35. The History of Rhovanion part 1: Gondor and the kin-strife (Lore)

Let Josh James and Callum talk you through the history that lies between Gondor and the lost Kingdom of Rhovanion. Prepare for a real deep lore dive which we hope will provide you with some new ideas for running a AiME/LOTR 5e RPG game in Rhovanion!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Fellowship Phase, an Adventures in Middle Earth podcast.
I'm Josh and that's Callum.
We're going to give you inside information on how to find your own path through Tolkien's world.

(01:07):
Callum, you absolutely nailed that narrative introduction.
Why, thank you.
I've been practicing that for a long time, that one.
And, it's really interesting to think about where that came from, and what it contains. 8 00:01:20,924.999 --> 00:01:22,725 The words, in particular, are great.
.999But, enough about the introduction, because, here's a man who needs no introduction.

(01:27):
The one, the one, the one and only, That was weird.
The one and only Dr.
James Worthington. 13 00:01:34,870.1 --> 00:01:44,890 Callum, are you glitching? This is what happens when we record things out of order, folks.
.999Callum loses grip on reality. 15 00:01:48,529.999 --> 00:01:51,519.8005 Welcome to the fellowship phase, in temporality. 16 00:01:52,759.9005 --> 00:01:53,669.9005 Hello, James. 17 00:01:53,839.9005 --> 00:01:54,609.9005 Hello, Callum. 18 00:01:55,669.9005 --> 00:01:56,489.9005 Hello, Josh. 19 00:01:56,669.9005 --> 00:01:57,249.9005 Hello, James. 20 00:01:58,189.9005 --> 00:01:58,799.9005 Hello, Callum. 21 00:01:58,949.9005 --> 00:01:59,669.9005 Hello, Josh. 22 00:01:59,769.9005 --> 00:02:00,219.9005 There we go. 23 00:02:00,329.9005 --> 00:02:02,49.9005 There's a nice bit of symmetry. 24 00:02:02,399.9005 --> 00:02:05,609.9005 I'll try and get this under control so that we can talk about something sensible. 25 00:02:06,179.8995 --> 00:02:13,339.9005 Unfortunately, this is a topic that Callum wants to talk about, which means hyper glitchy Callum is gonna have to introduce what we're talking about. 26 00:02:15,229.9005 --> 00:02:21,339.9005 Do you feel ready to tell us? What are we talking about? What are we talking about? We're talking about what we're talking about. 27 00:02:21,389.9005 --> 00:02:32,159.9 And what we're talking about is Have you, have you had too much sugar? Or not enough, who knows? There is a sweet spot somewhere in the middle, literally a sweet spot. 28 00:02:32,759.901 --> 00:02:36,430.351 Today we're talking about the history of Rhovanion. 29 00:02:37,814.901 --> 00:02:42,4.701 Why do you say it like that? R R R R R Vanian. 30 00:02:42,4.801 --> 00:02:44,924.801 Ha ha ha ha ha! That's how they say it in Sindarin. 31 00:02:45,144.801 --> 00:02:50,874.8 Because, interestingly, R V A N I AN is the Sindarin for Wilderland. 32 00:02:50,874.9 --> 00:02:58,194.8015 And what's the Wilderland? The Wilderland is the setting for Adventures in Middle Earth. 33 00:02:58,884.8015 --> 00:03:05,14.8015 And maybe sometimes, soon, be a setting for London Ring's 5th edition roleplaying game. 34 00:03:05,484.8015 --> 00:03:20,344.8015 Ravanion, Wilderland, we're talking about the history of that, and why is that interesting to me? If you're running a roleplaying game in Middle Earth, then this is an amazing setting to bring your players along and play a game. 35 00:03:20,344.8015 --> 00:03:24,484.8015 Because, I think we've talked about this before, it's got a lot of untapped potential. 36 00:03:24,794.8015 --> 00:03:31,989.8015 There's There's some, outlines of the story and what happened there, drawn in by Tolkien. 37 00:03:32,869.8015 --> 00:03:34,959.8015 But I'm sorry, that was my fault. 38 00:03:35,319.8015 --> 00:03:39,89.8005 What is happening? I'm gonna break James, and it's very easy, I don't know why. 39 00:03:39,749.8015 --> 00:03:43,249.8025 There's so much room to fill in, to colour in. 40 00:03:43,544.8025 --> 00:03:46,654.8025 Between the lines of what Tolkien set up in Wilderland. 41 00:03:47,134.8025 --> 00:03:50,394.8025 And Adventures of Middle earth has so much about this area. 42 00:03:50,724.8025 --> 00:03:53,694.8025 And specifically I'm talking about the player's guide. 43 00:03:54,24.8025 --> 00:04:00,344.8035 And also in the Rhovanion region guide, which is rich with places and people and stories to explore. 44 00:04:01,954.8025 --> 00:04:23,124.8025 But, one thing I think that is slightly missing is a bit more of a deep dive into what lore exists because I think that for me, when I'm running a game, one of the most exciting things to do is to tie in some aspect of Tolkien's lore, which is a bit niche. 45 00:04:23,794.8025 --> 00:04:28,164.8025 And then some players will never know about it, and they can't unpick what Tolkien wrote. 46 00:04:28,524.8025 --> 00:04:32,324.8025 And some players, ahem, James, Ahem. 47 00:04:32,794.8025 --> 00:04:39,104.8005 Will be like, oh my god, he's referencing this niche event that happened in the lore 1, 500 years ago before now. 48 00:04:39,454.8005 --> 00:04:44,254.8015 And although his player doesn't know that, he knows that, and I can see that he recognizes that and smiles. 49 00:04:44,744.8015 --> 00:04:45,284.8015 Character. 50 00:04:45,444.8015 --> 00:04:46,64.8015 I'm the player. 51 00:04:47,379.8015 --> 00:04:47,679.8015 Oh, yeah. 52 00:04:50,439.8015 --> 00:04:51,439.8015 I play Tor. 53 00:04:51,489.8015 --> 00:04:52,939.8015 Tor doesn't play me. 54 00:04:53,549.8015 --> 00:04:54,159.8015 Okay. 55 00:04:55,69.8015 --> 00:04:56,549.8015 That's a different conversation, I think. 56 00:04:56,759.8015 --> 00:04:58,479.8015 Let's not pull at that thread this time. 57 00:04:59,99.8015 --> 00:05:16,664.8025 Why are you running a roleplaying game in Middle Earth if you don't want to reference and nerd out on loitering stuff? You could just do it in some other setting and then you wouldn't have the difficulties of this game, which is what Trying to stay true to what Tolkien did and trying to, not mess up the lore. 58 00:05:17,94.8025 --> 00:05:18,94.8025 I, I care about that. 59 00:05:18,94.8025 --> 00:05:20,804.8015 You don't have to you can change what happens if you want. 60 00:05:21,294.8025 --> 00:05:23,454.8025 But I, I want that for me and the players. 61 00:05:23,494.8015 --> 00:05:25,114.8015 And I think that's what's good about this. 62 00:05:25,264.8025 --> 00:05:36,54.8025 And so I thought it'd be really good if we could talk about the history of this region and that can be a springboard to be like, Oh, I love that bit of history. 63 00:05:36,104.8025 --> 00:05:39,734.8025 I'm going to include that in very well argued. 64 00:05:40,629.8025 --> 00:05:43,59.8025 And that's my speech closing speech done. 65 00:05:43,529.8025 --> 00:05:51,329.8025 I'll take no further questions I won't tell you anything about it. 66 00:05:51,449.8025 --> 00:05:51,739.8025 Goodbye. 67 00:05:52,249.8025 --> 00:05:56,639.8025 I suppose people can send their questions to The fellowship phase at gmail. 