March 6, 2024 • 63 mins
This week on the H&M Trucking Podcast, Marcus and Denny will break down all the recent news surrounding hydrogen powered trucks. The press releases would have you thinking that all is well in paradise, but a deeper dive will uncover a lack of infrastructure, skyrocketing maintenance and fuel costs, and dire financial straits for some of the leading companies in the sector. After that riveting conversation, we sit down for Story Time with Denny.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
What's up everybody and welcome to the H and M Trucking Podcast episode 49.
I am your host,
Marcus Bridges.
Thank you so much for being here today.
Again.
I say this all the time.
You guys that are out there,
click and download,
click and subscribe are doing us a huge favor.
So if you haven't yet make sure to subscribe to the show on whatever podcast platform you use or on youtube.
(00:26):
Every time we put out something new,
it will notify you,
it's free and uh you know,
it just makes me feel good inside and,
and that's all I can ask for from you after you're out there going through the motions doing this tough job that requires you to drive all over this great country.
Uh I get to sit here in my chair and talk to you about trucking things.
(00:47):
So,
anything that you do that makes my job easier.
I just see as a huge favor and uh really appreciate it as well as the team.
We're all uh tipping our caps to you for clicking,
subscribe and clicking down load.
So thanks for being out there and checking out the H and M Trucking podcast.
Uh Before we get into what we've got going on today,
I want to welcome a couple new drivers to the team.
(01:10):
Darius Wiggins is out there cruising in a van OTR.
Welcome Darius and I didn't make,
I didn't wanna make that seem like he's actually driving around in like a Chevy Astro van.
He is hauling a dry van trailer.
Uh He's not just cruising in a creepy minivan.
So thanks Darius,
welcome to the show.
(01:31):
Uh The big show as we call it here at H and M Trucking.
Not this show,
just H and M trucking is the big show.
We love to.
We welcome the new drivers all the time.
If you,
new drivers are out there checking out the podcast going,
hey,
I wanna hear my voice come over the airwaves,
get in touch with Sherry Vogler or Eve Eery or really any of the employees there,
your driver manager,
(01:52):
your dispatcher,
if you let them know that you wanna be on this podcast,
they will get the news to me and we will make it happen.
So,
what's going on today?
Well,
we figured it's a good time to do an episode on hydrogen fuel.
You know,
uh here in the weeks past,
actually,
probably in the months past,
it's been a little while,
(02:12):
but we've talked about electric trucks,
we've talked about autonomous trucks and A I and how that's going to affect trucking going forward and it only makes sense that we do an episode concerning hydrogen refueling because uh,
trucks that run out of hydrogen can obviously burn a lot cleaner.
And from what I've heard,
I'm no scientist,
(02:32):
but this is supposed to be a much more renewable resource.
So let's see what we can find out.
I'm gonna dig in here a little bit right off the top before we get to being joined by Denny Stone and some other uh surprises that I have for you later on.
I just want to read this article to you.
Uh This comes from Clean trucking.com.
Now,
(02:53):
as I always say,
consider the source,
OK?
It comes from a website called Clean trucking.com.
So generally,
I would expect this to be a little bit more of a positive skew.
I'm not saying that it's wrong.
I'm not saying it's factually incorrect at all.
What I am saying is that uh Clean trucking.com is probably all about hydrogen fuel.
(03:14):
So they're gonna tell us the high points and the things that are going right.
Let's see what it has to say here.
Uh The article starts Nicola Corporation announced Monday via its Hyla brand.
That's Hyl A.
It has opened its first Hyla hydrogen refueling station in southern California featuring advanced modular fueler.
(03:34):
The station at 2445 East Guasti road in Ontario,
California represents the latest phase in Nicola's commitment to providing hydrogen refueling solutions for class eight trucks.
Nicola says the Ontario station will be capable of fueling up to 40 Niccola hydrogen fuel cell electric class eight trucks daily.
(03:57):
This station is part of a strategic plan to establish up to 60 hydrogen refueling solutions in the coming years with nine planned to be in place by the close of quarter 2 2024 which is not that far away.
That's in the summer.
Niccola will provide 24 7 support with on-site Hala ambassadors and operation techs ensuring a seamless and efficient fueling experience for customers.
(04:23):
According to the company,
uh here's a quote.
We are thrilled to open the first Hyla hydrogen refueling station in southern California.
Marking a significant milestone for Nicola and offering convenient access for our customers.
Says President of Energy Hoffman,
easing the transition to a zero emission trucking future and prioritizing access to a hydrogen solution network is our top objective and we're just getting started once the nine planned solutions are in place.
(04:54):
By mid 2024 Niccola will have established one of the world's largest heavy duty hydrogen refueling networks,
providing customers accessibility at their current locations and along their planned routes and quote.
Working alongside industry leaders,
Niccola states that it is securing a robust hydrogen supply chain for refueling infrastructure to support its in its growing customer base.
(05:20):
The continued development of the refueling ecosystem is anticipated to further facilitate the adoption of hydrogen fuel cell electric trucks and contribute to the dear organization of transportation.
Finally,
it says the Hila Refueling Solutions Network will offer Nicola hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles and other class eight customers,
(05:41):
flexible refueling options including modular and permanent hyla stations,
customer owned facilities and partnerships with public truck stops.
The company adds,
so there you have it.
Clean trucking.com obviously got in touch with Nicola here and said,
what's up?
What do you got going on?
And Nicola gave them,
they,
you know,
the,
(06:02):
the grass is greener on the hydrogen side report of what's going on their business.
They're trying to make money,
they're trying to expand.
I totally understand.
But now I want to turn your attention to an article written by our friend Alan Adler over at freight waves.com.
Now,
Alan's been on the show before and he is a great resource for this type of thing.
But Alan's article is titled No Signs of Panic as Nicola gets second,
(06:27):
NASDAQ delisting warning.
This came out in the end of January.
It says that the company has at least 180 days to regain compliance as its share price.
Languishes,
Nicola Corp's languishing share price prompted the NASDAQ to threaten the electric truck maker with delisting its stock for a second time in eight months,
(06:48):
but don't look for the company to panic.
Allen says the quickest way to remove the threat is a reverse stock split in which company issues one new share for a multiple of outstanding shares,
usually one for 20 or more,
but without the positive news driving such an action,
NASDAQ scrutiny would continue and I'm gonna read you a quick quote here from Nicola Ceo Steve Gery,
(07:13):
uh,
quote.
It doesn't really change anything except it creates a higher share price.
This is something he said in December with an interview with freight waves,
a reverse split hasn't come up at the board.
It doesn't mean it won't come up when we look at the top five things we're working on.
That's not one of them.
Look,
that means that,
uh,
(07:33):
they've been given a warning by the NASDAQ that,
hey,
you're almost not a publicly traded company anymore.
Getting delisted means you go back to being a private company if I'm not mistaken.
So maybe there's a little bit more to this,
but it seems that based on when these articles came out,
like I said,
Allen's article on Freight waves.com came out on,
uh January 20th and that article that I read you off the top from Clean trucking.com came out February 5th.
(08:00):
It makes sense that maybe there was a little bit of bad news out there in the water where NASDAQ was threatening to delist.
Nicola.
So Nicola wanted to get out in front of that or actually just slightly behind it and say,
listen,
we're opening our hydrogen fueling uh refueling station,
which is great except for there's like barely any hydrogen trucks running out there right now.
(08:21):
And most of them are only running in California at the time being.
So we're gonna get into this a lot more.
I've got Denny Stone joining me around the corner.
We're gonna chat this up and figure out,
uh,
what exactly we think about these new hydrogen refueling stations and hydrogen powered electric trucks,
class eights as they are defined uh,
(08:42):
in these articles.
So without further ado,
we're gonna go ahead and get into it.
Uh,
Danny Stone joins me next right here on the H and M Trucking Podcast from Omaha Nebraska to whatever lane you're driving.
This is the H and M Trucking podcast,
your host,
Marcus Bridges,
(09:08):
H and M Trucking podcast.
As always,
we've got retired H and M driver,
Danny Stone.
Denny,
as always,
man.
Thank you so much for being here.
Oh,
you're welcome.
Thanks for having me.
We're talking about hydrogen fueled trucks today and,
uh off the top there,
I read,
uh,
what I will call a press release at best,
(09:29):
uh from Nicola now,
just because it didn't come out and we didn't have the,
uh,
the Nicola site.
It was actually shared on Clean trucking.com.
Uh I did do a little research and yeah,
this is just a press release that we just read.
So that's kind of the,
the shiny side of what's going on with Nicola right now,
but I was reading a few articles over at Freight waves.com.
(09:52):
I sent them to you as well.
Uh Our good buddy Alan Adler has been doing some great coverage of this whole hydrogen onset.
And well,
it stands to reason that Nicola,
the company is very excited about what they've got in the works.
There are a few things that pop up in Allen's articles that,
uh,
give me pause and I guess I just wanna start out talking about some of the hurdles that,
(10:18):
uh,
that hydrogen is,
is facing right now and,
and a lot of this comes from Alan's article that's titled Hydrogen's Newsy Week Skips over Underlying Challenges.
And the title right there will tell you that.
Yeah,
there was a lot of good news that came out about hydrogen and then there was one big long article that Allen wrote about all of the things that might present problems and I've just kind of listed them out here.
(10:41):
I want to get your thoughts,
Denny.
Um,
before we jump into,
to my list of things,
what are just some of your general thoughts after reading through those articles and kind of familiarizing yourself with the,
uh,
the,
I guess the news cycle of hydrogen trucks right now.
Well,
I don't know if,
if the infrastructure catches up with it then maybe it could be a good thing.
(11:05):
But for instance,
I remember driving through California and Oregon and I would see these nice,
you know,
these were the electric recharging stations is what I'm referring to and they'd have a nice hedge or a beautiful fence or something behind them in a whole bunch of charging stations behind that is a diesel powered generator.
(11:28):
And one of the things I read is for this Ontario operation,
for the refueling station,
they're bringing it in with diesel powered trucks.
So,
you know,
are we really doing any good?
Is it,
is it,
I don't know,
it seemed like maybe it would be fine for a local routes to,
I'm gonna say UPS if UPS wanted to fuel their delivery trucks with hydrogen,
(11:53):
then yeah,
they're gonna go out,
put in so many miles or hours or however it's measured and then they're gonna come back to base where they could have the station.
But for OTR drivers that are driving from,
you know,
North Carolina to California,
I don't think it's practical.
I'm not sure it ever will be unless they get this stuff in every truck stop.
And that's,
(12:14):
it's doubtful if it happens and if it does,
it's gonna take quite a bit of time.
Another thing I'm worried about is the,
the glowing picture they,
you know,
quote so many miles that you can go on this.
Let me see.
Uh,
I,
I took some notes here.
They say about 400 miles depending on the destination.
All right.
Well,
say you leave Los Angeles,
(12:34):
you,
first of all got city gridlock traffic,
you're stop and go and stop and go and stop and go and every time you have to get that truck going again,
you're using more fuel than just cruising down the highway.
Then you gotta climb the grapevine.
Then you got to come down the grapevine,
which both of which are gonna take more fuel than your average flat driving mile.
So I'm assuming they're not calculating all this into their 400 mile estimation.
(13:00):
So,
these are my concerns.
I reached out to a few of my trucker friends and I guess the best one that sums it up to me,
that made me chuckle was my buddy Tim from North Carolina.
He said,
I don't want to drive around with a bomb strapped to my butt is something that's crossed my mind a few times.
Uh Hydrogen is quite volatile and yeah,
(13:22):
I,
I would think AAA poorly placed impact could make a really big explosion.
I mean,
we,
you know,
you don't hear the term hydrogen much without the word bomb attached to it.
So I,
I am a little bit nervous about that too and,
and it sounds like your buddy Tim.
Uh that might be something that's in the forefront of his mind as a driver.
(13:45):
Maybe the first thing he thinks of before any of the rest of this stuff we're gonna talk about.
That's,
that's one of the first things.
Um,
like I say,
if they get the bugs worked out maybe,
but at this point,
I don't think they're anywhere near ready and it sounds like they're starting to crank out trucks with this,
this capability now.
Or this engine,
(14:05):
whatever it is.
Right.
It does.
It seem,
it sounds like they have about 1000 trucks out there right now that are,
that are capable of doing this.
And,
you know,
we talked about back when we talked about electric trucks and automated trucks.
One of the biggest issues was you got the cart before the horse here,
we got all these trucks out on the road that you're testing,
but you don't have the infrastructure to support it.
(14:27):
And with the hydrogen trucks,
it sounds like to me,
they might be attempting to roll out a little bit more infrastructure,
but there's all these problems that kind of just move the problem around.
Like you were talking about,
they're bussing in all this hydrogen to make sure that they can supply these fueling stations with diesel trucks that does not make our,
(14:49):
as they call it the well to wheel uh cost of this fuel good at all.
In fact,
it makes it really expensive.
And furthermore,
we're not solving into that.
I'm gonna jump in here because one of the things I read in one of the articles you said,
quote,
filling a truck could cost $1800 in hydrogen.
(15:11):
The current diesel price is around $4 a gallon.
That's about a third of that.
Right?
And you're only getting 400 miles out of that 1800 if you're driving on flat ground and not having to climb any hills or sit in gridlock traffic like you already said.
And,
and actually I wrote this question down when I read that exact same excerpt from that article.
(15:31):
What is the most that you can ever remember spending to fill up your truck during your driving career?
Or,
or is there an estimate?
Maybe that it's gonna hate me for this,
but I never paid attention because he was paying for it.
But that's understandable.
Right.
You guys have fuel solutions worked in,
you were required to fuel at certain places at certain times,
(15:54):
I assume.
So.
Uh,
but nowhere near 1800 bucks,
I would assume.
I mean,
that just sounds astronomical.
I've heard a couple of drivers.
No,
you got,
I mean,
do the math.
You basically,
most trucks are gonna have around 100 gallon tanks.
You got two of them.
So if it's,
you know,
404 100 gallons,
two,
you know,
uh,
$4 a gallon,
(16:15):
I mean,
um,
then you're looking at,
what,
800 bucks,
right?
