Episode 169 - The MCU is Forced to Change its Ways

This week, Kris and Dave break down the big news regarding the MCU's upcoming Daredevil show and what it means for the wider MCU. Plus, is physical media dying out? Do the new Ultimate Marvel titles look good? Will Kris survive the final nerd nightmare?

Nerd News

Best Buy announces its dropping physical media

Marvel announces first wave of new Ultimate titles

Byword Big Talk

Daredevil and the MCU fallout

Nerd Nightmare

Drag Me to Hell (2009)

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The MCU's TV division is hitting the reset button.

(00:08):
What does that mean for the future of the Marvel Cinematic Universe on a small screen?
This week on the Byword, we dive into that topic.
The Byword starts now.
[Music]

(00:42):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode 169 of the Nerd Byword Podcast.
This week in our big talk we'll be talking about the reset of Marvel's Daredevil born
again television series and what that means for the larger MCU.
But first as always it's time for...
[Music]

(01:09):
Oh I know where this new story is going Chris and I do not like it one bit.
I chose it just for you because we're taking what would have been my new story for our
big talk we're kind of more big into that.
So you let me color outside the lines with the big talk.
So I chose this new story just for you as a return of that favor.

(01:32):
Yeah so I guess upsetting trends over the past week or so in the news first came when Best By
revealed that they are out of the physical media business for good in 2024.
They will no longer sell DVDs, blu-brays, what have you.
Then I also saw another article that said that Walmart like Target did this past year

(01:57):
will no longer sell physical copies of video games.
So not a whole lot to expound upon on these new stories but it looks like physical media
is going the way of the dodo to borrow one of your phrases.
I'm gonna be honest with you Dave I was surprised that Best By was still in business because
we no longer have one in our area.

(02:20):
So that was...
I was surprised to see Best By in the news.
I think there's several issues at play.
I think being moved towards digital which is the path that I've taken I saw the writing
on the wall several years ago.
But then also the Amazon of it all.
I think Amazon has put a lot of stores and competitors out to pasture especially in the

(02:44):
advent of the pandemic and everyone being under quarantine.
It's hard out there.
Yeah so the Amazon of it all is certainly a factor but I think to move towards digital
is probably had a much more significant impact on the sales of physical media.
And to a certain extent the video game one understand a lot more than Lou Ray DVD.

(03:09):
The problem with video games and physical media these days is that what you're getting
on the physical media is rarely the actual finished game.
Regrettably the old Nintendo adash that a bad game if you don't give it enough time is going
to be bad forever doesn't apply anymore.

(03:31):
Now we have all these day one patch and stuff.
So games really don't get polished very well before they get put on physical media.
Obviously when you buy a game physical you better expect a day one patch or significant
updates throughout the life of the game for quite a while.
So I understand certainly that.

(03:53):
You know I'm going to be completely honest with you.
Maybe I'm just an old guy at this point but when it comes to DVDs you are.
You are.
Thank you thank you.
And movies in general TV shows.
I'm sorry but I don't trust streaming.
And I think we have certainly learned that lesson with the whole HBO max max debacle.

(04:17):
You know when the acquisition there from you know discovery happened and they started
just like on ceremony, dropping stuff from their streaming service.
A subscription to a streaming service is not a guarantee in any way shape or form that
you're going to have access to any given piece of media.
So if it is something that you really love and appreciate and want to be able to
re-consume at a later point, I don't think there are any guarantees here that you're going

(04:41):
to be able to do that unless you own the physical media.
Now some people will say well you know instead of sort of streaming subscriptions you can
also buy digital and that is all fine and then the two until you read the fine print and
you realize that you are not purchasing you know a copy of the movie in perpetuity for
you to use but rather a license to only digitally and that license can in fact be revoked

(05:07):
at any time.
So technically you can you know purchase a nice big collection of movies on Amazon for example
digital movies and within the license agreement Amazon at any point can say yep no not
any more and revoke that license agreement.
So if it is a piece of media that is important to you and that is something that you want to
re-consume or share with your children or grandchildren at one point, physical media is

(05:29):
regrettably the only real guarantee that you will have some kind of access to that.
And you know we've seen time and time again and stuff coming and going from streaming services.
I know for example there was a big hoopla just recently in the news especially given Bruce
Willisus declining health that his one of his first big breakout roles in the TV show Moon

(05:52):
lighting is actually going to be streaming for the first time ever.
Now you know you got to imagine if you've you know bought this on physical media at some
point you have it but if you know you were waiting for something like that to stream you
know good luck with that because it wasn't streaming this entire time and this will be the first
time that will actually be on a streaming service.

(06:12):
So I'm I understand the changing economics of physical media especially with online sales
of stuff like you know Amazon and the like but I think as a as consumers we have become
way too trusting that it is somehow in the best interest of these companies to keep this

(06:34):
kind of stuff available under streaming service in perpetuity.
And we're still talking about service space and the like that also cost money and you better
believe if if something declines in streaming numbers that a Netflix and Amazon prime and
a max a paramount plus these services will have no compunction of saying this is a waste

(06:54):
of service space we're just going to go ahead and click delete that and not have that available
on a streaming service anymore.
I would lose my marbles if I didn't have my far escape DVDs like that is that is one of the
seminal science fiction moments in my life and not being able to have that available would

(07:15):
break my heart.
I'll also say that I have about half of Star Trek deep space nine on DVD those collections
were so expensive ridiculously expensive that I couldn't even finish the collection yet.
Right now Star Trek is streaming in a very nice you know situation but therefore while it
was not and being able to watch deep space nine again was basically impossible and again I

(07:37):
will say I do not doubt for a second that that can go away again.
So I am still a bit of a die hard physical media guy because I just simply do not trust
the digital distribution model at this time and to a lesser extent that applies to games
too.

(07:57):
Half now we heard news stories of games being de listed on steam or vanishing from the Xbox
digital store only to return later or being you know having having their soundtrack patched
out because the license agreement for certain music expired.
You know these are pretty radical situations I think for for media access and there is

(08:18):
something reassuring as an old geezer that I am that you like to call me now apparently
that I can grab any number of my my SNES cartridges and pop them in and the game is there and
functional you know so yeah I understand the economics of it I do not trust the digital
distribution model in the long term to preserve media I just don't think preservation is

(08:44):
necessarily in the interest of these companies and we are going to lose access I think our
generation in particular and the generation coming up behind us they're going to learn
the hard way that there are things that they really enjoyed watching in their youth and by
the time they're old and gray like me they will not be able to access it anymore because
it's not been released to physical media and the streaming service has dropped it because

(09:05):
not enough people were watching it and I think that is going to be a travesty.
Yeah a couple of things I think I'm a bit of an outlier in that I don't really rewatch
things like I once I see something I don't really have an interest even some of my favorite
things I don't typically rewatch things so I'm a bit of an oddball in that so wanting to revisit

(09:31):
something so it was never a big I a big deal for me to have a physical media collection because
I wasn't typically hard set on rewatching something but I understand you know other people's
viewpoints and opinions of course the other thing that I want to this is the same group of

(09:52):
companies and media producers that have now walked away from sag after negotiations so the
hubris if you will of these companies is going to come back to bithem if they're not careful.
I'm not advocating for piracy but this is the age of the internet so if you want to you know

(10:17):
go too far in one direction and try to limit the things keep ramping up your prices on streaming
services because you refuse to negotiate in good faith with your actors you better be careful

