#54 - New Regulations for Owner Operators

This week on the H&M Trucking Podcast, we’re discussing some rule changes that could affect the Owner/Operators at H&M Trucking.  We’ll hear first from Owner/Operator for H&M Terry “Smiles” Oatman, who will talk to us about some concerns he has with the new regulations. After that, Marcus and Denny are joined by H&M’s Controller Patty Rupp, who walks us through the changes and potential after effects they may carry.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
What's up everybody and welcome to the H and M Trucking podcast episode 54.
Glad to have you here.
Thanks for taking the time to stop in and click that subscribe button for us today.
As we always say,
that helps us out tremendously.
We greatly appreciate those of you that have already subscribed and are telling your friends to subscribe to this fantastic podcast.

(00:23):
Today's episode is going to talk a little bit about these new regulations that are being tabled in California that stand to greatly affect the ability of owner operators to operate in their current function.
Um It's,
it really looks like what they want to do is just force independent contractors to become employees of the trucking company that they are working for.

(00:49):
Um And there's a lot of legalese that surrounds this.
We're gonna talk to two owner operators from H and MA little bit later here in the episode.
And we're also going to talk to Patty Roop from the H and M front office and she has a lot of great information on this and can help us understand it a little bit.
But I'll be honest with you in my preliminary preparations for this episode,

(01:13):
it doesn't look good and uh at least from the outside looking in as somebody who is adjacent to the industry and not necessarily in it.
Uh This again looks like more red tape that is going to cause harm to the industry rather than help it along.
That is my preliminary take on it.
I'm excited to hear what Patty has to say and what our drivers have to say as well.

(01:36):
So we can help make sense of this.
Uh We don't have any new drivers to welcome to the program today.
No orientation this week at H and M.
However,
Sherry has told me that next week,
we will have a long list of drivers to welcome onto the team.
Uh So that wraps up the intro.
We gotta get moving because we have a lot of stuff going on.
Also a very special segment in this podcast episode.

(01:59):
We're gonna talk to you about Denny's Big Rig Cafe that he's been doing,
uh showing you some recipes and stuff that actually is not Denny's Big Rig Cafe,
that is Bill's Big Rig Cafe and we're going to welcome Bill's brother Ed on the show a little bit later and explain to you why it is that we are calling this Bill's Big Rig Cafe.

(02:19):
So lots of stuff coming up.
Exciting episode.
Don't forget to click,
subscribe,
helps,
you know,
when we put out a new episode,
let's get to the good stuff from Omaha,
Nebraska to whatever lane you're driving.
This is the H and M Trucking Podcast,
your host,
Marcus Bridges.

(02:43):
Next up here on the H and M Trucking Podcast.
I am of course joined by my co-host Denny Stone and I've got H and M owner operator,
Terry smiles Oman on the line with me.
Smiles.
How you doing over there,
man?
Are you smiling right now?
Actually?
Yes,
it's kind of plastered there.
Perfect.
Well,
thank you so much for being here today.

(03:05):
Uh It's been a while since we've had you on the podcast and we're very happy to have you back.
Although our subject matter today might not be as fun as we've,
uh,
as we've talked about in the past.
Um,
it looks like there's some,
uh,
some funny legislation being tabled right now out in California,
uh,
the law is called A B five and it appears that the state wants to enforce this controversial law that aims to reclassify independent contractors as motor carrier employees.

(03:36):
And,
uh,
for,
you know,
we're gonna use some different vocabulary during this obviously,
but independent contractor,
owner,
operator,
one and the same for the intents and purposes of,
of what we're talking about here.
And,
uh,
smiles as an owner operator.
Have you read into this legislation at all?
Have you looked into it?
Are you familiar with it?

(03:57):
Um,
no,
but my brain and my vocabulary has so many contradictions on the terms that were just used in my one statement.
Uh Well,
feel free to correct me.
You are the expert here.
I am just a dude reading words on a page.
So you're reading the words on the page pretty much verbatim based on how I understand California legislators.

(04:20):
Oh,
goodness God.
That just made my head hurt.
Like that's one of those brain teaser ones that you just have to stop and think about like,
how can you be that stupid?
You know,
I,
I'll,
I'll tell a little joke here that might uh bring Terry's thoughts here into a better picture for those of you listening.
So there's a genie on a beach and a guy finds the genie and the genie says,

(04:42):
I'm only gonna grant you one wish.
And the guy says,
OK,
I wanna,
I wanna uh road from here on the coast of California.
I want it to go all the way to Hawaii.
The genie says,
really?
That's,
that's your best wish.
That's all you could come up with.
You only get one man and he says,
fine,
I wanna understand California legislators.
The genie says,
did you want two lanes or four?

(05:05):
I knew right where you were going when you said one wish I knew right where that joke was going.
I was like,
yeah,
I know that one because it's so accurate and it can be used in any context for anything.
And uh,
I mean,
it's really a good starting point.
To where we're at today.
This rule is aiming to make it so that owner operators really aren't a thing anymore if they're connected with the carrier is what I,

(05:28):
what I understand here.
And Danny,
I don't know if is verbatim to your understanding.
Yes.
Um,
they're trying to,
and they did it with Uber and Lyft and Uber and Lyft basically slapped it in their face,
but they were trying to start this with that those systems and anybody who pays any kind of attention to life in general as it's evolved right now with,

(05:52):
understands that Lyft and Uber just taxi services,
right,
where people use their own cars.
Well,
California passed a law that if your company provides a service and you are paying people part of your revenue to do that service,
even if it's with their vehicles that they're deemed employees.

(06:15):
Well,
Uber and Lyft kind of laughed at the California government on that one because Uber and Lyft are nothing more than a software program that provides this service that both the drivers are making income from and passengers are getting a ride from there.

(06:35):
In turn,
California's law completely had no effect on the targeted group.
But it sounds like the reason that this is going to target the owner operators is maybe because the verbiage in this law states that I if you're providing that service using company equipment,
then technically you are,
you should be uh an employee of the company rather than an independent contractor.

(06:59):
Is that correct?
And that's exactly what they're trying to do is they're trying to make it to where in California with the Uber drivers because they are using a company provided application on their phone are being company employees.
That is the verbiage that they're trying to hit and in order to do so,
they have to target owner,

(07:20):
operating truck drivers and everything else because we use equipment of the companies we're normally signed on with.
Right.
But you,
you own the truck,
you don't necessarily own the trailer,
correct.
And H and M prefers that we run their trailers that way.
They know they're newer,
better looking,
better maintenance and whatever whatnot and I respect it.

(07:42):
It makes my life oh my God,
so much easier.
But it is that verbatim stipulation that H and M would like to keep,
that makes it to where California would like to deem me a company driver and make H and M give me company benefits.
So let me ask you this,
Terry,
what went into your decision to become an owner,

(08:04):
operator rather than a company driver.
Well,
honestly,
I've followed my grandfather's footsteps and he was a hero,
my,
my hero growing up,
he always owned his own business or was a truck driver,
owning his own truck.
And it never felt right for me to work for somebody else.
And so when I became skilled and talented in a trade,

(08:27):
I decided that my best option was to own my own business in the trade.
So that I didn't have to answer to somebody who could basically tell me,
hey,
we don't want you here.
And then I had no means of income.
I'd still have my equipment to make my money.
And I first did it with automotive where I'd own the tools and I could go anywhere,

(08:48):
but my hands didn't like the wrenches.
And in turn,
I wound up driving a truck.
Still a good passion,
still something I love turned out to be for the better.
So I didn't beat my body up.
Well,
it sounds like there's,
there's,
you know,
a,
a very good reason that you made this decision because the reason I asked that question to start off is I know it's not an easy decision to make.

