June 28, 2022 • 58 mins
Sophie Macklin is an anarchist mystic living on Tongva land, near the Los Angeles river. She’s lived in California for fifteen years but comes from Canterbury, England.
She practises brythonic polytheism, antifascism, devotion to an animate world, and anarchist living. She specializes in topics related to anarchism, mysticism, radical history, communication with the human and more than human world, anti-capitalism, antifascism, reclaiming the commons, anti-ableism, and exploring different ways of knowing.
Sophie is the person I chose to be the first reader of the manuscript for my book, The Spirited Kitchen. From the very earliest kernel of thought I had about potentially writing a book, she came to mind as the person I wanted to give me the first pass of honest feedback. Why? Because I think she might be the smartest person I know. Her cultural analysis is tops and I have learned so, so, so much from her way of teaching and of being in business.
And at the time, I still had some things to unpack in my own mind about what to valorize and what not to valorize in a book about ancestral veneration, as a white settler under capitalism, in a time of increasing fascism. I knew there was nuance needed and also some firmness and boundaries so that my work couldn't be pressed into the service of white supremacy. I’m so grateful for Sophie for helping me see how I could improve my manuscript.
Here we are jamming on anarchy, antifascism, ableism, and ungovernable bodies.
Check out Sophie's work here:
Radical Well Tending: Living Folkways of Care with Sophie & Becka
I also mentioned RCCX Theory. This is a model we often use when we discuss sickness in The Numinous Network, particularly within the Sensitive Nervous Systems + Long Covid Connection group.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
The Numinous podcast with Carbon Spano.
Hi there and welcome to the Numinous podcast where we have interesting conversations with everyday folks about the Mystery of Life.
I'm your host,
Carmen Spagnola,
joining you from the lands of the Laquon speaking peoples,
(00:27):
the song.
He's in Esquimalt,
first nations recently known as Victoria BC Canada and my friends.
I'm so excited.
We are so lucky today,
Sophie Macklin joins us on the Numinous podcast.
You know,
when you have someone that you admire professionally very much and so first you friend them on Facebook and you follow them for a long time there and then you start kind of stalking them on Instagram and sort of wishing they would post more.
(00:58):
And then so then you have to like take their courses,
you take all their courses because you just want to hear them talk and then,
and then you start citing them constantly in your own work to the point where your clients and students have to take their courses in order to understand what you're saying.
That's what's happening right now.
(01:20):
I'm making everyone who's a listener of the podcast become a fan of Sophie Macklin.
If you aren't already.
I think if you've been in any of my courses,
you've been like,
man,
I really gotta take one of these courses that Sophie offers because Carmen's talking about them all the time.
Um So if you are just meeting Sophie Macklin for the first time on this show,
(01:41):
I'm so excited for you.
So,
Sophie is an anarchist mystic living on to the land near the L A river.
She's lived in California for like 15 years,
but she comes from Canterbury,
England.
She practices Brythonic polytheism,
anti fascism,
devotion to an animate world and anarchist living.
(02:03):
She specializes in topics related to anarchism,
mysticism,
radical history,
communication with the more and more than human world,
anti capitalism,
anti fascism,
reclaiming the commons,
anti ableism and exploring different ways of knowing.
I want to tell you that I chose her to be the first reader of the manuscript of my book,
(02:25):
The Spirited Kitchen.
And to be honest,
from the very earliest kernel of thought I had about even potentially writing a book like this.
She came to mind as the person I wanted to give me the first pass of honest feedback.
And I'm so grateful to her for being gracious and difficult about my shitty first draft where I wasn't articulating what I meant very well.
(02:49):
But also I still had some things to unpack in my own mind about what to valorize and how much and what not to in a book about ancestral veneration as a white settler under capitalism.
In a time of increasing fascism,
I knew there was nuance needed and also a certain kind of firmness and some boundaries at times so that my work couldn't be pressed into the service of white supremacy.
(03:20):
So I'm very grateful to Sophie for helping me see how I could improve my manuscript.
Anyway,
here we are now jamming on anarchy,
anti fascism,
ableism and ungovernable bodies.
Sophie.
I'm so glad you're here and I'm so excited for this conversation.
(03:42):
Please start us off with um telling us what identities do you lead with?
OK.
Yeah,
I'm so happy to be here with you too,
Carmen.
Um I guess kind of like everyone,
I feel like um my identity is something bigger than the categories that we have for them now.
Um And something that's always shifting in a relationship both with other human configurations and with um different times and the modern human world.
(04:14):
Um But in terms of kind of situating myself um in the current hierarchies of social organization that we live in.
Um I'm a white uh working class from a generationally poor family um person.
(04:34):
But within that,
I'm from England and so I was poor but living in a country that has um been practicing massive violent exploitation around the world for everyone accumulating wealth that way.
And so definitely benefited from things like the welfare state in a country.
Um Yeah,
built on colonization.
(04:55):
Um And I'm a queer fem,
this woman.
Um,
I'm disabled and sick and,
um,
a psychiatric survivor.
Um,
and an anarchist.
And that was important to me.
(05:15):
Um,
yeah,
I think they are the big ones.
So,
even just from your response,
I'm sure there are people who are already,
like,
wow.
So,
I know,
I,
you know,
whenever I've been in your classes and as I've observed what you share on social over the years,
(05:38):
like it,
I'm always curious,
like,
were you raised in a particularly politically informed household?
Like,
how did you become radicalized?
How did you know,
to even be an anarchist?
Like that?
That is fascinating with me.
So,
and are you comfortable with the term radicalized when I,
I,
like,
I don't,
I don't know if,
(05:58):
if that applies to you.
Yeah,
like,
I think it is a word that makes sense within the limits of language that we have for understanding these things right now.
Um But yeah,
for me,
it was something that felt.
So my family wasn't um particularly political.
Like I don't feel like I was raised um with that kind of like um analysis or sort of political stuff happening at home.
(06:23):
But like I said,
you know,
we were poor and um just,
I,
I guess for me it's something that's strange.
I feel like I was born like this.
Like,
I feel like when I was a little kid I was aware that things were not quite right and that I didn't understand why everyone else didn't think that,
like,
everyone mattered,
(06:44):
plants and animals mattered.
And um I was also just really struck by the levels of like different types of domination um and hierarchy.
Like I would be in school,
particularly,
like looking at how teachers wielded power arbitrarily or just um and always felt something in me really wanting to resist that.
(07:07):
Um And so,
yeah,
when I was like six,
like,
I became vegetarian because,
like,
I really cared about animals and um started doing little,
like activist projects.
I had a little briefcase full of like pamphlets and stuff when I was like seven.
And so,
um so I've just like,
always really cared a lot about this stuff,
but um I guess I didn't have the language around anarchy until I was older.
(07:32):
Um And sort of,
yeah,
went through,
I guess some classic kind of like,
um like in my teens,
like,
what might be considered more like liberal activism or sort of activist stuff,
just what was available.
Um And honestly,
a kind of like free party scene in England,
the kind of like rave culture stuff and protests and stuff that I feel like was a um a really vibrant subculture of kind of like illegality in a way,
(07:59):
like being um against the sort of rules and laws of our culture.
Um And then,
yeah,
I think I became self consciously an anarchist when I was like,
yeah,
late teens or 20 or something like that.
Hm.
I,
I don't know if this is the right if we still use this term.
But I feel like in England there is a strong tradition amongst the underclass,
(08:24):
if I can still call it that um of punk anarchy,
like to a certain extent it's youth culture.
But like you brought up the brave culture,
even Pink Floyd,
you know,
like this whole kind of like a long tradition of uh resistance really.
So maybe,
(08:45):
maybe that's sort of a thing lacking in my Canadian upbringing that makes me assume like,
how did you get politicized if not go to school?
But I think there is just a lot more culture of um class consciousness.
Um Maybe in,
in that,
that time and place.
What do you think?
Yeah,
(09:05):
I think there is definitely more like,
I live in California now and like,
there are definitely,
I think there is more like in England and probably when I was growing up than here but,
but not very much and I think more sort of um in other places but um like the subcultures I was part of was small,
you know,
like when I was finding the,
(09:26):
like I was a weirdo,
you know,
OK,
this wasn't like massive um movement.
This was like,
um yeah,
I was like finding the other kind of like freaks and weirdos and people who loved everything and cared about the forest.
Um So I think it was still pretty small in fringe.
(09:46):
Um But yeah,
but then did you just read a ton of books?
Did you go to university?
How did you come to be?
So um like,
articulate with your class analysis and how did you,
how did you come to understand like power and hierarchy in a,
(10:08):
in a really explicit way?
You know,
there are lots of people who have like lived experience of oppression and so they,
you know,
can develop um coping or,
or um adaptation strategies,
but not everybody can become a teacher of like,
what,
let's understand the analysis here of like what is actually going on and off the,
(10:28):
the sort of cultural critique you do?
Yeah.
So I guess it's been like a lifelong journey,
you know,
like,
I know that's a cliche but like,
I'm 37 now and it's been like a lot of things over that time.
Um But for me,
it really was like,
I was thinking a lot as a kid and writing quite a lot and thinking and talking and like,
I feel like a lot of my ideas really were developed there like young.
(10:51):
But um I also,
I dropped out of school when I was 14 and I think that was important.
And I think um my mom kind of supported me in that because she knew how much I like,
read and wanted to learn about the world.
And I was so like,
um passionate about that.
So I carried on uh yeah,
reading,
seeking people out,
(11:11):
seeking things out.
Um And then I did do a course to go to university.
Um But I was just there for a year and then like a year and a bit and then I dropped out.
Um and I've just carried on learning and I think also part of this analysis,
like in anarchist subcultures,
there's like a very robust,
like um practice of like,
(11:31):
experimenting with these things,
you know,
in lived reality and then reading things and talking about them with each other.
And it's almost like we all have like phd S in like,
like an aesthetics and,
you know,
like,
it really has been for me,
like um a constant engagement with like,
yeah,
reading but also practicing and embodying and feeling.
(11:53):
Um Yeah.
Really?
Really?
OK.
So this brings me to a question that uh you know,
I,
I had until probably taking um beyond the blood with you because,
you know,
like,
I,
I can like,
read stuff and look it up and Google it and kinda have a sense of it.
(12:14):
But actually,
I would love for you to share with listeners.
Like,
is there a difference between anarchy and anti fascism?
Like,
how would you define those two terms for people just beginning to learn about anarchism and anti anti fascism?
Yeah.
Um So,
yeah,
I do think they're different,
like,
I guess for me anarchy and anarchism is like a um like is working to all,
(12:42):
like living with an ethic of like non domination and non coercion in everything.
And so it's like a relational practice.
It's like a um a way of being in the world that applies to everything.
Um And yeah,
so I think,
um and sort of not,
(13:04):
I think it differs from like other sort of things that are sort of political ideologies or something where it's not about having like a 10 step plan for the future,
but really building the things we want to be building that might still exist in the future by creating them now and living it now.
Um So that's how I see anarchy.
And I think of anti fascism as,
(13:24):
you know,
it's more specific,
like it's against fascism.
And even though I think an anarchist would always be antifascists.
Antifascists aren't always anarchists.
And I think of anti fascism as like the practice of fighting fascism.