(10:37):
that's all I'm going to say I'm not advocating for piracy but the this this generation coming up
is really creative I'll tell you that you know there was a I'm going to go a weird direction here
but there was a UK show that ended up being really really loosely adapted in the United States

(10:58):
on the USA network back in the whole like character age of like psych and all that and
shows called touching evil the UK shows quite good but the American shows a very different beast
the show lasted for one season ran in 2004 and had some really really fantastic
fantastic cast members on there Jeffrey Donovan let the let the show and obviously he came back later

(11:24):
with burn notice on the USA network which was a huge success very far me go was on there
Bradley Cooper was on there like there were some really really interesting cast members
and the show was was pretty dark for the USA network but very very compelling and so it didn't last
past one season but I remember enjoying the show great deal and many years later I tried to revisit it

(11:46):
and it was not streaming anywhere and had never been released to physical media
and literally the only way that you were able to try to revisit this show at the time
was exactly that was piracy because some people had you know recorded it off a TV when it aired and then
you know dump those files on the internet and that was literally the only way that you could revisit that
show and I think that that is going to you know with physical media on the way out I think that

(12:11):
is going to become a problem they are going to be underrated under appreciated shows that fly
under the radar that you want to be able to revisit and you will not be able to revisit them
and and that that that's a shame that's what it is all right let's go from a stinker of a new
story so one I'm pretty excited about Dave I have high hopes my friend and that is saying something

(12:33):
considering that some of the worst stories I've ever read came from the Marvel Ultimate Lies
but yet it's also some of the best ones yeah also some of the best ones it's a really it's a
two-inch sword so we have as of recording right now we had New York Comic Con going on
there's been a whole bunch of new stories coming out of that one of the big new stories coming

(12:55):
from Marvel is of course that we're heading towards the relaunch of the ultimate line at Marvel
which originally launched in like early in the early 2000s like 2000 even I think for 2001
with ultimate Spider-Man by Brian Michael Bendis that became sort of a seminal you know retelling
of Spider-Man's younger years and then you know we had all sorts of spin offs out of that and it

(13:17):
became its own cohesive universe in line until certain individuals named Jeff Loeb
kind of ran it into the ground with some really questionable story ideas sales declined and ultimately
the line ended and now we're looking at bringing the line back and it's been interesting because
you know one we've had a ultimate invasion a mini series right now which honestly you know

(13:41):
didn't really do a whole lot for me it was okay but it didn't really seem to be leading
to a new ultimate universe some very very curious where this is going story-wise but
at New York Comic Con we got several interesting announcements coming out of this and a press release
so let's go ahead and check that out the invasion is over and the ultimate universe is assembling

(14:03):
at Marvel's next big thing pan let New York Comic Con fans witness the birth of the all new
ultimate universe and then of course high-pip-pip-pip CB Sebalski and writer Jonathan Hickman laid out
Hickman's ultimate vision for a revolutionary new era of Marvel Comics including announcements for
ultimate Spider-Man ultimate Black Panther and ultimate X-Men all launching early next year these

(14:27):
represent the initial saga set in an all new ultimate realm making the perfect place for new fans
and long-term comic readers to jump in at ground level for the next big chapter of Marvel Comics
storytelling fans could get everything they need to know in next month's ultimate universe number one
where Hickman and artist Stefano Casselli team up to unleash the full impact of this new age

(14:48):
Jonathan Hickman and Brian Hitch's ultimate invasion limited series saw the rise of a new pantheon
of heroes now see them band together in the special foundational one shot packed with previews
inside of what's to come and then there was a trailer and then we have solicitations for three
series the first ultimate Spider-Man revolutionary writer Jonathan Hickman and acclaimed artist Marco

(15:12):
Chateau bring you a bolt new take on Spider-Man with the debut title of the new line of ultimate comics
after the events of ultimate invasion the world needs a hero who will rise up to take on that
responsibility prepare to be entangled in a web of mystery and excitement as the all new ultimate
Spider-Man comic redefines the wall crawler for the 21st century teasing the series Hickman said

(15:33):
ultimate Spider-Man is a book I never thought I'd be writing it's a bit of a Peter B Parker situation
we're definitely have to talk about that the next one that was announced is ultimate Black Panther
in the wake of ultimate invasion conchou and ra the forces known together as moonnight are seeking
to expand their brutal control of the continent of africa in response the lone bulwark against them

(15:55):
the isolated nation of Wakanda will send forth its champion its king the black panther from the
creative minds of Brian Hill and Stefano Casselli comes a bolt new take on the world of black panther and
Wakanda and then we have ultimate X-Men which may be the book specifically written for you Chris
visionary creator peach mimoco reinvents mutant kind for the ultimate age in Japan when a young student

(16:19):
named hisako iichiki develops armor powers she discovers she's a mutant and she's not the only one
meet a new generation of mutants filled with original and familiar X-Men characters together they learn
what it means to be mutant in the ultimate universe as they explore their emerging powers and
the startling ways they connect to folklore legend and magic um yeah so these are coming uh in

(16:44):
early uh 2024 ultimate spider-man is going to be the first of these solicited to release on
January 10th ultimate black panther supposed to come on february 7th and finally ultimate X-Men number
one on march 6th chris i'm very interested in your reactions to these uh and and the rebirth of the

(17:06):
ultimate universe if you will i'm excited about all of these honestly i mean ultimate spider-man we
talked at length over 169 episodes about how much we love ultimate spider-man and as i said before
we this was a new story a couple episodes ago when this was first kind of revealed someone with

(17:27):
like the grandiose scope of things with most of his writing like hickman writing a street level
character is really really fascinating to me um ultimate black panther i did not read the original
ultimate black panther but i like brainhills work um and then you know you get the Egyptology of it all
you know with uh konshu and raw i'm i'm diving back into um jed mccays moon night which is

(17:54):
an absolutely fantastic book i'm definitely going to nerd-comend it when i get more caught up and have more
context to speak about it but impeccable impeccable book so i'm excited to see kind of the confluence of
things there um and then ultimate x-men you absolutely nailed it i love peach romoko's work some of the
most gorgeous art that happens in comics right now um and then she's also done some like demon days

(18:19):
i believe it's demon day stuff that she's written in like like these alternate universe books
the else worlds if you will and those have been fantastic so getting her to do the cover art
interiors and the writing uh responsibilities is just incredible and those books are super fun i'm
reading white uh Walt Simonson's Thor and just having like one creator just it's it's their baby

(18:46):
and just letting them do that is such a such a cool thing for me and then also like the the tease we
got for ultimate universe is fascinating i love i love love love hickman's ultimate Thor uh one of
one of the really underappreciated runs in the ultimate universe but then like you see the lineup of
Iron Man cap lady sif it looks like and dr doom like i love the way Jonathan hickman writes dr doom

(19:12):
it's one of my favorite characterizations of any comics character so i'm so here for this man
yeah i'm i'm i'm cautiously optimistic it is it's definitely delivering some things that i find
interesting i guess you could say uh i think my first reaction in just looking at like the cover

(19:33):
art of things is i'm not a huge fan of the ultimate black pan for design i think it's a little too
busy i think that i've seen that reaction as well you're not the first person to say that
yeah i think i think that's who the sort of perfection in all other ways i think black panther
has such a great look and adding all of those metal spikes and stuff too it seems just a little

(19:55):
i don't know um it's it's that that part is not singing to me but i have some faith actually in in
the writing because there's some interesting stuff being said um uh the writer of ultimate black panther
brine hill said my influences range from the history of black panther comics to ryan kughler's
incredible it worked with the recent films to frank herberts world building capacity of dune now if

