February 4, 2023 • 36 mins
Smart City Lab is a strategic project within IoT Sweden, but even more so, it’s a platform for networking, collaborating and sharing knowledge. In this episode we get to meet Claus Popp Larsen who works at RISE, Research Institutes of Sweden, and is one of the persons that coordinates our project Smart City Lab.
Produced by: Kristin Blom
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
What is a smart city and what does it takefor a city to be smart?
And where does IoT come into play?Smart City Lab is a project
within IoT Sweden, but even more so,it's a platform for networking,
collaborating and sharing knowledge.You're listening
to the IoT Public Sector podcast.Today's episode
(00:26):
is produced by me, Kristin Blom.Today's guest is Claus Popp Larsen,
who works at RISE, Research Institutesof Sweden and is one of the persons
that coordinatesour project Smart City Lab.
First of all, warm welcome, Claus.I'm very happy you could join us today.
-Thank you. Nice to be here.-This is your first time doing a podcast.
(00:46):
-It is, yes.-So we're happy to have you here
and talk about smart citiesand how you can advance IoT
within the smart city.So tell me more about yourself
and your work.-Well, yeah, I work at RISE
where I'm focus area leaderfor connected cities.
(01:08):
And that's a kind of horizontal taskacross all the divisions at RISE.
So we can pick upthe domain knowledge
and not onlywork with the technical stuff.
but I work very much withthe cities of the municipalities
and togetherwith them trying to build capacity
(01:29):
to be able to handle data, you could say.And then, Smart City Lab
is our flagship projectwithin these activities.
And I'm leading that togetherwith the Anna Bondesson and Therese Balksjö.
Smart City Lab has been granted9 million Swedish crowns,
it’s about 900,000 euro from IoT Sweden.So you started in November of ‘21.
(01:52):
And you will end the project in Novembernext year, 2024.
-So what is exactly a smart city?-Yeah. What is it?
That's a good question. And I thinkthere are as many definitions
as people talking about Smart City.So I will try to give you my definition.
(02:13):
And other people's definitionsmight be as good.
-Yes. And different.-Yeah.
Okay.So in in my view a smart city is
maybe not just a city.It's a community,
smart city and community.But it's a place where
you can handle data,where you work with data,
(02:33):
you can share data,and you work with data-driven solutions
in order to improve life in the city,for those living there,
for those working in the city,for those working in the administration
and/or within the planetary boundariesas well.
So can you give me an exampleof something practical
(02:54):
you could do within a smart city?-Well, it could, for example, be…
If we're talking IoT,it could be something
that many municipalities are using todaywhere you measure,
the filling degreeof waste bins
so that you can emptythem once they're full instead
(03:17):
of just driving aroundand once or twice a week to empty them.
Andit has been shown that it saves
quite a lot of driving around.Its goals would be to monitor different
climate related issues like…it could be water levels.
What happens when it rains more often?How what how will this affect
(03:38):
the drainage system and so on?-Can you give an example
of what it could mean in healthcare?-Yeah. One example for healthcare
is that you have cameras.
So instead ofdriving out to check the elderly people,
whether they're okay,you sometimes do that
2 or 3 times a night.You can you can have a look
(04:02):
through the camera,and it's much less intrusive
to do that than actually cominginto people's bedrooms.
So there are so many different waysof using IoT and connected devices
that help us every day.And maybe we don't really think about it,
which is good,because it should just be something
in the background that will help usto make our lives better.
(04:23):
I mean, IoT is basically different typesof sensors that you place somewhere
around the city or in your everyday life.And those sensors generate data,
and that data can be usedto enhance people's lives
and the functionalityof a municipality, basically.
(04:44):
Exactly. Andthis is something that we’ll work with
because you can easily set up a service,like a silo service,
where you use datafor one certain application.
But what we also want to dois that we want to share this data
because maybe it cancreate value somewhere else.
And to do that,you need to work in another way
(05:05):
with data in your municipality.You need to have a much more structured
approach toto data handling and data governance.
But the value could be so much biggerthan it is today.
I mean, this is exactlywhat you're trying to do
within the smart city lab, right?-Yeah, right. Yes.
You're trying to aggravatedata and services,
(05:25):
and also to seethat not all municipalities
have to start from scratch,and they can learn from each other.
Exactly.-So can you tell me more about the design
of Smart City Lab?-Yeah. Okay.
So we are still gathering partners,
but I think we’re around20 municipalities that are partners today.
(05:47):
And we want to includemore municipalities as well.
And we're workingwith national agencies,
and we're also workingwith the suppliers to the cities.
But the core of the projectis to help the cities.
So the cities of the municipalities,they are, you could say, main customer.
And as you said,what you want to avoid
(06:08):
is that everyonewill invent their own wheel
again and again and again, becausethat's what's happening
in practice and in all these IoT projectsthat we have.
So we want to build up a basewhere you can step up from,
that wants tobuild all these building blocks
like a big Lego game,you could maybe compared with.
(06:30):
So if someone has done somethingthat works,
then build upon that instead ofdoing everything yourself again.
Yeah. And instead of paying moneyfor doing the same discovery one more time.
Exactly.
So could you tell me also whyis it called a lab?
Yeah, that's a good question.So the project is called Smart City Lab.
(06:51):
And honestly, I don't likeany of the words, because what is smart?
It's kind of misused. And city.As I said before,
it's the whole community.It's not just the city.
It's also rural areas ofmunicipalities, for example.
And then we have lab.It's not like a technical lab
where we meet to test equipment.So it's more like
(07:14):
a thought labwhere we meet to exchange ideas
and experiencesand build upon what others have done
and learn from each other.So even though I don't like the name,
really, it's kind of catchy.And once you start using it,
you don't thinkabout the words in it any longer, so…
Yeah, I think we can concludethat it's a good name and it's catchy.
(07:36):
But that what you're doingis more than the name alludes to.
It’s much more than the name.Oh, yes. Yes.
And the work you do within Smart City Lab,you said it's more than just
for the cities.It's actually for everybody
in every part of every municipality.So you also welcome
(07:59):
municipalities that have a lotof widespread citizens in rural areas.
