January 31, 2023 • 29 mins
Josh Miller, OEM Product Manager of Dragonfly Energy, sits down to discuss how electricity and the evolution of the deep cycle battery market has shifted the RV industry. What has evolved since carrying mass amounts of energy on a coach was introduced? And where are we headed now? Josh dives into the details.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi la da da da da da da.
Hi,
I'm Dennis Farris and welcome to the limitless Energy podcast.
(00:24):
It is my pleasure to have today's guest,
josh Miller.
Well,
thanks Dennis,
good to be here.
Another team member at Dragonfly Energy,
you're pretty new and I have to say we are so happy to have you on the team because we've been working together for a long time,
haven't we?
Have we have,
it feels as if it's been been here now,
(00:45):
just about a year,
but I feel like we've worked together in a number of different buildings now.
It's really been,
I mean the first time I heard about you was I want to say six or seven years ago,
probably.
Yeah,
because you were the RV guy actually.
Yeah,
it's a strange moniker to like have around your neck is the RV guy.
(01:05):
Um,
but it's uh,
it was nice to be able to maybe like open those doors for what seemed like a perfect fit for what you guys were doing,
guess what we're doing in the lithium space because six or seven years ago the idea of replacing a generator with batteries was like,
(01:26):
that's impossible.
There's no,
there's no way anybody would do that.
Why would you do that?
And now today it's like top of everybody's mind,
right?
And the work that you were doing,
starting back then,
it took a long time to sort of culminate into actual O E M deals and at the same time we're kind of working in the Aftermarket,
we're just working with retail consumers.
(01:48):
They would also help out by going back and telling,
you know,
the manufacturers,
this is what we've experienced.
This is what we like,
right?
Yeah.
Hey,
and this is a goal,
right?
I mean six or seven years ago we were traveling around having some conversations about what would you be able to do if you took away a generator or like made it smaller or more efficient?
(02:09):
How could you supplement with batteries?
And there was a conversation about air conditioning and the only solution was,
well we can't,
we don't think we can do air conditioning with the current batteries that we have.
We can do swamp coolers and I had no idea what a swamp cooler was.
I mean that does,
that sounds just damp and cold,
right?
Um,
(02:29):
but that really works when it's dry,
Right?
Yeah,
you have to have really dry air,
but here's the swamp cooler thing.
I just thought this was some weird Cajun backcountry stuff,
but they said,
yeah,
that's the only thing that draws low enough power that we'd be able to have,
like there's just not that kind of infrastructure or power available.
So you're stuck with swamp cooler and there was nobody in their right mind that wanted to do that.
Um,
(02:50):
but I think that that sort of like was a key of,
okay,
if that's the goal and that's the goal from like a year or two or five,
how do we get there?
Um,
and then fast forward five years and you know,
we're sort of leading that way and you want to run your air conditioner,
cool,
what else do you want to do?
And for,
how long do you want to do it?
Is that when you bought in,
(03:11):
when you were like,
look,
if you actually want to have an experience with a cool air and not,
you know,
be suffering,
you really need a different sort of energy system including batteries.
Oh,
absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean I came from electrical distribution and in that world everything was pretty,
you know,
it was this status quo things didn't change very often.
(03:31):
It was really slow to evolve.
You were dealing with these gigantic corporations that had their own sort of agendas or product development.
So you just sort of thought like lead acid was lead acid,
like that was the only way to do it.
But you know,
every year you heard about the different things that dragonfly was doing or Battle Born was doing and how it just like it was eating away at this like long held belief that you weren't able to sort of carry that kind of energy or deliver that kind of energy.
(04:01):
And then it just After probably that 2015 timeframe fast forward to 2017 talking with Keystone Montana and that whole super solar program that they put together where it was,
hey now we think that we can run the whole freaking coach,
right?
Both air conditioners,
the refrigerator,
(04:21):
the tv,
all the things you would never think that would make camping super necessary,
right?
But like for folks that want to have a big fifth wheel,
they want to live comfortably completely off grid.
Here's how we do it right here is the price tag and holy smokes.
Did people like that,
seeing it in action?
(04:41):
Those early meetings was kind of interesting.
So my earlier life,
like we integrated into that whole system,
um,
helped develop air conditioners that would run more efficiently in the internal soft starts and all that kind of stuff.
So sitting in those meetings was amazing to think holy crap.
Just a few years ago,
this was a pipe dream,
right?
That was gonna be cost prohibitive.
(05:02):
It wouldn't work very well.
You wouldn't be able to do all these things,
you're making all these concessions And now we're having meetings where it's like the future is now and then when it was showcased at that open house in 2018,
2019,
2019,
that's why I was gonna say you were having these conversations in 2017.
The rollout was in 2019,
(05:23):
was it okay?
Yeah,
it was the end of 2017 that those conversations were starting to happen As the,
we're looking to maybe do something that really sort of like breaks the mold.
They saw the demand we're seeing in 2022 and 20,
the folks at Keystone were kind of like recognizing it as this thing that's coming.
(05:45):
Um,
and then it felt like it took them a year of development and working through different stuff,
but to see it roll out in that open house and the folks that will walk in and like,
yeah,
these things were not plugged in and just no way alright,
like where do we sign up?
(06:05):
This is the coolest thing.
So that's been,
that was one of the really neat um,
parts to see those first conversations.
Um,
you know,
years and years before and this idea and it's like,
hey,
I'm this old electrical distributor guy and you're like,
well,
this sounds cute,
right?
(06:25):
There's no way that some of this stuff works.
And then all of a sudden you start to realize,
okay,
there's a lot of things I didn't realize that were even possible with lithium,
right?
I remember that roll out well too because it was the G C three rollout we designed,
we did the G C three for Montana for that for that program.
(06:48):
That was the game changer.
Yeah,
that was,
that was an exciting time.
And uh,
and were you there?
Did you go to the concert?
