January 26, 2023 • 39 mins
This project looks at the collection, reception, transport and treatment of different types of waste in order to formulate an IoT strategy. The area of need and operation for the BAIT project is municipal waste management and recycling. In this episode Thomas Nylund, Project Manager at Vafab Miljö and Silvia Bruzzone at Mälardalens universitet tells us more about this important project.
Produced by: Nicolai Slotte
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello everyone, and welcometo the IoT Sweden podcast.
Today, we are visited bythe BAIT Project or BITE Project.
Let's see if I'm right.
Please introduce yourself.
My name is Thomas Nylund,and I'm working as a Senior Strategist.
and Advisor at Vafabmiljö.
(00:21):
It's an association formed by12 municipalities with responsibility
for the municipal waste managementin these 12 municipalities.
Yes, hi.
My name is Silvia Bruzzone, so I'ma Senior Lecturer at the Mälardalen University.
So Department of Organisation and Management.
Okay, so you come from the BAIT project.
(00:42):
-Could you please introduce the project?-Yes.
The BAIT project has the intentof understanding how internet
of things can improve activitieswithin the waste management sector,
especially within Vafabmiljö.
In particular.
The main goal would be to developan EU strategy as a final result.
(01:11):
All right.
What's the name of the projectand what does the acronym…
What does the acronym stand for?
So BAIT stands forBättre Avfallshantering med IoT.
So in Swedish, and in Englishit's like improved waste management
with the Internet of Things.
(01:31):
That's good that you tookit in English as well.
I didn't realise it wasin Swedish, the acronym.
What type of project is this?
It's a preparation project.
We're aiming to formulate a strategy forIoT for the waste management business.
And we have a holistic approach.
(01:51):
Many in the business have focusedon sensors in bins and containers
to optimise logistics.
But we are looking at if we can capturedata over time, over longer periods,
and use the data for better planning,optimising the whole system,
and also to make prognosis, forecasts,and also get feedback to the customers,
(02:14):
those who generate waste.
Could we affect their behaviourin sorting better, for example?
Who are the partners in the projectand what are their roles in general?
Well, the problem owner isthe Association for Waste Management.
Vafabmiljö, with responsibilityfor collection and treatment of waste
in these 12 municipalities.
(02:37):
It's a huge organisationwith a lot of people involved.
But then we have Mälardalen University,Silvia, adding the more scientific
aspects to it and also looking forthe behaviour changes connected to
introduction of IoT technology.
Then we have the branch organisationfor the municipalities
(03:00):
involved in waste managementin Sweden, of Avfall Sverige, Waste Sweden.
They are also eager to distribute theknowledge and the results that we capture
in this project to other municipalities.
-Do you want to add something to this?-Yes.
What was important, I think,for this project, and also the perspective
(03:24):
that maybe I bring as an academic,if we can say so, is really this
shifting the focus from technical solutiononly to really thinking about how
technical solutions reconfiguresand affects working practises.
(03:47):
Our attention is really on this, not juston what sensors or what other solutions
could be relevant,but more our perspective.
It’s first of all, to understandhow the work actually is done
within the company and what solutionscould be meaningful in order to make this
(04:13):
working practises work better in a sense.
I think it's really … the added valueof this project is really to have
this double side, some technical,but especially connected to more
social technical, we would say, aspect.
(04:35):
When did the project startand when is it planned to end?
Yes, so the project is rather short.
It started in February 2022, and itwill last until the end of January 2023.
How is the project going?
Well, almost according to schedule.
(05:00):
We made about 15 interviews withkey people within the organisation to
listen how they consider their operationsworking today, their perspectives
on possibilities of using IoT.
We also have been in contactwith several companies providing
IoT solutions for waste managementand for other businesses as well.
(05:21):
The waste management business is ratherconservative, I would say, after …
We've been working in it for 15 years.
Change takes time.
A very important aspect is actuallythe people working in the organisation,
how they view the new technologyand how could working procedures
be changed and so on.
(05:42):
But also for the impact from waste, wehave to rely on the public, on the people
generating waste and sorting their waste,trying to affect their behaviour.
If you can capture data in a better wayby IoT and give feedback to the those who
generate waste and sort waste, thenwe could reach our environmental goals
(06:04):
in a better way as well.
Yes.
I think what Thomas saysis really important and interesting.
I wanted to add that … Because you ask,Nicolai, what's the problem, actually?
And so you ask usto formulate the problem.
And what we have seen that there isa need within the organisation
(06:32):
to move from working according to plan,from working according to plan to working
according to needs, to what they need.
This shift is problematic becauseit requires a certain flexibility that
(06:53):
for the moment it's harder to achieve.
-It's in this sense that …-Is this just for Swedish actors
or is this in general in the world?
For sure, it concerns that company.
Maybe Thomas can answer betterto this because he has a wider experience
(07:13):
on other waste management companies.
But in particular, this idea of shiftingfrom plan to needs is a tricky one.
For sure, they take also inspirationsin order to look forward
(07:35):
from the private sector.
There are different peoplein the organisation that come
from the private sector, and theyhave experienced another way of working,
which is more flexible, more havinga capacity to change according to needs.
(07:57):
This is still tricky and hard for them,for a public organisation that has
a certain way of models within a certain
structure and a way of functioning.
(08:18):
Well, the waste management businessin general is rather traditional.
I mean, it's a heavymachinery working every day.
I think we have about 50 garbage truckscollecting waste every day.
We have in Vafabmiljö18 recycling yards.