(09:10):
You're sitting in a dealership right now,
getting your truck repaired.
I talked to you yesterday and,
uh,
I mean,
you were as worried as anybody else that I've,
that I've heard about the bill that's coming from this truck repair because that's coming out of your pocket man.
And there's paperwork,
there's insurance policies,
there's all sorts of stuff that comes with being an owner,

(09:30):
operator that the company drivers don't normally have to do.
So it's a big decision to make.
And,
and I mean,
from,
from my standpoint,
it sounds like you made the right one.
I,
I want to bring Denny in here real quick.
Um Denny remind me owner operator,
company driver with your time uh at H and M I was a company driver and I had considered numerous times through my career of,

(09:54):
of being an owner operator.
I'll preface this by saying,
I don't think H and M would do this to anybody but there are companies out there that would,
which is why I made the decision years ago and I came close at least twice.
I was in the financing end and then decided,
yeah,
maybe I don't want to do this.

(10:14):
The only way I decided it would,
it would fit for me would be for me to get my own loan,
buy my own truck and then sign on with the company.
That way if,
for some reason,
things didn't work out,
I could take my truck and go somewhere else.
But,
you know,
if you sign on with some of these companies,
they'll let you,
you know,
they,
they,
they'll run you on that lease until you are in the last six months so that there's just enough of a balance left and then they'll park you and tell you there's no freight and let you sit until you're in default and then take the truck back and do it to somebody else with the truck all over.

(10:49):
Universal is known for it.
There's a universal 600,000 miles when these trucks are gonna have major repairs.
That's why these fleets get rid of them at around 400 to 600,000 miles.
And you buy one of those trucks and then they let you run it until they,
you've done all of those major repairs and then they cut you miles and they get the truck back again.

(11:12):
I don't think H and M has or will ever do that if I were to trust the company with that H and M would be the one,
but I'm doing good as a company driver.
So I didn't do that.
But like I said,
the way I,
it was my dream was always to do it.
I have a question.
I mean,

(11:32):
I've been sitting here shaking my head through this discussion.
I read through some of this,
this literature.
OK.
I'm stupid.
I guess what's the purpose of this law?
Is it to protect the driver,
the owner operator?
Is it just something because California likes to legislate shit?
I mean,
what is the purpose of this?
If it's to protect the driver from what I was just talking about happening,

(11:54):
then that may be a good thing.
But I don't know the purpose behind the legislation and the purpose behind the original attempts to control and dictate and regulate it,
revenue,
tax revenue.
What's,
what's the goal of the state of Florida?
I mean,
of the state of California revenue?

(12:16):
I think that that's,
I mean,
that's the only thing that I can make sense of out of it.
You guys is just that this is another way to end up with more tax dollars in the pocket.
But they're doing it specifically because they have a couple of large cities and most large cities,
tax revenue do not cover the income needed to help that city there.

(12:37):
And for they need statewide taxes to help cover those cities.
So to do so they would do something like this where they can get money statewide and make it to where they can put it anywhere they want.
And that's the problem here is,
is you've also got a judge that is,
it seems firmly implanted in the California way of thinking.

(12:59):
I'm gonna read a short excerpt here from the very end of this article.
And by the way,
this article that we are pulling some info from is entitled,
federal judge denies CT a challenge to California A B five.
And you can find that over at transport topics.
Thanks to uh transport topics for putting together such a great article here.
What this says here is that quote,

(13:21):
the state's defendants have never articulated how a motor carrier can possibly satisfy the statute,
including prong B of the ABC test,
which we'll talk about here in a minute and they remain intent on enforcing the law against motor carriers.
They thus continue to threaten irrevocable harm to plaintiffs and the owner operators who have built businesses in reliance on federal law.

(13:45):
So that is the lawyers for uh the,
the California Trucking Association who's fighting this saying you are threatening irrevocable harm to all of our owner operators and the carriers that employ them where the court came back and disagreed directly and said,
quote,
while the jury is out as to whether A B five substantially affects carrier prices,

(14:06):
routes or services,
it does not attempt to do so directly.
Well,
I don't give a damn if they do it directly.
This is our problem with all the legislation that gets passed in this industry is that we shoot first and ask questions later.
Shouldn't there be studies funded on this as to whether or not it does negatively affect carrier prices,

(14:28):
routes or services or the owner operators themselves before we strike this law into uh effectiveness.
I mean,
it,
the right now they're being challenged on the basis of discrimination and the judge just said,
hey,
if it's discriminatory,
we didn't do it on purpose.
That's not an ok excuse in my book.
That sounds like just,

(14:50):
that sounds like a loophole if anything at,
at best,
it sounds like a loophole.
Is that enforceable for carriers that are not based in California?
Can California say?
Ok.
H and M is based in Omaha,
we're gonna make them comply to our law is,
is that,
that's what they want.
Well,
they'll say that you can't run in California if you don't,
that's like clean air compliance just like their clean air compliance.

(15:13):
I mean,
there's got to be a contingency of drivers out there,
Denny to what you just said,
a contingency of drivers to go great,
make the law in California so that I never have to cross the state line again.
I asked a buddy to set up a little mini gift shop at the border selling gerbils because apparently years ago,
you couldn't run air conditioner in your cab to keep yourself your human body cool when it was 100 and 20 degrees.

(15:37):
But if you had a pet,
then California cares about the animals.
So he said I'll just sell gerbils and I'll buy them back when you come out of the state.
That's a great idea.
I,
I wanna talk real quick about this ABC test.
Now,
this is the test that's come along with the proposed legislation and they say this is how you decide if you are an independent contractor owner operator or if you are an employee of the company,

(16:05):
there's a lot of legalese in this guy.
So I'm gonna do as best I can.
Here.
It says the three pronged ABC test dictates that a worker is considered an independent contractor to whom a wage order does not apply.
Only if the hiring agency establishes a,
that the worker is free from control and direction of the hirer in connection with the performance of the work,

(16:27):
both under the contract for performance of such work.
And in fact,
b that the worker performs the work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entities,
business and c that the worker is customarily engaged in independently established trade occupation or business of the same nature as the work performed for the hiring entity.

(16:52):
OK.
A lot of words,
salad there,
but I,
I will say,
and,
and Terry,
I want to hear your thoughts on this.
It doesn't sound to me and,
and maybe I'm wrong here but it doesn't sound to me like H and M would fulfill a B or C there for their company drivers because you are not free from the control and direction of the hirer.
Uh You do,
you do not.

(17:12):
I am because I got to choose my load,
not just put on me,
I got to choose my load.
Ok.
So then let me ask you,
this is if your performance was suffering greatly,
oh,
I'd be terminated.
They cancel that contract in a heartbeat.
There you go.
So I think that's where they probably don't fall.
They don't complete the letter A of this ABC B.

(17:33):
It says the worker performs work.
That is outside the usual course of the hiring entity business.
Your job is the same as a company driver except for owning your truck,
choosing your load,
that type of thing.
Am I am I correct to say that and covering the expenses of the vehicle,
right?
Ok.
So,
so maybe a little bit of gray area there with the vehicle expense since you're the one responsible for that.