I went to the concert,
yep,
the concert was fun.
I've seen,
I've seen some photos,
everybody had a good time.
I don't remember quite the very end of it.
But yeah,
the whole time,
(07:08):
there was,
it was,
it was really an interesting experience.
So obviously you weren't working directly with us I guess at the time,
I'm not sure how,
no,
so wade and I obviously have worked together in some capacity for Good Lord now,
probably 20 years and um at the time I was working with a company called ERic Cell which made a lot of appliances for RVs and the question was hey,
(07:37):
we are going to go down this path and in order to,
to deliver the most efficient large fifth wheel and to give them like an air conditioner or a system that is going to work well with the battery and inverter system that was being developed.
We need to have as much efficient appliances as possible,
(08:00):
so that's where it was,
hey josh,
you're part of this erIC sell world,
what are you guys doing or what can you bring to it?
And so that fast forwarded um,
whole soft start integrated into an air conditioner,
like that didn't exist before.
It was only a bolt on part and the engineers at ERIC cell had been working on it,
(08:20):
but there was no real demand,
it was just like,
hey,
you know,
we're hearing about this kind of fad about uh,
you know,
bolt on,
soft starts,
what if we just integrated it into the air conditioner and made it really,
really easy.
Um,
and so that kickstarted and fast forward and product development thing that we were already sort of talking about when I was at ERIC cell And so like that coupled with everything else you ended up in this sort of like um fellowship of the super solar flex unit right?
(08:47):
So I ended up sitting in a lot of those same meetings with wade and and you guys in that part.
That's right that that air conditioner was tailor made for lithium because of that soft start which is something that we had to deal with um for a while up until that point we're like okay good.
Other people are thinking about this.
Other people are making the whole system work well.
(09:08):
Oh yeah it was one of the neat parts about it.
So like you know you've got all these different pages in the book as we're developing out this stuff and it was a hoot because the first few air conditioners that had the software and the chip set and the compressor to do all this soft start stuff.
Um The very first one that they did was programmed incorrectly.
(09:31):
So that very first proto that we did those A.
C.
S.
Would kick on and it kicked the system offline.
And so we flew engineers out from Kansas like the next morning and had them do all sorts of trouble shooting.
They realized that they had put the wrong voltage soft start kit chip set.
That was for a totally different application had gotten onto these A.
(09:53):
C.
So they did some uh some emergency surgery and the rest is history Nice.
It was cool.
It was awesome.
Yeah.
And uh I think that's the first time we hung out by the way,
that was keith urban keith urban concert that night.
And you and it's 2019 2019.
Holy smokes.
Yeah,
(10:14):
so I had messed up everything all my days and years are all messed up.
So you you are an indiana boy you're from,
is it left yet?
I'm a Hoosier,
I'm from muncie um commonly referred to maybe asthma Kentucky.
So it's a it's an old blue collar town.
Did not go to Ball State.
That's the home of Ball State's in muncie.
(10:34):
David Letterman graduated from there,
Jim Davis of Garfield,
you know,
he's from muncie and me.
So you know I'm third on that list.
Easy.
Yeah,
you're the third most prominent figure from muncie.
Yeah,
it's crazy.
But uh so yeah,
Munsey um after college and moved to South Bend,
I had a lot of my mom's family was from up there and I knew nothing about Rvs.
(10:58):
I called everything a Winnebago right?
Like everybody calls facial tissues.
Kleenex,
everything was a Winnebago.
Um and uh started into this electoral distribution side of things and once you're kind of in this RV space once they allow you in because it's kind of a really tight knit group of people up in Elkhart um you just can never leave.
(11:21):
So you got into the RV space um through through the electrical uh pathway.
And so it actually does make sense the way you ended up sort of being on the forefront of bringing new energy storage into the whole thing.
Um,
what kind in these early conversations,
(11:42):
what kind of hurdles did you see to get to get the ball rolling?
I know the aftermarket helped,
There's a lot of momentum,
but when you're talking directly with those O E M's,
the hardest part for any O E M,
when you're doing anything that's new is you have to find an O E M.
(12:02):
That is willing to be the first guy willing to sort of be the guinea pig because they're going to have to understand that that product development can be painful.
It is usually lots of delays and it's going to likely be expensive.
But on the flip side you also have to find the OM that realizes,
(12:23):
hey,
I can now set market price,
I can be the leader of that,
I can capture that sort of option.
That added option cost up front.
The hurdle then becomes,
once they get past the cost part,
the reliability,
the technical,
know how the follow up because they're never experts.
(12:45):
An RV guy will tell you,
I don't sell a battery or I don't sell an air conditioner,
I sell an RV,
I need to be the expert of the overall RV,
but man,
I need to have lots of backup on how this thing uh is functioning or that if I pick up the phone and call because a lot of these guys don't know how to like run a thermostat,
(13:06):
right?
I mean honest to God,
like thermostats can be confusing because an RV thermostat is not like your home's thermostat.
So imagine lithium and the power systems that those are like that is nowhere found in most of,
you know,
an american's home,
right?
Like it's just not.
And so there's a lot of like trepidation of do we go down this path and if we're going to go down this path and we get over that sort of like cost anxiety.
(13:30):
Now we have to trust the people that we are partnering with because we don't want to or we can't really have the time to devote like to understand it completely.
So there's a whole bunch of different like different sides of that dice that these guys worry about and you kind of have to like check the box,
get them comfortable with them.
One thing move to the next move to the next move to the next.
(13:53):
The nice part is as we're doing that as a company,
right?
So we evangelize battle born um and dragonfly and folks are getting comfortable more comfortable with lithium.
Um a lot of those guys are finding it easier to like continue to evangelize with us,
(14:13):
right?
It's um it's it's really neat to see how quickly the objections and the roadblocks that an O.
E.
M.
Might throw up.
Um And now it's more of a total 1 80 especially in the last six months.
The dealer side of things is where the O.