Um And so it might share some of those similar values that I just described for anarchy.
But I think um anti fascism is literally doing things to stop fascism,
(13:48):
um whatever that looks like,
which is many things.
But yeah.
Mhm So anarchy has this reputation as just being no rules,
no rules.
You don't listen to anyone,
you don't care,
fuck the government like it's that kind of thing.
But what you're describing seems to be much more centered around love and consent and things like that.
(14:11):
And so what would you say are some of the,
the,
like,
values that maybe,
I don't know,
it's like,
maybe people don't think of when they think of anarchy,
maybe they do think of a more,
um,
punk aesthetic and,
you know,
maybe even,
um,
at times,
like,
rough or violent or,
like,
destruction of property and things like that,
(14:32):
like,
you're describing something different where,
like,
everybody loves the forest and is having very consensual conversations around relationships and stuff.
Like,
yeah.
Yeah,
I think,
um I think it's like one of the ways that it's been um described by sort of dominant culture as this very narrow thing is to put people off basically,
(14:56):
you know,
and I think that that's,
um that's part of it.
Um And I think,
and I don't want to sort of um diminish the fact that,
you know,
anarchists do sometimes use violence or like,
do you know,
it,
it's like a multifaceted thing where people are willing to resist um oppression in all sorts of ways.
So it's not like completely other to that.
But,
um,
(15:17):
yeah,
I think it's um something that also where we've been raised and sort of indoctrinated so intensely into this idea of like what a peaceful stable society looks like,
um which basically is society that keeps its violence very hidden to a lot of like,
white middle class voters,
(15:38):
for example.
Um that is actually horrifically violent.
Um,
that has this semblance of order.
And so to think of something that makes that violence apparent is the thing that then gets called like chaos or like disorder.
Um But yeah,
it is often just making those tensions visible and trying to do something else.
(16:01):
Yeah.
So what were you noticing then in your various communities?
And like,
and in the social media sys uh ecosystem that prompted you to create your anti fascist folklore course uh beyond the blood.
Yeah.
So um it was a lot of things kind of over time and um for people who don't know that was like a class.
(16:25):
Yeah,
like looking at how like um especially like uh yeah,
white people,
especially in uh the US,
Canada,
Australia and New Zealand,
like um have been looking to European ancestry practices European folklore um in a way that's really exploded in the last few years that has been going on for a while.
Um And how that has started to overlap with a lot of uh fascist,
(16:49):
like outright fascist stuff.
And like,
well,
I'm thinking when I took your course,
I was like,
oh hashtags,
I just like,
it never occurred to me really,
like,
I don't really read hashtags I think of like,
oh,
that's what people are putting for the algorithm or whatever.
But I,
but then when I looked at some of the accounts that you recommended you were like,
(17:10):
and then here I,
what were some of the hashtags that you were,
like,
watch out for that one.
Yeah.
Well,
it was really interesting because,
like,
you'd see,
I'd see people I know liking things that are just like,
say polish traditional dress or something.
Some p,
like a woman in a polish dress or whatever.
And the hashtags would be like,
white is beautiful old,
(17:32):
like,
like,
not fucking around,
you know,
like really um explicit um stuff and just realizing that so much of that stuff that's kind of considered like,
sort of ethnic dress or like um is being heavily promoted um by white supremacists and white nationalists.
(17:53):
Um And so seeing that stuff and honestly,
in the sort of two or three years that I've been doing that class and working on it has grown exponentially,
like those accounts,
like the sort of really extreme accounts that are outright fascists that will literally have a post that's like fascism with like flowers and stuff like that.
That's why fascism is interesting or like um or just lots of,
(18:16):
yeah,
outright sort of white supremacist content.
Um Those accounts have grown significantly.
Um And their influence in their language has spread a lot too.
You can still see that in things that don't think of themselves as fascist.
Um Can we maybe I don't want to say exactly define fascism but maybe can we explain fascism and the relationship with white supremacy because they're not totally equivalent.
(18:43):
OK,
we can like Google it,
but essentially there's like a there's um a hierarchy of control and it's like absolute control and absolute power and it starts to bring in a purity ethic.
And so this is where we start to go from.
Like this is a political ideology about like who's in charge and who runs the country and how did they get installed there to what are the characteristics of the society that we have?
(19:12):
And it starts to become more of a cultural movement.
So I like this is because I think people might be surprised to think what fascism with pretty flowers and it's like,
yeah,
because fascism goes from being a political ideology about like power and how one obtains it and who gets to hold it and for how long and all of that and then starts to become a life way that is like a whole,
(19:40):
it's an identity like these should be different things,
right?
But essentially um can do you have any thoughts on,
on like just helping people understand?
Yeah.
Um It's funny,
it feels so big,
which is why I teach a class is six weeks long on it,
I think.
Um But I think that some of the things that,
(20:01):
yeah,
like you were saying the purity stuff is really um prevalent and interesting,
like this idea of like in a fascist society.
Um there's this idea of kind of unity,
like a cross class,
alliance of unity.
Um But it's always set in opposition to and other you know,
and there has to be some way that this,
(20:21):
like,
who's in is defined and we can see that,
you know,
obviously,
famously with kind of Nazi Germany and this idea of like aryans and stuff like that.
There's something I think is important about fascism.
I think that word has been,
it gets overused and used to mean something that's not fascism.
Like,
I think it gets used to mean just like something very controlling or something,
(20:43):
you know,
or like,
I know Feminazi sprung to mind,
you know,
just like,
or like when a government does something very um yeah,
controlling or brutal,
it gets called fascist when I think that's often downplaying the violence of liberalism,
you know,
I think often some of the things people are describing as fascist violence or just liberal violence.
(21:05):
Um And I think,
yeah,
something that's really important to recognize the fascism throughout time is that it has this like big social movement aspect with a lot of characteristics that are unique to it,
that it's not just a more extreme version of what we have now.
Um And so some of those things would be like a sort of strong charismatic leader,
(21:26):
um a real celebration of like traditional ideas of like masculinity um and power and domination and almost like a sort of fetishization of those things.
Um And this idea of traditionalism,
this idea of um creating a narrative that goes back through time of this great people.
Um and kind of going back to it,
(21:48):
which is one of the ways that overlaps a lot with ancestry stuff that all fascist movements have done this,
like,
appealing to this,
like heroic past that we can like connect with and then have this um like go back to a more like pure essential culture.
Um And very much based in sort of the natural order of things that fascism will make appeals to kind of like what natural man is and what like um yeah,
(22:16):
this idea around sort of purity and those who are considered not to fit into that needing to be like eliminated or destroyed um or changed.
So this is like how you go from like cottage core,
your feet to like,
oh it's this like old tiny vintage,
(22:36):
like we're going back to find our ancestral lineage and our roots and like,
oh,
this is the traditional dress and then like next thing you know,
it,
it's like this versus that and we claim this land and we claim this,
this is our space and there like then this like entitlement purity,
other thing kind of happens.
(22:58):
The next thing you know,
there's like,
hashtag white is beautiful at the bottom of your Yeah.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And I think that is an important thing like that.
Um the ways that kind of blood and soil ideologies overlap with a lot of things that people I know.
And you know,
you know,
sort of like a social subcultures or whatever um are interested in,
of like connection to land and being meant to place and ancestry that these are ideas that are very um popular also with fascists.
(23:27):
Um And have been always,
and then it's interesting to see how that has like grown and how it's adapted that um like,
as well as these,
like,
you know,
fascist states that have existed in the past,
there have been these like fascist currents fas movements.
Um And that a lot of the work they've done has been deliberately in the kind of cultural sphere because after world war,
(23:48):
I i it's hard to be like,
I'm a fascist and we're organizing for fascism,
you know,
and so it was more like in music or art or um publishing and um these different ways that um they've spread their influence and normalized ideas that might seem abhorrent if you mix them with certain things.
(24:09):
Um But have actually been very sort of successful and I think we're seeing the fruits of a lot of that now.
Um And yeah,
I think for a lot of people who are um connecting with like uh different European traditions or something.
For example,
if you look up on like youtube feels especially um intense with this,
like a Scottish folk song on youtube and then look at the comments and I would sort of stand by saying you could look up any Scottish folk song and look at the comments for this and you'll see a lot of people um saying things about like often Americans and stuff talking about like Whiteness or like Scottish heritage um as something that needs to be like preserved,
(24:51):
sort of anti immigrant sentiment.
Um And really idealizing this idea of like a thin white woman in a long dress,
like in the highlands,
sing a song or something as this romantic image of like how it was and what we need to get back to and we need to get rid of all this like mess like around it.
Um And so you can see how it's so influential where it's like if people are just looking up certain things that,
(25:14):
that's what they're coming across.
Um And yeah,
people are like a lot of people in these kind of fascist and fascist adjacent movements are like doing rituals every solstice,
you know,
right now and um on the full moons and new moons and um their Instagram accounts look like these beautiful rituals and um to the old gods.
(25:35):
And um if you don't know,
sometimes you won't know,
you know,
when you're first looking at it.
Um but those ideas are kind of being spread through that.
Um Well,
you're speaking to that notion too of like kind of creating a sense of we've lost something.
And so now we have to preserve this thing.
(25:57):
And so there's this like hyper um protective mode of like,
yeah,
we have to preserve and there's like,
the stuff about authenticity and all of that and it's,
like,
never messy.
Whereas,
like,
in reality it's like,
yeah,
it's very messy.
It's very,
um,
disconnected.
(26:17):
There's hardly anything that hasn't been kind of a fairly recent in,
you know,
invention of,
like,
for instance,
you about the Scottish revival of,
like,
the late 18 hundreds,
early 19 hundreds,
like,
super recent?
Right.
So,
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No,
I think that's really true that a lot of the stuff that um the ways that I've seen people kind of accidentally wander into those kind of like uh pathway on those pathways is that idea of looking for these like pure traditions.
(26:48):
And um also this idea of like uh nations,
states,
like Nations of Europe.
Um And I think people who I know who are sort of anti racist,
you know,
consider themselves to be anti racist white people have,
you know,
taken DNA tests and tried to find out who their ancestors are so that then they know which practices they can draw on so as not to appropriate from like indigenous cultures and stuff,
(27:14):
which I think is a great important thing not to do and a great intention.
Um But I think a lot of what that's looked like is this uh ramification of these national identities that didn't even exist in prehistory where,
but where it's just like something from the 17 hundreds is suddenly being seen as the place to find belonging in and that feeds very nicely into these kind of nationalist.
(27:38):
Um And then in the US sort of like white nationalist um ideologies and like with that,
I think this um idea that I think a lot of people have been pursuing of like,
who are you,
who were you before?
You were white or whatever?
You know,
I feel like it's been a popular question in subcultures I'm connected to.
Um And I think it's led to some dangerous places.
(28:01):
Like,
I think it's um what the answer has often come back as is like,
I was German and Danish and Irish or something.
And that's where my family's from.
Um Rather than sitting with the very complex thing that we are white.
Um And that the nation identity isn't actually any better like that.
(28:22):
These are the nations that have like,
colonized the world,
like thrived on violence.
Um And again,
I feel like a lot of the sort of far,
right,
ancestry groups are just ready to sort of scoop people up who are seeking um that kind of thing.
