36. The History of Rhovanion part 2: from Lore to Game, bite by bite (Lore)

Those pesky Rhovanions are back! And this time they've taken a big bite out of Mirkwood. Rejoin the triumvirate of Rhovanion RPGs JJC (James, Josh, Callum) as they discuss how you can implement the lore of the lost Kingdom of Rhovanion into your own Middle Earth based adventure

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Fellowship Phase, an Adventures in Middle Earth podcast.
I'm Josh and that's Callum.
We're going to give you inside information on how to find your own path through Tolkien's world. 4 00:01:12,71.836734694 --> 00:01:14,298.370068027 Hello there. 5 00:01:16,558.470068027 --> 00:01:17,238.470068027 Greetings. 6 00:01:21,228.470068027 --> 00:01:22,668.470068027 I decided to be controversial. 7 00:01:25,238.470068027 --> 00:01:29,38.470068027 I'm not sure if I'm willing to accept this new form of pleasantry. 8 00:01:31,253.470068027 --> 00:01:38,503.470068027 Let's go with it because you're essential to this podcast, but Calum and I are going to have to discuss after this whether greetings is an acceptable way in. 9 00:01:39,383.470068027 --> 00:01:46,3.46906803 I think it probably is given that one of the titles of the chapters of the book is many greetings, isn't it? Many meetings. 10 00:01:46,233.47006803 --> 00:01:51,623.46956803 Oh I'm Irish that, am I in charge of the podcast now? Is that how it works? You are. 11 00:01:51,678.46956803 --> 00:01:54,168.46956803 There's gonna be a change on the council of Callum's out. 12 00:01:54,173.46956803 --> 00:01:58,708.46956803 James is in, say, greeting and I'll just get thrown off the bridge. 13 00:02:00,988.46956803 --> 00:02:02,968.46956803 what's your throwing off the bridge noise? Callum? No. 14 00:02:05,338.46956803 --> 00:02:05,968.46956803 Excellent work. 15 00:02:06,673.46956803 --> 00:02:10,303.46956803 Oh, you kill your family, they throw you under a bridge. 16 00:02:10,533.46956803 --> 00:02:10,563.46956803 Okay. 17 00:02:11,333.46956803 --> 00:02:23,393.46956803 So we're, we talked last time about the history of the Kingdom of Ian, a Kingdom of men in the north and its links to Godo, the kin strife and all the rich history. 18 00:02:23,743.46956803 --> 00:02:30,493.46956803 And we teased that this time we would talk about how we would implement that into a game of ventures, middle Earth or other rings, role playing game. 19 00:02:31,73.46956803 --> 00:02:40,253.46956803 So we can throw to Josh here, because on a previous episode, quite an early episode, we talked about your character, Josh Halmyr. 20 00:02:40,253.56956803 --> 00:02:41,933.36956803 Yes. 21 00:02:43,113.46956803 --> 00:02:47,773.46956803 And he had a mission quest type thing. 22 00:02:48,303.46956803 --> 00:02:50,113.46956803 Did he not? He did. 23 00:02:50,183.46956803 --> 00:02:53,713.46956803 And this is something that we talked about in character creation. 24 00:02:54,433.46956803 --> 00:03:05,893.46956803 It's something I really, as someone who's DM'd a lot and was creating a character midway through your campaign, although we've now played for so long that it was actually quite early in the campaign, it felt midway through the campaign. 25 00:03:06,573.46956803 --> 00:03:25,838.46956803 I wanted to make sure there were some hooks in my backstory that would allow you to introduce Halmyr into the story, but without the Me forcing the plot to go a particular way because I thought if I come up with a really rigid backstory and then you think, oh that doesn't make any sense with everything we're going to do that would be cool. 26 00:03:25,868.46956803 --> 00:03:34,758.46856803 So I thought what's good open ended had that my uncle Baron or was missing and he was missing with a family heirloom. 27 00:03:34,828.46956803 --> 00:03:35,398.46956803 Guiltless. 28 00:03:35,698.46956803 --> 00:03:37,168.46956803 Which is the family sword. 29 00:03:37,248.46956803 --> 00:03:41,138.46956803 So how mayor had a Gondorian man from Dol Amroth. 30 00:03:41,188.46956803 --> 00:03:42,908.46956803 He'd gone off to fight in the army. 31 00:03:42,948.46956803 --> 00:03:44,658.46956803 His commission effectively finished. 32 00:03:45,98.46956803 --> 00:03:48,488.46956803 He returns home to Dol Amroth to see his uncle. 33 00:03:48,498.46956803 --> 00:03:51,998.46956803 Who's his like mentor is the true father figure. 34 00:03:52,348.46956803 --> 00:03:53,788.36956803 He's vanished with the sword. 35 00:03:54,78.46956803 --> 00:03:56,928.46956803 Halmyr sets out north to trace his footsteps. 36 00:03:57,528.46956803 --> 00:03:59,838.46956803 We talked about it as part of character creation. 37 00:03:59,838.46956803 --> 00:04:13,168.46956803 So you have the sword, you have Baranor, the questions of, where have they gone? Why must be something of some significance here? And my kind of main driving mission for Halmyr was to just follow this. 38 00:04:14,403.46956803 --> 00:04:24,53.46956803 These breadcrumbs, as and when they might be presented, which I hoped meant that you'd be able to weave it into the plot without throwing off all the other characters. 39 00:04:25,873.46956803 --> 00:04:34,98.36956803 What I didn't know, and I mentioned this on our Ravanian episode last time, I didn't know a huge amount of the lore of the game. 40 00:04:34,388.46956803 --> 00:04:36,788.46956803 Ian of the kin strife or anything like that. 41 00:04:37,358.46956803 --> 00:04:47,668.46956803 So I learned about it in the, at the same time as playing the game and interacting with those elements, which would Excellent. 42 00:04:48,788.46956803 --> 00:04:54,878.46956803 Which kinda makes sense for your character who was more, less of a bookworm, maybe if you'd been a scholar, maybe you would've known those lengths. 43 00:04:54,878.46956803 --> 00:05:06,708.46956803 Who knows? But that was a gift, it's like instantly, like why would a man have gone, I think that's one of the cha inherent challenges in bothering role playing is that on one hand, you want people to have a lot of choice in character creation. 44 00:05:06,718.46956803 --> 00:05:08,738.46956803 You don't want them to be like, You are all men of Dale. 45 00:05:08,788.46956803 --> 00:05:10,758.46956803 That's Unless you're doing a set thing. 46 00:05:10,768.46956803 --> 00:05:13,278.46956803 At the moment we're doing some games which are like, Dwarf themes. 47 00:05:13,298.46956803 --> 00:05:14,958.46856803 So it's I think it's fair enough to say you're all Dwarves. 48 00:05:15,78.46956803 --> 00:05:17,68.46856803 Or if you're playing the Shire, You're all Hobbits. 49 00:05:17,918.46856803 --> 00:05:28,373.46856803 But what if people like create a man of gonder and they're in, the wildlands, why are they there? And so I think that's a really important question to get with your players. 50 00:05:29,3.46856803 --> 00:05:33,243.46856803 And I don't think it's enough to just say they're adventuring because it's like there's plenty of stuff that needs done. 51 00:05:33,353.46856803 --> 00:05:33,643.46856803 Yeah. 52 00:05:34,23.46856803 --> 00:05:34,723.46856803 Closer to home. 53 00:05:34,743.46856803 --> 00:05:36,933.46856803 So this is a great hook for me. 54 00:05:37,243.46856803 --> 00:05:38,493.46856803 There's immediately okay. 55 00:05:39,213.46856803 --> 00:05:41,923.46856803 I don't actually have to answer the question of why Halmy is there. 56 00:05:42,23.46856803 --> 00:05:44,673.46756803 I have to answer the question of why Baranor, his uncle is there. 