(20:19):
you do that i knew that was gonna catch you and now if you're willing to say world building in the
style of dune i am definitely gonna have to stick my nose into that because especially that first
dune book is just such a special special science fiction novel so if you if you are willing to invoke
dune you know you you you are setting some pretty high expectations some very interesting to see

(20:41):
if if design doesn't sing for me at the very least a world building might um ultimate x-men you know
you know my x-men uh relationship is kind of blase which means that i'm very very open to a new take
like this you know um i know i remember reading a little bit of ultimate x-men the first time around

(21:02):
and and feeling very much that it was too similar in in many ways to to the main line x-men you know
at the time it didn't really feel like sort of a a bold you know new direction or something so having
a singular creator with a singular vision and bringing sort of their own their own thing to it
is is probably something i am going to be significantly more open to than many other you know people

(21:29):
who are super diehard x-men fans perhaps because you know there are sacred cows that people don't want
to be changed or touched and i have no sacred cows when it comes to the x-men um momoko said uh in
in the press release i'm very careful in delivering the unique x-men mutant elements while still
being true to my vision and voice i'm also very proud and surprised that i was given enough freedom

(21:51):
to create a brand new x-men character it might not be the normal portrayal of a superhero um so i
i really like that i think you know giving giving momoko all this freedom to really riff i think that
that alone is going to fascinate me the the one that i'm clearly the most hyped about is ultimate

(22:12):
spider-man i have high hopes for this one um you know bringing back an ultimate spider-man title
you know that they they need to have the ducks in the row you know like i i don't think that marvel is
now at the point of re-humors where they're going to launch a crappy ultimate spider-man title i mean
ultimate spider-man the first time around was you know such a influential book such a trend setting book

(22:34):
really launched the entire ultimate line and then of course introduced miles marialis which is
become multi-media star character now i don't think that they're going to go into this half-baked
and i really i don't think they would let i don't think they would have someone like hickman on it to do
a poor something half-baked yeah and what i find most interesting is that he says it's a bit of a peter

(22:58):
b parker situation and if if that means we're getting sort of an an older you know pretending towards
middle-aged kind hero um i think that's really interesting did i see something i i thought i saw the words
middle-aged somewhere in one of these there was a there was a there's a quote floating around it's not

(23:19):
from this press release of hickman saying that it is a more middle-aged take on that where exactly
that quote is from i don't know but i keep seeing it pop up of all over social media so i i have not
been able to verify the source on that um but you know saying it's a bit of a peter b parker
situation like is it peter parker is it another character i think the thing that i find really

(23:41):
interesting here is if you go back to ultimate invasion there is a scene at the end of the first issue
where the maker prevents the spider from biting peter parker right he literally prevents
spider-man from being a thing in this universe that he's trying to mold and so and why may
yeah well why wouldn't you because we know that you know at his best peter parker is you know the most

(24:07):
moral uh the most ethical of super heroes you know the one that will not go you know go along to get
along you know and there's a lot of in ultimate invasion there's a lot of going along to get in the
long kind of stuff and and and and peter parker at his best at least does not do that um and so
i think there's a chance that what they're if there if this is still going to be a version of

(24:31):
peter parker that we're getting then what they might be riffing off of here is that he does not get
bitten until he's in his middle age you know that he actually you know this was prevent it and then he
actually is a new superhero but he's not a teenage superhero that's new to the job he's a
middle-aged superhero that's new to the job and all of the fun along with that that is a really
interesting take if that's what they're going with and i might be really off base and they're going

(24:55):
to do something completely different than it's not even peter parker or whatever right but
i think that's that's a really cool idea um i would like i would like to see that and i think peter b parker
is actually to me at least one of the better adaptations of of peter parker that we've seen i really

(25:16):
like that character in the spiderverse movies i think he he's a a natural evolution of peter parker
in a lot of ways that we don't generally get to see in the comics and it's not just about like he
you know he's married and he has a kid but he's he's at a different stage of his life and and i think
when you have heroes that aren't just all teenagers under early 20s you're opening up very different

(25:40):
story possibilities and story possibilities that oftentimes go un-mind you know like how often do we
have to sit here and just admit that will never have a Superman or Batman in their 40s probably you
know like it's just not gonna happen they they're kind of stuck perpetually in like their their
early to mid 30s at most and and it's there there is there is more there to explore you know

(26:04):
one of the reasons i always you know appreciated um the justice society book over a dc is because you
have that older generation of heroes mentoring the younger ones and that does have a different vibe
when you have heroes that are middle age or beyond so i have i have really high hopes for this i hope
i hope that it is as good as it appears to be on the surface i mean we don't know a lot yet

(26:29):
but i think ultimate spider-man is the one that i'm probably most excited for right now i think it
is the best case scenario besides bringing actual ultimate peter parker from the first run back
is if they do something like this it is gonna feel different and unique and has a fresh voice and i
would love to see that what i'm optimistic about is the ultimate line was always ambitious and it

(26:56):
took big swings for all its warts it took big swings and i think um with um as troubling as x-men
comics are for example right now with the fall of krakow and the impending reset to the quote unquote

(27:19):
status quo and i swear to god we're going back to that leap in school but whatever so now i at
least have this escapism of the ultimate universe and my hope is they will be just as ambitious
as they were 20 years ago but with 20 years of hindsight baked in

(27:40):
and 20 years of growth and awareness so we don't get the problematic things that we got from
mark miller jefflo whoever you want to say so like i'm excited about that simply because like main
stream 616 comics are a snake eating its own tail like this it is what it is at this point

(28:07):
yeah yeah so and you know it's fair to say that the original ultimate line had a big influence on
mainline 616 so if if this is you know innovative and successful then there could be a healthy dose of
backwashing again going on um and maybe maybe mainline peter parker will get to grow up a little bit

(28:28):
if this if this middle age take is successful over the ultimate line we still have you know who in
editorial and we've said this name a couple times and that is the limit that i would like to say that
man's name but he's still in charge so don't hold your breath before we leave this day i know we

(28:48):
didn't make a full story out of dc's work but i need your reaction to cowboy Clark uh yeah it makes me
feel feelings man that is what i that is what i can decide i didn't know how to react to that one i
know that there's a i think cowboy Clark is a thirst trap for social media at this point um but i

(29:09):
have to say yeah i'm excited man i think just all of this weird stuff that they're doing at dc right now
i i tell you one of the things that i've really appreciate about dc lately is that they do
they do take some interesting swings um and and there is a real i think there's a real energy over dc
right now that i'm not really feeling from the marvel titles um they're they're doing a pirate

(29:32):
storyline right now with nightwing nightwing as a pirate basically and i'm totally here for it
there's just really cool stuff coming out over there um and you know we talked a little bit but like
when we're talking about new number ones how the flashbook maybe it doesn't necessarily click with us
but who would have ever thought that they would try to do cosmic horror basically with us with a
superhero story that i don't like i just wish i understood what was going on more like that part

(29:56):
yeah so i think there's i think there's some really cool stuff going on over dc right now and just
seeing like superman as a cowboy like i just want to pick that up i just want to know what's going on
dude man jason erin though an action comics that kind of blows me yes i yes that was the other one
yeah yeah i'm actually really excited for that i love to store run so i'm i hope that's i hope

(30:19):
it's more like a store run less like is a and less the spenders run yeah here that a lot um but man
superman is firing in all cylinders right now he really would have to pardon my friend but he'd
really have to shit the bit to ruin that right now because it's the superman line is just really
working with a couple of really weird exceptions i think i just saw something like superman