And I think the worst I've ever heard a driver on this podcast tell me was 1000.
And that was when diesel prices were so outrageous.
I mean,
they've come back to earth a little bit but,
you know,
there are still some places out there like the state of California where you might still be looking at six bucks a gallon and still,
(16:37):
even with that outrageous price,
you're not getting close to 1800 bucks.
And you're definitely getting more than 400 miles out of it.
So that is,
that is a big one.
I mean,
cost was one of the very first things that I put on my list of challenges.
Um We're looking at $36 per kilogram of hydrogen fuel right now.
(16:59):
Uh I don't understand why they had to do it by the kilogram instead of by the gallon.
Uh We're,
you know,
we're not on this metric system over here in the United States.
So this always dumb ass truckers can't figure it out.
And our US dumb ass podcast host too,
Denny because I was thinking about doing the math and I thought,
you know what,
rather than do the math,
(17:20):
we're just gonna talk about what the prices are because I'm gonna get it wrong trying to convert gallons to kilograms and vice versa.
Oh,
I've had,
I've had uh loads that I got away from there.
I went,
man,
this,
this feels a lot heavier than that.
I go back and look at my bill of lading and it's 10 kg and I got a conversion thing on my phone for that very reason.
(17:41):
Really?
Did you have to turn around there and,
and offload some or did you end up having to take it heavy?
How did that work out?
I don't know that it was ever overweight,
but I just know you drive a truck for a while,
you know how it feels and how it pulls and you pull away from there thinking you're,
you know,
you got a light load and all of a sudden it's like,
oh,
wait a minute,
something's wrong.
Do I have my breaks locked up and,
(18:03):
you know,
you go back and look and I didn't have to turn around and go back,
but I did have to make adjustments on my tandems to make sure I was legal and things like that.
But yeah,
that's kind of sneaky to put it in kilograms and you think,
oh,
I got a light load,
man.
I'll be,
I'll be hoping over these mountains and nothing flat.
No,
it wasn't that way.
No,
it's ok.
(18:24):
That's,
that's one of the beauties of what we get to do here is your experience is so valuable because you,
you've been out there and,
and you've dealt with some of the difficulties that just a regular diesel powered truck that we've been driving for.
God knows how many years uh can,
can put out there in front of you.
And now we're talking about this new technology that once again,
(18:46):
this is a recurring theme.
It's just not quite well enough sussed out yet for it to be rolled out and have a bunch of fleets,
uh get excited about it.
Now,
one part here,
we talked about the company Hyla in the Open,
uh which has plans for nine more hydrogen fuel outlets by mid 2024.
(19:07):
And I understand that the company wants to expand,
uh which also,
like I said earlier,
it kind of relates to the whole infrastructure thing.
Hey,
let's get the fueling stations out there before we get a bunch of trucks on the road.
So we can actually keep these things rolling.
However,
with Nicholas's money troubles that we also discussed in the open,
they've been threatened twice now by the NASDAQ to be delisted because their stock price is falling so low.
(19:32):
It makes me wonder if this is even feasible or an attainable goal for the company.
First Element Fuels.
According to uh Allen's article over at freight waves expected over 50,000 hydrogen powered vehicles to already be on the road.
Uh But right now they're more like 15,000.
So this is where I did do some math,
Denny.
So,
excuse me,
(19:52):
if I screwed it up,
it was never my strong suit,
but only having 30% of your estimate means that your sales forecasts are probably in the neighborhood of 70% too high,
which for me,
seems like a recipe for a company to sink beneath the tide if nickel is having money problems and it's been threatened by the NASDAQ with delisting.
(20:13):
Can we really expect them to roll out nine more filling outlets if they do clear that hurdle,
can we expect them to sell enough hydrogen to stay afloat?
It just none of these things really add up to me at this point?
It once again is a little bit of a cart before the horse or the tail wagging the dog situation if you will.
(20:34):
Yeah.
And you know,
something that comes to mind talking about setting up the infrastructure and getting all the truck stops on board.
Um,
idle,
air,
idle,
air was a great concept when they started it.
I mean,
you pull your truck in,
you put this thing in your window,
you had to have an adapter depending on what kind of truck you had.
But it gave you air conditioning and heat and cable TV,
(20:54):
and all this stuff and you paid so much.
Well,
once everybody started streaming and being able to download their own,
they didn't need the cable TV.
And most of the trucks now are,
you know,
they,
they have their own air conditioning.
You,
you've got the,
you know,
you've got the inverter so you didn't need shore power and all these things that were that idle air provided.
(21:15):
So they put in all of this infrastructure and then nobody used it or very few used it.
So I imagine the truck stops.
If they're going to have any kind of investment in this thing,
they're gonna be reluctant after that deal.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And there's probably,
there's going to be some,
uh,
you know,
some glad handing going around here.
(21:36):
And I can imagine just to get into some of these bigger truck stops like your loves and your flying J or whatever the case may be,
there's going to have to be a significant discount to them to purchase the fuel to then turn around and sell to the,
the,
the drivers or the fleets.
And again,
I'm,
I'm just seeing money problems all over the board here and look,
(22:01):
it's no,
it's no slim expense.
I mean,
we did read in one of these articles too that Nicola purchased five,
basically hydrogen producing electrolyzers is what they call them that cost him $30 million.06 million bucks apiece for these things.
And as we sit right now,
(22:22):
even if they're up and running,
you're not turning a profit on those,
there's just no way that you're going to out,
out,
earn that expenditure within.
I,
I mean,
who knows it?
It seems like at this point I would say like 10 years that seems about right.
But who knows?
Everything is with technology moves so fast,
(22:42):
it's exponential.
Uh You know,
I didn't think that we would be sitting here having a video conversation in 2024 like we are,
uh with,
you know,
you down in Texas and me up in Oregon,
back in even 2015.
That sounded like a,
a complete dream.
Uh So maybe they'll surprise me here,
but you gotta have enough money in your pocket to be able to spend enough money to make that go forward.
(23:08):
And right now it's just,
it doesn't look like they have that.
And another thing that comes up here when you talk about cost,
it's not only cost to the companies that are producing this technology.
Let's talk about fleet costs for a minute.
Allen wrote that the current estimates show that hydrogen trucks will cost more than even battery powered electric vehicles to maintain.
(23:29):
Which if you're talking about a hurdle at like a Tesla or a,
a Toyota Prius or any of these electric vehicles.
One of the biggest things that owners find is that,
you know,
58 years down the road,
they've got to replace batteries and those things are astronomically expensive.
It's not just like taking your rig in and having a lube,
oil and filter job done on it.
(23:50):
It will set you back thousands and thousands of dollars.
And when you're purchasing a vehicle for,
let's say,
you know,
a four wheeler electrical or electric vehicle like a Tesla,
you're not thinking I'm gonna spend 80 grand on this vehicle and then in eight years,
I'm gonna need to spend 12 grand more on top of it just to keep the thing on the road.
(24:11):
Well,
let's inflate that when we talk about trucking fleets.
Imagine how much more it costs to maintain the electric batteries in a heavy duty truck.
Well,
inflate that more because it costs more to service a hydrogen vehicle.
And the other number that really popped off the screen at me,
Denny was 80% up time is what they're estimating for these vehicles.
(24:32):
That means 20% of the vehicle's life it's gonna spend in the shop as a guy who drove,
uh,
you know,
heavy duty diesel vehicles.
How does 80% uptime sound to you?
Does that sound like,
uh,
it's gonna crack the,
crack the nut or is that down?
Way too much?
Sounds like they need to use it for local fleets that way they can,
(24:56):
you know,
they can slip into a different truck.
Uh,
the drivers can keep doing their job and they can just build that into the equation.
I just don't see how this is gonna work for a long haul trucking.
Uh,
at least in the foreseeable future.
Same thing with the electrics.
It could be either one,
the hydrogen or the electric could conceivably work for local deliveries,
(25:19):
you know,
delivering for UPS or,
or,
you know,
servicing the grocery stores in a certain region,
things like that where you go out and you come back to the same place every day that could work.
But anybody that's gonna be out for days or weeks or months at a time,
it's just,
it's not gonna happen,
at least not anytime in the foreseeable future.
(25:41):
You know,
the powers that be may force us into that as an industry which it looks like they're trying to do,
they're gonna force us into doing something like that.
But I mean,
you're gonna have to set up like,
say H and M would have to set up terminals,
substation terminals across the country just so they could keep this freight moving so that,
you know,
a driver could get out of truck number 908 and get into truck number 1803 and continue driving back into that trailer.
(26:09):
He's hauling and move on down the road like pony Express kinda did,
but it just seems like a real pain in the ass to me.
Well,
and let's not forget the upfront cost of these vehicles because what you're saying there,
if you're gonna slip seat,
your drivers,
you probably need some extra trucks.
You got 100 drivers,
maybe you need 100 and 20 trucks.
These things cost half a million bucks coming off the line that's significantly more expensive than a new Volvo or a new freight line or Cascadia.
(26:35):
And if you have to have so many more of them,
it just again,
cost,
I think the reason we talk about this kind of off the top here and,
and it's,
it's such a big issue that we're going to spend a lot of time talking about is because it's not just the company spending the money.
As I said,
it's the fleets that are going to be just racked by these uh,
(26:55):
maintenance costs and by the upfront costs.
So there are a lot of fleets that are already just kind of throwing their hands up and saying,
look not now and not any time soon.
There's got to be a lot more that comes to fruition before we can ever even consider this if we want to stay profitable and be able to pay our drivers.
You know,
we talked about the,
uh,
the logistics of it,
(27:16):
moving the fuel with diesel powered trucks.
That's a huge one,
another one.
Nicola has seen four leaders of the division come and go in the last three years now.
I don't stay up with corporate news very often.
Um,
but I can tell you right now that if Amazon had gone through four CEO s of their,
(27:37):
uh,
of their web services division in the last three years,
you would know about it and the stock price would reflect it.
And it makes me wonder somebody from the outside looking in Denny.
Um,
are these people resigning because they feel they can't meet the company's expectations because all of these guys have stepped down or are they being offered the abi ability to save face and resign when really the company decided to terminate them?
(28:02):
Because they're failing at their job?
Either way,
it doesn't look good because it looks like you've set really lofty goals and those lofty goals might outpace any one person's ability to actually achieve those goals.
And therefore you've got a trail of executives in your wake and let's not forget,
you don't just fire an executive that makes $600,000 a year.
(28:24):
Each one of these guys got paid out in excess of a million dollars,
not only for,
you know,
terminating their contract early,
but also for the benefits that they receive and things like stock options and health insurance and all the rest of it.
It just kind of seems like a money pit right now and I guess if there's some do-gooder out there that just want to throw money at it until it,
(28:47):
it works great.
But I don't know that making a profitable company out of this is something that we could even do at this point in time.
Everybody from the fleets all the way up to the manufacturers and the people that are supplying the fuel seem to just be shelling out hundreds of millions of dollars right now and they're not really earning a profit to back that up.
(29:08):
Yeah.
Can't argue with that.
I,
I,
it's,
it's just,
it's very strange to me and,
and I,
I hope,
you know,
listen,
I'm not a guy that hates the planet or anything like that.
I love going outdoors.
I'm an avid outdoorsman.
I like to hunt.
Uh,
I'm not so good at fishing,
but I really do enjoy it.
And I get the reason that we,
we do all of these things,
(29:29):
but it's almost like the planning phase isn't long enough.
Like maybe they,
they get so excited about the,
the,
what is it that,
uh,
Jeff Goldblum says in Jurassic Park,
you got so caught up with thinking about whether or not you could,
you never stop to consider whether or not you should and,
(29:50):
and that kind of feels like what we're dealing with here just based on the drivers that you've spoken to because you said you reached out to some of your friends that are drivers.
Do you think that this could,
let's say we're forced,
I'm going to put us in a hypothetical situation here.
We're forced by government legislation to everybody's got to get into a hydrogen truck by 2030 or,
(30:11):
or,
or some type of zero emission vehicle.
It doesn't have to be hydrogen.
But let's say they decide that that's the date.
How many drivers that have sworn by diesel for all these years do you think are gonna exit the market?
The employment market just based on that legislation?
I,
is that a thing that,
that is,
uh,
a possibility or do you think these drivers would roll with the punches and,
(30:35):
and just get in one and figure it out?
Well,
my buddy David,
who,
he lives in Myrtle Beach and is very opinionated.
Um,
he was,
he was,
that's what he talked about was,
was the price of the stuff.
And I don't know,
I,
I think he would be one of those that would stick it out in a diesel truck as long as he possibly could.
(31:01):
And then when you just couldn't anymore,
he,
that's when he would retire.
Um,
I just,
I don't see him going to,
to that,
uh,
some others might,
I mean,
I think it would a lot of time depend on the age of the trucker.
I mean,
if you're young and you got a family support and this is your career,
this is what you're trained in.
You don't really have a backup,
then you kinda gotta go with what's thrown at you.
(31:23):
But guys that have been in it for a few years,
they might find a more graceful way to get out and choose to do that because it doesn't make sense,
especially if you're a,
if you're an owner operator,
you're gonna be paying that fuel cost,
right?
Yeah,
that's a huge one.
And I,
I wonder to,
you know,
obviously,
not everybody has the ability to just bail out and go do something else,
(31:45):
but maybe some of these guys start to take uh different CD L jobs.
You know,
one thing that actually kind of popped up that I totally forgot to mention earlier is waste management services um running these types of vehicles like ups a lot like you were saying that that really does make sense and,
and in the waste management sphere,
which is already uh uh a kind of an industry that struggles with trying to keep things green and trying to be uh environmentally friendly.
(32:14):
This could be a big leg up for them and also an ability to test this out over the long term.
I feel like a lot of the,
the testing that we get right now is,
well,
it worked for six months.
Let's get it on the docket for Congress to talk about.
That ain't gonna work.
We're gonna make all these laws around things that are going to change in the long term.
And we're just checking to see.
(32:35):
Well,
it,
it ran just fine from Ontario,
California to the port of Oakland.
That's all well and good.