57 00:05:45,318.46856803 --> 00:05:52,288.46856803 And then I get to be like why is Byronor there? What's the interesting thing? What would drive someone from Gondor to come? Here we go. 58 00:05:52,308.46856803 --> 00:05:55,478.46856803 The history of Vanyan and the kin strife, the links between Gondor. 59 00:05:55,948.46856803 --> 00:05:56,548.46856803 Here we go. 60 00:05:56,548.46856803 --> 00:05:57,418.46856803 I'm going to explore this. 61 00:05:58,228.46856803 --> 00:05:58,948.46856803 We're on a roll. 62 00:05:59,198.46756803 --> 00:05:59,838.46856803 It's great. 63 00:06:00,478.46756803 --> 00:06:01,108.46856803 I'm excited. 64 00:06:01,838.46856803 --> 00:06:05,118.46856803 It really is one of my fondest memories of the campaign. 65 00:06:05,128.46856803 --> 00:06:13,598.46856803 It's just the period where We were, back in the Dale Islands and on Barron's Trail in that part of the world. 66 00:06:13,838.46856803 --> 00:06:14,138.46856803 Yeah. 67 00:06:14,378.46856803 --> 00:06:18,998.46856803 And it really did have a slight Indiana Jonesy vibe of what I'm covering. 68 00:06:18,998.46856803 --> 00:06:19,958.46856803 Some history. 69 00:06:20,138.46856803 --> 00:06:23,278.46856803 We're putting the pieces together, we're on the trail. 70 00:06:23,528.46856803 --> 00:06:25,803.46856803 We know how far behind we are. 71 00:06:26,303.46856803 --> 00:06:30,303.46856803 But, and then there is, another faction we're racing against to some degree. 72 00:06:30,303.46856803 --> 00:06:31,953.46856803 We don't really know a lot about them. 73 00:06:32,463.46856803 --> 00:06:34,323.46856803 So there's just a lot of good mystery. 74 00:06:34,543.46856803 --> 00:06:44,483.46806803 But I think an important lesson here though, is that it combines that history with some personal stakes about running a game and what makes storylines compelling. 75 00:06:44,783.46706803 --> 00:06:46,633.46806803 The fact that yes, we're uncovering history. 76 00:06:46,693.46806803 --> 00:06:47,473.46706803 That is fun. 77 00:06:47,523.46806803 --> 00:06:48,493.46806803 That is interesting. 78 00:06:48,783.46706803 --> 00:06:54,153.36806803 But also for for Halmyr, it is personally important to find Baranor. 79 00:06:54,683.36806803 --> 00:06:58,853.36706803 I think that the dovetailing of those two elements is good. 80 00:06:59,568.36806803 --> 00:07:04,498.36806803 Yeah, because suddenly you're like, if I just dump a little lore and you'd be like, there was this thing called the kin stripe, blah, blah, blah. 81 00:07:04,498.36806803 --> 00:07:08,718.36806803 Everyone's Oh, why do we care? James would care, but no, maybe your players wouldn't. 82 00:07:08,868.36806803 --> 00:07:09,538.36806803 They probably will. 83 00:07:09,568.36806803 --> 00:07:20,938.36806803 Cause we're all nerds, aren't we? so maybe to talk through this quest, because I think we did actually, basically, I put in all the lore that there was about, reflecting Neurovamium into the game through this medium. 84 00:07:20,978.36806803 --> 00:07:26,128.36706803 And I think there's other ways you could approach this for the players, but maybe this is a more organic one. 85 00:07:26,148.36906803 --> 00:07:29,698.36906803 Because I guess from a Loremaster perspective, Prepping this is quite straightforward. 86 00:07:29,708.36906803 --> 00:07:40,693.36906803 All I had to say was, what was Baroner's motivations to go north, and where did he go when, and what did he do? That's not that hard to prep, really. 87 00:07:40,993.36906803 --> 00:07:46,343.36906803 And then it means that when you're interacting with people, the NPCs might know some parts of the story, but not all. 88 00:07:46,653.36906803 --> 00:07:51,843.36806803 And that makes it a bit of a mystery, and can sometimes be a bit confusing for players. 89 00:07:52,423.37006803 --> 00:08:09,203.37006803 But, ultimately, I think, ended I hope in a series of adventures, were it wasn't entirely clear from the beginning where it was leading, so Josh, maybe you can lead us in the conversation of the story of Hal Re Barron and I can fill in the sort of where the lower was behind it. 90 00:08:10,353.37006803 --> 00:08:12,123.37006803 So before. 91 00:08:12,548.37006803 --> 00:08:13,838.37006803 actually joining the campaign. 92 00:08:13,848.37006803 --> 00:08:24,148.37006803 Halmyr'd moved north he'd been to Minas Tirith and then effectively followed the trail up the Anduin Gerandros where he served as a soldier, further up towards Lorien. 93 00:08:24,188.37006803 --> 00:08:32,243.37006803 He had some kind of knowledge, not a huge amount, and he had some suspicions about where Baranor would go. 94 00:08:33,243.37006803 --> 00:08:43,23.37006803 He had a vague sense that maybe the elves, that Dol Amroth has a city, has a lot of connections with the elves, and his lineage is slightly tied in with that, and he speaks Sindarin. 95 00:08:43,333.36906803 --> 00:08:46,583.36906803 He thought, oh, maybe he could visit Lorien, and he would get answers from the elves. 96 00:08:46,813.37006803 --> 00:08:50,953.37006803 That was a non starter, because you don't, you can't just drop in to see the elves at Lorien. 97 00:08:51,573.37006803 --> 00:09:03,593.37006803 He ends up at the Gladden Fields, moving north and he's captured by the orcs who were there at the time when our existing party was effectively finishing that quest. 98 00:09:03,623.37106803 --> 00:09:05,403.37106803 That's how he was introduced into the campaign. 99 00:09:05,413.37006803 --> 00:09:14,38.37106803 He was rescued as an unconscious NPC who, when he recovered with Theodric, transitioned over. 100 00:09:14,98.37106803 --> 00:09:23,378.37006803 So he basically traveled north, had some adventures on the way, and the trope was very much, he is a fish out of water in the north. 101 00:09:23,758.37106803 --> 00:09:30,308.37106803 He is a very different area to what he's used to, the people's very different, for him it's like truly wild. 102 00:09:31,333.37106803 --> 00:09:32,963.37106803 And he doesn't get along with dwarves. 103 00:09:33,93.37106803 --> 00:09:33,643.37106803 He does not. 104 00:09:33,693.37106803 --> 00:09:34,723.37106803 He doesn't really know dwarves. 105 00:09:34,733.37106803 --> 00:09:35,723.37106803 He doesn't get along with them. 106 00:09:35,743.37106803 --> 00:09:48,313.37106803 And probably our first quest was to cross Mirkwood from west to east with Bofri the dwarf, who was looking to reinstitute the reinstate rather the Old Forest Road. 107 00:09:49,263.37006803 --> 00:09:51,253.37106803 He did not like Bofri. 108 00:09:51,983.37106803 --> 00:09:55,243.37106803 He didn't get on with, they just didn't gel at all. 109 00:09:55,243.37106803 --> 00:09:56,43.37106803 He didn't really get. 110 00:09:57,198.37106803 --> 00:10:01,628.37106803 Dwarvish kind of culture and they clashed quite a lot. 111 00:10:02,468.37106803 --> 00:10:12,368.37006803 I'm trying to think when the first record really important kind of bread crumb was he'd have rumors all along and you did a really good job of weaving it. 112 00:10:12,378.37106803 --> 00:10:26,728.37106803 Sometimes the rumors were very vague, and it would be like, Oh, a man of well, something that you and I worked on to make it as helpful quest to pursue and also to add a bit of intrigue was that Baron or looks very like how. 113 00:10:26,728.37106803 --> 00:10:26,988.37106803 Later. 