Episode 168 - Saving the Comic Book Industry...Again

This week, Kris and Dave revisit their second episode ever and discuss how to save the comic book industry. Do their three-year-old takes hold up, or have their views evolved? Plus, AI is already replacing artists, CD Projekt Red doubles down on Cyberpunk, plus another Nerd Nightmare, ready or not!

Nerd News

AI is already replacing artists

CD Projekt Red doubles down on Cyberpunk 2077

Byword Big Talk

Saving the Comic Book Industry

Nerd Commendations

Ready or Not (2019)

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Today we're taking a look back to our podcast infancy.

(00:06):
Yes, we're going back to how to save the comic book industry.
Is our advice still apropos?
But do we need to update our hot takes?
The byword starts now.
Welcome to episode 168 of the Nerd Byword.

(00:47):
The only podcast that is willing to admit when we're wrong.
Just kidding.
In all seriousness, today we are going to take a look back to one of our very first episodes.
Episode 2, How to Save the Comics, which was recorded and released on June 8, 2020.

(01:07):
So the interesting, the kind of revisit this topic on how to save the comic books, revisiting
these takes, and are they still relevant or do we need to adjust for a three-year difference?
But first, as always, it is time for...
Alright Dave, hit me with it.

(01:33):
AI, my friend, AI, back in the news.
This one from a different website than I would usually peruse, but I came across this in my
extensive reading on AI and how it's influencing the comic book industry.
This is not directly comic book industry, but comic book adjacent, and I thought it was
very interesting to talk about.
So this is from a website called Creative Block, block here spelled with a Q, which deals

(01:58):
with graphic design, web design, and so on and so forth.
And here a gentleman by the name of Paul Hatton reported on a little kerfuffle that was posted
on Twix, the artist formerly known as Twitter, right?
So here is the story.
Apparently there is a concept artist who goes by the moniker of Dewfresh on Twix, and

(02:28):
he has been...
He's pretty experienced freelance concept artist and illustrator apparently.
And he received a call according to his various Twitter posts.
Yes, I'm still calling it Twitter, I'm trying, man.
And he received a call from an advertising company who needed his services.
He had worked with them previously, but they hadn't worked together for a while.

(02:51):
And it was going quite well apparently until the company representative said that they only
reached out because their in-house AI technician was too busy, and they were therefore forced
to find a artist.
So this is where Dewfresh kind of saw Red.
He is a very...

(03:11):
A day, let's say day, because I'm not sure if it's he or she.
Let's go with day, or maybe it is day.
I really don't know.
They are a proponent of no NFTs and no AI, and so Dewfresh was the wrong person to contact
and talking about using an in-house AI technician.
So, he, they posted, "Are we artists and illustrators bleeped?"

(03:39):
Received a call this morning from advertising company.
We used to work together a lot during the last few years, but rather rarely lately.
And then goes into, "Hey, you know, I'm not sure what we're going to do now."
Considering that people are having in-house AI technicians to actually create their art
now, instead of hiring actual live artists.

(04:02):
Dewfresh posts, "I am afraid that even with laws protecting artists, the damage is already
done within a few years, art will probably be a hobby for wealthy people and definitely
won't be able to make a living."
And this is obviously really concerning, especially considering how deeply our podcast is
involved in the comic book industry.

(04:23):
We can see how this is going to potentially affect the creation of comic books as companies,
especially at stuff like the Big Two, DC Marvel, which are ultimately corporate-owned.
My shift towards trying to use AI models to take shortcuts with their art and hire less
artists, thereby cutting out the overhead and making more profit.

(04:45):
I find this obviously extremely troubling.
I've spoken about this before, and so have Eukris.
How we are not proponents of using AI to replace human creativity and human labor.
But we've also kind of been at the point where we've been talking about this in very theoretical

(05:06):
situations because the general sense, I think, has been that AI is not quite there yet
to actually fully replace human creativity.
But it appears that there are companies already at this point, even with the technology being

(05:26):
sort of in its infancy, are already moving away from live artists to these AI creations.
So the future is now, and it's extremely troubling, Chris.
One of the things that is just truly upsetting about it is how quickly society as a whole

(05:48):
just wants to take the quickest path.
And a lot of people see AI generators as one of those quick paths to like getting the desired
result and not having to wait for an artist to complete something, not waiting for a commission
or paid work for a freelance artist.

(06:10):
So I think that's the most disheartening thing, and that's not exclusive to comic books.
It's not exclusive to any of the nerd-centric things that we cover on our show.
I talked about this before.
I struggle with my kids using online translators to complete their work.
We struggle with kids being tempted by things like chat GPT.

(06:35):
And I think this is probably the most unsettling thing is like you say, AI is not there yet as
a whole, whole cloth replacement for individual artists.
But if we just keep feeding these search engines with stuff, we're kind of expediting that
process, you know what I mean?

(06:57):
I would like to think that the emboldening of individual creators, like what we saw with
the WGA, what we're continuing to see with SAGAFTA during these strikes, I would like
to think that that would hold some power there to kind of prevent this.

(07:18):
But I'm like, it's almost like I'm grasping it straws here because of just the overwhelming
sense of urgency in the world.
It would seem the worldwide populist just wants things fast.
They want it now.
They don't want to wait.
One page takes more than 30 seconds to load.

(07:47):
So here's hoping that creators rights and striking and refusing to work with companies that
participate in this will mean something.
But I don't have high hopes.
And I'm sorry if that comes across as pessimistic.
I do believe we're at the point now where legally I think it is time for governments to step

(08:12):
in here.
Absolutely.
So the AI models themselves, there's nothing wrong with them.
I mean, the problem ultimately is what they feed them to teach them.
And what they're doing is they're feeding these AI models essentially copyrighted works.
And then so when these AI models generate something, it is very clear and you can see

(08:33):
time and time again, which artists are specifically being generated.
I've seen people particularly on social media specifically say, well, I fed this AI model.
I wanted to look like blank artist.
And it's not that the AI is creating something original.
They are literally regurgitating stuff that they've been fed, right?

(08:57):
This is how AI learns, but is looking at all quote unquote looking at all these different
artists actual work.
And I think there needs to be some kind of law that says that you cannot train AI models
on copyrighted works unless the artist is being has given permission, whether that is through
compensation or whatever, right?

(09:17):
Because they're so quick, they're so quick to strike something down.
Like if you share a clip on social media or like pirating streams or torrenting or anything
like that, they're so quick to strike down things like that.
Why is this any different?
Because ultimately you're dealing with the individual worker and individual creativity

(09:38):
and not corporate owned IP.
When you have a massive corporation going after something, it gets done.
But when you have an individual artist trying to protect their livelihood, apparently that
is not as big of a priority because there's not as much raw cash involved.
I mean, that's what it comes down to.
But this is ultimately an issue of intellectual property.

(09:59):
It's not so much about the technology.
I've said here before, there are workflow things that you can do with AI that even I find
very interesting.
But these are things that are not based on copyrighted works necessarily.
You know, feed it a piece of text to level it for students of various reading abilities,
for example.

(10:19):
That sort of stuff is extremely useful.
So I am not, you know, anytime somebody says anything against AI and social media, the
AI bros come out and start throwing around boomer and stuff like that.
And I'm not such an old foggy that I don't appreciate technology and what it can do for
humanity.

(10:39):
But the difference is I wanted to do for humanity, not replace humanity, right?
And so ultimately, I just think it's really, really time that we deal with the intellectual
property component of this.
Imagine, and I think we're going to have to get to this point where we have like an AI model
that can make like cartoons, right?

(11:01):
And then you just feed it all the Disney cartoons and suddenly it spits out Disney cartoons
for you.
And then Disney is going to be like, now wait a minute, now I don't want it.
And then we might get something done.
But it's very troubling how long it's taking, you know, lawmakers to catch up with this
technology and do something to protect individual artists who are clearly being ripped off

(11:22):
by this technology.
They're quick to step into anything as long as they think they can, you know, get some kind
of advantage out of it is the problem.
All right, let's talk CD Projekt Red of really good developer.
I'm interested to hear what you got to say here, Chris.
What's new?
Well, CD Projekt Red, who you and I both have an affinity for based on their Witcher video

(11:44):
games and the production company, a little game called Cyberpunk.
You heard of it, Cyberpunk 2077.
I heard many things.
Well, so famously was released in 2020 and it was a dumpster fire to say the least.