100%.
I see that a lot when people are following or kind of talking about Celtic.
And I'm always like,
(28:43):
what do you mean,
like,
where are we talking about?
When are we talking about it?
Like we're talking about a language group,
are we talking about?
Like,
so that does all I that's like one place with like looking at different hashtags where,
yeah,
very quickly.
Yeah.
Yeah,
(29:03):
I'll be following some.
I,
I'm on tiktok now,
just started on the Tik Tok.
And so,
yeah,
I don't feel like it's so fun,
but I'm just stumbling around,
don't really understand the culture of it and like,
it feels much more like being just like having a fire hose,
kind of like sprayed on you of like things like you're not really trying to follow.
But I was shocked,
(29:23):
I tell you at how many times I like,
oh,
I,
OK,
here's this creator.
I'm seeing more than once and spending time on their videos and they're talking about,
yeah,
let's say Scottish or like Celtic heritage.
Sometimes they're Scottish,
sometimes they're American,
sometimes they're,
you know,
wherever and they'll,
they'll be like little tiny phrases thrown out like I'm indigenous to this land.
(29:47):
I earned it and I'm like,
whoa,
wait,
whoa,
wait,
like what you just said,
what,
what are you saying?
And then,
and so it like,
starts off pretty good and then something and then like,
I don't know,
it gets like a little messy and the next thing you know,
I'm like,
oh,
I,
yeah,
I have wandered into a back room but I do not want to be like,
(30:10):
I get out.
Yeah.
And I think it's really,
I think that's actually a great example of that thing about,
um,
the word indigenous and this idea of like European indigeneity that is like a complete appropriation of indigenous struggle um like here in South Island and other places.
But um and that was something that was deliberate,
like you can kind of trace that there's like,
(30:32):
um I don't know if you know the British National Party,
like a far right political party,
they were like in England.
Um And their leader at the time was Nick Griffin.
And he was really pushing this thing about English,
like indigenous Britons,
indigenous English people um as an as an anti immigration stance.
(30:54):
Um And this idea really spread with these kind of like,
far right,
white nationalist types to talk about this idea of European indigeneity um as this thing to be protected,
you know,
because it's really just like appropriating like a lot of the language of the struggle of like indigenous people.
Um And then you see people now using that,
(31:14):
like who I think would not consider themselves to be um like,
oh very much,
very much and are very much trying to find language that is respectful about.
I'm trying to do ancestral veneration within my white lineages and trying to think about being indigenous to what land.
And uh yeah,
I was leading um a somatic session and I said something about like,
(31:38):
we don't know what somatics were like for white people and how,
you know,
like,
I don't know what,
what like indigenous highlanders of my uh lineage would do because they've been displaced,
not just for the past 3,
400.
But like,
since the romance came,
like,
I don't know,
like,
I have no idea.
(31:59):
Right.
And so,
so,
and then I kind of had to backtrack afterwards and be like,
ok,
well,
wait a second not to say.
And now as a white person,
I'm more bereft than indigenous people in island.
You know,
like,
it's just like,
wow,
we just do not have the language for like,
what is it?
I'm trying to point to which is like a person who is of a place.
(32:21):
Oh my gosh,
can I tell you another story?
This is a second hand story that I just heard of a friend.
And she was at an event that was mostly white people and there was an elder who was talking about her mixed race heritage and um but very much sharing kind of like teachings of indigenous Turtle Island teachings.
(32:49):
And in it,
she was asking how many generations people had lived,
their,
their,
their ancestors had been in what we call North America.
And then like,
basically made an affirmative statement to them about being of the land if they'd been there for seven generations.
And I gasped,
I like jumped back in my chair and was like,
(33:12):
no,
she did.
So even like not having been there,
I'm like,
oh wow,
is this ever going to be manipulated?
Contorted,
weaponized,
used as defense?
Like I could,
I,
I just,
I can see how so dangerous.
This is and everybody in that room,
(33:32):
I'm sure had a certain level of analysis around um basic,
you know,
critical race theory and yet still love this kind of teaching and I'm like,
very concerned about it.
Yeah,
I think it's very concerning.
I think that's the thing when we're doing any of this kind of work is to really center analysis of power in it and look at how things are being used.
(33:56):
Who's saying what,
why are they saying it?
How are they saying it?
How is it then operating in that space or in the world?
Um Because I think we,
in terms of actual language for it,
it's tricky like we're finding the language for it.
And I think part of what we're finding language for is the level of like uh disconnection or grief or just alienation in our culture.
(34:19):
You know,
like this is something we're still finding language for,
to talk about with each other.
Um But I think,
yeah,
looking at like,
yeah,
when we,
when we're engaging in this is just like a constant analysis of like how power is operating in the situation is so important um for that and a sort of acknowledgement that it is endlessly complex,
(34:40):
you know,
that we're not going to suddenly find a settled answer like of like this is who I am and this is what I am and this is what I have a right to because I think that's one of the things is um it's like,
what does it mean to say this is my ancestry?
Therefore,
I can have this rather than like this is my ancestry.
Therefore,
it places me in this way and I'm interested in this or something,
(35:02):
you know.
Um and I think something for me um in this,
you know,
as somebody coming from England,
um where my ancestors have lived in the same area um of England,
fairly small area,
at least,
you know,
some of them,
quite a lot of them for like,
traceable for like a sort of 1000 years um in sort of one family tree and then quite possibly longer,
(35:28):
you know,
sort of probably longer than that.
Um And I'm not indigenous to that,
you know,
like the way that,
like,
we understand indigeneity and what that means in our world right now is not how I grew up,
you know,
I did not grow up um as part of the,
you just like connected to the land.
Um I grew up in a very alienated culture similar to the US,
(35:48):
you know.
Um And I think this idea that like if the sort of,
if people hadn't come to America and settled here,
it would have all been fine,
doesn't hold up,
you know,
if you're sort of doing the go back to Europe thing,
it's like,
ok,
well,
look at what England did,
you know,
it's like actually staying in the place where your ancestors are from,
isn't the answer,
(36:09):
you know,
like it isn't like the end of the story.
It's like we can see the same issues,
you know,
of like capitalism and domination and racism and um and whiteness,
you know,
existing very intensely in Europe and it was in the 16 hundreds and 17 hundreds.
OK.
So we had talked also about the purity culture that can go with it.
(36:32):
Can we bring in how this shows up in the body and our relationship to the body?
And um,
like,
quote unquote health,
which ever since I took your course on governable,
which I think honestly,
you know,
I feel very grateful that I got to take the course as a person who a works with a lot of people with chronic illness,
(36:54):
um particularly autoimmune disorders,
um and have for a long time also have that in my family and so support people both close and professionally.
But I think in that program and,
you know,
there was like dozens and dozens of people and then your mom and me,
(37:16):
but I just kept feeling a lot of kinship just being like,
wow,
we're like listening to Sophie talking about holding this face like,
so amazingly and I just felt like very kind of like sidled up beside your mom virtually because I was like,
I just feel like kind of like this very special little fly on the wall situation.
(37:36):
I'm getting to have.
That's like,
just like opening my heart so much.
But it,
it really after that I was,
I,
I'm still stumbling over the word health and I thought about it in a spiritual way even before that course about like wholeness and all this stuff.
And I'm just like,
I don't fucking know what is health like a anyway.
(37:58):
So I want to talk about ungovernable bodies.
But can you lead us from like,
so your course beyond the blood was anti fascist folklore,
ungovernable bodies come up.
And in many ways,
I see it as a continuation or an outgrowth or related.
It's like there's bridge material there about what happens in a fascistic society around health and wellness that,
(38:23):
that um is related to what you're teaching about in that other course.
Yeah.
No,
I think they already connected and I think that that health piece actually and that's another way that we see it really overlapping with like a of coaches is that um you know,
from the beginning of sort of fascist movements,
there's been this strong eugenic spread which was actually borrowed from the US and what was happening there um 150 years ago,
(38:47):
100 years ago.
Um But yeah,
that these ideas of like um health and purity and naturalness.
Um and this idea of like a sort of what a body should be and having that be a very sort of limited idea.
Um That is basically like a very,
(39:08):
I don't know,
strong,
never ill,
like,
like it's a completely made up category,
right?
But it's like white male body of like,
sort of this ideal.
Um And how fascism has gone to,
like,
extreme lengths to try and like,
enforce that ideal.
Um But how it can't ever completely do it.
(39:28):
And I think that's important to you when we're looking at these things of like,
these regimes of control around that is they're never fully successful because bodies are ungovernable,
you know,
they do fail,
they die,
right?
Like they just in terms of like everything like there's um so many different experiences happening that they actually can't be completely controlled.
But um and people resist,
(39:49):
people don't want to be controlled,
like people do all sorts of things to resist it.
Um And so yeah,
in ungovernable bodies,
it's like really exploring um how it came to be,
how we think of bodies in certain ways and why we value certain things like basically ableism.
Like why is it that certain bodies are seen as good and worthy of care and reward and of the means to live basically.
(40:13):
Um And some aren't what I loved about your course was it did get me thinking more about like,
what is health to me then?
Because I,
I realized like,
oh the,
the ableism,
there's certain things that are pretty obvious,
like anti aging,
you know,
like um age is,
that's like a thing where it's like,
oh,
(40:33):
yeah,
youth culture all those things we can see how in the fascistic culture,
there's this like reverence for age,
but it's like a very robust aging,
you know,
like to much room for aging young virile male bodies or like fertile women and saying about gender.
(40:53):
Like,
I think that's another thing that's important to really know is that fascism is like very strong on um rigid binary gender roles.
And I think one of the things that we're seeing right now um with like uh attacks on trans people and um just transphobia and like stuff like exploding so much.
I really see it as so part of this like fascist growth.
(41:17):
Um And so yeah,
prescribing really rigid gender roles for everybody and like a complete like not allowance of like trans um and non bina.
Um and also that thing around aging where it's like,
look what 50 looks like in a woman now.
And it's like,
really,
it's like,
OK,
JJ Lo doesn't look any different than she did when she was 25.
(41:38):
And that's what everybody and I'm like when I get a gray hair,
I'm so excited about it.
I want,
you know,
like,
and it really made me think,
you know,
I'm gonna share something.
So in the numinous network,
we had this um workshop series called RCCX Mapping.
Uh I can do this in a nutshell.
So RCCX is a um gene mutation where that,
(42:02):
that is,
it's a theory by Doctor Sharon mcgray.
That explains um multiple co inherited quote unquote rare diseases.
So it's kind of like,
essentially her research is showing like,
hey,
look,
if you have um alors down low syndrome and hypermobility,
there's like a very high chance that you're also gonna have psychiatric problems.
And it's uh certainly there's like um social reasons,
(42:26):
but she's looking at the uh genetic reasons.
And so here,
this is what our theory is about.
Anyway,
the long story short is so we were doing artistic expression around our CCX theory and trying to help us like process what our family history maps were like.
So,
and then by the fourth session,
I was like,
OK,
(42:47):
so I want a different vision of like aging and what health is and like in the ecosystem because part of our CCX theory is that you don't necessarily have to biologically inherit because um due to affinity and affiliation people with,
let's say sensory processing disorders or very sensitive nervous systems or chronic illness or pain,
(43:09):
et cetera,
um tend to hang out together and because we like vibe,
right?