But that is a blip on the map as far as mileage and what we're talking about with most of these,
uh,
you know,
long haul companies.
So I,
I guess I'm one of those people that sits here and goes,
look,
this is a cool idea and if we could snap our fingers and make it all work and everybody got to be right at the same level that they were making the same money or more,
(33:04):
uh,
fleets were not caused to just sink because of the upfront cost.
It would be great.
I think we're a long way from that.
Danny.
I think we might be more than a decade out.
Uh,
at least from even being able to show what it is that we have to prepare for.
And that's where I,
I mean,
I was gonna say,
(33:24):
why,
why do they throw this on the,
the trucking industry?
I mean,
if they want to make these changes,
like you said,
why don't we do municipal,
municipal stuff?
Why don't they put freight trains on this stuff.
Why don't they put sails on boats again?
Maybe have some kind of engine as a backup in case there's no wind but sales work for hundreds of thousands of years.
(33:46):
Why don't we go back to that?
That's about as green as you can get.
Yep,
it is.
And it makes me wonder if it's almost the,
these types of things happen.
They penalize certain industries because industries have been so successful.
Let's not joke with each other here.
Uh If it wasn't for the trucking industry,
this company or this whole country would come to a screeching halt within,
(34:09):
I mean days.
You're talking about empty store shelves within a week.
And uh when you know,
people always talk about what if the electrical grid goes down?
What if we just ran out of diesel?
All right,
if that happened,
this whole country is mad max in 10 days tops and you wouldn't even have to run out of diesel,
run out of death and the trucks will shut down.
(34:31):
There you go.
Exactly.
And so,
so what happened?
I mean,
can we produce enough hydrogen to even sustain the entire trucking industry?
I think that we're,
I say we're a decade off from knowing the things that we need to know.
We might be 50 years from being able to even have the capacity to serve more than a few 1000 of these things.
So,
at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy and I'll take that risk.
(34:56):
Is it possible that the,
the people in power now are not in the oil and petrol industry and they're trying to find a way to make their fast buck.
So they're pushing everything into something else.
I,
I don't think that's a,
that's,
I won't even look at that as a conspiracy theory.
Danny,
I think we've seen enough proof over the last 5,
(35:18):
10 years of politicians,
um,
trading stocks uh on what certainly looks like on the surface insider trading.
If you compare some of these,
uh you know,
Nancy Pelosi is an example,
I'll use,
she trades at a more successful rate than Warren Buffett,
who's the most successful trader of all time.
That tells me that she's got to maintain that lifestyle on a senator's salary.
(35:43):
You don't,
you start to get in bed with all sorts of different companies,
whether it be tech or,
or fossil fuels and,
and you know,
that she only stayed with the fossil fuels or I shouldn't say just she,
there's a lot of politicians out there that are guilty of this on both sides of the aisle.
But you get in bed with these companies and you ride that wave until it's time for legislation to change and then you pull all your money out,
(36:08):
you take your profits and those stocks that you used to support sink while the ones that you've already bought up because you knew new legislation was coming.
Right.
And you just continue to make money,
hand over fist.
Uh,
you know,
we could do a complete full podcast on my thoughts of uh politicians being able to trade stocks.
(36:28):
Um,
I know that they make it public and their trading has to be public,
but we,
the consumer don't see tho those reports until some like 45 days after those trades are made.
So even if you're trying to follow those people,
chances are you're gonna end up having to spend a lot more than what they did to get the same amount of stock and your profits are gonna be a sliver of what theirs are.
(36:51):
And that's why I don't say,
I think it's a conspiracy theory.
I think it's proven,
I think it's going on uh the,
the politicians in place,
however many of them there are,
are just making sweetheart deals for the companies that they're invested in so that they can go live on an island when this is all said and done.
However,
I think that some of them are so successful that they won't leave.
(37:15):
And that's one of the reasons we got a bunch of 8090 year old people that are,
are,
are living out their golden years in Congress or in the Senate because why would I go anywhere?
I'm making generational wealth by just slipping a couple things here and there into different bills that are getting passed through and the companies that I'm riding are,
(37:36):
are riding with me and we're all making money.
Uh,
but it's the little guy that suffers it when,
when that all trickles down.
Look at the truck driver,
look at what they're going through because their rates aren't going up.
We've talked on this podcast about the freight market over the last year or so and we all know that there's a lot of sweat under the collar of a lot of companies.
I mean,
(37:56):
so many companies have shut down recently,
uh just over the last couple of years due to this market.
So we might have to get into that at a later date.
Denny where we do uh like a conspiracy podcast because again,
I think we should come up with a different word because conspiracy just has such a negative connotation.
(38:16):
I think what you're presenting there is,
is factually correct.
I think it's anything but a conspiracy at this point,
we could do that sometime.
I,
I bet David would have a bunch of fun with that one.
Hey,
I love it,
man.
We'll get,
we'll get him on here and talk to him about it.
Uh We're running up against the clock button ready.
(38:37):
We'll put that on our audio ninja mic.
I don't try to keep up with those live,
especially when I get a seven second delay,
man.
Uh It's funny the old seven second delay,
you know,
when I was uh live on the air,
we had a nine second delay and it only gave us three solid three second dumps.
And for those of you that are,
are kind of scratching your head.
(38:58):
Uh A lot of radio shows that you listen to live out there on the uh terrestrial radio stations will be delayed in case somebody drops a crispy F bomb on the air.
Ever since Janet Jackson uh was exposed by uh by Justin Timberlake at that Super Bowl halftime show,
the final from the FCFCC for saying,
or doing something on the air that isn't allowed skyrocketed and stations will lose their licenses for that type of thing.
(39:24):
So you might think you're listening live,
but you're listening to just a slight delay and that just covers the radio station's ass,
you know,
do you ever have any,
uh any instances where you,
uh almost got pulled off the air for anything that shouldn't have gone over,
Danny?
I didn't.
No.
Um We did have the seven second delay and there was some kind of recorded thing that said you can't talk like that on our radio station that covered that seven seconds and you just hear this out of the blue.
(39:54):
Wonder what the heck was that?
Uh That's great and I shouldn't even bring it up.
Y'all can probably Google it and find it.
But uh way back when Howard Stern had the largest find in radio broadcast history for a joke,
he told that,
uh,
well,
it became the largest because the FCC decided to find every radio station that aired it and he was the most syndicated show at the time,
(40:18):
I'm sure.
Yeah.
Oh,
yeah.
Yeah,
I'll tell you before you look it up.
It's pretty tasteless.
Oh,
I,
I imagine.
I mean,
and,
and hey,
it's,
that's the kind of radio that I got into and fell in love with.
And Howard Stern was a big part of it.
Um,
our delay was funny because once we used all of it,
if you,
if you were Savvy and you were listening,
(40:40):
you could tell that we had used all of the delay because our voices slowed down ever so slightly.
Well,
that nine seconds built back up because we,
we,
we're not comfortable without it.
And,
you know,
we,
we took a lot of live phone calls and those stopped dead because a live phone call.
If you don't have a phone screener,
(41:00):
you can't guarantee who's even gonna be on the other line there.
And,
uh,
a lot of fun.
I,
you know,
Denny and I are definitely gonna spend some time on this podcast in the future,
reminiscing about our times on the radio waves because,
uh,
if you're anything like me,
it was,
it was one of the most fun times in my life and I,
I enjoyed it and it really did shape me as a broadcaster.
(41:20):
Uh,
but we have a few freedoms here on this podcast that we didn't have to worry that we never had while I was on the radio.
And I,
I always take it back to when,
uh Eve Essy head of hr at H and M dropped the first ever F bomb on this podcast.
And I told her,
Eve,
I said,
Eve,
you've opened the floodgates because if the hr lady's gonna come on here and do it,
(41:42):
there ain't no way you're gonna be stopping any of the rest of these guys.
So I thought it'd come from me.
You never do.
But hey,
uh,
she's had a lot of fun on this podcast and we appreciate all the work that she's done.
Um This has been a great conversation,
Denny,
thanks for coming in here and talking about it.
We're gonna go ahead and move on to,
uh to our next segment now,
(42:03):
but this should be interesting to watch as the months unfold.
Uh,
mid 2024 is not that far away.
Some of these uh companies are saying we're gonna have nine more fueling stations.
You're gonna start to see them out there.
You're also gonna start to see diesel trucks deliver them the hydrogen fuel,
which it seems like an oxymoron in the worst type of way.
(42:24):
But,
uh,
we'll see how it shapes out and we'll keep talking about it as the new breaks.
And again,
I,
I wanna say thanks to Alan Adler over at Freight waves.com for writing these articles.
Um Alan's got a great head on his shoulders for stuff like this.
And you can tell as a journalist that he doesn't get b sed by a lot of,
uh,
press releases that come out and,
(42:44):
and shine positive light where there really is.
None.
So we'll keep an eye on this and,
uh,
we'll bring you any updates as the days roll on.
Ok,
before we jump out of here,
a couple of things to make you aware of the coming up this weekend.
Actually,
this next week,
the first through the 10th is Daytona Bike week.
So you're gonna see a lot of bikes on trailers for these super bikers.
(43:05):
I always hats off.
I give them a honk and a wave when they actually ride their motorcycle to the rally.
But you'll see a lot of trailers and people that aren't accustomed to driving them and especially on the way back,
they'll be tired and possibly hung over.
So,
just be aware,
uh,
the extra innings festival continuing in Tempe the first and the second and M three fest is in Phoenix.
(43:26):
Both of those are real close to each other.
So around Phoenix watch out the first and the second.
Maybe a lot of traffic.
And,
you know,
we're getting to that time of year too where you're gonna see a lot more motorcycles out on the road and just from a safety standpoint,
I imagine being they're hard enough to see in my full size pickup.
I can't imagine that they're any easier to see from the cab of,
of a heavy duty truck.
(43:46):
So,
uh,
you know,
keep your eyes on your mirrors.
Look out for those guys,
especially down around Daytona because there's gonna be a lot of them.
Bike week is no joke down there in Florida.
No,
it's one of the biggest in the nation.
And,
uh,
like I say,
you,
it'll be days in and out.
Um,
and all,
you know,
I 95 I,
75 everything coming down to Florida is gonna,
(44:07):
gonna have em.
So,
just watch out,
keep your eyes out.
Thanks for bringing that to us.
Denny.
Let's get to the next bit.
Denny.
Uh,
you and I talked a little bit off the air after that last segment and,
um,
there's not a lot of super exciting parts about hydrogen powered trucks and we did go on,
(44:30):
I feel like we did a really good job covering it,
but I kind of want to steer the wheels away from,
uh,
the whole hum.
That is that type of news.
And as part of the show,
I wanna learn as much about you as I possibly can,
whether it be from your broadcasting career or your trucking career,
your military service,
anything,
uh,
that there is to learn about the person that is Denny Stone.
(44:52):
So I just asked you to come with a story and I've got no idea where this is going and I can't wait to hear what kind of story we're gonna have today during Denny's story time.
So the floor is yours,
my friend,
it can be dangerous.
You know,
you give me free reign like that.
Uh Well,
I thought about it and asked Dawn my wife and of course she suggested talking about Gilly because there's so many stories about Gilly.
(45:16):
But you,
you said me.
So here we go.
Um It's been a number of years ago.
I was with H and M at the time and uh I got,
got to run to Spokane,
which excited me because first of all,
it was,
it was good miles.
And my mother,
(45:36):
when she was still with us,
lived in Cola,
which is just east of Spokane.
So it gave me a chance to,
you know,
if I could make good time,
I could get to see my mom.
So from Wichita to Spokane is uh 1650 maybe 1700 miles.
I don't remember what they paid me for.
It's been so long ago,
but it's a good run.
It's good miles.
(45:56):
And I also had plenty of time which some drivers,
they don't like that because they wanna just go,
go,
go,
go,
go make money all the time.
I'm like,
you know,
life's too short,
enjoy it.
So I had plenty of time.
Actually,
it wasn't too much out of route.
I could hit my fuel stops.
So I,
I took a different route.
(46:17):
Uh I had three stops in this run.
I stopped in Wichita,
Wichita,
Kansas and I picked up they weren't bobcats but they were like bobcats.
You know,
the little bulldozer looking thing where it raises over the cab.
You know what I'm talking about?
Like I said,
I don't think it was John Deere either.
It might have been,
but it was that kind of thing and there was only four of them.
So I knew,
you know,
I'm not gonna spend a lot of time at warehouses,
(46:38):
getting unloaded or anything.
Had four of them.
So my first stop was in Casper Wyoming.
So from Wichita to Casper Wyoming and then from there,
from Casper to Bozeman,
that was,
that was what I was pumped about because I,
I had the time I took the alternate route,
I went up through West Yellowstone,
up through Du Bois and I mean,
(47:00):
just a beautiful run.
You don't often get to drive that route.
So I was excited about that.
At one point along there,
I thought there was a couple of coyotes on the shoulder of the road and I'm looking,
I'm looking at it.
I got close.
They didn't move,
they sat there,
they were just mere feet yards from my truck going by at highway speed.
No,
it was two wolves.
Oh,
(47:20):
wow.
That's a little bit chilling.
That was cool.
Well,
you're talking about God's country up there too,
but when you see something like a Wolff,
an apex predator like that.
It really does kind of throw you out of your mindset.
Just appreciating the beauty to all of a sudden thinking,
man.
That's a,
that's a stone cold killer standing on the side of the road right there just sitting there watching the trucks go by or the truck.
(47:46):
I was the only big one on the road at the time,
but that was,
that was a beautiful drive.
I've only driven in all the years and all the miles.
I only drove the west side of Yellowstone two times and that was one of them.
So anyway,
my first stop was Caspar.
Then Bozeman.
Then,
then I got up to,
uh,
I did get up there the day before.
Um,
fairly early in the day.
(48:07):
I think it was around noon time.
I got,
got to post falls.
There's a couple of truck stops there and I don't remember.
It's either flying area to loves.
I stopped at,
but my mother came over and met me and we spent the afternoon and had a good dinner and had a good visit next morning.
I went on over to Spokane to drop the last of this load.