Yes. And we have a setupwhere we talk
about ambassadors and observers.So the ambassadors are the more…
You could call it mature municipalitiesthat have
come a good way on that journey,and they kind of have an obligation
(08:21):
to help others as well. And the observers,they're more listening,
trying to learn and so on.But they can also, of course,
add their experiencesand build upon that.
And what we have learned
is that if we have this,you could call it a safe place
(08:43):
where you can meet and discuss,then the municipalities,
they want to collaborate,they are not competing.
So they are helping each other,which is very good.
And it'ssomething that we have worked hard for
to actually achieve,but I think it works now.
And we have our monthly meetings
(09:03):
and we see oftenafter monthly meeting,
2 or 3 municipalities,they team up,
because they have met someonewith a problem
that has been solved, maybe as someonesitting and thinking about the same thing
so they can just have a discussionabout this together.
How did you do? What worked,what did not work?
(09:24):
I mean,there are so many different municipalities
and they are big ones and small ones.And some of them actually
can't afford to have a lot of peopleemployed in IT or doing specific things.
So there might be just one persondoing something,
and it might be very difficultto maybe start your own IoT journey.
(09:45):
Where do you start tobuild a smart city?
And then you might want to speakto other people and get inspiration,
because you might want to holdsomebody's hand because this is difficult.
And there's so many security issuesand so many things to think about.
Yeah. No, it's so complexthat no one can do it themselves,
(10:06):
not even the big municipalities.And it would be stupid
to do everything yourself.So it's something you need to collaborate
with others on and learn from others.-You often talk
about soft digital infrastructure.Can you tell me more about that?
Yeah. So, when you talkabout infrastructure,
(10:29):
it could beon many different levels.
But when we talkabout digital infrastructure,
people often think aboutthe fibre network, sensor network,
mobile network spectrumquestions and so on.
And these are the harddigital infrastructure.
And in these, I'm it's fair to saythat Sweden
(10:51):
is one of the leading countries.So we have very good fibre penetration,
very good mobile penetration.We're a little bit behind in 5G,
which I think is okay, actually,but we need to step up a little bit.
Okay. So that's the harddigital infrastructure.
Then we have what we wantto achieve with everything.
It's all these services,all the data-driven services
(11:13):
that will, again, make life easierfor everyone in the municipality
and all these servicesthat are data-driven and so on.
But between the servicesand the hard infrastructure,
we havewhat we call soft digital infrastructure.
And it's something that ispretty similar in all municipalities.
And it's technical stufflike standards, technical frameworks.
(11:38):
it's also organisational stufflike processes,
tools, and so on.It's legal stuff
and so on and so forth.And the thing is, since they're so
similar in the municipalities,then why not develop
this soft digital infrastructure together?And it's a little bit
(11:59):
below the radar in in Swedenand in many other countries
that this is important,because
often people don't really understand,I think. Not before you start working
with these things, then you understand.“Oh, but we have another kind
of infrastructurehere that we need to take care of.”
And this is what we arehandling in Smart City Lab,
(12:20):
trying to build upthis soft digital infrastructure
together with the municipalities.And again, so they don't have to reinvent
everything themselves again and again.-But it's so complex,
because some municipalities,they have decided to go for the open data.
road, so to say.And others have chosen to have it
(12:43):
in other systems,and some have built platforms
that are built in one systemand some of them another system.
So all of these technicaland the hard infrastructure
and some of the soft infrastructure,it all looks so different.
Is it possible to find like a common wayforward for all the municipalities?
(13:03):
Yeah, I think it is.And it must be done as well.
And I thinkwe want to have openness, of course.
And opennesscan mean many different things.
Some people talk a lot about open data,open data is really good.
And it's not only somethingthat would be good
(13:24):
for municipalities to do,they need to do it.
They need to share their data.But not all data
can be shared with everyonebecause you have sensitive data,
like if it's about peopleor infrastructures
or economical values, for example,
hidden in the data.Then you may not want to open it
to anyone, but it should be possible.
(13:47):
If you get allowed to get accessto data, then it should be possible
to get access to data.So you need some kind of access control,
on that one.And that's about the data.
Then your questionabout the systems, we are working with…
You could call itan interoperability framework,
(14:09):
which ispretty much the same as in EU,
what they are trying to promote now.And this is something
that will become law with timewithin the next few years.
EU has just made a proposalon an interoperable Europe Act
that will actually enforcethat public sector
(14:31):
work within interoperabilitymuch more than they do today.
So they are forced to havea certain structure
in the systems.And it's not something
that will change everythingfrom day one, at least.
Butoften it's more like a mindset.
(14:52):
You need to think differentlywhen you have your systems.
You need to think different when youprocure systems and so on.
You need to be able to, again,avoid logging,
logging of data or vendor logging,you need to be able to share your data
so that someone else can create valueon that one.
(15:13):
So it's both thosetechnical components of course,
but it's more like a mindset.It's a cultural travel,
and organisational travel.-And of course,
this mindset and this journeyof implementing
what is going to becomelaw in a couple of years
needs to start happeningnow so that we're prepared
(15:33):
so we don't force like a wall,and that it feels
completely inaccessiblebecause we haven't prepared for it.
-And this is also something you discuss.-Yeah. This is something we discussed.
And I think many cities,they understand this
and they want to they want this to happen.But there are still so many municipalities
(15:55):
that haven't really started yet.And for them,
it will become extremely difficultwhen it comes out as a law,
as a directive from EU.Now you have to do this and maybe
you'll get like16 months to implement this,
if they haven't prepared anything.So you need to start preparing for this
now to just startthinking about and start talking about it.
(16:18):
Yeah. Like when GDPR came,we were all a bit unprepared
and it just landed in our laps.And we just quickly
had to deal with it from legal,from communication point of view,
-from like IT point of view.-Yes. Yeah.
So it would be good, of course,if we could avoid this
because this issuch a big system change as well.
-It's not just tiny things, it’s a big thing.-Exactly.
(16:44):
I've understoodthat there are almost as many ways
of dealing with IoTand digitalisation in practicality
as there are municipalities.It seems like all municipalities
are doing their own thingand being on their own journey.
Is this the case, you think?
It’s partly a philosophical question.In some way you could say yes.
(17:07):
And in other ways you could say no.I think
the more mature municipalities,they understand, again,
that they want to work with others.But there are different journeys, I think,
and we're trying to identify thesewithin Smart City Lab.