114 00:10:27,313.37106803 --> 00:10:35,893.37106803 So that was a starting point was, have you seen someone similar to me, much paler skin and darker hair, even bone structure similar to his uncle. 115 00:10:36,853.37106803 --> 00:10:43,833.37006803 And so I would ask a lot of NPCs have you seen a man who looks like me, who would be quite unusual for these parts. 116 00:10:45,213.37106803 --> 00:10:52,93.37106803 And you did a good job of being quite vague oh, there were rumors of an unusual man in black traveling in this direction. 117 00:10:52,173.37106803 --> 00:11:01,883.37106803 Which could have meant a whole myriad of things, good, bad, but it was good because it felt it gave us as a group things like, oh, that might be a breadcrumb to follow. 118 00:11:02,293.37106803 --> 00:11:23,473.46906803 We end up through the east at Esgaroth and at Dale and learnt a bit more from Bard, where we actually managed to nail down that Baranor had visited Dale and had spoken to Bard and had snuck into Erebor to speak to Dayne. 119 00:11:23,533.47006803 --> 00:11:24,813.47006803 Those were important. 120 00:11:25,158.47006803 --> 00:11:25,598.47006803 Steps. 121 00:11:25,648.47006803 --> 00:11:28,218.47006803 Those were we knew exactly when they had happened. 122 00:11:28,618.47006803 --> 00:11:33,528.46906803 And I think as a party, we knew that meant that gave us a sense of the motivation as well. 123 00:11:33,528.47006803 --> 00:11:38,148.47006803 This was someone who traveled north and had met two of the most senior significant figures. 124 00:11:38,198.46906803 --> 00:11:42,268.46906803 He'd either come to get something or to deliver something, some kind of communication. 125 00:11:42,378.46906803 --> 00:11:45,323.36906803 So that was probably the first. 126 00:11:45,893.46906803 --> 00:11:47,353.46906803 Brings us to the stone block. 127 00:11:47,523.46906803 --> 00:11:47,923.46906803 Yes. 128 00:11:47,953.46906803 --> 00:11:49,573.46906803 I wanted to lead towards the stone block. 129 00:11:49,603.46906803 --> 00:11:57,18.46906803 So We've got how may fish out water doesn't really get You know, he'd been in the army his entire life. 130 00:11:57,188.46906803 --> 00:11:59,938.46906803 And he had a very ordered view of like how things worked. 131 00:12:00,348.46906803 --> 00:12:02,738.46906803 He grew up in a kind of metropolitan city. 132 00:12:02,788.46906803 --> 00:12:06,878.46906803 He was reasonably worldly, but being in the north, he was fish out water. 133 00:12:06,908.46906803 --> 00:12:07,978.46906803 No idea what's going on. 134 00:12:08,138.46806803 --> 00:12:11,328.46806803 He was very reliant on the party to say. 135 00:12:11,538.46906803 --> 00:12:19,668.46906803 This is how you interact with dwarves, with bjornings, with woodmen, and also speaking to some kind NPCs. 136 00:12:19,748.46906803 --> 00:12:34,658.46906803 Now, we were able to speak to Bard, and we got an audience with him, and Halmyr impressed him on a hunt with his son, and Halmyr actually helped his son in some archery to to kill a, a stag. 137 00:12:35,588.46906803 --> 00:12:39,168.46806803 And that was enough for Bard, I think, to give a bit of information. 138 00:12:39,418.46906803 --> 00:12:50,998.56906803 that Baranor had visited and he brought, worrying tidings from the south and pleas for the steward of Gondor and Turgon and Bard to be in communication. 139 00:12:51,28.56906803 --> 00:12:54,428.56706803 So we knew that Baranor's quest was being driven at a really high level. 140 00:12:54,458.56806803 --> 00:12:59,188.56806803 It was the steward had basically given him a mission to go forth from. 141 00:12:59,188.56806803 --> 00:13:00,448.56806803 We knew it was some significance. 142 00:13:01,428.56806803 --> 00:13:05,708.56806803 I, as Halmyr, was like, oh we'll now obviously just go into Erebor and speak to Dain. 143 00:13:05,758.56806803 --> 00:13:07,888.56806803 Clearly that's just the next step of this quest. 144 00:13:08,388.56806803 --> 00:13:10,718.56806803 And you, Halmyr, thought that. 145 00:13:10,798.56806803 --> 00:13:13,858.56806803 I, as a player, knew that wasn't the thing we could do. 146 00:13:14,188.56706803 --> 00:13:16,48.56806803 But Halmyr was like, we'll just go. 147 00:13:16,88.56806803 --> 00:13:17,408.56906803 We'll get an audience with Dain. 148 00:13:17,538.56906803 --> 00:13:18,898.56806803 He'll tell us the answer. 149 00:13:19,18.56906803 --> 00:13:19,848.56906803 Tick the box. 150 00:13:19,908.56906803 --> 00:13:20,928.56906803 We'll catch up with Baronov. 151 00:13:21,758.56906803 --> 00:13:23,278.56906803 And you were all like, no, that's not. 152 00:13:24,533.56906803 --> 00:13:31,863.56906803 We can't just walk into Erebor like they're quite an isolationist society anyway, but you're not just going to get an audience with Dane. 153 00:13:32,283.56806803 --> 00:13:41,263.56806803 So we've been like, what can we do to impress? And I can't remember if there was an NPC or someone in the party, but someone was like the dwarves respect. 154 00:13:41,453.56906803 --> 00:13:50,343.56906803 Materials, quality stone, material things, art, artisan craft was like, if you could acquire some marble, it would be as a gift. 155 00:13:51,103.56906803 --> 00:14:01,603.56806803 You could gift a piece of marble to today would be a, in mechanics terms, a successful traditions check of recognizing what this person sees is important. 156 00:14:02,103.56806803 --> 00:14:08,368.46806803 I cannot remember where I acquired it from, but I spent all my money on an absolutely massive piece of marble. 157 00:14:08,588.56806803 --> 00:14:09,838.56806803 I think it was marble. 158 00:14:11,458.56806803 --> 00:14:16,578.56906803 And in my head, I was like I was like I'm going to pay for this. 159 00:14:16,608.56906803 --> 00:14:17,128.56906803 This is it. 160 00:14:17,138.56906803 --> 00:14:26,878.56806803 I'm going to find a way to get an audience with Dane and I will give it as a gift and hopefully we'll bond and he'll be able to give me a bit of that Baron or I will be able to pick up the trail. 161 00:14:26,978.56806803 --> 00:14:31,583.46906803 That's the next step for one reason or another. 162 00:14:31,583.66906803 --> 00:14:39,773.56906803 We got, I think it's because we went to the Library of Maserable, and we actually learned a lot of information. 163 00:14:39,783.56906803 --> 00:14:44,973.56906803 We found out that Baronal had actually snuck into the library to do some research. 164 00:14:45,343.56806803 --> 00:14:51,703.56906803 And I remember it being a really great session that you led us through Callum, because we knew Baronal had been in the library. 165 00:14:52,773.56906803 --> 00:14:56,493.56906803 And we thought he needs information from in here. 166 00:14:57,413.56906803 --> 00:15:03,733.56906803 If we can find the same information he was looking for, it will set us on, like, where he goes next. 167 00:15:04,183.56906803 --> 00:15:06,293.56906803 And we had loads of great investigation checks. 168 00:15:06,323.56906803 --> 00:15:11,343.56806803 Torwald, James Yu is a character who basically grew up in a, building and living in a library. 169 00:15:11,693.56906803 --> 00:15:19,483.56906803 We did a whole, do you remember that session where we researched and we were trying to figure out bits of lore? And Calum, you dropped in so much lore in that session. 170 00:15:20,33.56906803 --> 00:15:21,823.46906803 How did you, like, how did you prep for that? I don't know. 171 00:15:23,743.56906803 --> 00:15:24,963.56906803 Oh, that's a good question. 