(12:07):
Numerous updates, bug fixes, all of this.
It was de-listed from the PlayStation Store.
It was a hot, bubbly, sick mess.
It did rebound after the big 2.0 update, however, and sold well.
So it also followed up with a popular Netflix anime that I was not aware of until I did research

(12:34):
into this story.
So it kind of gave a boost.
And then anytime you attach Keanu Reeves to an IP, you're bound to get popularity in that.
And now they have released a single expansion for Cyberpunk 2077.

(12:55):
And according to Kataku in reports, CD Projekt Red spent over $80 million on this one expansion.
So it's just fascinating to me that something that was so aligned at release, they have gone
double down on something that was so widely criticized.

(13:20):
Now I did play Cyberpunk 2077 and enjoyed it.
I wish it had a larger scope, I wish there was much more time that I could be invested in
it.
I might be looking at Phantom Liberty in purchasing it.
But then I also saw an IGN that they are announcing a live action Cyberpunk 2077 project.

(13:45):
Now you and I have this discussion at length of, do we need a live action, everything?
No.
It's interesting, and I'm a big fan of CD Projekt Red, love the Witcher, to the moon and
the fact, it's interesting that as chaotic as a release as Cyberpunk was, that they are

(14:07):
now doubling and tripling down on this, spending so much money on first this expansion and now
very early stages.
But some cool names attached to this cool acclimations, the production, they're producing it with
an audience content, which is a production company that did True Detective and Mr. Robot,

(14:32):
award-winning films like The Revenant and Spotlight.
So there's some cool names attached to this creatively speaking, but I'm just honestly
shocked.
I don't know if I'm intrigued by this very much, but it's just wild to kind of see how
the tables turn here.

(14:53):
Oh, I think everybody loves a comeback story, and CD Projekt Red has been making good
products for a while, and so seeing them flounder, strongly as they did with Cyberpunk 2077
was kind of disappointing.
I think there was a lot of behind the scene stuff, a handful of stories about it that were
more about the corporate arm of the company trying to push things out too fast, and they

(15:17):
weren't really done cooking basically.
And now that they've had some more time, I'm not surprised that they were able to write
the ship and improve the game tremendously.
It's interesting too, because Cyberpunk had such a poor reception when it was first released,
and now flip side, I've seen several of these, you know, how can I put this nicely?

(15:39):
Let's say, anti-Starfield Bros online, specifically pointing to Cyberpunk 2077 as, this is why Starfield
sucks because Cyberpunk 2077 looks so much better.
And I'm like, dude, just a few years ago, everybody was dunking on Cyberpunk 2077, can you simmer
down a little bit?

(16:01):
So I'm glad that they're making a comeback the way they are.
I think it's just the expansion of everything into franchising and live action adaptations
and all that.
I'm losing interest in that very, very quickly.
I'm okay with the video game, and sometimes just being a video game, you know, in a movie,
just sometimes being a movie.
And an animated feature, very importantly, just kind of being an animated feature, right?

(16:24):
Not every cartoon needs a live action, quote unquote, remake.
And live action, in quotation marks, sometimes if you look at the quote unquote live action,
remake of the Lion King that Disney put out, for example, it's just basically, you know,
CG finished.
It's still, you know, animated just at higher resolution.
So, you know, I'm not a big fan of that.

(16:46):
I think it is fine for a media, for a piece of media to be specific to a specific medium,
if that makes sense, without it getting adapted and transformed over and over again.
But I understand where they're coming from because they're just maximizing profits, which is
what they're supposed to do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
but I prefer when something kind of stands on its own two feet.

(17:09):
I have specifically not to touch Cyberpunk 2077 because I wanted them to have a couple of
years to iron out their problems.
And it started to sound like they about have.
So it might be time for me to actually give the game a shot now.
Yeah, it was a fun play.
I had a good time playing it once they fixed all that stuff.
I did, I also waited until that second big update.

(17:30):
And you know me, that big digital discount in the shop.
But as someone who is the lead evangelist for Starfield, they've better hold me back.
I have completed the main, I've completed the game, the new game plus.
I'm almost finished with it all over again.
It's just like on endless repeat.

(17:51):
Like it's one of those games for me that like you go to the, one of those games where
you're constantly thinking about it, like I go to the grocery store and I'm like, hmm,
I need to stock up on this.
How much health is this snack gonna restore?
If I eat this pack of Oreos, how much health am I gonna regain?
It's just in a lot of, a lot of the stuff that you reference is just seems like sour grapes.

(18:16):
I don't want to say it's Sony fans, but I'm gonna say it's Sony fans.
But yeah, Starfield is a masterpiece, absolute masterpiece and you can miss me with that.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to trying it.
I've read that the recent update on the Steam Deck is making huge strides and making
it, making able to play it on a Steam Deck, which I think is incredible.

(18:38):
They're doing a lot of tweaking on the Steam Deck behind the scenes lately.
There's a big 3.5 update that apparently is starting to make things playable on the deck
that weren't before.
So I'm thinking, you know, I wait a little longer, they get this thing tweaked, I lower
the settings a little bit and I can actually enjoy this on the Steam Deck, which would
be heavenly for me because I love playing on that device, so I'm ready for it, man.

(19:01):
That sounds perfect, man.
I'm telling you, and I'm playing it on the series, as fans of our show know, I'm not a big
spec, bro, or anything like that, but it's one of the most gorgeous gaming experiences
I've ever had so much so that you all know how I feel about Assassin's Creed.
I bought Assassin's Creed, Mirage, and I cannot bring myself to start it.
I pre-ordered it and everything.

(19:21):
I have not even hit start yet because I just keep playing Starbeard.
All right, that wraps up Nerd news.
When we come back from our first break, our Byword Big Talk has us revisiting episode
2.
Stick around.

(19:42):
Welcome back to this week's main course, The Entrez segment.
We call it our Byword.
And keeping with that weird, strange analogy, because I'm just hungry, we're looking at leftovers.

(20:03):
I don't know how well we can have leftovers three years later, but here we go.
We are looking at that.
There's some mold on these leftovers, man.
We're looking back on how to save the comic book industry.
We're going to look at the three suggestions or strategies that we had then.
Do they need to be updated?
Do they need to be tweaked?

(20:23):
What do we need to do?
So we've got to then and now for each of our strategies.
Dave, what's first up for you?
When we first recorded that episode, and we're talking about saving the comic book industry,
we're at the height of the COVID pandemic malaise and shopping was down.
You know, numbers were down across the board for pretty much anything, but the comic book industry

(20:45):
was taking a pretty heavy hit as well at the time.
And so that certainly played a factor in the downturn, but although the industry has recovered
somewhat from that downturn, I think it's fair to say that if you look at the breadth of history
of the comic book industry, the American comic book market used to be much, much healthier,

(21:05):
selling significantly more issues than they do today.
And I think nobody really denies that.
I think most books in like the top 11 to 25 or so sell anywhere between 40 and 50,000 maybe
copy copies.
And when you think that there used to be comic books that sold like a cool million copies,

(21:25):
that is obviously not the same industry that it used to be.
And as become book fans, it shouldn't be surprising that you and I in particular have a vested
interest in the industry flourishing and doing well and comic books proliferating and everybody
loving this medium because it is an awesome medium.
So in that, when we first recorded this episode and we talked about how to improve comic

(21:53):
book prospects, one of my ideas was to downgrade, to simplify the art, to simplify the kind
of paper used to something more newsprinty and cheaper and thereby driving prices down
and making comic books, you know, a disposable hobby again rather than a collector's market.