And so therefore,
there's a higher incidence of procreating together as well.
And so the genetic inheritance goes further down anyway.
So I was like,
what is health that I'm trying to help my child to inherit?
(43:33):
Like if,
if chronic stress is what sets this off?
That's of course,
part of the theory is that you have this like um body primed for stress and the brain wired for danger.
And chronic stress sets off this gene mutation where multiple rare diseases will go off at once.
And,
and it's not just physiological like pots and MC A s and fibromyalgia and all that,
(43:53):
but also major mental health and mood disorders.
So how do I pass on different conditions to my child?
Considering um climate change,
considering the economy,
considering all this stuff.
And so literally,
I went back to Ungovernable bodies my notes and was like,
what does wellness mean to me?
(44:16):
And I came up with my um affirmations which is I want a robust body as I age.
Like I wanna be built like a brick shit house.
I wanna be like one of those crones like you,
you know,
you can,
that can like lift wood if possible or at least boss people around from my chair and like people will listen to me if possible.
(44:37):
I want pleasurable sensations in my body.
If possible.
I want to be comfortable with seasonal changes like inside and around me,
with my hair,
color and all that kind of stuff.
I wanna um influence and be influenced by my loved ones in positive ways with mutuality,
reciprocity,
um giving and receiving care and love.
(44:58):
I gotta tell you Sophie after taking on governable bodies,
I was like,
I don't actually fucking know what I want for health.
I like well,
because I don't know it's like unhooking from,
from all the ableism that I've internalized.
I,
I'm still left with these questions of like,
(45:19):
so what is,
what do I hope for?
What is the best I could hope for anyway.
So II I throw this back to you.
You created this course on governable bodies to unpack ableism.
It seemed very related to also unpacking all the like,
supremacy thinking and um capitalist thinking,
especially what are your hopes from ungovernable bodies?
(45:43):
What do you hope people are gonna leave that course with?
Yeah.
Well,
I guess like it's complicating some of these categories,
right?
Like even like what does it mean to have an idea of what health means like do is that useful to us um to even think about?
And what does that category like,
what does that category include?
(46:04):
And what does it exclude?
Who does it include?
Who does it exclude?
Um and therefore like is it politically useful or socially useful or like um to even be thinking that way?
And I think that sometimes categories like sick or disabled and stuff like are useful politically to understand that like in very broad strokes that there are these different experiences happening.
(46:26):
But I think when it comes down to it,
um they are so limited as to not be very useful,
but actually,
especially of conceiving of our own experiences.
Um And I think,
you know,
one of the things I think when I hear your desires for the future um is like,
you know,
as someone who,
like knows I will never be built like a brick shit house because my body is like a floppy fluid,
(46:50):
like hypermobile thing.
Um That I think there's a sort of part of the way that ableism like affects us,
I think is our imaginations of like,
what a good life is and that a good life must mean having a robust body when I'm older,
you know,
like,
like saying,
like as I age,
I want it to be like this because I think we've been taught that that's how you have a good life and you can be kind of independent,
(47:16):
less in need of others.
Um And yeah,
that,
that's useful to others,
more useful to um more able to like,
protect yourself like something.
Um And I think that something that's like in the wisdom of like sort of crip and sick like community and stuff is exploring all the different ways you can have a body in this world and what it takes to have those different bodies and experience joy and pleasure and connection and stuff like that.
(47:47):
Um And yeah,
not aspiring to certain body states as that's what we will have a good life.
Um Like,
I think,
you know,
people talk about how it's like people will often fear disability more than death,
you know,
like going through something and the idea of then having a life changing disability being worse.
And I think that's the result of living in a culture where like,
(48:09):
yeah,
your worth is bound up with what you can do.
Um,
and where we don't feel that we can necessarily rely on care from others.
And so a fear around,
like,
wanting to be,
like,
independent.
Yeah.
I mean,
ableism makes a lot of sense in a capitalist context.
Right.
Like,
you know,
the fear.
(48:29):
Right.
Yeah.
And I think,
and it really does and I think that's one of the reasons those sort of categories like capitalism and sort of like post and light ideologies love to categorize like that of like who's like,
well and who's not,
well,
and when really,
it's like people are having such a wide variety of experiences in their body that change over time for everyone,
you know,
that that is what's happening.
Um And I think as much as we can finding the language to like,
(48:53):
deepen our experience of what it's like to be in our bodies now and share those experiences with each other and find new pathways,
new ways of understanding it,
new ways of making connections and solidarity through those experiences.
I believe that builds a sort of um culture that will be making more room for those things for all of us when we're older.
(49:14):
You know,
and that thing when you're saying about passing on like genetic stuff to your son,
it's like,
I really see that as like a collective issue,
you know,
like when we're um on a planet that's struggling in the way it is and where the,
what's happening with like trees or waterways or the salmon or something.
Um,
(49:35):
that,
that's our collective body,
you know,
and the,
the things that we're working towards,
um,
always,
like I was gonna say,
it's not even like should contain that,
but they just do like any decisions we're making are part of a web that involves all of those things too.
So,
um I think in terms of what we're passing on,
(49:55):
it applies to everything.
Can I ask you a personal question about living sick?
Because people often ask me this and I'm like,
I don't have to grapple with this in a way.
It's like,
I'm not gonna give a good answer to this.
Um People often ask me from like a nervous system perspective or very often also from like a spiritual perspective in terms of like setting intentions or wanting to manifest things.
(50:22):
Like,
how do you hold acceptance and love for your body as it is and the sensations and experiences you're having while you're having them,
even if they're shitty and also hold a vision for potentially feeling better?
Do you see what I'm getting at where it's like,
(50:42):
how do you hold that tension of maybe I could improve or I maybe I could be well or,
you know,
like if you want to sort of,
I could be healthier when there's also a part of you that is kind of like,
and maybe this is like,
this is what this is and can I still experience joy and pleasure and fulfillment even though my body is in pain,
(51:04):
let's say,
I guess it's funny to me,
they don't seem um like opposed to each other in a way.
And I think this is where like the sort of anarchist way of thinking of like means and ends comes back to where it's like we're practicing in the moment what we want to exist in the future.
Um And so in terms of with my body,
it's like,
(51:25):
I do feel like I love my body,
like,
I don't have like anger towards my body.
I know a lot of other like second disabled people like sometimes do and that's totally valid.
And um but for me,
like,
I do feel like everything that happens is my body like sort of telling me something or,
you know,
it's like it needs something like when there's pain,
it like there's attention needed there and stuff.
(51:46):
Um And so I feel like intending to that,
like in responding to it,
in relating to those parts of myself that are like um struggling or something,
um that creates any possibility of the thing that might make it better quote unquote,
but I don't think of it like that,
but it's like,
um if I'm in pain,
(52:08):
my natural response is to try and stop it,
you know,
it feels like an alarm to,
like,
do something to address it and it's tricky,
you know,
because I'm in pain every day.
Like,
it's not something that is just an occasional thing that then I treat.
Um,
but it feels like just being in a long,
like,
apprenticeship to it,
to that relationship,
you know,
being with my body and its different expressions.
(52:29):
Um,
and because I see that like,
so,
yeah,
I have Sandler syndrome,
um,
which is like an inherited like connective tissue disorder.
So I've had it forever but it first started being like,
really painful for me when I was about 11.
Um which is when I also experienced significant trauma as a child.
And I think they're very related,
(52:52):
you know,
our CCX theory does too.
So great.
But guess what does she like has uh pots and anyway,
the doctor who created the theory can't carry it forward because she's so sick and couldn't even come on the podcast.
So it's like,
yeah,
anyway,
sorry,
just amplifying and affirming.
Yes.
(53:12):
Yeah.
No,
it's true.
And I feel like that.
Um in terms of me having like this very bendy body basically,
you know,
like everything's very flexible inside and out.
I often wonder like if I had been born in a different time,
a different place,
different culture and didn't have the same like traumas and stresses.
Um Would I be in pain with it?
(53:33):
I don't know,
I might just be like a river person who's flowy,
you know,
and it might be fine.
And so I think for me,
like,
I'm aware too of like how stress compounds my symptoms.
And so that's for me,
part of wanting to create um like a world that is like nurturing and caring and where there's not domination because I see that as one of the biggest like sort of,
(53:57):
you know,
problems in terms of what's happening to our bodies.
Um Yeah,
for me,
the lived experience of this makes me want to like care for myself and others and keep trying to create a world based in care.
Um So,
yeah,
they feel like the same thing.
Ok.
So the last question that I always ask every guest is,
(54:21):
how do you cope with grief and rage?
And I'm particularly interested in the context of what we're talking about living in a sick body or living in,
in a way that is trying to create the world that you want to have.
Like,
what about when you're tired and you're in pain?
You know,
how do you cope?
(54:42):
Yeah,
I think it's in different ways,
you know,
it's like different things in different moments.
But um I think for me and grief and rage,
like when I feel them,
it is like being with them and expressing them,
but not always.
Sometimes I'll like lay there and watch like five hours of TV or something.
If there's too much pain or too much on them sometimes I'll definitely choose numbing as a way to like,
(55:04):
regulate my nervous system.
But,
um,
but I think also just feeling so connected to,
yeah,
especially like plants and animals and people.
Um,
I feel like feeling very connected to like joy and beauty and laughing a lot and loving things.
Um,
(55:25):
makes it manageable if you know what I mean?
Like,
I feel like there's like an experience where I can be in like,
yeah,
deep grief or yeah,
too tired to do anything but um connecting with my cat.
If I'm too tired,
I'm just laying in bed and it's like,
I love,
my cat is a beautiful enough experience that it like is um being alive still feels like,
(55:48):
yeah,
beautiful and worthwhile or something.
I don't know how to explain it but it feels like not always being in like,
yeah,
grief and rage,
but connecting and I feel like I've,
as I've gotten older got sort of better and better at that of just like realizing that like all of the things that there are to be grieving and all of the things there are to be raging about.
Um I'm better resourced for all of that when I'm really nourished by connection and joy.
(56:16):
Um And so yeah,
that's really important to me.
Thank you for being on the show,
Sophie.
I am.
I have been so nourished by your classes.
I honestly can just show up and listen to you talk for a long time.
But like,
I know it's,
it's was wonderful to also hear other people sharing and have breakouts.
(56:37):
But um I really appreciated the way you held space.
And so I,
yeah,
I it's,
it's been really wonderful to have you on the show so we can share the conversation with others.
And I,
I strongly encourage people,
take you up on an opportunity to learn from you.
Anytime you put out your courses,
(56:58):
they've been truly life changing for me.
So thank you for your work.
Thank you so much,
Carmen.
Yeah,
I've loved having you in those classes today.
So,
yeah,
thank you.
And thank you for this too.
Friends.
You'll want to get on the waitlist for Sophie's next class,
whether it's ungovernable bodies or beyond the blood or radical.
Well,
tending,
I can tell you that it's going to be deep.
(57:20):
Each one has radically altered and expanded my thinking.
You will not regret it.
Go to Sophie malin.com and hover over the images to find more information or go to the show notes at Numinous podcast.com for links.
Listener.