172 00:15:25,183.56906803 --> 00:15:26,523.56906803 That was a long time ago. 173 00:15:27,633.56906803 --> 00:15:35,183.56906803 Maybe it was that you just, you'd already prepped all of that lore, but like you were talking us through, we'd be looking through books and we rolled really high. 174 00:15:35,183.56906803 --> 00:15:43,3.56906803 And I think we'd maybe found some dusty books, some of which had recently been disturbed, which had helped us isolate particular books that you might've been looking at. 175 00:15:44,583.56906803 --> 00:16:03,363.56806803 You did throw in some kind of red herrings, but we learned we learned a lot about the, the kingdom of Ravanion, and the settlement of Velbovni, which was in the East Bight, so further down the East eastern eaves of Mirkwood. 176 00:16:03,363.66806803 --> 00:16:05,383.56806803 Sorry, Josh. 177 00:16:05,573.56806803 --> 00:16:22,128.56706803 One of the things we didn't Touch on last time, but it is something that's Hawking notes is that there is this big chunk carved out of Merkwood on if you look at the map of and he does say that was largely due to deforestation caused by. 178 00:16:22,453.56806803 --> 00:16:28,153.36806803 The Kingdom of Ravanion, which clearly means that they were building something, Yes. 179 00:16:29,133.46806803 --> 00:16:35,923.46906803 Yeah, they must have cut down a lot of roots to make that sizable chunk of, of of, of area taken out. 180 00:16:36,93.46906803 --> 00:16:41,63.468068 I think what I did was I prepped, I knew that he'd been in there and he must have found out details. 181 00:16:41,113.468068 --> 00:16:48,83.470068 And so basically I had make notes on what information you could find and then had DCs about what information you could get. 182 00:16:48,533.470068 --> 00:16:53,598.470068 And I guess A lot of these things need prep that you never know how quickly people are gonna find the clues. 183 00:16:53,688.470068 --> 00:16:55,608.470068 Ultimately, I needed you to go to the next bread. 184 00:16:56,368.470068 --> 00:16:56,608.470068 Yes. 185 00:16:56,968.470068 --> 00:17:10,93.470068 So basically I was like, we'd drop in a little bit and then if you guys would be like, oh, still, I'm not sure what, like what I meant to do, what's the plan? Doesn't sound like us dropping a bit more information and then just keep dropping in things and making it clearer in different ways and improving. 186 00:17:10,548.470068 --> 00:17:14,358.470068 How that was written in the books, I wouldn't have the books written down and prepped. 187 00:17:14,368.470068 --> 00:17:35,98.470068 It wouldn't be as set as that, but essentially what I was getting across was that, and I guess Bayonar had come north because there was something that they needed, something that had been in Gondor that had gone north with Eldekar and he'd been sent to retrieve, but he didn't know where it was, nor did anybody else. 188 00:17:35,803.470068 --> 00:17:41,403.470068 So he was up north to try and find out where this thing was, where it was held, and bring it back. 189 00:17:41,703.470068 --> 00:17:55,8.470068 Which is quite a vague Hook in a way, but also it gives you the thing, okay, where would you find out you go to these major NPCs alliances, And then in the records here, it's the dwarfs would have records, they've been around for ages. 190 00:17:55,18.469068 --> 00:18:01,338.370068 They would have records of the Revanian wouldn't they? They would at least know where their settlements might have been. 191 00:18:01,798.470068 --> 00:18:11,388.470068 And then the next breadcrumb was, okay Byronor went to the ruins of what was the capital city of the kingdom of Ravanion. 192 00:18:11,438.470068 --> 00:18:17,108.471068 Which we've lost to time, but I was like it's going to begin with a V, let's call it Vel'Bovni. 193 00:18:17,568.471068 --> 00:18:22,258.470068 I think, I can't remember exactly what, I think I did some reading about gothic names and used some name generator stuff. 194 00:18:22,358.570068 --> 00:18:35,643.571068 And that's where the next breadcrumb led us to because I was like there must be some archaeological records of these people and it's probably somewhere near the East Bight, which James says is, something that's attributed to that group of people, probably. 195 00:18:36,203.571068 --> 00:18:38,253.571068 Two things I wanted to say that I think work really well. 196 00:18:38,313.571068 --> 00:18:42,388.372068 Again, just re framing one of things. 197 00:18:43,668.472068 --> 00:18:53,948.472068 We've already said, which is just the fact that we were following Baron or meant, I think it gave us a sort of, even though it was vague, it gave us this confidence of there is something to find here. 198 00:18:54,88.472068 --> 00:19:19,278.570068 Yes, you know, which as players when there is an I had this, this problem, entire I had this problem recently while I was running this new campaign with frenzy and winchester and I did try to give them each a specific character based reason Why they were doing what they were doing in the first adventure, but they didn't have a reason as a group Yeah, yeah working together to do it, which is a lesson learned. 199 00:19:19,938.571068 --> 00:19:33,223.571068 But having that sense of, there is, there needs to be a reason why this group of characters is working together to do this thing and the presence of barren or even in his absence, so to speak gave us that focus. 200 00:19:33,453.571068 --> 00:19:33,753.571068 Yeah. 201 00:19:34,643.572068 --> 00:19:47,203.571068 The other thing is how these different groups in the world interact with each other was also very well deployed because, as you said, it makes complete sense that the dwarves would have records that go back that far. 202 00:19:48,283.572068 --> 00:19:50,823.572068 It also makes sense that those records would be very limited. 203 00:19:51,103.572068 --> 00:19:51,323.572068 Yeah. 204 00:19:51,603.572068 --> 00:20:00,513.571068 There wouldn't be a lot of information there, just the barest sense of, some trade route or some agreement that was made for something. 205 00:20:01,93.572068 --> 00:20:03,23.571568 Directed us in a particular way. 206 00:20:03,203.572568 --> 00:20:10,543.572568 There's not going to be Like, the dwarves were not going to have the minutes of the Bovnar council meetings. 207 00:20:10,963.572568 --> 00:20:11,423.572568 Yeah. 208 00:20:12,463.572568 --> 00:20:24,373.572568 I'm in character as Halmyr, all the notes I have from our campaign are written as notes that character would take in his journal, because of my headcanon, Halmyr is presuming his uncle. 209 00:20:24,628.572568 --> 00:20:27,988.572568 And he keeps notes of, his own progress to go along. 210 00:20:28,308.572568 --> 00:20:29,438.572568 So those are the notes I've taken. 211 00:20:29,438.572568 --> 00:20:33,868.572568 I know those are quite different from some people's session notes, which kind of cover everything that happens in the session. 212 00:20:34,878.572568 --> 00:20:41,268.572568 If, if Halmyr's not there, or it's not relevant to his pursuit of Baranor, I've not got notes, but I have very detailed notes for these things. 213 00:20:41,708.572568 --> 00:20:44,708.572568 So I've got the notes up about our time in the Chamber of Miserable. 214 00:20:45,308.572568 --> 00:20:52,483.572568 The books that you highlighted to us that we found, which were less dusty, were the history of the river running. 