It's a huge organisation, heavy machinery.
We've done this in this way all the time.So why change it?
(08:41):
Because it works.
Yes, I think that part of the problemis that in a way, it's a company
that has already worked for a long timethe way that it's working.
But now there are new challenges thatare coming, and that is also why there is
(09:03):
really a need to change working practisesand maybe with the aid of technologies.
In particular, there isreally dire straits.
There are economic, for sure,conditions that push to really
become more efficient.
(09:24):
That is for sure.
But also there areecological also aspects.
For example, I remember somebodysaying that for the moment
we drive too much, for example.
We are an environmental friendlycompany because we actually
(09:45):
do a very important jobfor the environment, so to say.
But at the same time,the emissions also that the company
itself is producingduring the activity is also something
that has to be worked upon.
(10:06):
Also, I would say that there isanother input for change that is the need
to reduce residual waste, which has to be
burned in the local energy power plant.
Do you want to add somethingto the driving forces aspect?
Well, talking about the driving forces,as Silvia mentioned, it's
(10:30):
much harder the circumstances todaythan it has been before.
We have a board of politicians.
They don't want to raise the feesfor the waste collection
and treatment, of course.
This is because the companies themselvesare run by the public authorities.
The politicians siton the boards, right?
Yes.
The politicians, they don'twant to raise the fees, of course
(10:52):
towards the publics forthe collection and treatment of waste.
That's the driving force,to be as efficient as possible.
In today's world, how many peopleare affected by this problem
that you're trying to solve?
I would say that everybody,the whole public.
I mean, we are serving the whole publicwith our services of collection
(11:15):
and treatment of waste, and trying tominimise waste and increase recycling.
Everybody is generating waste, actually.
It involves everybodyin the society, I would say.
Yes, I agree with that.
I mean, waste managementis really a huge problem today.
And because we have to facea shift in paradigm from linear economy,
(11:42):
which means produce, consume, and disposetowards a new mindset and new processes
that look more towards circularity.
But also, I would I would say thatthe main goal would be, even before
(12:04):
the circular, it is really to reduce,to try to reduce waste, which is
the first step in the hierarchy of waste.
To reduce is the first goal actually longbefore recycling and reduce.
I would say that economics and environmentgoes hand in hand in this case.
(12:26):
I mean, if we can be more efficient inour the logistics and all the operations,
we can save money there.
We can use those resources for campaigningtowards less waste, more recycling, etc.
In this problem, I believe thatmost companies have been trying
to obviously reduce the wasteand so on in different ways.
(12:47):
How do you think the datawill change these facts?
Well, we are looking upon what datawe can capture, actually,
how people are generating wasteand how they are sorting.
If we can give them a feedbackrather immediately upon their behaviour.
They can see also that they couldimprove by sorting better, and then
(13:09):
they also could save moneyby sorting better and so on.
So a quick responseand feedback to the public.
Do you guys believe that youcan achieve a perfect circularity
in the future by proceeding on this paththat you've set forward on?
Well, that's an ambitious goal,but of course, we are aiming
for that, I would say.
(13:30):
As a social scientist,we are never so optimistic.
I would say that data can improve,can be a way of improving.
As Thomas was saying, thisfeedback between what the
workers every day are doingwhen they collect waste and what they see,
(13:55):
for example, if something is wrongwith the bins, the containers,
but also to provide a directfeedback to the client.
I still have a problem with “client”because for me it's all citizens.
(14:16):
But there is also another issue,how data can actually
improve the activities.
Having a more efficient view ofa use of data within the company.
In order to improvehow the activity is done.
(14:39):
For example, there is a big issuein this optimisation of the routes.
Now, as I said, it's done in a morestandardised manner,
and it would definitely be betterif it was much more fitting to really
(15:05):
the needs of where weshould collect the waste today
according to their level offullness of their containers, for example.
For the moment, there is ...
(15:26):
Of course, there is data in the company.
There is a lot of data, but the pointis that we are fragmented for the moment.
We are in different files,in different Excel files.
The point would be how to make themmatch and work together
(15:49):
in a more homogeneous way.
That would be also to … not justto generate a new data, but having
a better use of existing data.
That's a very important perspective.
I think we can combine datathat we already have, are generating
(16:09):
in the business, in the operations,in new ways to learn more.
I think that we also can see patternsover time and the differences between
different housing areas, how much wasteis generated, what kinds of waste and so on
and how this also differs over time.
(16:32):
Okay, so now we're going to jump intothe next section of this, the solution.
How did you initially expect to solvethis problem that you have identified?
The idea is, as I said, to shift the focusfrom technology to working practices,
(16:53):
which means that technologiesare a part of the working practices.
In order to understandhow technologies can be an added value,
it's really important to understandhow the work is done today.
And then to see what kind of ...
(17:15):
According to what is already there,we can think about what solutions
can be meaningful and understoodand improve the actual working practises.
So that is our position.
(17:36):
And I see that in our empirical field,
we needed to make this shift and to put
aside actually all these sensors and allkinds of fancy solutions that are
on the market in order to grasp reallywhat these people are actually doing
(18:00):
and what hinders them in orderto achieve their task and so on.
So we make a step backward in a way.
I think it's alsothe most interesting thing to do.
Now I have a little bit forgottenabout the sensors, but it will come back.
(18:23):
But this is our position, and I think itremains a little bit the same
There is no change in this position,our starting position.
We are a preparatory projectand our aim is to formulate IoT strategy,
a platform for IoT strategy.