68 00:05:56,669.8025 --> 00:05:56,989.8025 com. 69 00:05:56,989.8025 --> 00:06:28,984.7015 Maybe your question could be What was the rest of the episode going to contain? We're not telling you something this is something i've spoken about before in the pod I think that You History, which we're all nerdy about anyway, is important in role playing games because, at least very traditional fantasy ones, which are very much about dungeons and dungeon delving, all of the kind of ruins and dungeon and treasure that you see implies that there is history of some kind, that something happened previously. 70 00:06:29,679.7025 --> 00:06:35,979.7025 To allow there to be these ruins that you explore, or these magical swords, or these poems that you have to explore. 71 00:06:36,969.7025 --> 00:06:44,749.7025 So I think you're right, whether the players or the lun the Lungeon Master? Nope, the Lore Master, particularly cares about the history itself. 72 00:06:44,939.7015 --> 00:06:54,649.7025 I think the fact that it exists and it is, I know no one who's listening knows this, but I can see them on my screen laughing at me now and it's hard to keep going. 73 00:06:54,679.7015 --> 00:06:55,879.7025 The Dungeon Master, I love it. 74 00:06:56,219.7015 --> 00:07:03,659.7035 The Dungeon Master, even if the players in the Dungeon Master don't, like the lore is not the thing that drives them forward to the game. 75 00:07:03,679.7025 --> 00:07:14,424.7035 The fact it exists and that if a player, when exploring a dungeon or a tomb and can ask, who is this person that we're in the tomb of? And you can say, There is a story to that. 76 00:07:15,224.7035 --> 00:07:16,214.7035 I think it's important. 77 00:07:16,264.7035 --> 00:07:23,894.7035 And I must say that games is the lore master of the group, as it were, that you did know this part of the lore. 78 00:07:23,944.7035 --> 00:07:27,244.7025 I didn't know a lot of the lore we're about to talk about before we played. 79 00:07:27,814.7035 --> 00:07:34,14.7035 And I think it meant the game had a quite different complexion for me because I learned about it while we were playing, which I found really interesting. 80 00:07:34,904.7035 --> 00:07:41,194.7035 I also really tried hard once we started playing not to look up some of the things we discovered because I was determined. 81 00:07:41,214.7035 --> 00:07:43,94.7035 I was like, no, I don't know it. 82 00:07:43,194.7025 --> 00:07:44,894.6035 Let my character find out, which was fun. 83 00:07:46,364.7035 --> 00:07:55,944.7035 So I guess a structure slightly about what we're talking about, I think probably it's like most things in history, at least the way I like learning my history is starting at the beginning and going forward. 84 00:07:56,434.7035 --> 00:08:02,814.7025 And one thing to say is that we're not going to talk about everything, all the history of Rhovanion, because that would be too all encompassing. 85 00:08:02,814.7035 --> 00:08:14,644.7035 It's a big region, just for those people that are not maybe aware of it, it's essentially, and James correct me if I'm wrong, the area of Middle Earth, which is below the Grey Mountains, which kind of lead along the Northern edge. 86 00:08:14,994.7035 --> 00:08:32,49.604 And east of the Misty Mountains, which the ones that the Fellowship cross, and it contains Mirkwood and Dale and Erebor and Anduin Vale going to the west side, just to the east of the Misty Mountains all the way down to Mordor, and it doesn't go too far east before you get to Rune and stuff. 87 00:08:32,889.704 --> 00:08:54,429.705 But what we're really going to talk about is the history of the area of a kingdom of men, which is to the east of Mirkwood, mostly and they were like the Northmen, so the people that ended up probably becoming the Beornings, the Woodmen, maybe, and Dale, a bit unclear. 88 00:08:54,999.705 --> 00:08:57,969.705 And there's something called the Kingdom of Rhovanion. 89 00:08:58,354.705 --> 00:08:59,204.705 They're in the mix. 90 00:08:59,494.705 --> 00:08:59,784.705 Yeah. 91 00:09:00,694.705 --> 00:09:02,484.705 We're not going to talk about the history of the elves there. 92 00:09:02,484.705 --> 00:09:06,64.705 I'm not talking about, not in this episode anyway, and we're not going to talk about the dwarves there. 93 00:09:06,104.705 --> 00:09:09,564.705 Pre empted my bit where I was going to go in the first stage. 94 00:09:10,784.704 --> 00:09:11,374.705 Oh no. 95 00:09:11,484.705 --> 00:09:12,104.705 Damn you. 96 00:09:13,664.705 --> 00:09:14,134.705 It's fine. 97 00:09:14,514.705 --> 00:09:14,874.705 I'll live. 98 00:09:15,214.705 --> 00:09:15,824.705 I've ruined it. 99 00:09:16,94.705 --> 00:09:16,714.705 You've ruined it. 100 00:09:17,64.704 --> 00:09:19,344.704 What happened in the first stage, James, though? I don't know. 101 00:09:19,344.704 --> 00:09:20,74.704 There were some elves. 102 00:09:20,74.704 --> 00:09:21,434.704 There's always elves in the first stage. 103 00:09:22,819.704 --> 00:09:24,409.704 I think there's maybe through it, there's tiny bits. 104 00:09:24,419.704 --> 00:09:26,929.704 There's nothing really, nothing of interest happened in the first age. 105 00:09:28,439.704 --> 00:09:28,859.704 There we go. 106 00:09:29,229.704 --> 00:09:30,29.704 In this area. 107 00:09:30,29.804 --> 00:09:33,629.604 In this area. 108 00:09:34,209.704 --> 00:09:35,49.704 The Tolkien scholar. 109 00:09:36,999.704 --> 00:09:39,979.705 Nothing of interest happened before Build by Fandom Ring. 110 00:09:41,879.705 --> 00:09:42,159.705 No. 111 00:09:42,259.705 --> 00:10:00,349.704 Obviously the reason why the events of The Hobbit and The Hobbit's a weird one actually because it's originally not, In its original conception, not necessarily in the first instance conceived as being part of the same world as the events of the First Age. 112 00:10:00,629.704 --> 00:10:01,639.703 There are nods to it. 113 00:10:01,649.704 --> 00:10:08,399.702 There are nods to the Fall of Gondolin in the Trouble with the Troll Horde and Glambring and Sting. 114 00:10:08,399.702 --> 00:10:20,919.802 But the story itself, Is very far removed as we now know, talking off the fact just filled in all this history, which you know what kind of the saying is part of the richness of the setting. 115 00:10:21,209.802 --> 00:10:28,749.802 And here's the thing there are parts of it that are more filled in and there are parts of it that are a bit sketchier. 116 00:10:29,589.802 --> 00:10:32,589.802 But talking was very good at this. 117 00:10:32,969.802 --> 00:10:44,959.802 I think we all, at least I'm not saying in this room, but not in the same room in these rooms, this call, in this virtual space, agree that talking was very good at this. 118 00:10:45,489.802 --> 00:10:48,789.802 And I think joking about the first stage and going back that far, I think. 