(17:54):
But still this is work that's being performed by company drivers.
As far as the job description is concerned based on their wording and description there,
they're matching me into a company driver position based on those two alone and they're just trying to,
then that's,
that's something we should understand here.
This is going to be written with a purpose and it's very clear that they're trying,

(18:16):
that purpose is trying to talk about owner operators here,
at least,
at least in my eyes and,
and C says that the worker is customarily engaged in an independently established trade occupation or business of the same nature of the work performed for the hiring entity.
So technically,
that's true because you are,
you're established,

(18:37):
right?
You can run for any company that will contract out to you.
No,
you can't,
you can run under H and M's dot Number.
I do not have my own dot Authority.
I do not have an MC number so that to satisfy option C,
it sounds like you would need your own,
those items.
I would need those items.

(18:58):
I would also have to have my own trailer so that H and M did not dictate whether or not I took another load.
I would also have to have the authority to take another load from another company.
I'm contracted to H and M I'm not allowed to,
I have to take the load through H and m because I'm contracted for my hours of service to be used for them.

(19:18):
So what do you think,
Terry after we talk about all this?
I mean,
because just getting your own authority,
getting your own trailer,
all those things that you just mentioned,
that sounds like shut down small business is what they're doing is what it sounds like they're trying to close small businesses down and make all of us become company employees again.
Trying to go back to the old industrialized setting that our current school systems still haven't updated from.

(19:43):
Everybody has to work for somebody else if you're not working for a 1% a year,
by the time you finally,
you know,
you get to pay that truck off and you would be able to really start,
you know,
raking in the bucks,
which was the reason I was wanting to do it.
Well,
that truck's gonna be out of date by California standards,
um,

(20:03):
as an independent.
Unless you got mega bucks and you drive as a hobby,
they're also trying to make it.
So you can't operate in California without having only electric.
Yeah,
we have talked about that actually pretty recently here on the podcast.
And,
uh,
you know,
look,
I,
I don't understand why,
like I said,
this whole shoot first and ask questions later.

(20:25):
Thing doesn't work when it comes to law enforcement.
And I'm not just talking about enforcing law to keep the criminals off the streets and we're talking about laws that we all abide by to make this society run.
Um,
you know,
doing something like this that's going to completely upend a large portion of the industry with no contingency plan for these people is detrimental,

(20:48):
regardless of how you look at it.
Even if there were only 5000 owner operators out there across the entire United States running right now and you were going to enact this law and it was going to affect all 5000 of them.
It's still too many.
It's too many.
If it's 500 it's too many.
If it's 100 because there's no contingency plan.

(21:08):
You have to have a plan in place for these people because,
well,
let me just put it to you like this terry,
this law goes in,
in effect tomorrow and you are no longer allowed to be an owner operator working for H and M.
What are you doing?
Are you sticking around in the industry?
Are you finding AAA carrier that will take you or are you headed elsewhere for greener pastures?

(21:29):
Well,
surprisingly enough,
I actually have a friend who is his own authority and whatnot and all of that stuff going in his favor.
So I would just contact him and basically become his employee while getting paid my owner operator stuff.
Ok.
So you did,

(21:49):
I have a contingency plan to play their system against them,
which that's got to be something that a lot of people are thinking about is how can I use this to my advantage and burn the people that are trying to put these laws in effect.
And I can't imagine that they,
that every one of them has a plan like you do,
Terry,
that is,
is ready made and you've got a connection and you're,

(22:10):
you're,
you can jump ship at any time if you had to.
I imagine that this would probably put a portion of drivers out of driving.
It's going to,
it's gonna be too expensive for them to recover from this,
especially if it happens as fast as what we're used to seeing uh with legislation coming out of California.
Yeah.

(22:31):
And like the biggest thing that's gonna happen is everybody that's currently buying a truck and with a company is gonna have to make one of two choices.
And so is that overhead company?
They're either gonna have to the compa the overhead company either gonna have to do something to reimburse the driver.
So the driver doesn't feel hurt or the company is gonna have to release the driver with the truck so that the driver can finish paying off their truck running somewhere else,

(22:57):
doing something else for someone else with that truck.
Well,
also occasionally helping with stuff outside that company's realm,
which would mean like with H and M,
you're running a refrigerated trailer for H and M because it's something special outside their realm or you dragging a hopper bottom trailer for Swift.
Like that's what they're basically trying to say is got to be outside the purview of the normal day to day operations.

(23:22):
So if the company can help you out,
maybe they'll hook you up to something that's outside of that so they can continue to satisfy uh the,
the criteria of this law.
But that would put the companies out and then the companies start to lose money because so,
like,
it's,
it's,
it's not really a win for anybody other than in this instance,
it feels like the state of California,

(23:43):
which again,
that's not why we make laws is to appease a bunch of,
uh,
snooty West coasters.
That's not why we do it.
And that's definitely not why federal laws are worded the way that they are.
But man,
I don't know,
I,
I'm,
I'm looking forward to seeing how this thing,
uh,
wraps up,
Terry.
Are you following this very closely?

(24:04):
I rarely follow this stuff closely.
I'm just that guy because a DH D and my laziness,
I'm not gonna follow it when it passes because I have no say so on that vote in California when and if it passes,
if it has an effect on me and their wording doesn't,
does as they want as they want.

(24:25):
And H and M is no longer to go,
no longer able to go out there with their owner operators H and M will probably just stop running their owner,
operator trucks out there and only send their company trucks.
Sure.
Well,
and that's probably what the entire nation of OTR trucks is gonna do is just well through California.
And then when the federal government,

(24:45):
that the entire nation basically turned her nose up to California and just blatantly restricted who went in there,
the government's gonna realize that that law can't really work.
There's too much that's gonna have to change for it to work.
Or California is gonna have the other end,
their,
their suppliers,
their,
you know,
their salad bowl,
if you will,
they're not gonna have enough trucks to run that stuff.

(25:07):
And so they're gonna start screaming and they're gonna say,
oh,
we need federal assistance.
We need billions of dollars because we,
our crops are rotting on the ground because the truck won't come get them.
So the government's gonna have to bail it out.
Californians are just stupid.
It's a lose,
lose proposition here and maybe there's a way that they could,
maybe there's a way they could do this if they sat down and planned it out for five years and talked about slowly implementing it.

(25:32):
But still a lot like Denny brought up at the beginning of this segment.
Ok,
fine.
Maybe you do that.
But what's the end goal?
Who is benefiting here aside from the government?
Uh,
which again,
I,
I've,
I've said this a few times on this podcast there.
The government is bloated enough.
I don't think there's a big reason to take a lot of money out of the public's pocket and put it into the government's pocket.

(25:56):
Especially not when there's no clear winner here.
Like,
if you've got a law that you're gonna pass where 90% of the population is affected positively and only 10% are affected negatively.
It sucks for those 10% of people.
But there's a reason that we're putting that in is because it's for the greater good.
This does not seem like the case here.

(26:16):
At least as far as I've looked into it,
which admittedly is probably not as,
as deep into the rabbit hole as you could go.
Uh,
but I'm going bald and I wanna stop pulling my hair out thinking about California legislation because it seems like that's all I do whenever we read about it.
Yeah.
Well,
the funny thing is,
is if,
if California succeeds,

(26:38):
they pass the legislation and the legislation seems successful within their state.
Colorado will be the first to follow,
if not Washington or Oregon.
Oh,
God.
I know,
man.
And it sucks being a lifelong Oregonian.
It has sucked since the beginning of my time on this earth because you feel like,
like here in Oregon,
if you talk to a person,

(26:59):
just a random person on the street and you go,
hey,
what do you think about Californians?
They sound like truck drivers.
They don't get them out of my city,
get them out of my town.
Please stop trying to turn Oregon into California.
But when something happens,
like,
you know,
some big law gets passed and,
and Oregon sees California do it and it sees it in the headlines.