(18:45):
How could we approach this matter andimplement new technology,
but from the perspective of how we canoptimise our working procedures and so on
and the impact on the outside world,so to say, on those who generate
waste and sort waste as well.
I mean, many companies hasintroduced sensors in bins to see
(19:07):
and optimise the routes, the logistics.
That's a low-hanging fruit.
But we are trying to have a bit moreof a holistic approach to this matter.
You're working more with available datathat's already there, but …
We interviewed people in the organisationand we have found that there is already
a lot of data that is generatedfrom the daily operations.
(19:29):
But as Silvia mentioned before, they'refragmentated and they're not combined in
a way that they could be combined to givea better picture of the operations
and the impact of the operations.
After starting your project,have you run into any issues
(19:50):
in terms of false assumptionsthat made you rethink your approach,
or is everything going just as planned?
I would say that our approachhas not really been reconsidered.
I think it still works.
But at least from my side, I was surprisedof something else actually that
(20:14):
concerns really what does it mean to workwithin the sector of waste management.
I've been working a little bitbefore, so moving to Sweden and France,
for example, in this sector.
I can see really a difference in reallythe appreciations and understanding
(20:38):
of what does it mean to bea worker in working with waste.
In the south of Europe, I would saythat there is a certain devaluation of
the work itself because of two reasons.
On one side, you work with the dirtiness,something that smells bad, you're outside
(20:59):
It's very physical, so you work outsideall the year round, so with bad
weather, good weather, and so on.
But also, I would say that very oftenin South Italy or France,
the working conditions are not that good.
(21:20):
So very long working hours, very physicalwork, very invisible work as well.
Here, I discovered a newsituation actually.
Where this working with waste is
(21:42):
not devaluated.
The working conditions are rathergood, from what I understand,
not so long working hours, very goodprotection from labour organisations.
That was interesting to see.
And in a way, it's really...
I don't know exactly how this elementwill affect our results.
(22:10):
But in any case,I've been making some observations close
to the workers that go aroundand picking up the bins and so on.
And I see that there is a nostalgy
from old good times because in the past,
(22:35):
it seemed that this work was evenbetter, even better protected,
and they had even better conditions.
Those who have been working therefor 20, 30 years, they see now that
these working conditions arebeing degraded and becoming worse.
(22:55):
This also makes an impactin this idea of change because it means
changing into worse conditions where youlook more at efficiency, more at results.
Well, being a garbage driver,that was a very well-paid
(23:18):
and respected job before.
But they drove their own routein a statistic way all the time.
They felt that they were freeto do what they wanted to do.
Now we're looking upon how they are movingto optimise the routes, etc.
Of course, they feel thatthey are more observed in their work.
(23:42):
Fifteen years ago, the recruitmentof staff to the recycling yard
that was garbage driversthat got bad back or been hurt
or something like that in their jobs.
They were replaced thereto the recycling yards.
But now when we are makingrecruitments, we are looking for people
with experience from service sectors.
(24:05):
We meet people at the recycling yards, weinform them, we try to influence their
behaviour and so on to sort better, etc.
Working with the solution,and exploring it …
What type of data have youencountered that has the most impact
for the waste disposal company?
One perspective, it's about the logistics.
I mean, it's a huge heavy machinerycollecting waste all the time.
(24:28):
Can we optimise there?
We can save a lot of money and alsominimise impact on the environment
if we drive more efficiently.
But then we have the behaviouramong the public, those who
generate waste and sort waste.
Can we get better dataon that behaviour and give that feedback
to them and make an impact on them sothey generate less waste and sort better?
(24:55):
Then we can reach ourenvironmental goals better.
One can also ask what data is missing,
maybe, because that is also a big deal,
actually, in the organisations,meaning that
(25:17):
there is really data missing from veryimportant things, for example,
the numbers of containers that the companyhas, where they are, in what conditions.
For the moment, this data is missing.
They are actually working on thisbecause, of course, the company
(25:39):
is working with this tools.
For the moment, it has been hard tomap them, to have control on them.
But also, for example, data thatIs missing can be also, for example,
from each household's bin, not just
(26:05):
for the level of fullness, but also,
for example, in order to be able to say,okay, we have emptied that bin today.
There is no possibility to trace,to track this job, which is, of course,
(26:26):
important for the company also tosay, okay, we have done the job, and also
to have a feedback to the client in casethere are also complaints and so on.
So I think that alsothe missing data is an issue.
So in terms of encouraging the endusers, the customers, the citizens to
(26:49):
change their waste management behaviour.
Do you think that there are any measuresor incentives that a waste disposal
company needs to implement?
Well, what we have been working with, Ithink this will be a question for Sylvia,
I think, on behaviour changes.
But what we have been working withis actually giving some consequences
(27:11):
on the behaviour.
I mean, you can choose if yousort your waste or not sort your waste.
You get actually a lower fee if you sortyour waste, than if you put everything
in the bin for burnable waste.
We also give feedback.
If we can see that people are sortingbadly or wrongly, they can get a message
(27:38):
about that and also get a punishmentwith a higher fee for that.
I think that at Vafab, we arestill in mid conditions.
We try to communicate.
Our goal is first of allto improve that system.
Because for the moment, and as I said,I was just at the side of the driver
(28:01):
when we took our 6 hour tour.
The driver is taking a lot of noteson his pad of all possible things that
he sees wrong in collecting the waste.
For example,there is plastic in the bio waste.
(28:28):
Of course, this is wrong because the biosof the matavfall, the bio waste is going to
be used in order to produce the biogas.