215 00:20:52,793.572568 --> 00:20:58,353.572568 So that's helpful to give us our first kind of data point on the graph. 216 00:20:58,773.572568 --> 00:21:00,973.572568 The other one was history of Ravanian. 217 00:21:00,973.672568 --> 00:21:15,195.3732347 Okay, so we know we've got the river, we've got Ravanian as And then the librarian, Domi, remembered Baron or after a bit of prompting and remember that he was particularly interested in ruins. 218 00:21:15,775.3732347 --> 00:21:19,405.3732347 And he kept asking questions about ruins and if there were records of ruins in that area. 219 00:21:19,745.3732347 --> 00:21:37,705.3732347 And with those three bits of information, we've got kingdom and Ravanian, the river running, which gives us a kind of a line to work along and ruins added in that Torvald then remembered a song so long Valbovni about faded Greatness and combining all those things. 220 00:21:37,705.3732347 --> 00:21:58,665.3742347 We were like, we know where the next point on our quest is and all of that is stuff to go back to the very premise of our episode of how do you put existing Tolkien lore into action with players? All of that is the history of Tolkien, which you then gave us as effectively clues in this mystery, and then it took us to the next place. 221 00:21:59,390.3742347 --> 00:22:03,340.3742347 Which was the Ruins of Thelbovni, which was a very different flavor of Scottish. 222 00:22:04,240.3742347 --> 00:22:04,440.3742347 Yes. 223 00:22:05,150.3742347 --> 00:22:12,870.3752347 So, yeah, I wanted to be like, okay, here's a ruins, what would happen to a long lost ruins? When we see ruins are often dangerous places. 224 00:22:13,670.3752347 --> 00:22:15,580.3752347 something that's been corrupted by Shadow. 225 00:22:16,80.3752347 --> 00:22:22,810.3752347 They probably lived near the East Bight, because that's where they seem to have had the most impact on the world. 226 00:22:23,220.3752347 --> 00:22:29,670.3757347 There was the Old Forest Road, which you guys have been very invested in there's a lot of trade around there, so that would make a sense as a location. 227 00:22:29,940.3757347 --> 00:22:34,220.3757347 Another thing is, The forest is changing, forests don't just stay the same borders. 228 00:22:34,710.3757347 --> 00:22:42,490.3767347 So I thought actually, it probably would have been outside the forest, but very much easily, the, these people all leave, die of plague and war. 229 00:22:42,890.3767347 --> 00:22:44,590.3757347 They were getting engulfed by the forest again. 230 00:22:44,690.3757347 --> 00:22:53,200.3767347 And I think on a really dangerous adventure, some ruins in Mirkwood forest, there's something that's going to be spiders, there's gonna be ruins. 231 00:22:53,210.3767347 --> 00:22:55,900.3757347 There might be like undead ghosts, et cetera. 232 00:22:55,960.3757347 --> 00:22:58,440.3757347 And also they all died in a great plague. 233 00:22:59,490.3767347 --> 00:23:40,275.3767347 So then I was like great plague, here's this monster from D& D, which is basically a plague troll, is there poison? Is there disease there? What can I do with this as a sort of adventure hook? And so came up as an opportunity, and the details of this don't really matter for the history of Ravania in a game, but, I found those as useful things to say, that plague and disease, could that be part of the challenge, a struggle? Constitution sex, is there poison? What is going on there? I I just want to say also that one thing you've very consistently done throughout our entire campaign Is make sure that every time we go into mirkwood it is properly terrified. 234 00:23:40,455.3767347 --> 00:23:47,90.3767347 Yes, absolutely Absolutely, even when we were like, what are we? Nine now eight nine. 235 00:23:47,610.3767347 --> 00:24:17,845.3757347 We haven't been leveling up very quickly no, but even when we most recently went in there and we've done a lot and we Brought our way through mount gunderbad And then we were just back and then we were back in vail of anduin We were just going on a short 15 minute adventure Cracking down and the other well, and we just had to do a little bit of passing through the narrows, which is the bit that, you know, that, is narrow because of the East bite. 236 00:24:18,675.3757347 --> 00:24:20,205.3747347 Bad times, bad time. 237 00:24:21,365.3747347 --> 00:24:23,695.3732347 But also obviously we know that Tolkien loved trees. 238 00:24:23,815.3732347 --> 00:24:24,885.3732347 That was one of his things. 239 00:24:25,525.3732347 --> 00:24:28,445.3732347 But the way that he characterizes trees is really interesting. 240 00:24:28,835.3732347 --> 00:24:42,565.3732347 And given what we know of the old forest and the way that the old forest behaves, it completely makes sense to me that the trees of Mirkwood, they might not want to go back into the East Bight because that's, where so many of them were cut down. 241 00:24:42,565.3732347 --> 00:24:52,20.3732347 Maybe there's like a trauma there, but they would potentially in that kind of natural intelligent kind of way, Be like, yeah, we're going to take over your city. 242 00:24:52,20.3732347 --> 00:24:53,40.3732347 We're going to grow here. 243 00:24:54,340.3732347 --> 00:25:16,190.4752347 Yeah, it was really ominous when we visited above me and it was this clearly you described like the ruins or even a lot of it was just the foundations and the outlines of buildings or where they would have been hummocks of earth and things and then the forest had It felt very ominous, but it had that thing, which fantasy, good fantasy literature does so well, which is a past. 244 00:25:16,450.4752347 --> 00:25:20,900.4742347 So when you see ruins and you see these things, you're like, oh, there's a whole other world. 245 00:25:20,930.4752347 --> 00:25:23,850.4752347 And story has gone before, which I don't know if. 246 00:25:24,330.4752347 --> 00:25:33,40.4752347 For you, James, at this point, you knew this was to do with the Kinstrife and Ravanion, but I, as Josh, did not know much about this at all. 247 00:25:33,60.4742347 --> 00:25:35,340.4752347 So this was this big question mark for me. 248 00:25:35,680.4752347 --> 00:25:40,830.4752347 All I knew is that Baranor had been here for a reason, and it was a big drive to find out more. 249 00:25:40,840.4742347 --> 00:25:47,80.4752347 I think it was only after we spoke to the NPC that we spoke to in the Ruins. 250 00:25:47,90.4752347 --> 00:25:47,330.4752347 Yes. 251 00:25:47,330.5752347 --> 00:25:49,560.4752347 Not the Patro the other one. 252 00:25:50,195.4752347 --> 00:25:54,15.4752347 The spirit that was it was after that, that I. 253 00:25:54,595.4752347 --> 00:25:58,645.4752347 You know with my talking brain started putting two and two together. 254 00:25:59,45.4752347 --> 00:26:01,765.4752347 So i've got my really detailed notes from these sessions. 255 00:26:01,785.4752347 --> 00:26:07,335.4752347 We once we defeated the troll there was a lot of Investigating we knew there was a tomb somewhere here. 256 00:26:07,345.4752347 --> 00:26:25,300.4752347 We just didn't know how to get into it so there was a good bit of Lore mastering in terms of there was a challenge to try and find our way into the tomb which made sense because the tomb Apart from baron or recently had lain undisturbed for a very long time So it wasn't It wasn't just like a door that we were like, Oh, here we go. 257 00:26:25,300.4752347 --> 00:26:29,330.4752347 We'll take the well trodden tourist path up to the mausoleum here. 258 00:26:29,920.4752347 --> 00:26:42,490.5752347 And we found a way in and I presume the design of the tomb, Callum, for you is quite a blank canvas for this because I actually have a description of it and it's that looking back and what we've talked about is packed with lore. 259 00:26:42,800.5752347 --> 00:26:44,720.5752347 But at the time I didn't see that. 260 00:26:44,730.5752347 --> 00:26:51,820.5752347 So what we've got is inside the tomb there were statues carved into alcoves in an unusual style which Halmyr didn't recognize. 