(22:15):
And I think there's a certain amount of truth to that that, you know, the comic book market
has become more collectors oriented and less about disposable income and just like, you
know, reading a comic book and then leaving it on the subway or something and the next
person picks it up and reads it, you know, people kind of gave up on their comic books and

(22:36):
left them laying around or gave them away frequently in the past because they were a cheap
--Like a newspaper?
--Like a newspaper exactly.
I don't think that's ever coming back though.
I think that idea was naive, especially since a newsprint has changed too, you know, with
the newspaper industry also going through its pains and there being less and less, you

(23:00):
know, daily in newspapers around the country now.
Newsprint has also gone up in price a lot and, you know, changing the industry back to being
able to be printed on newsprint would mean that colorists would have to do their job completely
differently because the way color reproduces on newsprint is different and I just don't
think that this is ever coming back.

(23:22):
So then the question becomes, what is a viable alternative if this downgrade idea is not
going to work?
And so to me, I think there are certain lessons that the American comic book industry should
embrace from the Japanese manga market.
Now hold, pause, there are a whole lot of ideas that Americans need to adopt from Japanese

(23:44):
culture just broadly speaking.
Oh, yeah, besides food, I don't know why, the only thing that American culture seems to
be interested in, you know, quote unquote, amalgamating from other cultures is the food,
like, dude.
There are many cultures that have great ideas go to Europe sometime and ask people about
health care, for example.

(24:05):
Anyways, that is neither here nor there.
So as far as the manga situation, you know, a lot of people that are, you know, how can
I put this nicely?
But let's call them manga bros, right?
That go on social media and proclaim the supremacy of all things Japanese comic books and
denigrate the American comic book market constantly.

(24:27):
They're really focused on content, right?
I'm not really interested in that here.
I'm much more interested in the way the publishing side works.
One of the things that I think is really awesome in the manga market is number one size.
I think it's very cool that they have this sort of trade paperback book size to them.

(24:52):
They're very, you know, easy to carry around much easier than a floppy comic book.
You know, easy to fit in a backpack or something much easier sometimes.
And more importantly, they are thicker.
I think the, I think the real ratio and the thing that I was trying to get to when it came
to the downgrade idea is bang for buck, right?

(25:14):
I think that comic books are not perceived by the general non-comic reading public as
a actual value.
If you can go to Walmart and go to the, to a bin and get a blu-ray for five bucks and
be entertained for two hours, or you can spend five bucks on night terrors, Batman number
two of two for four, ninety nine and be entertained for a grand total of 10 minutes.

(25:36):
The bang for the buck is not there, right?
And so although I love floppies and I love the serialized storytelling to a certain extent,
I think that one of the things that that we need to start doing is just making, you know,
comic book phone books, you know, these really big collections.
You go out, you get one like, you know, shown and jumped for example, you know, sucker has

(25:59):
all these different stories going on, right?
And is it collected in a big fat magazine and then you can sit down, you can read those.
And then later on those stories sort of get collected in these, you know, trade paperbacks
that are, you know, really the size of a regular novel, paperback novel.

(26:20):
And I think that that's actually a really cool business model.
Because you kind of still have the serialized nature, but you're like collecting them.
Imagine for example, you have from DC Comics a Superman magazine, right?
That comes out once a month.
It's big, it's fat and it has Superman in it, an action comics in it and Superboy and Super

(26:42):
Girl and any Superman related stories and you have like, you know, ten different series
and you have like 200 page wapper that you can get.
Now obviously it costs more sure, but you get such a bang for your buck at that point that
you're much more interested in getting something like that.
And if you only want to, you know, follow one specific series then you follow the collections,

(27:03):
right?
But I mean, I would be thrilled with something like that.
I also think it would be fair to say that we ought to occasionally embrace black and
white a little more.
I think that, you know, that is one of the big keys for what makes manga so accessible,
right?
You're basically, you know, printing in a format that is reminiscent of a prose paperback,

(27:28):
right?
And because you're in black and white, it's very, very affordable.
These individual volumes, if you go to a bookstore, you know, they fill shelves and shelves
because they're very popular and they're really affordable in the grand scheme of things,
especially compared to American comic books.
So I think, you know, embracing some of those lessons, it's very least mixing some of that

(27:50):
into what the comic book market is already doing would be a really, really smart idea to
captivate maybe a new audience that is not considering American comic books right now.
It's so funny that you say that because I just turned around Dave to the bookshelf right
behind me and I got the essential Avengers volume one, the Avengers one through 24, which 24

(28:17):
comic book issues in black and white.
You remember these essential Marvel collections?
Dude, I had, I had a whole shelf full of essential collections.
I loved them.
It was such a great way, you know, in a dirt cheap way.
They were like 15, 18, 20 bucks at the most and just like so many comic books in there,

(28:38):
I was able to read.
I think I had like nine volumes of amazing Spider-Man in the essential collections.
Most of my early Spider-Man reading was via those essentials.
That's how I know most of my Spider-Man history.
Yeah.
So the cover price listed here is 1699.
This was of course probably printed, I would guess 20 years ago, at least.

(29:01):
But I got it out of use bookstore here locally for $8.50.
For $8.50, I have 24 comic book issues.
Come on.
It's not, it's not even comparable.
And it's black and white.
So it brings me back to those days where I would steal my grandma's comics and sports sections
of the newspaper and just read Garfield and stuff like that.

(29:25):
So yeah, this is definitely the way to go.
Now you're reminding me that I need to go stop by said bookstore again.
Because it's been far too long.
It's also funny that you mentioned those because I remember those essential books very
well and one of the things that they did with those essential books is drum roll, please
stay down great at the paper.
It was a lesser paper quality, more reminiscent of the paper that you find in a paperback

(29:49):
novel, right?
So they did exactly that.
They were able to save a lot of money in the printing by abandon the paper quality
and doing something that's constantly being used anyways, the papers popping up in every
novel you see.
So yeah, I love the essential line with all my heart.
I thought it was a great way to reprint some of their earliest comic books.

(30:14):
Now one of the things, one of the things listening back, it was really interesting.
I listened back to episode two to prep for this episode.
And boy, have we come a long way?
There was a lot of ums and us and well actually and you know, and I also sounded like I was
being held captive in the tin can.

(30:36):
So we've come a long way.
But one of the things I remember saying back then about digital versus physical is having
children and being able to keep things nice with kids.
And this essential book, I'm not heartbroken because I spent 850 on it probably six years
ago.

(30:57):
So the binding is falling apart.
So it's not, it's not in great condition, but I could still read it.
So it's just a funny kind of call back to that episode.
All right, man.
So what is something that has changed about your attitude and how to improve the comic book
industry since back from episode two?

(31:18):
I think something that rang true from all of our strategies last episode and I think is
still going to ring true probably the thing that is going to be ever present when you connect
both of these episodes is accessibility.

(31:39):
You know back then I was talking about it should be at the grocery store.
It should be where you found your first comic.
This should be in the checkout line at Walmart or Target or insert department store.
And I think they've done a decent enough job of updating that.
But for the most part, they are still shoved over there in the trading card aisle.

(32:05):
That one forgotten one in between the different checkouts.
I will say that they have kind of, I was happy to see one of the things that I said put
it in the book section put it in the book section.
Well now I go back to the book sections at Walmart at Target and I see trade paperbacks
of like the original Mismarval run that we did by G Willow Wilson in company.

(32:28):
So that's encouraging to see.
I saw infinity gauntlet back there.
And I was happy to see that they were only like one or two copies left.
So they seem to be, they must have been selling well.
So that was encouraging.
But the thing that I want to update on this is something that I saw yesterday when I went
to five below.

(32:49):
The kids dragged me out of the house.
They wanted to go to the last day of fall break.
They were like, hey, we want to go somewhere and we want to get out of the house.
That's all right.
And I was happy to see comics there.
There was a Jason Aaron Thor trade paperback.
It was hardcover for five bucks.
That was great.
Love that.
I think I already have it.
So I did not purchase it.
However, the thing that I have kind of soured on is these random grab bags of comics.