(30:42):
announcement this morning super suns or something like that i don't know i'm just a rip man i'm
gonna have to look i am a little behind on looking at all the announcements all right folks stay
you have but that was a packed nerd news let's go ahead and take a break and when we come back we're
going to be talking about the mcu television overhaul that is coming uh beginning with daredevil

(31:05):
born again stick around all right ladies and general people we are back with this weeks
and oh boy oh boy is their news coming out of the mcu camp that we want to spend a little bit of

(31:34):
time talking about the hollywood reporter reported on october 11th that daredevil the um mcu show
coming uh here soon that had been filming for a little while when the writer and then actor strike
hit um is actually hitting the reset button and that marvel intends to overhaul its entire tv

(31:55):
business based on the fact that what they've seen so far filmed from the new daredevil show does not
seem to work there's a lot of stuff that we need to delve into here a lot of moving parts um
first let's go ahead and start with simply with this question Chris what is your initial reaction just
to hearing that they're basically going back to the drawing board with daredevil born again that

(32:19):
they've gotten rid of their writing staff that they've gotten rid of the rest of the directors for
the rest of the season that they're actively shopping around for new creative talent to basically
come in and write the ship so to speak i think it's a bold move to i think for a lot of

(32:40):
for a lot of this series adaptation that began with one division a few years ago
i think a lot of what the mcu and marvel studios was doing was just relying on
past success and past cultural influence um and so i think it's it's a long overdue thing to kind

(33:02):
of retool and and kind of adapt but at the same time like the mcu as it stands is revolutionary
we've never seen connected universes we had never seen connected universes on this grand
of a scale then what we got into that starting in 2008 like no one had ever done it to that extent

(33:26):
um and so when it time came to migrate towards a series i think and there were a lot of growing
pings with the initial mcu and so like i'm interested by so many different things and i've written a
lot of stuff in our shared document is spitballing but i was i'm surprised that i think they said i think

(33:51):
the article said about 50% had been filmed of an 18 episode season and they're just scrapping all of it
they they they will use some of that footage um but it's just fascinating i i was i i'm going to be
real with you like i was deeply annoyed by the mcu haters who just continued to hate watch things

(34:11):
and they're like dancing on the grave of the mcu like this is going to be the start of this downfall
which i i don't think it is um but it's it's it's i'm just really fascinated that they're
willing to make this bold of a move yeah my reaction to that is exactly that too and i think
unlike some people who are as you said dancing on the on the grave of the mcu already i think

(34:38):
it is is not just a bold move but an incredibly smart move from what we've been hearing in
news coverage of you know what's going on with mcu specifically on the um let's say on the television
side of things again and again and again what we keep hearing is that they just keep going

(35:00):
in film whatever they're working on and then they try to fix any problems that they have
in post production in post yes in post right and that is like the crappiest way to try to fix
something when you know it's not working so for them to say look we got half of a season here and
this crap isn't working we have to retool before they get the post production you know when they

(35:24):
can still when they can fix it on the riding level that's smart you want to know what's fascinating
and this might be why they've done this now because sag after is still on strike but the wga is
back to work so they might be capitalizing on this period of time where the studios are refusing

(35:45):
to negotiate or walking away from the gochitay will what have you so they might be taking this time
to retool the riding aspects so they can kind of hit the ground running when the actors come back
to work if and when they finally reach a negotiation agreement i think that is exactly what's going

(36:05):
on here and it is incredibly smart because you need to punt back to the riders right i think if
something's not working the the the origin point of the story is where you need to start you know
is the riding working um and i know we're not you know given toxic behavior and everything that

(36:26):
you know joss weedness not somebody we like to talk about too much these days but one of the things
to remember about that guy is that he got his his real major success in the business as a script doctor
right and so script doctoring is a fascinating thing you know a princess leia herself carried
featured at script doctoring and what they basically would do is they would say here's the major
action beats you can't change those here are the stunts that were getting ready for you can change

(36:50):
that here's the basic production design you can't change that but within that what can you do to
fix this you know and and oftentimes one of the first places they go is to dialogue or
rearranging scenes right you're still using everything that's on the drawing board which is why i think
it's very possible something like their devil born again is going to use very similar action
beats right but it's going to change some of the stuff around uh the action beats and that way

(37:14):
they're not you know having to redo all that stunt work for example um but i think that's where
you need to punt back to right i mean the smartest projects when they're trying to make a fix they
start with a script doctor they bring somebody in to say hey how can you can you punch up
this dialogue can you make sure it's internally consistent can you make sure the logic works from
scene to scene can you make sure there's no major plot holes you know that's what we're looking at

(37:38):
here um and so at the very least that is something that they need to do right and so fixing something in
post is such a such a crappy way to try to make something work when you just need to punt back to
the right in first of all and make sure that everything is clicking there yeah so my first question
I think is Dave why do you think marvel and i know that you're the emcee of the episode but we're

(38:03):
going to pull you fast and lose i think up you know where this is basically an extended nurse
nerd news story anyway um why do you think marvel felt like they didn't need to adapt more to fit a
series model was that more you know where marvel first of all i marvel has lots of hubris i think
we need to fully admit that um there was there was a story i read a couple of days ago that

(38:27):
basically said that everybody everybody at marvel uh you know was basically shocked that uh
antman and the was quanta mania wasn't this huge yes i read that screen right and i'm like
it was similar it was similar had to dc felt about batman versus superman yes and so you know when
you when you look at antmanivers at man and man and the was quanta mania you know we we talked about

(38:50):
this movie we analyzed it in into a great extent and i kept coming back in that episode to the
same thing over and over again which was wasted potential that the emotional beats weren't always you
know holding true that the conclusion was too pat you know that that they didn't really take their time
that it felt rushed in places and so they think they have a banger on their hands i don't think they

(39:13):
always on on an executive level necessarily question whether what they're doing is working or not
as long as the money keeps flowing it must be working um surprise surprise surprise for executives to
feel that well yeah and i think there is to a certain extent um you know there has been sort of momentum
based income like as of the MCU in that people generally like the MCU and so if there's a new product

(39:38):
people will check it out so although there's been qualitatively reviews and fans there's been more
discontent in you know recently with the product there is still enough momentum behind the franchise
to to rake money in um and i think the reason that daredevil is to place were that changed is because

(39:59):
of the incredibly high expectations people are placing on this project on the back of the netflix
series the netflix series for all of its problems as well and i mean it was not perfect it was really
strong but it wasn't perfect um it's very very popular is it's beloved and and so them knowing that
they have to follow this up they even brought the same actor back to play daredevil that brought the

(40:20):
same kingpin back they understand a thing to an extent that if they don't rise to the moment here
that this could be the place where the momentum breaks you know you you you know part of my french but
don't piss off the netflix daredevil fans basically this this is a hallmark of quality marvel product
and if you make these fans mad you're gonna lose a chunk of your audience i think and so that's i think

(40:44):
that's why the book stopped there um but as far as like adapting the fit of series model um i think
we have to be really honest there i don't think there is a series model right now that was my
that thing yes yeah i i think basically that what has happened is that streaming services have
tremendously altered how we how we view serialized storytelling and i don't think necessarily for the

(41:10):
better um i don't mind the idea of necessarily of shorter seasons for example producing 2224
episodes of a show every year can be difficult i get all that but i think the way the storytelling
ascended since the age of streaming is that it is not serialized storytelling it is just a very long