(27:21):
Washington the same way.
And Colorado,
you're exactly right.
Smiles.
We just follow suit for,
for no reason other than that,
they're down there and we're up here and it seems like the right thing to do Y'all might but not around here.
I just saw a bumper sticker within the last week said stop trying to California,
my Texas.
Y and I think,
stop trying to California all the states.

(27:43):
That's the problem with them having these two huge population centers within the state,
they piss those people off until they can't take it anymore.
And all those people leave the state and then try to turn the state that they went into,
into California rednecks.
We don't go for that shit.
No,
you don't.
And they're all armed.
That's the other thing.

(28:03):
Even if they wanted to take it away,
they can't.
Well,
Terry,
I appreciate you coming on here.
Sharing some time with us today,
man.
This has been real insightful and I think that uh in the future when and if this thing passes or when and if it fails because fingers crossed that this legislation fails and we get to come back on here and have like a party about it.

(28:26):
I would love that,
but I want to get you back.
Yeah,
I wanna get you back on,
uh,
sometime in the future to talk about this some more.
If that's all right with you,
you know,
I'm good with it.
It's totally fun.
It's always good to hear from you guys and have fun on the show.
We really appreciate smile.
Let's invite him back for some fun stuff next time.
I know.
Right.

(28:48):
Well,
I mean,
we did kind of make sure he gets some fun stuff out of the way on my first visit.
So that's true.
If we have to do a couple of serious visits,
then that's fine because our fun visit was my first one.
And even though it was a lot of fun for us,
I know it was quite helpful for other drivers.
Exactly.
It is.
And this will be too because we've got more owner operators out there that are listening.

(29:09):
I know that for a fact.
And if they haven't looked into this,
it might be something that you want to do if you're sitting there listening and you're a little curious right now as to how the future might unfold,
uh,
just do a few Google searches,
read through some of this stuff.
And,
uh,
of course,
this episode will not only have this interview with Terry,
but we'll also be talking to Patty Roup and in this podcast episode and that will be very informative as well.

(29:33):
So,
uh,
Terry,
we're pulling for you man.
Uh,
we really hope that the bill doesn't get any bigger than what you told me it was yesterday as you wait for the repairs on your truck at the dealership.
Thank you so much for being here today.
Thank you and you guys be safe and enjoy yourselves up there on the coast.
Where aren't you guys predicted another heavy storm coming your way already?

(29:56):
Yeah,
I mean,
we're in this part in Oregon right now where we have like four different springs.
They last like between four and six days a piece and then we get rained on for two or three weeks.
So it's beautiful right now,
but don't get used to it.
So that means you guys got three days,
didn't they just get it was,
it was beautiful.

(30:18):
Oh,
man.
Yeah,
I uh too much more of this nice weather and uh you guys will see me not showing up for these interviews because I'll be out golfing.
Um But it just blew up my spot.
So now I probably can't do that.
So,
yeah.
All right,
Terry,
keep the shiny side up.
Be safe out there.
All right.
Enjoy guys.

(30:38):
See you.
Hey,
I'm Denny Stone.
I want to welcome you to a,
a segment that I've really been looking forward to telling this story because,
uh you may have heard me call the big rig Cafe.
Bill's Big Rig Cafe a couple of times and the reason for that is uh a dear friend of mine that was a lifelong trucker.

(31:03):
Um,
his name was Bill Martin and we lost him a couple of years ago.
Tragically,
he literally was a trucker until the day he died.
And we'll tell you more about that in just a little bit.
But,
uh,
Bill's Day revolved around food where he could find it,
what he could make.
That was what he looked forward to and we talked about it at length many,

(31:25):
many times and kind of want to tell you a little bit about Bill's story and,
and why we honor him this way.
And I'll be over the,
over the next months and years telling you some of Bill's favorite places to eat that became my favorites because,
you know,
he turned me anywhere.
I was,
no matter where I was in the country,
I'd call Bill.
I go,
hey,
Bill,
I'm out at such and such.

(31:45):
Is there a good,
oh,
yeah.
Stop at ranch hand or you know,
he'd tell me the name of these places and where to find them.
He even told me places that I didn't dare to go to because he'd say,
ok,
well,
you turn here,
then you turn there and then you turn down this alley and if you pull up close to the dumpster,
there's room to park.
I'm like,
all right,
forget that,
that hot dog is not worth it to me,
but it was to build Martin and I,
I'm proud to say that Bill's brother Ed,

(32:08):
who was also uh a lifelong trucker and uh also worked for H and M Trucking.
Bill.
Uh Ed is with us today to tell us more about Bill's story and of course Marcus is here.
We couldn't do this without Marcus.
So guys help me out here,
tell,
help,
tell Bill's story if you would Ed.
Ok?
You know,
can y'all see this?

(32:29):
There we go.
Hold it up just a little higher for us.
There you go.
Can you see all three pictures?
Y Yes,
sir.
We got it.
Honestly.
If you look at it again,
if I can get it up there high enough daddy's in the middle.

(32:50):
And then I'm on the layout 10 meal back when he didn't care how much money he spent on the right.
And then you know the reason I say that,
don't you?
Yes,
sir,
because he's got that big old hat with a feather in the front to one horse.
You had to pay for those just to look at them.

(33:13):
Well,
that was back in the,
the glory days back in the seventies when you know,
smoking and the bandit and everybody had AC B radio and y'all live that life.
Well,
that particular picture of Bill was in 1980 I think uh mine was in uh 74 daddy's I think was in 55 or 56.

(33:34):
So we did get us honestly and uh Bill got it honestly.
From me,
how we got Bill,
both of the long haul truck driving jobs that he ever had because of me.
You know,
first one he got it,
you know,
I said,
uh,
you know,
hey,
give him a chance and,

(33:56):
uh,
he went out with a guy to drive with and,
and the guy came back and told him,
he said,
you need to hire this guy.
We went to make a pickup at this place and he knew where it was,
the reason he knew where it was because he had been with me on a trip and we went there to make a pickup and,
you know,
uh,
so things go along and then he got into a job,

(34:19):
but it was all local and he worked inside the,
uh,
you know,
warehouse and everything and,
uh,
he let his CD out.
Well,
I wasn't CD L yet but he let it,
you know,
labs and I want to get back into it again.
So I said,
ok,
and,
uh,

(34:40):
I would,
uh,
uh,
oh,
shoot,
here it is that we're talking about H and M and I can't even remember the ducas name.
Uh,
vice President.
Uh,
probably Dale,
that'd be Dale.
Dale Cook.
And I said,
uh,
and I went to,
uh,
uh,
the current president's father in law and said,

(35:03):
I got this situation and he wants to dive again.
And,
uh,
Dale said,
all right,
but he's gonna have to ride with you for a month and do everything.
And,
uh,
so I told him then he did,
he did everything.
I made him do everything.
I mean,
from,
you know,
the get go from getting a hold of,

(35:25):
uh,
dispatch and find out what he's doing to finding out where he was going.
And therefore I got him his second.
I gotta ask Ed a couple of brothers in a truck together for an entire month.
Were you guys at each other's throats at all during that month?
Not as bad as you would think.