(33:17):
They'll just have like the one I saw yesterday was from DC.
It was like Wonder Woman 764 or something like that.
How is that new reader friendly?
How is that going to hook someone just like random straight issues of comics that have no
connectivity, no entry point?
Like let's just not do that.
Now give me four number ones.

(33:38):
That's a different story, but these just random numbered things.
Those are not going to hook people.
And they're certainly not going to hook kids more on that later.
Yeah, I hate those grab bags, man.
I know that when I was younger and those first started becoming a thing, I remember family
members picking up these random grab bags for me.

(34:00):
And I always was like, yeah, thank you and I opened them up.
And I was like, well, what am I supposed to do with this?
There's Gen 13 number 14.
And I'm like, well, what about one through 13?
And I have no idea what the story is even about.
I think something like a random grab bag would work a lot better if some of the comic book
industry would still be interested in telling done in one stories, but they don't really do

(34:23):
that anymore.
You know, everything is the same.
What is the common thing?
What is the common thing?
We're writing for the trade.
Writing for the trade, yeah, which is also interesting because that has changed dramatically
too.
There's this, but in the last few years, they went from six issue trades to five issue trades
to four issue trades.
So storylines are becoming shorter again, but only because they're including less in a trade

(34:47):
while still, you know, charging the same amount.
I remember I was shocked and I picked up a trade paper back and the sort of traditional thing
I'd gotten used to was six issues per trade and suddenly it was only four.
And I'm like, well, maybe I should have bought these individual issues because this is not
saving me any money.
You know, so, but yeah, I mean, the writing for the trade makes
it impossible to have any kind of joy out of these random grab bags.

(35:10):
What it is is this is, you know, left over printer on that they couldn't sell off and they're
just randomly putting it in bags and it's an afterthought.
I don't think this is even meant to hook anybody.
And I don't think there's really any joy in that.
Absolutely.
I agree with that.
Random grab bags are not yet.
It's not a good way of putting stuff out there.
I will say one thing that I have appreciated is that in recent years, it seems like

(35:35):
rather than destroying overstock DC and Marvel in particular have just been selling it to
that bargain outlet, all these.
And so when you walk into an all these these days, they have just a metric crap ton of
like these really awesome trade paperbacks all over the place that are like at a steep
discount because they're just left overs from a printer on that, you know, and it's not

(35:56):
destroyed.
No, that one that one I enjoy because for $10, I'm not getting four comics.
I'm getting like 20.
That's correct.
Yeah.
So that is much much smarter, I think, you know, there you are taking a problem, which is
that you didn't sell your entire printer and you're telling you're turning it into an
advantage by putting it somewhere where comic books are generally not always sold after,

(36:21):
you know, in this, you know, bargain outlet and, you know, at that reduced price, people
will pick them up.
That may not normally and not that is a smart move.
But I agree the random grabbacks are just, I hate those things.
Now you want to talk about random.
I bought one of those, one or two of those from all these and like I have them in my classroom

(36:44):
on the bookshelf and they would be like, what the heck is this if kids walk by like dude,
I don't know.
It was the random grab banking might have.
So they'll have something like IDW, TMNT.
But then they'll also have like ROM the space night or like some valiant comics from back in
the day, like it is all ages of comics in so many different ways.

(37:09):
The one thing that the one positive thing that I have seen you and I love this DC, I've seen
this with specifically, but I've also seen it with some Marvel legends.
They're including number one issues with action figures.
Like that's duh.
Yes.
Genius.
Yes.

(37:29):
Yes.
That should be standard operating procedure.
Superman Rebirth number one is the one that I've seen the most of in like wall greens even,
Walmart, Target, stuff like that, but also some like Marvel legends figures I have seen.
So that is deeply encouraging and more of that.
You know, I appreciate it.
And I know this is adjacent, but I think it needs to be said.

(37:51):
I've really appreciated how James Gunn, since he is taking over the DC movie division,
how he's constantly talking about, you know, the comic books that are behind and inspiring
the new upcoming screen adaptations.
I think that is the right attitude too.
And I think once we get merged, you know, from those movies, like, you know, we get Superman,

(38:16):
you know, what is the movie going to be called Superman legacy, I think.
Yeah.
If you're putting out Superman legacy action figures, you better believe there should be
a comic book bundled with each one of those figures.
I think that is the exact smart thing to do.
You get a low-slaying action figure and you get a reprint of low-slaying number one, you
know, like leaning to that.
Absolutely.
Plus, the fact that the main series is good.

(38:38):
With fax Emily ones, where they're, they're trying to give those away anyway, those are
the fax Emily editions should be cheaper.
But also, like, that's something I love on DC Universe Infinite, which is a big development.
There is a big development, Dave, since we recorded that episode also long ago.
I don't believe DC Universe Infinite is existed.
Yeah, we'll talk about, like, we'll talk more about digital in a little bit.

(39:03):
But one thing, you know, before, before not to put the car before the horse is something
that I love that both DC and Marvel do a good job of comicsology as well is when you
get into those apps and they have, like you said, with James Gunn, they have all those in
a collection on the app.

(39:24):
Marvel Comics, Loki, Season 2 is coming out right now.
They have the reading guide for Loki and things that you're seeing.
So that's something that they're doing a much better job of, comicsology as well.
Yeah, and I think that digital space in particular is so, so important to the future of comic book
industry.
We'll talk more about that.
I have a lot to say on that, but you're absolutely right.

(39:45):
They're doing a much better job trying to tie in with some of the adaptations and stuff.
I really like that.
And I think you are going to have more about that here pretty soon too.
Listen, we're cooking and we've only gotten through our first one.
So let's pick up the pace here, old friend.
All right.
Your second point, revisited and new.
Yeah, so then I made a big point out of accessibility to old stories, right?

(40:12):
So the idea that you should be able to sit down and read all of amazing Spider-Man if you
want to because you really like the character, but things were just not very accessible at
this point, right?
The essential line that we just talked about is was probably the most affordable way to
read some of those older issues.
But even while I was buying the amazing Spider-Man in these essential volumes, I noticed very

(40:33):
quickly that they had a print run.
They would go that would sell out.
They would have another print run and then they just wouldn't reprint them anymore.
So when I would go to stores, I would notice that the prices were starting to become inflated
because there was no way to get more.
And so keeping these old issues in front of people because they might be, quote unquote,

(40:55):
old, but that doesn't mean they're bad, right?
It's like watching an old black and white movie come at me.
I love my old black and white movies.
That was to me was key.
You have this huge back catalog why you're not making it available.
Well, I think some of that issue has been alleviated thanks to digital.
And again, I want to spend a lot of time talking about digital at the end.

(41:18):
So I think my thing now, rather than worrying about reprinting these old series necessarily
is accessibility, not accessibility as far as in stores, but accessibility of the actual
content.
I think we're really struggling there, man.

(41:38):
The American comic book industry, particularly the big two are really, really bad when it comes
to making a story accessible and new reader friendly.
We're constantly getting relaunches blah, blah, blah, and that's all fine and then.
I understand why they do that.
New number one is get a bump.
It's a natural jumping on point, whatever.

(42:00):
But you're still building on the back of the series that came before that and the series
that came before that and the series that came before that.
And so it is almost impossible at any given time to pick up a random comic book, read it,
and get something out of it without having a vast knowledge of history behind you.
You just experienced this for our last episode when you were reading the flash number one

(42:22):
and suddenly you have impulse and max mercury in your face in the first page, right?
And you have no context for these characters.
And so I think that is a significant problem and I think there needs to be a greater emphasis
on shorter stories done in ones.

(42:43):
I recap pages.
I think it's very, very important to have recap pages and I'm glad that in some series does
have been making a comeback but for many they have just kind of disappeared.
Having a recap on the front page of the story so far to help people get a sense for what's
going on super important.
I remember in the Star Wars expanded universe for a little while that even had a page in

(43:06):
the front of like a breakdown of the characters involved.
So you had an understanding for who all the people were that were involved.
I think that's really smart too.
You can very easily when you're doing a group superhero story like Justice League or something.
I love Marvel.
I love Marvel does that.
Yeah, you know you have just a page where you have like these are the characters, these
are their powers one or two sentences on each character.