Of course, there should be just foodand other organic residues.
(28:49):
But another problem is, for examplein the rest, so what is not sorted.
There is, for example, things thatshould be sorted, like a glass or metals.
If there was this possibility togive a direct feedback to the household
(29:13):
saying, okay, look, we have founda glass of bottle in your residues.
That is wrong because you have thepossibility to sort it out and that is
what you should do.But here, I think we have
(29:35):
also to make a step back.
As Thomas said, we are end of pipewhen we talk about waste management.
I think that not everything can be doneby a company which is end of pipe.
(29:56):
Other actions should be taken far aheadfrom other actors as well.
Those that are responsible at the end ofhaving good ecological results,
for example, at the level of the city.
(30:20):
One possibility ofmaking some impact on those who generate
waste would be to give them feedbackon statistics, on how much waste they have
generated, how well they have sorted aswell,
so they can get this data for theirenvironmental reports,
for example, companies.
(30:41):
Yes, I agree.
I think that now there is so much workthat has been at city level
to show that you are good in achievingthe environmental goals or the SDGs.
So I think that waste shouldbe really one of the central element also
for a city to say (31:03):
“We are doing well”.
So what learnings and insightshave come out of the work
done in the project up until now?
I would say that,at least from my side,
I realised that there is already withinthe company, really this consciousness
(31:25):
of things that need to be changed,to be improved, and if I think
about where are they now, Iwould say that they see the need,
and I think they have alsosomehow collected the resources
(31:45):
also to go into a change.
But I see that it's stillrather unclear how to go into that.
I think that there has been already someactions done with the different managers.
(32:06):
Starting up from the management level
in order to … I think it was also
the mission that the former directorwas really pushing towards.
First we have to have the managerson board and then … Okay.
(32:30):
Then going lower down.
In terms of the results, the aim ofthe project is to produce an IoT strategy
for the waste disposal company.
But what does that mean?
What is an IoT strategy?
Well, I would say that when you hearthe word IoT strategy, you might focus on
(32:53):
the technology, IoT technology.
But the strategy is how to implementtechnology that serves the operations
in a good manner.
Then we are talking about methodsand approaches and getting
the people to use the technologyand how to implement it in a good way.
(33:14):
It's a lot about actually the procedures,how to implement new solutions
in the operations, I would say.
Yes.
Now I'm wondering if the natural resultof this project after having done
this journey, it will be really likean IoT strategy or maybe something else.
(33:38):
Because as we have said, we have beenfocusing so much on how the work is done,
first to understand what the processesare and how they could be improved.
I'm wondering if the focusis still technology or something else.
It's really the work in itself and to tryto really go a little bit deeper
(34:04):
in describing it and try to pinpoint somebottlenecks that maybe don't depend
on technology and maybe don't …The solution is not forcedly connected to
the adoption of a technology.
In a way, it will be a little bitharder, I would say, from our side,
(34:27):
but maybe more interesting because,okay, it's not a quick fix.
Yeah, I agree.
I think there's a danger,if we focus too much on technology
when we are talking about IoT strategyor mainly talking about technology.
I mean, there can be splendid technicalsolutions, but it's people
(34:49):
that has to implement them,use them, accept them, etc.
How will the results of the projectimpact society in the long term?
The way that I see it,the one important result
would be to make this work visible.
I think that still waste managementis a very invisible sector.
(35:15):
But what happens if we had an ideaor so … What is happening afterwards?
Where is this part of ourselves?Where is it going?
What is happening?
Who is taking care of it.
I think also talking with relativesor friends, there is an idea that there
(35:39):
is a perfect system just after our bin.
There is somebody that is doingthe perfect job of taking our garbage
and putting it in the right ...
No, it's us.
There is not this perfect system.
(35:59):
I think that for me, thatwould be just already a great result
bringing a little bit moreof accountability of the systems.
Yeah, and of course, also how thenthe digitalization can improve and so on.
(36:20):
But I think that to feel a little bitthis huge gap between, I would say,
citizens and their garbage and
how this really impacts at the end,
the environment, but also our health.
(36:40):
Because, of course, we are talkingabout emissions and we are talking about
good living conditions in cities.
That would be, for me,already a huge result.
I'm thinking that the aimfor us when we are introducing
new technology or changingworking procedures etc.
(37:01):
Well, the aim when we areintroducing new technology or new working
procedures,the overall aim and goal must be to lower
impact on environment from wasteand to be as efficient as possible in all
our operations, collection and treatmentof waste, but also in information towards
the public and planningand optimising in different ways.
(37:25):
What would you like our audienceto do after listening
to this podcast?
I hope that they will be interested, atleast in knowing more about the project
and knowing more about our work.
But in any case, raising awareness.
(37:46):
Of course, Thomas and Iare very passionate in
this project and this topic.
We would be also very happyto answer questions and to discuss.
You're very welcome to shareyour experiences with us as well.
I mean, rights and wrongs,so we can learn from you as well.
Last but not least, whatshould the next project focus on?
(38:09):
From my side, I would say, go deeperinto what we have already been doing.
On the other side, I think it wouldbe really good to expand to other actors
and to have a broader view also.
As we said, it's a municipal company.
Of course, we have to get in contactalso with the other actors that are
(38:34):
involved, but now for the moment, silent.
No, I agree.
I think it's a lot about how to implementnew technology in a proper way
in an organisation, in operations.
I mean, technology is available,but it's about, as we said before,
(38:55):
I mean, the hardware doesn'twork without the software, so to say.
All right.