So I get over there,
(48:27):
they unloaded it and I went to shut my doors and I'm like,
whoa,
whoa,
whoa,
whoa,
whoa,
wait a minute.
I don't have any more stops.
There's another one of these bobcat things in here.
He showed me his bit of lady,
dude.
We only ordered 10,
no.
But I mean,
each stop,
I mean,
(48:47):
these things are not cheap,
I'm sure.
So each stop,
you know,
I have a bill of lading.
They sign off on it.
I close my doors.
I head off.
Well,
I guess I should have counted because Casper Wyoming was supposed to get two of them.
Oh,
no.
They only took one from Spokane Washington back to Casper Wyoming is,
(49:08):
I just looked it up 866 miles.
It's a long way.
Can't drive 866 miles legally in one day.
So I had to make a very awkward phone call.
What are we gonna do?
And how did you figure it out?
(49:30):
Well,
I was,
I felt horrible because it obviously I wasn't diligent enough.
I didn't check everything.
I,
you know,
I was like,
man,
don't fire me,
please.
You know,
that's kind of what I was thinking.
I'm like,
please don't fire me.
Can we work this out?
I'm like,
I,
I volunteered to,
to pay for the fuel.
They wouldn't hear of it.
You know,
(49:50):
they all said no,
you know,
everybody makes mistakes.
We're not gonna pay you to drive that 866 miles back to Casper,
but we'll take care of the fuel.
That's good enough because I assume 800 miles is uh is not cheap when it comes to fuel.
When,
when you're talking about diesel,
like that would have been just the fact that they didn't pay you for that time already probably kind of stings a little bit.
(50:14):
But saving you that out of pocket,
what,
probably 6,
800 bucks at the absolute minimum was a,
was a pretty big deal.
Yeah.
Figure,
maybe eight miles to the gallon.
800 miles.
That's 100 gallons,
100 gallons at,
you know,
four bucks a pop.
So,
we're looking at quite a bit of money and I didn't feel right.
You know,
I wanted to pay for that because that was my mistake.
(50:36):
But they wouldn't let me,
um,
like I say,
I didn't,
I didn't make the money for the trip back and of course,
I lost miles that I could have been driving after that route.
Uh,
but yeah,
that was,
that was Denny's bad.
So,
well,
I didn't think there myself in the butt story for you.
(50:57):
Right.
You come in here with a story that's got a lesson involved to just be diligent and count all of your,
uh,
count all your deliveries and everything because you'd think that with some,
a piece of equipment that expensive on the trailer that the receiver is going to be very diligent.
But I guess they have,
they have those days just like we do and I don't think they had even contacted anybody to go.
(51:19):
Whoa,
wait a minute,
we didn't get both of our,
you know,
you,
I don't know.
I,
I sure would have been checking if I paid for those things.
But me too.
Anyway.
Um,
so it was all ok in the end,
I guess.
But yeah,
my beautiful ride out there turned into a pretty stressful ride on the way back because I was trying to get it back and get it back to him and,
(51:40):
you know,
I,
I don't often make terrible mistakes.
Everybody does but makes mistakes.
But yeah,
that one,
that one was a tough one.
I think it's,
I might be wrong with my roads here,
but you mentioned Post Falls.
Idaho.
Uh,
one of the most beautiful bridge over canyon stretches that I've ever been on is at Post Falls and I think it's just off of interstate 84 if I'm not mistaken,
(52:08):
uh Big chasm,
Giant Canyon and a bridge that goes right over the top of it.
And multiple times that I've been on that bridge headed into Post Falls,
there's been people free ba or free jumping,
whatever they call it a base jumping off of there.
I don't know why I said free.
I believe you're thinking of Idaho Falls.
Oh,
is it Idaho Falls?
Ok.
I'm sorry,
(52:28):
then.
Yes.
Uh,
but still an amazing area out there.
I feel like Idaho and that kind of eastern Washington part of the Pacific Northwest is underappreciated.
Um,
you know,
Spokane,
one of my favorite drives was to go up through Montana through Missoula and then cross over into Idaho and uh,
(52:49):
you go across a couple of passes and you come,
come across,
you take a bend and then you're looking at,
you're looking down at one of the most beautiful lakes you'll ever see in your life.
When you're coming into Cour Lane.
It's just gorgeous.
I mean,
it's,
that was one,
not just because my mother lived there,
but just because of the scenic beauty.
I love that drive.
That was one of my favorites.
(53:11):
We used to do a lot of uh,
school clothes shopping up in Spokane when I was younger because it was one of the closest population centers to the little mountain town I lived in,
uh,
and we always used to call it uh Spo Compton or Spokane Aan.
There was always a lot of crime going on.
Our parents wouldn't let us run around uh,
much like we wanted to.
But,
you know,
(53:31):
uh I also played in,
uh in Hoop Fest out there in Spokane.
If you're familiar,
they took you to the big town to shop for clothes.
Dad took me to the feed store and I had to try him on to make sure that one leg wasn't three inches shorter than the other one because all they got was factory seconds.
Well,
if I were to tell you,
it's true.
I was in high school with a job earning my own money before I got to go anywhere.
(53:55):
But the feed store to buy clothes.
If I told you that the feed store in Enterprise Oregon didn't have clothes back then.
Would you believe me?
I guess,
you know,
I'm from Texas.
Feed stores have everything.
Yeah,
that's,
I mean,
we always thought it was actually called,
uh,
grain Growers and it's still called Grain growers,
if I'm not mistaken.
Uh,
my dad actually called me probably 68 months ago and said there's an H and M truck parked at grain growers right now.
(54:21):
I said,
well,
go down there and shake the guy's hand,
man.
He knows who I am.
Come on,
talk to him and by the time he got down there it was gone.
But,
yeah,
I couldn't,
we couldn't,
if you wanted clothes to come out of the town that I lived in Denny,
you had to have mom make em.
And I think at that point in time in my life it was just easier to drive the five hours to Spokane and,
(54:41):
uh,
save her fingers on the sewing machine because,
uh,
you know,
I'm not the most fashion forward gentleman out there,
but I,
I was a little bit picky,
you know,
shorts had to hit the knees the whole thing.
So,
uh,
but,
you know,
as I was saying,
fantastic area up there.
Uh,
II,
I really do enjoy Spokane.
I've got a,
uh,
one of my best friends in the world is a dentist up in Spokane and I don't make it up there enough to see him.
(55:05):
The Quarter.
Is that Lake Quarterlane that you were talking about?
Is the lake that you're looking down on when you come in or is that Lake Roosevelt?
Lake Quarterlane?
Uh,
my family used to go out.
Uh,
our,
our one big vacation each year was to,
they,
they rent house boats,
uh,
out on Lake Roosevelt.
They're,
they're relatively affordable and we had a,
(55:26):
you know,
a boat that we took out and we used to go rent a house boat and Lake Roosevelt for those of you that don't know,
is,
is much more a river than it is a lake.
It runs for like 100 miles.
Uh,
it's,
it's a crazy long stretch of water and we used to just drive from beach to beach and each night we would camp on a different beach and then flip her around after four days and head back on the fifth day.
(55:49):
I have some great memories from that area.
And,
uh,
I'm glad you got to make it out there.
You know,
it's,
uh,
it's,
it's a little bit of a stretch from Texas.
It's about as far as you can go northwest.
Uh,
unless you want to go to Seattle.
And who wants to go there?
My sister lives outside of Seattle,
so I'd get to see her when I went out that way.
That's where I had those oysters that were giant.
(56:10):
I've never seen oysters as big as I did.
I think that was Olympia,
I wanna say.
But she took me somewhere and they were like chicken thighs.
Like,
no,
I've never had to take a knife and fork to a Texas Gulf oyster.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They grow them a little different up there.
Uh,
I think they have to put up with a few more elements out there in the,
uh,
off the coast of the Pacific and in the Puget Sound than what they do,
(56:31):
uh,
down in the Gulf of Texas.
Now,
I'm not very familiar with the Gulf of Texas,
but I do know that the Puget sound is,
is not a friendly place unless the sun is shining.
And I think that happens like seven or eight days a year in Seattle.
So,
you know,
it's a,
it's a tough place,
but I'll tell you there's no place better than seafood.
Uh Somebody,
last time I went out to Omaha,
(56:51):
one of the guys I was at dinner with tried to get me,
hey,
let's have some sushi.
Like,
man,
you didn't just ask me to fly all the way to the Midwest to have sushi when I can go grab it out of the ocean and eat it the same day.
Did you?
I was a little shaky on that.
You can't pay me enough to eat bait.
Thank you very much.
Well,
Denny,
I look forward to as many of these stories as you'll tell us in the future.
(57:14):
Thank you for sharing that one with us,
sorry,
that it turned out like it did.
But I'm glad that it worked out.
And,
uh,
you know,
actually I had one more question for you.
Let's just hypothetically say that that tractor,
the people in Casper didn't want it,
they didn't order it.
You ended up with it on your truck.
What happens to it after that?
Is that your tractor now?
(57:35):
Because I've heard some drivers will get like a pallet of chicken nuggets when they don't have anybody to deliver it to.
And if they've got the freezer space for it,
the,
the carrier just let him take it home.
What would have happened with that if Casper didn't want it?
I don't know about something that expensive.
But yeah,
I've had,
I had,
uh,
gosh,
one time I ended up with,
I think it was three full pallets of those half gallon,
(57:57):
jugs of paste Pican sauce.
I was giving it away right and left.
I finally had to put it in a dumpster because I had another load to pick up.
Nobody else wanted it.
Everybody in the truck stop had some,
um,
other times I've,
I've had,
you know,
like a few cans of something,
you know,
like one can got dented or something and they refused it.
Well,
(58:18):
that there were,
we go to Story City quite a bit and,
uh,
there was a guy there that man,
he just loved getting those,
you know,
cafeteria size cans of beans or something.
So I'd just always take them to him and he took good care of me.
He'd always get me in and out pretty quick.
I don't know how many cans of beans or chili or whatever he wound up with over the years.
(58:38):
But,
you know,
sometimes I'd come home with it.
Um,
but most of the time it rarely happened,
it wasn't often,
uh,
but,
you know,
occasionally something like that does.
Yeah,
we also had a driver on here,
uh,
a while back.
This has been all the way back to the unplugged OTR days.
Uh,
told us that he ended up with a,
(58:58):
I think it was a pallet of pizza rolls.
Totino's pizza rolls.
And he said,
you don't understand how big a pallet is until you stack it full of pizza rolls and send it home with one guy with a family of three.
he's probably still eating pizza rolls to this day.
I don't know what the,
what his diet probably looks like.
But,
uh,
I,
I mean,
(59:18):
I brought a,
a load from,
I was in,
uh,
Virginia,
took a load to Kansas City to a grocery warehouse and there was about not even a half,
a pallet.
There was barely more than one.
It was like 1.5 stacks high of,
of yogurt,
(59:39):
fresh yogurt.
These,
these weren't the ones we ordered,
they ordered different flavors and the guy in the warehouse,
I mean,
we're standing around for like two or three hours while they sort all this out.
The guy on the docks going,
you know,
these idiots are gonna order these flavors tomorrow,
but they wouldn't release it.
They wouldn't take it,
they wouldn't accept it.
They wouldn't let me dump it.
(59:59):
I had to drive all the way back to Virginia with that little bit of yo,
you could have put that yogurt in the back seat of a Toyota easily.
I had to drive all the way back to Virginia.
The company,
I guess had to eat the fuel charge.
I had to lose the,
well,
they paid me for the miles but you know,
it's just some of the crazy stuff you do you see out here on the road,
(01:00:21):
one of my first loads is a solo driver.
Ba back,
way,
way back when I picked up this security load in Los An East Los Angeles,
they had concertina wire around the warehouse and stuff because this was not a good part of town and I'm there in the middle of the night picking up this load.
And when I went to,
to close the doors,
(01:00:42):
they were taking pictures and everything and I closed the door.
I was loaded all the way floor to ceiling,
all the way to the doors with Sony HD TV.
S.
Wow.
Closed it,
put a lock on it,
you know,
uh,
drove it all the way to somewhere in Virginia,
offloaded it.
They told me Ok.
Well,
(01:01:02):
you can drop that trailer here and pick up this other trailer and take that.
Ok,
cool.
Don't have to wait on none.
Look.
So I dropped that one backed into the oven,
pulled the other one out.
They're out there taking pictures.
I'm shutting the doors.
Guess what?
I've got a trailer load of HD.
Sony HD TV.
S,
I'll give you three guesses where they're going east L A,
(01:01:25):
Los Angeles,
California.
Does anybody talk to anybody else?
This is nuts.
Communication.
Be damned.
Denny.
I mean,
just get it on the truck and get it out there.
Who cares if it comes back tomorrow?
They pay me and drive the miles.
I just,
I shake my head and I go,
I quit trying to make sense out of this a long time ago and it probably eases the stress to do.
(01:01:48):
So I imagine just,
you know what my load's my load,
no sense in trying to make sense to me.
Well,
that is gonna wrap it up for us here on episode 49 of the H and M Trucking Podcast,
as I said before,
Denny,
appreciate you sharing that story with us and,
and all the stories and I can't wait to hear all the rest of them because I know that you've got a full rolodex of them and that's just,
(01:02:11):
uh a little bit of what you can look forward to as the H and M Trucking podcast matures.
Uh,
and on that note,
next week,
we got a very special episode planned for you.
It's our 50th episode anniversary and we are going to celebrate.
We've got a bunch of people coming off to uh Pat me and Denny on the back,
which is what we desperately need and deserve.
(01:02:33):
Uh So I can't wait for next week's episode.
As always,
I'm the new guy on the block.
You're the one that deserves this,
but I will take that frozen margarita.
Ok.
Well,
I could do that for you,
Denny Head Northwest,
man.
You'll meet me at some point.
All right,
maybe out there at Yellowstone,
we'll,
we'll uh we'll tame a wolf.
Have a margarita.
It will be a good time out there.
(01:02:54):
We got a plan now.
All right,
everybody.
Thanks for being here and as we always say,
stay fresh cheese bags.
Thank you for listening to the H and M Trucking podcast.