(43:29):
So when you jump into the story it makes more sense.
I think accessibility in that case is key.
How do you make the content of your book accessible?
They always say forget who said this but every comic book is somebody's first, right?
So if you keep that in mind, how can you make sure that's attributed to Stanley whether

(43:51):
or not it's actually Stanley.
That's another story.
That's another story, right?
But if that's the case then as an industry you need to make sure that you're giving people
something to come back for, right?
Every issue needs to be satisfying in some way.
Look, I tell you what, this is something that I worked on for a while and I've never quite

(44:15):
gotten to yet.
But I had a concept.
It's in one of my drawers here somewhere for an ongoing comic book series.
And one of the hooks of how I was wanting to structure it is I wanted to structure it
like a television series.
Now not streaming television because streaming television is a very, very different animal.
I'm talking about network television.

(44:36):
So the idea was that every issue is a standalone story but contributes somewhat to a larger
arc.
And now basically the idea would be you have ten, you go over one year, it's a monthly
book, you have ten standalone stories that are all leading up with B plots and stuff to

(44:58):
a two-part finale.
That's issue 11 and 12.
That's a season of the comic book and then you start over again with a new arc.
If that makes sense.
And so that kind of format makes sense to me.
If you're going to steal from Mr. Monk, you better watch yourself.
I'm just kidding.
Mr. Monk.
Yeah.

(45:18):
I think that's the best I've ever seen that done where you had this through line spoiler
for a show that came out twenty years ago.
But like the fact that you have like a case by case episodic thing is very Sherlock Holmes
Ian type thing and then you have the constant through line of him trying to solve his wife's
murder.
That's the best I've ever seen it done.

(45:40):
I will also and I know you have paused your watch of this but I will also say that another
series that did this extremely well.
I know.
I agree.
I agree.
It's just I'm so overwhelmed.
Starfield.
I can't do anything.
Starfield has to have to do anything else.

(46:00):
So the concept of having a different quote unquote big bad every season, right?
And you see here I have your standalone stories, but you also have always a little bit contributed
in each episode towards the resolution with the big bad of the season.
And then you start over the following season with the new big bad that that was really smart
to so using it approach like that in comic books.

(46:26):
For example, would assure that every every issue is a complete tale in some way.
And then there's a satisfaction that was a really cool story.
I wonder if the next one is this cool, you know, and there's still an element of cliffhanger
because it's part of an overall arc.
But you have a greater focus on done in one story.

(46:46):
I, you know, if I look back at old comic books, you know, they used to have multiple stories
per issue and how it takes multiple issues per story.
I think, I think somewhere we might have gone a little bit wrong.
If you want, if you want floppy comic books, if you want, yes, if you want 22 page comic books,
then you need to tell a 22 page story, I think.

(47:07):
And that doesn't mean you can't have larger arcs and you can't collect them in trades and
all that, but I think there needs to be a certain amount of, you know, rising to initial incident,
rising tension, resolution and each piece.
You know what broke us?
You know what broke us?
And there are elements from this era that we both enjoyed, the clone saga broke us.
The clone saga broke everybody.

(47:29):
Broke our spirits.
But yeah, I think accessibility of content to end my rant is really key here.
It's going to be one of our jam packed episodes, I feel, because we're not even halfway through
our points, but I totally agree.
And it's far, like, like, take this as a note, me, harkening back to the olden days as the

(47:54):
resident anti nostalgia person.
But like, I think this is, like, how many times did we get Peter Parker's origin story told
us in like the old ASM stuff?
Like we got that told so many different ways.
It was almost like biblical, or like, you had different accounts of the story.
And so like, wait, which one is the right one?

(48:16):
Like we had like some of the lore changing with some of the retellings of the uncle then
stuff.
Don't get me started how often I've seen Bruce Wayne's parents get shot.
Exactly.
But like at the same time that that gives you a consistent frame of reference.
And it's almost like a home base that kind of like repositions you, like, you can, like,

(48:39):
kind of synthesize, if you will, and move on towards this.
I also think that older comics, now, of course, there wasn't as much stories having been told
as course hindsight's 2020 and they didn't have 30 plus years of storytelling to have to

(48:59):
pack into this.
But even those like little asterisks where it's like sea adventures of Spider-Man and Wolverine
for the full tale, like even those subtle hints towards the other stuff.
Like if you're interested in reading up on that, that's a very easy thing to go find
and read as far as this digital now.

(49:19):
But like, yeah, I swear, like, and you can appreciate this as someone who is bilingual
as well.
When I read a DC comic, there's a certain level of it feels like a foreign language is being
spoken.
Like I can pick up, I can pick up a new Marvel series.

(49:40):
Like I started reading Moon Knight recently.
Nerd Commentation coming.
It's one of the best books I've ever read.
I've just been so busy that I haven't got to read it.
And while Moon Knight is a new character, new-ish character to me, I learned him through video
games, Marvel Ultimate Alliance and stuff like that.
There is at least like a commonality in that world that I understand because I've read Dare

(50:05):
Nebel because I've read Spider-Man.
So me picking up a Moon Knight book is not resetting the wheel, so to speak.
But me, like that flash book just left me like it felt like I had been attacked by a speed
stir when I was done.

(50:30):
And so I think we've got to go back to synthesizing.
And I've read Justice League's books that have done that.
A great job of doing that.
Kind of reintroducing these characters via an intro page.
The Avengers books did this great for a long time, especially Andrew Hickman of like this
person is this, like a one panel kind of reorientation.

(50:58):
And I think we're missing that.
I'm never going to be the person that jumps on the bandwagon.
Why do we have a new number one?
I'm in support of a new number one, especially if it's a new creative team, it's a very clear
delineation.
This is a new direction we're taking.
I'm here for it.
I just think of it as a new volume.

(51:21):
So you're not going to like legacy numbering.
I'm not interested in any of that.
Although I do, although I do like that compromise from Marvel if having the, I do as well.
Or for that volume and the legacy numbering on there, I do like that as a compromise.
So that's, it's a nice compromise, but I'm never going to be like, why do we have a new
another, another new number one?
No, it makes sense from an industry perspective, absolutely.

(51:42):
Yeah.
Because sometimes you get caught in the stodgeness of that and it's really hard to tell someone,
oh, you should start reading Superman 862.
Like what?
But that's what it was.
But start with 862.
I'm not going to do that.
I'm just not.
I don't care if it's a new, like I took me forever to start Nightwing just on, I did not

(52:06):
feel comfortable starting over with Taylor, the Tom Taylor's Nightwing.
It was like issue 68 or 69 something like that.
Like I didn't feel comfortable.
And then I tried to read the rebirth and for the first 20, 30 issues, I nerd commended it,
I enjoyed it.
And then it got really stupid.
And I was just like, okay, maybe I should just jump forward to Taylor, but yeah, so it's,

(52:29):
it's, it's a difficult needle thread.
And you can quote me on this internet.
I'm just going to say it continuity sucks.
I think having 60, 70, 80 years of continuity is incredibly detrimental to the comic book
industry.
It ties too many creators hands.
It makes it difficult to get people invested because, oh, I have to learn, you know, 60 years

(52:53):
of my new shit, understand this character.
If continuity gets in the way, it is, it is not a positive.
So continuity sucks.
The quote, the quotable Dave.
I tend to agree, but with a caveat, like I don't, I don't mind having it as like,
this apocryphal thing, if that makes sense, like yeah, it happened, but we're not going to,

(53:14):
we don't need to harp on it.
We don't need to focus on it.
The thing that drives me nuts and Nick Spencer, who I defended for the longest time.
You remember when I was an expense or defender?
I still, I still ride, I still ride for his Captain America and secret empire.
That was an enjoyable storyline that was still relevant.
I think I said that recently in an episode, so I'll say it again.
I still go up for his Captain America.