Shout out this week,
goes to my friends listening in North Vancouver and in particular at Utopia Books uh in Upper Lonsdale,
(57:45):
one of the places I think I got my first ever oracle card deck there.
So thank you to all you who are sharing time with me.
Thanks to friends new in Ault listening in North Vancouver.
If you enjoyed the content of this episode.
Let me tell you,
you are going to love the spirited kitchen.
If you're interested in animism,
(58:06):
ancestral veneration,
seasonal activities,
um being in right relationship with the land and sitting with um complexity.
While also having a rich and nourishing devotional spiritual life,
man,
you should check out the pre orders,
you can buy them.
Uh anywhere you get books online,
(58:27):
the spirited kitchen recipes and rituals for the Wheel of the year is now available.
Until next time.
Take care.
The Numinous podcast with Carbon Spano.
Hi there and welcome to the Numinous podcast where we have interesting conversations with everyday folks about the Mystery of Life.
I'm your host,
Carmen Spagnola,
joining you from the lands of the Laquon speaking peoples,
(00:27):
the song.
He's in Esquimalt,
first nations recently known as Victoria BC Canada and my friends.
I'm so excited.
We are so lucky today,
Sophie Macklin joins us on the Numinous podcast.
You know,
when you have someone that you admire professionally very much and so first you friend them on Facebook and you follow them for a long time there and then you start kind of stalking them on Instagram and sort of wishing they would post more.
(00:58):
And then so then you have to like take their courses,
you take all their courses because you just want to hear them talk and then,
and then you start citing them constantly in your own work to the point where your clients and students have to take their courses in order to understand what you're saying.
That's what's happening right now.
(01:20):
I'm making everyone who's a listener of the podcast become a fan of Sophie Macklin.
If you aren't already.
I think if you've been in any of my courses,
you've been like,
man,
I really gotta take one of these courses that Sophie offers because Carmen's talking about them all the time.
Um So if you are just meeting Sophie Macklin for the first time on this show,
(01:41):
I'm so excited for you.
So,
Sophie is an anarchist mystic living on to the land near the L A river.
She's lived in California for like 15 years,
but she comes from Canterbury,
England.
She practices Brythonic polytheism,
anti fascism,
devotion to an animate world and anarchist living.
(02:03):
She specializes in topics related to anarchism,
mysticism,
radical history,
communication with the more and more than human world,
anti capitalism,
anti fascism,
reclaiming the commons,
anti ableism and exploring different ways of knowing.
I want to tell you that I chose her to be the first reader of the manuscript of my book,
(02:25):
The Spirited Kitchen.
And to be honest,
from the very earliest kernel of thought I had about even potentially writing a book like this.
She came to mind as the person I wanted to give me the first pass of honest feedback.
And I'm so grateful to her for being gracious and difficult about my shitty first draft where I wasn't articulating what I meant very well.
(02:49):
But also I still had some things to unpack in my own mind about what to valorize and how much and what not to in a book about ancestral veneration as a white settler under capitalism.
In a time of increasing fascism,
I knew there was nuance needed and also a certain kind of firmness and some boundaries at times so that my work couldn't be pressed into the service of white supremacy.
(03:20):
So I'm very grateful to Sophie for helping me see how I could improve my manuscript.
Anyway,
here we are now jamming on anarchy,
anti fascism,
ableism and ungovernable bodies.
Sophie.
I'm so glad you're here and I'm so excited for this conversation.
(03:42):
Please start us off with um telling us what identities do you lead with?
OK.
Yeah,
I'm so happy to be here with you too,
Carmen.
Um I guess kind of like everyone,
I feel like um my identity is something bigger than the categories that we have for them now.
Um And something that's always shifting in a relationship both with other human configurations and with um different times and the modern human world.
(04:14):
Um But in terms of kind of situating myself um in the current hierarchies of social organization that we live in.
Um I'm a white uh working class from a generationally poor family um person.
(04:34):
But within that,
I'm from England and so I was poor but living in a country that has um been practicing massive violent exploitation around the world for everyone accumulating wealth that way.
And so definitely benefited from things like the welfare state in a country.
Um Yeah,
built on colonization.
(04:55):
Um And I'm a queer fem,
this woman.
Um,
I'm disabled and sick and,
um,
a psychiatric survivor.
Um,
and an anarchist.
And that was important to me.
(05:15):
Um,
yeah,
I think they are the big ones.
So,
even just from your response,
I'm sure there are people who are already,
like,
wow.
So,
I know,
I,
you know,
whenever I've been in your classes and as I've observed what you share on social over the years,
(05:38):
like it,
I'm always curious,
like,
were you raised in a particularly politically informed household?
Like,
how did you become radicalized?
How did you know,
to even be an anarchist?
Like that?
That is fascinating with me.
So,
and are you comfortable with the term radicalized when I,
I,
like,
I don't,
I don't know if,
(05:58):
if that applies to you.
Yeah,
like,
I think it is a word that makes sense within the limits of language that we have for understanding these things right now.
Um But yeah,
for me,
it was something that felt.
So my family wasn't um particularly political.
Like I don't feel like I was raised um with that kind of like um analysis or sort of political stuff happening at home.
(06:23):
But like I said,
you know,
we were poor and um just,
I,
I guess for me it's something that's strange.
I feel like I was born like this.
Like,
I feel like when I was a little kid I was aware that things were not quite right and that I didn't understand why everyone else didn't think that,
like,
everyone mattered,
(06:44):
plants and animals mattered.
And um I was also just really struck by the levels of like different types of domination um and hierarchy.
Like I would be in school,
particularly,
like looking at how teachers wielded power arbitrarily or just um and always felt something in me really wanting to resist that.
(07:07):
Um And so,
yeah,
when I was like six,
like,
I became vegetarian because,
like,
I really cared about animals and um started doing little,
like activist projects.
I had a little briefcase full of like pamphlets and stuff when I was like seven.
And so,
um so I've just like,
always really cared a lot about this stuff,
but um I guess I didn't have the language around anarchy until I was older.
(07:32):
Um And sort of,
yeah,
went through,
I guess some classic kind of like,
um like in my teens,
like,
what might be considered more like liberal activism or sort of activist stuff,
just what was available.
Um And honestly,
a kind of like free party scene in England,
the kind of like rave culture stuff and protests and stuff that I feel like was a um a really vibrant subculture of kind of like illegality in a way,
(07:59):
like being um against the sort of rules and laws of our culture.
Um And then,
yeah,
I think I became self consciously an anarchist when I was like,
yeah,
late teens or 20 or something like that.
Hm.
I,
I don't know if this is the right if we still use this term.
But I feel like in England there is a strong tradition amongst the underclass,
(08:24):
if I can still call it that um of punk anarchy,
like to a certain extent it's youth culture.
But like you brought up the brave culture,
even Pink Floyd,
you know,
like this whole kind of like a long tradition of uh resistance really.
So maybe,
(08:45):
maybe that's sort of a thing lacking in my Canadian upbringing that makes me assume like,
how did you get politicized if not go to school?
But I think there is just a lot more culture of um class consciousness.
Um Maybe in,
in that,
that time and place.
What do you think?
Yeah,
(09:05):
I think there is definitely more like,
I live in California now and like,
there are definitely,
I think there is more like in England and probably when I was growing up than here but,
but not very much and I think more sort of um in other places but um like the subcultures I was part of was small,
you know,
like when I was finding the,
(09:26):
like I was a weirdo,
you know,
OK,
this wasn't like massive um movement.
This was like,
um yeah,
I was like finding the other kind of like freaks and weirdos and people who loved everything and cared about the forest.
Um So I think it was still pretty small in fringe.
(09:46):
Um But yeah,
but then did you just read a ton of books?
Did you go to university?
How did you come to be?
So um like,
articulate with your class analysis and how did you,
how did you come to understand like power and hierarchy in a,
(10:08):
in a really explicit way?
You know,
there are lots of people who have like lived experience of oppression and so they,
you know,
can develop um coping or,
or um adaptation strategies,
but not everybody can become a teacher of like,
what,
let's understand the analysis here of like what is actually going on and off the,
(10:28):
the sort of cultural critique you do?
Yeah.
So I guess it's been like a lifelong journey,
you know,
like,
I know that's a cliche but like,
I'm 37 now and it's been like a lot of things over that time.
Um But for me,
it really was like,
I was thinking a lot as a kid and writing quite a lot and thinking and talking and like,
I feel like a lot of my ideas really were developed there like young.
(10:51):
But um I also,
I dropped out of school when I was 14 and I think that was important.
And I think um my mom kind of supported me in that because she knew how much I like,
read and wanted to learn about the world.
And I was so like,
um passionate about that.
So I carried on uh yeah,
reading,
seeking people out,
(11:11):
seeking things out.
Um And then I did do a course to go to university.
Um But I was just there for a year and then like a year and a bit and then I dropped out.
Um and I've just carried on learning and I think also part of this analysis,
like in anarchist subcultures,
there's like a very robust,
like um practice of like,
(11:31):
experimenting with these things,
you know,
in lived reality and then reading things and talking about them with each other.
And it's almost like we all have like phd S in like,
like an aesthetics and,
you know,
like,
it really has been for me,
like um a constant engagement with like,
yeah,
reading but also practicing and embodying and feeling.
(11:53):
Um Yeah.
Really?
Really?
OK.
So this brings me to a question that uh you know,
I,
I had until probably taking um beyond the blood with you because,
you know,
like,
I,
I can like,
read stuff and look it up and Google it and kinda have a sense of it.
(12:14):
But actually,
I would love for you to share with listeners.
Like,
is there a difference between anarchy and anti fascism?
Like,
how would you define those two terms for people just beginning to learn about anarchism and anti anti fascism?
Yeah.
Um So,
yeah,
I do think they're different,
like,
I guess for me anarchy and anarchism is like a um like is working to all,
(12:42):
like living with an ethic of like non domination and non coercion in everything.
And so it's like a relational practice.
It's like a um a way of being in the world that applies to everything.
Um And yeah,
so I think,
um and sort of not,
(13:04):
I think it differs from like other sort of things that are sort of political ideologies or something where it's not about having like a 10 step plan for the future,
but really building the things we want to be building that might still exist in the future by creating them now and living it now.
Um So that's how I see anarchy.
And I think of anti fascism as,
(13:24):
you know,
it's more specific,
like it's against fascism.
And even though I think an anarchist would always be antifascists.
Antifascists aren't always anarchists.
And I think of anti fascism as like the practice of fighting fascism.
Um And so it might share some of those similar values that I just described for anarchy.
But I think um anti fascism is literally doing things to stop fascism,
(13:48):
um whatever that looks like,
which is many things.
But yeah.
Mhm So anarchy has this reputation as just being no rules,
no rules.
You don't listen to anyone,
you don't care,
fuck the government like it's that kind of thing.
But what you're describing seems to be much more centered around love and consent and things like that.
(14:11):
And so what would you say are some of the,
the,
like,
values that maybe,
I don't know,
it's like,
maybe people don't think of when they think of anarchy,
maybe they do think of a more,
um,
punk aesthetic and,
you know,
maybe even,
um,
at times,
like,
rough or violent or,
like,
destruction of property and things like that,
(14:32):
like,
you're describing something different where,
like,
everybody loves the forest and is having very consensual conversations around relationships and stuff.