(41:32):
movie where they um it's just kind of like have cutoff points in between right but you could basically
take something like a soka for example for as much as you and i both enjoyed that and maybe one of
these days we'll get to talk about it on here um get your get your get your stuff together studios so
we can discuss this um basically if you would take out the the openings the credits the the 20 minutes

(41:58):
of of logos and you would just basically take the base story and cut it together you would have a
really long four hour movie right but it's not it's not serialized storytelling i think the same
thing holds true for something like stranger things on over on Netflix right it is it is not serialization
in that each episode is a complete hole right um or that each episode tells a story but contributes

(42:23):
to a larger arc as we've seen in the past with with television series what we have is basically really
long movies that they chop up in the bite-sized chunks and i don't i don't necessarily like that i
as an approach to serialized storytelling not as the standard for sure i think you know doing it
here and there everyone's novelist is interesting right i think that's why one division was so popular

(42:47):
one division was very serialized it was baked into the premise that every episode was gonna
represent a different era in um sitcom history right and so there is a degree of serialization there
and then there's the through line of the overarching story it felt more like a tv show whereas most

(43:09):
of the things that the that's how i feel about lokey that's how i feel about lokey and i think that's
why it's successful yeah yeah um and so most of the stuff that the the MCU has been producing for Disney
plus are just basically over long movies chopped into smaller pieces um and and i think that is not
a good model for for television and i'll tell you why i i think one of the things

(43:35):
that you got when you had a television series that ran for let's say 2022 24 episodes what have you
is you oftentimes had arcs right but you also had a lot of standalone episodes and when you are left
with a group of characters in these standalone tales that have a sense of completion

(43:55):
you get to know the characters on a very very different level right i think a lot of these shows
that are basically over long movies are nothing but plot plot plot plot plot plot plot and there is
not enough character moments there for you to learn about the characters grow with the characters grow
to care about the characters and i think that's what sort of maintains a a television show over the long

(44:17):
term you know if you look at something like uh small bill if you look at something like supernatural right
there was a degree of serialization there was a degree of overarching themes um but i think the thing
that kept people coming back was less the story and always more so the characters and they're left
for these characters and i don't think there are any characters in in the MCU necessarily that have

(44:43):
been introduced on television that you could say i love this character and i just want to i want to see
an episode of them just hanging out you know so i want to see monocarambo monocarambo monocarambo
monocarambo is really an interesting character that was done very dirty though by one division i don't
think she's got enough out of that show either i think the closest thing we actually get to that is

(45:04):
miss marvel i think kamala kahn is an actually sort of character that you want to spend more time
with and her family dynamic is really interesting i could see of all the things damn cus put out i could
see her and her setup work best as an actual traditional television show with you know an
overarching plot but individual standalone stories mixed in like that that is the one that feels the

(45:26):
most like it would be a regular tv show i think i think the i think it when disney plus marvel
or star wars when they do it best it feels like a comic and miss marvel felt like a comic
that felt like a comic uh loke feels like a comic for all its silliness one division felt like a comic book
you know and there are others that i've enjoyed but they just they just don't feel like a good fit

(45:51):
yeah you know it's it's weird man because i think just i think that the base setup that they've
been running with us not been very good this article that we were looking at from hollywood reporter
also said they never had showrunners or series bible they never made they never made a pilot
to kind of to kind of test it out you know pilots are so important not just because they're the

(46:13):
origin point the first episode basically that people watch pilots are much more important because
they're proof of concept right you you film this thing at a much lower cost and trying to do a whole
show you sit down you watch this one episode when it's finished and you're like it works or you say
it doesn't work or you say it works a little bit but this actors miss cast maybe we need to trim this

(46:34):
role we need to refill this part you know star trek for example very famously that we can start
to show how it's going to say that had its pilot and the executive said it doesn't work but there's
enough here that we think could work retool and that's where we get you know Kirk sparkler spark
what call from right is that there's a there's a trivia night stumper for you captain Kirk was not on

(46:57):
the pilot for the series the star trek yeah so you know for them to just basically dive in and
say we're just going to make the series we have no showrunner we have no bible we have no pilot
we don't check to see that it works that's just bad practice and I and I think that's why we've gotten
so many middling um you know uh television shows I mean secret invasion right was like one of the

(47:22):
lowest rated ones I think as far as like the ratings to go and you see everything that happened in this
variety it was almost like a tell all what happened behind the scenes there it's no surprise
exactly you know and so what what we're lacking is creative vision there's always seems to be an
executive that is sort of like I think cohesive cohesive vision as well oh yeah um but if you have

(47:48):
a showrunner somebody who's hold you know with with a vision you get something significantly better
and again I go back to wand division I think wand division is one of the most successful ones of these
because it came in with a high concept with a very very clear vision of what they're going to do
with the story how Nintendo clear vision um and I think because of that creatively at the very

(48:08):
least that would work the best so my next question was you know as I I've previously stated this
is they were one of the first ones to have a connected universal in that scale and it had its growing
pains we should have been expected to have similar growing pains with this migration to a series format
I think I think to an extent Chris right but I don't think I don't think you think the hubris outweighed

(48:33):
all of it potentially I also think though that it's not it's not just that it's a growing pain
in in in transition to the small screen I don't think I think the real growing pains come from
the fact that television right now doesn't know what it wants to be you know I think that's an
industry-wide problem and I think you know when we have traditional television series network

(48:56):
television series that are still adhering to this you know 2022 episode format and then you have
what the streamers are doing which is you know basically overlong movies chopped up in the chunks
nobody's quite sure you know where the future lies with with which format is the traditional format
gonna outlast this new trend is it all just gonna be overlong movies now chopped in the pieces

(49:19):
and I think they bet in some ways on the wrong horse I've complained about this plenty but a lot of
these shows as being overlong movies they're too short and at the same time feel like they're too long
if that makes sense they're too short in the sense that we're not getting enough time with these
characters and they're too long in the sense that they have a two hour movie worth a story that

(49:43):
they're stretching over six episodes you know that's that's really the problem with how they're
making these stories right now and so basically they came in and said well we're putting these
shows on a streamer so we're gonna we're going to follow what streamers are doing right now and I
think it was really to the detriment of these properties if they would have taken you know an approach

(50:05):
dude we're getting miss Marvel on the big screen here soon right and if I wouldn't be a huge fan
from the comic books of the character and have written pretty much all her appearances I don't know
how I saw how excited I would be on the back of the TV show I mean she wasn't even in like full
miss Marvel suit till what the last episode which is a trope we need to burn burn at the stake

(50:27):
I hate we did that with Daredevil too we did that with daredevil we've had no significant
yeah that was we've had no significant adventures with her so she comes to the big screen and I
don't even feel like I really know her and the point of the TV show is supposed to be that you get
more time with these characters that you get to know them better and then when they're in a high
stake story in the big screen you care deeply what happens to them and how they weather these big crises

(50:53):
right an Avengers level movie I will say this the first Avengers movie is fine but when you go
back to it now it doesn't hold up that well and I think the reason for that in part is that out of
those characters in that movie there were three that we had seen in a movie before right Captain
America Iron Man and Thor and that was that right so we had no real sense of Black Widow we had no

(51:17):
sense real sense of Hulk it was a new Hulk so the Hulk movie whether that even applies the universal
the universal situation yeah exactly so we didn't really know if that even supposed to be the same Hulk
as the last one we saw in the rough hello Norton of it all as well yes exactly and so imagine now

(51:37):
if they do this right imagine if they would have taken their time to make us really care about all
these new characters that they've been introducing and then we hit an Avengers movie and you have
characters that people have been following in the small screen that they care deeply about being
put through these incredible pace us through the biggest crisis of their lives and a miss marvel is
there and a you know the the the the second Hulk eye is there and she Hulk is there and we really