(35:45):
II,
I did it with my best friend one time and we b became best enemies.
But,
uh,
no,
it wasn't.
Uh,
because a lot of times I'd sit up here and I'd look on my phone and then I'd get sleepy and I'd go back,
I'd go back to sleep,
you know.
And,
uh,
uh,
but,
uh,
I remember one funny thing from the,

(36:05):
that trip that he went on that I told you about where he went to this place.
I said,
OK,
I said,
we're empty.
I said,
go back and tell me when the fifth,
my fifth wheel is in the middle of the tandems.
His question was he come back,
he went back there and he come back.
He said,
what's the Fifth Wheel?

(36:27):
Yeah.
Then I never told you that.
I don't know that I told anybody that,
I mean,
you know,
it didn't ever seem to have been a problem for me.
I just knew that,
you know,
that that was the fifth wheel.
And,
uh,
he said,
where's the fifth wheel?
I count five I eight.

(36:50):
He got his,
uh,
Mac for finding a good place to eat from me.
I'm not trying to take the credit.
I'm just telling it for what it is.
Uh,
you know,
and,
uh,
once you find a good place you tend to remember it.
I mean,
some of the plain one,
you know,
like the one over there on 80 you know,

(37:12):
uh,
they're in Indiana.
Uh,
come on,
help me there,
Denny.
Oh,
you're talking about gas grill.
Gas grill.
Yeah.
Uh,
you probably wouldn't have gone to gas grill simply because of where it was located.
It was located on the side of a large convenience store,

(37:33):
truck stop.
And,
uh,
and until you went in there and actually had the food,
you probably wouldn't,
nothing fancy.
But son,
you didn't come out of there hungry,
you in it,
you got as much to eat as you could walk.
That's just east of Indie on,
uh,
on I 70 there.
But,
uh,
yeah,
and then,

(37:53):
uh,
oh,
I was just gonna say the thing that tickled me most about Bill was he was a storyteller.
Oh,
yeah.
When he,
he launched into a story,
you could even say Bill,
I've heard that or you could finish the story for him,
but he was not deterred.
Bill was gonna tell his story,
even if you'd heard it five times before he was gonna tell it again because he didn't seem to realize that he'd already told it to you.

(38:19):
It got better over time.
You know,
sometimes I think with those guys that,
uh,
they get more joy out of telling the story than will ever get out of hearing it.
So if you've heard it a few times,
it doesn't matter to them,
they're gonna keep telling that story.

(38:39):
That's true.
But Bill was a character and,
uh,
I,
I guess we should get to the sad part.
We don't want to run out of time.
But,
uh,
Bill and I,
that last year or so,
we're,
we're like,
we're about a year apart in age.
He's just a,
just a little bit older than me.
And,
uh,
we were both looking at retirement and making plans and what are we gonna do and we're gonna do this?

(39:00):
Well,
you know,
I had,
I had hobbies that I wanted to get into.
I'm a woodworker and I've built my woodworking shop and I was looking forward to getting in there and doing things and travel and doing a little bit of traveling.
You know,
when you're a long haul trucker,
I'm like,
I can't understand these guys that buy Winnebago and want to drive all the time.
I wanted to take a few trips.
But anyway,
um,

(39:20):
Bill and I would talk a lot about what we were planning in our future.
And,
um,
sadly he didn't make it to retirement.
He was fueling up at the petro in Gary Indiana and had a heart attack and died right there.
He was a trucker to the day he died.
And,
uh,
I'll always cherish that time that we had because,

(39:44):
you know,
as well as I do that you're out there on the road and you value those people,
you can pick up the phone and call because hour after hour goes by and just to talk to a friend that it helps those miles go by.
And Bill was one of those that you could always count on to pick up the phone and chat with you.
Uh,
it wasn't anything for he and I to get in that thing together,

(40:04):
he'd be one place and I'd be another and we talk to each other through a rough time of the night or early morning.
And next thing,
you know,
you,
where you're going and you're,
you're awake.
Yes,
sir.
And we'd touch base almost.
I'd say almost every day.
But if not every day,
at least every other day and keep track of where we were.

(40:24):
If we were gonna cross paths,
we'd be picking out somewhere,
we might be able to stop,
you know,
the time and it only works out one out of 10 times.
But just in case you,
you pick that restaurant,
that gas bill or whatever and you're gonna stop there and some of the places,
like I said,
like,
then he said,
we're like,
turn left here,
then turn right there and then turn there and there's gonna be a dumpster.

(40:45):
But parking decided.
And,
uh,
there actually is a place in Memphis,
Tennessee that fits that bill.
It's right in downtown if you've ever been to Memphis and,
uh,
know where the,
uh,
Peabody Hotel is.
Yes,
sir.
There is an alley right across in front of the main entrance in the middle of that alley is a dumpster.

(41:09):
That's the main entrance to one of the best rib places in the country.
Oh,
wow.
And that's where you go in at.
You go in.
What I was talking about was up in Virginia off,
uh,
81.
Uh,
it was,
I think it was a diner or a hot dog stand or something that he would go to and he gave me directions two or three times.

(41:30):
Kept trying to talk me into going there.
And I was like,
uh,
from the directions you're given.
I don't think so.
Well,
some of the places,
uh,
were on us routes.
I think this one was off the 10 actually.
Yeah.
And often,
you know,
us highways that were,
we ran before the interstate and some of them survived the interstate.

(41:55):
Some of them didn't.
And,
uh,
we knew where they were and,
uh,
back in the day this one place was where roadway,
yala time DC.
Uh,
some of the larger older companies,
if you'd been around,
you knew who they were.
And,
uh,
they went over there and then after the interstates opened that they still kept stopping over there because they knew they could stop.

(42:18):
It wouldn't be a crowd because they knew where they were.
But anybody else knew where they were.
And that's where we knew a lot of the places.
There was a place down in North Carolina on us 220 it didn't close to just within the past year.
And it was called P and M Truck Stop.
And you go in there dirt parking lot.
And,

(42:39):
uh,
there's a room for maybe 15 or 20 trucks at the most.
And for years we stopped there simply because we knew they had the best,
not beef stew but stew beef like,
yep.
And it was just beef that had been stewed in his own juices.
And we knew it and the same way with their hot dogs there and hot dogs were,

(43:03):
you know,
they were North Carolina hot dogs.
And Bill always loved that soup that he got only from that one lady at Little Nashville.
If she wasn't cooking it,
he wasn't eating it.
That's exactly right.
And usually he,
that was correct.
If that lady didn't make it,
it wasn't as good.
It wasn't bad.
It just wasn't as good.

(43:23):
And,
uh,
it was pure vegetable soup,
then he can testify to that.
It was pure vegetable soup.
And he got mad when,
uh,
oh,
what was it,
uh,
the one in Oklahoma that he used to like to eat bean soup at and they stopped serving it and he pitched right there.
You come off of,
uh,

(43:43):
the Oklahoma Turnpike to get out to Dallas.
And,
uh,
yeah,
I didn't like that either.
They stopped serving it and,
uh,
they called it bean soup but actually what it was was just soup beans if that makes any sense.
And he,
he and I'd argue about cornbread because I like it sweet.

(44:05):
And he thought he said,
if I want cake,
I'll eat cake.
I want cornbread.
And we argued about that.
I don't know how many times,
but Bill was a character and anybody who knew him,
knew Bill Martin.
And that,
that's why we like to call it Bill's Big Rig Cafe in honor of him.
He,
he was different than I was.
I work for several bits and cos Neil worked for two in his entire career.

