's actually happening there?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (45:31):
Yes.
Eh, no, we are talking aboutviolence with other armed groups.
You see in the paper in the last paperwe wrote far was almost in all parts of
Colombia, eh particular in the southernpart, but also in the northern part.
So once they demobilized,they left a power vacuum.
(45:52):
And that power vacuum was started tobe disputed to be fulfilled by other
armed actors, including dissidents ofthe farc, who gather either they say
in the beginning of the peace process,no, we are not doing a peace process.
Or after the peace process, theysaid, no, they are not they
were not ,comfortable with it.
(46:13):
And they started to, to gather in thesedecedent groups which is quite normal
enough, the peace processes in the world.
We have dissidents of heart, butwe also have the transformation of
some groups of the para military,with the mobilization of them.
So these new groups and the allgroups started all groups.
I will include here also the E LN, which has been also a guerilla
(46:37):
since the X 64, but it was notas big and as powerful as fart.
But they are also disputing theterritory control in this zone.
So, what we see now is thisconfrontation between these groups
and the state or between them,which led to increased violence.
(46:57):
We are not longer seeing them.
Huge massacres, for instance, thatwere unfortunately very, worldwide
known, like these massacres that theparliamentary did, or we are not any
longer seeing a lot of violence.
But we are seeing a selective violence.
And it means not only they'reassassinating former combatants, but
(47:20):
they are also assassinating socialleaders, that were not related to far.
But social leaders means people,who have a leadership in their
communities or that they wereimplementing the peace agreement,
or they are environmental leaders,human rights defenders It's a large
or a broad meaning of social leader.
(47:42):
But what we are seeing ismore selective violence.
Of course they're massacres,but it's more like five people.
It's not on longer ahuge killing of people.
But it's like, yeah, selectivethings and displacement.
That's what we have seen.
They are just saying,okay, this is our territory.
Now you have to live.
(48:03):
But to be honest, that's as I said, that'swhat I'm right now researching in my PhD.
So maybe in four years or threeyears, let's hope for the best.
I will come back to you and see andtell you, okay, these are the paths
and this is what I have found so far.
Laura May (48:24):
I'll, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
And I guess part of the reason I askabout this re instance of violence is
that it must be taking a, a psychologicaltoll on people to perhaps have this
moment of hope with these peaceaccords finally, after so many years.
And then violence starts reigniting.
(48:44):
Is that something you've seen in yourdiscussion so far with ex-combatants?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal: Yeah, definitely. (48:49):
undefined
Um, I think, and this is my politicalperspective, not my researcher
perspective, I have to admit that afterthe peace agreement the president who
came into the place was right whenPresident Ian Dukin, who was not
or, or who didn't want to implementthe peace agreement because he didn't
(49:13):
agree on the peace process as such.
So he did a lot of damage into thepeace process because of course he had
to implement it, but he started justto implement it really slowly and with a
lot of obstacles and everything and yeah,it it made an impact on, not only the
excu buttons, but also the communities.
(49:35):
In the survey we have implemented withEH, survey in the communities, there is
a particular question that it says, doyou agree that the peace process brought
positive changes for you in the community?
And in the beginning when westarted to implement these surveys
people were like, yes, yes, yes.
Like and now last year thatI also implemented some of
(49:58):
them, they were like, no, no.
So the no started to gain like more weightand or to be more powerful than the Yes.
And you see even myself as a Colombian,I'm a little bit like when, when I see
like the news, when I read them, it'slike, eh, when I know that I was able
(50:19):
to go safely during the first five yearsof the peace agreement to some places.
And now it's like, okay, I have to askthe locals, can I go, what do you think?
Eh, it's really complicated.
And I see that there is yeah, Iwouldn't say people are not not
longer helpful, but they feel alittle bit . She's disappointed.
(50:42):
I, I think that's the word, butSalk, she might have another opinion.
So I, I love to give the wordto her because I know we are
totally different in that sense.
Solveig Richter (50:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we were . Yeah.
Reflecting on the last years hasalways been, I'm overly optimistic, and
Laura is overly pessimistic sometimes.
Oh.
I, I mean, critical, notpessimistic, but, but more critical.
And I, I always step in and see thecommitment of people, the dedication
of the people, the, you know, whatthey can despite this hardship of
(51:15):
conflict, despite the direct, so tosay, affectation by wireless, what they
are still doing and delivering, and howthey are still creative and how they are
still totally committed for their life.
So that always gives mepositive energy, right?