Well, thank you so much forcoming to our podcast and sharing
your insights about your project.
I hope that many of our audiencecontact you to follow up
and ask questions and engage.
-Thank you so much for coming.-Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Hello everyone, and welcometo the IoT Sweden podcast.
Today, we are visited bythe BAIT Project or BITE Project.
Let's see if I'm right.
Please introduce yourself.
My name is Thomas Nylund,and I'm working as a Senior Strategist.
and Advisor at Vafabmiljö.
(00:21):
It's an association formed by12 municipalities with responsibility
for the municipal waste managementin these 12 municipalities.
Yes, hi.
My name is Silvia Bruzzone, so I'ma Senior Lecturer at the Mälardalen University.
So Department of Organisation and Management.
Okay, so you come from the BAIT project.
(00:42):
-Could you please introduce the project?-Yes.
The BAIT project has the intentof understanding how internet
of things can improve activitieswithin the waste management sector,
especially within Vafabmiljö.
In particular.
The main goal would be to developan EU strategy as a final result.
(01:11):
All right.
What's the name of the projectand what does the acronym…
What does the acronym stand for?
So BAIT stands forBättre Avfallshantering med IoT.
So in Swedish, and in Englishit's like improved waste management
with the Internet of Things.
(01:31):
That's good that you tookit in English as well.
I didn't realise it wasin Swedish, the acronym.
What type of project is this?
It's a preparation project.
We're aiming to formulate a strategy forIoT for the waste management business.
And we have a holistic approach.
(01:51):
Many in the business have focusedon sensors in bins and containers
to optimise logistics.
But we are looking at if we can capturedata over time, over longer periods,
and use the data for better planning,optimising the whole system,
and also to make prognosis, forecasts,and also get feedback to the customers,
(02:14):
those who generate waste.
Could we affect their behaviourin sorting better, for example?
Who are the partners in the projectand what are their roles in general?
Well, the problem owner isthe Association for Waste Management.
Vafabmiljö, with responsibilityfor collection and treatment of waste
in these 12 municipalities.
(02:37):
It's a huge organisationwith a lot of people involved.
But then we have Mälardalen University,Silvia, adding the more scientific
aspects to it and also looking forthe behaviour changes connected to
introduction of IoT technology.
Then we have the branch organisationfor the municipalities
(03:00):
involved in waste managementin Sweden, of Avfall Sverige, Waste Sweden.
They are also eager to distribute theknowledge and the results that we capture
in this project to other municipalities.
-Do you want to add something to this?-Yes.
What was important, I think,for this project, and also the perspective
(03:24):
that maybe I bring as an academic,if we can say so, is really this
shifting the focus from technical solutiononly to really thinking about how
technical solutions reconfiguresand affects working practises.
(03:47):
Our attention is really on this, not juston what sensors or what other solutions
could be relevant,but more our perspective.
It’s first of all, to understandhow the work actually is done
within the company and what solutionscould be meaningful in order to make this
(04:13):
working practises work better in a sense.
I think it's really … the added valueof this project is really to have
this double side, some technical,but especially connected to more
social technical, we would say, aspect.
(04:35):
When did the project startand when is it planned to end?
Yes, so the project is rather short.
It started in February 2022, and itwill last until the end of January 2023.
How is the project going?
Well, almost according to schedule.
(05:00):
We made about 15 interviews withkey people within the organisation to
listen how they consider their operationsworking today, their perspectives
on possibilities of using IoT.
We also have been in contactwith several companies providing
IoT solutions for waste managementand for other businesses as well.
(05:21):
The waste management business is ratherconservative, I would say, after …
We've been working in it for 15 years.
Change takes time.
A very important aspect is actuallythe people working in the organisation,
how they view the new technologyand how could working procedures
be changed and so on.
(05:42):
But also for the impact from waste, wehave to rely on the public, on the people
generating waste and sorting their waste,trying to affect their behaviour.
If you can capture data in a better wayby IoT and give feedback to the those who
generate waste and sort waste, thenwe could reach our environmental goals
(06:04):
in a better way as well.
Yes.
I think what Thomas saysis really important and interesting.
I wanted to add that … Because you ask,Nicolai, what's the problem, actually?
And so you ask usto formulate the problem.
And what we have seen that there isa need within the organisation
(06:32):
to move from working according to plan,from working according to plan to working
according to needs, to what they need.
This shift is problematic becauseit requires a certain flexibility that
(06:53):
for the moment it's harder to achieve.
-It's in this sense that …-Is this just for Swedish actors
or is this in general in the world?
For sure, it concerns that company.
Maybe Thomas can answer betterto this because he has a wider experience
(07:13):
on other waste management companies.
But in particular, this idea of shiftingfrom plan to needs is a tricky one.
For sure, they take also inspirationsin order to look forward
(07:35):
from the private sector.
There are different peoplein the organisation that come
from the private sector, and theyhave experienced another way of working,
which is more flexible, more havinga capacity to change according to needs.
(07:57):
This is still tricky and hard for them,for a public organisation that has
a certain way of models within a certain
structure and a way of functioning.
(08:18):
Well, the waste management businessin general is rather traditional.
I mean, it's a heavymachinery working every day.
I think we have about 50 garbage truckscollecting waste every day.
We have in Vafabmiljö18 recycling yards.
It's a huge organisation, heavy machinery.
We've done this in this way all the time.So why change it?
(08:41):
Because it works.
Yes, I think that part of the problemis that in a way, it's a company
that has already worked for a long timethe way that it's working.