119 00:10:49,339.802 --> 00:11:01,569.803 If we're just looking at the Third Age and the sort of 3, 000 years or so that make up the Third Age, there's a very compelling ebb and flow to the history of Middle earth throughout. 120 00:11:02,214.803 --> 00:11:17,724.803 These millennia that, to me just feels a lot more real history than, for example, sorry, Georgia, Martin Westeros, which is has, 2000 years is a long time, but the spans of time. 121 00:11:18,359.803 --> 00:11:26,509.803 In the backstory of Sunrise and Fire are truly enormous, but then I'm just like, And nothing much changes. 122 00:11:26,589.803 --> 00:11:31,459.802 Whereas I feel like in Middle Earth, in Westeros, it's a good example. 123 00:11:31,459.802 --> 00:11:35,429.8005 It's there's these seven kingdoms and there's not that much flux in what that means or borders. 124 00:11:35,479.8005 --> 00:11:40,959.8005 There's lots of episodes where a lot happens in a short space of time and then everything resets a bit. 125 00:11:41,594.8005 --> 00:11:43,304.8005 Yeah, he's and that area's not filled in. 126 00:11:44,674.8005 --> 00:12:06,364.8005 In, going back to Rhovanion, and, and, I guess how sketched in that is, before we started recording, James said something which I thought was very true, which is that really, Rhovanion exists as something that It is a tool or, something that supports the history of Gondor, which is a much more fleshed out part. 127 00:12:06,784.8005 --> 00:12:18,64.8005 And you see this a lot in Tolkien where other niche, smaller areas, more distant cultures or peoples are only really sketched out when they come into the story of things that Tolkien wrote more about. 128 00:12:18,74.7995 --> 00:12:21,844.8005 So the history of Gondor, pretty much all the kings are named, all the stewards are named. 129 00:12:22,224.8005 --> 00:12:23,794.8005 There's a lot of history there. 130 00:12:23,864.9005 --> 00:12:33,804.86716667 And Rhovanion, as the sort of kingdom of Rhovanion in the north, really comes fleshed out when it is in contact with Gondor. 131 00:12:34,364.86716667 --> 00:12:38,74.86616667 And outside those areas, it doesn't really get talked about. 132 00:12:38,74.96616667 --> 00:12:39,614.86716667 I think it would be fair to say. 133 00:12:40,214.86716667 --> 00:12:59,644.86716667 But yeah, I think what you're, what we were both picking up on there is it speaks to Tolkien's process where he would be very thoughtful in the way he built things out and try and find the interesting wrinkles and interesting causation of why things end up the way that they do. 134 00:13:00,224.86716667 --> 00:13:12,554.86716667 And I think we do have to touch on Gondor a bit, because you can't talk about the history of classical Europe without talking about Rome, you can't really talk about the history of Middle Earth without talking about Gondor yeah, it's an analogy. 135 00:13:12,604.86716667 --> 00:13:22,94.86616667 Like the Suebi or some other Germanic tribe, and like a lot of what we know about them comes from records of Rome, Roman historians talking about them. 136 00:13:22,414.86716667 --> 00:13:27,174.86616667 Or, to give an even more specific reference point, the Goths. 137 00:13:27,724.86716667 --> 00:13:41,154.86716667 And I bring them up because the small number of names that we have for Native Rhovanionpeople, these names are in terms of their production gothic essentially. 138 00:13:41,154.86716667 --> 00:13:41,214.86716667 Yeah. 139 00:13:41,219.86716667 --> 00:13:44,4.86716667 Or heavily influenced by gothic and talking. 140 00:13:44,349.86716667 --> 00:13:47,679.86716667 Being a linguist was very fascinated by gothic as a language. 141 00:13:48,239.86716667 --> 00:13:52,799.86716667 What I saw that we do know about, because there wasn't a lot left. 142 00:13:52,859.86716667 --> 00:14:21,744.86716667 My understanding, not my expertise, but it was one of those weird little Interests that Tolkien had that he does often tend to put into his creative work, and in this case, there is something interesting about the relationship that the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire had to the Goths, and the relationship that Gondor has to the various peoples that occupy the or come into the Northeastern Middle earth. 143 00:14:22,264.86716667 --> 00:14:33,234.86716667 And I think I said this before in the previous episode, but again, one of the things that I do like about the way that Tolkien writes his fictional history is that there is a sense of people move around. 144 00:14:33,704.86716667 --> 00:14:35,144.86716667 They don't stay in one place. 145 00:14:35,424.86616667 --> 00:14:37,114.86716667 Things don't stay fixed. 146 00:14:37,724.86716667 --> 00:14:52,504.86716667 And Another great example of that is that, as Callum was saying, the people of Rhovanion mixed, were related to and further after the collapse of the kingdom, we'll get to that mixed in with the peoples of Dale and the Beornings and the other folk of the Vale of Anduin. 147 00:14:52,924.86716667 --> 00:14:57,244.86716667 But also a specific group of them went to the north of the Vale of Anduin. 148 00:14:57,244.86716667 --> 00:15:03,784.86716667 And became the Ethiot, and therefore were the ancestors of the Rohirrim. 149 00:15:04,84.86716667 --> 00:15:11,774.86816667 So they moved from, east of Mirkwood to north of the Andean Bay Vale and then south into what eventually became Rohan. 150 00:15:11,774.96816667 --> 00:15:14,364.86716667 And I think that is brilliant, essentially. 151 00:15:14,414.86716667 --> 00:15:23,854.86716667 It just, in terms of representing how Before the sort of era of more fixed nation states, peoples really did operate more. 152 00:15:23,854.96716667 --> 00:15:36,254.96666667 Yeah, we look at that in the history of Britain, the Anglo Saxons, where do they come from? The Scots, where do they come from? Like all these people, the history of Britain is one of people's moving and migrating. 153 00:15:36,255.06666667 --> 00:15:40,414.96666667 And the idea of a sort of fixed nationality is a very modern construct in a way. 154 00:15:40,584.96666667 --> 00:15:49,304.96666667 So if we look like what he's written, when is that, when is this kingdom of Ravani? So the first mention really is mid 13th century of the third age, is my understanding. 155 00:15:49,624.96666667 --> 00:15:58,124.86666667 1248, Third Age, I think, is the first mention of the kingdom of Rivania, or a kingdom in that area., 156 00:15:58,874.86666667 --> 00:16:02,564.86666667 So that's quite, far back in some ways in the Third Age. 157 00:16:02,634.86666667 --> 00:16:08,984.86666667 There's no, we don't know what happened before then, who these people were, But, there was many kingdoms of men around the lands. 158 00:16:09,254.86666667 --> 00:16:11,604.86666667 There's a lot of history that isn't covered in detail. 