(52:03):
care about these characters because we've been spending all this time with them I think the emotional
impact of a movie like that could be completely different at this point but I think that's an
opportunity squandered because they're basically still making movies they're just making them
longer and chopping them up into pieces they're not doing real TV shows and here's to exactly to your

(52:24):
point here's why Asoka was so important to me why I had such high standards of it because
Star Wars Rebels for me did all the things that you just laid out for those longer episodic serialized
storytelling when I saw Ezra Bridger on the screen and I don't need I'm not one of those people

(52:45):
that needs a live action version this was just a continuation of that when I saw Ezra Bridger I
had tears in my eyes it really meant a lot to me when I saw Ezra Bridger on the screen because I
love this character I care about him and seeing him a grown up like it felt like a long lost family member
you know it was returned spoilers but I think I think that's something I think you're absolutely

(53:13):
right in that now one of the one of the questions that have come up in this discussion between us is
whether they have enough I guess time real estate good faith to realign themselves or if there is a
real like superhero fatigue setting in and they won't have enough time to write this ship what do

(53:33):
you think Chris I think I have one of my best friends who after endgame and the end of the Infinity
saga which is you know a commitment to be a consumer to go to the movies or watch it you know
on digital release or home release what have you that was a long story and when that was like

(53:54):
the book end to that he checked out now he's seen a couple of them I think he saw the third volume
guardians because he had family in town and they wanted to go to the movies but other than that he's
like I'm good it's just an oversaturation and so I think he is not nerdy he is not a you know
a consumer of comic books or anything like that and so I think he's kind of representative of

(54:21):
just like general audiences perhaps critics who are you know all of a sudden kind of fading on Marvel
it's not getting the reviews it once did I think I think there is some general fatigue of Marvel
and I can I could say that honestly as a Marvel fan I could say that honestly I think

(54:42):
but at the same time I don't see this is like the downfall of the MCU especially now you know
where we're still have sag right or unstrike I think with a character like Daredevil given the
popularity of the character I think people are going to be willing to wait but I think this

(55:03):
I think this is not a blemish that is just going to be alleviated I think this is going to leave
a scar and so if Marvel does not learn from this experience I think it can can spell problems in
the future see I have a very different take on this I don't think there's necessarily superhero fatigue

(55:24):
I think there is fatigue for mediocre superhero stories and I think there's been a ton of those
middling middle of the line nothing really special to captivate you perfectly serviceable popcorn flakes
but nothing with a wow factor if that makes sense right and I think that that goes from for DC

(55:49):
probably even more so but Marvel has since you know since endgame basically produced a string of
okay content but nothing really that like shook you to the core of something really special I think
the closest we got is probably Guardians volume three I think that one that kind of forever

(56:12):
and what kind of for what kind of forever is fair as well what kind of forever I think we have to
admit though as good as the movie is a lot of the emotional response came from you know the stuff
that wasn't on the screen right correct so but those would be the two that probably
resonate I think that is a liar and I don't think we can include what kind of forever in our judgment

(56:35):
of the system since post endgame I don't think that yes I include it one way or the other I agree I
agree so the closest we got to something that really was resonant was was Guardians three at that
point right but other than that most of the stuff they produced was fine right there's nothing
offensive I think I think yeah I agree with fine I think there's a lot of overreaction like oh this

(56:58):
is dogwater this is terrible like a turnels for example was way laid critically
and I greatly enjoyed that film I did too I didn't think it was like you know earth shatteringly like
reinvent the genre or something but you know that's I think the thing that comic book real comic

(57:19):
book fans or hide like people who read comic books regularly will you know note not every story is
the pinnacle of storytelling some stories are just you know Spider-Man beating up rhino for the 60th time
but it's competent it's fun and it's a good superhero story you know do you think
audiences got spoiled by the cohesiveness of the infinity saga and now that that is over we have to

(57:49):
start telling the new story and they just a lot of people just don't have the patience to start over
what is the new story that's I think that I think is it the first is that the thing I'm assuming I'm
assuming that seems to be the through line but let's let's be honest that's the problem um you can
you can restart your self all you it's the x-men prepare yourself you can you can start a new volume

(58:14):
right of the tale if you will right and game was the end of one story you start a new one or maybe
this whole phase is like taking a deep breath but yeah I think you can even do that and have some kind
of theme or vision that goes through everything and leads to something and I'm still not sure like
the thing that we seem to be getting is there's like couple couple new Avengers movies supposed to come

(58:36):
right and we're supposed to lead to those Kang Dynasty and and what was it secretable secret wars
so you would assume that everything is building towards that but it doesn't really feel like we're
building towards that there is no very clear through line here you can't just say okay and now we're
doing the multiverse but you're really not really you're doing anything with it right um so the first

(59:03):
phase was very cohesive but at this point I don't think we have a sense for how what they've been doing
leads to this next climax right I mean what exactly did for example the Hawkeye show on Disney
Plus have to do with the multiverse right so not as I mean everything needs to know. No I

(59:26):
I rebuke that question because it gave me more uh flow pew as Yelena so I'm good. I will say that
actually I really like that one I think it would have been a very very fun movie on the big screen
you know with the Christmas theme and sort of a die hard vibe right it would have been a really really
fun big screen movie um again something that was a stretch yeah I love Bruce Wallace man he's known

(59:52):
as a lot now Dave that sucks okay so one of the questions that we've also have to raise
here is why is Marvel generally still out performing DC I have some thoughts I know you do Chris
okay so I truly don't understand a lot of what DC is doing and this perpetuating of the death

(01:00:20):
nails of this previous universe when you clearly have the next stage set up like we had another
article we could have you know talked about as well and I'll reference it here you had I think it was
a deadline article of everything that was going on with Aquaman 2 and I don't know what to believe
in that I do know that Johnny Depp and his rabid toxic oh whatever fan base releasing therapy

(01:00:52):
documents from that's disgusting really made me kind of if if what that said is true about Jason
Mamoa really broke my heart on someone who I've kind of looked up to but you know that's what happens
when you idolize celebrities I guess the amber herd of it all is just a mess I'm not interested in

(01:01:17):
diving into that court case but the flash underperforming like so I'm just confused as to I'm confused by
everything David says left us like we cancel back girl which had a large fan support but they released
flash with one of the most problematic individuals at its core to an absolute dud in every respect lost

(01:01:45):
money and now we are continuing and I'm kind of looking forward to the Aquaman sequel but it's still
like with that caveat I'm not sure what they're doing maybe that's the reason but but you're the
expert here so I'm I'm gonna could see my time to see the representative from Germany

(01:02:05):
well you know I am the biggest DC fan board there is but we're gonna have to we're gonna have to
face facts for the most part I did I'm doing it now too for the most part DC cinematic outings over
recent years have sucked pretty hard I mean I have not you know seen Blue Beetle yet and I'm almost
I'm almost afraid to it underperformed horribly right I'm hoping that it's still good and just audiences

(01:02:32):
are you know staying away because they're tired of what DC is built here but yeah it's for the most
part the DC stuff just hasn't been very good you know I think that's what it comes down to
and I don't mean to sound unkind here but it starts right away again with with the Snyder of it all
man of steel was middling at best over serious and and and kind of missed the core of a lot of things