So there are different journeysdepending on, for example, size,
(17:27):
how mature you are, whether you havea municipality network or not,
and so on. And I think maybewe can boil down
these different journeysto 3 or 5 different journeys.
We're trying to do thatso that it doesn't look different,
(17:48):
because it shouldn't look differentin all municipalities.
But at the same time,once you start to implement
this in your own municipality,there are things
that you have to do yourselfwhen we can help
and other municipalities can help,and there will be
guidelines, and so on.But there are still a lot of things
(18:08):
that you need to do yourself.You need to learn to walk.
That's something that you just needto learn the hard way, you could say.
Could you give some examplesof these five streams?
Could you give 1 or 2 examples justso we understand what you mean
when you say there are five main streams,or categorisations, maybe we should say?
(18:30):
Well, I don't know if it's five
or it's three or more.We don't know yet.
but I think one example isif you're a very small municipality
and you don't have the competenceor the money
to work with this, what do you do then?Then you may need to team up
(18:51):
with others,or you do need to team up with others,
because otherwise you'll neverachieve this.
And there are different ways of doing it.And we can see that
there are many of theseassociations between municipalities
where three, five, six municipalities,they work together on IT.
(19:15):
another solution is, andit's a cool solution
that Ånge outside of Sundsvall,
all the IT will be run by Sundsvall.So from an IT point of view
and digitalisation point of view,they are included in Sundsvall municipality.
That's also a wayof doing it.
(19:37):
The way I understand itis that Ånge basically
scraps their own IT systemand just basically will
log into everything that Sundsvall is doing.So they basically will be almost
like a franchise, or …Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.
-It's very exciting.-That's very interesting.
And I thinkwe'll see more of that as well.
Then we see that there's a difference.
(20:00):
If you have a municipality network,for example, then…
What do you meanwith a municipality network?
Okay. So it'sa municipal company
owning the fibre network.And often it's…
they own the energy infrastructure.It could be the energy company,
for example.There are different constructions
(20:21):
of that, but often they havevery high technical knowledge.
So the IoT parts will often start there.And they have the competence
to run IoT,and they will do that
for their own business to,for example,
monitortheir electricity network
(20:43):
or water network or, or whatever.But then not all municipalities,
they have a municipality network.And so the starting point
needs to come from another way there.
And it's a different way.So different
journeys or different startsof the journey.
(21:04):
But then I thinkno matter how this journey…
what it looks like,then there are certain parts or components
that you should be able to master.And these components
we're trying also to identifyand to map.
So maybe it'salmost the same journey,
but youwill master the different components
(21:27):
at different timesdepending on how mature you are
and depending onhow big you are and so on.
But I’ve also understoodthat there are some different networks
within Smart City Labs.So can you tell me
about these networks?-Yeah. Okay.
So we have tried to identify,what are the
(21:47):
biggest hurdles right now?And we have done a lot of interviews
and we have experiencefrom talking to municipalities
and from previous projectsand everything.
And we have seen thatone issue is with interoperability.
So we don't have interoperability today,and we don't know
(22:09):
how to require interoperability.So this is something that we work with in
one of the networks.And it's not only something
that should be donewithin the municipality,
it's also something that should be doneor addressed at a national level.
And this connects very muchto what's happening in EU.
So it's on many different levelsthat we're working with this.
(22:32):
And interoperability,it's about standards
and about design principles.And it's something that we should just
solve, becauseonce this is in place,
then we can start this processof creating value of all our data.
And then we have solutionsthat can be portable
between municipalities and so on.So this is something
(22:53):
that we need to address.So that's one network.
Then we have a procurement network,because one of the hurdles is…
It's very hard toget an IoT platform.
How to procure somethingthat is still pretty immature?
And how to make it future proof?It's very tough, really.
(23:15):
Because the whole systemis so complex.
And in that onewe have identified different ways
of getting hold of,if you could say that,
an IoT platform or IoT capabilities.
Maybe it's not just one platform,it could be several platforms.
(23:36):
But this IoT capability. And it could belike you make a procurement
or you make your energy companyor municipality network,
they can make a direct procurement.You can do like Ånge, just
getting absorbed by a bigger municipality.You can use open source.
(23:56):
Then you don't have to makea procurement for the IoT capabilities,
but for something else instead.
So there are different ways,and I think eventually
the goal there would be thatit should be easy
to get hold of an IoT platform.And it could be through some kind
of frame agreementfrom Adda or the procurement agency.
(24:20):
Yeah, sowe're working with them as well.
So that was number two network.Then we have a network about
the suppliers,because the suppliers,
they're not allowedin our monthly meetings,
because we don't want them to…Or we want… again,
we want it to be a safe placefor the municipalities.
(24:41):
And it's not a safe placeif there are suppliers there,
because oftenthey will try to sell their solutions.
Even though it's from,from a good will.
So they're not allowed there.But we need to have this interaction
between the suppliersand the municipalities,
because they ultimatelyhave the same goal, of course,
(25:01):
but some are using equipment,and some are selling equipment.
So we have different mechanisms,for that as well.
So that's the supplier network.And then we have the IoT travel.
It's more like a forum maybethan a network,
but it's what you talkabout previously
(25:22):
with the different journeys.So what are the different journeys?
What needs what needs to be in place?And this is where we
kind of holdthe hands of the municipalities,
give them guidelines and all that.So these are the four networks
that we are working with.-And what are the challenges now
(25:43):
for Smart City Lab?
There are challenges on many levels.And I think one challenge is
to reach out, really, to get throughto the right people in the municipality
and on a national level. In some countries,this is controlled
much more from a national level.Someone will say
(26:05):
“now we do this and this and this”,but this is not how Sweden is built.
No one will forcethe municipalities to do something.
-For good and bad.-For good and bad, yeah.
But I thinkif it's infrastructure questions,
(26:27):
then it's more bad than good, because
the municipalities, again,they have the same issues
and the same challenges.So why not, at least
on a very basic infrastructure level say.“okay, this is what you have to do”?
But since this is not happening,at least not before,
(26:47):
EU will do this for usbecause we can't do it ourselves.
We need to work like bottom up.