(53:36):
However, and and Zeb, who I still defend, will always defend.
And you know, you and I have had our spats, our civil wars on that.
I don't need you to flex and Dan Slap does this.
Oh my God.
I don't need you to flex how much of a Spider-Man historian you are.

(53:58):
I don't need every little Easter egg.
I really don't.
I don't need the big man.
I just need a good story, man.
I really don't.
That's why this tombstone stuff.
And I haven't read comics for a month because Starfield.
But this tombstone stuff with Zeb is like, that's where it's at.
I could give a you know what about some of the other stuff.

(54:21):
Like, I don't care.
Like it doesn't bother me because I don't care.
I don't care who Peter Parker is romantically entangled with and give a given year, like
whatever.
But like, I don't need the big man to come up again.
I don't need these random plot threads from the 80s to show up again.

(54:44):
Like I'm good.
Just tell a good story, bro.
I will, I will, you know what, there's something that you and I can agree on when it comes
to current Spider-Man.
The tombstone stuff has been the best stuff.
Anything related to tombstone has been probably the best stuff that was going on in that
book.
So where I left off with the wedding and that fiasco, that was like, woo.
So I am excited to get back into that.

(55:04):
I know that it's taking a different direction and I'm gonna check it out.
But yeah, tombstone stuff is, tombstone as a whole.
Like there's a spectacular Spider-Man.
Here's a nerd commendation.
I think I've already nerd commended spectacular Spider-Man, but there's a spectacular Spider-Man
run.
I don't know if they put it on digital yet, which is a crime.
Because spectacular Spider-Man for large swaths is better than amazing Spider-Man.

(55:30):
And I've said that many, many times.
There's a run where you get the history between Robbie Robertson and tombstone.
Like that's some of the best Spider-Man comics you will ever read is the Robbie Robertson
and like it kind of informs this whole relationship going forward.
But that's a random rant for another day.

(55:51):
All right.
Let's continue a random rant with your second point.
So way back when I said promotion from screen adaptations.
Our local comic shop did a good job when Age of Ultron came out.
They were handing out Secret Wars number one by Hickman with that sticker that I referenced

(56:15):
in the previous episode of come to our shop if you want more of this.
So like I thought that was a brilliant cross promotion.
I was just like wire more things, more people, more companies, more people not doing this.
Why is Marvel Studios not doing this from their end?
Like this is just one entrepreneur, local entrepreneur trying to drum up sales and being super smart

(56:36):
about it.
Like why is the big corporation whose profits are the bottom line?
Why are they not interested in this?
And so like my point from then was promotion from screen adaptations.
But I'm gonna go step further in here because we've all seen how poorly the actual people

(56:59):
created the stories that are being screen adapted.
We've seen how Chris Claremont has been treated.
We've seen helped me Dave, the guy who created Winter Soldier Ed.
Ed, Ed, what's his name?
Ed Bruebaker.
We saw how Ed Bruebaker was shafted with the MCU and all of that.
And as a Marvel fanboy, when you love something you criticize it, take care of your creators.

(57:24):
And their baby is making you a billion dollars on the screen, take care of them.
And I'm probably carving a roll out for me is like the labor guy, but I don't care.
I'm ready for if need be for comic book artists and whether freelance, this might be more difficult.

(57:46):
The freelance creators, comic artists, comic book writers need to go on strike from the
big two, from whoever, then so be it.
But you need to work that into your contract to take care of your creators.
Because if you take care of those creators, that's going to draw more people to the occupation

(58:10):
because they're going to be well compensated, that just breeds innovation and new storytelling.
And then that's going to make everything much more accessible.
You're going to have more good content to push out to promote.
If you take care of your workers, good stuff follows.
Let me tell you, you know, I can't echo this one enough.

(58:33):
I think happy creators are willing to create more for you.
And if their creations are already making you a billion dollars, imagine what their
next creation could do for you.
I don't quite understand how the people who are making all of this stuff possible, you
know, by writing the comics that, you know, the next billion dollar movie is based on how

(58:53):
they are not taken care of.
It is incredible to me how many comic book creators end up on social media with a post that's
like, hey, I'm having health issues, please, you know, help me raise money from a hospital
for my hospital bills.
Like that is so far out of the realm of what is acceptable at this point.

(59:13):
Like I understand contracts or contracts and the industry was built on contracts that
basically say, this is work for higher, you don't get more, you know, but if you've just made
a billion dollar movie and a, if you just made a billion dollar movie, yeah, that there's
absolutely, it's absolutely unacceptable that you don't take care of these creators in some
way.
There should be some kind of clauses like, hey, if you get, if just gets adapted, makes

(59:35):
a ton of money, you get, this is this percentage of that.
Like that's just just good.
Get that written in there in writing.
Yeah, it should be.
It absolutely should be.
All right, Dave, your third and final then and now.
So I said that they need to make digital a priority those years ago in our second episode.
And let me tell you, I feel like the kind of did.

(59:56):
I think it's fair to say that DC Universe Infinite and Marvel and Limited both have made
pretty big inroads.
We looked at before the episode that is like that, the digital part of the industry was making
like 170 million a year or something like that, which is not bad at all.

(01:00:17):
It's a good start.
And so I'm glad that they have prioritized digital because a lot of the stuff that I said
about accessibility back then about, you know, being able to access hold series and stuff
has become significantly easier thanks to digital.
And driving the cost down has also become a thing thanks to digital.
If you can spend, you know, $120 a year and you have access to, you know, tens of thousands

(01:00:40):
of comic books, the ratio of what you're paying per book to read is actually a lot less than
five, six books in a comic book store, right?
So I think digital has taken care of a lot of those kinds of things that I was already talking
about back then.
Now I think it is time to start innovating in that space.

(01:01:01):
I think it's time to start trying new things, new formats in order to make it as as comfortable
as possible and as easy as possible for people who are not traditional comic book readers
to get involved in these platforms.
I think one of the really interesting experiments that I've seen is what Marvel unlimited with
their infinity comics, right?

(01:01:22):
I was just about to take the words from that.
Yeah, that you just keep scrolling, right?
Like comic book specifically made for the digital landscape and the artists and the artists
that have fully embraced that medium are cooking with it.
Cooking, you're not kidding, cooking, really, really cool stuff and in Marvel's infinity line,

(01:01:42):
right?
So that is the correct attitude to have.
Like now that you're moving on digital, you know, and now that you're putting your back
issues on there, that's all grand.
But now how can you enhance the experience?
How can you capture a generation that is a digital native?

(01:02:03):
How can you get the TikTok crowd?
Like that is really the question here, you know?
If you can capture that crowd, the people who are constantly online, you know, because they
are on social media or they're watching YouTube videos or whatever, if you can capture that
crowd, then you're going to grow the industry like nobody's business.
But for that, you have to start thinking, how do I do that?

(01:02:26):
Because it's not just take what we do in print and put it on there digitally.
That is zero point.
That is the bare minimum, right?
Now you have to start playing around with digital.
Now you have to innovate.
Now what does that look like?
I don't know.
I'm not a great technology innovator.
I use technology, but I'm not exactly creating it over here.
But there are probably things that you can try to do, short bite-sized comics.

(01:02:51):
I don't know that you can read in five minutes, you know?
I don't know, maybe something like that, since we have a generation that is very much into
quick fix situation, right?
But how do you capture that audience?
That's the key, I think, to growing the comic book industry again.
Now that we're digital, how can we make digital work?

(01:03:12):
I don't have any good answers here, just that it is something that much smarter people and
much more knowledgeable people than me need to sit down and really think about.
This infinite line is a first step, the format, so it's very easily read on a screen, on your
phone, on a tablet, great, fantastic.

(01:03:33):
No page turns, just keeps growing.
That's a good first step, but what else can you do to capture those digital natives?
And I think really, I sincerely believe that digital is the future of comic books.
I think everything is going digital as much as I hate to say that as an old foggy, I like
my physical comics.