E.
M.
S.
Were probably four or five years ago maybe maybe six years ago where it's just it's really new and I'm afraid and all I've ever heard of and they're placing the orders with these with an RV that's got these systems on from us right?
(14:47):
So they're really afraid or they're just afraid of what they don't know right?
And a lot of them were like I don't want to mess with it.
It's just uh and now they're seeing that that future is coming just like what keystone did back in 17 and 18 and there's they're raising their hand and saying okay hey we need help.
Right?
We we see it coming.
We were deniers now now it's here.
(15:08):
So just like the O.
M.
Saying will you please help us understand this?
And we stand behind it.
The dealer base is starting to say well you train our people will you help us understand it?
Will you you know teach us to fish.
Right?
The nice thing about working with O.
E.
M's for us is because they were so careful and they did allow us to help them develop their systems once it's in place once it's being shipped we don't have any issues ever with these systems.
(15:36):
You know it's like of course in the aftermarket people do,
who knows what with the matter?
So we,
we really did try hard to make it as foolproof as we could,
but we with an O E.
M.
The systems are just so well designed.
They're the same every time and step and repeat.
Yeah,
exactly.
And it's,
it's great for us.
We just don't have to worry about it.
You know,
the biggest worry is did the guys tighten the bolts right appropriately at the factory level?
(16:00):
Right?
Because it's step and repeat step and repeat for you.
Did you see this type of RV onslaught when you form the company?
Oh God,
no,
not when I formed the company,
no.
Uh,
you know,
I didn't,
I didn't hear about RVs really until like,
you know,
2015 something,
(16:21):
you know,
really,
when you were kind of started thinking about lithium,
um,
I I was more interested in off off grid and on grid residential storage.
That's why I did,
you know dragonfly,
that's why I was working with lithium batteries.
And actually my first try was to make battery powered guitar amplifiers.
(16:42):
That's a great way to lose money.
But it's the perfect niche right?
There was a need that you saw,
I don't know if it's perfect,
but it was an itch.
And you know,
it certainly,
I did not know the RV market at all.
I didn't realize how big it was,
but at the same time that Dragonfly was getting into it?
The market was just growing so rapidly before Covid,
(17:06):
all that stuff that the RV market was was growing so fast.
Actually.
Can you talk a little bit about the last decade?
And what are being has done?
Oh my gosh,
since the recession of 2007 and 2008 because that really that hit a lot of the RV companies pretty hard.
Right?
So that's sort of the low water mark.
Since then the market has gone from 252 175,000 coaches a year To the high water mark of over 600,000 just uh 12:15 months ago.
(17:37):
Right?
And it's it's a pretty steady pace up,
right?
And the more people that come into the camping space,
it's sort of,
each generation wants to have maybe the same stuff that they had at home,
right?
So when I first started in the nineties you might have had a single slide out and a tv right big box like R.
(18:00):
C.
A.
T.
V.
And now there's a we want to have an RV that can do a whole bunch of things.
We don't need it to be 60 ft long.
We want to cram a lot of that into a small space but we want to make sure that this stuff works right,
We want to make sure that I can operate my business remotely right or wherever I want to go and what I'm doing will work,
(18:29):
right?
So I wanna be,
I wanna be comfortable,
I wanna be hot when I need warm,
I need to be,
be cool when I'm hot,
all that kind of stuff and the more and more people don't want to have a generator clanging along,
right.
More folks realize if I invest some cash up front,
it saves me a lot of money or the way that I want to camp or be off grid later.
(18:53):
Um,
and so as improvements have been made to the way that these Rvs are built or engineered or thought about,
you know,
the sales continue to go up and up and up.
There's,
there's always going to be a need for americans to sort of like get out of their home,
right,
get out there and stay out there and with the growth of um jobs where you don't need to be in an office,
(19:18):
I don't see an end in that site.
And what I love about it is our being,
is not what I thought it was when I was a kid,
which is this giant,
you know,
gas guzzler or whatever,
you know what,
it's cousin Eddie from national lampoon's christmas vacation,
right?
Like a lot of people had that sort of like Rvs or this,
(19:41):
you know,
maybe not the most glamorous thing in the world,
but,
but what it turned out to be,
at least for me it's,
it's more of an outdoorsy camping sort of thing,
it's to get you somewhere nice,
you know,
and obviously if you're not plugged into a pedestal,
you can be anywhere.
And that's something that are being,
has become and lithium has facilitated that,
right?
Oh,
100%.
(20:01):
I mean to,
they're building half a million rvs a year.
They are not making a half a million new posts where you can plug into period end of story.
So either you're waiting to sign up to go to your local K.
O.
A.
Or or name the campground and that's why something like harvest host is exploded.
(20:21):
You know,
you can go rent space on a beautiful rolling,
you know,
farm in Virginia,
but you're not going to have power,
right?
You're gonna have to boondocks.
Okay,
well how do you,
how do you do that comfortably?
And that's where the lithium solution has started to explode.
Where guys are like,
okay,
(20:41):
so I can invest and have my camping experience or my getaway experience anywhere.
Um east of the Mississippi is one set of people in the way they've sort of been maybe accustomed to camping,
which is plugging in,
you know,
west of the Mississippi where there's all this blm land,
(21:02):
Holy smokes,
I mean that's where the tip of the spear has been out west where they want to just don't even come close to the grid tie and that's starting to make its way to the east coast,
primarily because more and more people are don't want to plan their weekend a year in advance.
(21:22):
They just want to hop in the van happen,
the class A or the Tobel and find a nice comfortable spot in the middle of nowhere where they can like chill out with their family.
So is this sort of comforting to the O E M.
S that they are now no longer limited to the growth of infrastructure that now people can,
you know,
anyone can have an RV and go any time they want.
(21:43):
Absolutely.
It's,
it's another sellable feature for the first time.