So to see someone under these conditionscan survive these conditions, can
(51:37):
establish resilience, or can even ina very positive, in a very prospective
sense, create society and want toshape the society of the future, right?
And that's what you find in thefield, that of course you find these.
Very critical pessimistic views.
(51:57):
These also which find ofcourse their reason in the non
implementation of the peace agreement.
I mean, you can concretely say, okay,for example, the non-delivery, , the
Nonas assignment of tier of land twoexcom competency incorporation camps has
created problems of economic individualdevelopment or projects, right?
(52:19):
So you can follow everytrace, every step, right?
That was not implemented, you see ofcourse that how it affected, right?
The communities and the local level.
But on the other hand, my impression isthat they do not want to give up, right?
They, they just don't.
I mean, one point is many said, well,in phase of all these difficulties,
(52:41):
many, many more combatants will re-arm.
Yeah.
But actually they did not so much.
There are some peace dividendsthat come out of it and be
just a simple positive life.
So in peace and create something and toget the opportunity to create something.
But I I, I totally agree with Lara inmy five years that we, my positivism and
(53:06):
my optimism needs a bit more criticalreflection in terms of what it really
delivers on the ground and how protractedthis conflict is at the local level.
Sometimes that we need definitely newapproaches for coca substitution, right?
Or, or all of these elements.
And that they all play hand in hand.
(53:28):
That you just cannot come in andsolve one single issue on the local
level and forget the others becausethe others will be the spoilers.
And, you know, if you do not solveprobably coca substitution or substitution
programs, local development programs, ofcourse they have no income if you do not
do not solve infrastructure problems.
(53:49):
They might have the best pinproject, but they cannot transport
a payables to markets, right?
So, see, you have to think, thatthis local level piece dynamics
more inclusively and more from a,I wouldn't say interdisciplinary
perspective, but from allperspectives, bringing them together.
And in some areas it'sdifferent and in others.
(54:10):
But but still, I, I, I still have apositive view seeing all, despite all
these difficulties, the dedicationand commitment of people on the
ground for this peace process.
And that makes me always in a, yeah,I appreciate it and I, I, I think
this prospect of peace is stillthere, even though people realize
(54:30):
the outcomes are less than we expect
Laura May (54:33):
and I also wanna ask you louder.
I mean, I know that you are obviouslyheavily immersed in the Colombian
conflict and research of the Colombianconflict, but do you think that there
are things that people in other conflictscould learn from the work you've done
and from what you've seen on the ground?
In Colombia?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (54:49):
Yes.
I mean, I think for protectedconflicts, it's very interesting
with what we have done so far inColombia or research in Colombia.
But I think like every conflict hasparticularities that cannot be like
overlapped or just generalized, even ifthe Colombian one cannot be generalized.
Imagine with the other ones.
(55:11):
But I think the discussion wehave in the academia, liberal
peace, Hebrew peace, so on.
It's important.
It's important to understand, forinstance, now in Syria where they are
really trying, like since long time ago toconduct peace negotiations and everything.
Okay.
Even if the conflict is totallydifferent and everything.
(55:35):
What was good in the case of Colombiaand also with the transition and with
the reintegration of former combatantsthat can be also used, like the good
practices that we experience and that wehad the how they can be also useful to
adapt them to other conflict contexts.
It's like, you know what we havelearned, for instance from the Liberia
(56:00):
um, I don't know, Northern IrelandSudan, experiences of reintegration.
These experience have helpedalso to the Colombian conflict
to find the proper tools.
So I think by researching Colombiaand knowing these good practices,
we are going awesome to learn or toadapt them to other conflicts so they
(56:20):
can be or, or end in a positive way.
Laura May (56:24):
Look, solv louder.
Thank you so much for joining me today.
And for those who are interestedin learning more about your
work, where can they find you?
Solveig Richter (56:33):
We can't find me usually in an office, in a live station,
sometimes in field work in Colombia,
Laura May (56:38):
Yep.
Solveig Richter (56:39):
or somewhere else or conferences.
No, but I'm, yeah, justa University of Livero.
I'm also on Twitter.
Twitter, so I, I think yeah, allthese are ways to contact me.
Laura May (56:52):
Fantastic.
And louder.
What about you?
Laura Camila Barrios Sabogal (56:55):
The same Twitter, my email and the proof, the
Peace Research Institute, Frankfurt.
Yeah, those
Laura May (57:05):
Brilliant.
And for everyone else, until next time,this is Laura May with the Conflict
Tipping Podcast for mediate.com.
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