Like,
yeah.
Yeah,
I think,
um I think it's like one of the ways that it's been um described by sort of dominant culture as this very narrow thing is to put people off basically,
(14:56):
you know,
and I think that that's,
um that's part of it.
Um And I think,
and I don't want to sort of um diminish the fact that,
you know,
anarchists do sometimes use violence or like,
do you know,
it,
it's like a multifaceted thing where people are willing to resist um oppression in all sorts of ways.
So it's not like completely other to that.
But,
um,
(15:17):
yeah,
I think it's um something that also where we've been raised and sort of indoctrinated so intensely into this idea of like what a peaceful stable society looks like,
um which basically is society that keeps its violence very hidden to a lot of like,
white middle class voters,
(15:38):
for example.
Um that is actually horrifically violent.
Um,
that has this semblance of order.
And so to think of something that makes that violence apparent is the thing that then gets called like chaos or like disorder.
Um But yeah,
it is often just making those tensions visible and trying to do something else.
(16:01):
Yeah.
So what were you noticing then in your various communities?
And like,
and in the social media sys uh ecosystem that prompted you to create your anti fascist folklore course uh beyond the blood.
Yeah.
So um it was a lot of things kind of over time and um for people who don't know that was like a class.
(16:25):
Yeah,
like looking at how like um especially like uh yeah,
white people,
especially in uh the US,
Canada,
Australia and New Zealand,
like um have been looking to European ancestry practices European folklore um in a way that's really exploded in the last few years that has been going on for a while.
Um And how that has started to overlap with a lot of uh fascist,
(16:49):
like outright fascist stuff.
And like,
well,
I'm thinking when I took your course,
I was like,
oh hashtags,
I just like,
it never occurred to me really,
like,
I don't really read hashtags I think of like,
oh,
that's what people are putting for the algorithm or whatever.
But I,
but then when I looked at some of the accounts that you recommended you were like,
(17:10):
and then here I,
what were some of the hashtags that you were,
like,
watch out for that one.
Yeah.
Well,
it was really interesting because,
like,
you'd see,
I'd see people I know liking things that are just like,
say polish traditional dress or something.
Some p,
like a woman in a polish dress or whatever.
And the hashtags would be like,
white is beautiful old,
(17:32):
like,
like,
not fucking around,
you know,
like really um explicit um stuff and just realizing that so much of that stuff that's kind of considered like,
sort of ethnic dress or like um is being heavily promoted um by white supremacists and white nationalists.
(17:53):
Um And so seeing that stuff and honestly,
in the sort of two or three years that I've been doing that class and working on it has grown exponentially,
like those accounts,
like the sort of really extreme accounts that are outright fascists that will literally have a post that's like fascism with like flowers and stuff like that.
That's why fascism is interesting or like um or just lots of,
(18:16):
yeah,
outright sort of white supremacist content.
Um Those accounts have grown significantly.
Um And their influence in their language has spread a lot too.
You can still see that in things that don't think of themselves as fascist.
Um Can we maybe I don't want to say exactly define fascism but maybe can we explain fascism and the relationship with white supremacy because they're not totally equivalent.
(18:43):
OK,
we can like Google it,
but essentially there's like a there's um a hierarchy of control and it's like absolute control and absolute power and it starts to bring in a purity ethic.
And so this is where we start to go from.
Like this is a political ideology about like who's in charge and who runs the country and how did they get installed there to what are the characteristics of the society that we have?
(19:12):
And it starts to become more of a cultural movement.
So I like this is because I think people might be surprised to think what fascism with pretty flowers and it's like,
yeah,
because fascism goes from being a political ideology about like power and how one obtains it and who gets to hold it and for how long and all of that and then starts to become a life way that is like a whole,
(19:40):
it's an identity like these should be different things,
right?
But essentially um can do you have any thoughts on,
on like just helping people understand?
Yeah.
Um It's funny,
it feels so big,
which is why I teach a class is six weeks long on it,
I think.
Um But I think that some of the things that,
(20:01):
yeah,
like you were saying the purity stuff is really um prevalent and interesting,
like this idea of like in a fascist society.
Um there's this idea of kind of unity,
like a cross class,
alliance of unity.
Um But it's always set in opposition to and other you know,
and there has to be some way that this,
(20:21):
like,
who's in is defined and we can see that,
you know,
obviously,
famously with kind of Nazi Germany and this idea of like aryans and stuff like that.
There's something I think is important about fascism.
I think that word has been,
it gets overused and used to mean something that's not fascism.
Like,
I think it gets used to mean just like something very controlling or something,
(20:43):
you know,
or like,
I know Feminazi sprung to mind,
you know,
just like,
or like when a government does something very um yeah,
controlling or brutal,
it gets called fascist when I think that's often downplaying the violence of liberalism,
you know,
I think often some of the things people are describing as fascist violence or just liberal violence.
(21:05):
Um And I think,
yeah,
something that's really important to recognize the fascism throughout time is that it has this like big social movement aspect with a lot of characteristics that are unique to it,
that it's not just a more extreme version of what we have now.
Um And so some of those things would be like a sort of strong charismatic leader,
(21:26):
um a real celebration of like traditional ideas of like masculinity um and power and domination and almost like a sort of fetishization of those things.
Um And this idea of traditionalism,
this idea of um creating a narrative that goes back through time of this great people.
Um and kind of going back to it,
(21:48):
which is one of the ways that overlaps a lot with ancestry stuff that all fascist movements have done this,
like,
appealing to this,
like heroic past that we can like connect with and then have this um like go back to a more like pure essential culture.
Um And very much based in sort of the natural order of things that fascism will make appeals to kind of like what natural man is and what like um yeah,
(22:16):
this idea around sort of purity and those who are considered not to fit into that needing to be like eliminated or destroyed um or changed.
So this is like how you go from like cottage core,
your feet to like,
oh it's this like old tiny vintage,
(22:36):
like we're going back to find our ancestral lineage and our roots and like,
oh,
this is the traditional dress and then like next thing you know,
it,
it's like this versus that and we claim this land and we claim this,
this is our space and there like then this like entitlement purity,
other thing kind of happens.
(22:58):
The next thing you know,
there's like,
hashtag white is beautiful at the bottom of your Yeah.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And I think that is an important thing like that.
Um the ways that kind of blood and soil ideologies overlap with a lot of things that people I know.
And you know,
you know,
sort of like a social subcultures or whatever um are interested in,
of like connection to land and being meant to place and ancestry that these are ideas that are very um popular also with fascists.
(23:27):
Um And have been always,
and then it's interesting to see how that has like grown and how it's adapted that um like,
as well as these,
like,
you know,
fascist states that have existed in the past,
there have been these like fascist currents fas movements.
Um And that a lot of the work they've done has been deliberately in the kind of cultural sphere because after world war,
(23:48):
I i it's hard to be like,
I'm a fascist and we're organizing for fascism,
you know,
and so it was more like in music or art or um publishing and um these different ways that um they've spread their influence and normalized ideas that might seem abhorrent if you mix them with certain things.
(24:09):
Um But have actually been very sort of successful and I think we're seeing the fruits of a lot of that now.
Um And yeah,
I think for a lot of people who are um connecting with like uh different European traditions or something.
For example,
if you look up on like youtube feels especially um intense with this,
like a Scottish folk song on youtube and then look at the comments and I would sort of stand by saying you could look up any Scottish folk song and look at the comments for this and you'll see a lot of people um saying things about like often Americans and stuff talking about like Whiteness or like Scottish heritage um as something that needs to be like preserved,
(24:51):
sort of anti immigrant sentiment.
Um And really idealizing this idea of like a thin white woman in a long dress,
like in the highlands,
sing a song or something as this romantic image of like how it was and what we need to get back to and we need to get rid of all this like mess like around it.
Um And so you can see how it's so influential where it's like if people are just looking up certain things that,
(25:14):
that's what they're coming across.
Um And yeah,
people are like a lot of people in these kind of fascist and fascist adjacent movements are like doing rituals every solstice,
you know,
right now and um on the full moons and new moons and um their Instagram accounts look like these beautiful rituals and um to the old gods.
(25:35):
And um if you don't know,
sometimes you won't know,
you know,
when you're first looking at it.
Um but those ideas are kind of being spread through that.
Um Well,
you're speaking to that notion too of like kind of creating a sense of we've lost something.
And so now we have to preserve this thing.
(25:57):
And so there's this like hyper um protective mode of like,
yeah,
we have to preserve and there's like,
the stuff about authenticity and all of that and it's,
like,
never messy.
Whereas,
like,
in reality it's like,
yeah,
it's very messy.
It's very,
um,
disconnected.
(26:17):
There's hardly anything that hasn't been kind of a fairly recent in,
you know,
invention of,
like,
for instance,
you about the Scottish revival of,
like,
the late 18 hundreds,
early 19 hundreds,
like,
super recent?
Right.
So,
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No,
I think that's really true that a lot of the stuff that um the ways that I've seen people kind of accidentally wander into those kind of like uh pathway on those pathways is that idea of looking for these like pure traditions.
(26:48):
And um also this idea of like uh nations,
states,
like Nations of Europe.
Um And I think people who I know who are sort of anti racist,
you know,
consider themselves to be anti racist white people have,
you know,
taken DNA tests and tried to find out who their ancestors are so that then they know which practices they can draw on so as not to appropriate from like indigenous cultures and stuff,
(27:14):
which I think is a great important thing not to do and a great intention.
Um But I think a lot of what that's looked like is this uh ramification of these national identities that didn't even exist in prehistory where,
but where it's just like something from the 17 hundreds is suddenly being seen as the place to find belonging in and that feeds very nicely into these kind of nationalist.
(27:38):
Um And then in the US sort of like white nationalist um ideologies and like with that,
I think this um idea that I think a lot of people have been pursuing of like,
who are you,
who were you before?
You were white or whatever?
You know,
I feel like it's been a popular question in subcultures I'm connected to.
Um And I think it's led to some dangerous places.
(28:01):
Like,
I think it's um what the answer has often come back as is like,
I was German and Danish and Irish or something.
And that's where my family's from.
Um Rather than sitting with the very complex thing that we are white.
Um And that the nation identity isn't actually any better like that.
(28:22):
These are the nations that have like,
colonized the world,
like thrived on violence.
Um And again,
I feel like a lot of the sort of far,
right,
ancestry groups are just ready to sort of scoop people up who are seeking um that kind of thing.
100%.
I see that a lot when people are following or kind of talking about Celtic.
And I'm always like,
(28:43):
what do you mean,
like,
where are we talking about?
When are we talking about it?
Like we're talking about a language group,
are we talking about?
Like,
so that does all I that's like one place with like looking at different hashtags where,
yeah,
very quickly.
Yeah.
Yeah,
(29:03):
I'll be following some.
I,
I'm on tiktok now,
just started on the Tik Tok.
And so,
yeah,
I don't feel like it's so fun,
but I'm just stumbling around,
don't really understand the culture of it and like,
it feels much more like being just like having a fire hose,
kind of like sprayed on you of like things like you're not really trying to follow.
But I was shocked,
(29:23):
I tell you at how many times I like,
oh,
I,
OK,
here's this creator.