Please leave a review,
subscribe and connect with Marcus over at the H and M trucking social media channels.
(01:03:15):
And if you're considering a job at H and M,
find us at HM trucking.com.
Until next time.
Stay safe and ahead of the curve drivers.
What's up everybody and welcome to the H and M Trucking Podcast episode 49.
I am your host,
Marcus Bridges.
Thank you so much for being here today.
Again.
I say this all the time.
You guys that are out there,
click and download,
click and subscribe are doing us a huge favor.
So if you haven't yet make sure to subscribe to the show on whatever podcast platform you use or on youtube.
(00:26):
Every time we put out something new,
it will notify you,
it's free and uh you know,
it just makes me feel good inside and,
and that's all I can ask for from you after you're out there going through the motions doing this tough job that requires you to drive all over this great country.
Uh I get to sit here in my chair and talk to you about trucking things.
(00:47):
So,
anything that you do that makes my job easier.
I just see as a huge favor and uh really appreciate it as well as the team.
We're all uh tipping our caps to you for clicking,
subscribe and clicking down load.
So thanks for being out there and checking out the H and M Trucking podcast.
Uh Before we get into what we've got going on today,
I want to welcome a couple new drivers to the team.
(01:10):
Darius Wiggins is out there cruising in a van OTR.
Welcome Darius and I didn't make,
I didn't wanna make that seem like he's actually driving around in like a Chevy Astro van.
He is hauling a dry van trailer.
Uh He's not just cruising in a creepy minivan.
So thanks Darius,
welcome to the show.
(01:31):
Uh The big show as we call it here at H and M Trucking.
Not this show,
just H and M trucking is the big show.
We love to.
We welcome the new drivers all the time.
If you,
new drivers are out there checking out the podcast going,
hey,
I wanna hear my voice come over the airwaves,
get in touch with Sherry Vogler or Eve Eery or really any of the employees there,
your driver manager,
(01:52):
your dispatcher,
if you let them know that you wanna be on this podcast,
they will get the news to me and we will make it happen.
So,
what's going on today?
Well,
we figured it's a good time to do an episode on hydrogen fuel.
You know,
uh here in the weeks past,
actually,
probably in the months past,
it's been a little while,
(02:12):
but we've talked about electric trucks,
we've talked about autonomous trucks and A I and how that's going to affect trucking going forward and it only makes sense that we do an episode concerning hydrogen refueling because uh,
trucks that run out of hydrogen can obviously burn a lot cleaner.
And from what I've heard,
I'm no scientist,
(02:32):
but this is supposed to be a much more renewable resource.
So let's see what we can find out.
I'm gonna dig in here a little bit right off the top before we get to being joined by Denny Stone and some other uh surprises that I have for you later on.
I just want to read this article to you.
Uh This comes from Clean trucking.com.
Now,
(02:53):
as I always say,
consider the source,
OK?
It comes from a website called Clean trucking.com.
So generally,
I would expect this to be a little bit more of a positive skew.
I'm not saying that it's wrong.
I'm not saying it's factually incorrect at all.
What I am saying is that uh Clean trucking.com is probably all about hydrogen fuel.
(03:14):
So they're gonna tell us the high points and the things that are going right.
Let's see what it has to say here.
Uh The article starts Nicola Corporation announced Monday via its Hyla brand.
That's Hyl A.
It has opened its first Hyla hydrogen refueling station in southern California featuring advanced modular fueler.
(03:34):
The station at 2445 East Guasti road in Ontario,
California represents the latest phase in Nicola's commitment to providing hydrogen refueling solutions for class eight trucks.
Nicola says the Ontario station will be capable of fueling up to 40 Niccola hydrogen fuel cell electric class eight trucks daily.
(03:57):
This station is part of a strategic plan to establish up to 60 hydrogen refueling solutions in the coming years with nine planned to be in place by the close of quarter 2 2024 which is not that far away.
That's in the summer.
Niccola will provide 24 7 support with on-site Hala ambassadors and operation techs ensuring a seamless and efficient fueling experience for customers.
(04:23):
According to the company,
uh here's a quote.
We are thrilled to open the first Hyla hydrogen refueling station in southern California.
Marking a significant milestone for Nicola and offering convenient access for our customers.
Says President of Energy Hoffman,
easing the transition to a zero emission trucking future and prioritizing access to a hydrogen solution network is our top objective and we're just getting started once the nine planned solutions are in place.
(04:54):
By mid 2024 Niccola will have established one of the world's largest heavy duty hydrogen refueling networks,
providing customers accessibility at their current locations and along their planned routes and quote.
Working alongside industry leaders,
Niccola states that it is securing a robust hydrogen supply chain for refueling infrastructure to support its in its growing customer base.
(05:20):
The continued development of the refueling ecosystem is anticipated to further facilitate the adoption of hydrogen fuel cell electric trucks and contribute to the dear organization of transportation.
Finally,
it says the Hila Refueling Solutions Network will offer Nicola hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles and other class eight customers,
(05:41):
flexible refueling options including modular and permanent hyla stations,
customer owned facilities and partnerships with public truck stops.
The company adds,
so there you have it.
Clean trucking.com obviously got in touch with Nicola here and said,
what's up?
What do you got going on?
And Nicola gave them,
they,
you know,
the,
(06:02):
the grass is greener on the hydrogen side report of what's going on their business.
They're trying to make money,
they're trying to expand.
I totally understand.
But now I want to turn your attention to an article written by our friend Alan Adler over at freight waves.com.
Now,
Alan's been on the show before and he is a great resource for this type of thing.
But Alan's article is titled No Signs of Panic as Nicola gets second,
(06:27):
NASDAQ delisting warning.
This came out in the end of January.
It says that the company has at least 180 days to regain compliance as its share price.
Languishes,
Nicola Corp's languishing share price prompted the NASDAQ to threaten the electric truck maker with delisting its stock for a second time in eight months,
(06:48):
but don't look for the company to panic.
Allen says the quickest way to remove the threat is a reverse stock split in which company issues one new share for a multiple of outstanding shares,
usually one for 20 or more,
but without the positive news driving such an action,
NASDAQ scrutiny would continue and I'm gonna read you a quick quote here from Nicola Ceo Steve Gery,
(07:13):
uh,
quote.
It doesn't really change anything except it creates a higher share price.
This is something he said in December with an interview with freight waves,
a reverse split hasn't come up at the board.
It doesn't mean it won't come up when we look at the top five things we're working on.
That's not one of them.
Look,
that means that,
uh,
(07:33):
they've been given a warning by the NASDAQ that,
hey,
you're almost not a publicly traded company anymore.
Getting delisted means you go back to being a private company if I'm not mistaken.
So maybe there's a little bit more to this,
but it seems that based on when these articles came out,
like I said,
Allen's article on Freight waves.com came out on,
uh January 20th and that article that I read you off the top from Clean trucking.com came out February 5th.
(08:00):
It makes sense that maybe there was a little bit of bad news out there in the water where NASDAQ was threatening to delist.
Nicola.
So Nicola wanted to get out in front of that or actually just slightly behind it and say,
listen,
we're opening our hydrogen fueling uh refueling station,
which is great except for there's like barely any hydrogen trucks running out there right now.
(08:21):
And most of them are only running in California at the time being.
So we're gonna get into this a lot more.
I've got Denny Stone joining me around the corner.
We're gonna chat this up and figure out,
uh,
what exactly we think about these new hydrogen refueling stations and hydrogen powered electric trucks,
class eights as they are defined uh,
(08:42):
in these articles.
So without further ado,
we're gonna go ahead and get into it.
Uh,
Danny Stone joins me next right here on the H and M Trucking Podcast from Omaha Nebraska to whatever lane you're driving.
This is the H and M Trucking podcast,
your host,
Marcus Bridges,
(09:08):
H and M Trucking podcast.
As always,
we've got retired H and M driver,
Danny Stone.
Denny,
as always,
man.
Thank you so much for being here.
Oh,
you're welcome.
Thanks for having me.
We're talking about hydrogen fueled trucks today and,
uh off the top there,
I read,
uh,
what I will call a press release at best,
(09:29):
uh from Nicola now,
just because it didn't come out and we didn't have the,
uh,
the Nicola site.
It was actually shared on Clean trucking.com.
Uh I did do a little research and yeah,
this is just a press release that we just read.
So that's kind of the,
the shiny side of what's going on with Nicola right now,
but I was reading a few articles over at Freight waves.com.
(09:52):
I sent them to you as well.
Uh Our good buddy Alan Adler has been doing some great coverage of this whole hydrogen onset.
And well,
it stands to reason that Nicola,
the company is very excited about what they've got in the works.
There are a few things that pop up in Allen's articles that,
uh,
give me pause and I guess I just wanna start out talking about some of the hurdles that,
(10:18):
uh,
that hydrogen is,
is facing right now and,
and a lot of this comes from Alan's article that's titled Hydrogen's Newsy Week Skips over Underlying Challenges.
And the title right there will tell you that.
Yeah,
there was a lot of good news that came out about hydrogen and then there was one big long article that Allen wrote about all of the things that might present problems and I've just kind of listed them out here.
(10:41):
I want to get your thoughts,
Denny.
Um,
before we jump into,
to my list of things,
what are just some of your general thoughts after reading through those articles and kind of familiarizing yourself with the,
uh,
the,
I guess the news cycle of hydrogen trucks right now.
Well,
I don't know if,
if the infrastructure catches up with it then maybe it could be a good thing.
(11:05):
But for instance,
I remember driving through California and Oregon and I would see these nice,
you know,
these were the electric recharging stations is what I'm referring to and they'd have a nice hedge or a beautiful fence or something behind them in a whole bunch of charging stations behind that is a diesel powered generator.
(11:28):
And one of the things I read is for this Ontario operation,
for the refueling station,
they're bringing it in with diesel powered trucks.
So,
you know,
are we really doing any good?
Is it,
is it,
I don't know,
it seemed like maybe it would be fine for a local routes to,
I'm gonna say UPS if UPS wanted to fuel their delivery trucks with hydrogen,
(11:53):
then yeah,
they're gonna go out,
put in so many miles or hours or however it's measured and then they're gonna come back to base where they could have the station.
But for OTR drivers that are driving from,
you know,
North Carolina to California,
I don't think it's practical.
I'm not sure it ever will be unless they get this stuff in every truck stop.
And that's,
(12:14):
it's doubtful if it happens and if it does,
it's gonna take quite a bit of time.
Another thing I'm worried about is the,
the glowing picture they,
you know,
quote so many miles that you can go on this.
Let me see.
Uh,
I,
I took some notes here.
They say about 400 miles depending on the destination.
All right.
Well,
say you leave Los Angeles,
(12:34):
you,
first of all got city gridlock traffic,
you're stop and go and stop and go and stop and go and every time you have to get that truck going again,
you're using more fuel than just cruising down the highway.
Then you gotta climb the grapevine.
Then you got to come down the grapevine,
which both of which are gonna take more fuel than your average flat driving mile.
So I'm assuming they're not calculating all this into their 400 mile estimation.
(13:00):
So,
these are my concerns.
I reached out to a few of my trucker friends and I guess the best one that sums it up to me,
that made me chuckle was my buddy Tim from North Carolina.
He said,
I don't want to drive around with a bomb strapped to my butt is something that's crossed my mind a few times.
Uh Hydrogen is quite volatile and yeah,
(13:22):
I,
I would think AAA poorly placed impact could make a really big explosion.
I mean,
we,
you know,
you don't hear the term hydrogen much without the word bomb attached to it.
So I,
I am a little bit nervous about that too and,
and it sounds like your buddy Tim.
Uh that might be something that's in the forefront of his mind as a driver.
(13:45):
Maybe the first thing he thinks of before any of the rest of this stuff we're gonna talk about.
That's,
that's one of the first things.
Um,
like I say,
if they get the bugs worked out maybe,
but at this point,
I don't think they're anywhere near ready and it sounds like they're starting to crank out trucks with this,
this capability now.
Or this engine,
(14:05):
whatever it is.
Right.
It does.
It seem,
it sounds like they have about 1000 trucks out there right now that are,
that are capable of doing this.
And,
you know,
we talked about back when we talked about electric trucks and automated trucks.
One of the biggest issues was you got the cart before the horse here,
we got all these trucks out on the road that you're testing,
but you don't have the infrastructure to support it.
(14:27):
And with the hydrogen trucks,
it sounds like to me,
they might be attempting to roll out a little bit more infrastructure,
but there's all these problems that kind of just move the problem around.
Like you were talking about,
they're bussing in all this hydrogen to make sure that they can supply these fueling stations with diesel trucks that does not make our,
(14:49):
as they call it the well to wheel uh cost of this fuel good at all.
In fact,
it makes it really expensive.
And furthermore,
we're not solving into that.
I'm gonna jump in here because one of the things I read in one of the articles you said,
quote,
filling a truck could cost $1800 in hydrogen.
(15:11):
The current diesel price is around $4 a gallon.
That's about a third of that.
Right?
And you're only getting 400 miles out of that 1800 if you're driving on flat ground and not having to climb any hills or sit in gridlock traffic like you already said.
And,
and actually I wrote this question down when I read that exact same excerpt from that article.
(15:31):
What is the most that you can ever remember spending to fill up your truck during your driving career?
Or,
or is there an estimate?
Maybe that it's gonna hate me for this,
but I never paid attention because he was paying for it.
But that's understandable.
Right.
You guys have fuel solutions worked in,
you were required to fuel at certain places at certain times,
(15:54):
I assume.
So.
Uh,
but nowhere near 1800 bucks,
I would assume.
I mean,
that just sounds astronomical.
I've heard a couple of drivers.
No,
you got,
I mean,
do the math.
You basically,
most trucks are gonna have around 100 gallon tanks.
You got two of them.
So if it's,
you know,
404 100 gallons,
two,
you know,
uh,
$4 a gallon,
(16:15):
I mean,
um,
then you're looking at,
what,
800 bucks,
right?
And I think the worst I've ever heard a driver on this podcast tell me was 1000.
And that was when diesel prices were so outrageous.