Our beer that might be um,
a younger family folks that are understand that they're willing to spend a certain amount of money above and beyond in order to get something that they really,
really want right?
Like it's,
it's a different mindset with the way that they're making their purchases and Yeah,
(22:10):
I mean 100% like just being able to get off that grid and do whatever they want whenever they want is is great for a young family.
Um,
and we're starting to see older RV folks that they're on their 7th,
8th or ninth RV and they've had 20 or 30 years of a horrible lead acid experience,
(22:32):
right?
Like they,
but they just chalk it up is like,
well that's just what you have to deal with,
right in indiana potholes every spring form because of all the freeze and thaw.
And so you're just kind of,
I guess the roads suck,
right?
There's that,
that's the mentality for these RVs that are like multi generation,
our beers just to lead acid batteries are terrible and It's gonna give up the fight and I'll just spend more money and you know,
(22:55):
it's one of the top forum conversations,
it's amazing.
There's always battery,
battery,
battery,
battery,
what do we do?
Hey,
these things are terrible.
And in the,
in the past 18 months,
24 months there's this enormous chorus of go battle born go lithium stop doing the same silly thing.
You don't have to be like wedged into this lead acid,
(23:17):
just sort of like pit,
you know,
come to the light and,
and,
and see what the lithium space can give to you.
So what does that mean to the,
to the state?
I know there's some RV manufacturers,
you know,
Winnebago and Tiffin and others,
but Indiana is still the hub.
Right?
So you grew up in Indiana,
you did not grow up RV,
(23:38):
but what does it mean in general to the average Hoosier that the average Hoosier,
I can tell you that the governor of Indiana,
it is one of the top things that he speaks about,
whether it's to the international community as far as manufacturing,
um,
let alone how he will showcase it versus the states around us,
(24:01):
you know,
Illinois michigan michigan's a big manufacturer of automobiles.
We are a,
were a big manufacturing hub for RVs and that's when he,
he really touts it as,
it's an impressive thing to see because it's very entrepreneurial.
A lot of these RV companies started out of a garage,
(24:21):
kind of a similar story,
right,
started out of a garage.
They,
they had an idea,
they wanted to do something a little bit different and before you know it,
you know,
they're,
you know,
multimillion dollar businesses that are,
are employing tens of thousands of folks in northern indiana and the fact that 85% or more Rvs are built in Elkhart is just amazing and it supports billions and billions of dollars um,
(24:48):
of ancillary things um,
for the state.
Yeah,
well I love to see the industry leading the way in,
in a way that you,
we really didn't think was possible because you've got,
these are beers that are putting solar,
that are putting all these batteries and other industries have not yet suit,
(25:08):
you know,
there's,
you know,
there's,
you've got the semi trucks and the,
and the work trucks and other industries that haven't RV owners are living off of the sun.
This is something I keep sort of talking about,
which is the fact that RV owners,
a lot of them are demonstrating how you can do that and we want to take that and extend that to folks living on the grid.
(25:30):
Like you can actually live off of the sun and not draw so much from the power plant,
right?
Oh,
absolutely.
It's,
it's weird when you think about um maybe the preconceived notion of R.
V.
Ng 20 or 30 or 40 years ago as perhaps maybe a little backwoods,
a little backwards,
you know,
not cutting edge.
And then you sort of juxtapose that to what they're doing,
(25:53):
right?
I mean they're carrying multiple voltages,
they're doing a bunch of really wild things in a wobbly box down the highway and now they've almost got their own micro grid where if you've got your RV parked next to your house and you've got a large battery bank and solar and all that stuff,
(26:16):
you have the opportunity to turn that RV into your backup generator,
right,
So that the power goes down in your house.
In theory,
you can take that power that's on your coach and at least power one of the legs on your 2 40 your house.
Right.
I mean,
these are those things that the,
the R.
V.
Or their tinkerers there,
there are thinkers about some of these things and they're brave in and how they'll accept technologies that maybe the rest of the um the population haven't gotten into and it's almost out of necessity,
(26:46):
right?
I mean,
if I'm living somewhere and I can't plug in and I can't do this.
Okay,
well I gotta figure out how to do it.
Um and what becomes niche eventually spreads into the more mainstream and that's what we're seeing in RVs and you're starting to see it.
Uh it's really kind of fun is a lot of our beers or some of our outdoorsman or boaters or whatnot,
(27:07):
you know,
they've experienced our batteries in their campers and so when they're looking at making business decisions and maybe a similar field where they're needing to utilize battery technology,
uh we were just talking to a gentleman who uses our batteries on his boat,
but he also as part of a company that handles a lot of the industrial material handling equipment,
(27:30):
so like floor scrubbers and tugs and whatnot.
And he sort of a lightning moment.
He said,
well,
I can probably take my lithium out,
right,
and I can do a proto and I think that this is a value add to this industry.
Sure.
Of course.
Right.
So it's kind of interesting how in the RV space where people learn to live with it,
how it's now making its way into other commercial applications.
(27:51):
Yeah.
So if you really wanna know electrical systems get an RV right,
right.
If you want to do a deep dive in the rat's nest that maybe maybe inside of an RV.
Yeah,
there's a lot going on.
I mean,
you've just multiple voltages,
you know,
you've got yeah,
2 40 in the 50 amp side of things,
multiple different things.
I mean,
look,
there's teams of engineers at RV companies um when you moved into a motorized space where you have an army of engineers that have to make sure that this thing that looks relatively simple and straightforward operates in a simple and straightforward manner.
(28:25):
Um,
and they've all struggled with part of that power solution with the lead acid.
Um,
and we've been able to to answer a ton of those.
Well I know at Dragonfly,
we are proud to be part of that solution and you personally have been a big part of it as well with us.
So we appreciate it.
(28:46):
And uh,
thank you so much there,
there was a lot of great insight there coming from an indiana boy,
appreciate it.
Thanks for coming on the podcast.
Certainly.
Thanks,
appreciate it.