And this is like the model in Smart City Lab,that we work together
with the municipalities andmaybe create some de facto standard
in different areas.
(27:08):
And then we can build on that one.But at some stage,
it needs to come top-down as well.
And it's almost like a fractal,because you see that
within a municipal department,you need to do this bottom-up
and top-down at the same time.You see it in the whole municipality.
You see it on a national scale.So yeah, bottom-up,
(27:30):
top-down all the time.And they need to interact.
And Smart City Lab is really a wayof putting pressure bottom-up
so that you can get the top-downat the later stage.
-Yeah, you could say so. Yeah.-What has been
the most surprising or unexpected thingwith Smart City Lab so far,
(27:54):
and how did you deal with that?-I don't know if it's
surprising in that sense,but something
that we have learned,and that even came
before we started Smart City Lab,is that in the beginning of this,
3, 4, 5 years ago, we thought, oh,
(28:15):
if we solve the technical problems,
then we solve everything.But that was naive, of course.
And it's easy to laughat that
becausethe non-technical difficulties,
they are much, much biggerthan the technical difficulties.
But then again, you need to havethe technical stuff in place
(28:36):
because otherwise you can't do anything.So it's something
that we still need to address,but it's just a small part of
the problem.-And if you could make a magic wish
on behalf of Smart City Lab,what would that be?
I think that would be thatour politicians,
both in the municipality and national,wake up and understand
(28:58):
that we need to work much more datadriven to be able
to handle our big challengesand to act accordingly, not just
say that digitalisationis important, but to act accordingly.
Yeah, and digitalisation is also a wayof dealing with climate issues
(29:20):
and dealing with a lot of connectivityand solving
what's going to… I mean,the needs for the future in many ways.
Yeah.So if we want to
handle the climate challenges,then we need to work more data-driven.
(29:41):
We need to understand. We need to measure,what is the situation today?
We need to understand, if we do something,some action, we need to measure,
does it work?We need to be able to simulate.
There's so muchdata needed to be able to do this.
And people don't reallyrealise that today,
it's still it's still immature.And I think it's because
(30:06):
if we go to the municipalities,the sustainability and
environment and climate strategist,They are very good at what they are doing,
but they kind of missthe digital parts of this.
And it's actually a problemthat we have identified,
that there's this lack of communicationwithin municipalities,
(30:28):
between those working with climateand the digital strategies.
They need to meet and to talk together,because they can help each other.
And it's like the same on national level.So it's also this a fractal
repeating itself at different levels.-You have
another two yearsto go within this project.
Of course, two years won't be enoughto solve all of these challenges.
(30:53):
Do you have any thoughts on how wecan survive
after the project has finished?-Yeah. And this is
something that we built into the project,because we need to think
about the continuation all the time.And it's not only a continuation
of the project.So if we get a continuation
(31:16):
of the project,then it will look different
from what it looks today.Because a lot of things
will happen in in two years. So it will beit will be something different.
And we don't know what it's going to be.But we have
identified a lot of components
that someone will need at a national levelto govern
(31:41):
and to maintain.And that could, for example,
be if we're talking…if we're going to the technical issues,
like, what kindof APIs should you use?
The rules for howto access data.
What kind of data modelsshould you use, and so on.
And if someone should point at this,someone should say,
(32:04):
“this is what we want to use”or “this is what we want to use”.
But there should also bea possibility to get in
and change them as well.That should be like other
we use, what's on European, global level,like standards, for example.
But something has to be adaptedto Swedish conditions
and someone will need to maintain this.There should be like a GitHub,
(32:27):
a place where you can add your comments,for example,
that someone shouldhave for all this.
Also, all these tools that we have,that we're using…
At RISE,maybe we can
make a toolor someone else can make a tool
and we can say “this fitsinto this interoperability framework
(32:51):
and the way of working”.But we cannot be the national…
actively of responsible for this one.It should be someone else.
And I think we have a list of10 or 15 different things
that should be owned and governed bya national actor,
which is not done today.And for some of them, we can say “we think
(33:15):
this should be SKR”,for example, the association
of local authorities.For some it should be
Digg, the digitalisation agency,but they're not doing it today.
And there are other examples.Yeah.
A really big,important part of the project
is to identify these gapsand how they could be overcome.
(33:39):
And then trying to seeif we can start the conversation
and see if we can force thingsto go forward,
and everybody would benefit from that.So it's very important.
Yeah, and someoneshould take responsibility
for all these different components.So that's also an important part
of the project, trying to find,who will be responsible for this?
Do you know if there's any networksresembling Smart City Lab?
(34:04):
Is there any networksresembling Smart City Lab
in other countries? Have you heard of any?-We are mostly looking at Europe,
because it’sthe same structure
and it's under the same Europeanlaws and so on.
So we know that inother countries like Denmark…
(34:28):
But it's not exactly Smart City Lab,but it's
the same activities that are done,
but done in slightly different waysand with other types of stakeholders.
I know in Finland there'ssomething like it. In the Netherlands,
you have municipality collaborationand where also research
(34:54):
institutes are involved in,in Flanders, in northern Belgium.
So there aredifferent networks,
kind of like Smart City Lab.Not exactly the same, but
doing much of the same stuff.-The need for discussing
these common issues on smart cities,it seems to be international
(35:18):
and it's the same need everywhere.-Exactly. Yeah.
So I think we're comingto the end of this podcast.
Do you think there's something I forgotto ask or something you would like to add?
-Not right now.-I think that if you're a municipality
and if you're listeningand if you're interested,
you can contact the Smart City Lab team
(35:40):
and get more information.Or if you're interested
in joining the conversations,you're welcome to do that.
Yes.And you can Google Smart City Lab
and then you'll find some information,either at RISE or IoT Sweden.
And you will findsome contact details there.
So please.Everyone is welcome.
So thank you very much, Claus.It has been a pleasure having you here.
(36:01):
Thank you.You have been listening to the IoT public sector podcast
and, Claus Popp Larsen at RISErepresenting Smart City Lab
was our guest today.Please follow us on Podbean or Spotify
or anywhere else where podcasts live.Please contact us
and follow us at LinkedIn.Search for IoT Sweden International.
(36:23):
This podcast and more about IoT Swedencan be found on our website.