I mean,
they've come back to earth a little bit but,
you know,
there are still some places out there like the state of California where you might still be looking at six bucks a gallon and still,
(16:37):
even with that outrageous price,
you're not getting close to 1800 bucks.
And you're definitely getting more than 400 miles out of it.
So that is,
that is a big one.
I mean,
cost was one of the very first things that I put on my list of challenges.
Um We're looking at $36 per kilogram of hydrogen fuel right now.
(16:59):
Uh I don't understand why they had to do it by the kilogram instead of by the gallon.
Uh We're,
you know,
we're not on this metric system over here in the United States.
So this always dumb ass truckers can't figure it out.
And our US dumb ass podcast host too,
Denny because I was thinking about doing the math and I thought,
you know what,
rather than do the math,
(17:20):
we're just gonna talk about what the prices are because I'm gonna get it wrong trying to convert gallons to kilograms and vice versa.
Oh,
I've had,
I've had uh loads that I got away from there.
I went,
man,
this,
this feels a lot heavier than that.
I go back and look at my bill of lading and it's 10 kg and I got a conversion thing on my phone for that very reason.
(17:41):
Really?
Did you have to turn around there and,
and offload some or did you end up having to take it heavy?
How did that work out?
I don't know that it was ever overweight,
but I just know you drive a truck for a while,
you know how it feels and how it pulls and you pull away from there thinking you're,
you know,
you got a light load and all of a sudden it's like,
oh,
wait a minute,
something's wrong.
Do I have my breaks locked up and,
(18:03):
you know,
you go back and look and I didn't have to turn around and go back,
but I did have to make adjustments on my tandems to make sure I was legal and things like that.
But yeah,
that's kind of sneaky to put it in kilograms and you think,
oh,
I got a light load,
man.
I'll be,
I'll be hoping over these mountains and nothing flat.
No,
it wasn't that way.
No,
it's ok.
(18:24):
That's,
that's one of the beauties of what we get to do here is your experience is so valuable because you,
you've been out there and,
and you've dealt with some of the difficulties that just a regular diesel powered truck that we've been driving for.
God knows how many years uh can,
can put out there in front of you.
And now we're talking about this new technology that once again,
(18:46):
this is a recurring theme.
It's just not quite well enough sussed out yet for it to be rolled out and have a bunch of fleets,
uh get excited about it.
Now,
one part here,
we talked about the company Hyla in the Open,
uh which has plans for nine more hydrogen fuel outlets by mid 2024.
(19:07):
And I understand that the company wants to expand,
uh which also,
like I said earlier,
it kind of relates to the whole infrastructure thing.
Hey,
let's get the fueling stations out there before we get a bunch of trucks on the road.
So we can actually keep these things rolling.
However,
with Nicholas's money troubles that we also discussed in the open,
they've been threatened twice now by the NASDAQ to be delisted because their stock price is falling so low.
(19:32):
It makes me wonder if this is even feasible or an attainable goal for the company.
First Element Fuels.
According to uh Allen's article over at freight waves expected over 50,000 hydrogen powered vehicles to already be on the road.
Uh But right now they're more like 15,000.
So this is where I did do some math,
Denny.
So,
excuse me,
(19:52):
if I screwed it up,
it was never my strong suit,
but only having 30% of your estimate means that your sales forecasts are probably in the neighborhood of 70% too high,
which for me,
seems like a recipe for a company to sink beneath the tide if nickel is having money problems and it's been threatened by the NASDAQ with delisting.
(20:13):
Can we really expect them to roll out nine more filling outlets if they do clear that hurdle,
can we expect them to sell enough hydrogen to stay afloat?
It just none of these things really add up to me at this point?
It once again is a little bit of a cart before the horse or the tail wagging the dog situation if you will.
(20:34):
Yeah.
And you know,
something that comes to mind talking about setting up the infrastructure and getting all the truck stops on board.
Um,
idle,
air,
idle,
air was a great concept when they started it.
I mean,
you pull your truck in,
you put this thing in your window,
you had to have an adapter depending on what kind of truck you had.
But it gave you air conditioning and heat and cable TV,
(20:54):
and all this stuff and you paid so much.
Well,
once everybody started streaming and being able to download their own,
they didn't need the cable TV.
And most of the trucks now are,
you know,
they,
they have their own air conditioning.
You,
you've got the,
you know,
you've got the inverter so you didn't need shore power and all these things that were that idle air provided.
(21:15):
So they put in all of this infrastructure and then nobody used it or very few used it.
So I imagine the truck stops.
If they're going to have any kind of investment in this thing,
they're gonna be reluctant after that deal.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And there's probably,
there's going to be some,
uh,
you know,
some glad handing going around here.
(21:36):
And I can imagine just to get into some of these bigger truck stops like your loves and your flying J or whatever the case may be,
there's going to have to be a significant discount to them to purchase the fuel to then turn around and sell to the,
the,
the drivers or the fleets.
And again,
I'm,
I'm just seeing money problems all over the board here and look,
(22:01):
it's no,
it's no slim expense.
I mean,
we did read in one of these articles too that Nicola purchased five,
basically hydrogen producing electrolyzers is what they call them that cost him $30 million.06 million bucks apiece for these things.
And as we sit right now,
(22:22):
even if they're up and running,
you're not turning a profit on those,
there's just no way that you're going to out,
out,
earn that expenditure within.
I,
I mean,
who knows it?
It seems like at this point I would say like 10 years that seems about right.
But who knows?
Everything is with technology moves so fast,
(22:42):
it's exponential.
Uh You know,
I didn't think that we would be sitting here having a video conversation in 2024 like we are,
uh with,
you know,
you down in Texas and me up in Oregon,
back in even 2015.
That sounded like a,
a complete dream.
Uh So maybe they'll surprise me here,
but you gotta have enough money in your pocket to be able to spend enough money to make that go forward.
(23:08):
And right now it's just,
it doesn't look like they have that.
And another thing that comes up here when you talk about cost,
it's not only cost to the companies that are producing this technology.
Let's talk about fleet costs for a minute.
Allen wrote that the current estimates show that hydrogen trucks will cost more than even battery powered electric vehicles to maintain.
(23:29):
Which if you're talking about a hurdle at like a Tesla or a,
a Toyota Prius or any of these electric vehicles.
One of the biggest things that owners find is that,
you know,
58 years down the road,
they've got to replace batteries and those things are astronomically expensive.
It's not just like taking your rig in and having a lube,
oil and filter job done on it.
(23:50):
It will set you back thousands and thousands of dollars.
And when you're purchasing a vehicle for,
let's say,
you know,
a four wheeler electrical or electric vehicle like a Tesla,
you're not thinking I'm gonna spend 80 grand on this vehicle and then in eight years,
I'm gonna need to spend 12 grand more on top of it just to keep the thing on the road.
(24:11):
Well,
let's inflate that when we talk about trucking fleets.
Imagine how much more it costs to maintain the electric batteries in a heavy duty truck.
Well,
inflate that more because it costs more to service a hydrogen vehicle.
And the other number that really popped off the screen at me,
Denny was 80% up time is what they're estimating for these vehicles.
(24:32):
That means 20% of the vehicle's life it's gonna spend in the shop as a guy who drove,
uh,
you know,
heavy duty diesel vehicles.
How does 80% uptime sound to you?
Does that sound like,
uh,
it's gonna crack the,
crack the nut or is that down?
Way too much?
Sounds like they need to use it for local fleets that way they can,
(24:56):
you know,
they can slip into a different truck.
Uh,
the drivers can keep doing their job and they can just build that into the equation.
I just don't see how this is gonna work for a long haul trucking.
Uh,
at least in the foreseeable future.
Same thing with the electrics.
It could be either one,
the hydrogen or the electric could conceivably work for local deliveries,
(25:19):
you know,
delivering for UPS or,
or,
you know,
servicing the grocery stores in a certain region,
things like that where you go out and you come back to the same place every day that could work.
But anybody that's gonna be out for days or weeks or months at a time,
it's just,
it's not gonna happen,
at least not anytime in the foreseeable future.
(25:41):
You know,
the powers that be may force us into that as an industry which it looks like they're trying to do,
they're gonna force us into doing something like that.
But I mean,
you're gonna have to set up like,
say H and M would have to set up terminals,
substation terminals across the country just so they could keep this freight moving so that,
you know,
a driver could get out of truck number 908 and get into truck number 1803 and continue driving back into that trailer.
(26:09):
He's hauling and move on down the road like pony Express kinda did,
but it just seems like a real pain in the ass to me.
Well,
and let's not forget the upfront cost of these vehicles because what you're saying there,
if you're gonna slip seat,
your drivers,
you probably need some extra trucks.
You got 100 drivers,
maybe you need 100 and 20 trucks.
These things cost half a million bucks coming off the line that's significantly more expensive than a new Volvo or a new freight line or Cascadia.
(26:35):
And if you have to have so many more of them,
it just again,
cost,
I think the reason we talk about this kind of off the top here and,
and it's,
it's such a big issue that we're going to spend a lot of time talking about is because it's not just the company spending the money.
As I said,
it's the fleets that are going to be just racked by these uh,
(26:55):
maintenance costs and by the upfront costs.
So there are a lot of fleets that are already just kind of throwing their hands up and saying,
look not now and not any time soon.
There's got to be a lot more that comes to fruition before we can ever even consider this if we want to stay profitable and be able to pay our drivers.
You know,
we talked about the,
uh,
the logistics of it,
(27:16):
moving the fuel with diesel powered trucks.
That's a huge one,
another one.
Nicola has seen four leaders of the division come and go in the last three years now.
I don't stay up with corporate news very often.
Um,
but I can tell you right now that if Amazon had gone through four CEO s of their,
(27:37):
uh,
of their web services division in the last three years,
you would know about it and the stock price would reflect it.
And it makes me wonder somebody from the outside looking in Denny.
Um,
are these people resigning because they feel they can't meet the company's expectations because all of these guys have stepped down or are they being offered the abi ability to save face and resign when really the company decided to terminate them?
(28:02):
Because they're failing at their job?
Either way,
it doesn't look good because it looks like you've set really lofty goals and those lofty goals might outpace any one person's ability to actually achieve those goals.
And therefore you've got a trail of executives in your wake and let's not forget,
you don't just fire an executive that makes $600,000 a year.
(28:24):
Each one of these guys got paid out in excess of a million dollars,
not only for,
you know,
terminating their contract early,
but also for the benefits that they receive and things like stock options and health insurance and all the rest of it.
It just kind of seems like a money pit right now and I guess if there's some do-gooder out there that just want to throw money at it until it,
(28:47):
it works great.
But I don't know that making a profitable company out of this is something that we could even do at this point in time.
Everybody from the fleets all the way up to the manufacturers and the people that are supplying the fuel seem to just be shelling out hundreds of millions of dollars right now and they're not really earning a profit to back that up.
(29:08):
Yeah.
Can't argue with that.
I,
I,
it's,
it's just,
it's very strange to me and,
and I,
I hope,
you know,
listen,
I'm not a guy that hates the planet or anything like that.
I love going outdoors.
I'm an avid outdoorsman.
I like to hunt.
Uh,
I'm not so good at fishing,
but I really do enjoy it.
And I get the reason that we,
we do all of these things,
(29:29):
but it's almost like the planning phase isn't long enough.
Like maybe they,
they get so excited about the,
the,
what is it that,
uh,
Jeff Goldblum says in Jurassic Park,
you got so caught up with thinking about whether or not you could,
you never stop to consider whether or not you should and,
(29:50):
and that kind of feels like what we're dealing with here just based on the drivers that you've spoken to because you said you reached out to some of your friends that are drivers.
Do you think that this could,
let's say we're forced,
I'm going to put us in a hypothetical situation here.
We're forced by government legislation to everybody's got to get into a hydrogen truck by 2030 or,
(30:11):
or,
or some type of zero emission vehicle.
It doesn't have to be hydrogen.
But let's say they decide that that's the date.
How many drivers that have sworn by diesel for all these years do you think are gonna exit the market?
The employment market just based on that legislation?
I,
is that a thing that,
that is,
uh,
a possibility or do you think these drivers would roll with the punches and,
(30:35):
and just get in one and figure it out?
Well,
my buddy David,
who,
he lives in Myrtle Beach and is very opinionated.
Um,
he was,
he was,
that's what he talked about was,
was the price of the stuff.
And I don't know,
I,
I think he would be one of those that would stick it out in a diesel truck as long as he possibly could.
(31:01):
And then when you just couldn't anymore,
he,
that's when he would retire.
Um,
I just,
I don't see him going to,
to that,
uh,
some others might,
I mean,
I think it would a lot of time depend on the age of the trucker.
I mean,
if you're young and you got a family support and this is your career,
this is what you're trained in.
You don't really have a backup,
then you kinda gotta go with what's thrown at you.
(31:23):
But guys that have been in it for a few years,
they might find a more graceful way to get out and choose to do that because it doesn't make sense,
especially if you're a,
if you're an owner operator,
you're gonna be paying that fuel cost,
right?
Yeah,
that's a huge one.
And I,
I wonder to,
you know,
obviously,
not everybody has the ability to just bail out and go do something else,
(31:45):
but maybe some of these guys start to take uh different CD L jobs.
You know,
one thing that actually kind of popped up that I totally forgot to mention earlier is waste management services um running these types of vehicles like ups a lot like you were saying that that really does make sense and,
and in the waste management sphere,
which is already uh uh a kind of an industry that struggles with trying to keep things green and trying to be uh environmentally friendly.
(32:14):
This could be a big leg up for them and also an ability to test this out over the long term.
I feel like a lot of the,
the testing that we get right now is,
well,
it worked for six months.
Let's get it on the docket for Congress to talk about.
That ain't gonna work.
We're gonna make all these laws around things that are going to change in the long term.
And we're just checking to see.
(32:35):
Well,
it,
it ran just fine from Ontario,
California to the port of Oakland.
That's all well and good.
But that is a blip on the map as far as mileage and what we're talking about with most of these,
uh,
you know,
long haul companies.
So I,
I guess I'm one of those people that sits here and goes,
look,
this is a cool idea and if we could snap our fingers and make it all work and everybody got to be right at the same level that they were making the same money or more,
(33:04):
uh,
fleets were not caused to just sink because of the upfront cost.