(44:32):
He worked for two and one was uh the ones you see in this picture that I showed.
You,
see it again.
I'll show it real quick.
See the name of it.
If you can see,
I believe I've got that picture.
Maybe we can,
we can put it up and uh you got,
you may have the one that has all three of us together like this.

(44:53):
And uh that was the first company we go to the plan or,
and,
uh,
then the second one was H and M,
that's the only two companies he ever drove for.
And,
uh,
all the years that he drove me,
I was a little different,
I would like to go out and go to different things and different places and make a little more money and drive a little bit faster truck.

(45:17):
And,
oh,
yeah,
you,
you worked star cars and drove,
you know,
I did,
I did,
uh,
uh,
uh,
entertainer coaches for a few years.
Uh,
never did Entertainment trucker trucking.
That's too much like work.
I mean,
you had to get there,
well,
you had to get there early in the morning to also mode and then it depends on the venue,

(45:43):
whether you got to offload in an easy spot or whether it was,
you had to wait and get your turn and then when you,
you know,
load it out that night you had to wait your turn to out load and it might,
and might not be.
I've been places in there with,
uh,
entertainer coaches that you go who in the world ever figured out the parking on this place.

(46:04):
And,
uh,
he thought about that a little bit.
I never did get him into that,
but he thought about it but just never didn't do it.
And,
uh,
he,
uh,
uh,
I,
I still miss him,
of course,
not as much because time,
you know,
does say a few things.
Uh,
but,

(46:24):
yeah,
uh,
there was another guy at H and M and I can't remember his name right now that used to know all the places and Bill and I,
if we didn't get in there and we didn't know what place we call him.
And,
uh,
he went by a nickname.
He didn't go by his real name.
And,
uh,
I can't remember but he's still there but we call him and he'd say,

(46:47):
yeah,
uh,
try this,
try that.
You know,
he's probably one of the first ones that introduced us to Ranch House.
Oh,
yeah.
Love Ranch House.
You know,
and the stage stops gone downhill last few times.
I was in there just wasn't good anymore,
but maybe they've improved.
We can cross our fingers and hope.
Which one was that Ranch House stage stop out by Boise Boise State up.

(47:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh,
the last time I was in there it was pretty good.
But of course,
that's been four years ago.
Yes,
it was one of the,
one of if not the last truck stops that still cater to truck stops when you go in there.
And there's a big sign that says truck drivers stop here for this reason.

(47:32):
And then you get inside and you find out that big sign,
it says truck drivers only this section.
And,
uh,
they said don't get mad if we serve them first.
I love that sign.
They also,
they were set up for ranchers too because they had corrals out there where you could offload and you know,
stay the night and let horses and cattle run around.
Yes,

(47:52):
sir.
And anyway,
we're,
we're kind of running over time here,
so better wrap it up.
But just a brief history.
Uh,
I know Bill grew up in,
in West Virginia and still held that near and dear to his heart.
I guess he was born in West Virginia.
But I don't know,
all three of us were when there was three.
There was an older,
older brother passed away about,

(48:13):
uh,
two years,
maybe three before Bill did almost to the same day,
uh,
meal,
the animals on the same day that he did and he was a,
he was a Marine Vietnam veteran,
as I recall.
And we didn't know two years later that he was.
But,
uh,
I'm the only one left.

(48:34):
And,
uh,
yes,
I was born in West Virginia as well.
Well,
thank you so much for being with us and sharing.
And,
um,
again,
those are all that don't know.
I,
I reached out to Ed and ask because I didn't want,
I didn't want to step on any toes,
but I did wanna call the,
the cafe,
the Bills,
big rig cafe.
And in inside that when we have a chance,

(48:57):
we'll be passing along some of these favorite restaurants that,
that Bill turned me on to and I'll pass that along to you because hopefully a much of them are still out there and we'll show you the good places to eat and teach you some tricks and,
and how to actually prepare a decent meal on the truck.
It's called Bill's Big Rig Cafe.
Y'all be looking for it.
I can't wait for the next one.
Ed.

(49:18):
Thanks for being here.
We really appreciate the time.
Hope to join you again.
Oh,
you do not want to hear that sound.
Wouldn't that ruin your day?
If the sign says men at work,
then you know,
it's serious.
Our focus this month for the safety message is work zones and work zone safety research that route pay attention,

(49:40):
slow down,
move into the open lane.
Don't be the guy that's up there at the front trying to jam in at the last minute and keep your distance,
keep that safe distance.
More data from that last year that they compiled.
This stuff was 2019.
That year,
over 33% of fatal crashes in these work zones involved commercial motor vehicles.
That's why we're stressing the safety thing here.

(50:01):
Large blind spots,
long stopping and size constraints make maneuvering large trucks in those work zone.
You know,
it's challenging.
There's plenty of resources available.
So research that route check for upcoming work zones.
If you can plan ahead and avoid that,
take a detour.
If you can and just get around it,
it's gonna be quicker and easier again.

(50:23):
Research the route pay attention,
slow down,
move into the open lane when you have a chance,
keep your distance.
Y'all be safe out there.
Folks want you home next up here on the H and M Trucking podcast.

(50:43):
Joining Denny and I is controller for H and M Trucking Patty Root Patty.
Thank you so much for being here today.
No problem.
Now,
we enjoy our little meetings.
Well,
we don't have very many of them and we're gonna make a point to get you back on this podcast more because,
uh,
I enjoy the time spent with you as well.
These are always very informative segments.

(51:05):
So today's topic at hand is,
uh,
not,
not our favorite one.
It's not one that we're gonna have a lot of fun talking about today.
We might pull a few hairs out,
uh,
even.
But,
uh,
it's,
it's important for us to talk about it.
And that is,
uh,
kind of the legislation surrounding A B five out in California.
Um,

(51:26):
these laws that they're discussing have a 10 or have a,
uh,
uh,
potential to really affect the way that owner operators operate within the trucking space patty.
And,
uh,
you were recommended to us as somebody that has some information on this.
So I just wanted to ask you real quick,
what,
what types of,
of legislation is being tabled right now and,

(51:47):
and what does it stand to affect as far as owner operators are concerned with?
H AND M?
Ok.
The,
the main thing is that the IRS is updating their archaic ruling of what defines an independent contractor versus an employee.
It's more to,
you know,
make sure that the employees are taken care of and that true independent contractors or,

(52:12):
you know,
um,
outside workers,
um,
actually are,
and should be classified as,
you know,
a contractor,
not an employee.
It's mostly a big push from the department of Labor surrounding,
um,
work comp and social security Medicare and all the taxes that go along with being an employee versus being an independent contractor.

(52:37):
And what are your,
what are your takes on it at this point in time?
I know it's still kind of early in the game.
But uh are,
are you worried about what's going to happen or what could potentially happen to owner operators with H and M or do you think that it's going to be business as usual?
What,
what are you thinking there?
I think for,
for H and M it's gonna be business as usual.