But now there are new challenges thatare coming, and that is also why there is
(09:03):
really a need to change working practisesand maybe with the aid of technologies.
In particular, there isreally dire straits.
There are economic, for sure,conditions that push to really
become more efficient.
(09:24):
That is for sure.
But also there areecological also aspects.
For example, I remember somebodysaying that for the moment
we drive too much, for example.
We are an environmental friendlycompany because we actually
(09:45):
do a very important jobfor the environment, so to say.
But at the same time,the emissions also that the company
itself is producingduring the activity is also something
that has to be worked upon.
(10:06):
Also, I would say that there isanother input for change that is the need
to reduce residual waste, which has to be
burned in the local energy power plant.
Do you want to add somethingto the driving forces aspect?
Well, talking about the driving forces,as Silvia mentioned, it's
(10:30):
much harder the circumstances todaythan it has been before.
We have a board of politicians.
They don't want to raise the feesfor the waste collection
and treatment, of course.
This is because the companies themselvesare run by the public authorities.
The politicians siton the boards, right?
Yes.
The politicians, they don'twant to raise the fees, of course
(10:52):
towards the publics forthe collection and treatment of waste.
That's the driving force,to be as efficient as possible.
In today's world, how many peopleare affected by this problem
that you're trying to solve?
I would say that everybody,the whole public.
I mean, we are serving the whole publicwith our services of collection
(11:15):
and treatment of waste, and trying tominimise waste and increase recycling.
Everybody is generating waste, actually.
It involves everybodyin the society, I would say.
Yes, I agree with that.
I mean, waste managementis really a huge problem today.
And because we have to facea shift in paradigm from linear economy,
(11:42):
which means produce, consume, and disposetowards a new mindset and new processes
that look more towards circularity.
But also, I would I would say thatthe main goal would be, even before
(12:04):
the circular, it is really to reduce,to try to reduce waste, which is
the first step in the hierarchy of waste.
To reduce is the first goal actually longbefore recycling and reduce.
I would say that economics and environmentgoes hand in hand in this case.
(12:26):
I mean, if we can be more efficient inour the logistics and all the operations,
we can save money there.
We can use those resources for campaigningtowards less waste, more recycling, etc.
In this problem, I believe thatmost companies have been trying
to obviously reduce the wasteand so on in different ways.
(12:47):
How do you think the datawill change these facts?
Well, we are looking upon what datawe can capture, actually,
how people are generating wasteand how they are sorting.
If we can give them a feedbackrather immediately upon their behaviour.
They can see also that they couldimprove by sorting better, and then
(13:09):
they also could save moneyby sorting better and so on.
So a quick responseand feedback to the public.
Do you guys believe that youcan achieve a perfect circularity
in the future by proceeding on this paththat you've set forward on?
Well, that's an ambitious goal,but of course, we are aiming
for that, I would say.
(13:30):
As a social scientist,we are never so optimistic.
I would say that data can improve,can be a way of improving.
As Thomas was saying, thisfeedback between what the
workers every day are doingwhen they collect waste and what they see,
(13:55):
for example, if something is wrongwith the bins, the containers,
but also to provide a directfeedback to the client.
I still have a problem with “client”because for me it's all citizens.
(14:16):
But there is also another issue,how data can actually
improve the activities.
Having a more efficient view ofa use of data within the company.
In order to improvehow the activity is done.
(14:39):
For example, there is a big issuein this optimisation of the routes.
Now, as I said, it's done in a morestandardised manner,
and it would definitely be betterif it was much more fitting to really
(15:05):
the needs of where weshould collect the waste today
according to their level offullness of their containers, for example.
For the moment, there is ...
(15:26):
Of course, there is data in the company.
There is a lot of data, but the pointis that we are fragmented for the moment.
We are in different files,in different Excel files.
The point would be how to make themmatch and work together
(15:49):
in a more homogeneous way.
That would be also to … not justto generate a new data, but having
a better use of existing data.
That's a very important perspective.
I think we can combine datathat we already have, are generating
(16:09):
in the business, in the operations,in new ways to learn more.
I think that we also can see patternsover time and the differences between
different housing areas, how much wasteis generated, what kinds of waste and so on
and how this also differs over time.
(16:32):
Okay, so now we're going to jump intothe next section of this, the solution.
How did you initially expect to solvethis problem that you have identified?
The idea is, as I said, to shift the focusfrom technology to working practices,
(16:53):
which means that technologiesare a part of the working practices.
In order to understandhow technologies can be an added value,
it's really important to understandhow the work is done today.
And then to see what kind of ...
(17:15):
According to what is already there,we can think about what solutions
can be meaningful and understoodand improve the actual working practises.
So that is our position.
(17:36):
And I see that in our empirical field,
we needed to make this shift and to put
aside actually all these sensors and allkinds of fancy solutions that are
on the market in order to grasp reallywhat these people are actually doing
(18:00):
and what hinders them in orderto achieve their task and so on.
So we make a step backward in a way.
I think it's alsothe most interesting thing to do.
Now I have a little bit forgottenabout the sensors, but it will come back.
(18:23):
But this is our position, and I think itremains a little bit the same
There is no change in this position,our starting position.
We are a preparatory projectand our aim is to formulate IoT strategy,
a platform for IoT strategy.
(18:45):
How could we approach this matter andimplement new technology,
but from the perspective of how we canoptimise our working procedures and so on
and the impact on the outside world,so to say, on those who generate
waste and sort waste as well.
I mean, many companies hasintroduced sensors in bins to see
(19:07):
and optimise the routes, the logistics.