(01:02:56):
that make Superman Superman Batman versus Superman was more of that without leaning into the differences
between the two and making Superman superdower right and more Batman like than anything else so they
just seemed like two two people that are exactly the same trying to be just not out of each other
the Martha that all you know it felt silly justice league was a mess and although the Snyder cut is

(01:03:20):
better it is still not what I would consider a great justice league movie based on some of my favorite
runs on the property Aquaman the first one was kind of a bright spot that was surprisingly fun
the flash was atrocious right the first wonder woman was a lot of fun and then you get to the second
wonder woman and it was not very good regrettably right so so much of the output of DC has been

(01:03:44):
consistently more bad than good I guess and because of the less gives us she's am somewhat the first
the first shazam was good and although I was a little kinder to the second one than you we have to
admit that one was not nearly as good so DC has a consistency problem right I'm hoping that with

(01:04:06):
this with the you know new people in charge and the new direction but they're striking and everything
that they'll find their footing now but we're still waiting you know because are we going to give
and are we going to get all of old movies are we going to give them that real estate though willing
this to start over again I think and and maybe this is me being a fanboy I don't know but I think

(01:04:28):
that if you come to the table and the first real new DC movie is supposed to be Superman legacy
if you come to the table with a blow it out of the water take on Superman people will give you the
time of day I think I think that people and I think there's a reason that both cinema you know what's

(01:04:48):
trying to start with Superman you know what's funny is you were laying out the ones that were successful
the ones that were good in quality were the lesser known heroes and the ones that were poorly
received by a majority of people are the flagship characters and so when you get your flagship

(01:05:09):
characters right I think that lends itself as to the strength of it I totally agree with that I have
such high hopes for Superman legacy you know somebody shows up with a with a banger take on super the
castings alone feels like superman alone have me excited yeah I mean that that'll change that'll
change the shape of it all this is very much a do over right they started the last cinematic universe

(01:05:33):
with man of steel they start the next one of Superman legacy right this is very much a do over
and you come to the table with a banger take on Superman then and people really like it then the next
thing is going to be I really like that Superman movie I can't wait to see this Superman interact
with Batman or with with with flash or with Wonder Woman or with any number of characters right
that's your way in a good banger take on Superman is your way in so I'm hoping that that will change

(01:06:00):
the texture of what DC is doing but Marvel put out a lot of quality movies for a long time before
they kind of settled into this middling you know popcorn movie machine that they've become
but DC has never had those heights in their recent cinematic outings I'm still waiting man you know
and that's why that that's why they get their butts kicked at the box office the DC brand when it

(01:06:23):
comes to big screen doesn't it doesn't matter it does not inspire confidence I agree I don't think
I don't think DC for the ones that we did enjoy I don't think they ever had something to the level
of Captain America winter soldier I don't know God that's something God is so good I don't think they've
had something along the lines of an infinity war or Thor Ragnarok I don't think they've had something

(01:06:49):
like that good yeah I think that's fair I think you know you just laying it out like that like why
the Snyder of it all it just doesn't vibe with me and this is just personal taste and in the age
where a lot of people are dealing with mental health issues I go to video games to movies to television

(01:07:10):
series for an escapism I'm not I don't typically pick out dour things because I'm already dealing with
stuff I don't there's nothing uplifting I know that the symbol stands for hope but I didn't feel it
I didn't feel that from that movie and so that's that's just for me why did it vibe with any of that

(01:07:31):
which brings which brings me to I think the the question the final question the one that we really
need to figure out which is can they pull this off right if they if they bring in showrunners if
they write a series bible if they do a pilot if they you know if they pump back a little bit and
try to really focus on a different kind of model of television storytelling can they pull this off

(01:07:52):
Chris I think they can I'm just interested to see and I think something that definitely needs to be
noted before I answer this before we have our discussion about this is this is why the WGA went on
strike this is why the WGA fought for all of their rights for their compensations because this is

(01:08:18):
why this is happening this is not because marvel is all of a sudden getting marvel studios and the
company Disney is not all of a sudden getting like this moment of Paul on the road to Damascus or
whatever like or oh I have a life changing experience and I want to do something altruistic no this

(01:08:41):
is because the WGA fought their butts off and and struck for so long to get things like this but I
think it's in what's interesting for me is just not not just the marvel of it all we talked about
this a lot as and I said this in our text art is like Netflix at all has kind of warped the way

(01:09:02):
series are made now and we've talked about the pros of the cons of that you still have your legacy media
companies like CBS and whatnot but that's not like the standard practice anymore like CBS will put out
something like blue bloods or other serialized like for generally older populaces and demographics

(01:09:23):
but for the most part this is how we build a series now and I likened it to like Frankenstein's
monster and sometimes you put all these disparate parts together and it works like the first season
or two of the Witcher especially it worked that monster you put it together you get the electricity

(01:09:45):
and it comes alive and it works for that something like the bear on Hulu which this is not a nerdy thing
but you absolutely have to watch that breakneck speed lends itself to like working in a restaurant
and things of that nature so I'm really fascinated to see if this does in the case and I think

(01:10:09):
when you and I think I think it will personally I think it will when you're fairly compensating people
when you have workers that feel valued that feel fairly compensated that feel emboldened to be creative
you know speaking for myself when I'm under a boss an administrator that emboldens me I want to work

(01:10:35):
better I want to work harder for them when I feel emboldened so if they truly have someone with a strong
creative vision and they have talented people listen the writing was never the problem with these
series Dave shehawk the writing is some of the best stuff shouts to our pal Cody Ziggler

(01:11:00):
whom we adore writing on shehawk and all those people Jessica go like even shehawk had some mess in
that in that THR article that we're referencing here and it survived the experience though
because I think the world of shehawk and I need a second season announced now Marble get it together

(01:11:22):
but yeah I think they can because when you empower and embolden people to be creative
and you just let them cook then then then they could do just that
yeah I will agree with that and I think this is definitely something they can pull off
I think there is still enough momentum I think in the brand that if they start putting out

(01:11:49):
you know more quality content that people will come back you know and I think that they've already
done a few smart things over Disney plus like for example with a soka when they started releasing one
episode at a time again right I like that Disney you know it's not doing the binge drops
I like how they're doing it like it's like nine o'clock some like like Loki's doing this nine o'clock

(01:12:12):
Thursday nights a soka did the same thing like that's such a smart thing it was one of the things max
does well is nine p.m. Sunday nights they released the new episode of whatever their big show is of
that quarter yeah and I think that encourages water cooler talk and encourages discussion it encourages
word of mouth to spread it stretches the impact of a show a little bit instead of it being like a

(01:12:35):
blip you watched it all in one night and it's gone you know and I think if they keep that in place and
they start putting out better product again then people will talk more the mouth will spread that's
what anybody just wants is just really good content from the MCU and if they do that I think people will
come back so I'm hoping that this is this is this beginning of a serious shift in in the quality of

(01:13:01):
the product because they're willing to change how they're making the product all right folks there
you have it what are your thoughts on the big shift in the MCU small screen production what is your
take on dare devil getting retooled in delayed you can find us on social media at an art by word
or individually at that nerd day in a that nerd Chris stick around because after our break we have

(01:13:22):
a final nerd nightmare of the spooky season ladies and gentlemen it's welcome to the final

(01:13:44):
and in this week's nerd nightmare we have come full circle we began this year's nightmare with the
evil dead Sam Raimi's first movie and we are gonna end with Sam Raimi's so far final scary movie
which is of course 2009's drag me to hell starring Alison Lohman and Justin Long here is the tagline