159 00:16:11,904.86666667 --> 00:16:14,134.86566667 And it doesn't really matter for purposes of this. 160 00:16:14,764.86666667 --> 00:16:15,234.86666667 And that. 161 00:16:16,264.86666667 --> 00:16:30,744.86666667 That's framed as well through the eyes of Gondor, isn't it, that the first mention of Rhovanion and the Northmen is because they interacted with Gondor, Gondorians who defeated the Easterlings, I think John makes a really excellent point. 162 00:16:30,774.86666667 --> 00:16:36,844.86566667 That's actually really important for how talking operated, which is if you read. 163 00:16:37,279.86566667 --> 00:17:05,524.8661667 Some of that from Matthew's Lord of the Rings, the way that he frames, like, where he got his understanding of Middle earth from, he frames it as if it, was from historical documents, which is basically the Galaxy Quest, but historical documents that were passed down for him, and that comes via essentially, the Tooks that Pippin, while he was, living after the events of the watering and journeying between the Shire and Gondor. 164 00:17:05,884.8661667 --> 00:17:14,344.7671667 Yeah, he was, copying a lot of material down from the archives, the sacred texts in Minas Tirith. 165 00:17:15,54.8671667 --> 00:17:31,544.7681667 and combining it with the material that Bilbo and Frodo and Sam had written that forms the Lord of the Rings, so within Tolkien's work, this idea that all the knowledge that we have is actually located within what specific groups and specific characters know within the world. 166 00:17:31,934.7681667 --> 00:17:32,414.7681667 Yes. 167 00:17:33,84.7681667 --> 00:17:34,524.7681667 Which I just think is really fascinating. 168 00:17:34,694.7681667 --> 00:17:38,64.6681667 That's a really neat way of being like, oh, you don't, you didn't explain this. 169 00:17:38,64.6681667 --> 00:17:40,34.6681667 And it's They didn't know these characters would know. 170 00:17:40,34.6681667 --> 00:17:41,24.6681667 Yeah, absolutely. 171 00:17:41,534.6681667 --> 00:17:42,144.6681667 Absolutely. 172 00:17:42,444.6681667 --> 00:18:03,454.6681667 That I guess maybe Josh, what would you want to know? If you were going to run a game around about the kingdom of Rhovanion, what would you want to know about the history? What questions would you ask? The big question that I have in knowing that there was a kingdom of Rhovanion is why there is not now a kingdom of Rhovanion to me, the big question. 173 00:18:04,14.6681667 --> 00:18:16,434.6671667 How do we, how do we go backwards to understand where we are now? I guess the why there isn't the Kingdom of Revanion is like many kingdoms in Middle earth is that it blew up it got destroyed. 174 00:18:16,794.6671667 --> 00:18:18,704.6671667 Our crises. 175 00:18:19,224.6671667 --> 00:18:24,354.6671667 A series of crises, which is quite, again, as James earlier on, it's believable. 176 00:18:24,634.6671667 --> 00:18:27,654.6671667 It's not and then a dragon came and then they all died. 177 00:18:27,704.6671667 --> 00:18:29,570.6671667 It's that did happen that one time, but yes. 178 00:18:30,24.6671667 --> 00:18:52,214.6671667 The decline of this kingdom, we only, we don't hear about it, we don't know what it was like at its highest strength, but what we know is that over several hundred years, the people that constituted that kingdom declined into the kingdom no longer existing through a series of invasions, subjugations, and plagues were really the main effects. 179 00:18:52,784.6671667 --> 00:18:58,229.6671667 As first mentioned, mid 13th century of the third age. 180 00:18:58,489.6671667 --> 00:19:13,909.6651667 And the context of that is that Gondor expanding and they're at the north and there was a King Narmaseel I of Gondor and he had his nephew was serving as regent. 181 00:19:14,829.6651667 --> 00:19:17,609.6651667 And basically they led an expedition north. 182 00:19:17,609.6651667 --> 00:19:21,909.6651667 Because the nephew was competent and the king was not interested in actually running anything. 183 00:19:22,239.6651667 --> 00:19:25,549.6651667 And he led an expedition north into Rune. 184 00:19:25,739.6651667 --> 00:19:32,649.6651667 We see the soldiers of Rune in the films are the ones that are styled by Jackson with with the sort of gold and armor. 185 00:19:32,739.6651667 --> 00:19:35,619.6651667 And we see some of them in scenes and they're really interesting design. 186 00:19:35,619.6651667 --> 00:19:44,959.6656667 So they go up north and they defeat these slings and it's mentioned that they have substantial health on these Northmen, kingdom of Rivanian who's led by someone. 187 00:19:45,584.6656667 --> 00:19:51,164.6646667 Called Vidugavia, which is the sort of gothic name that, that James mentions. 188 00:19:51,694.6646667 --> 00:19:56,604.6646667 And after that, Vidugavia, this man, he becomes an ally of Gondor. 189 00:19:56,654.6646667 --> 00:19:56,944.6646667 yes. 190 00:19:57,34.6636667 --> 00:20:00,294.6646667 So this Vidya Gavya becomes a strong ally. 191 00:20:00,434.6646667 --> 00:20:14,229.6646667 And then the regent And Minolcar sends his son, who has two different names in the lore, which Tolkien does a lot, which I found when I was reading the Simularean extremely confusing when Tolkien switches between different names without really much explanation. 192 00:20:14,809.6646667 --> 00:20:22,149.6646667 Anyway small complaint, but he sends his son, who's called Valacar, as an ambassador to Vidugavia. 193 00:20:24,689.6646667 --> 00:20:36,59.6646667 But this Valakar, this, the son of the Regent of Gondor, first sees his father's design, and he gets enamored with the culture of the North and marries into that family, someone called Vidumavia. 194 00:20:36,839.6636667 --> 00:20:39,119.6636667 And then they have a son called Vinifyra. 195 00:20:40,189.6646667 --> 00:20:44,9.6646667 And basically, Minilcar, who was the Regent, succeeds to the throne. 196 00:20:44,89.6646667 --> 00:20:46,739.6646667 His son, who's married to this Northman, becomes the heir. 197 00:20:46,739.7646667 --> 00:20:52,394.7636667 Valakar is named in Gondor's Eldacar, which is a much more Gondorian name. 198 00:20:52,744.7646667 --> 00:20:58,494.7646667 Like the V, he's almost, he's become so ingrained in his culture, he's taken on their V. 199 00:20:58,584.7646667 --> 00:21:09,574.8656667 Interestingly, speaking of names Eldekar, I believe, means Elf Helm in Quenya, Which is the name that at one point Tolkien was considering giving to Aragorn. 200 00:21:09,924.8656667 --> 00:21:13,814.8656667 Ah, because he went for Elessar, didn't he, which is Elfstar? Elfstone. 201 00:21:13,814.9656667 --> 00:21:16,74.8656667 Elfstone, Elfstone. 202 00:21:17,169.8656667 --> 00:21:19,629.8656667 And these are all all English names, basically. 203 00:21:21,259.8656667 --> 00:21:22,869.8656667 So he was like, I've got this cool name. 204 00:21:22,869.8656667 --> 00:21:23,809.8656667 I want to use somewhere. 205 00:21:23,879.8656667 --> 00:21:24,669.8656667 He does this a lot. 206 00:21:25,189.8656667 --> 00:21:26,149.8656667 I'll pop it in here. 207 00:21:26,179.8656667 --> 00:21:27,329.8656667 I make this cool story. 