(52:58):
It's always been uh,
um,
big push on my part and on the management here at H and M to make sure that we define that line between an independent contractor versus employee.
Very,
you know,
big red line.
Not,
not throw up any flags because,
you know,
they are a true independent contractor as a business person,

(53:20):
they are managing their business that is their bread and butter.
They're taking care of their expenses.
Yes,
they get direction from H and M as far as their loads and,
you know,
um,
insurance requirements and stuff like that.
But at the end result,
they are running a business and I think that our,

(53:41):
in our owner operators are pretty well defined in that respect.
And we've took many steps over the past years to make sure that there is no red flags that the IRS or the Department of Labor will come after us for treating them wrongly.
Ok.
And with this legislation that's being challenged right now,

(54:03):
out in California,
this A B five bill,
uh,
where basically what they're trying to do is,
is a lot like what you're saying very,
um,
there's a lot of word salad here and a lot of legal ease,
but they're trying to say like they,
they want to define what is an independent contractor and what is not.
And the California Trucking Association has challenged this law twice and actually been,

(54:27):
uh,
they,
they've lost both times that they've challenged it and they're challenging it right now.
Patty on the basis of,
of discrimination towards owner operators.
Judge didn't agree with them on that.
But I,
I'm wondering if you've looked into this,
uh,
this A B five that's coming out of California at all.
And,
and if you're worried about that legislation,

(54:48):
maybe grabbing hold and having a bunch of states follow suit.
Uh,
if California ends up getting this pushed through,
I'm not too worried about it.
We've,
we've looked into it when they started making a lot of noise about it a few years back.
But right now it's not,
I believe we have maybe one owner operator that is a resident of California.

(55:11):
So it's not a big push on our part.
They're trying to eliminate those,
those business people and make them employees so that the employer would be responsible for the taxes and the withholdings and everything and I don't,
the effects of it.
I'm not real sure what,

(55:32):
you know,
where we would stand when they find if they do get it pushed through and,
and,
and not get challenged again.
I'm just not for sure if it's going to affect us because California can make rules,
but the Department of Labor is the end authority on everything.
Mhm.

(55:52):
Sure.
Uh Denny,
did you have any,
any questions for Patty?
I,
I know that,
uh,
you know,
through your experience as a company driver,
you didn't get your,
your hands in this owner operator thing as much,
but you did think about it.
Uh going in.
I know that for a fact.
So anything from you here?
Well,
one thing that Patty said,
kinda made me go,
huh?
Because I was asking,

(56:14):
you know,
the,
the question at the top of my mind is what is the purpose?
What really behind this?
And Patty said,
uh,
you only had one California driver at H and M our California owner operator.
So,
is this strictly for residents of California,
it wouldn't affect anybody else.
Is that the way I understand this?
That's my understanding of the bill.
It's gonna,

(56:35):
it's gonna affect businesses that are,
um,
home offices in California.
So they're paying California taxes and those,
that drivers that have residents in California.
Oh,
ok.
Well,
that,
that clears up one question right there.
Um,
but,

(56:55):
uh,
yeah,
and some of the other things she said that we hadn't really discussed and I haven't thought about,
um,
because I wasn't an owner operator,
I mean,
like,
one of the reasons I was able to retire is because of what I contributed or what the employer contributed,
uh,
are forced me to contribute whatever,
whatever the phrase may be here.
But anyway,
my social security had a,

(57:17):
you know,
it's,
it's a nice,
nice balance in there.
So,
um,
if owner operators aren't forced to do that and,
and then they get to the end of their career,
do they have anything?
Because the employer,
if H and M is not contributing that because they're an owner operator that's kinda made me go.
Hm.
Well,
maybe the government is looking out to protect them in their old age so that,

(57:37):
you know,
they're not going on the,
the government tit,
they've got their own Medicare and Social Security.
Right?
When,
um,
as an owner operator,
you're an inde you're,
uh,
a self employment.
And so when you file your tax return as a self-employed or LLC or however you establish your business.
You then based on what your income is,

(57:58):
what income is,
um,
subject to social security.
It will,
then you pay both parts.
So the end of the owner operator themselves is paying their social security into the system.
Ok.
So they're gonna get it in there anyway,
one way or another be qualified.

(58:20):
What made you think Uncle Sam wasn't gonna get his cut,
Danny.
Come on now,
you know,
him better than that at this point,
don't you?
That's supposed to be,
that's not Uncle Sam.
That's supposed to be set aside for our future and our golden years.
That's,
that's,
that's money that we've contributed for our,
you know,
for our retirement.
That's where I'm at now.
That's where I,
anytime somebody talks about social security Medicare,

(58:41):
I'm,
I'm like,
wait a minute,
that's my money.
Yeah.
Well,
I mean,
they've been telling us since I was in high school that they didn't think that there was gonna be any of it left for me by the time I get to retirement age.
So it might only be your money,
Danny.
It might,
it might not be mine.
Well,
you gotta think about it because we're,
we're putting money into Social Security and the government's borrowing it so they're not gonna do away with it because then they would lose their savings account.

(59:12):
Uh,
it's true.
That's a very good point.
Well,
we'll just let,
let them keep borrowing it interest free then why not?
You know,
it's,
I was just gonna say thank,
thank goodness for social security and,
and the fact that I'm,
I'm a Vietnam era veteran.
So I've got,
you know,
the coverage from the VA so I,
I can go,
either way I can,
you know,
I can go to,

(59:33):
to a regular doctor or I can go to the VA and luckily the one here is very good.
I've been very pleased with.
So I'm blessed in that respect.
But a lot of guys aren't,
no,
they aren't.
That's why my,
my husband's on social security and getting a um va disability check and we have,
you know,
the va to go to for health care.

(59:54):
So that's great.
It's a good thing.
Yeah.
Yeah,
for sure.
Well,
I,
you know,
and thank you both while I have a second here because I know people listening or thinking it.
Thank you both for your service to this great country.
And uh I know that there's a lot of people that will echo the sentiment out there that you deserve every bit of that that you get.
And uh,

(01:00:14):
you probably deserve more to be honest with you.
And uh maybe someday we'll figure that out as well.
But I wonder Patty to kind of take this back to,
uh to the legislation here that we're talking about.
We spoke to a driver about this,
an owner operator who seemed a little bit concerned that that if California were to get this passed,

(01:00:37):
that maybe,
uh,
they would have enough influence to eventually have this become a federal level,
uh,
law where,
you know,
basically owner operators don't really exist within the trucking space anymore.
Um,
what would you say to a driver that's thinking along those lines?
It might be a little bit nervous about this and,
and the Department of Labor,

(01:00:58):
you know,
kind of changing their,
um,
their standpoint or the IRS kind of fixing their vocabulary or whatever it is that surrounds this,
how would you talk to that driver and kind of put him at ease?
Well,
my main thing is that I think that,
you know,
California started making noise about it and then the because of the archaic 20 factor test,

(01:01:19):
the IRS was doing that if you answer more yeses,
you're a new employee.
If you answer more,
nos you're an independent contractor.
It was very wiggly there.
So I think with California making the news,
making the changes and,
and getting this bill through that kind of defines it better.
The Department of Labor took the stance and said,

(01:01:39):
hey,
we need to update this.
So they've now come out with their totality of the circumstances analysis in,
in big words.
So it pretty much narrows it down to six factors now to be an independent contractor or a,
as an owner operator.
In other words,
are you in business to make money and do the things you do determine if you make income or not.

(01:02:05):
So you're in charge of your expenses,
you're gonna make your business work or not.
You're an independent contractor,
an employee,
they don't have the control to do that.
You know,
they're gonna get a paycheck and they can't determine whether the business is going to stay in afloat or not.
You know,
but as an independent contractor,

(01:02:26):
he's going to determine how,
you know,
how far forward he goes.
If he continues to be an independent contractor,
they have an investment in the,
in,
in their own business,
their truck,
their,
you know,
their livelihood,
they have an investment in it.
And as long as they're doing things right,

(01:02:46):
then,
you know,
they have control over whether,
you know,
they're in business or not.
So,
I think that the Department of Labor has taken steps to squash in short terms.
Um,
what California is doing to more define it to the rest of the,
the US,
to the rest of the state.