261 00:26:52,450.5752347 --> 00:27:01,690.5752347 It seemed reminiscent of Gondor, but Karhu, a Bjorning, who'd been in the campaign a long time, said it was also like the city of the Eofid in its style. 262 00:27:01,730.5762347 --> 00:27:04,910.5767347 So there you go, already you've linked in the Raheric history there. 263 00:27:05,890.5767347 --> 00:27:13,110.5767347 We found footprints, we reckon the dust had been there for hundreds if not thousands of years, but footprints were very recent. 264 00:27:13,990.5767347 --> 00:27:22,900.5757347 There were small specks of blood, and Torild, you saw freezes around the base of the plinth, which had horses. 265 00:27:22,900.5757347 --> 00:27:30,70.5767347 The plinth had running horses, and there were names of horses all the way around the outside, of which I've actually listed all of them. 266 00:27:30,110.5767347 --> 00:27:32,400.5767347 So Calum had done the lore work there. 267 00:27:33,780.5767347 --> 00:27:37,190.5767347 We then found statues set into the walls. 268 00:27:37,500.5767347 --> 00:27:39,0.5767347 You described those. 269 00:27:39,70.5767347 --> 00:27:42,320.5757347 They had similar expressions, but different body positions. 270 00:27:42,370.5767347 --> 00:27:45,70.5767347 It looked to be like four aspects of the same person. 271 00:27:45,460.5767347 --> 00:27:48,630.5767347 So there was a lot of mystery that you introduced here, which now. 272 00:27:49,155.6767347 --> 00:27:53,175.5767347 that I know the history, and I can see what we were talking about. 273 00:27:53,175.5767347 --> 00:27:57,365.5767347 It makes sense, but it was all just like question marks and alarms going through my head. 274 00:27:58,35.5767347 --> 00:28:08,735.5757347 And that's when the spirit of the person buried here emerged, and we had this spectral encounter, which was really really hard for Halmyr. 275 00:28:08,785.5757347 --> 00:28:10,45.5757347 Halmyr had a rough time. 276 00:28:10,535.5757347 --> 00:28:11,195.5757347 Had a very rough time. 277 00:28:11,195.5757347 --> 00:28:18,635.5757347 He asked the question in terms of who are you and what you, what brings you to the tomb? And I think I probably couldn't have had a worse answer to it. 278 00:28:19,205.5757347 --> 00:28:25,630.5757347 I think I approached it in a very, like Hal Mayor being a kinda lawful good, like he's a, he's a servant of the steward. 279 00:28:25,700.5757347 --> 00:28:30,160.5757347 At this point he knew that Baros Quest was, had been given by the steward. 280 00:28:30,520.5757347 --> 00:28:40,695.5757347 He was a member of the military, so I think he was asked, who are you and what brings you to the tomb? I can't remember my wording, but it was basically, I am, a sworn soldier of the steward of Gondor. 281 00:28:40,985.5757347 --> 00:28:41,835.5757347 That's why I'm here. 282 00:28:42,395.5757347 --> 00:28:55,195.6757347 And this is when you introduced the conflict of the kinstrife, because this spirit did not recognize the idea that Gondor was ruled this way, or who I, why I was there, what I was there to do. 283 00:28:55,525.6757347 --> 00:28:59,252.3757347 And I think I got, Possessed? Or, yeah. 284 00:28:59,252.3757347 --> 00:29:04,685.6757347 Or, I was like, one of those things was like, you need to get to the next stage, you need to get the information. 285 00:29:05,275.6757347 --> 00:29:13,710.6757347 And I was, I planned the adventure, actually, as You would have a, check, you would succeed, you would have a conversation, you would get the information, you would move on. 286 00:29:14,310.6757347 --> 00:29:16,180.6757347 But I didn't know exactly how that would go down. 287 00:29:16,230.6757347 --> 00:29:19,40.6757347 And then when the interaction just didn't go like I expected. 288 00:29:19,100.6747347 --> 00:29:21,680.6752347 And I was like, it was much more they wouldn't recognize this. 289 00:29:21,680.6752347 --> 00:29:41,250.6757347 And how do they know to trust you? And I was like, working with Bert, one of the other players, had come up with a little bit of a backstory about A secret society that linked the people of Vanyan, the North, the Eiffel, the Rohan, the Rohirrim now, and Gondor, and, some things that you might say. 290 00:29:41,580.6757347 --> 00:29:46,550.6747347 So essentially, this was something where it was like, there was a right answer, and you just didn't know what it was. 291 00:29:47,470.6757347 --> 00:29:52,130.6762347 And then I was like actually You need the information, but I could give that another way. 292 00:29:52,130.6762347 --> 00:29:54,170.6762347 So I think I was like the spirit could possess you. 293 00:29:54,170.6762347 --> 00:29:54,610.6762347 Basically. 294 00:29:54,610.6762347 --> 00:30:00,610.6762347 It was like this being has got unfinished business and unfinished business and tokens war is really bad. 295 00:30:01,200.6762347 --> 00:30:06,500.6762347 That's why people's spirits don't move out because they, there's something that needs to be done. 296 00:30:07,160.6752347 --> 00:30:13,990.6762347 And so it's like, why are they still here? There was some mission or quest that was enshrined to them. 297 00:30:14,440.6762347 --> 00:30:22,720.6762347 And so I was like how can I get this information over in a sort of adversarial way? You got possessed and I was giving you information directly. 298 00:30:22,880.6762347 --> 00:30:30,850.6752347 Like you played the spirit and you, I gave you the information about what their motivations were and you were attacking the party and trying to defend it. 299 00:30:30,860.6762347 --> 00:30:35,940.6757347 And eventually all the other players managed to talk you down and then have a conversation about where you're going. 300 00:30:36,40.6757347 --> 00:30:36,520.6757347 Yes. 301 00:30:36,600.6757347 --> 00:30:39,620.6747347 And what we learned, first of all, we learned that Baranor had. 302 00:30:39,905.6757347 --> 00:30:47,285.6757347 Achieve for how my couldn't because he had used the family heirloom sword kill for us to fend off. 303 00:30:47,665.6757347 --> 00:30:55,915.6757347 Who's the possessed the who's the spirit and I think it was that ancient blade, the provenance of which we. 304 00:30:56,270.6757347 --> 00:31:11,10.6757347 Kind of new is derived from the elves, but was very old was enough to identify a barren or to the spirit as being like, Oh, you're not just some near do late comer to the situation. 305 00:31:11,20.6757347 --> 00:31:13,440.6747347 You've you understand the history here. 306 00:31:13,440.6747347 --> 00:31:16,30.6757347 You carry this thing of great historical importance. 307 00:31:16,710.6757347 --> 00:31:23,340.6757347 And what we basically learned was during the kin strife that were key artifacts that the king was worried about that would get taken. 308 00:31:23,570.6757347 --> 00:31:26,640.6757347 And, potentially returned to, not returned, Gondor. 