I'd like to thank our guests today,
our very own josh miller.
Be sure to subscribe to the limitless Energy podcast on your favorite podcast platform.
Hi la da da da da da da.
Hi,
I'm Dennis Farris and welcome to the limitless Energy podcast.
(00:24):
It is my pleasure to have today's guest,
josh Miller.
Well,
thanks Dennis,
good to be here.
Another team member at Dragonfly Energy,
you're pretty new and I have to say we are so happy to have you on the team because we've been working together for a long time,
haven't we?
Have we have,
it feels as if it's been been here now,
(00:45):
just about a year,
but I feel like we've worked together in a number of different buildings now.
It's really been,
I mean the first time I heard about you was I want to say six or seven years ago,
probably.
Yeah,
because you were the RV guy actually.
Yeah,
it's a strange moniker to like have around your neck is the RV guy.
(01:05):
Um,
but it's uh,
it was nice to be able to maybe like open those doors for what seemed like a perfect fit for what you guys were doing,
guess what we're doing in the lithium space because six or seven years ago the idea of replacing a generator with batteries was like,
(01:26):
that's impossible.
There's no,
there's no way anybody would do that.
Why would you do that?
And now today it's like top of everybody's mind,
right?
And the work that you were doing,
starting back then,
it took a long time to sort of culminate into actual O E M deals and at the same time we're kind of working in the Aftermarket,
we're just working with retail consumers.
(01:48):
They would also help out by going back and telling,
you know,
the manufacturers,
this is what we've experienced.
This is what we like,
right?
Yeah.
Hey,
and this is a goal,
right?
I mean six or seven years ago we were traveling around having some conversations about what would you be able to do if you took away a generator or like made it smaller or more efficient?
(02:09):
How could you supplement with batteries?
And there was a conversation about air conditioning and the only solution was,
well we can't,
we don't think we can do air conditioning with the current batteries that we have.
We can do swamp coolers and I had no idea what a swamp cooler was.
I mean that does,
that sounds just damp and cold,
right?
Um,
(02:29):
but that really works when it's dry,
Right?
Yeah,
you have to have really dry air,
but here's the swamp cooler thing.
I just thought this was some weird Cajun backcountry stuff,
but they said,
yeah,
that's the only thing that draws low enough power that we'd be able to have,
like there's just not that kind of infrastructure or power available.
So you're stuck with swamp cooler and there was nobody in their right mind that wanted to do that.
Um,
(02:50):
but I think that that sort of like was a key of,
okay,
if that's the goal and that's the goal from like a year or two or five,
how do we get there?
Um,
and then fast forward five years and you know,
we're sort of leading that way and you want to run your air conditioner,
cool,
what else do you want to do?
And for,
how long do you want to do it?
Is that when you bought in,
(03:11):
when you were like,
look,
if you actually want to have an experience with a cool air and not,
you know,
be suffering,
you really need a different sort of energy system including batteries.
Oh,
absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean I came from electrical distribution and in that world everything was pretty,
you know,
it was this status quo things didn't change very often.
(03:31):
It was really slow to evolve.
You were dealing with these gigantic corporations that had their own sort of agendas or product development.
So you just sort of thought like lead acid was lead acid,
like that was the only way to do it.
But you know,
every year you heard about the different things that dragonfly was doing or Battle Born was doing and how it just like it was eating away at this like long held belief that you weren't able to sort of carry that kind of energy or deliver that kind of energy.
(04:01):
And then it just After probably that 2015 timeframe fast forward to 2017 talking with Keystone Montana and that whole super solar program that they put together where it was,
hey now we think that we can run the whole freaking coach,
right?
Both air conditioners,
the refrigerator,
(04:21):
the tv,
all the things you would never think that would make camping super necessary,
right?
But like for folks that want to have a big fifth wheel,
they want to live comfortably completely off grid.
Here's how we do it right here is the price tag and holy smokes.
Did people like that,
seeing it in action?
(04:41):
Those early meetings was kind of interesting.
So my earlier life,
like we integrated into that whole system,
um,
helped develop air conditioners that would run more efficiently in the internal soft starts and all that kind of stuff.
So sitting in those meetings was amazing to think holy crap.
Just a few years ago,
this was a pipe dream,
right?
That was gonna be cost prohibitive.
(05:02):
It wouldn't work very well.
You wouldn't be able to do all these things,
you're making all these concessions And now we're having meetings where it's like the future is now and then when it was showcased at that open house in 2018,
2019,
2019,
that's why I was gonna say you were having these conversations in 2017.
The rollout was in 2019,
(05:23):
was it okay?
Yeah,
it was the end of 2017 that those conversations were starting to happen As the,
we're looking to maybe do something that really sort of like breaks the mold.
They saw the demand we're seeing in 2022 and 20,
the folks at Keystone were kind of like recognizing it as this thing that's coming.
(05:45):
Um,
and then it felt like it took them a year of development and working through different stuff,
but to see it roll out in that open house and the folks that will walk in and like,
yeah,
these things were not plugged in and just no way alright,
like where do we sign up?
(06:05):
This is the coolest thing.
So that's been,
that was one of the really neat um,
parts to see those first conversations.
Um,
you know,
years and years before and this idea and it's like,
hey,
I'm this old electrical distributor guy and you're like,
well,
this sounds cute,
right?
(06:25):
There's no way that some of this stuff works.
And then all of a sudden you start to realize,
okay,
there's a lot of things I didn't realize that were even possible with lithium,
right?
I remember that roll out well too because it was the G C three rollout we designed,
we did the G C three for Montana for that for that program.
(06:48):
That was the game changer.
Yeah,
that was,
that was an exciting time.
And uh,
and were you there?
Did you go to the concert?
I went to the concert,
yep,
the concert was fun.
I've seen,
I've seen some photos,
everybody had a good time.
I don't remember quite the very end of it.