(01:03:07):
And I don't think that any other states are gonna jump on board because they don't want the,
the controversy surrounding this.
And we all know,
you know,
California's got a lot of different rules that nobody likes.
Yes,
they do,
they do.
And,
and that's exactly why I'm so happy to have you on here,
Patty because you just took all of that legalese that I've been trying to understand over the last week researching this and,

(01:03:34):
and put it into a way that I can digest it because I've taken so many naps over the last week after reading this stuff.
I,
I don't understand it.
You just made it very simple for me to understand.
And I love the fact that the Department of Labor has a six pronged test because we went through the three prongs of California's test.
It's called the ABC test.

(01:03:57):
And when Denny and I were kind of going back and forth with it,
I wasn't sure that the,
that an owner operator as it stands right now,
satisfied any of the three that California had while it sounds like that kind of is the opposite for what the Department of Labor is doing.
Can I jump in here for a second because,
um,
I just,
I need clarification.

(01:04:18):
Um,
if an owner operator,
for instance,
what Marcus,
you and I had discussed when I thought about it years ago,
I was gonna go get independent financing,
I was gonna buy a truck and then I could,
I could sign on with any company I wanted to,
that company went out of business or cut my miles.
I could go somewhere else and keep making my payment.
That kind of,

(01:04:40):
that kind of owner operator to me in my mind,
I is totally different from one that is at least purchased through the company where H and M is reputable and I trust them and I'll sing those praises.
Till till the cows come home.
But there are companies out there that are not,
that will let you get through this window of lots of repairs and then pay a bunch of money for this truck and then they cut your miles,

(01:05:03):
you park it and you lose the truck,
you hand the keys back over to them.
Could this kind of legislation protect those kind of deals?
Because it seems to me that you've got the owner operator,
like I was gonna be where I either outright own the truck or I financed it on my own or you got the ones that are at least purchasing through a company that kind of controls the purse strings.

(01:05:26):
Yeah.
Yeah,
I think that this,
um,
y my thoughts exactly.
That's why when we do,
um,
when an owner operator purchases a truck from us,
they're not purchasing us from H and M,
they're purchasing it through an affiliated entity and they can,
you know,
leave after a couple of years and go work for someone else and still pay for that truck through that entity.

(01:05:47):
Ok.
Their lease to us is separate than that agreement.
That finance agreement for that tractor.
We added an owner operator that was here shortly ago that bought a truck somewhere else was financing it through their leased on with us.
I do believe that simplifying this test down to five or six little markers and the A B,

(01:06:12):
the ABC,
there's just so much controversy and there,
there's so many what ifs in those three things that it,
it confuses people.
But the six tests from the Department of Labor defines it better and yes,
I do believe that some of those lease purchases,
that trucking companies do where they're controlling,

(01:06:37):
whether that owner operator makes money or not is going to come to play with this new ruling.
Well,
maybe,
maybe it could have a good side even though it's a pain in the butt right now for everybody who's scaring everybody.
But yeah,
it tends to be uh the way of the,
the way of the world though.
You know,
they,
they make a lot of noise about this.

(01:06:57):
And I love how Patty's been defining is California making a lot of noise,
lots of noise comes out of that state all the time because you could just hold their breath for a week for us.
I think we would all be better off in the end.
But if trucks would just stop going to California and if uh Nevada and,
and uh and Arizona would cut off their water,
maybe they'd stop squawking so much,

(01:07:20):
all things that we can discuss on the future here in this,
on this podcast and see if we can figure out these problems for him,
Danny.
Uh Patty,
thank you so much for coming on and talking us through this today.
This has been really informative and I hope that the drivers out there listening,
uh,
can at least breathe a little bit easier after kind of understanding the ins and the outs of this,

(01:07:41):
these new rules.
Well,
I hope you,
when I got a legal question,
I know who I'm calling.
Absolutely.
That's a controller.
I can just,
I can just help you interpret the law.
Ok.
That might be all we need.
Whether,
then we'll decide whether or not we're gonna break it going.

(01:08:02):
What the heck does this mean?
And Patty's like just here,
it is laid out very simply,
you know,
maybe they should have someone like you,
Patty actually write these laws so that the rest of us can understand them because whoever they're employing right now likes to hear themselves talk way too much and trust me,
I can spot those people.
They stand out in a crowd to me as you might imagine.

(01:08:25):
Yes,
they do.
Yeah.
Well,
uh,
that's your controller for H and M Trucking.
Patty Root Patty.
Thank you again so much for being here.
Thank you for your service to the country and thanks for everything you do for H and M trucking.
Well,
thank you Marcus and Denny for having me on today.
I enjoyed it.
Talk to you next time.

(01:08:45):
All righty dear.
Take care.
Whoa,
what an episode,
episode 54 of the H and M Trucking Podcast.
Now in the books.
Great stuff from Terry Smiles,
Oatman.
Uh,
great stuff from Denny and Ed talking about Bill's big rig cafe and of course,

(01:09:08):
fantastic stuff from Patty Roop there helping us understand what exactly goes into these new laws and how on earth to read all of the legalese.
I love it when we have somebody that can explain something to me in a way that I can understand it.
Uh Because uh look,
I was getting a headache trying to figure out what all of this stuff meant.

(01:09:30):
Patty did a great job putting it all in perspective uh from the perspective of an H and M employee as well.
So really appreciate everybody's time on this episode for those of you listening to this for the very first time today.
Thank you for being here.
Don't forget if you click the subscribe button on whatever podcast platform you are listening on,

(01:09:51):
it's free,
doesn't cost you a thing and it will alert you every time we put out a new episode,
which is every Wednesday at 5 a.m. central time.
We appreciate all of you out there listening.
We want all of you drivers to stay safe and keep the shiny side up.
And don't forget if you've got something that you think would be good in this podcast.
Uh If you don't already have my number out there as a driver,

(01:10:14):
get it from whoever you can.
I'm not going to put it on this podcast because it is my personal number.
And um needless to say,
I think I've said this before.
There's some ex-girlfriends out there and I don't know why.
All right,
I'm not a catch,
I'm,
I'm like,
if I was in a school of tuna,
I would not be one that stayed in the net.

(01:10:34):
They would throw me back.
All right.
So that's as,
that's as simple as I can put it.
But I'm not gonna put my cell phone number out here on the airwaves,
but you can get in touch with me by getting in touch with your dispatcher,
your driver manager Eve Sherry.
Everybody will give you my number.
Ok.
They've all got it or they'll give you my email address.
So if you want to be on the podcast or you have something that you'd like to hear about on the podcast,

(01:10:56):
we're taking those suggestions in whenever we can get them,
please reach out to uh the proper channel there and make us aware that you've got something for us.
We will definitely get in touch.
That's all the time we've got for today.
Uh next week on the podcast,
we'll do more fun stuff because honestly,
I haven't quite planned it out yet.
Stay fresh cheese bags.

(01:11:20):
Thank you for listening to the H and M Trucking Podcast.
Please leave a review,
subscribe and connect with Marcus over at the H and M trucking social media channels and if you're considering a job at H and M,
find us at HM trucking.com until next time,
stay safe and ahead of the curve drivers