309 00:31:27,440.6757347 --> 00:31:35,380.6757347 And to avoid that happening the king had sent those artifacts further north to be kept hidden. 310 00:31:36,560.6757347 --> 00:31:42,540.6767347 That was our next breadcrumb was that these artifacts, which we, by this point, we're like this is what Baron was looking for these artifacts. 311 00:31:42,580.6757347 --> 00:31:47,410.6757347 We don't know where they are, but he's searching for these and we know they went north. 312 00:31:48,720.6757347 --> 00:31:51,610.6757347 And that was a really exciting moment because. 313 00:31:52,345.6757347 --> 00:32:14,345.6757347 What you basically have given to us was, Barinor has been here, he's looking for artifacts linked to the kingdom of Ravanion, the city of Erthed the Northmen, the Kinstrife, and these artifacts historically were taken north, which meant Barinor presumably headed even further north, and we had spent a lot of time in the north. 314 00:32:14,935.6757347 --> 00:32:19,465.5757347 And that's where we're going to be heading next. 315 00:32:19,615.5757347 --> 00:32:21,225.5757347 And there was a really special moment. 316 00:32:21,225.5757347 --> 00:32:26,505.5757347 I can't remember whose realization it was, but there was a realization in the party about where we were going. 317 00:32:27,605.5747347 --> 00:32:29,675.5747347 Because, and this was really cool. 318 00:32:30,705.5757347 --> 00:32:54,720.5747347 It tied in with, our early adventure to the city of the Ithiate where we had, after some lively debate between Told and Thudrik ventured into the crypt there and which is where we discovered the sealing map of the North, which included, I believe the secret watchtower. 319 00:32:54,940.5747347 --> 00:32:55,280.5747347 Yes. 320 00:32:55,950.5747347 --> 00:33:05,780.5747347 And so again, if I am taking lessons from this, it's the integration of law and history of the world with the history of the campaign. 321 00:33:06,50.5757347 --> 00:33:06,320.5757347 Yes. 322 00:33:06,780.5747347 --> 00:33:14,170.5757347 It's a great example of building a mystery where the answer or one of the answers at least was. 323 00:33:14,840.5757347 --> 00:33:20,180.5757347 Something we found out in a completely unrelated situation on a completely unrelated quest. 324 00:33:20,220.5757347 --> 00:33:23,330.5757347 Yeah Like dozens and dozens and dozens of sessions ago. 325 00:33:23,570.5757347 --> 00:33:43,700.6757347 That was an awesome moment for me as a role master and to be honest What I think that the books are really good for is that they are like here's this area Here's just like a crap load of stuff that you could use in it You don't have to use it all or you might want to use it all and there's loads of stuff in the book that I never used but what I did try to do was You get a lot of rumors. 326 00:33:43,740.6757347 --> 00:33:45,100.6757347 There's a lot of mechanics around that. 327 00:33:45,100.6757347 --> 00:33:51,450.6757347 So to leave little like bits of like unturned little pieces of paper, like little clues. 328 00:33:51,460.6757347 --> 00:33:58,610.7252347 So that map, I was like in the Rovanian region guide, there's an amazing watchtower and there's a load of lore about it. 329 00:33:58,610.7252347 --> 00:34:03,310.6757347 It was, it was left when the last alliance marched East to watch over Gundabad. 330 00:34:03,690.6757347 --> 00:34:07,80.6757347 It was this part of the history of the region. 331 00:34:07,90.6757347 --> 00:34:10,610.6757347 And I really want to use this at some point, but I don't have a use for it right now. 332 00:34:11,310.6757347 --> 00:34:14,870.6757347 So what I'll do is I'll just draw this map, and I'll put the map, and I'll put that in it. 333 00:34:15,610.6757347 --> 00:34:21,30.6757347 And I did that at the time thinking, I don't know what this is for, but I might use it in the future. 334 00:34:21,70.6757347 --> 00:34:23,450.6747347 And that's an amazing way to give players stuff. 335 00:34:23,450.6757347 --> 00:34:29,30.6747347 Because you can just be like, I'm going to build the world out without really knowing why. 336 00:34:29,240.6757347 --> 00:34:32,710.6757347 And then later on retcon it and be like, that was the plan all along. 337 00:34:33,110.6757347 --> 00:34:35,280.6757347 I promise against her, Josh's character. 338 00:34:35,685.6757347 --> 00:34:49,335.6742347 You hadn't yet made and hadn't made a backstory for any of that at that point in the game, but obviously that links in and like sometimes the things just click together because I guess it's what was it like you, you leave a thread unfinished. 339 00:34:49,465.6742347 --> 00:34:53,785.6742347 When it does connect up eventually it can be really satisfying. 340 00:34:54,245.6742347 --> 00:34:56,345.6732347 So that was a really interesting moment for me. 341 00:34:56,345.6742347 --> 00:35:29,573.9281759 Summarizing up that little bit there about Vel'Bovni and the Rivanian part, the other things in the city I did was, there's this language that Tolkien came up with, which is called Talisca, which James probably knows more about than me, but my understanding is it was loosely based off Gothic Germanic languages and was meant to be the sort of language that the, pre men in Lord of the Rings spoke, I wonder if maybe, I'm going to use Talisca as an inspiration and there's some words put in, sounds like there's going to be inscriptions, how information can get across. 342 00:35:29,603.9271759 --> 00:35:40,63.8291759 So those are the sort of things that you could, you could tie in, this sort of Gothic theme, Talisca, read about it on Talking Gateway, it's really interesting and the links of Gondor. 343 00:35:40,423.8291759 --> 00:35:41,703.8291759 I wonder if maybe. 344 00:35:42,143.8291759 --> 00:35:51,233.8291759 We should draw things to close there and then do another episode where we talk about, what artifacts you could leave the tower and then segues into a good and a bad episode, Josh. 345 00:35:52,93.8291759 --> 00:36:02,333.8281759 I think so, because what happened next on this quest, there were other like how my story was, was not the only one that was going on. 346 00:36:02,413.8281759 --> 00:36:08,23.8291759 So we would often do segments of how mirrors quest and it would be like, Oh, we're now heading in this direction along the way. 347 00:36:08,23.8291759 --> 00:36:10,83.8291759 And then the other characters would have quests, but. 348 00:36:11,73.8291759 --> 00:36:19,953.8291759 The next part, the kind of going to that watchtower when we picked that up was a quest which has such huge momentum and time pressure. 349 00:36:20,123.8291759 --> 00:36:25,513.8291759 And I think it would be fun to probably start with the moment we decided oh, we are now going to do this thing. 350 00:36:26,83.8291759 --> 00:36:34,213.8291759 Yeah, such a fascinating moment, especially because it meant leaving behind one of our, yes, what you've occasionally called the main character. 351 00:36:35,103.8291759 --> 00:36:38,693.8291759 I do often think of as the main character in my head. 352 00:36:39,303.8281759 --> 00:36:43,93.8291759 That meant that the main story did not follow us to the tower. 353 00:36:43,343.8291759 --> 00:36:51,113.8291759 And therefore that what happened with the tower and Baron and everything is like somehow some kind of side film or side series in my head. 354 00:36:52,503.8291759 --> 00:36:54,413.8291759 I shouldn't think into that. 355 00:36:54,998.8291759 --> 00:36:56,408.8291759 Madness Josh, for the record. 