IoT Sweden isa strategic innovation program
and we're hosted by Uppsala University.My name is Kristin Blom
and I'm a communication managerat IoT Sweden.
The music was written and producedby Johannes Bergenheim
exclusively for IoT Sweden.
What is a smart city and what does it takefor a city to be smart?
And where does IoT come into play?Smart City Lab is a project
within IoT Sweden, but even more so,it's a platform for networking,
collaborating and sharing knowledge.You're listening
to the IoT Public Sector podcast.Today's episode
(00:26):
is produced by me, Kristin Blom.Today's guest is Claus Popp Larsen,
who works at RISE, Research Institutesof Sweden and is one of the persons
that coordinatesour project Smart City Lab.
First of all, warm welcome, Claus.I'm very happy you could join us today.
-Thank you. Nice to be here.-This is your first time doing a podcast.
(00:46):
-It is, yes.-So we're happy to have you here
and talk about smart citiesand how you can advance IoT
within the smart city.So tell me more about yourself
and your work.-Well, yeah, I work at RISE
where I'm focus area leaderfor connected cities.
(01:08):
And that's a kind of horizontal taskacross all the divisions at RISE.
So we can pick upthe domain knowledge
and not onlywork with the technical stuff.
but I work very much withthe cities of the municipalities
and togetherwith them trying to build capacity
(01:29):
to be able to handle data, you could say.And then, Smart City Lab
is our flagship projectwithin these activities.
And I'm leading that togetherwith the Anna Bondesson and Therese Balksjö.
Smart City Lab has been granted9 million Swedish crowns,
it’s about 900,000 euro from IoT Sweden.So you started in November of ‘21.
(01:52):
And you will end the project in Novembernext year, 2024.
-So what is exactly a smart city?-Yeah. What is it?
That's a good question. And I thinkthere are as many definitions
as people talking about Smart City.So I will try to give you my definition.
(02:13):
And other people's definitionsmight be as good.
-Yes. And different.-Yeah.
Okay.So in in my view a smart city is
maybe not just a city.It's a community,
smart city and community.But it's a place where
you can handle data,where you work with data,
(02:33):
you can share data,and you work with data-driven solutions
in order to improve life in the city,for those living there,
for those working in the city,for those working in the administration
and/or within the planetary boundariesas well.
So can you give me an exampleof something practical
(02:54):
you could do within a smart city?-Well, it could, for example, be…
If we're talking IoT,it could be something
that many municipalities are using todaywhere you measure,
the filling degreeof waste bins
so that you can emptythem once they're full instead
(03:17):
of just driving aroundand once or twice a week to empty them.
Andit has been shown that it saves
quite a lot of driving around.Its goals would be to monitor different
climate related issues like…it could be water levels.
What happens when it rains more often?How what how will this affect
(03:38):
the drainage system and so on?-Can you give an example
of what it could mean in healthcare?-Yeah. One example for healthcare
is that you have cameras.
So instead ofdriving out to check the elderly people,
whether they're okay,you sometimes do that
2 or 3 times a night.You can you can have a look
(04:02):
through the camera,and it's much less intrusive
to do that than actually cominginto people's bedrooms.
So there are so many different waysof using IoT and connected devices
that help us every day.And maybe we don't really think about it,
which is good,because it should just be something
in the background that will help usto make our lives better.
(04:23):
I mean, IoT is basically different typesof sensors that you place somewhere
around the city or in your everyday life.And those sensors generate data,
and that data can be usedto enhance people's lives
and the functionalityof a municipality, basically.
(04:44):
Exactly. Andthis is something that we’ll work with
because you can easily set up a service,like a silo service,
where you use datafor one certain application.
But what we also want to dois that we want to share this data
because maybe it cancreate value somewhere else.
And to do that,you need to work in another way
(05:05):
with data in your municipality.You need to have a much more structured
approach toto data handling and data governance.
But the value could be so much biggerthan it is today.
I mean, this is exactlywhat you're trying to do
within the smart city lab, right?-Yeah, right. Yes.
You're trying to aggravatedata and services,
(05:25):
and also to seethat not all municipalities
have to start from scratch,and they can learn from each other.
Exactly.-So can you tell me more about the design
of Smart City Lab?-Yeah. Okay.
So we are still gathering partners,
but I think we’re around20 municipalities that are partners today.
(05:47):
And we want to includemore municipalities as well.
And we're workingwith national agencies,
and we're also workingwith the suppliers to the cities.
But the core of the projectis to help the cities.
So the cities of the municipalities,they are, you could say, main customer.
And as you said,what you want to avoid
(06:08):
is that everyonewill invent their own wheel
again and again and again, becausethat's what's happening
in practice and in all these IoT projectsthat we have.
So we want to build up a basewhere you can step up from,
that wants tobuild all these building blocks
like a big Lego game,you could maybe compared with.
(06:30):
So if someone has done somethingthat works,
then build upon that instead ofdoing everything yourself again.
Yeah. And instead of paying moneyfor doing the same discovery one more time.
Exactly.
So could you tell me also whyis it called a lab?
Yeah, that's a good question.So the project is called Smart City Lab.
(06:51):
And honestly, I don't likeany of the words, because what is smart?
It's kind of misused. And city.As I said before,
it's the whole community.It's not just the city.
It's also rural areas ofmunicipalities, for example.
And then we have lab.It's not like a technical lab
where we meet to test equipment.So it's more like
(07:14):
a thought labwhere we meet to exchange ideas
and experiencesand build upon what others have done
and learn from each other.So even though I don't like the name,
really, it's kind of catchy.And once you start using it,
you don't thinkabout the words in it any longer, so…
Yeah, I think we can concludethat it's a good name and it's catchy.
(07:36):
But that what you're doingis more than the name alludes to.
It’s much more than the name.Oh, yes. Yes.
And the work you do within Smart City Lab,you said it's more than just
for the cities.It's actually for everybody
in every part of every municipality.So you also welcome
(07:59):
municipalities that have a lotof widespread citizens in rural areas.
Yes. And we have a setupwhere we talk
about ambassadors and observers.So the ambassadors are the more…
You could call it mature municipalitiesthat have
come a good way on that journey,and they kind of have an obligation
(08:21):
to help others as well. And the observers,they're more listening,
trying to learn and so on.But they can also, of course,
add their experiencesand build upon that.