I'm seeing more than once and spending time on their videos and they're talking about,
yeah,
let's say Scottish or like Celtic heritage.
Sometimes they're Scottish,
sometimes they're American,
sometimes they're,
you know,
wherever and they'll,
they'll be like little tiny phrases thrown out like I'm indigenous to this land.
(29:47):
I earned it and I'm like,
whoa,
wait,
whoa,
wait,
like what you just said,
what,
what are you saying?
And then,
and so it like,
starts off pretty good and then something and then like,
I don't know,
it gets like a little messy and the next thing you know,
I'm like,
oh,
I,
yeah,
I have wandered into a back room but I do not want to be like,
(30:10):
I get out.
Yeah.
And I think it's really,
I think that's actually a great example of that thing about,
um,
the word indigenous and this idea of like European indigeneity that is like a complete appropriation of indigenous struggle um like here in South Island and other places.
But um and that was something that was deliberate,
like you can kind of trace that there's like,
(30:32):
um I don't know if you know the British National Party,
like a far right political party,
they were like in England.
Um And their leader at the time was Nick Griffin.
And he was really pushing this thing about English,
like indigenous Britons,
indigenous English people um as an as an anti immigration stance.
(30:54):
Um And this idea really spread with these kind of like,
far right,
white nationalist types to talk about this idea of European indigeneity um as this thing to be protected,
you know,
because it's really just like appropriating like a lot of the language of the struggle of like indigenous people.
Um And then you see people now using that,
(31:14):
like who I think would not consider themselves to be um like,
oh very much,
very much and are very much trying to find language that is respectful about.
I'm trying to do ancestral veneration within my white lineages and trying to think about being indigenous to what land.
And uh yeah,
I was leading um a somatic session and I said something about like,
(31:38):
we don't know what somatics were like for white people and how,
you know,
like,
I don't know what,
what like indigenous highlanders of my uh lineage would do because they've been displaced,
not just for the past 3,
400.
But like,
since the romance came,
like,
I don't know,
like,
I have no idea.
(31:59):
Right.
And so,
so,
and then I kind of had to backtrack afterwards and be like,
ok,
well,
wait a second not to say.
And now as a white person,
I'm more bereft than indigenous people in island.
You know,
like,
it's just like,
wow,
we just do not have the language for like,
what is it?
I'm trying to point to which is like a person who is of a place.
(32:21):
Oh my gosh,
can I tell you another story?
This is a second hand story that I just heard of a friend.
And she was at an event that was mostly white people and there was an elder who was talking about her mixed race heritage and um but very much sharing kind of like teachings of indigenous Turtle Island teachings.
(32:49):
And in it,
she was asking how many generations people had lived,
their,
their,
their ancestors had been in what we call North America.
And then like,
basically made an affirmative statement to them about being of the land if they'd been there for seven generations.
And I gasped,
I like jumped back in my chair and was like,
(33:12):
no,
she did.
So even like not having been there,
I'm like,
oh wow,
is this ever going to be manipulated?
Contorted,
weaponized,
used as defense?
Like I could,
I,
I just,
I can see how so dangerous.
This is and everybody in that room,
(33:32):
I'm sure had a certain level of analysis around um basic,
you know,
critical race theory and yet still love this kind of teaching and I'm like,
very concerned about it.
Yeah,
I think it's very concerning.
I think that's the thing when we're doing any of this kind of work is to really center analysis of power in it and look at how things are being used.
(33:56):
Who's saying what,
why are they saying it?
How are they saying it?
How is it then operating in that space or in the world?
Um Because I think we,
in terms of actual language for it,
it's tricky like we're finding the language for it.
And I think part of what we're finding language for is the level of like uh disconnection or grief or just alienation in our culture.
(34:19):
You know,
like this is something we're still finding language for,
to talk about with each other.
Um But I think,
yeah,
looking at like,
yeah,
when we,
when we're engaging in this is just like a constant analysis of like how power is operating in the situation is so important um for that and a sort of acknowledgement that it is endlessly complex,
(34:40):
you know,
that we're not going to suddenly find a settled answer like of like this is who I am and this is what I am and this is what I have a right to because I think that's one of the things is um it's like,
what does it mean to say this is my ancestry?
Therefore,
I can have this rather than like this is my ancestry.
Therefore,
it places me in this way and I'm interested in this or something,
(35:02):
you know.
Um and I think something for me um in this,
you know,
as somebody coming from England,
um where my ancestors have lived in the same area um of England,
fairly small area,
at least,
you know,
some of them,
quite a lot of them for like,
traceable for like a sort of 1000 years um in sort of one family tree and then quite possibly longer,
(35:28):
you know,
sort of probably longer than that.
Um And I'm not indigenous to that,
you know,
like the way that,
like,
we understand indigeneity and what that means in our world right now is not how I grew up,
you know,
I did not grow up um as part of the,
you just like connected to the land.
Um I grew up in a very alienated culture similar to the US,
(35:48):
you know.
Um And I think this idea that like if the sort of,
if people hadn't come to America and settled here,
it would have all been fine,
doesn't hold up,
you know,
if you're sort of doing the go back to Europe thing,
it's like,
ok,
well,
look at what England did,
you know,
it's like actually staying in the place where your ancestors are from,
isn't the answer,
(36:09):
you know,
like it isn't like the end of the story.
It's like we can see the same issues,
you know,
of like capitalism and domination and racism and um and whiteness,
you know,
existing very intensely in Europe and it was in the 16 hundreds and 17 hundreds.
OK.
So we had talked also about the purity culture that can go with it.
(36:32):
Can we bring in how this shows up in the body and our relationship to the body?
And um,
like,
quote unquote health,
which ever since I took your course on governable,
which I think honestly,
you know,
I feel very grateful that I got to take the course as a person who a works with a lot of people with chronic illness,
(36:54):
um particularly autoimmune disorders,
um and have for a long time also have that in my family and so support people both close and professionally.
But I think in that program and,
you know,
there was like dozens and dozens of people and then your mom and me,
(37:16):
but I just kept feeling a lot of kinship just being like,
wow,
we're like listening to Sophie talking about holding this face like,
so amazingly and I just felt like very kind of like sidled up beside your mom virtually because I was like,
I just feel like kind of like this very special little fly on the wall situation.
(37:36):
I'm getting to have.
That's like,
just like opening my heart so much.
But it,
it really after that I was,
I,
I'm still stumbling over the word health and I thought about it in a spiritual way even before that course about like wholeness and all this stuff.
And I'm just like,
I don't fucking know what is health like a anyway.
(37:58):
So I want to talk about ungovernable bodies.
But can you lead us from like,
so your course beyond the blood was anti fascist folklore,
ungovernable bodies come up.
And in many ways,
I see it as a continuation or an outgrowth or related.
It's like there's bridge material there about what happens in a fascistic society around health and wellness that,
(38:23):
that um is related to what you're teaching about in that other course.
Yeah.
No,
I think they already connected and I think that that health piece actually and that's another way that we see it really overlapping with like a of coaches is that um you know,
from the beginning of sort of fascist movements,
there's been this strong eugenic spread which was actually borrowed from the US and what was happening there um 150 years ago,
(38:47):
100 years ago.
Um But yeah,
that these ideas of like um health and purity and naturalness.
Um and this idea of like a sort of what a body should be and having that be a very sort of limited idea.
Um That is basically like a very,
(39:08):
I don't know,
strong,
never ill,
like,
like it's a completely made up category,
right?
But it's like white male body of like,
sort of this ideal.
Um And how fascism has gone to,
like,
extreme lengths to try and like,
enforce that ideal.
Um But how it can't ever completely do it.
(39:28):
And I think that's important to you when we're looking at these things of like,
these regimes of control around that is they're never fully successful because bodies are ungovernable,
you know,
they do fail,
they die,
right?
Like they just in terms of like everything like there's um so many different experiences happening that they actually can't be completely controlled.
But um and people resist,
(39:49):
people don't want to be controlled,
like people do all sorts of things to resist it.
Um And so yeah,
in ungovernable bodies,
it's like really exploring um how it came to be,
how we think of bodies in certain ways and why we value certain things like basically ableism.
Like why is it that certain bodies are seen as good and worthy of care and reward and of the means to live basically.
(40:13):
Um And some aren't what I loved about your course was it did get me thinking more about like,
what is health to me then?
Because I,
I realized like,
oh the,
the ableism,
there's certain things that are pretty obvious,
like anti aging,
you know,
like um age is,
that's like a thing where it's like,
oh,
(40:33):
yeah,
youth culture all those things we can see how in the fascistic culture,
there's this like reverence for age,
but it's like a very robust aging,
you know,
like to much room for aging young virile male bodies or like fertile women and saying about gender.
(40:53):
Like,
I think that's another thing that's important to really know is that fascism is like very strong on um rigid binary gender roles.
And I think one of the things that we're seeing right now um with like uh attacks on trans people and um just transphobia and like stuff like exploding so much.
I really see it as so part of this like fascist growth.
(41:17):
Um And so yeah,
prescribing really rigid gender roles for everybody and like a complete like not allowance of like trans um and non bina.
Um and also that thing around aging where it's like,
look what 50 looks like in a woman now.
And it's like,
really,
it's like,
OK,
JJ Lo doesn't look any different than she did when she was 25.
(41:38):
And that's what everybody and I'm like when I get a gray hair,
I'm so excited about it.
I want,
you know,
like,
and it really made me think,
you know,
I'm gonna share something.
So in the numinous network,
we had this um workshop series called RCCX Mapping.
Uh I can do this in a nutshell.
So RCCX is a um gene mutation where that,
(42:02):
that is,
it's a theory by Doctor Sharon mcgray.
That explains um multiple co inherited quote unquote rare diseases.
So it's kind of like,
essentially her research is showing like,
hey,
look,
if you have um alors down low syndrome and hypermobility,
there's like a very high chance that you're also gonna have psychiatric problems.
And it's uh certainly there's like um social reasons,
(42:26):
but she's looking at the uh genetic reasons.
And so here,
this is what our theory is about.
Anyway,
the long story short is so we were doing artistic expression around our CCX theory and trying to help us like process what our family history maps were like.
So,
and then by the fourth session,
I was like,
OK,
(42:47):
so I want a different vision of like aging and what health is and like in the ecosystem because part of our CCX theory is that you don't necessarily have to biologically inherit because um due to affinity and affiliation people with,
let's say sensory processing disorders or very sensitive nervous systems or chronic illness or pain,
(43:09):
et cetera,
um tend to hang out together and because we like vibe,
right?
And so therefore,
there's a higher incidence of procreating together as well.
And so the genetic inheritance goes further down anyway.
So I was like,
what is health that I'm trying to help my child to inherit?
(43:33):
Like if,
if chronic stress is what sets this off?
That's of course,
part of the theory is that you have this like um body primed for stress and the brain wired for danger.
And chronic stress sets off this gene mutation where multiple rare diseases will go off at once.
And,
and it's not just physiological like pots and MC A s and fibromyalgia and all that,
(43:53):
but also major mental health and mood disorders.
So how do I pass on different conditions to my child?
Considering um climate change,
considering the economy,
considering all this stuff.