356 00:36:56,418.8291759 --> 00:37:10,468.8296759 Very much classic, at least amongst our player group style we had a good idea that it was probably the tower, but Callum also had to lay down like two or three more pointers so that we could, we would actually go and take the back. 357 00:37:10,748.8296759 --> 00:37:13,468.8296759 Yes, I really wanted to go to that tower. 358 00:37:13,468.8296759 --> 00:37:16,158.8286759 And you were very close to not doing it. 359 00:37:16,158.8296759 --> 00:37:18,138.8296759 And I was like, I don't want to railroad. 360 00:37:18,333.8296759 --> 00:37:20,43.8296759 But just go here, because it's awesome. 361 00:37:20,73.8296759 --> 00:37:21,453.8296759 And I've spent a lot of time prepping it. 362 00:37:21,683.8296759 --> 00:37:22,843.8296759 Please just go to the tower. 363 00:37:23,533.8296759 --> 00:37:29,473.8286759 Which is fine, because I guess, that's the that's the prerogative of the Loremaster, isn't it? Rewarding the players for what you want them to do. 364 00:37:29,543.8296759 --> 00:37:36,723.8306759 I guess sometimes in Lord of the Rings, you're so embedded in the characters at this point, it became a little bit like, you were making very sensible decisions. 365 00:37:36,813.8306759 --> 00:37:36,993.8306759 Yes. 366 00:37:37,773.8306759 --> 00:37:39,163.8306759 No, just click, just click. 367 00:37:39,718.8306759 --> 00:37:52,288.7296759 In character, we like, we knew he was heading there, but we didn't know if he was, had gotten there, which is, as players, we might be like of course, he'll be there because that'd be interesting place to be. 368 00:37:52,648.7286759 --> 00:37:57,68.7286759 But as I know, it's one of those interesting kinds of like challenges of. 369 00:37:57,443.7296759 --> 00:38:07,753.7286759 Do you, as players, do the interesting thing because it's interesting as players versus, what do the characters, what makes the characters to do? So I think you're right. 370 00:38:07,763.7286759 --> 00:38:12,873.7286759 Let's tackle the tower and what happened after that as a separate episode, because that's a very specific bit of plot. 371 00:38:12,913.7296759 --> 00:38:17,463.7296759 I think the Vel'Bovni episode and what happened in the Library of Mazarbul. 372 00:38:17,678.7296759 --> 00:38:45,968.7296759 With this quest, the kind of detective work, I think, is a great example of using the sort of richness of Tolkien's lore, and Using that as a basis for quests those things are not in the, the player's guide or the lore master's guide, but they gave you such sort of rich material to work with, and it, it meant from my perspective, when I was the kind of the main character doing my bits of the quest, it was amazing. 373 00:38:45,988.7296759 --> 00:38:47,403.7296759 It felt so immersive. 374 00:38:47,403.7296759 --> 00:38:49,698.7296759 So I loved it. 375 00:38:49,788.7296759 --> 00:38:50,878.7296759 It felt like. 376 00:38:51,663.7296759 --> 00:39:01,63.7286759 It could have felt like doing a detective thing of trying to find someone that you just gave us individual pieces of evidence, but that there was no other evidence like we you listed. 377 00:39:01,63.7296759 --> 00:39:02,263.7296759 We just we only picked up. 378 00:39:02,543.7296759 --> 00:39:06,613.7286759 Whereas this felt like there was too much information for me to access. 379 00:39:06,943.7296759 --> 00:39:10,433.7286759 And I had to choose the bits that were important, like almost that. 380 00:39:10,973.7296759 --> 00:39:15,223.7296759 The lore meant there was superfluous stuff, and I was trying to navigate through that, which was cool. 381 00:39:15,543.7296759 --> 00:39:19,703.7286759 Yeah, that's what people need about like, when you've got a player with a really high perception and investigation. 382 00:39:20,313.7296759 --> 00:39:28,633.7296759 What is it people can see stuff, so giving superfluous information I guess that's the skill of the character, is to know what is important and what isn't. 383 00:39:29,483.7296759 --> 00:39:32,773.7296759 So you can almost present people with a lot of information, and, You read a book. 384 00:39:32,833.7296759 --> 00:39:34,903.6296759 It's not like you need a skill check to read a book. 385 00:39:34,903.7296759 --> 00:39:36,193.7296759 You can read the book. 386 00:39:36,723.7296759 --> 00:39:47,123.7296759 The skill check is to say, to read the book, and be like, what is the important detail within this lore? And that's what's great as a lore master, is you just say Alright, I don't need to make up this lore, because that would take me ages. 387 00:39:47,143.7296759 --> 00:39:48,733.7296759 I just have the lore. 388 00:39:48,908.7296759 --> 00:39:56,388.7296759 And then, it's maybe like up to chance how much lore is still present and known in the place that you're at, the NPC, et cetera. 389 00:39:56,738.7296759 --> 00:39:58,498.7296759 And then you as a player have to interpret that. 390 00:39:58,518.7296759 --> 00:40:04,398.7281759 And that, that is, how you can use this in your game is drop it in snippets, little bits of information. 391 00:40:06,28.7291759 --> 00:40:50,793.7281759 One of my top GM tips would have to be Yeah, when players when you're trying to create a mystery or mystery, which is difficult to do successfully, but one of the ways to do it is, as Callum was saying, give your players too much information, some of which may not be entirely accurate I love it then we'll pick up next time and maybe we'll talk a little bit there about and the venture to the tower And how that segwayed into going to Gundabad and what? And you might want to leave because I guess for me it was like I knew that baron had gone north And I knew that he was trying to get something At the beginning of us like writing. 392 00:40:50,833.7291759 --> 00:40:56,143.7281759 I didn't know what he was going for to be honest and it came up later you don't actually in game. 393 00:40:56,203.7291759 --> 00:40:58,133.7281759 I don't think actually know what it is yet. 394 00:40:58,303.7281759 --> 00:41:09,603.7291759 Other than you found something we found a way to Yeah, the breadcrumb trail continues You found a way to find more things, I believe. 395 00:41:10,323.7291759 --> 00:41:21,747.5041759 And what I believe we're talking about doing at the moment is having a some kind of Either a single campaign or mini campaign that follows up on this specific threat. 396 00:41:21,837.5041759 --> 00:41:22,97.5041759 Yes. 397 00:41:23,627.5041759 --> 00:41:24,117.5041759 Great. 398 00:41:24,697.5041759 --> 00:41:27,447.5031759 Thank you, James, for joining us again. 399 00:41:27,467.5041759 --> 00:41:30,167.5031759 Thank you, Josh, for existing. 400 00:41:31,707.5031759 --> 00:41:32,287.5041759 Always a pleasure. 401 00:41:35,67.5031759 --> 00:41:37,917.5041759 And thank you for listening and we'll join you next time. 402 00:41:37,917.5041759 --> 00:41:40,577.5041759 Or they'll join yoU. 403 00:41:59,968.5041759 --> 00:42:10,97.5041759 No emails, except on party business, and comments, suggestions, and questions to thefellowshipphase at gmail. 404 00:42:10,147.5041759 --> 00:42:10,367.5041759 com. 405 00:42:14,707.5041759 --> 00:42:16,997.5041759 The long year turns to its close. 406 00:42:17,887.5041759 --> 00:42:19,917.5041759 Much we have accomplished these last seasons. 407 00:42:20,527.5041759 --> 00:42:30,77.5041759 Our fellowship disbands, but is not broken, and we will return on the next episode of The Fellowship Phase.