It would be great.
I think we're a long way from that.
Danny.
I think we might be more than a decade out.
Uh,
at least from even being able to show what it is that we have to prepare for.
And that's where I,
I mean,
I was gonna say,
(33:24):
why,
why do they throw this on the,
the trucking industry?
I mean,
if they want to make these changes,
like you said,
why don't we do municipal,
municipal stuff?
Why don't they put freight trains on this stuff.
Why don't they put sails on boats again?
Maybe have some kind of engine as a backup in case there's no wind but sales work for hundreds of thousands of years.
(33:46):
Why don't we go back to that?
That's about as green as you can get.
Yep,
it is.
And it makes me wonder if it's almost the,
these types of things happen.
They penalize certain industries because industries have been so successful.
Let's not joke with each other here.
Uh If it wasn't for the trucking industry,
this company or this whole country would come to a screeching halt within,
(34:09):
I mean days.
You're talking about empty store shelves within a week.
And uh when you know,
people always talk about what if the electrical grid goes down?
What if we just ran out of diesel?
All right,
if that happened,
this whole country is mad max in 10 days tops and you wouldn't even have to run out of diesel,
run out of death and the trucks will shut down.
(34:31):
There you go.
Exactly.
And so,
so what happened?
I mean,
can we produce enough hydrogen to even sustain the entire trucking industry?
I think that we're,
I say we're a decade off from knowing the things that we need to know.
We might be 50 years from being able to even have the capacity to serve more than a few 1000 of these things.
So,
at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy and I'll take that risk.
(34:56):
Is it possible that the,
the people in power now are not in the oil and petrol industry and they're trying to find a way to make their fast buck.
So they're pushing everything into something else.
I,
I don't think that's a,
that's,
I won't even look at that as a conspiracy theory.
Danny,
I think we've seen enough proof over the last 5,
(35:18):
10 years of politicians,
um,
trading stocks uh on what certainly looks like on the surface insider trading.
If you compare some of these,
uh you know,
Nancy Pelosi is an example,
I'll use,
she trades at a more successful rate than Warren Buffett,
who's the most successful trader of all time.
That tells me that she's got to maintain that lifestyle on a senator's salary.
(35:43):
You don't,
you start to get in bed with all sorts of different companies,
whether it be tech or,
or fossil fuels and,
and you know,
that she only stayed with the fossil fuels or I shouldn't say just she,
there's a lot of politicians out there that are guilty of this on both sides of the aisle.
But you get in bed with these companies and you ride that wave until it's time for legislation to change and then you pull all your money out,
(36:08):
you take your profits and those stocks that you used to support sink while the ones that you've already bought up because you knew new legislation was coming.
Right.
And you just continue to make money,
hand over fist.
Uh,
you know,
we could do a complete full podcast on my thoughts of uh politicians being able to trade stocks.
(36:28):
Um,
I know that they make it public and their trading has to be public,
but we,
the consumer don't see tho those reports until some like 45 days after those trades are made.
So even if you're trying to follow those people,
chances are you're gonna end up having to spend a lot more than what they did to get the same amount of stock and your profits are gonna be a sliver of what theirs are.
(36:51):
And that's why I don't say,
I think it's a conspiracy theory.
I think it's proven,
I think it's going on uh the,
the politicians in place,
however many of them there are,
are just making sweetheart deals for the companies that they're invested in so that they can go live on an island when this is all said and done.
However,
I think that some of them are so successful that they won't leave.
(37:15):
And that's one of the reasons we got a bunch of 8090 year old people that are,
are,
are living out their golden years in Congress or in the Senate because why would I go anywhere?
I'm making generational wealth by just slipping a couple things here and there into different bills that are getting passed through and the companies that I'm riding are,
(37:36):
are riding with me and we're all making money.
Uh,
but it's the little guy that suffers it when,
when that all trickles down.
Look at the truck driver,
look at what they're going through because their rates aren't going up.
We've talked on this podcast about the freight market over the last year or so and we all know that there's a lot of sweat under the collar of a lot of companies.
I mean,
(37:56):
so many companies have shut down recently,
uh just over the last couple of years due to this market.
So we might have to get into that at a later date.
Denny where we do uh like a conspiracy podcast because again,
I think we should come up with a different word because conspiracy just has such a negative connotation.
(38:16):
I think what you're presenting there is,
is factually correct.
I think it's anything but a conspiracy at this point,
we could do that sometime.
I,
I bet David would have a bunch of fun with that one.
Hey,
I love it,
man.
We'll get,
we'll get him on here and talk to him about it.
Uh We're running up against the clock button ready.
(38:37):
We'll put that on our audio ninja mic.
I don't try to keep up with those live,
especially when I get a seven second delay,
man.
Uh It's funny the old seven second delay,
you know,
when I was uh live on the air,
we had a nine second delay and it only gave us three solid three second dumps.
And for those of you that are,
are kind of scratching your head.
(38:58):
Uh A lot of radio shows that you listen to live out there on the uh terrestrial radio stations will be delayed in case somebody drops a crispy F bomb on the air.
Ever since Janet Jackson uh was exposed by uh by Justin Timberlake at that Super Bowl halftime show,
the final from the FCFCC for saying,
or doing something on the air that isn't allowed skyrocketed and stations will lose their licenses for that type of thing.
(39:24):
So you might think you're listening live,
but you're listening to just a slight delay and that just covers the radio station's ass,
you know,
do you ever have any,
uh any instances where you,
uh almost got pulled off the air for anything that shouldn't have gone over,
Danny?
I didn't.
No.
Um We did have the seven second delay and there was some kind of recorded thing that said you can't talk like that on our radio station that covered that seven seconds and you just hear this out of the blue.
(39:54):
Wonder what the heck was that?
Uh That's great and I shouldn't even bring it up.
Y'all can probably Google it and find it.
But uh way back when Howard Stern had the largest find in radio broadcast history for a joke,
he told that,
uh,
well,
it became the largest because the FCC decided to find every radio station that aired it and he was the most syndicated show at the time,
(40:18):
I'm sure.
Yeah.
Oh,
yeah.
Yeah,
I'll tell you before you look it up.
It's pretty tasteless.
Oh,
I,
I imagine.
I mean,
and,
and hey,
it's,
that's the kind of radio that I got into and fell in love with.
And Howard Stern was a big part of it.
Um,
our delay was funny because once we used all of it,
if you,
if you were Savvy and you were listening,
(40:40):
you could tell that we had used all of the delay because our voices slowed down ever so slightly.
Well,
that nine seconds built back up because we,
we,
we're not comfortable without it.
And,
you know,
we,
we took a lot of live phone calls and those stopped dead because a live phone call.
If you don't have a phone screener,
(41:00):
you can't guarantee who's even gonna be on the other line there.
And,
uh,
a lot of fun.
I,
you know,
Denny and I are definitely gonna spend some time on this podcast in the future,
reminiscing about our times on the radio waves because,
uh,
if you're anything like me,
it was,
it was one of the most fun times in my life and I,
I enjoyed it and it really did shape me as a broadcaster.
(41:20):
Uh,
but we have a few freedoms here on this podcast that we didn't have to worry that we never had while I was on the radio.
And I,
I always take it back to when,
uh Eve Essy head of hr at H and M dropped the first ever F bomb on this podcast.
And I told her,
Eve,
I said,
Eve,
you've opened the floodgates because if the hr lady's gonna come on here and do it,
(41:42):
there ain't no way you're gonna be stopping any of the rest of these guys.
So I thought it'd come from me.
You never do.
But hey,
uh,
she's had a lot of fun on this podcast and we appreciate all the work that she's done.
Um This has been a great conversation,
Denny,
thanks for coming in here and talking about it.
We're gonna go ahead and move on to,
uh to our next segment now,
(42:03):
but this should be interesting to watch as the months unfold.
Uh,
mid 2024 is not that far away.
Some of these uh companies are saying we're gonna have nine more fueling stations.
You're gonna start to see them out there.
You're also gonna start to see diesel trucks deliver them the hydrogen fuel,
which it seems like an oxymoron in the worst type of way.
(42:24):
But,
uh,
we'll see how it shapes out and we'll keep talking about it as the new breaks.
And again,
I,
I wanna say thanks to Alan Adler over at Freight waves.com for writing these articles.
Um Alan's got a great head on his shoulders for stuff like this.
And you can tell as a journalist that he doesn't get b sed by a lot of,
uh,
press releases that come out and,
(42:44):
and shine positive light where there really is.
None.
So we'll keep an eye on this and,
uh,
we'll bring you any updates as the days roll on.
Ok,
before we jump out of here,
a couple of things to make you aware of the coming up this weekend.
Actually,
this next week,
the first through the 10th is Daytona Bike week.
So you're gonna see a lot of bikes on trailers for these super bikers.
(43:05):
I always hats off.
I give them a honk and a wave when they actually ride their motorcycle to the rally.
But you'll see a lot of trailers and people that aren't accustomed to driving them and especially on the way back,
they'll be tired and possibly hung over.
So,
just be aware,
uh,
the extra innings festival continuing in Tempe the first and the second and M three fest is in Phoenix.
(43:26):
Both of those are real close to each other.
So around Phoenix watch out the first and the second.
Maybe a lot of traffic.
And,
you know,
we're getting to that time of year too where you're gonna see a lot more motorcycles out on the road and just from a safety standpoint,
I imagine being they're hard enough to see in my full size pickup.
I can't imagine that they're any easier to see from the cab of,
of a heavy duty truck.
(43:46):
So,
uh,
you know,
keep your eyes on your mirrors.
Look out for those guys,
especially down around Daytona because there's gonna be a lot of them.
Bike week is no joke down there in Florida.
No,
it's one of the biggest in the nation.
And,
uh,
like I say,
you,
it'll be days in and out.
Um,
and all,
you know,
I 95 I,
75 everything coming down to Florida is gonna,
(44:07):
gonna have em.
So,
just watch out,
keep your eyes out.
Thanks for bringing that to us.
Denny.
Let's get to the next bit.
Denny.
Uh,
you and I talked a little bit off the air after that last segment and,
um,
there's not a lot of super exciting parts about hydrogen powered trucks and we did go on,
(44:30):
I feel like we did a really good job covering it,
but I kind of want to steer the wheels away from,
uh,
the whole hum.
That is that type of news.
And as part of the show,
I wanna learn as much about you as I possibly can,
whether it be from your broadcasting career or your trucking career,
your military service,
anything,
uh,
that there is to learn about the person that is Denny Stone.
(44:52):
So I just asked you to come with a story and I've got no idea where this is going and I can't wait to hear what kind of story we're gonna have today during Denny's story time.
So the floor is yours,
my friend,
it can be dangerous.
You know,
you give me free reign like that.
Uh Well,
I thought about it and asked Dawn my wife and of course she suggested talking about Gilly because there's so many stories about Gilly.
(45:16):
But you,
you said me.
So here we go.
Um It's been a number of years ago.
I was with H and M at the time and uh I got,
got to run to Spokane,
which excited me because first of all,
it was,
it was good miles.
And my mother,
(45:36):
when she was still with us,
lived in Cola,
which is just east of Spokane.
So it gave me a chance to,
you know,
if I could make good time,
I could get to see my mom.
So from Wichita to Spokane is uh 1650 maybe 1700 miles.
I don't remember what they paid me for.
It's been so long ago,
but it's a good run.
It's good miles.
(45:56):
And I also had plenty of time which some drivers,
they don't like that because they wanna just go,
go,
go,
go,
go make money all the time.
I'm like,
you know,
life's too short,
enjoy it.
So I had plenty of time.
Actually,
it wasn't too much out of route.
I could hit my fuel stops.
So I,
I took a different route.
(46:17):
Uh I had three stops in this run.
I stopped in Wichita,
Wichita,
Kansas and I picked up they weren't bobcats but they were like bobcats.
You know,
the little bulldozer looking thing where it raises over the cab.
You know what I'm talking about?
Like I said,
I don't think it was John Deere either.
It might have been,
but it was that kind of thing and there was only four of them.
So I knew,
you know,
I'm not gonna spend a lot of time at warehouses,
(46:38):
getting unloaded or anything.
Had four of them.
So my first stop was in Casper Wyoming.
So from Wichita to Casper Wyoming and then from there,
from Casper to Bozeman,
that was,
that was what I was pumped about because I,
I had the time I took the alternate route,
I went up through West Yellowstone,
up through Du Bois and I mean,
(47:00):
just a beautiful run.
You don't often get to drive that route.
So I was excited about that.
At one point along there,
I thought there was a couple of coyotes on the shoulder of the road and I'm looking,
I'm looking at it.
I got close.
They didn't move,
they sat there,
they were just mere feet yards from my truck going by at highway speed.
No,
it was two wolves.
Oh,
(47:20):
wow.
That's a little bit chilling.
That was cool.
Well,
you're talking about God's country up there too,
but when you see something like a Wolff,
an apex predator like that.
It really does kind of throw you out of your mindset.
Just appreciating the beauty to all of a sudden thinking,
man.
That's a,
that's a stone cold killer standing on the side of the road right there just sitting there watching the trucks go by or the truck.
(47:46):
I was the only big one on the road at the time,
but that was,
that was a beautiful drive.
I've only driven in all the years and all the miles.
I only drove the west side of Yellowstone two times and that was one of them.
So anyway,
my first stop was Caspar.
Then Bozeman.
Then,
then I got up to,
uh,
I did get up there the day before.
Um,
fairly early in the day.
(48:07):
I think it was around noon time.
I got,
got to post falls.
There's a couple of truck stops there and I don't remember.
It's either flying area to loves.
I stopped at,
but my mother came over and met me and we spent the afternoon and had a good dinner and had a good visit next morning.
I went on over to Spokane to drop the last of this load.
So I get over there,
(48:27):
they unloaded it and I went to shut my doors and I'm like,
whoa,
whoa,
whoa,
whoa,
whoa,
wait a minute.
I don't have any more stops.
There's another one of these bobcat things in here.
He showed me his bit of lady,
dude.