And what we have learned
is that if we have this,you could call it a safe place
(08:43):
where you can meet and discuss,then the municipalities,
they want to collaborate,they are not competing.
So they are helping each other,which is very good.
And it'ssomething that we have worked hard for
to actually achieve,but I think it works now.
And we have our monthly meetings
(09:03):
and we see oftenafter monthly meeting,
2 or 3 municipalities,they team up,
because they have met someonewith a problem
that has been solved, maybe as someonesitting and thinking about the same thing
so they can just have a discussionabout this together.
How did you do? What worked,what did not work?
(09:24):
I mean,there are so many different municipalities
and they are big ones and small ones.And some of them actually
can't afford to have a lot of peopleemployed in IT or doing specific things.
So there might be just one persondoing something,
and it might be very difficultto maybe start your own IoT journey.
(09:45):
Where do you start tobuild a smart city?
And then you might want to speakto other people and get inspiration,
because you might want to holdsomebody's hand because this is difficult.
And there's so many security issuesand so many things to think about.
Yeah. No, it's so complexthat no one can do it themselves,
(10:06):
not even the big municipalities.And it would be stupid
to do everything yourself.So it's something you need to collaborate
with others on and learn from others.-You often talk
about soft digital infrastructure.Can you tell me more about that?
Yeah. So, when you talkabout infrastructure,
(10:29):
it could beon many different levels.
But when we talkabout digital infrastructure,
people often think aboutthe fibre network, sensor network,
mobile network spectrumquestions and so on.
And these are the harddigital infrastructure.
And in these, I'm it's fair to saythat Sweden
(10:51):
is one of the leading countries.So we have very good fibre penetration,
very good mobile penetration.We're a little bit behind in 5G,
which I think is okay, actually,but we need to step up a little bit.
Okay. So that's the harddigital infrastructure.
Then we have what we wantto achieve with everything.
It's all these services,all the data-driven services
(11:13):
that will, again, make life easierfor everyone in the municipality
and all these servicesthat are data-driven and so on.
But between the servicesand the hard infrastructure,
we havewhat we call soft digital infrastructure.
And it's something that ispretty similar in all municipalities.
And it's technical stufflike standards, technical frameworks.
(11:38):
it's also organisational stufflike processes,
tools, and so on.It's legal stuff
and so on and so forth.And the thing is, since they're so
similar in the municipalities,then why not develop
this soft digital infrastructure together?And it's a little bit
(11:59):
below the radar in in Swedenand in many other countries
that this is important,because
often people don't really understand,I think. Not before you start working
with these things, then you understand.“Oh, but we have another kind
of infrastructurehere that we need to take care of.”
And this is what we arehandling in Smart City Lab,
(12:20):
trying to build upthis soft digital infrastructure
together with the municipalities.And again, so they don't have to reinvent
everything themselves again and again.-But it's so complex,
because some municipalities,they have decided to go for the open data.
road, so to say.And others have chosen to have it
(12:43):
in other systems,and some have built platforms
that are built in one systemand some of them another system.
So all of these technicaland the hard infrastructure
and some of the soft infrastructure,it all looks so different.
Is it possible to find like a common wayforward for all the municipalities?
(13:03):
Yeah, I think it is.And it must be done as well.
And I thinkwe want to have openness, of course.
And opennesscan mean many different things.
Some people talk a lot about open data,open data is really good.
And it's not only somethingthat would be good
(13:24):
for municipalities to do,they need to do it.
They need to share their data.But not all data
can be shared with everyonebecause you have sensitive data,
like if it's about peopleor infrastructures
or economical values, for example,
hidden in the data.Then you may not want to open it
to anyone, but it should be possible.
(13:47):
If you get allowed to get accessto data, then it should be possible
to get access to data.So you need some kind of access control,
on that one.And that's about the data.
Then your questionabout the systems, we are working with…
You could call itan interoperability framework,
(14:09):
which ispretty much the same as in EU,
what they are trying to promote now.And this is something
that will become law with timewithin the next few years.
EU has just made a proposalon an interoperable Europe Act
that will actually enforcethat public sector
(14:31):
work within interoperabilitymuch more than they do today.
So they are forced to havea certain structure
in the systems.And it's not something
that will change everythingfrom day one, at least.
Butoften it's more like a mindset.
(14:52):
You need to think differentlywhen you have your systems.
You need to think different when youprocure systems and so on.
You need to be able to, again,avoid logging,
logging of data or vendor logging,you need to be able to share your data
so that someone else can create valueon that one.
(15:13):
So it's both thosetechnical components of course,
but it's more like a mindset.It's a cultural travel,
and organisational travel.-And of course,
this mindset and this journeyof implementing
what is going to becomelaw in a couple of years
needs to start happeningnow so that we're prepared
(15:33):
so we don't force like a wall,and that it feels
completely inaccessiblebecause we haven't prepared for it.
-And this is also something you discuss.-Yeah. This is something we discussed.
And I think many cities,they understand this
and they want to they want this to happen.But there are still so many municipalities
(15:55):
that haven't really started yet.And for them,
it will become extremely difficultwhen it comes out as a law,
as a directive from EU.Now you have to do this and maybe
you'll get like16 months to implement this,
if they haven't prepared anything.So you need to start preparing for this
now to just startthinking about and start talking about it.
(16:18):
Yeah. Like when GDPR came,we were all a bit unprepared
and it just landed in our laps.And we just quickly
had to deal with it from legal,from communication point of view,
-from like IT point of view.-Yes. Yeah.
So it would be good, of course,if we could avoid this
because this issuch a big system change as well.
-It's not just tiny things, it’s a big thing.-Exactly.
(16:44):
I've understoodthat there are almost as many ways
of dealing with IoTand digitalisation in practicality
as there are municipalities.It seems like all municipalities
are doing their own thingand being on their own journey.
Is this the case, you think?
It’s partly a philosophical question.In some way you could say yes.
(17:07):
And in other ways you could say no.I think
the more mature municipalities,they understand, again,
that they want to work with others.But there are different journeys, I think,
and we're trying to identify thesewithin Smart City Lab.
So there are different journeysdepending on, for example, size,
(17:27):
how mature you are, whether you havea municipality network or not,
and so on. And I think maybewe can boil down
these different journeysto 3 or 5 different journeys.