208 00:21:28,489.8656667 --> 00:21:33,999.8656667 So you can see there's going to be a bit of a problem here because so we've got Eldekar or Valakar as he's known. 209 00:21:34,9.8646667 --> 00:21:39,839.8656667 He's, he's the heir to the Gondorian throne, but he's gone up north and he's married this princess. 210 00:21:39,839.9656667 --> 00:21:40,939.7656667 Foreigner. 211 00:21:40,939.9656667 --> 00:21:53,509.8656667 And we can see in, in Lord of the Rings, so Aragorn, his family have been chiefs and all for so long, but they're linked through bloodline to Isildur, who was the king of Gondor. 212 00:21:53,869.8656667 --> 00:22:05,624.8656667 And so bloodline and this blood heritage Nobility and royalty, tokens placing a lot of important that and gone go saying that the go dorians do, and that has power. 213 00:22:06,774.8656667 --> 00:22:14,314.8656667 So you can see that the natural conclusion of that thought is that if this line all the way unbroken to Aragon is so important. 214 00:22:14,939.9656667 --> 00:22:24,269.9656667 Surely at some point in the history of Gondor, there must have been issues with that, must have been times where that strongly held belief was challenged, where that created issues. 215 00:22:24,749.9646667 --> 00:22:28,399.9661667 So I can almost see this is Tolkien saying it's almost it's almost inevitable. 216 00:22:28,449.9661667 --> 00:22:35,449.9661667 If you're saying that Aragorn is the chosen one because of his bloodline, then you almost have to say, okay let's think about that further. 217 00:22:35,449.9661667 --> 00:22:39,904.9661667 What happened when that was, that created difficulties? Fast forward a little bit. 218 00:22:40,144.9661667 --> 00:22:49,444.9661667 Eldekar then becomes king, but he has married this northern woman who's called Vidumavai. 219 00:22:49,445.0661667 --> 00:22:51,197.5159167 No idea how to pronounce this. 220 00:22:51,197.5159167 --> 00:22:53,826.1905417 And there is a conflict, there's a civil war. 221 00:22:53,826.1905417 --> 00:23:02,154.9661667 Really, I think I don't, I don't really know how many civil wars written about in gondorian history, James? Not, not a huge number. 222 00:23:02,204.9661667 --> 00:23:06,349.9661667 Luckily, this is This is like the Gondorian Civil War. 223 00:23:06,689.9661667 --> 00:23:11,89.9661667 There may be other moments of unrest, but this is the big one. 224 00:23:12,119.9661667 --> 00:23:13,129.9661667 Actually, there's not that many. 225 00:23:13,149.9661667 --> 00:23:22,469.9661667 If you look at Roman or Eastern Roman Empire, the history of real history, there's a lot of civil wars and internal conflict. 226 00:23:23,9.9661667 --> 00:23:27,139.9661667 He becomes the throne and there are people in one. 227 00:23:27,309.9661667 --> 00:23:28,139.9661667 Oh, correction. 228 00:23:28,169.9661667 --> 00:23:29,249.8661667 Sorry, Calum. 229 00:23:29,249.9661667 --> 00:23:33,799.9651667 Eldekar is the Quenya name, the Gondorian name for Valakar's son. 230 00:23:34,319.9651667 --> 00:23:35,569.9641667 Not for Valakar himself. 231 00:23:38,799.9651667 --> 00:23:39,129.9651667 Oh. 232 00:23:40,189.9641667 --> 00:23:40,559.9641667 Sorry. 233 00:23:41,219.9641667 --> 00:23:41,819.9641667 Yes. 234 00:23:41,979.9631667 --> 00:23:45,329.9641667 Yeah, Eldekar is the name that he goes, is, he's, is his regal name. 235 00:23:45,399.9641667 --> 00:23:47,297.4641667 But he was born B'nath B'nath B'nath. 236 00:23:47,477.5641667 --> 00:23:52,797.5641667 Tharia, not to be confused with Venathira, that was a reference for two other people in the world. 237 00:23:53,277.5641667 --> 00:24:06,567.5661667 But yeah, so it's Valakar and then Eldekar, and Eldekar, because, it's because he is essentially half Rhovanion ish that his, cousin of some degree. 238 00:24:07,187.5661667 --> 00:24:09,757.5661667 Castamere rises up against him. 239 00:24:10,197.5661667 --> 00:24:13,377.5661667 Yeah, yeah, so yeah, sorry, I got that wrong. 240 00:24:13,407.5661667 --> 00:24:14,607.5661667 So maybe I'll try to edit that out. 241 00:24:14,637.5661667 --> 00:24:15,547.5661667 Maybe I won't be able to. 242 00:24:15,687.5661667 --> 00:24:22,577.4651667 Valacar is the king that went north and had the son who's called Eldacar. 243 00:24:22,787.4661667 --> 00:24:28,897.4661667 And when Eldacar takes the throne, so when Valacar dies, Eldacar takes the throne and he's only half Dunedain. 244 00:24:29,542.4661667 --> 00:24:32,602.4661667 So he's only, only half of the Royal line, as they say it. 245 00:24:32,972.4661667 --> 00:24:40,22.4671667 And so at that point, this other person called Castamere, who was Lord of Ships, so a very powerful person, challenges him. 246 00:24:40,732.4671667 --> 00:24:48,12.4671667 And he wasn't in a direct line of succession, but his royal background and his lineage and influence put him in a position to challenge the king. 247 00:24:48,342.4671667 --> 00:24:53,632.4671667 And the line of king is unbroken in quote unquote marks from Isildur all the way to Aragorn. 248 00:24:53,682.4661667 --> 00:24:59,342.4661667 It's not a straight line, obviously sometimes the line deviates and it's not exactly the usual line of succession, which is. 249 00:24:59,767.4661667 --> 00:25:18,382.4651667 Primogeniture, so Firstborn's son the and there was this, there's this real conflict set up in Gondor, which is between the people that are loyal to the, the line of succession and the rightful king, and those who say actually, The bloodline is loyal. 250 00:25:18,382.4651667 --> 00:25:21,812.4651667 I think that's set up, look at like modern, Harry Potter is a good example. 251 00:25:22,172.4651667 --> 00:25:34,912.4641667 It's not really a great trait, is it? I would say it's actually very interesting for all that Tolkien gets some grief for placing so much emphasis on what, if we're honest, are racial hierarchies. 252 00:25:35,432.4641667 --> 00:25:36,932.4641667 Of a kind of medieval. 253 00:25:37,252.4641667 --> 00:25:45,362.4641667 Rather than modern nature, but nevertheless and this, questionable things about elves being the fairest and what that really means. 254 00:25:45,682.4641667 --> 00:25:55,282.4631667 But moving past that, it is interesting that in the narrative of the Kinstrife, the purists are very much the bad guys. 255 00:25:56,212.4631667 --> 00:26:05,732.4631667 Yeah, they are very much the ones who are causing the problems, and that is emphasized by the fact that Castamere is an unpopular king. 256 00:26:06,652.4631667 --> 00:26:12,382.4621667 He, Aldecar is the one when he returns because he gets exiled, right? He has to flee. 257 00:26:12,887.4631667 --> 00:26:19,207.4631667 When Castamere takes power in Osgiliath, which is obviously still intact at this point. 258 00:26:19,737.4631667 --> 00:26:22,477.4636667 Castamere is the one who has the power base in Gondor, but. 259 00:26:23,552.4636667 --> 00:26:29,732.4636667 Ultimately, Eldecar was able to return to Pal in great part because Castamere is a bad king and an usurper. 