(01:03:54):
I like my physical media.
I don't even want to talk about how many physical game discs I have still from Xbox, Xbox 360
and Xbox One.
It's one of the reasons I can't go get a series S because I'd lose like 300 games or something
that I can't play because it doesn't have a darn disc drive.
I love physical media, but I also have to acknowledge, for example, on my steam deck, if

(01:04:17):
I want to play something on my steam deck, it's going to be digital.
If you watch something on, you know, that, if you want to watch something movie or television
series wise, more often than not, you're on a streaming service now, it's all digital,
you know?
So I think comics is going to go a similar way.
I don't think that print is going anywhere, but I do think that eventually we're going

(01:04:38):
to reach a tipping point and things are going to shift more and more to the digital space.
And whatever company comes up with an innovative way of delivering comic book content in the
digital space is going to be, I don't know, the Xbox of comics, like with their game pass,
like they were pretty much the first people on the block to really make that work and they're

(01:04:59):
still ahead of the curve, even though Sony is trying to play catch up with their own subscription
services, right?
So I'm waiting DC Marvel, whomever, to innovate in that digital space a little bit and
to come up with a different way to do comics in the digital space.
And I think once they figure that out, boom, it's going to make a huge impact on the

(01:05:19):
industry.
As much as this element of social media makes you and I cringe, especially with your journalism
background with my journalism enthusiasm will go with.
I've always supported journalism.
I was a writer back in middle school myself.

(01:05:39):
I've written freelance articles, embrace the clickbait, embrace the clickbait nature of social
media of TikTok of twix of Facebook even and just launch into that from Marvel's perspective
on their pages on DC's pages on IDW's pages.

(01:06:03):
Be like, remember that time Superman died.
Read about it here.
Or remember that time Scott Summers abandoned his wife and newborn child because his old
flame was reborn.
Read more about that drama here.
Like come embrace the mess.

(01:06:26):
And like just this, so many people with the advent of social media and I said this before
earlier, there is no attention span, whether it is diagnosis, ADHD or not, zero attention
span, negative five attention span.
So embrace that and try and capitalize on that.

(01:06:49):
You want to read the first part of that?
Boom here.
Just don't make it a bunch of hoops and bound like Marvel does a great thing with if you buy
a physical copy, you hit a code for a digital one.
It's still a whole nother streamline that process.
Here's a code that you have to go to this website to enter it and then you have to download

(01:07:09):
this app to actually read it.
Nope.
Create a URL, a link that takes you to that issue and you read it then and now because we
have streamlined so much of our media, like you got to make it quick.
Like we don't have time for that.
Yep, I love that.
I Chris, that brings us to your last change of mind that you've had since our second episode.

(01:07:33):
Well, it's funny because both of our final points were just doubling down on the previous
one or pivoting or tinkering with the previous one.
So back then, I said the youth movement with rewards and incentives.
I probably, I didn't get to that part in re-listening.
I probably talked about like the book it scenario where I would be at Pizza Hut every other

(01:07:55):
week because I had read so many books and I was getting free pizza.
I am now updating that Dave.
He talked about this as educators.
There's been a lot of teacher talk on social media and kind of a revelation that yes, the
pandemic set us back, but there's a whole bunch of deep-seated issues and one of the things

(01:08:18):
is not only kids struggling to read, they have zero desire to read.
We have to drag them to the library to put out an independent reading book once a week.
We have to drag them, our ELA teachers.
We have to bribe them with incentives to read and do anything.

(01:08:42):
So we have to kind of evangelize for reading.
And Dave, you remember back in the day, I don't know if they had this in Germany, but do you
remember the got milk ads?
Yeah, they were all over the place.
Even in Germany, I remember seeing some milk mustache ads.
I think that was mostly an American thing, but for some reason I remember seeing some

(01:09:04):
in my youth.
So I'm not 100% sure if it was import comics that I was looking at at the time or what, but
I remember seeing them.
Okay, so let me tell you, those got milk ads, they got me hook line and sinker.
That was the biggest thing for me growing up as a kid in the 90s.
If you put my favorite athletes on one of those got milk ads in a magazine or in a newspaper

(01:09:24):
or on a commercial, I was there because I emulated those people.
Um, if you, like I got in trouble because like the whole gallon of milk would be gone because
like, oh my god, Chris, what are you doing?
That's your third glass of milk.
They said I had to drink three glasses of milk.
Okay, I've never broken a bone and I always like use that as my calling card or like listen,

(01:09:46):
I used to drink three glasses of milk a day as a kid.
Like I, we could not keep milk in the house because of that effectiveness.
We got to have some kind of evangelism for readings for, for reading for these kids.
And if it's Chris Evans doing a reading tiktok or if it's Robert Downey Jr. doing, um, Jason

(01:10:08):
Mamoa doing like a tiktok for like this is what you should read.
I'm reading this comic and so should you or I'm reading this like these kids do not want
to read.
They want to play video games.
They want to watch YouTube videos.
They do not want to read.
There's even an old Jim Gaffigan joke about like, you know what I enjoyed about the, about
people who are always like, oh, the book is better in the movie.

(01:10:28):
You know what I enjoyed about the movie?
No reading.
And that sentiment has crept into this next generation.
They have no desire to read until we fix that problem.
And if we tack that head on, that's how we save reading as a whole, not just comic books.
Preach it.
Like I, I, I wholeheartedly agree.
I think that reading in particular is, is something even more so than the comic book industry

(01:10:54):
that is in desperate need of saving.
And if you have more readers, then you have more potential readers for the comic book industry.
So it is definitely something that, uh, that works hand in hand.
Uh, yeah, it is super regrettable how, uh, you know, digital native somehow now has come
to mean, you know, non reader.
Um, I find that so, so sad.
And I'm hoping, um, that, that somebody at some point is going to start advocating for, for

(01:11:18):
reading to become more important again, um, and to kind of push it a little bit and, and,
and like you said, have a campaign that says, hey, listen, kids, you know, reading is
cute or whatever you want to do, you know, like, we have to do something to inspire these
kids to, to get reading again.
And so I, I wholeheartedly agree that is, that is point zero, like we just have to make

(01:11:40):
people readers again.
Now, one of the things that I enjoy that are, our school library does, uh, especially when
the book fair comes around is these graphic novels of these popular characters of Kamala
Khan, of Miles Morales, of Diana even I have, and I, I scoop them up one there at the book
for, uh, book fair.
I, I was crushed when I didn't get the new Miles one, but I have those in my classroom,

(01:12:03):
like if kids were wanting to read or, or, or would have you, all right, heck, I read them.
And something that, you know, both companies, um, have, have done really well, and I've
nerd commended some of them is these young adult graphic novels.
It's kind of like a bridge between two worlds.
And so more of that.
Yeah, man, absolutely.
All right, that wraps up our byword big talk.

(01:12:24):
Uh, what did we miss?
What are ways that you would improve?
Come book sales.
The industry as a whole.
What did we miss?
What are we tone deaf on?
What?
Help us out.
What is up on social media at nerd by word across all those platforms.
Um, and when we come back, our second to last installment of nerd nightmare.

(01:12:44):
All right.
So the month of October, my free time, my nerd accommodations have been hijacked by none
other than my lovely co host.
So Dave, it's your turn.
I'm going to turn this over to you.

(01:13:05):
My God, don't I love October because once again, it is time for.
And this week, uh, I once again decided to do something a little out of the ordinary.
Last week, we really captivated Chris with the cabinet, the woods.
And I'm thought this is something in a similar vein where it does something a little unexpected

(01:13:28):
and different, totally.
And I wonder if this might be a movie for him.
So we're talking about the 2019 horror slash thriller movie, ready or not, uh, starring
a Samar weaving, a Adam Brody and a MacDowell, Marco Bryan, the movie.
Here is the official tagline.
Grace couldn't be happier after she married Stamina for dreams at his family's luxurious

(01:13:53):
estate.
There's just one catch.
She must now hide from midnight until dawn while her new in-laws hunt her down with
guns, crossbows and other weapons.
Grace desperately tries to survive the night.
She soon finds a way to turn the tables on her not so lovable new relatives.
Chris, I am going to freely admit, uh, this was one of the best theater experiences that

(01:14:14):
I have had in the last all 10 years or so.
Um, I had a really, really good time with this movie when I saw it with a crowd.
And I'm very interested to hear your take on this one.
Okay.
So I'm going to try my best to keep our family friendly rating that we have.
But I don't think that your clicky pen or the bleep button is going to help here.