We're trying to do thatso that it doesn't look different,
(17:48):
because it shouldn't look differentin all municipalities.
But at the same time,once you start to implement
this in your own municipality,there are things
that you have to do yourselfwhen we can help
and other municipalities can help,and there will be
guidelines, and so on.But there are still a lot of things
(18:08):
that you need to do yourself.You need to learn to walk.
That's something that you just needto learn the hard way, you could say.
Could you give some examplesof these five streams?
Could you give 1 or 2 examples justso we understand what you mean
when you say there are five main streams,or categorisations, maybe we should say?
(18:30):
Well, I don't know if it's five
or it's three or more.We don't know yet.
but I think one example isif you're a very small municipality
and you don't have the competenceor the money
to work with this, what do you do then?Then you may need to team up
(18:51):
with others,or you do need to team up with others,
because otherwise you'll neverachieve this.
And there are different ways of doing it.And we can see that
there are many of theseassociations between municipalities
where three, five, six municipalities,they work together on IT.
(19:15):
another solution is, andit's a cool solution
that Ånge outside of Sundsvall,
all the IT will be run by Sundsvall.So from an IT point of view
and digitalisation point of view,they are included in Sundsvall municipality.
That's also a wayof doing it.
(19:37):
The way I understand itis that Ånge basically
scraps their own IT systemand just basically will
log into everything that Sundsvall is doing.So they basically will be almost
like a franchise, or …Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.
-It's very exciting.-That's very interesting.
And I thinkwe'll see more of that as well.
Then we see that there's a difference.
(20:00):
If you have a municipality network,for example, then…
What do you meanwith a municipality network?
Okay. So it'sa municipal company
owning the fibre network.And often it's…
they own the energy infrastructure.It could be the energy company,
for example.There are different constructions
(20:21):
of that, but often they havevery high technical knowledge.
So the IoT parts will often start there.And they have the competence
to run IoT,and they will do that
for their own business to,for example,
monitortheir electricity network
(20:43):
or water network or, or whatever.But then not all municipalities,
they have a municipality network.And so the starting point
needs to come from another way there.
And it's a different way.So different
journeys or different startsof the journey.
(21:04):
But then I thinkno matter how this journey…
what it looks like,then there are certain parts or components
that you should be able to master.And these components
we're trying also to identifyand to map.
So maybe it'salmost the same journey,
but youwill master the different components
(21:27):
at different timesdepending on how mature you are
and depending onhow big you are and so on.
But I’ve also understoodthat there are some different networks
within Smart City Labs.So can you tell me
about these networks?-Yeah. Okay.
So we have tried to identify,what are the
(21:47):
biggest hurdles right now?And we have done a lot of interviews
and we have experiencefrom talking to municipalities
and from previous projectsand everything.
And we have seen thatone issue is with interoperability.
So we don't have interoperability today,and we don't know
(22:09):
how to require interoperability.So this is something that we work with in
one of the networks.And it's not only something
that should be donewithin the municipality,
it's also something that should be doneor addressed at a national level.
And this connects very muchto what's happening in EU.
So it's on many different levelsthat we're working with this.
(22:32):
And interoperability,it's about standards
and about design principles.And it's something that we should just
solve, becauseonce this is in place,
then we can start this processof creating value of all our data.
And then we have solutionsthat can be portable
between municipalities and so on.So this is something
(22:53):
that we need to address.So that's one network.
Then we have a procurement network,because one of the hurdles is…
It's very hard toget an IoT platform.
How to procure somethingthat is still pretty immature?
And how to make it future proof?It's very tough, really.
(23:15):
Because the whole systemis so complex.
And in that onewe have identified different ways
of getting hold of,if you could say that,
an IoT platform or IoT capabilities.
Maybe it's not just one platform,it could be several platforms.
(23:36):
But this IoT capability. And it could belike you make a procurement
or you make your energy companyor municipality network,
they can make a direct procurement.You can do like Ånge, just
getting absorbed by a bigger municipality.You can use open source.
(23:56):
Then you don't have to makea procurement for the IoT capabilities,
but for something else instead.
So there are different ways,and I think eventually
the goal there would be thatit should be easy
to get hold of an IoT platform.And it could be through some kind
of frame agreementfrom Adda or the procurement agency.
(24:20):
Yeah, sowe're working with them as well.
So that was number two network.Then we have a network about
the suppliers,because the suppliers,
they're not allowedin our monthly meetings,
because we don't want them to…Or we want… again,
we want it to be a safe placefor the municipalities.
(24:41):
And it's not a safe placeif there are suppliers there,
because oftenthey will try to sell their solutions.
Even though it's from,from a good will.
So they're not allowed there.But we need to have this interaction
between the suppliersand the municipalities,
because they ultimatelyhave the same goal, of course,
(25:01):
but some are using equipment,and some are selling equipment.
So we have different mechanisms,for that as well.
So that's the supplier network.And then we have the IoT travel.
It's more like a forum maybethan a network,
but it's what you talkabout previously
(25:22):
with the different journeys.So what are the different journeys?
What needs what needs to be in place?And this is where we
kind of holdthe hands of the municipalities,
give them guidelines and all that.So these are the four networks
that we are working with.-And what are the challenges now
(25:43):
for Smart City Lab?
There are challenges on many levels.And I think one challenge is
to reach out, really, to get throughto the right people in the municipality
and on a national level. In some countries,this is controlled
much more from a national level.Someone will say
(26:05):
“now we do this and this and this”,but this is not how Sweden is built.
No one will forcethe municipalities to do something.
-For good and bad.-For good and bad, yeah.
But I thinkif it's infrastructure questions,
(26:27):
then it's more bad than good, because
the municipalities, again,they have the same issues
and the same challenges.So why not, at least
on a very basic infrastructure level say.“okay, this is what you have to do”?
But since this is not happening,at least not before,
(26:47):
EU will do this for usbecause we can't do it ourselves.
We need to work like bottom up.
And this is like the model in Smart City Lab,that we work together
with the municipalities andmaybe create some de facto standard
in different areas.
(27:08):
And then we can build on that one.But at some stage,
it needs to come top-down as well.