260 00:26:30,892.4636667 --> 00:26:33,492.3636667 And that is how he is characterized. 261 00:26:33,492.4636667 --> 00:26:44,82.4636667 There's this interesting conflict between different, to what Callan was saying earlier, there's this interesting conflict over different forms of legitimacy and just to see around power in a dynastic structure. 262 00:26:44,842.4636667 --> 00:26:53,822.4636667 To boil that down, then, James, would you say that no one was very happy with the reign of Castamere? Oh, God. 263 00:26:54,22.4636667 --> 00:27:00,652.4636667 He did it again! I feel I had to throw something out for the Westeros fans who we maybe slighted a little bit on the subject. 264 00:27:01,662.4636667 --> 00:27:05,892.4636667 I think just ruling over Josh is bringing a chaos and a nonsense, as usual. 265 00:27:06,762.4636667 --> 00:27:08,132.4636667 Yeah, it's definitely always Josh. 266 00:27:08,222.4636667 --> 00:27:08,892.4636667 Always Josh. 267 00:27:09,132.4636667 --> 00:27:24,692.4641667 I think the way I see it in Tolkien is it doesn't really matter about the blood, like genetics, as we see in the modern age I feel like it's, it ties into like how he, shows that where the strength is and the sort of magic. 268 00:27:24,917.4651667 --> 00:27:28,367.4651667 Of Middle Earth, which is that it's in words, it's in vows. 269 00:27:28,477.4651667 --> 00:27:35,887.4626667 So it's if you make a promise, you make an oath they don't swear oaths in the fellowship because it's all power, the oath breakers, they are deathless living. 270 00:27:36,487.4636667 --> 00:27:46,857.4626667 And it's almost like the line of Kings is more about, that sort of ongoing promise and word rather than, a bloodline, a blood connection. 271 00:27:46,917.4626667 --> 00:27:54,737.4621667 And so it's almost like he's saying here okay, the quote unquote blood's purity is diluted, but actually that doesn't matter. 272 00:27:55,17.4631667 --> 00:27:56,197.4631667 And like Aragon. 273 00:27:56,397.4631667 --> 00:27:59,477.4631667 Lives way longer than his predecessor. 274 00:27:59,477.4631667 --> 00:28:03,317.4631667 So it's not like an inherited trend that they live longer. 275 00:28:03,317.4631667 --> 00:28:20,557.4631667 These juin, it's more about like how well they conform to the ideal of a Lendio and Sil and the Nu Andorians and the promise to the Elfs and like how well they align to that, ethos and I almost feel like that's the point that I take from it, which is doesn't really matter. 276 00:28:20,587.4631667 --> 00:28:22,387.4631667 It's not a, it's not an inherited thing. 277 00:28:22,987.4631667 --> 00:28:23,562.4631667 It's more about. 278 00:28:25,862.4631667 --> 00:28:31,502.4631667 Again, I think I might have said this before at some point, but there's lots of really interesting things going on with Aragorn. 279 00:28:31,502.4631667 --> 00:28:33,392.4641667 This isn't an Aragorn podcast episode. 280 00:28:33,392.4641667 --> 00:28:38,102.4641667 Yeah, you're on way off topic, aren't you? And this is entirely my fault, I'm sure. 281 00:28:38,142.4641667 --> 00:29:05,152.4641667 But just interesting about, interesting thing about Aragorn is, as Callum says His achievements almost are, what allow him to stand as the exemplar of his lineage, but his lineage is still important, I would say, and particularly the fact that he has attended to both Isildur as the, in the book, the Kings of Arnor and partially the Because of the events that happened in the period we are actually talking about today. 282 00:29:05,562.4641667 --> 00:29:12,862.4651667 He is also at send Avanarion, like the Kings of Gondor, such as Valacar and Eldacar work. 283 00:29:13,332.4651667 --> 00:29:22,417.4651667 So he has an extra claim to the legitimacy because unlike Eldacar, he Or one of his ancestors, more accurately, has the claim from both sides.. 284 00:29:23,207.4651667 --> 00:29:35,27.4651667 The point is I think there's a very interesting thing in Tolkien's work about how power within diagnostic structures operate and the strife is almost in some ways a negative image of the. 285 00:29:37,132.4651667 --> 00:29:43,652.4651667 Because, it's not, as counted, it's not the end of the line of Anarion, but it is a significant blow to their power. 286 00:29:44,182.4651667 --> 00:29:51,362.4651667 And it, it cut, an entire, basically, strand of the family goes to Umbar and becomes enemies of Gondor, basically. 287 00:29:51,862.4661667 --> 00:29:55,772.4661667 And, and that means that Gondor loses control over that part of the world. 288 00:29:57,302.4661667 --> 00:30:07,472.4651667 So I guess, going back to what James went over there about what, what happens in the Kinstripe and how that relates to the history of Vanyan and why we're talking about it at all. 289 00:30:07,892.4661667 --> 00:30:26,672.4661667 Eldekar, he's the son of, he's, half Northmen, he comes, he becomes king, Castamira and others say no, they attack, they wage war, they throw Eldekar out of Askeliath, the capital city, which we see ruined in Lord of the Rings the set of blaze, the bridge. 290 00:30:27,292.4661667 --> 00:30:32,872.4661667 Center of that has got something called the dumbest stars, where one of the planter was held, one of the biggest planters. 291 00:30:33,292.4661667 --> 00:30:34,102.4661667 It's destroyed. 292 00:30:34,102.4661667 --> 00:30:39,977.4661667 The Planter's lost Elder car flee and he goes North Asir, rear Gonder for some time. 293 00:30:40,557.4661667 --> 00:30:43,132.4661667 And Elder Carr goes north to bill Power. 294 00:30:43,137.4661667 --> 00:30:45,652.4661667 Meanwhile, Kasir basically suppresses people. 295 00:30:45,862.4661667 --> 00:30:47,872.4661667 He's let's move the capital to Pillar. 296 00:30:49,622.4661667 --> 00:30:56,512.4661667 Eldekar's in the north, and he's building a power base, and eventually he comes back and takes back the rule. 297 00:30:56,802.4661667 --> 00:31:05,522.4661667 Now what's interesting to me there is, the king of Gondor comes north to Ravanion, he's kicked out of Gondor. 298 00:31:06,992.4651667 --> 00:31:15,572.4661667 Who did he take with him? What did he do whilst he was there? What impact did it have on the area? Maybe they took some important artifacts or other things. 299 00:31:15,742.4661667 --> 00:31:17,422.4661667 Maybe they left some of the stuff there. 300 00:31:17,742.4661667 --> 00:31:20,392.4651667 This is a real way to We talked about dungeons earlier on. 301 00:31:20,632.4661667 --> 00:31:21,482.4661667 Here's some stuff. 302 00:31:21,862.4661667 --> 00:31:22,902.4671667 You find the stuff in the dungeon. 303 00:31:22,952.4671667 --> 00:31:25,752.4671667 How did it get there? Oh there's all this stuff about the Kindstrife. 304 00:31:26,502.4661667 --> 00:31:37,224.9171667 Or, what were the links that were going on there? So what was the links between the Gondorians and the Rhovanions? What happened? There was enough link that, essentially they're intertwined by marriage. 