But yeah,
the whole time,
(07:08):
there was,
it was,
it was really an interesting experience.
So obviously you weren't working directly with us I guess at the time,
I'm not sure how,
no,
so wade and I obviously have worked together in some capacity for Good Lord now,
probably 20 years and um at the time I was working with a company called ERic Cell which made a lot of appliances for RVs and the question was hey,
(07:37):
we are going to go down this path and in order to,
to deliver the most efficient large fifth wheel and to give them like an air conditioner or a system that is going to work well with the battery and inverter system that was being developed.
We need to have as much efficient appliances as possible,
(08:00):
so that's where it was,
hey josh,
you're part of this erIC sell world,
what are you guys doing or what can you bring to it?
And so that fast forwarded um,
whole soft start integrated into an air conditioner,
like that didn't exist before.
It was only a bolt on part and the engineers at ERIC cell had been working on it,
(08:20):
but there was no real demand,
it was just like,
hey,
you know,
we're hearing about this kind of fad about uh,
you know,
bolt on,
soft starts,
what if we just integrated it into the air conditioner and made it really,
really easy.
Um,
and so that kickstarted and fast forward and product development thing that we were already sort of talking about when I was at ERIC cell And so like that coupled with everything else you ended up in this sort of like um fellowship of the super solar flex unit right?
(08:47):
So I ended up sitting in a lot of those same meetings with wade and and you guys in that part.
That's right that that air conditioner was tailor made for lithium because of that soft start which is something that we had to deal with um for a while up until that point we're like okay good.
Other people are thinking about this.
Other people are making the whole system work well.
(09:08):
Oh yeah it was one of the neat parts about it.
So like you know you've got all these different pages in the book as we're developing out this stuff and it was a hoot because the first few air conditioners that had the software and the chip set and the compressor to do all this soft start stuff.
Um The very first one that they did was programmed incorrectly.
(09:31):
So that very first proto that we did those A.
C.
S.
Would kick on and it kicked the system offline.
And so we flew engineers out from Kansas like the next morning and had them do all sorts of trouble shooting.
They realized that they had put the wrong voltage soft start kit chip set.
That was for a totally different application had gotten onto these A.
(09:53):
C.
So they did some uh some emergency surgery and the rest is history Nice.
It was cool.
It was awesome.
Yeah.
And uh I think that's the first time we hung out by the way,
that was keith urban keith urban concert that night.
And you and it's 2019 2019.
Holy smokes.
Yeah,
(10:14):
so I had messed up everything all my days and years are all messed up.
So you you are an indiana boy you're from,
is it left yet?
I'm a Hoosier,
I'm from muncie um commonly referred to maybe asthma Kentucky.
So it's a it's an old blue collar town.
Did not go to Ball State.
That's the home of Ball State's in muncie.
(10:34):
David Letterman graduated from there,
Jim Davis of Garfield,
you know,
he's from muncie and me.
So you know I'm third on that list.
Easy.
Yeah,
you're the third most prominent figure from muncie.
Yeah,
it's crazy.
But uh so yeah,
Munsey um after college and moved to South Bend,
I had a lot of my mom's family was from up there and I knew nothing about Rvs.
(10:58):
I called everything a Winnebago right?
Like everybody calls facial tissues.
Kleenex,
everything was a Winnebago.
Um and uh started into this electoral distribution side of things and once you're kind of in this RV space once they allow you in because it's kind of a really tight knit group of people up in Elkhart um you just can never leave.
(11:21):
So you got into the RV space um through through the electrical uh pathway.
And so it actually does make sense the way you ended up sort of being on the forefront of bringing new energy storage into the whole thing.
Um,
what kind in these early conversations,
(11:42):
what kind of hurdles did you see to get to get the ball rolling?
I know the aftermarket helped,
There's a lot of momentum,
but when you're talking directly with those O E M's,
the hardest part for any O E M,
when you're doing anything that's new is you have to find an O E M.
(12:02):
That is willing to be the first guy willing to sort of be the guinea pig because they're going to have to understand that that product development can be painful.
It is usually lots of delays and it's going to likely be expensive.
But on the flip side you also have to find the OM that realizes,
(12:23):
hey,
I can now set market price,
I can be the leader of that,
I can capture that sort of option.
That added option cost up front.
The hurdle then becomes,
once they get past the cost part,
the reliability,
the technical,
know how the follow up because they're never experts.
(12:45):
An RV guy will tell you,
I don't sell a battery or I don't sell an air conditioner,
I sell an RV,
I need to be the expert of the overall RV,
but man,
I need to have lots of backup on how this thing uh is functioning or that if I pick up the phone and call because a lot of these guys don't know how to like run a thermostat,
(13:06):
right?
I mean honest to God,
like thermostats can be confusing because an RV thermostat is not like your home's thermostat.
So imagine lithium and the power systems that those are like that is nowhere found in most of,
you know,
an american's home,
right?
Like it's just not.
And so there's a lot of like trepidation of do we go down this path and if we're going to go down this path and we get over that sort of like cost anxiety.
(13:30):
Now we have to trust the people that we are partnering with because we don't want to or we can't really have the time to devote like to understand it completely.
So there's a whole bunch of different like different sides of that dice that these guys worry about and you kind of have to like check the box,
get them comfortable with them.
One thing move to the next move to the next move to the next.
(13:53):
The nice part is as we're doing that as a company,
right?
So we evangelize battle born um and dragonfly and folks are getting comfortable more comfortable with lithium.
Um a lot of those guys are finding it easier to like continue to evangelize with us,
(14:13):
right?
It's um it's it's really neat to see how quickly the objections and the roadblocks that an O.
E.
M.
Might throw up.
Um And now it's more of a total 1 80 especially in the last six months.
The dealer side of things is where the O.
E.
M.
S.
Were probably four or five years ago maybe maybe six years ago where it's just it's really new and I'm afraid and all I've ever heard of and they're placing the orders with these with an RV that's got these systems on from us right?