That's a low-hanging fruit.
But we are trying to have a bit moreof a holistic approach to this matter.
You're working more with available datathat's already there, but …
We interviewed people in the organisationand we have found that there is already
a lot of data that is generatedfrom the daily operations.
(19:29):
But as Silvia mentioned before, they'refragmentated and they're not combined in
a way that they could be combined to givea better picture of the operations
and the impact of the operations.
After starting your project,have you run into any issues
(19:50):
in terms of false assumptionsthat made you rethink your approach,
or is everything going just as planned?
I would say that our approachhas not really been reconsidered.
I think it still works.
But at least from my side, I was surprisedof something else actually that
(20:14):
concerns really what does it mean to workwithin the sector of waste management.
I've been working a little bitbefore, so moving to Sweden and France,
for example, in this sector.
I can see really a difference in reallythe appreciations and understanding
(20:38):
of what does it mean to bea worker in working with waste.
In the south of Europe, I would saythat there is a certain devaluation of
the work itself because of two reasons.
On one side, you work with the dirtiness,something that smells bad, you're outside
(20:59):
It's very physical, so you work outsideall the year round, so with bad
weather, good weather, and so on.
But also, I would say that very oftenin South Italy or France,
the working conditions are not that good.
(21:20):
So very long working hours, very physicalwork, very invisible work as well.
Here, I discovered a newsituation actually.
Where this working with waste is
(21:42):
not devaluated.
The working conditions are rathergood, from what I understand,
not so long working hours, very goodprotection from labour organisations.
That was interesting to see.
And in a way, it's really...
I don't know exactly how this elementwill affect our results.
(22:10):
But in any case,I've been making some observations close
to the workers that go aroundand picking up the bins and so on.
And I see that there is a nostalgy
from old good times because in the past,
(22:35):
it seemed that this work was evenbetter, even better protected,
and they had even better conditions.
Those who have been working therefor 20, 30 years, they see now that
these working conditions arebeing degraded and becoming worse.
(22:55):
This also makes an impactin this idea of change because it means
changing into worse conditions where youlook more at efficiency, more at results.
Well, being a garbage driver,that was a very well-paid
(23:18):
and respected job before.
But they drove their own routein a statistic way all the time.
They felt that they were freeto do what they wanted to do.
Now we're looking upon how they are movingto optimise the routes, etc.
Of course, they feel thatthey are more observed in their work.
(23:42):
Fifteen years ago, the recruitmentof staff to the recycling yard
that was garbage driversthat got bad back or been hurt
or something like that in their jobs.
They were replaced thereto the recycling yards.
But now when we are makingrecruitments, we are looking for people
with experience from service sectors.
(24:05):
We meet people at the recycling yards, weinform them, we try to influence their
behaviour and so on to sort better, etc.
Working with the solution,and exploring it …
What type of data have youencountered that has the most impact
for the waste disposal company?
One perspective, it's about the logistics.
I mean, it's a huge heavy machinerycollecting waste all the time.
(24:28):
Can we optimise there?
We can save a lot of money and alsominimise impact on the environment
if we drive more efficiently.
But then we have the behaviouramong the public, those who
generate waste and sort waste.
Can we get better dataon that behaviour and give that feedback
to them and make an impact on them sothey generate less waste and sort better?
(24:55):
Then we can reach ourenvironmental goals better.
One can also ask what data is missing,
maybe, because that is also a big deal,
actually, in the organisations,meaning that
(25:17):
there is really data missing from veryimportant things, for example,
the numbers of containers that the companyhas, where they are, in what conditions.
For the moment, this data is missing.
They are actually working on thisbecause, of course, the company
(25:39):
is working with this tools.
For the moment, it has been hard tomap them, to have control on them.
But also, for example, data thatIs missing can be also, for example,
from each household's bin, not just
(26:05):
for the level of fullness, but also,
for example, in order to be able to say,okay, we have emptied that bin today.
There is no possibility to trace,to track this job, which is, of course,
(26:26):
important for the company also tosay, okay, we have done the job, and also
to have a feedback to the client in casethere are also complaints and so on.
So I think that alsothe missing data is an issue.
So in terms of encouraging the endusers, the customers, the citizens to
(26:49):
change their waste management behaviour.
Do you think that there are any measuresor incentives that a waste disposal
company needs to implement?
Well, what we have been working with, Ithink this will be a question for Sylvia,
I think, on behaviour changes.
But what we have been working withis actually giving some consequences
(27:11):
on the behaviour.
I mean, you can choose if yousort your waste or not sort your waste.
You get actually a lower fee if you sortyour waste, than if you put everything
in the bin for burnable waste.
We also give feedback.
If we can see that people are sortingbadly or wrongly, they can get a message
(27:38):
about that and also get a punishmentwith a higher fee for that.
I think that at Vafab, we arestill in mid conditions.
We try to communicate.
Our goal is first of allto improve that system.
Because for the moment, and as I said,I was just at the side of the driver
(28:01):
when we took our 6 hour tour.
The driver is taking a lot of noteson his pad of all possible things that
he sees wrong in collecting the waste.
For example,there is plastic in the bio waste.
(28:28):
Of course, this is wrong because the biosof the matavfall, the bio waste is going to
be used in order to produce the biogas.
Of course, there should be just foodand other organic residues.
(28:49):
But another problem is, for examplein the rest, so what is not sorted.
There is, for example, things thatshould be sorted, like a glass or metals.