305 00:31:37,724.9171667 --> 00:31:38,74.9171667 Yeah. 306 00:31:38,334.9171667 --> 00:31:39,604.9171667 There's stuff left there. 307 00:31:40,254.9171667 --> 00:31:41,784.9161667 There'll be ruins of these people. 308 00:31:41,814.9171667 --> 00:31:44,664.9171667 Because we see that in, Josh, you said that right at the beginning. 309 00:31:45,134.9171667 --> 00:31:49,904.9171667 Dungeons and Dragons, there are dungeons, there's going to be ruins of the history of Ravanion. 310 00:31:50,264.9171667 --> 00:31:52,404.9171667 Let's have some Gondorian links there, some stuff. 311 00:31:52,534.9171667 --> 00:31:56,324.9171667 Let's open this up to players who are not familiar with that part of the story. 312 00:31:56,714.9171667 --> 00:32:09,214.9166667 So it's like bringing the Cairn Strife into Ravanion, whereas in Gondor it'd just be like, this is full of history, it's rich with it, that that's going to be a well known event, whereas in Ravanion it's probably lost a lot of it. 313 00:32:10,104.9166667 --> 00:32:30,854.9156667 Yes and Gondor has the benefit of being a, within the world, a literary textual culture, whereas we know the Rohirrim, who are the descendants of the Irtheod, who are the descendants of, at least some of, the people of Iranian, are an oral culture. 314 00:32:31,234.9156667 --> 00:32:34,704.9156667 They tell stories, they don't necessarily write things down. 315 00:32:35,294.9156667 --> 00:32:41,264.9156667 The way that, Knowledge, certain knowledge does get, pa passed down within those culture. 316 00:32:41,264.9156667 --> 00:32:46,634.9156667 And obviously, real world, we have, the examples of, Homer's work and the Odyssey. 317 00:32:46,874.9156667 --> 00:32:53,134.9156667 To what extent, there were conflicts in the aian there were conflicts in that path of the world between parties. 318 00:32:53,484.9156667 --> 00:33:00,824.9161667 That were comparable to what Homer describes but how much of it in terms of the politics and the personalities is, real. 319 00:33:01,474.9161667 --> 00:33:16,754.9161667 So I wonder whether the Rohirrim have a legend that is loosely based on the Kinstrife, but none of the names are correct and the locations have changed and and the story has evolved and shifted over time. 320 00:33:17,269.9161667 --> 00:33:19,629.9161667 There's so much to delve into there. 321 00:33:20,339.9161667 --> 00:33:33,734.9161667 But I guess just rounding out what Josh actually asked about, which was, Why isn't there a history of Rhovanion anymore? The Kinstripe, we've dwelt on that quite a lot, and it's not really that late, but that's probably the main bit of history where it comes up. 322 00:33:33,744.9161667 --> 00:33:41,434.9161667 After that, really, there's a couple of comments about people's called the Wainriders which I think is something to do with the rounded chariots. 323 00:33:41,684.9161667 --> 00:33:42,34.9161667 Yes. 324 00:33:42,284.9151667 --> 00:33:44,964.9151667 And they came from the east, they conquer lots of areas. 325 00:33:45,24.9161667 --> 00:33:56,899.9161667 And essentially there's some throwaway comments that when the people of Ravanion are mentioned again, it's, they were attacked, they were enslaved, there was a great plague, as there's many plagues in Tolkien's work and then those people go to Northmen. 326 00:33:56,899.9161667 --> 00:33:58,949.9161667 So there's really very little else. 327 00:33:59,629.9161667 --> 00:34:01,729.9161667 So this is the most important bit. 328 00:34:01,789.9151667 --> 00:34:09,589.9161667 So for me, that's a real dangling gem to be like, oh, I'm going to latch onto this. 329 00:34:09,699.9161667 --> 00:34:11,199.9161667 I'm going to introduce this into my game. 330 00:34:11,879.9151667 --> 00:34:14,89.9141667 There's no central narrative of Ovanian. 331 00:34:14,129.9151667 --> 00:34:18,614.8818333 It is spread throughout various different bits and pieces that Tolkien wrote. 332 00:34:18,614.8818333 --> 00:34:21,644.9151667 It's a bit of an appendix, there's a bit of an unfinished tales. 333 00:34:21,764.9151667 --> 00:34:23,194.9151667 There's a bit of it in the history of Middle earth. 334 00:34:23,884.9151667 --> 00:34:33,844.9131667 So it is one of those things that, where some things Tolkien covered in very, as we said at the start, great depths and detail, there are other things that I just scattered and fragmented throughout his works. 335 00:34:34,474.9131667 --> 00:34:44,464.9141667 What we do know of Rhovanion after the Kinstripe is essentially that it suffered worse, the same things that Gondor suffered after the Kinstripe. 336 00:34:44,465.0141667 --> 00:35:01,524.9131667 So the effect of the play and as you said, the Wainriders and the combination of that essentially leading to massive depopulation to the extent that it wasn't possible to sustain an organized kingdom or even a confederation of tribes. 337 00:35:01,994.9131667 --> 00:35:04,764.9141667 There was just not, there was just not enough people there anymore. 338 00:35:05,354.9141667 --> 00:35:11,499.9141667 Which again, I think is a very Realistic depiction of the collapse of a society. 339 00:35:12,639.9141667 --> 00:35:19,809.9141667 Yeah, factors are very, if you've no great knowledge of Middle Earth history, but do have European history. 340 00:35:19,809.9141667 --> 00:35:23,589.9141667 The factors are very similar to the factors that kind of Middle Ages. 341 00:35:24,24.9141667 --> 00:35:50,394.9141667 Europe faced, you've got civil war invaders from the East and series of plagues, destabilized kingdoms, great movements of people around the areas before settling down into the kind of more established, well in Tolkien it's societies and kingdoms, but We think of sort of nation states, which is the point at which the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings really come in where there's a much more sort of settled state of things. 342 00:35:51,314.9141667 --> 00:35:56,94.9141667 And then the events of those books are the inciting instant that kind of kick starts that again. 343 00:35:56,594.9131667 --> 00:36:06,414.9141667 One of my favorite little details from early in the Rings is the Hobbits when they're talking about someone that they think is no good say they don't know the name of the king. 344 00:36:07,184.9141667 --> 00:36:29,269.9151667 There is no king in the north but the idea of the king, the idea that there is someone who offers like a sense of stability and purpose, who is the state embodied, that is something that still exists in the folk memory, in the cultural memory of, hobbits and probably other people in Ariadne have, do have a distant memory of that. 345 00:36:29,624.9151667 --> 00:36:34,254.9151667 Because basically honor is falling apart at the same time that gondolas are treating. 346 00:36:34,274.9151667 --> 00:36:37,114.9151667 That's why they can't really help each other out very much. 347 00:36:37,614.9151667 --> 00:36:38,924.9161667 And Rhovanion is collapsing. 