(14:47):
So they're really afraid or they're just afraid of what they don't know right?
And a lot of them were like I don't want to mess with it.
It's just uh and now they're seeing that that future is coming just like what keystone did back in 17 and 18 and there's they're raising their hand and saying okay hey we need help.
Right?
We we see it coming.
We were deniers now now it's here.
(15:08):
So just like the O.
M.
Saying will you please help us understand this?
And we stand behind it.
The dealer base is starting to say well you train our people will you help us understand it?
Will you you know teach us to fish.
Right?
The nice thing about working with O.
E.
M's for us is because they were so careful and they did allow us to help them develop their systems once it's in place once it's being shipped we don't have any issues ever with these systems.
(15:36):
You know it's like of course in the aftermarket people do,
who knows what with the matter?
So we,
we really did try hard to make it as foolproof as we could,
but we with an O E.
M.
The systems are just so well designed.
They're the same every time and step and repeat.
Yeah,
exactly.
And it's,
it's great for us.
We just don't have to worry about it.
You know,
the biggest worry is did the guys tighten the bolts right appropriately at the factory level?
(16:00):
Right?
Because it's step and repeat step and repeat for you.
Did you see this type of RV onslaught when you form the company?
Oh God,
no,
not when I formed the company,
no.
Uh,
you know,
I didn't,
I didn't hear about RVs really until like,
you know,
2015 something,
(16:21):
you know,
really,
when you were kind of started thinking about lithium,
um,
I I was more interested in off off grid and on grid residential storage.
That's why I did,
you know dragonfly,
that's why I was working with lithium batteries.
And actually my first try was to make battery powered guitar amplifiers.
(16:42):
That's a great way to lose money.
But it's the perfect niche right?
There was a need that you saw,
I don't know if it's perfect,
but it was an itch.
And you know,
it certainly,
I did not know the RV market at all.
I didn't realize how big it was,
but at the same time that Dragonfly was getting into it?
The market was just growing so rapidly before Covid,
(17:06):
all that stuff that the RV market was was growing so fast.
Actually.
Can you talk a little bit about the last decade?
And what are being has done?
Oh my gosh,
since the recession of 2007 and 2008 because that really that hit a lot of the RV companies pretty hard.
Right?
So that's sort of the low water mark.
Since then the market has gone from 252 175,000 coaches a year To the high water mark of over 600,000 just uh 12:15 months ago.
(17:37):
Right?
And it's it's a pretty steady pace up,
right?
And the more people that come into the camping space,
it's sort of,
each generation wants to have maybe the same stuff that they had at home,
right?
So when I first started in the nineties you might have had a single slide out and a tv right big box like R.
(18:00):
C.
A.
T.
V.
And now there's a we want to have an RV that can do a whole bunch of things.
We don't need it to be 60 ft long.
We want to cram a lot of that into a small space but we want to make sure that this stuff works right,
We want to make sure that I can operate my business remotely right or wherever I want to go and what I'm doing will work,
(18:29):
right?
So I wanna be,
I wanna be comfortable,
I wanna be hot when I need warm,
I need to be,
be cool when I'm hot,
all that kind of stuff and the more and more people don't want to have a generator clanging along,
right.
More folks realize if I invest some cash up front,
it saves me a lot of money or the way that I want to camp or be off grid later.
(18:53):
Um,
and so as improvements have been made to the way that these Rvs are built or engineered or thought about,
you know,
the sales continue to go up and up and up.
There's,
there's always going to be a need for americans to sort of like get out of their home,
right,
get out there and stay out there and with the growth of um jobs where you don't need to be in an office,
(19:18):
I don't see an end in that site.
And what I love about it is our being,
is not what I thought it was when I was a kid,
which is this giant,
you know,
gas guzzler or whatever,
you know what,
it's cousin Eddie from national lampoon's christmas vacation,
right?
Like a lot of people had that sort of like Rvs or this,
(19:41):
you know,
maybe not the most glamorous thing in the world,
but,
but what it turned out to be,
at least for me it's,
it's more of an outdoorsy camping sort of thing,
it's to get you somewhere nice,
you know,
and obviously if you're not plugged into a pedestal,
you can be anywhere.
And that's something that are being,
has become and lithium has facilitated that,
right?
Oh,
100%.
(20:01):
I mean to,
they're building half a million rvs a year.
They are not making a half a million new posts where you can plug into period end of story.
So either you're waiting to sign up to go to your local K.
O.
A.
Or or name the campground and that's why something like harvest host is exploded.
(20:21):
You know,
you can go rent space on a beautiful rolling,
you know,
farm in Virginia,
but you're not going to have power,
right?
You're gonna have to boondocks.
Okay,
well how do you,
how do you do that comfortably?
And that's where the lithium solution has started to explode.
Where guys are like,
okay,
(20:41):
so I can invest and have my camping experience or my getaway experience anywhere.
Um east of the Mississippi is one set of people in the way they've sort of been maybe accustomed to camping,
which is plugging in,
you know,
west of the Mississippi where there's all this blm land,
(21:02):
Holy smokes,
I mean that's where the tip of the spear has been out west where they want to just don't even come close to the grid tie and that's starting to make its way to the east coast,
primarily because more and more people are don't want to plan their weekend a year in advance.
(21:22):
They just want to hop in the van happen,
the class A or the Tobel and find a nice comfortable spot in the middle of nowhere where they can like chill out with their family.
So is this sort of comforting to the O E M.
S that they are now no longer limited to the growth of infrastructure that now people can,
you know,
anyone can have an RV and go any time they want.
(21:43):
Absolutely.
It's,
it's another sellable feature for the first time.
Our beer that might be um,
a younger family folks that are understand that they're willing to spend a certain amount of money above and beyond in order to get something that they really,
really want right?