If there was this possibility togive a direct feedback to the household
(29:13):
saying, okay, look, we have founda glass of bottle in your residues.
That is wrong because you have thepossibility to sort it out and that is
what you should do.But here, I think we have
(29:35):
also to make a step back.
As Thomas said, we are end of pipewhen we talk about waste management.
I think that not everything can be doneby a company which is end of pipe.
(29:56):
Other actions should be taken far aheadfrom other actors as well.
Those that are responsible at the end ofhaving good ecological results,
for example, at the level of the city.
(30:20):
One possibility ofmaking some impact on those who generate
waste would be to give them feedbackon statistics, on how much waste they have
generated, how well they have sorted aswell,
so they can get this data for theirenvironmental reports,
for example, companies.
(30:41):
Yes, I agree.
I think that now there is so much workthat has been at city level
to show that you are good in achievingthe environmental goals or the SDGs.
So I think that waste shouldbe really one of the central element also
for a city to say (31:03):
“We are doing well”.
So what learnings and insightshave come out of the work
done in the project up until now?
I would say that,at least from my side,
I realised that there is already withinthe company, really this consciousness
(31:25):
of things that need to be changed,to be improved, and if I think
about where are they now, Iwould say that they see the need,
and I think they have alsosomehow collected the resources
(31:45):
also to go into a change.
But I see that it's stillrather unclear how to go into that.
I think that there has been already someactions done with the different managers.
(32:06):
Starting up from the management level
in order to … I think it was also
the mission that the former directorwas really pushing towards.
First we have to have the managerson board and then … Okay.
(32:30):
Then going lower down.
In terms of the results, the aim ofthe project is to produce an IoT strategy
for the waste disposal company.
But what does that mean?
What is an IoT strategy?
Well, I would say that when you hearthe word IoT strategy, you might focus on
(32:53):
the technology, IoT technology.
But the strategy is how to implementtechnology that serves the operations
in a good manner.
Then we are talking about methodsand approaches and getting
the people to use the technologyand how to implement it in a good way.
(33:14):
It's a lot about actually the procedures,how to implement new solutions
in the operations, I would say.
Yes.
Now I'm wondering if the natural resultof this project after having done
this journey, it will be really likean IoT strategy or maybe something else.
(33:38):
Because as we have said, we have beenfocusing so much on how the work is done,
first to understand what the processesare and how they could be improved.
I'm wondering if the focusis still technology or something else.
It's really the work in itself and to tryto really go a little bit deeper
(34:04):
in describing it and try to pinpoint somebottlenecks that maybe don't depend
on technology and maybe don't …The solution is not forcedly connected to
the adoption of a technology.
In a way, it will be a little bitharder, I would say, from our side,
(34:27):
but maybe more interesting because,okay, it's not a quick fix.
Yeah, I agree.
I think there's a danger,if we focus too much on technology
when we are talking about IoT strategyor mainly talking about technology.
I mean, there can be splendid technicalsolutions, but it's people
(34:49):
that has to implement them,use them, accept them, etc.
How will the results of the projectimpact society in the long term?
The way that I see it,the one important result
would be to make this work visible.
I think that still waste managementis a very invisible sector.
(35:15):
But what happens if we had an ideaor so … What is happening afterwards?
Where is this part of ourselves?Where is it going?
What is happening?
Who is taking care of it.
I think also talking with relativesor friends, there is an idea that there
(35:39):
is a perfect system just after our bin.
There is somebody that is doingthe perfect job of taking our garbage
and putting it in the right ...
No, it's us.
There is not this perfect system.
(35:59):
I think that for me, thatwould be just already a great result
bringing a little bit moreof accountability of the systems.
Yeah, and of course, also how thenthe digitalization can improve and so on.
(36:20):
But I think that to feel a little bitthis huge gap between, I would say,
citizens and their garbage and
how this really impacts at the end,
the environment, but also our health.
(36:40):
Because, of course, we are talkingabout emissions and we are talking about
good living conditions in cities.
That would be, for me,already a huge result.
I'm thinking that the aimfor us when we are introducing
new technology or changingworking procedures etc.
(37:01):
Well, the aim when we areintroducing new technology or new working
procedures,the overall aim and goal must be to lower
impact on environment from wasteand to be as efficient as possible in all
our operations, collection and treatmentof waste, but also in information towards
the public and planningand optimising in different ways.
(37:25):
What would you like our audienceto do after listening
to this podcast?
I hope that they will be interested, atleast in knowing more about the project
and knowing more about our work.
But in any case, raising awareness.
(37:46):
Of course, Thomas and Iare very passionate in
this project and this topic.
We would be also very happyto answer questions and to discuss.
You're very welcome to shareyour experiences with us as well.
I mean, rights and wrongs,so we can learn from you as well.
Last but not least, whatshould the next project focus on?
(38:09):
From my side, I would say, go deeperinto what we have already been doing.
On the other side, I think it wouldbe really good to expand to other actors
and to have a broader view also.
As we said, it's a municipal company.
Of course, we have to get in contactalso with the other actors that are
(38:34):
involved, but now for the moment, silent.
No, I agree.
I think it's a lot about how to implementnew technology in a proper way
in an organisation, in operations.
I mean, technology is available,but it's about, as we said before,
(38:55):
I mean, the hardware doesn'twork without the software, so to say.
All right.
Well, thank you so much forcoming to our podcast and sharing
your insights about your project.
I hope that many of our audiencecontact you to follow up
and ask questions and engage.
-Thank you so much for coming.-Thank you.
Thank you very much.
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