348 00:36:38,924.9161667 --> 00:36:48,704.8171667 There are, as Josh says, periods in, European history that mirrored this these collapses, the period that in which, the Western Roman empire collapsed. 349 00:36:49,764.8171667 --> 00:36:57,579.8181667 And then also the, 14th century crisis, which is encompasses both the black death and the 100 years war. 350 00:36:58,869.8181667 --> 00:37:03,939.8181667 These are the kinds of events that reshape the world that people live in. 351 00:37:05,829.8181667 --> 00:37:17,279.8171667 But yes, I also want to get back and acknowledge Pam's point, which I think is excellent, which is it's really interesting when there are these moments where different parts of the world come into contact and influence each other. 352 00:37:18,169.8171667 --> 00:37:21,859.8171667 And that is something that can be very fertile. 353 00:37:22,534.8171667 --> 00:37:49,459.8156667 As indeed it has been for our campaign We've got I suppose you can compare and contrast gondor as we see it, you know in the third age as this kind of You mighty, although declining kingdom one of the most advanced sort of societies of men, it spreads over a huge area, it's militaristic, it's scholarly, whereas the Wilderland is without any kind of real sort of structure of one kingdom, it's a variety of societies interact. 354 00:37:51,579.8166667 --> 00:37:56,529.8166667 If it weren't for plagues and Invaders from the East. 355 00:37:56,639.8166667 --> 00:38:05,739.8166667 Could a kingdom of the scale of Gondor have existed in Wilderland, do you think? Would it have been possible to get there? That's actually a really interesting question. 356 00:38:06,399.8156667 --> 00:38:13,349.8136667 Based on what Tolkien has given us, I strongly suspect that while, the king of Iran may have called himself King. 357 00:38:13,349.8146667 --> 00:38:23,769.8141667 What he really was a particularly powerful chieftain Gondor and Arnor had a bit of a kickstart because they were linked to Numenor, which is, don't know how technologically advanced, but was gifted. 358 00:38:24,319.8141667 --> 00:38:31,229.8156667 The men of Numenor they had a huge amount of boons to, to become technologically advanced and help to get there. 359 00:38:31,789.8156667 --> 00:38:39,389.8156667 So I guess in a way the development of these advanced cultures less mirrors real history in that it's almost supernatural. 360 00:38:39,399.8156667 --> 00:38:41,229.8156667 There's something magical about it in a way. 361 00:38:41,229.9156667 --> 00:38:44,689.8166667 The degree of supernatural aid, as you said, Karl. 362 00:38:44,949.8166667 --> 00:39:03,943.8556667 Because in the moral world, if you have enough stability in time, I think not in the modern world, in the real world, then I think given enough stability and time and trade, it's perfectly possible that area would have become more, more developed, more advanced, they're in connection with a more advanced cultures in Gondor, the dwarves and the elves. 363 00:39:04,13.8556667 --> 00:39:10,683.8566667 And we see that throughout Tolkien's work, the dwarves help the elves get skills in areas of stonework. 364 00:39:10,733.8566667 --> 00:39:17,353.8566667 The, in the first stage, but that's over a longer period of time and maybe things just move more slowly in Middle Earth. 365 00:39:17,903.8566667 --> 00:39:20,373.8566667 There's a degree to which that is necessarily true, I think. 366 00:39:21,263.8566667 --> 00:39:26,713.7576667 The reason I ask the question is, alternate history is always a fun philosophical question, but I actually think from a game point of view. 367 00:39:26,713.8576667 --> 00:39:36,113.8576667 Perspective, the game is set in Wilderland in what is a fragmented, quite wild, fringes of civilization in some respects. 368 00:39:37,463.8576667 --> 00:39:52,253.8576667 Is that an inevitable state or is that the result of what went on historically? And I don't think that's necessarily a right or wrong answer, but I think for lawmakers and players, that question could be helpful in understanding why. 369 00:39:53,38.8576667 --> 00:39:54,658.8576667 the society is the way that it is. 370 00:39:55,788.8576667 --> 00:40:08,138.8586667 And I guess what I would say is that there are active debates within the real world about real history, family factors for the success of particular societies and peoples. 371 00:40:08,138.9586667 --> 00:40:12,638.925 And I, I don't think we want to, Wave into that. 372 00:40:13,368.925 --> 00:40:30,158.9255 No, let's stick with Middle Earth so we've talked there in quite Broad brush at some points, narrow brush approach to the history of the kingdom of Rhovanion and the Kin Strife which is a really interesting period of both Gondorian and Rhovanion history. 373 00:40:30,528.9255 --> 00:40:38,668.9255 So why are we talking about this here? How does it relate to running a role in the Time of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. 374 00:40:38,728.9255 --> 00:40:53,568.9245 I guess maybe next time we'll talk a little bit about how we use that or how I use that and along the players in our game to come up with some interesting adventures and quests and themes and that sort of thing. 375 00:40:54,283.9255 --> 00:40:55,163.9255 It's been a chaotic one. 376 00:40:56,663.9255 --> 00:40:58,213.9255 It was a beginning of chaos. 377 00:40:58,313.9255 --> 00:41:04,493.9255 There was a middle of order and then I feel like we need a little bit of chaos at the end to round us out. 378 00:41:04,753.9245 --> 00:41:06,433.9245 James, it's your turn to create chaos. 379 00:41:06,434.0245 --> 00:41:09,603.9245 You can't tell someone to create chaos, Callum. 380 00:41:09,603.9255 --> 00:41:10,683.9255 That's not chaotic. 381 00:41:11,603.9255 --> 00:41:15,227.9255 It's, it's a contradiction in time actually, there, the opposite of that. 382 00:41:15,227.9255 --> 00:41:19,427.9255 So I was watching Quinn's Quest, the guy from shut Up and Sit Down. 383 00:41:19,702.9255 --> 00:41:21,692.9255 He does the Yes review on YouTube. 384 00:41:22,172.9255 --> 00:41:23,332.9255 Excellent recommend. 385 00:41:23,632.9255 --> 00:41:30,282.9255 And he was doing one about the Heart, which is the sequel to the Spire, which was very unusual RPG. 386 00:41:30,282.9255 --> 00:41:37,212.9255 The point is one of the classes in that has the ability to un chaos a situation so they can go into a situation and make it more ordered. 387 00:41:37,422.9255 --> 00:41:38,652.9255 They can undo chaos in it. 388 00:41:40,122.9255 --> 00:41:40,802.9255 That's very interesting. 389 00:41:41,102.9255 --> 00:42:10,57.8255 Is it possible to get someone of that class into this podcast on a regular basis? Yeah what's that class called? No emails. 390 00:42:10,367.9255 --> 00:42:19,297.9255 Except on party business and comment suggestions and questions to the fellowship phase at gmail.