Like it's,
it's a different mindset with the way that they're making their purchases and Yeah,
(22:10):
I mean 100% like just being able to get off that grid and do whatever they want whenever they want is is great for a young family.
Um,
and we're starting to see older RV folks that they're on their 7th,
8th or ninth RV and they've had 20 or 30 years of a horrible lead acid experience,
(22:32):
right?
Like they,
but they just chalk it up is like,
well that's just what you have to deal with,
right in indiana potholes every spring form because of all the freeze and thaw.
And so you're just kind of,
I guess the roads suck,
right?
There's that,
that's the mentality for these RVs that are like multi generation,
our beers just to lead acid batteries are terrible and It's gonna give up the fight and I'll just spend more money and you know,
(22:55):
it's one of the top forum conversations,
it's amazing.
There's always battery,
battery,
battery,
battery,
what do we do?
Hey,
these things are terrible.
And in the,
in the past 18 months,
24 months there's this enormous chorus of go battle born go lithium stop doing the same silly thing.
You don't have to be like wedged into this lead acid,
(23:17):
just sort of like pit,
you know,
come to the light and,
and,
and see what the lithium space can give to you.
So what does that mean to the,
to the state?
I know there's some RV manufacturers,
you know,
Winnebago and Tiffin and others,
but Indiana is still the hub.
Right?
So you grew up in Indiana,
you did not grow up RV,
(23:38):
but what does it mean in general to the average Hoosier that the average Hoosier,
I can tell you that the governor of Indiana,
it is one of the top things that he speaks about,
whether it's to the international community as far as manufacturing,
um,
let alone how he will showcase it versus the states around us,
(24:01):
you know,
Illinois michigan michigan's a big manufacturer of automobiles.
We are a,
were a big manufacturing hub for RVs and that's when he,
he really touts it as,
it's an impressive thing to see because it's very entrepreneurial.
A lot of these RV companies started out of a garage,
(24:21):
kind of a similar story,
right,
started out of a garage.
They,
they had an idea,
they wanted to do something a little bit different and before you know it,
you know,
they're,
you know,
multimillion dollar businesses that are,
are employing tens of thousands of folks in northern indiana and the fact that 85% or more Rvs are built in Elkhart is just amazing and it supports billions and billions of dollars um,
(24:48):
of ancillary things um,
for the state.
Yeah,
well I love to see the industry leading the way in,
in a way that you,
we really didn't think was possible because you've got,
these are beers that are putting solar,
that are putting all these batteries and other industries have not yet suit,
(25:08):
you know,
there's,
you know,
there's,
you've got the semi trucks and the,
and the work trucks and other industries that haven't RV owners are living off of the sun.
This is something I keep sort of talking about,
which is the fact that RV owners,
a lot of them are demonstrating how you can do that and we want to take that and extend that to folks living on the grid.
(25:30):
Like you can actually live off of the sun and not draw so much from the power plant,
right?
Oh,
absolutely.
It's,
it's weird when you think about um maybe the preconceived notion of R.
V.
Ng 20 or 30 or 40 years ago as perhaps maybe a little backwoods,
a little backwards,
you know,
not cutting edge.
And then you sort of juxtapose that to what they're doing,
(25:53):
right?
I mean they're carrying multiple voltages,
they're doing a bunch of really wild things in a wobbly box down the highway and now they've almost got their own micro grid where if you've got your RV parked next to your house and you've got a large battery bank and solar and all that stuff,
(26:16):
you have the opportunity to turn that RV into your backup generator,
right,
So that the power goes down in your house.
In theory,
you can take that power that's on your coach and at least power one of the legs on your 2 40 your house.
Right.
I mean,
these are those things that the,
the R.
V.
Or their tinkerers there,
there are thinkers about some of these things and they're brave in and how they'll accept technologies that maybe the rest of the um the population haven't gotten into and it's almost out of necessity,
(26:46):
right?
I mean,
if I'm living somewhere and I can't plug in and I can't do this.
Okay,
well I gotta figure out how to do it.
Um and what becomes niche eventually spreads into the more mainstream and that's what we're seeing in RVs and you're starting to see it.
Uh it's really kind of fun is a lot of our beers or some of our outdoorsman or boaters or whatnot,
(27:07):
you know,
they've experienced our batteries in their campers and so when they're looking at making business decisions and maybe a similar field where they're needing to utilize battery technology,
uh we were just talking to a gentleman who uses our batteries on his boat,
but he also as part of a company that handles a lot of the industrial material handling equipment,
(27:30):
so like floor scrubbers and tugs and whatnot.
And he sort of a lightning moment.
He said,
well,
I can probably take my lithium out,
right,
and I can do a proto and I think that this is a value add to this industry.
Sure.
Of course.
Right.
So it's kind of interesting how in the RV space where people learn to live with it,
how it's now making its way into other commercial applications.
(27:51):
Yeah.
So if you really wanna know electrical systems get an RV right,
right.
If you want to do a deep dive in the rat's nest that maybe maybe inside of an RV.
Yeah,
there's a lot going on.
I mean,
you've just multiple voltages,
you know,
you've got yeah,
2 40 in the 50 amp side of things,
multiple different things.
I mean,
look,
there's teams of engineers at RV companies um when you moved into a motorized space where you have an army of engineers that have to make sure that this thing that looks relatively simple and straightforward operates in a simple and straightforward manner.
(28:25):
Um,
and they've all struggled with part of that power solution with the lead acid.
Um,
and we've been able to to answer a ton of those.
Well I know at Dragonfly,
we are proud to be part of that solution and you personally have been a big part of it as well with us.
So we appreciate it.
(28:46):
And uh,
thank you so much there,
there was a lot of great insight there coming from an indiana boy,
appreciate it.
Thanks for coming on the podcast.
Certainly.
Thanks,
appreciate it.
I'd like to thank our guests today,
our very own josh miller.
Be sure to subscribe to the limitless Energy podcast on your favorite podcast platform.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.