(01:14:07):
Christine Brown played by Alison Lohman has a loving boyfriend played by Justin Long a great job at a
Los Angeles bank but her heavenly life becomes hellish when in an effort to impress her boss she denies
an old woman's request for an extension on her home loan in retaliation the chrome places a curse
on Christine we have a tack of the chrome you would I was gonna say you would say one might say we

(01:14:28):
have an attack of a crown threatening her soul with eternal damnation Christine seeks a psychic's
help to break the curse but the price to save her soul maybe more than she can pay production budget
on the movie was 30 million dollars it had a box office of 90 point eight million and Chris that
special time has come what is your reaction to drag me to hell so first and foremost let me say

(01:14:57):
homegirl deserved everything she did because I am a cat daddy and what she did to that cat
I was ready to drag her myself absolutely not I said I texted you I think I had a cat daddy
fuck this movie so yeah so it's really funny like now that like I've always heard people say oh that's

(01:15:28):
such a ramey thing it's such a ramey is when I was watching Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness
oh that's such a ramey thing and now I'm kind of the the picture is getting colored in for me a little
bit and I think absolutely gross and disgusting things are just a rameism like there's so much gross
stuff like I had like a stink bug that got in the house while I was watching this movie and it

(01:15:52):
tripped me out so yeah another rameism is is Christine getting passed over at the beginning for this
new guy that's such a ramey is I'm I almost felt like pizza time from spider-man to like it's
it's such a such a familiar thing just in long as such a 2009 casting like he was everywhere 2007

(01:16:21):
to 2012 I would say also why are you on speakerphone your girlfriend just walked out of your office
she can clearly hear your problematic conversation with your mom like stop it I said it was a perfect
ending because of you know the crimes committed against that poor little kitten I wanted to take him
home and take care of him and nurse him back to health I needed to take a shower after this movie

(01:16:47):
it was just gross I think the the Roma G word tropes are pretty problematic if we're being completely
honest that's something that I did I was not well informed of a couple of years ago and then with
release of WandaVision I've done my own research in a deep dive and I think there's a lot of stuff

(01:17:13):
that we can do better in popular media and representation of the Roma people and you know this was made in 2009
so that's something that needs to be you know brought into into the discussion music absolutely
spellbinding absolutely great I think my favorite thing now that I've seen all three spider-man

(01:17:37):
movies I've seen Multiverse of Madness have seen Evil Dead and I've seen NowDrag Van
Hell that my favorite thing that Sam Remy does impeccably is build suspense jump scares will always
get me and all of that but the way he builds with music with dread with the close-ups I think it's

(01:17:58):
top-notch and you'd be hard pressed to find somebody does it better than that I love the multicultural
viewpoints on spirituality you had you had Latina you know spirituality obviously Catholicism
probably invoked in there you had a guy of Southeast Asian descent and so you had

(01:18:19):
those spiritual aspects as well I thought that was pretty cool but yeah I overall enjoyed this
it was a little bit deeply unserious which is something that I've seen with you know I think I
think Remy is famous for horror comedy with the Evil Dead and everything so there was a little bit of

(01:18:44):
goofiness when the lay me kind of embodied the assistant there I texted you I was scrolling through
my feed and there was a marketplace listing of an old woman selling her rings on her wrinkled hand
and I like threw my phone because I was like no she's coming back but yeah I really enjoyed this one

(01:19:05):
overall more than I thought I would you know with it with a with a very strong title like drag me to
hell I was like okay I mean prepare myself but I think it was really smartly done and absolutely
achieved its objectives of creeping me out yeah I'm a big fan of Sam Remy when he makes horror movies I
think he makes a lot of movies really well but I think he he kind of duff-tailed a bit into like

(01:19:32):
just really strong mainstream Hollywood stuff right at one point in his career and I think he would have
he could have been like one of the great influences on modern horror cinema if he would have done
a few more these you know because you're right he's he's fantastic at building suspense but he is also
he doesn't take himself too seriously so there is sort of a weird joy in watching a lot of his movies

(01:19:58):
and that one moment you can be scared one moment you can be grossed out the next moment you're laughing
your butt off I'm thinking like the the thing with the goat for example during that say on you tricked me
I laughed so hard at the time first time I saw that I thought I was gonna fall out of my seat
and then the struggle in the car with the chrome yes and her teeth and her teeth fall out

(01:20:20):
yeah it was simultaneously gross and funny like why am I growing up?
yeah yeah and there's yes and and I think he straddles those tones so well you know I talked a
little bit about how the most recent new evil dead movie was too almost too much for me right it was
it was too real too gross and and I had no joy in watching the movie I like to have you know fun

(01:20:46):
being scared when I'm watching a scary movie I guess and Sam Raimi is just right in that sweet spot
where he can make you tense and he can scare you and then he can release that tension with a well-placed
laugh and then you just you you're finding joy in being scared if that makes sense right it's like
riding a roller coaster and and those to me are the best scary movies and that's one of the reasons I

(01:21:09):
appreciate a movie like direct me to hell so much and I wish just I really sincerely wished that
Raimi would have done a few more horror movies like if he would come back and then direct another one
I would probably be first in line to watch it because I really like how he approached us to genre
I think the cast is really strong in this movie as well I want to make sure we say that before we
end up before we wrap here I think Alson Loman who I've never seen before I don't think maybe I've

(01:21:33):
seen her in something else I thought she absolutely carried this really really really well um just
and long is that milk toast kind of doofus so he's perfect there um shots to delete Rao who
inception was that seminal movie for me in this time period and so seeing him again was was a joy

(01:21:54):
and then the guy who played Justin Long's dad I remember that was a deep cut I remember him from
the 90s heyday of blank check and Richie Rich so that was oh yeah yeah I wrote back because I love
I love those movies um but yeah I really really enjoyed this one and you know it isn't it is in some

(01:22:15):
respect at least the interesting meditation of how far you're willing to go how far anybody is willing
to go to save themselves right and the fact that she does all these pretty horrific things in order
to save her soul and then ultimately spoilers it's not successful right is is is is is really really
fascinating and makes you exactly like you said makes you almost feel like this is a disdeserved

(01:22:38):
right diner scene was incredible incredible because she almost passes the
book to this elderly man but then she sees like that he still has his wife and like still has like
happiness even in those moments of the twilight of his life and so she's like well crap I can't do
that and then she immediately of course calls the one person like you think is is this horrible horrible

(01:23:05):
co-worker but then he gives her some sob story she falls for it like girl if you don't give him that
button except for that does it wasn't actually the button yeah uh yeah then that was an incredible
impeccable ending nailed it I remember when seeing that ending on the on the big screen and I was like
the heck just happened she lost this is how we're going like I appreciate it that ending as well

(01:23:30):
yeah it's really cool all right folks there you have it that was it for episode 169 of an
nerd-baward podcast and also the end of this year's nerd nightmare and Chris has
next week we're going to be back with nerd commentations once again we've both done some reading so
we should have some nerd commentations for you if you like what you just heard get on your favorite

(01:23:54):
podcasting platform give us a rating and review and subscribe so you never miss another episode
we are wherever podcasts can be found as well as our very own specific website nerdbaward.com
and you can find us across all the wasteland that is social media at nerdbaward on
select ones okay twix at that nerd day even that nerd Chris but as always stay well and stay nerdy

(01:24:19):
the nerdbaward is written and produced by Chris and Dave two nerds with a love of all things pop culture
the podcast features music by al yimenez with additional drops composed by joe biammi our show art is
by ashery design find us at nerdbaward.com and wherever podcasts are available

(01:24:42):
you
you
(upbeat music)