And it's almost like a fractal,because you see that
within a municipal department,you need to do this bottom-up
and top-down at the same time.You see it in the whole municipality.
You see it on a national scale.So yeah, bottom-up,
(27:30):
top-down all the time.And they need to interact.
And Smart City Lab is really a wayof putting pressure bottom-up
so that you can get the top-downat the later stage.
-Yeah, you could say so. Yeah.-What has been
the most surprising or unexpected thingwith Smart City Lab so far,
(27:54):
and how did you deal with that?-I don't know if it's
surprising in that sense,but something
that we have learned,and that even came
before we started Smart City Lab,is that in the beginning of this,
3, 4, 5 years ago, we thought, oh,
(28:15):
if we solve the technical problems,
then we solve everything.But that was naive, of course.
And it's easy to laughat that
becausethe non-technical difficulties,
they are much, much biggerthan the technical difficulties.
But then again, you need to havethe technical stuff in place
(28:36):
because otherwise you can't do anything.So it's something
that we still need to address,but it's just a small part of
the problem.-And if you could make a magic wish
on behalf of Smart City Lab,what would that be?
I think that would be thatour politicians,
both in the municipality and national,wake up and understand
(28:58):
that we need to work much more datadriven to be able
to handle our big challengesand to act accordingly, not just
say that digitalisationis important, but to act accordingly.
Yeah, and digitalisation is also a wayof dealing with climate issues
(29:20):
and dealing with a lot of connectivityand solving
what's going to… I mean,the needs for the future in many ways.
Yeah.So if we want to
handle the climate challenges,then we need to work more data-driven.
(29:41):
We need to understand. We need to measure,what is the situation today?
We need to understand, if we do something,some action, we need to measure,
does it work?We need to be able to simulate.
There's so muchdata needed to be able to do this.
And people don't reallyrealise that today,
it's still it's still immature.And I think it's because
(30:06):
if we go to the municipalities,the sustainability and
environment and climate strategist,They are very good at what they are doing,
but they kind of missthe digital parts of this.
And it's actually a problemthat we have identified,
that there's this lack of communicationwithin municipalities,
(30:28):
between those working with climateand the digital strategies.
They need to meet and to talk together,because they can help each other.
And it's like the same on national level.So it's also this a fractal
repeating itself at different levels.-You have
another two yearsto go within this project.
Of course, two years won't be enoughto solve all of these challenges.
(30:53):
Do you have any thoughts on how wecan survive
after the project has finished?-Yeah. And this is
something that we built into the project,because we need to think
about the continuation all the time.And it's not only a continuation
of the project.So if we get a continuation
(31:16):
of the project,then it will look different
from what it looks today.Because a lot of things
will happen in in two years. So it will beit will be something different.
And we don't know what it's going to be.But we have
identified a lot of components
that someone will need at a national levelto govern
(31:41):
and to maintain.And that could, for example,
be if we're talking…if we're going to the technical issues,
like, what kindof APIs should you use?
The rules for howto access data.
What kind of data modelsshould you use, and so on.
And if someone should point at this,someone should say,
(32:04):
“this is what we want to use”or “this is what we want to use”.
But there should also bea possibility to get in
and change them as well.That should be like other
we use, what's on European, global level,like standards, for example.
But something has to be adaptedto Swedish conditions
and someone will need to maintain this.There should be like a GitHub,
(32:27):
a place where you can add your comments,for example,
that someone shouldhave for all this.
Also, all these tools that we have,that we're using…
At RISE,maybe we can
make a toolor someone else can make a tool
and we can say “this fitsinto this interoperability framework
(32:51):
and the way of working”.But we cannot be the national…
actively of responsible for this one.It should be someone else.
And I think we have a list of10 or 15 different things
that should be owned and governed bya national actor,
which is not done today.And for some of them, we can say “we think
(33:15):
this should be SKR”,for example, the association
of local authorities.For some it should be
Digg, the digitalisation agency,but they're not doing it today.
And there are other examples.Yeah.
A really big,important part of the project
is to identify these gapsand how they could be overcome.
(33:39):
And then trying to seeif we can start the conversation
and see if we can force thingsto go forward,
and everybody would benefit from that.So it's very important.
Yeah, and someoneshould take responsibility
for all these different components.So that's also an important part
of the project, trying to find,who will be responsible for this?
Do you know if there's any networksresembling Smart City Lab?
(34:04):
Is there any networksresembling Smart City Lab
in other countries? Have you heard of any?-We are mostly looking at Europe,
because it’sthe same structure
and it's under the same Europeanlaws and so on.
So we know that inother countries like Denmark…
(34:28):
But it's not exactly Smart City Lab,but it's
the same activities that are done,
but done in slightly different waysand with other types of stakeholders.
I know in Finland there'ssomething like it. In the Netherlands,
you have municipality collaborationand where also research
(34:54):
institutes are involved in,in Flanders, in northern Belgium.
So there aredifferent networks,
kind of like Smart City Lab.Not exactly the same, but
doing much of the same stuff.-The need for discussing
these common issues on smart cities,it seems to be international
(35:18):
and it's the same need everywhere.-Exactly. Yeah.
So I think we're comingto the end of this podcast.
Do you think there's something I forgotto ask or something you would like to add?
-Not right now.-I think that if you're a municipality
and if you're listeningand if you're interested,
you can contact the Smart City Lab team
(35:40):
and get more information.Or if you're interested
in joining the conversations,you're welcome to do that.
Yes.And you can Google Smart City Lab
and then you'll find some information,either at RISE or IoT Sweden.
And you will findsome contact details there.
So please.Everyone is welcome.
So thank you very much, Claus.It has been a pleasure having you here.
(36:01):
Thank you.You have been listening to the IoT public sector podcast
and, Claus Popp Larsen at RISErepresenting Smart City Lab
was our guest today.Please follow us on Podbean or Spotify
or anywhere else where podcasts live.Please contact us
and follow us at LinkedIn.Search for IoT Sweden International.
(36:23):
This podcast and more about IoT Swedencan be found on our website.
IoT Sweden isa strategic innovation program
and we're hosted by Uppsala University.My name is Kristin Blom
and I'm a communication managerat IoT Sweden.
The music was written and producedby Johannes Bergenheim
exclusively for IoT Sweden.
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