(01:14:34):
So I'm going to just try and try and just be a good boy here.
Um, my biggest overall thing is, and I texted this to you, but I'm going to try and clean
up my colorful language.
Alex is one of, hmm, how can I say this?
Oh, Alex is lame.

(01:14:55):
He's the worst.
He's terrible.
He's one of those like, like, like, uh, like, faux sensitive bros that like, oh, I have feelings.
And this is, you change my life.
But then when it comes to like doing actual things, like, actually speak louder than words,
bro, you should have just a lot with this girl.
You didn't even have to marry her.

(01:15:16):
Okay?
Okay.
If marriage is the final thing, it's really cared about her.
Y'all could just go as the, as the preachers would say, go live in sin.
No live in sin, rather than put this girl's life at stake.
And how did that work out for you, Bubba?
Chris, you make it sound like so much fun when you say that.
Go live in sin.
It's, it sounds, it sounds like a blast, which is, which is ironic because, uh, your family

(01:15:40):
sold their soul to the devil.
The devil, the devil, ha satan.
But yeah, like, so like, that was my biggest takeaway.
I was just frustrated and like, um, anytime, no, in all seriousness, anytime Adam Brody shows
up on the screen, I'm a happy man.

(01:16:01):
I forgot how religiously I watch the OC back in high school and how his like, his twitchy,
dorky, do we be energy just vibes with me?
And like, how he's evolved that style over time where like he's, he's kind of like the cool
guy in this movie, which is weird coming in.

(01:16:24):
Like he makes sense in shazam and horribly, criminally underused in those shazam movies,
um, as much as I enjoyed the first one and a two, I should agree, the second one.
Like he's the perfect encapsulation of the older version of that character.
I'm, the kid's name is escaping me, but that's neither here nor there.
But um, Friday.
Friday.

(01:16:44):
Thank you.
Um, but yeah, this was a really enjoyable one.
Um, and just like a really interesting take on like that final girl trope, some of the
humor was a little bit on the nose for me.
Like, like the final line is in laws and I'm just like, okay, but other than that, like

(01:17:05):
it was, it was a really enjoyable one.
The sister just taking out everybody except for the person was pretty funny as like this
come up, this coaxed out degenerate loser and then I, you know what, my, I take that back,
I take back everything I said, my biggest overall take was this was a really interesting kind

(01:17:28):
of social critique satire on the uber wealthy in America.
And like how they kind of sell their souls, um, and to keep it in the family and like to
keep up appearances to keep their status and even amidst controversy, like you have the, the,

(01:17:50):
the daughter with substance abuse issues, they keep that in the family, like the, the parents
are like just apologize for her, like they just don't even hold her accountable.
Um, you have like the, the prodigal son returning, but yeah, this was, this was just a wild,
this was a wild film, wild.

(01:18:13):
Yeah, I found it super, super enjoyable.
I really liked the sense of humor of it.
I didn't, you know, I didn't expect it to be as funny as it ended up being when I watched
it first.
Um, and, uh, Samara, Samara, her every pronounce her name, weaving is, is such a star in this
movie.
I think she just, she just takes this role and just knocks it out of the park.

(01:18:34):
She's so charismatic.
Uh, I had to be reminded of her because she is like, um, spoilers, uh, in the recent, most
recent screen movie, she's like the first victim, so she dies in like the first five minutes
of the movie, but even there are like five minutes in the movie.
She completely commands the screen and I'm like, why is this woman not in everything?
Like she is so good in this movie.

(01:18:56):
I just want to see more of her.
Um, and I really, really enjoy, um, you know, the, the, the, this idea of, of survival in,
in, um, unfamiliar environment and you're not sure who you can trust in all that.
I think that works really well here with a more humorous twist, but there was a movie a
while back, maybe something for a nerd nightmare next year, uh, called your next, I believe.

(01:19:21):
And that one worked in a very similar sort of way.
You know, you have an outsider coming in with a family and there's this whole drama going
on and then people start dying.
Uh, it's a little more straight lace and serious, but also really, really strong movie.
So this like trying to survive against impossible odds kind of thing, the tension that comes
out of that.
That's really, really enjoyable in these kinds of movies and I think it worked to a tee here.

(01:19:44):
It's why you say that about tomorrow weaving and you and I had texted about this a little
bit.
She, she kind of suffers from the success of Marco Robbie because she looks very similar.
She's an Australian born actress as well.
Um, but I, I did and I was looking for a new, a nerd news story, uh, this week and one
of the headlines from the Hollywood reporter as that this new movie that she's a part of

(01:20:07):
has been picked up called asriall and it's about, um, this sounds like a great kind of premise
for a horror movie.
It's set in a world and I'm reading directly here from a Hollywood reporter.
Asriall is set in a world in which no one speaks and centers on a devout female lead community
that hunts down a young woman, the self title character played by weaving who is escaped

(01:20:28):
her imprisonment recaptured by its ruthless leaders.
Asriall is to be sacrificed to pacify an agent evil.
Oh, this sounds familiar.
That resides deep within the surrounding wilderness, but she will stop at nothing to ensure
on freedom and survival.
So this might be ready or not under another name and different kind of filter, if you will,
but, you know, that sounds interesting all the same.

(01:20:49):
Yeah, I'm, I'm ready for it.
I just, I just want to see her in something again because even like that, that short taste
of her acting in, uh, in, in the most recent screen movie, now it's like, no, why is she
not in more stuff?
She is so charismatic and she does, you know, horror movie roles in particular so well.
She should be all over the place at this point.
I think the, I think the image of like her in some cool orange converse and like ripping

(01:21:15):
up her wedding dress, like that whole thing, we should not lose that.
Like this is her wedding night.
Like she's trying to do the, the standard, like consummating the marriage thing and then
the creepy Aunt Helene is just like peeping out.
And that's a fascinating thing too.
I have like how Helene switched it up because she was, you know, someone who had to live through

(01:21:38):
that and then her to be the book end and like leading the charge on this.
She was like, no, y'all killed my husband.
No, it's time to kill her.
But like, yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was really wild.
But like that image of her in her well-worn converse and having to rip up her dress and
stuff, that was, that was pretty cool.
Yeah, yeah, I really, really like this, not as earth shatteringly innovative as the cabin

(01:22:03):
in the woods, but I don't know.
No, nothing, that's going to be a high watermark and unfortunately that movie did not perform
as well for whatever reason.
There's a whole bunch of stuff behind the scenes, but like that's, that's, that's going
to be the standard for me moving forward.
Well, I am so glad I was able to introduce you to that one.
All right, that wraps up another episode of Nerd By Word.

(01:22:26):
I've got one more nightmare to suffer through next week before we get back to Nerd Commentations.
But if you like what you heard today, we thank you so much for supporting us and you can
find us on whatever your favorite podcasting platform is, whether that's Apple, Spotify,
or Nerd By Word.com.
And of course, you can find us on social media because we would like to know what you think

(01:22:48):
of what you heard.
We have a lot of ideas on twigs, Instagram and pretty much wherever there was a social
media platform, at least one of us is there.
You can find us at Nerd By Word or individually at that Nerd Dave and at that Nerd Chris.
The Nerd By Word is written and produced by Chris and Dave, two nerds with a love of all

(01:23:09):
things, pop culture.
The podcast features music by Al Yimenez with additional drops composed by Jo Bianni.
Our show art is by Ashery Design.
It's Nerd By Word.com and wherever podcasts are available.
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