We only ordered 10,
no.
But I mean,
each stop,
I mean,
(48:47):
these things are not cheap,
I'm sure.
So each stop,
you know,
I have a bill of lading.
They sign off on it.
I close my doors.
I head off.
Well,
I guess I should have counted because Casper Wyoming was supposed to get two of them.
Oh,
no.
They only took one from Spokane Washington back to Casper Wyoming is,
(49:08):
I just looked it up 866 miles.
It's a long way.
Can't drive 866 miles legally in one day.
So I had to make a very awkward phone call.
What are we gonna do?
And how did you figure it out?
(49:30):
Well,
I was,
I felt horrible because it obviously I wasn't diligent enough.
I didn't check everything.
I,
you know,
I was like,
man,
don't fire me,
please.
You know,
that's kind of what I was thinking.
I'm like,
please don't fire me.
Can we work this out?
I'm like,
I,
I volunteered to,
to pay for the fuel.
They wouldn't hear of it.
You know,
(49:50):
they all said no,
you know,
everybody makes mistakes.
We're not gonna pay you to drive that 866 miles back to Casper,
but we'll take care of the fuel.
That's good enough because I assume 800 miles is uh is not cheap when it comes to fuel.
When,
when you're talking about diesel,
like that would have been just the fact that they didn't pay you for that time already probably kind of stings a little bit.
(50:14):
But saving you that out of pocket,
what,
probably 6,
800 bucks at the absolute minimum was a,
was a pretty big deal.
Yeah.
Figure,
maybe eight miles to the gallon.
800 miles.
That's 100 gallons,
100 gallons at,
you know,
four bucks a pop.
So,
we're looking at quite a bit of money and I didn't feel right.
You know,
I wanted to pay for that because that was my mistake.
(50:36):
But they wouldn't let me,
um,
like I say,
I didn't,
I didn't make the money for the trip back and of course,
I lost miles that I could have been driving after that route.
Uh,
but yeah,
that was,
that was Denny's bad.
So,
well,
I didn't think there myself in the butt story for you.
(50:57):
Right.
You come in here with a story that's got a lesson involved to just be diligent and count all of your,
uh,
count all your deliveries and everything because you'd think that with some,
a piece of equipment that expensive on the trailer that the receiver is going to be very diligent.
But I guess they have,
they have those days just like we do and I don't think they had even contacted anybody to go.
(51:19):
Whoa,
wait a minute,
we didn't get both of our,
you know,
you,
I don't know.
I,
I sure would have been checking if I paid for those things.
But me too.
Anyway.
Um,
so it was all ok in the end,
I guess.
But yeah,
my beautiful ride out there turned into a pretty stressful ride on the way back because I was trying to get it back and get it back to him and,
(51:40):
you know,
I,
I don't often make terrible mistakes.
Everybody does but makes mistakes.
But yeah,
that one,
that one was a tough one.
I think it's,
I might be wrong with my roads here,
but you mentioned Post Falls.
Idaho.
Uh,
one of the most beautiful bridge over canyon stretches that I've ever been on is at Post Falls and I think it's just off of interstate 84 if I'm not mistaken,
(52:08):
uh Big chasm,
Giant Canyon and a bridge that goes right over the top of it.
And multiple times that I've been on that bridge headed into Post Falls,
there's been people free ba or free jumping,
whatever they call it a base jumping off of there.
I don't know why I said free.
I believe you're thinking of Idaho Falls.
Oh,
is it Idaho Falls?
Ok.
I'm sorry,
(52:28):
then.
Yes.
Uh,
but still an amazing area out there.
I feel like Idaho and that kind of eastern Washington part of the Pacific Northwest is underappreciated.
Um,
you know,
Spokane,
one of my favorite drives was to go up through Montana through Missoula and then cross over into Idaho and uh,
(52:49):
you go across a couple of passes and you come,
come across,
you take a bend and then you're looking at,
you're looking down at one of the most beautiful lakes you'll ever see in your life.
When you're coming into Cour Lane.
It's just gorgeous.
I mean,
it's,
that was one,
not just because my mother lived there,
but just because of the scenic beauty.
I love that drive.
That was one of my favorites.
(53:11):
We used to do a lot of uh,
school clothes shopping up in Spokane when I was younger because it was one of the closest population centers to the little mountain town I lived in,
uh,
and we always used to call it uh Spo Compton or Spokane Aan.
There was always a lot of crime going on.
Our parents wouldn't let us run around uh,
much like we wanted to.
But,
you know,
(53:31):
uh I also played in,
uh in Hoop Fest out there in Spokane.
If you're familiar,
they took you to the big town to shop for clothes.
Dad took me to the feed store and I had to try him on to make sure that one leg wasn't three inches shorter than the other one because all they got was factory seconds.
Well,
if I were to tell you,
it's true.
I was in high school with a job earning my own money before I got to go anywhere.
(53:55):
But the feed store to buy clothes.
If I told you that the feed store in Enterprise Oregon didn't have clothes back then.
Would you believe me?
I guess,
you know,
I'm from Texas.
Feed stores have everything.
Yeah,
that's,
I mean,
we always thought it was actually called,
uh,
grain Growers and it's still called Grain growers,
if I'm not mistaken.
Uh,
my dad actually called me probably 68 months ago and said there's an H and M truck parked at grain growers right now.
(54:21):
I said,
well,
go down there and shake the guy's hand,
man.
He knows who I am.
Come on,
talk to him and by the time he got down there it was gone.
But,
yeah,
I couldn't,
we couldn't,
if you wanted clothes to come out of the town that I lived in Denny,
you had to have mom make em.
And I think at that point in time in my life it was just easier to drive the five hours to Spokane and,
(54:41):
uh,
save her fingers on the sewing machine because,
uh,
you know,
I'm not the most fashion forward gentleman out there,
but I,
I was a little bit picky,
you know,
shorts had to hit the knees the whole thing.
So,
uh,
but,
you know,
as I was saying,
fantastic area up there.
Uh,
II,
I really do enjoy Spokane.
I've got a,
uh,
one of my best friends in the world is a dentist up in Spokane and I don't make it up there enough to see him.
(55:05):
The Quarter.
Is that Lake Quarterlane that you were talking about?
Is the lake that you're looking down on when you come in or is that Lake Roosevelt?
Lake Quarterlane?
Uh,
my family used to go out.
Uh,
our,
our one big vacation each year was to,
they,
they rent house boats,
uh,
out on Lake Roosevelt.
They're,
they're relatively affordable and we had a,
(55:26):
you know,
a boat that we took out and we used to go rent a house boat and Lake Roosevelt for those of you that don't know,
is,
is much more a river than it is a lake.
It runs for like 100 miles.
Uh,
it's,
it's a crazy long stretch of water and we used to just drive from beach to beach and each night we would camp on a different beach and then flip her around after four days and head back on the fifth day.
(55:49):
I have some great memories from that area.
And,
uh,
I'm glad you got to make it out there.
You know,
it's,
uh,
it's,
it's a little bit of a stretch from Texas.
It's about as far as you can go northwest.
Uh,
unless you want to go to Seattle.
And who wants to go there?
My sister lives outside of Seattle,
so I'd get to see her when I went out that way.
That's where I had those oysters that were giant.
(56:10):
I've never seen oysters as big as I did.
I think that was Olympia,
I wanna say.
But she took me somewhere and they were like chicken thighs.
Like,
no,
I've never had to take a knife and fork to a Texas Gulf oyster.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They grow them a little different up there.
Uh,
I think they have to put up with a few more elements out there in the,
uh,
off the coast of the Pacific and in the Puget Sound than what they do,
(56:31):
uh,
down in the Gulf of Texas.
Now,
I'm not very familiar with the Gulf of Texas,
but I do know that the Puget sound is,
is not a friendly place unless the sun is shining.
And I think that happens like seven or eight days a year in Seattle.
So,
you know,
it's a,
it's a tough place,
but I'll tell you there's no place better than seafood.
Uh Somebody,
last time I went out to Omaha,
(56:51):
one of the guys I was at dinner with tried to get me,
hey,
let's have some sushi.
Like,
man,
you didn't just ask me to fly all the way to the Midwest to have sushi when I can go grab it out of the ocean and eat it the same day.
Did you?
I was a little shaky on that.
You can't pay me enough to eat bait.
Thank you very much.
Well,
Denny,
I look forward to as many of these stories as you'll tell us in the future.
(57:14):
Thank you for sharing that one with us,
sorry,
that it turned out like it did.
But I'm glad that it worked out.
And,
uh,
you know,
actually I had one more question for you.
Let's just hypothetically say that that tractor,
the people in Casper didn't want it,
they didn't order it.
You ended up with it on your truck.
What happens to it after that?
Is that your tractor now?
(57:35):
Because I've heard some drivers will get like a pallet of chicken nuggets when they don't have anybody to deliver it to.
And if they've got the freezer space for it,
the,
the carrier just let him take it home.
What would have happened with that if Casper didn't want it?
I don't know about something that expensive.
But yeah,
I've had,
I had,
uh,
gosh,
one time I ended up with,
I think it was three full pallets of those half gallon,
(57:57):
jugs of paste Pican sauce.
I was giving it away right and left.
I finally had to put it in a dumpster because I had another load to pick up.
Nobody else wanted it.
Everybody in the truck stop had some,
um,
other times I've,
I've had,
you know,
like a few cans of something,
you know,
like one can got dented or something and they refused it.
Well,
(58:18):
that there were,
we go to Story City quite a bit and,
uh,
there was a guy there that man,
he just loved getting those,
you know,
cafeteria size cans of beans or something.
So I'd just always take them to him and he took good care of me.
He'd always get me in and out pretty quick.
I don't know how many cans of beans or chili or whatever he wound up with over the years.
(58:38):
But,
you know,
sometimes I'd come home with it.
Um,
but most of the time it rarely happened,
it wasn't often,
uh,
but,
you know,
occasionally something like that does.
Yeah,
we also had a driver on here,
uh,
a while back.
This has been all the way back to the unplugged OTR days.
Uh,
told us that he ended up with a,
(58:58):
I think it was a pallet of pizza rolls.
Totino's pizza rolls.
And he said,
you don't understand how big a pallet is until you stack it full of pizza rolls and send it home with one guy with a family of three.
he's probably still eating pizza rolls to this day.
I don't know what the,
what his diet probably looks like.
But,
uh,
I,
I mean,
(59:18):
I brought a,
a load from,
I was in,
uh,
Virginia,
took a load to Kansas City to a grocery warehouse and there was about not even a half,
a pallet.
There was barely more than one.
It was like 1.5 stacks high of,
of yogurt,
(59:39):
fresh yogurt.
These,
these weren't the ones we ordered,
they ordered different flavors and the guy in the warehouse,
I mean,
we're standing around for like two or three hours while they sort all this out.
The guy on the docks going,
you know,
these idiots are gonna order these flavors tomorrow,
but they wouldn't release it.
They wouldn't take it,
they wouldn't accept it.
They wouldn't let me dump it.
(59:59):
I had to drive all the way back to Virginia with that little bit of yo,
you could have put that yogurt in the back seat of a Toyota easily.
I had to drive all the way back to Virginia.
The company,
I guess had to eat the fuel charge.
I had to lose the,
well,
they paid me for the miles but you know,
it's just some of the crazy stuff you do you see out here on the road,
(01:00:21):
one of my first loads is a solo driver.
Ba back,
way,
way back when I picked up this security load in Los An East Los Angeles,
they had concertina wire around the warehouse and stuff because this was not a good part of town and I'm there in the middle of the night picking up this load.
And when I went to,
to close the doors,
(01:00:42):
they were taking pictures and everything and I closed the door.
I was loaded all the way floor to ceiling,
all the way to the doors with Sony HD TV.
S.
Wow.
Closed it,
put a lock on it,
you know,
uh,
drove it all the way to somewhere in Virginia,
offloaded it.
They told me Ok.
Well,
(01:01:02):
you can drop that trailer here and pick up this other trailer and take that.
Ok,
cool.
Don't have to wait on none.
Look.
So I dropped that one backed into the oven,
pulled the other one out.
They're out there taking pictures.
I'm shutting the doors.
Guess what?
I've got a trailer load of HD.
Sony HD TV.
S,
I'll give you three guesses where they're going east L A,
(01:01:25):
Los Angeles,
California.
Does anybody talk to anybody else?
This is nuts.
Communication.
Be damned.
Denny.
I mean,
just get it on the truck and get it out there.
Who cares if it comes back tomorrow?
They pay me and drive the miles.
I just,
I shake my head and I go,
I quit trying to make sense out of this a long time ago and it probably eases the stress to do.
(01:01:48):
So I imagine just,
you know what my load's my load,
no sense in trying to make sense to me.
Well,
that is gonna wrap it up for us here on episode 49 of the H and M Trucking Podcast,
as I said before,
Denny,
appreciate you sharing that story with us and,
and all the stories and I can't wait to hear all the rest of them because I know that you've got a full rolodex of them and that's just,
(01:02:11):
uh a little bit of what you can look forward to as the H and M Trucking podcast matures.
Uh,
and on that note,
next week,
we got a very special episode planned for you.
It's our 50th episode anniversary and we are going to celebrate.
We've got a bunch of people coming off to uh Pat me and Denny on the back,
which is what we desperately need and deserve.
(01:02:33):
Uh So I can't wait for next week's episode.
As always,
I'm the new guy on the block.
You're the one that deserves this,
but I will take that frozen margarita.
Ok.
Well,
I could do that for you,
Denny Head Northwest,
man.
You'll meet me at some point.
All right,
maybe out there at Yellowstone,
we'll,
we'll uh we'll tame a wolf.
Have a margarita.
It will be a good time out there.
(01:02:54):
We got a plan now.
All right,
everybody.
Thanks for being here and as we always say,
stay fresh cheese bags.
Thank you for listening to the H and M Trucking podcast.
Please leave a review,
subscribe and connect with Marcus over at the H and M trucking social media channels.
(01:03:15):
And if you're considering a job at H and M,
find us at HM trucking.com.
Until next time.
Stay safe and ahead of the curve drivers.
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