And so literally,
I went back to Ungovernable bodies my notes and was like,
what does wellness mean to me?
(44:16):
And I came up with my um affirmations which is I want a robust body as I age.
Like I wanna be built like a brick shit house.
I wanna be like one of those crones like you,
you know,
you can,
that can like lift wood if possible or at least boss people around from my chair and like people will listen to me if possible.
(44:37):
I want pleasurable sensations in my body.
If possible.
I want to be comfortable with seasonal changes like inside and around me,
with my hair,
color and all that kind of stuff.
I wanna um influence and be influenced by my loved ones in positive ways with mutuality,
reciprocity,
um giving and receiving care and love.
(44:58):
I gotta tell you Sophie after taking on governable bodies,
I was like,
I don't actually fucking know what I want for health.
I like well,
because I don't know it's like unhooking from,
from all the ableism that I've internalized.
I,
I'm still left with these questions of like,
(45:19):
so what is,
what do I hope for?
What is the best I could hope for anyway.
So II I throw this back to you.
You created this course on governable bodies to unpack ableism.
It seemed very related to also unpacking all the like,
supremacy thinking and um capitalist thinking,
especially what are your hopes from ungovernable bodies?
(45:43):
What do you hope people are gonna leave that course with?
Yeah.
Well,
I guess like it's complicating some of these categories,
right?
Like even like what does it mean to have an idea of what health means like do is that useful to us um to even think about?
And what does that category like,
what does that category include?
(46:04):
And what does it exclude?
Who does it include?
Who does it exclude?
Um and therefore like is it politically useful or socially useful or like um to even be thinking that way?
And I think that sometimes categories like sick or disabled and stuff like are useful politically to understand that like in very broad strokes that there are these different experiences happening.
(46:26):
But I think when it comes down to it,
um they are so limited as to not be very useful,
but actually,
especially of conceiving of our own experiences.
Um And I think,
you know,
one of the things I think when I hear your desires for the future um is like,
you know,
as someone who,
like knows I will never be built like a brick shit house because my body is like a floppy fluid,
(46:50):
like hypermobile thing.
Um That I think there's a sort of part of the way that ableism like affects us,
I think is our imaginations of like,
what a good life is and that a good life must mean having a robust body when I'm older,
you know,
like,
like saying,
like as I age,
I want it to be like this because I think we've been taught that that's how you have a good life and you can be kind of independent,
(47:16):
less in need of others.
Um And yeah,
that,
that's useful to others,
more useful to um more able to like,
protect yourself like something.
Um And I think that something that's like in the wisdom of like sort of crip and sick like community and stuff is exploring all the different ways you can have a body in this world and what it takes to have those different bodies and experience joy and pleasure and connection and stuff like that.
(47:47):
Um And yeah,
not aspiring to certain body states as that's what we will have a good life.
Um Like,
I think,
you know,
people talk about how it's like people will often fear disability more than death,
you know,
like going through something and the idea of then having a life changing disability being worse.
And I think that's the result of living in a culture where like,
(48:09):
yeah,
your worth is bound up with what you can do.
Um,
and where we don't feel that we can necessarily rely on care from others.
And so a fear around,
like,
wanting to be,
like,
independent.
Yeah.
I mean,
ableism makes a lot of sense in a capitalist context.
Right.
Like,
you know,
the fear.
(48:29):
Right.
Yeah.
And I think,
and it really does and I think that's one of the reasons those sort of categories like capitalism and sort of like post and light ideologies love to categorize like that of like who's like,
well and who's not,
well,
and when really,
it's like people are having such a wide variety of experiences in their body that change over time for everyone,
you know,
that that is what's happening.
Um And I think as much as we can finding the language to like,
(48:53):
deepen our experience of what it's like to be in our bodies now and share those experiences with each other and find new pathways,
new ways of understanding it,
new ways of making connections and solidarity through those experiences.
I believe that builds a sort of um culture that will be making more room for those things for all of us when we're older.
(49:14):
You know,
and that thing when you're saying about passing on like genetic stuff to your son,
it's like,
I really see that as like a collective issue,
you know,
like when we're um on a planet that's struggling in the way it is and where the,
what's happening with like trees or waterways or the salmon or something.
Um,
(49:35):
that,
that's our collective body,
you know,
and the,
the things that we're working towards,
um,
always,
like I was gonna say,
it's not even like should contain that,
but they just do like any decisions we're making are part of a web that involves all of those things too.
So,
um I think in terms of what we're passing on,
(49:55):
it applies to everything.
Can I ask you a personal question about living sick?
Because people often ask me this and I'm like,
I don't have to grapple with this in a way.
It's like,
I'm not gonna give a good answer to this.
Um People often ask me from like a nervous system perspective or very often also from like a spiritual perspective in terms of like setting intentions or wanting to manifest things.
(50:22):
Like,
how do you hold acceptance and love for your body as it is and the sensations and experiences you're having while you're having them,
even if they're shitty and also hold a vision for potentially feeling better?
Do you see what I'm getting at where it's like,
(50:42):
how do you hold that tension of maybe I could improve or I maybe I could be well or,
you know,
like if you want to sort of,
I could be healthier when there's also a part of you that is kind of like,
and maybe this is like,
this is what this is and can I still experience joy and pleasure and fulfillment even though my body is in pain,
(51:04):
let's say,
I guess it's funny to me,
they don't seem um like opposed to each other in a way.
And I think this is where like the sort of anarchist way of thinking of like means and ends comes back to where it's like we're practicing in the moment what we want to exist in the future.
Um And so in terms of with my body,
it's like,
(51:25):
I do feel like I love my body,
like,
I don't have like anger towards my body.
I know a lot of other like second disabled people like sometimes do and that's totally valid.
And um but for me,
like,
I do feel like everything that happens is my body like sort of telling me something or,
you know,
it's like it needs something like when there's pain,
it like there's attention needed there and stuff.
(51:46):
Um And so I feel like intending to that,
like in responding to it,
in relating to those parts of myself that are like um struggling or something,
um that creates any possibility of the thing that might make it better quote unquote,
but I don't think of it like that,
but it's like,
um if I'm in pain,
(52:08):
my natural response is to try and stop it,
you know,
it feels like an alarm to,
like,
do something to address it and it's tricky,
you know,
because I'm in pain every day.
Like,
it's not something that is just an occasional thing that then I treat.
Um,
but it feels like just being in a long,
like,
apprenticeship to it,
to that relationship,
you know,
being with my body and its different expressions.
(52:29):
Um,
and because I see that like,
so,
yeah,
I have Sandler syndrome,
um,
which is like an inherited like connective tissue disorder.
So I've had it forever but it first started being like,
really painful for me when I was about 11.
Um which is when I also experienced significant trauma as a child.
And I think they're very related,
(52:52):
you know,
our CCX theory does too.
So great.
But guess what does she like has uh pots and anyway,
the doctor who created the theory can't carry it forward because she's so sick and couldn't even come on the podcast.
So it's like,
yeah,
anyway,
sorry,
just amplifying and affirming.
Yes.
(53:12):
Yeah.
No,
it's true.
And I feel like that.
Um in terms of me having like this very bendy body basically,
you know,
like everything's very flexible inside and out.
I often wonder like if I had been born in a different time,
a different place,
different culture and didn't have the same like traumas and stresses.
Um Would I be in pain with it?
(53:33):
I don't know,
I might just be like a river person who's flowy,
you know,
and it might be fine.
And so I think for me,
like,
I'm aware too of like how stress compounds my symptoms.
And so that's for me,
part of wanting to create um like a world that is like nurturing and caring and where there's not domination because I see that as one of the biggest like sort of,
(53:57):
you know,
problems in terms of what's happening to our bodies.
Um Yeah,
for me,
the lived experience of this makes me want to like care for myself and others and keep trying to create a world based in care.
Um So,
yeah,
they feel like the same thing.
Ok.
So the last question that I always ask every guest is,
(54:21):
how do you cope with grief and rage?
And I'm particularly interested in the context of what we're talking about living in a sick body or living in,
in a way that is trying to create the world that you want to have.
Like,
what about when you're tired and you're in pain?
You know,
how do you cope?
(54:42):
Yeah,
I think it's in different ways,
you know,
it's like different things in different moments.
But um I think for me and grief and rage,
like when I feel them,
it is like being with them and expressing them,
but not always.
Sometimes I'll like lay there and watch like five hours of TV or something.
If there's too much pain or too much on them sometimes I'll definitely choose numbing as a way to like,
(55:04):
regulate my nervous system.
But,
um,
but I think also just feeling so connected to,
yeah,
especially like plants and animals and people.
Um,
I feel like feeling very connected to like joy and beauty and laughing a lot and loving things.
Um,
(55:25):
makes it manageable if you know what I mean?
Like,
I feel like there's like an experience where I can be in like,
yeah,
deep grief or yeah,
too tired to do anything but um connecting with my cat.
If I'm too tired,
I'm just laying in bed and it's like,
I love,
my cat is a beautiful enough experience that it like is um being alive still feels like,
(55:48):
yeah,
beautiful and worthwhile or something.
I don't know how to explain it but it feels like not always being in like,
yeah,
grief and rage,
but connecting and I feel like I've,
as I've gotten older got sort of better and better at that of just like realizing that like all of the things that there are to be grieving and all of the things there are to be raging about.
Um I'm better resourced for all of that when I'm really nourished by connection and joy.
(56:16):
Um And so yeah,
that's really important to me.
Thank you for being on the show,
Sophie.
I am.
I have been so nourished by your classes.
I honestly can just show up and listen to you talk for a long time.
But like,
I know it's,
it's was wonderful to also hear other people sharing and have breakouts.
(56:37):
But um I really appreciated the way you held space.
And so I,
yeah,
I it's,
it's been really wonderful to have you on the show so we can share the conversation with others.
And I,
I strongly encourage people,
take you up on an opportunity to learn from you.
Anytime you put out your courses,
(56:58):
they've been truly life changing for me.
So thank you for your work.
Thank you so much,
Carmen.
Yeah,
I've loved having you in those classes today.
So,
yeah,
thank you.
And thank you for this too.
Friends.
You'll want to get on the waitlist for Sophie's next class,
whether it's ungovernable bodies or beyond the blood or radical.
Well,
tending,
I can tell you that it's going to be deep.
(57:20):
Each one has radically altered and expanded my thinking.
You will not regret it.
Go to Sophie malin.com and hover over the images to find more information or go to the show notes at Numinous podcast.com for links.
Listener.
Shout out this week,
goes to my friends listening in North Vancouver and in particular at Utopia Books uh in Upper Lonsdale,
(57:45):
one of the places I think I got my first ever oracle card deck there.
So thank you to all you who are sharing time with me.
Thanks to friends new in Ault listening in North Vancouver.
If you enjoyed the content of this episode.
Let me tell you,
you are going to love the spirited kitchen.
If you're interested in animism,
(58:06):
ancestral veneration,
seasonal activities,
um being in right relationship with the land and sitting with um complexity.
While also having a rich and nourishing devotional spiritual life,
man,
you should check out the pre orders,
you can buy them.
Uh anywhere you get books online,
(58:27):
the spirited kitchen recipes and rituals for the Wheel of the year is now available.
Until next time.
Take care.
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